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Author Topic: Ukraine-The Future  (Read 208806 times)

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Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #225 on: November 25, 2014, 09:43:54 PM »
Approximately half of Ukraine was not part of the Russian Empire since the time of Peter the Great, and corruption was not systemic in the non Russian part of Ukraine.  We discussed that here some time ago.



After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #226 on: November 25, 2014, 09:59:07 PM »
well, did you know that 15 minutes can save you 15% or more on car insurance??

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #227 on: November 25, 2014, 10:52:07 PM »


What, I lost my credibility because of a reference to a “time machine”, my goodness, I’ll have to go back in time and remove the reference, ha,ha!!  Oh no, I just met myself traveling backwards in time, just at the point when I was going to reveal the last time I was actually in Ukraine and accidentally created a singularity, so now I’ll have to go back even before that and...


Thanks for making your perfectly valid opinions be known. 


Some of these 'all-knowing and wise posters' will try to discredit you any way they can, simply because they don't like what you are saying. 


Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #228 on: November 26, 2014, 12:09:05 AM »

The Soviet Union (and not Ukraine) gave a major “ass-whooping” to the Nazis after a disastrous 1st year.  Kiev was conquered just 3 months after the start of the war (with a loss of over 800,000 Soviet troops), and the rest of Ukraine shortly after, between then and 1944 Ukraine was administered by the Nazis and assisted the Nazi war effort not the Soviet Union’s

I hate to disagree with you AC, I think it will be over next year, with Russia lengthening its borders yet again, if the West wants to show some resolve, stop buying Russian oil and gas, I don’t see that happening, do you?
   

You are giving far to much credit to the USSR and not enough to Ukrainians who turned against the Germans soon after realizing what their real purpose was -- also without significant lend lease Russia aka the Soviets would have lost the war.

Initially Germany made huge gains.  Likely Putler will make the gains you mention -- but look for a total reversal of fortune within 3 to 5 years.  Total economic collapse in Russia and Putler dead in a bunker just like Hitler was.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #229 on: November 26, 2014, 12:14:27 AM »

On corruption, I will agree with krimster.  Ukraine is still incredibly corrupt.
  Currently, there are government officials and oligarchs buying coal from Russia, then marking it up 30% to sell to Ukraine.  The attitude is to steal as much as possible and leave.  That is why it is important to trace Yanukovych's money, and to keep him, his clan, and their families, on sanctions lists.  Money outside Russia should be confiscated if its origins cannot be proven.   International lawsuits demanding a return of funds held in Russian banks must be commenced.  And, if those fail, they stay on sanctions lists.  This must be done down the line, to all who have stolen money.  I don't think Ukraine has the political will to do that, because most of its politicians are corrupt.

I am not saying the corruption  issue is solved-- I am saying that the stomach to eradicate is there now.Given time-- at least now it is being treated as a major issue.
My opinion-- if you take note of what the influence of  Right Sector has already achieved( against all the odds or conventional wisdoms)  and it gives you a clue of what is possible.Being over critical in the short term and expecting every problem to be solved overnight is not being realistic. The government has also had  an invasion  to deal with.
On the coal issue-- the Ukrainian government has had numerous unpalatable compromises forced on it-- and being pragmatic does not discredit it for me.
BTW-- coal from Australia has started arriving in Ukraine at Mauripol last week .It is an illustration of the extent of problem solving sought to cover a Ukraine facing winter with a coal shortage.


 1  The roots of Ukraine’s systemic corruption are quite deep and are nearly three centuries old. They were institutionalized under Peter the Great’s creation of Russia’s Civil Service system which was created without a budget to pay its employees.  Peter the Great told his civil servants that, “if they were smart enough to get the job, they were smart enough to figure out a way to make money from it”. I’m amazed that anyone thinks that in such a short period of time that because of a riot in Kiev last year that “things have really changed”, why if that’s all it takes I guess the riot in Ferguson, Mo. last night will rid the USA of racism, hoo-ray!!!  Don’t take my word for it, after all I was’t there yesterday to see these wonderous changes for myself, ask an investor in Ukraine, like this fellow mentioned in the



 2   Separate investigative reports from Pravda.com.ua and Theinsider.ua suggested that the “somebody” in question could be Sergei Kuzyara, a coal trader with close ties to Ukraine’s deposed President Viktor Yanukovych. Kuzyara’s plans to buy coal from Russia and the rebels in eastern Ukraine had found support in the Poroshenko camp. Such an arrangement could be lucrative. The rebels, despite the assistance they receive from Russia, need funds and would be willing to accept low prices for the coal they seized from the warehouses of state-owned mines.

