More Bad News for Russia

[lordtiberius]

Except Russia has a gold mine in the Kolyma and lots of oil.  If it developed a real economy built on human capital, it could compete with Western or Oriental economies.  Instead it is a gun running mafia state with a gas station that is the aggressor in several small regional wars.  This fact Novorossiya scum ignore while blovaiting imaginary offenses the USA committed.  Odd.

[sleepycat]

Oh dear! Looks like they are running out of funds to do corporate welfare in Putinland...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/business/dealbook/in-russia-the-well-for-corporate-bailouts-might-run-dry.html?_r=1

 

[AkMike]

Now would be the time to hit them hard with the SWIFT Hammer!  

[mendeleyev]

Neville:

Slowly cutting Russia out more and more is what appears to be happening. 

Actually quite the opposite. Russia had been included in recent years in the WTO (thanks by the way to the USA), had been invited to the G8 (thanks to the USA), and trade had increased dramatically between Russia and the USA. Meanwhile the USA was paying for cleanup of Russia's nuke waste and old chemical plants.

In 2012, the last year for which figures are available, Russia accepted USA foreign aid to the tune of almost $444 million dollars. Those funds were paid to Russia for projects to improve Russian medical infrastructure, improve educational facilities, AIDS prevention and environment cleanup projects. Most Russians are unaware of those figures, but they are more likely to know about the $29 million the USA granted to Russian (legally registered) human rights groups.

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to exactly how Russia was slowly being cut out?

[The Natural]

In 2012, the last year for which figures are available, Russia accepted USA foreign aid to the tune of almost $444 million dollars. Those funds were paid to Russia for projects to improve Russian medical infrastructure, improve educational facilities, AIDS prevention and environment cleanup projects. Most Russians are unaware of those figures, but they are more likely to know about the $29 million the USA granted to Russian (legally registered) human rights groups.

Several countries has supported work in Russia on securing Nuclear Waste from submarines from the Soviet times. Since 1995 Norway has spent over 200 million US dollars on this work. Close to Our border on the Andreijev Bay is a base considered one of the most Dangerous Places on Earth With Nuclear Waste. It's estimated to cost 1,12 billion Euros to clean up the mess and the environmental organization Bellona fear this work will stop because of the current political situation between the west and Russia.
This area is however not subject to western sanctions. It's in Our interest to get it cleaned up and secured.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Bellona-frykter-at-Ukraina-krisen-bremser-atomopprydding-i-nord-7902611.html

[Muzh]

I thought the same thing as the article you quoted...Boethius disagrees with me on that point.    Although the Russians had a contract to stay there to 2042...25 years goes quick, just think of the how fast the last 25 went...and after that 25 years was up, they could have easily been left out in the cold without their ports as NATO might have moved in by then....they were taking no chances regarding what they felt was important to their security. 


Fathertime!

Twenty-five years?


Gee, don't you think that 25 years would be enough time for a new generation to take over these Soviet relics and start a more civilized society?

[lordtiberius]

I wish

[Muzh]

Who cares what you wish.

[fathertime]

Neville:

Actually quite the opposite. Russia had been included in recent years in the WTO (thanks by the way to the USA), had been invited to the G8 (thanks to the USA), and trade had increased dramatically between Russia and the USA. Meanwhile the USA was paying for cleanup of Russia's nuke waste and old chemical plants.

In 2012, the last year for which figures are available, Russia accepted USA foreign aid to the tune of almost $444 million dollars. Those funds were paid to Russia for projects to improve Russian medical infrastructure, improve educational facilities, AIDS prevention and environment cleanup projects. Most Russians are unaware of those figures, but they are more likely to know about the $29 million the USA granted to Russian (legally registered) human rights groups.

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to exactly how Russia was slowly being cut out?

offering them a little financial welfare if they go along with our policies is not actually working with them...at least for the long term.


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Twenty-five years?


Gee, don't you think that 25 years would be enough time for a new generation to take over these Soviet relics and start a more civilized society?

...no doubt a lot of things could happen in 25 years...but a lot of those things could be bad too....


Fathertime!

[jone]

Twenty-five years?


Gee, don't you think that 25 years would be enough time for a new generation to take over these Soviet relics and start a more civilized society?

I think that the Russians honor only the contracts that they feel are in their best interest.  The people in the Kremlin felt that Ukraine was already theirs and that they were not honor bound by the lease agreement or by the Budapest Memorandum.  Ownership, in the minds of the Kremlin leaders, does not hold them accountable for honoring these agreements.

[Boethius]

Quote:

"Put simply, without a naval base in Crimea Russia is finished as a global military power"

Sounds like a good enough reason.

(I have a feeling an endless line of new questions will come..... )

From Forbes.com. I can't paste and copy on this machine, so you'll just have to take my word for it, or dig it up yourself. The article (which sounds anti-Putin to me) is called 5 things you should know about Putin's incursion into Crimea.

