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Author Topic: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis  (Read 238923 times)

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Online Faux Pas

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #350 on: July 29, 2014, 10:49:05 AM »
Very good fp..attack the poster rather then expressing a legit pov on the issue.  I'm accustomed to that when people are angry about a differing position.  Perhaps you realize that you are incapable of thinking things through well enough to propose possible solutions.

I continue to hold that Ukraine should be negoiating in part because it will lead to a better outcome than fighting.

Fathertime!

FT, I not only attacked your posts on the subject, I torpedoed them. Nuclear blast. I gave you ample opportunity to defend your position but yet, you come back with nothing. One can only surmise that it is because you have nothing. You apparently live in some isolated black and white fantasy world of right and wrong. Your only source information of the world events being discussed is what you read on the internet more specifically, this fora. This is in the face of numerous folks, myself included explaining to you the gaping holes in your logic. Yet, you persist. One can only surmise that it is because you love hearing yourself talk aloud in a room full of people who pay you no mind. Your contribution on this subject equates to nothing more than palaver.

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #351 on: July 29, 2014, 11:00:02 AM »
Geeze, FP,

Enjoyed your post, but couldn't you change your Avatar?  Its hideous.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline fathertime

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #352 on: July 29, 2014, 11:13:02 AM »
I have given my viewpoint... [gratuitous insult removed].

I continue to believe that Ukraine and the world would be better  off with a negotiated agreement regarding a federation. ..it appears you all think it is ridiculous. ..well I think it is ridiculous that you think it is ridiculous...but you are entitled to form your own opinion.

If Ukraine fights and wins you will be right...I don't think that is going to happen.

Fathertime!


« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 11:15:39 AM by AnonMod »
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Muzh

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #353 on: July 29, 2014, 12:24:58 PM »
I have given my viewpoint... [gratuitous insult removed].

I continue to believe that Ukraine and the world would be better  off with a negotiated agreement regarding a federation. ..it appears you all think it is ridiculous. ..well I think it is ridiculous that you think it is ridiculous...but you are entitled to form your own opinion.

If Ukraine fights and wins you will be right...I don't think that is going to happen.

Fathertime!


The problem with your viewpoint is that it espouses what you've been rallying against in other threads, namely the imposition of a foreign power into a smaller one.


OR is it that for you a larger foreign power like Russia should impose its will over Ukraine but the US should NOT impose its will over, let's say Guatemala?


OR, is it that you cannot grasp what a federation of the eastern oblasts will do to Ukraine? I think this is it. You have very limited understanding of the geopolitical situations in Eastern Europe that such a simple concept as the federation of eastern oblasts will create a frozen conflict?


OR, maybe you understand this AND relish seeing that part of the world involved in a frozen conflict?


Sick
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #354 on: July 29, 2014, 01:02:31 PM »

The problem with your viewpoint is that it espouses what you've been rallying against in other threads, namely the imposition of a foreign power into a smaller one.


OR is it that for you a larger foreign power like Russia should impose its will over Ukraine but the US should NOT impose its will over, let's say Guatemala?



I recognize that Russia is doing something similar to what we have been doing....so if we were to isolate their action I would condemn it. They are committing a foul.   That said, I don't believe that we can/should isolate their action.   I continue to believe that it has to be looked at through the lens of worldwide events, including US actions...if one does that it is easier to see the Russian position. 





OR, is it that you cannot grasp what a federation of the eastern oblasts will do to Ukraine? I think this is it. You have very limited understanding of the geopolitical situations in Eastern Europe that such a simple concept as the federation of eastern oblasts will create a frozen conflict?




I don't think creating a federation would create a frozen conflict.  If indeed the pro Ukrainians are the majority in the Eastern Oblasts, and yet they have more autonomy...what about that creates a frozen conflict?  I'm listening as is most others, so why is it that you believe there will be a frozen conflict?   I believe it will be a military rout if Ukraine doesn't give in to some of Russia's  demands...even if they shouldn't be making them. so assuming your 'frozen conflict' scenario is correct..what is worse that or a Russian invasion?


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #355 on: July 29, 2014, 01:20:08 PM »
A federation would create a frozen conflict.  The leader of the federation would be an oligarch close to Moscow, chosen by Moscow, and Moscow's policies therefore would be implemented in a sovereign country.  That is why Kyiv resists it.  The end result would be as it is now.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #356 on: July 29, 2014, 01:23:32 PM »
BTW, the writing is on the wall.  Unless Russia is willing to send troops, this conflict will be over fairly soon, with Ukraine's ATO prevailing.  The loss of life that has occurred, and will in the future occur to achieve this result is tragic and was unnecessary.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #357 on: July 29, 2014, 03:10:57 PM »

 I’m saying that WE (The USA) have caused much of this havoc in Libya.  Given that, it is hypocritical for us to wail about Russia doing something similar in Ukraine.