   
Get it, Poroshenko is going to buy Ukrainian coal from the separatists who will use the money to continue the war!

So what’s changed in Ukraine?


3What, I lost my credibility because of a reference to a “time machine”, my goodness, I’ll have to go back in time and remove the reference, ha,ha!!  Oh no, I just met myself traveling backwards in time, just at the point when I was going to reveal the last time I was actually in Ukraine and accidentally created a singularity, so now I’ll have to go back even before that and...

K2---1/    like I said-- you keep harking back to the past . It has no relevance to Ukraine 2014--other than to illustrate that corruption is historically endemic. No one is arguing that it is not a problem--what you are disputing is that the attitude has changed -- and you cannot use history or even current examples to dispel the view that a new attitude is prevelant.
I for one-- do not dispute that it is a massive problem to tackle-I am not arguing that at all-- what I am saying is that it is on the agenda and given a reasonable opportunity to govern- the new government will tackle it.

2/  What has changed you ask--ther is the answer in your own words-- a free press commenting on contraversial government decisions--let me say it again-- a democratic free press!!

3/  Your reluctance to simply answer my question--"When were you last there"? highlights one of my points--you seek to use your time in Ukraine to enhance your credibility-- when in fact it was a long time ago-- so your comments on current day Ukraine have no credibility from personal observation--your comments are from a previous era-you know it-now we all know it to-simple as that.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #230 on: November 26, 2014, 12:26:05 AM »
K2-- so it was when? 2005?  To repeat--it does not disqualify you having an opinion--there has been far greater ignorance expressed on the forums by people that have never been there-- so your insight still has merit-on some topics!

What you are not recognising is a huge shift-- a change of direction and attitudes.You keep harking back to issues of previous times--those very issues are what maidan was about--ie changing Ukraine to create a future.You dismiss that glibly--and keep harking back-my point is that you simply don't know! Your opinions were formed and are now stuck in an earlier time.
The forum has seen a procession this year of others like you-- that simply dont get it !
Calmissile refers to anecdotal personal experiences of examples of change. I can also quote personal experiences and knowledge of a shift--plus lot's more. These are small examples-but real life current experiences.

Jay it takes much longer than just one year.  He's right IMO the Oligarchs who rob from this country will never change.

Offline LAman

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #231 on: November 26, 2014, 12:50:03 AM »
Jay it takes much longer than just one year.  He's right IMO the Oligarchs who rob from this country will never change.

It could take a generation..... or more.

My thoughts are the corruption can be better disguised and not so much out in the open. Businesses still will have to pay the bribes to get any licenses or paperwork needed. I still see the corruption both times this year...same as last year. I see no difference. Hopefully time will change thoughts and what is right, as someone said...its a mindset.

Life isn't tied with a bow, but it's still a gift

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #232 on: November 26, 2014, 02:26:01 AM »
Jay it takes much longer than just one year.  He's right IMO the Oligarchs who rob from this country will never change.

AC-- my reference to this year was the period of change of attitude--not a solution to the problem per se--but a change of attitude to tackle the issues/
I do not doubt that if the oligarchs are left to run amok  as in the past -then it will be difficult to change--BUT-- the mood has changed of the whole country and it's expectations. The desire to create a better environment is there now.
That is a major major change.
What K2 is saying is exactly like what has happened in the east and Crimea-- hang the government of today for the sins of the past-- and not give them the opportunity to correct those ills.
I find it particularly abhorrent  that the sacrifices of Ukrainians of this last year is discounted so blithely .


SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #233 on: November 26, 2014, 02:28:43 AM »
It could take a generation..... or more.