(seems you have a little copy-cat there with the questions Boe, hehe)

The Forbes article is inaccurate, as Russia already had 2 warm sea ports within Russia.

[mendeleyev]

offering them a little financial welfare if they go along with our policies is not actually working with them...at least for the long term.


Fathertime!

Despite your statement, I believe you to be more intelligent than that. The WTO, for example, was far, far, far, more than "a little financial welfare." It was, as Mr. Putin noted at the time, an example of the US and Russia beginning to work together. That alone was an economic game changer for Russia.

[calmissile]

Todays congressional hearing on Ukraine.  One of many transcripts of testimony.   This one in particular seemed to make a lot of sense.

http://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Herbst_Testimony_REVISED2.pdf

I would be interested in hearing Mendy's comments on the testimony (among others).

[msmobyone]

Obviously you forgot the discussion.   As I recall, one point that was brought out was that the area was not optimum for a port.   

What was 'wrong' with Novorossiysk ? No need to cross a third nation's territory.

Ah yes, a diversionary issue was needed to allow Russians to think the economic crisis was all down to the 'wicked west'

[fathertime]

Ah yes, a diversionary issue was needed to allow Russians to think the economic crisis was all down to the 'wicked west'

I might dismiss it there were just one or two countries talking about the 'wicked west' but there are a lot more than that.  just today we have Venezuela reacting to our aggressive actions with them.  Coincidentally I've also recently read they are making efforts to trade oil in Yuan and bypass dollars.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/10/us-venezuela-usa-idUSKBN0M61JK20150310
  Meanwhile China invests in Venezuela:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/china-venezuela-20bn-loans-financing-nicolas-maduro-beijing


Fathertime!   

[msmobyone]

I might dismiss it there were just one or two countries talking about the 'wicked west' but there are a lot more than that. 

FT,

Sure, many nations try to promote their trade links / sphere of influence, but which nation has used military action in it's neighbours and handed out passports to one side in a conflict they were supposed to be 'peace-keeping' ?

[AC]

I think that the Russians honor only the contracts that they feel are in their best interest.  The people in the Kremlin felt that Ukraine was already theirs and that they were not honor bound by the lease agreement or by the Budapest Memorandum.  Ownership, in the minds of the Kremlin leaders, does not hold them accountable for honoring these agreements.

I agree with this assessment.  Putin's words about Ukraine in the past that "it's not a real nation" showed his nefarious intention.

We've all discussed this a few times, and that is that by annexing Crimea and invading E. Ukraine under the pretext that it belonged to Russia once before, Russia has violated the peace which was established after WWII and opened a Pandora's box. 

Turkey the modern day equivalent of the Ottoman Empire, can now also lay historic claim to Crimea and their claim goes back farther than Russia's.  So under this revisionist way of doing things, Crimea goes to the Tatar's and Turks.

[fathertime]

FT,

Sure, many nations try to promote their trade links / sphere of influence, but which nation has used military action in it's neighbours and handed out passports to one side in a conflict they were supposed to be 'peace-keeping' ?

as we are seeing, sometimes holding on to a sphere of influence is no small thing...sometimes wars are fought over these things...sometimes they are covert/lowkey....sometimes through finance...sometimes with bombs....sometimes all of the above...in part it depends on a countries options.


Fathertime!   

[SANDRO43]

So under this revisionist way of doing things, Crimea goes to the Tatar's and Turks.

We'll be hearing from the Scythians and Sarmatians next :

Scythia 100BC

[AC]

We'll be hearing from the Scythians and Sarmatians next :

Scythia 100BC

Exactly.  And wasn't Crimea inhabited once by an ancient German tribe?  Oh, what a headache.

[SANDRO43]

Exactly.  And wasn't Crimea inhabited once by an ancient German tribe?  Oh, what a headache.

Germanic rather than German, the Goths originally from Sweden:

Orange: 4th century AD

[Anotherkiwi]

What was 'wrong' with Novorossiysk ? No need to cross a third nation's territory.

Too small. 

[AC]

Germanic rather than German, the Goths originally from Sweden:

Orange: 4th century AD

Since Scythia is not to my knowledge a current nation (I suspect that you will correct me as I get the feeling your history is better than mine  ) and Turkey is the modern day equivalent of the Ottoman Empire, it seems to me that if we are now rewarding territory to the surviving original nation, that Crimea would go to Turkey.  In fact I remember reading there was a treaty between Catherine the Great and the Ottoman Empire, and that if a dispute arose the territory would revert back to OE, which is now Turkey.  What do you think about this?

[SANDRO43]

Since Scythia is not to my knowledge a current nation

The Scythians have long disappeared from this world. They used to make beautiful zoomorphic gold jewelry:

Turkey is the modern day equivalent of the Ottoman Empire, it seems to me that if we are now rewarding territory to the surviving original nation, that Crimea would go to Turkey.

There used to be Greek colonies there, too (Chersonesus et al.):