What the US did in Libya:    Diplomatic initiatives, support of the UN-declared no-fly zone, humanitarian aid, negotiation with rebels, a very small number of bombing missions, recognition of the Transitional National Council (TNC) as a legitimate authority to represent Libya, and giving to the TNC billions of dollars of previously frozen Gaddafi funds. 

This "caused much of this havoc in Libya?"  No. 

This is "similar" to what Russia is doing in Ukraine?  No. 

Please put on your analytical hat and show me how Russian actions regarding Ukraine are comparable.

Offline fathertime

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #358 on: July 29, 2014, 03:35:46 PM »
A federation would create a frozen conflict.  The leader of the federation would be an oligarch close to Moscow, chosen by Moscow, and Moscow's policies therefore would be implemented in a sovereign country.  That is why Kyiv resists it.  The end result would be as it is now.


In the case of a federation, why would a oligarch close to Moscow be elected in a region that you all seem to believe supports Ukraine sovereignty and ideals?  That seems like a giant leap to me.  If there is a large subset of the population in the region that does lean Russian, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to let their voices be heard and if some policies are pro-Russian that doesn't seem like that big a deal, so long as they aren't anti-Ukrainian. 


All of this would be a better outcome for those that support Ukraine, than a full Russian invasion...and that appears to be on the table now that no negotiations are happening. 






Fathertime! 
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Offline fathertime

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #359 on: July 29, 2014, 03:38:09 PM »
What the US did in Libya:    Diplomatic initiatives, support of the UN-declared no-fly zone, humanitarian aid, negotiation with rebels, a very small number of bombing missions, recognition of the Transitional National Council (TNC) as a legitimate authority to represent Libya, and giving to the TNC billions of dollars of previously frozen Gaddafi funds. 

This "caused much of this havoc in Libya?"  No. 

This is "similar" to what Russia is doing in Ukraine?  No. 

Please put on your analytical hat and show me how Russian actions regarding Ukraine are comparable.
You can couch what we did in Libya as ‘humanitarian mission’ but that is not how it was widely seen…we took out the leader of the country….
--we bombed Libyan air defenses
---installed a no fly zone
----did just enough bombing and provided just enough military assistance to assassinate the country’s leader….
 
Russia hasn't done these things…YET…but given recent events I wouldn’t be surprised if they feel entitled to do any/all of what we/NATO did.
Fathertime!   
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Offline Boethius

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #360 on: July 29, 2014, 03:55:18 PM »

In the case of a federation, why would a oligarch close to Moscow be elected in a region that you all seem to believe supports Ukraine sovereignty and ideals?  That seems like a giant leap to me.  If there is a large subset of the population in the region that does lean Russian, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to let their voices be heard and if some policies are pro-Russian that doesn't seem like that big a deal, so long as they aren't anti-Ukrainian. 


All of this would be a better outcome for those that support Ukraine, than a full Russian invasion...and that appears to be on the table now that no negotiations are happening. 

Fathertime!


Your question, in and of itself is naive and is indicative of your lack of knowledge of the region, who the politicians are, how they are elected, and how this is all related to Euromaidan. 

Here is a little background.

http://ukrainianweek.com/Columns/50/60072


http://time.com/10032/ukraine-donbass-yanukovych-kurkov/


This one discusses federalization

http://ukrainianweek.com/Columns/50/115483



« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 04:17:38 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #361 on: July 29, 2014, 04:15:25 PM »
I think that after the dust on this conflict settles it will be interesting to see how many people in the eastern oblasts look longingly towards Moscow.  I think after all the negative effects of Putin's manufactured war are tallied up that many will find a renewed enthusiasm for Kiev and the Ukrainian State. That is my hunch.


Offline fathertime

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #362 on: July 29, 2014, 04:16:55 PM »

Your question, in and of itself is naive and is indicative of your lack of knowledge of the region, who the politicians are, how they are elected, and how this is all related to Euromaidan. 