My thoughts are the corruption can be better disguised and not so much out in the open. Businesses still will have to pay the bribes to get any licenses or paperwork needed. I still see the corruption both times this year...same as last year. I see no difference. Hopefully time will change thoughts and what is right, as someone said...its a mindset.

Where and how is that exactly?
You seem to refer to a specific example-- so be specific.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #234 on: November 26, 2014, 09:04:01 AM »
My dear “patriots”

Ukraine currently has a 20% inflation rate that is expected to increase to 25% next month, said the head of the National Bank of Ukraine, article here:

http://mw.ua/ECONOMICS/nbu-expects-25-inflation-rate-492_.html

The hryvnia has lost more than 41 percent this year against the dollar, and will likely continue to drop (especially since the NBU no longer has the foreign currency to intervene):

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-06/ukraine-inflation-jumps-to-19-8-on-food-amid-conflict.html

Ukraine is no longer receiving coal from Donbas, unless it is covertly buying from separatists or re-importing from Russia:  So if it doesn’t buy from separitists/Russia, it will have to buy from foreign sources with foreign reserves, like a few corrupt ministers tried to do here:

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/editorial/stop-stealing-371761.html

However, after the corruption involving this deal was made public, South Africa has refused to sell Ukraine any more coal, because even South Africa has to protect its “reputation” from Ukraine, even Poland and other foreign sources don’t want to sell to Ukraine!

http://www.capital.ua/en/news/34211-kompaniya-iz-yuar-otkazalas-ot-novykh-sdelok-po-postavkam-uglya-v-ukrainu

In the last 6 months, we’ve all been privileged to see  Ukraine’s version of  “Lives of the Rich and Famous”, well actually it’s the “Lives of Ukrainian Senior Political figures” with various Dacha’s in Kiev:

 http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-zlochevskiy-palace/26707701.html

and of course let’s not forget Yanukovych’s dacha which apparently now has its own wikipedia page!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezhyhirya_Residence

I could take this list and go on and on and on, oligarch after oligarch, even the current President Poroshenko made his fortune the old fashioned Ukrainian way, by taking the ownership documents of Roshen Chocolate and at the bottom where it said, “owned by The People of Ukraine”, scratched out the “People of Ukraine” part and then signed his own name there.

However, some of you here have claimed that things are different now and that I’m just “out of touch with Ukraine’s New Reality”

Well, denial is not a river in Egypt folks. 
I guess “technically" you are correct, In the past year Ukraine has certainly changed!

The biggest manufacturing exporting region in Ukraine is in near total ruins
The biggest coal producing region in Ukraine is now cut-off from Ukraine
Ukraine’s inflation rate is about 25%
Hryvnia in free-fall as well as GDP
Ukraine banks in deep trouble (this would need a separate article to explain how bad it is)
Ukraine’s foreign reserves are almost gone
Ukraine has massive debts, almost no ability to repay, and a lot of “missing” funds
Ukraine’s military is in shambles with poor commanders and “missing” equipment
Crimea has been seized, and will likely soon lose a portion of East and Southern Ukraine
Corruption is still rampant in Ukraine’s central government
(I will skip the next 172 entries in this list, it’s too tedious to write all this stuff)

However, as is claimed on this forum, peoples “attitudes have changed”, now I hate to bring up that dreaded topic, you know, “the past”, but as someone who was there during the Orange Revolution, how would you compare and contrast peoples’s attitudes during the Orange Revolution and during the Maidan Protests, weren’t they after all basically the same?

How well did the Orange Revolution work out?  So much for Hope and Change

This discussion has nothing at all to do with the date of the last time I set foot in “Ukraine”, especially since I lived in Crimea, I could’ve been there yesterday and it would’t have changed one single character of what I wrote here.




Offline Misha

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #235 on: November 26, 2014, 09:38:13 AM »
It could take a generation..... or more.


When there is the will at the top, it can be done relatively quickly. Georgia has received a lot of positive press as to its successful fight against corruption: [size=78%]http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/02/tbilisi%E2%80%99s-corruption-busters[/size]

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #236 on: November 26, 2014, 11:13:07 AM »
AC,

Чогось наша славна Україна зажурилася

According to this source:

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages\S\O\SovietpartisansinUkraine1941hD75.htm

“ In Ukraine, Soviet partisans played a less important role in the Soviet war effort against the Germans than they did in other parts of the Soviet Union.”

On the otherhand, consider this source:

http://www.feldgrau.com/rvol.html

“These so-called "Hilfswillige," or "Hiwi," were employed as sentries, drivers, store- keepers, workers in depots, etc. The experiment surpassed all expectations. In the spring of 1942 there were already at least 200,000 of them in the rear of the German armies, and by the end of the same year their number was allegedly near 1,000,000. “

According to Wikipedia, about 1/4 of the 6th Army’s strength at Stalingrad were Hiwis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_%28volunteer%29

If you look at the territory that was occupied by the Germans at the end of 1942, you would have to conclude that the bulk of Hiwis would have had to come from Ukraine

So I guess Ukraine really did play an important role in WWII!

OTOH, if you’re referring to the UPA durring WWII, then take note that according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

“Although German policies were criticized, the Soviet partisans were identified as the primary enemy of OUN (B)”

At the end of the war, the USSR was able to military oppose the UPA with around 30,000 NKVD troops and during the last 8 months of the war  the UPA suffered approximately 89,000 killed, approximately 91,000 captured, and approximately 39,000 surrendered while the Soviet forces lost approximately 12,000 killed, approximately 6,000 wounded and 2,600 MIA

The real turning point against the UPA came however, when the Soviets switched tactics from a purely military campaign in 1947, and established an intelligence gathering network within the UPA and shifted the focus of their actions from mass terror to infiltration and espionage. After 1947 the UPA's activity began to subside, and the Soviet authorities tried to win over the local population by making significant economic investment in Western Ukraine.

So my friends, Russia has “been there, done that”, if the situation in Ukraine returns to the same level that it did with the UPA resistance, what makes you think the outcome will be any different this time?

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #237 on: November 26, 2014, 11:40:17 AM »
All that you posted is old news and I'm already familiar with it.  I wonder why you feel a need to re-hash it out 75 years or so after the end of WWII. 

Ukrainians were enlisted in the armed forces of the Soviet Union and fought against the Germans.  Your singular focus on Hiwi's (which were not combat in nature at all) and Partisans is telling to me.

Yet another mindless Russian propaganda troll?  I'm beginning to wonder.

Your opinions about corruption are mostly accurate I believe -- but you are very pessimistic and not taking into account that Poroshenko does seem very determined to change the status quo.

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #238 on: November 26, 2014, 11:44:11 AM »
So my friends, Russia has “been there, done that”, if the situation in Ukraine returns to the same level that it did with the UPA resistance, what makes you think the outcome will be any different this time?

This statement is mind-bogglingly clueless.  Russia by itself did nothing of the sort.  The Soviet Union had enormous assets of the allies on their side.

Now Russia is isolated and by itself -- and with the combined economic sanctions of the West and possibly soon to be military assets of NATO allied against a lone dictator and his out of date military.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 12:21:16 PM by AC »

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #239 on: November 26, 2014, 11:52:17 AM »

When there is the will at the top, it can be done relatively quickly. Georgia has received a lot of positive press as to its successful fight against corruption: [size=78%]http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/02/tbilisi%E2%80%99s-corruption-busters[/size]

Exactly.  And you can be certain that both Ukraine and the West will look at Georgia for a comparison.  Ukraine knows the alternative to success.  Decades more as a subjugated vassal state of the Evil Empire to the East.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #240 on: November 26, 2014, 11:52:46 AM »
Quote
The real turning point against the UPA came however, when the Soviets switched tactics from a purely military campaign in 1947, and established an intelligence gathering network within the UPA and shifted the focus of their actions from mass terror to infiltration and espionage. After 1947 the UPA's activity began to subside, and the Soviet authorities tried to win over the local population by making significant economic investment in Western Ukraine.

So my friends, Russia has “been there, done that”, if the situation in Ukraine returns to the same level that it did with the UPA resistance, what makes you think the outcome will be any different this time?


Seriously, you believe this?