Here is a little background.

http://ukrainianweek.com/Columns/50/60072


http://time.com/10032/ukraine-donbass-yanukovych-kurkov/


The links are fine, but what a silly condescending response!
If you have no faith that a Ukrainian govt., with Ukrainian control can conduct a fair election in the Eastern reaches then maybe it isn't a bad idea to just give it up altogether and allow Russia to deal with it.  If by some off chance the pro-Russian policies prevail in a fair election and it stops the violence then that isn't a bad thing.
If given a choice between negotiating a federated Ukraine and having a chance to contain/influence the local govt., or a Russian invasion and a lot of dead bodies…Which is better?   I’d take my chances with the federation, and do everything I could to make it an election that actually represents the view of the people.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Boethius

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #363 on: July 29, 2014, 04:20:05 PM »

The links are fine, but what a silly condescending response!
If you have no faith that a Ukrainian govt., with Ukrainian control can conduct a fair election in the Eastern reaches then maybe it isn't a bad idea to just give it up altogether and allow Russia to deal with it.  If by some off chance the pro-Russian policies prevail in a fair election and it stops the violence then that isn't a bad thing.
If given a choice between negotiating a federated Ukraine and having a chance to contain/influence the local govt., or a Russian invasion and a lot of dead bodies…Which is better?   I’d take my chances with the federation, and do everything I could to make it an election that actually represents the view of the people.


Fathertime!

It is not condescending.  It is clear, by your response, that you have little understanding of what is occurring, and why. 

I edited my post to add another link.  If you want to know why Russia wants federalization, it is a good link for some basic information.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 04:23:26 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #364 on: July 29, 2014, 04:21:00 PM »
Isthmus,

While I may agree with you, don't forget that the brainwashing of Russian TV stations and media are, for the most part, the only media the older generation gets to see or hear in the 'occupied' zones.  One of the first things that the DPR and LPR leadership did was quashed a free press.  It will take years before people will come to grips with what was done to them. 

And I am amazed at the number of my Russian friends who believe every thing that comes out of Moscow.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #365 on: July 29, 2014, 04:22:46 PM »
I think that after the dust on this conflict settles it will be interesting to see how many people in the eastern oblasts look longingly towards Moscow.  I think after all the negative effects of Putin's manufactured war are tallied up that many will find a renewed enthusiasm for Kiev and the Ukrainian State. That is my hunch.


In the liberated cities, the population has been largely pro Ukraine.  However, some of that may be a holdover of a Soviet mentality (depending on their age), some may be based on the fact these cities, unlike Donetsk, are not overwhelmingly ethnic Russian, and some may be because of the lawlessness and ruthlessness of the terrorists (confirmed again by a UN report released today). 


Ukrainian forces and the terrorists are both using GRAD's, which is killing civilians.  That will be the risk for the Ukrainian military.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #366 on: July 29, 2014, 04:32:07 PM »
It is not condescending.  It is clear, by your response, that you have little understanding of what is occurring, and why. 

I edited my post to add another link.  If you want to know why Russia wants federalization, it is a good link for some basic information.


Obviously the Russian's think federalization would be better than losing influence in all of Ukraine.  Interesting, one of the links actually says it may be better to let the regions go rather than having a federation.  If Ukraine doesn't negotiate that might be the way it goes.  It is obviously Ukraine's choice...at least for the moment.  I've mentioned I think that Ukraine should negotiate and accept a federation which is being criticized....so what do you think Ukraine should do? It would seem you and those that have been critical all would prefer Ukraine to fight....is that right? 


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Boethius

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #367 on: July 29, 2014, 04:39:30 PM »
By saying it would be better to let the regions go, the writer is telling you that federalization will destroy Ukraine.

The reason Putin wants federalization is because it will weaken Kyiv to such a degree the state will eventually disintegrate.  That is why Ukrainians reject it.  So, you saying this is a "solution" for Ukraine suggests you are no friend to Ukrainians.  This tactic has been used by Moscow against Ukrainians throughout our history.  Most Ukrainians will know that history, or at least parts of it.  You have dismissed this as unimportant, but it is, in fact, very important, in terms of Ukraine's ability to survive as an independent nation.

As for "letting them go", the problem is the majority of the populations in that region are ethnic Ukrainians.  Despite what their (former) Muscovite leaders have proclaimed*, they largely have no desire to become a part of Russia, or to separate from Ukraine. 

At this point, the Ukrainian army is close to victory.  So, unless Russia invades Ukraine, what I, or anyone else thinks, is moot.



*As the Ukrainian army takes more territory, the "self appointed" Muscovites have abandoned Donetsk and allegedly gone back to Russia.