The Soviets were fighting UPA into the 1950's.  The locals were so "won over" by the Soviets, that all their churches were closed, and millions were sent to gulags.  My Godfather's wife and two sons, both under 12, were sent to Siberia in 1946.  Both boys were required to chop a certain amount of wood daily, failing which, they were beaten with a wooden board.  Their crime was that their father had been forcibly taken to Germany as a slave labourer.  They were released in 1956.  My mother's cousin, a teen, was sent to a gulag for the crime of taking in laundry (for cash) from UPA members.  She was raped routinely by prison guards.  These stories are typical of the region (the two I mentioned were from different oblasts, and did not know each other), nothing special or shocking.

Until the collapse of the USSR, Western Ukraine was governed not from Kyiv (as was the rest of the Ukrainian SSR), but by Moscow.  Russification policies were particularly intense.  In Kyiv in the 1980's, there were two technical colleges that would take students who were not Komsomol members.  This did not exist in Western Ukraine, where Komsomol membership was a requirement even for a part time night school diploma.  My relatives (my age), all lived in a village in Ivano Frankivsk.  In high school, Komsomol membership was mandatory, which was not the case in Central or Eastern Ukraine.

I could go on with other examples.  But, you get the point.  It was force, not the great life provided by the Soviets, which quieted the locals.  That is why most of them returned to the Greek Catholic Church on the collapse of the USSR, why there were disputes about who controlled the churches (Greek Catholics vs Orthodox), why they immediately returned to speaking Ukrainian rather than Russian in their daily lives, why they demanded Ukrainian be made the official language of Ukraine, and why nationalism and an intense desire to divorce from the "moskali" occurred after the USSR collapsed.

As for collaboration, it is something that has interested me since the 1980's.  I don't have time to debate it, but I believe your numbers are grossly inflated.

Here are a couple of links.  The first one is from a nationalist, but he does give numbers on Ukrainians in the Red Army (estimates are 4.5 million to 7 million).  Keep in mind over 600,000 mostly Ukrainian Red Army soldiers were captured in the initial invasion, and most of them died in POW concentration camps, usually within spitting distance of their homes.  These soldiers often were given a choice - serve the Germans, or die -

http://www.infoukes.com/upa/related/military.html

http://books.google.ca/books?id=YMk8366ZFQcC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=number+of+ukrainians+in+german+army+wwii&source=bl&ots=g4jx7sProF&sig=IMHB62Qg0KBWCutG17vvVCAa6U0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6x12VKf5BsmoNtTzgvgD&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=number%20of%20ukrainians%20in%20german%20army%20wwii&f=false
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 11:58:35 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #241 on: November 26, 2014, 12:23:10 PM »
Mods:  perhaps discussion solely on events of WWII should be split-off away from this thread.  It's a common tactic of the pro-Russian group to divert attention away from the activities of the current regime in Moscow against Ukraine by discussing this.

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #242 on: November 26, 2014, 12:56:44 PM »
K2-- I seem to have missed the answer AGAIN !! So-- you have not been there since when? 2007? :)


Heh, and just because you "were" in Ukraine recently makes you the luminary in all Ukrainian?


Tell you what. Take off your rose-colored glasses and talk to the Ukrainians that are in the frontline. Ask those who felt like shooting the Kyiv commander because the bastard was simply looking after his own interests and "fcuk" Ukraine was better for his bottom line.


Basically, stop spewing nonsense.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #243 on: November 26, 2014, 12:59:25 PM »
K-2  Another perhaps false perception you have is there is no change in the corruption in Ukraine.  I cannot argue about corruption at the oligarch level, however I can personally tell you that there is a huge difference in the judiciary and civil servants that man the various government offices.



Doug, you are out in left field there with that statement. Please verify your statements with real judiciary. Don't mean to burst your bubble. Trust me, there's nothing that would make me so happy as to know what you just said is the reality.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #244 on: November 26, 2014, 02:17:48 PM »
The Consolation of Boethius

“Seriously, you believe this?
The Soviets were fighting UPA into the 1950's.”

Yeah, I know, I just wanted within the space of a sentence or two to illustrate how Soviet strategy changed and how it was increasingly effective until the Soviets completely wiped out the UPA.

Boethius, everyone knows the Soviets were extremely brutal to their “subjects”, they certainly had a preference for the stick (or nosh or britva), in order for carrots to be a powerful coercive force, the people first need to be hungry... and also as a reference to both a past and likely future Russian strategy for Ukraine...

“ I don't have time to debate it, but I believe your numbers are grossly inflated.”

I’m just quoting the sources I mentioned, I can’t vouch for their accuracy any more than you can vouch for yours, despite the quantitative uncertainty,  I think you CAN say with certainty that a large number of Ukrainians were collaborating with the Nazis.  It’s not something I want to beat-up Ukrainians for, as I’ve said, I have a wife and children, if I were in their situation, I would do anything to keep my family fed as well, I’m not being judgmental, just reacting to the post that was saying, “hey, how ‘bout them Ukrainians, and the whipping they gave the Nazis”,  there’s another side to this, and is relevant to todays events.   How will Ukraine be able to present itself as the best choice for its people if its economy completely crashes in 2015, and if this does happen, how may people will “switch sides” as a result?

BTW AC, please don’t label me as being “Pro-Russian”, this is a clear misrepresentation of my statements.  I have ENORMOUS sympathy with the people of Ukraine, why?  Because I’ve been in their shoes, my children went to a Ukrainian school, I understand what it feels like to take your kids to a school that has no heat in the middle of winter.  I understand the downcast look in an old woman’s eyes who sits all day in the market to sell a few dollars worth of “kartoshkie”, I’ve seen it all my friend, seen kids left in their own waste in a hospital in Chernigov, cuz the administration stole all the money, seen orphanage #1 and orphanage #2 in Sevastopol, I don’t even want to describe what I saw there, I know first hand, what suffering the people of Ukraine must endure and experienced some of the lessor forms myself with my family, and seriously I haven’t even started on this subject and will out of necessity just have to stop myself  from going any further.  If mentioning the suffering that the people of Ukraine must endure because of it’s no-good, thieving corrupt oligarchy makes me “Pro-Russian”, I will just have to say that these few words are better than your silence on the subject, so what does that make you my friend?

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #245 on: November 26, 2014, 02:38:11 PM »
The Consolation of Boethius

“Seriously, you believe this?
The Soviets were fighting UPA into the 1950's.”


It is not a matter of believing it.  It is a fact.  The slaughter in that area was exceptionally brutal.  I heard stories when I visited relatives, and I also heard many more stories of the carnage in Poland, where Ukrainians and Poles were engaged in a particularly nasty nationalist war.  It is not hidden.  My husband knew about it, including when he still lived in the USSR, and he was a Kyianin.

Quote
Yeah, I know, I just wanted within the space of a sentence or two to illustrate how Soviet strategy changed and how it was increasingly effective until the Soviets completely wiped out the UPA.


But it wasn't.  You implied the Soviets bettered the lives of the locals.  That is not true.  The only thing that was better was universal primary/secondary education, which was not mandatory when the Poles ruled the region.  The Bolsheviks ruled that region with a stick, not a carrot.  Always.


Quote
Boethius, everyone knows the Soviets were extremely brutal to their “subjects”, they certainly had a preference for the stick (or nosh or britva), in order for carrots to be a powerful coercive force, the people first need to be hungry... and also as a reference to both a past and likely future Russian strategy for Ukraine...


They were not hungry in Western Ukraine.  In the 1940's, that region, particularly after WWII, was predominantly rural.  Even today, that region is among the poorest in Ukraine, but people survive because almost everyone has a garden.

Quote
I’m just quoting the sources I mentioned, I can’t vouch for their accuracy any more than you can vouch for yours, despite the quantitative uncertainty,  I think you CAN say with certainty that a large number of Ukrainians were collaborating with the Nazis.  It’s not something I want to beat-up Ukrainians for, as I’ve said, I have a wife and children, if I were in their situation, I would do anything to keep my family fed as well, I’m not being judgmental, just reacting to the post that was saying, “hey, how ‘bout them Ukrainians, and the whipping they gave the Nazis”,  there’s another side to this, and is relevant to todays events.   How will Ukraine be able to present itself as the best choice for its people if its economy completely crashes in 2015, and if this does happen, how may people will “switch sides” as a result?