After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #368 on: July 29, 2014, 04:40:58 PM »
For any wishing to see the perspective from the Russian/Separatist perspective, here is a good website:

www.icorpus.ru

I found the site to be more about military engagement and less about ideals.  But I guess when you are getting your head handed to you, any morale boost can be a balm.    I especially liked the declaration against swearing.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #369 on: July 29, 2014, 04:42:14 PM »
I think that for residents of eastern Ukraine, media propaganda will play second fiddle to what they actually see and experience on the ground. It is imperative that UA forces minimise civilian casualties.

I don't think UA should accept Federalisation just because Moscow manufactured a war in Donetsk. UA forces are now better organised and winning back territory. They should be pressing for victory. That will leave Putin with a difficult decision to make ...

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #370 on: July 29, 2014, 04:50:06 PM »
What the US did in Libya:    Diplomatic initiatives, support of the UN-declared no-fly zone, humanitarian aid, negotiation with rebels, a very small number of bombing missions, recognition of the Transitional National Council (TNC) as a legitimate authority to represent Libya, and giving to the TNC billions of dollars of previously frozen Gaddafi funds. 

This "caused much of this havoc in Libya?"  No. 

This is "similar" to what Russia is doing in Ukraine?  No. 

Please put on your analytical hat and show me how Russian actions regarding Ukraine are comparable.

I'm not to pretend I know all about the Libyan Assault but please bear With me on my take. As far as I'm concerned (and I've written about it here before) this is my countrys darkest Foreign entanglement since the Viking times.

They made this documentary about the bombing of Libya here, and it's one of a rushed decision to commit to bombing targets there that were very controversial. Even With Our small military (pop. 5 million) Norway dropped 10% of all bombs on Libya back then. There were interviews of the F-16 airmen, all of course Professional and educated in the US and did as they were told, drop bombs on a country that never did us any wrong.

What is Libya? As I understand it, historically not at nation state as we understand it but rather a Collection of tribes, many times in opposition to each other, kinda like the former Yougoslavia. Gadaffi held it together. Sure, not a Nice guy, but who really is? Sometimes a country or region does better With a strong leader than left in a vacuum. Same With Russia. They need a strong leader like Putin or it's a colour revolution funded by Washington and then Russia end up just like another big lapdog like Britain. Next in line.... China.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... the world needs a Balance. The unipolar world of US hegemony cannot stand. It's never worked before and it will not work now, no matter how exceptional Obama has made his subjects feel.

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #371 on: July 29, 2014, 04:52:53 PM »
So you believe the world needs a "strong leader" who imprisons those opposed to him, supports state control of the media, and annexes regions of neighbouring democracies, contrary to international treaties?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #372 on: July 29, 2014, 05:00:12 PM »


At this point, the Ukrainian army is close to victory.  So, unless Russia invades Ukraine, what I, or anyone else thinks, is moot.



No courage to take a position publicly? Obviously it is moot...but still you have a position and are just afraid to state it...




I think that for residents of eastern Ukraine, media propaganda will play second fiddle to what they actually see and experience on the ground. It is imperative that UA forces minimise civilian casualties.

I don't think UA should accept Federalisation just because Moscow manufactured a war in Donetsk. UA forces are now better organised and winning back territory. They should be pressing for victory. That will leave Putin with a difficult decision to make ...


It will be a gutsy position for Ukraine to take Isthmus...very risky too....Russia will have a difficult decision to make....If I were Putin I would have left it alone after Crimea....that said, I don't think he is bluffing.  It shall be interesting to see if a third party comes in with a feasible last second compromise. 



I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #373 on: July 29, 2014, 05:06:39 PM »

No courage to take a position publicly? Obviously it is moot...but still you have a position and are just afraid to state it...


Why would I take a position that is likely not to occur?  Should I also speculate on how many angels dance on the head of a pin?


If Russia invades, I will have a position at that time.  As it stands, Ukraine will retake the territory.


After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #374 on: July 29, 2014, 05:11:59 PM »
President Poroshenko has requested a meeting in Belarus among Ukraine's representative, Leonid Kuchma, the OSCE, and Russia's ambassador to Ukraine, Mikhail Zurabov.  The meeting is to discuss the release of all hostages held by the terrorists and OSCE access to the crash site.



After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

 

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American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by 2tallbill
Today at 04:48:07 PM

Re: What to do by krimster2
Today at 04:37:18 PM

If you don't know what you are talking about, post away anyway by 2tallbill
Today at 04:17:08 PM

Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by krimster2
Today at 02:48:08 PM

Re: What to do by krimster2
Today at 01:09:03 PM

Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by Trenchcoat
Today at 12:51:13 PM

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