Ukrainian collaboration was no higher in Ukraine than it was in other occupied countries.  That is a fact.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 02:50:24 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #246 on: November 26, 2014, 02:49:54 PM »
sorry for the confusion

“Seriously, you believe this?
The Soviets were fighting UPA into the 1950's.”

that was your own writing, you're repsonding to yourself, don't worry I do that a lot to, it alarms my family sometimes

"bettered the lives of the locals.  That is not true. "
didn't say it was, at best it was propaganda and building state-run factories that were needed anyway, if I remember from my trip there, Lvov once was the TV set capital of the USSR

"They were not hungry in Western Ukraine"
my reference to hunger, was just a metaphor, sorry, yup everyone has their dachas/gardens for growing food, I sure did, which even included pigs, sheep and chickens

"Ukrainian collaboration was no higher in Ukraine than it was in other occupied countries.  That is a fact."
So it WAS pretty high then??  Although I expect it was higher than in Western European countries, but no facts to back up that assumption, just never heard of Hiwis in Belgium for example...





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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #247 on: November 26, 2014, 02:53:42 PM »
sorry for the confusion

“Seriously, you believe this?
The Soviets were fighting UPA into the 1950's.”

that was your own writing, you're repsonding to yourself, don't worry I do that a lot to, it alarms my family sometimes

"bettered the lives of the locals.  That is not true. "
didn't say it was, at best it was propaganda and building state-run factories that were needed anyway, if I remember from my trip there, Lvov once was the TV set capital of the USSR

"They were not hungry in Western Ukraine"
my reference to hunger, was just a metaphor, sorry, yup everyone has their dachas/gardens for growing food, I sure did, which even included pigs, sheep and chickens

"Ukrainian collaboration was no higher in Ukraine than it was in other occupied countries.  That is a fact."
So it WAS pretty high then??  Although I expect it was higher than in Western European countries, but no facts to back up that assumption, just never heard of Hiwis in Belgium for example...


No, it wasn't high.  Less than 2%, IIRC, across all countries (may be less than 1%, I haven't read it in some time).  There is a well respected historian, Roman Szporluk, who studied this extensively. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 02:57:31 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #248 on: November 26, 2014, 04:54:29 PM »

Heh, and just because you "were" in Ukraine recently makes you the luminary in all Ukrainian?


Tell you what. Take off your rose-colored glasses and talk to the Ukrainians that are in the frontline. Ask those who felt like shooting the Kyiv commander because the bastard was simply looking after his own interests and "fcuk" Ukraine was better for his bottom line.


Basically, stop spewing nonsense.

Lets start with your nonsense--  from the time I first came to the forums-- you joined with a group of forum fools( the same few who are now making themselves look totally ridiculous) to attack me -- the issue-- whether  I had ever been in Ukraine at that time. The basis-- a lie invented by a fool. You happily joined in( only about 6 people) to continue following a troll --including to this forum--where you repeated that allegation in seeking to discredit an expressed opinion.
Not only were you wrong back then -- and have never corrected or apologised for the insults-- you now trot this out-- funnily enough when I was illustrating why a poster could not comment from current exposure.
In your case-- my guess is you have not been there recently either so feel inadequate as a result. I understand you do have some direction contact very relevant to events in Ukraine this year--but please-- do not try to make it a pissing contact about who has the best contacts.You know zero of where ,what,who ,how etc my information is gained.So please-- put your brain in gear before you open your mouth and grow up.
A wise man once said to me" no one has a mortgage on good ideas"-- and that applies to information-- it can come from a lot of places and for me--I am interested in every source.
Rose coloured glasses? I am very well aware of much that is not right--or mistakes being made-- but in the end there is a long term bigger picture to consider. I think you will see I mostly comment on that.The short term issues in play tend to have too much not clear to draw a conclusion on.

So really-"Basically, stop spewing nonsense."      Take your own advice !! :)

ps    I have basically chosen to ignore your posts for some time-- but you never seem to learn any lessons from history-trolling and stalking can irritate people in real ife-as you know--so why not try and stick to fair comment rather than attempt a personal attack
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #249 on: November 26, 2014, 05:44:47 PM »
hey jayH,

you‘re complaining about someone attacking you over the issue of
“...whether  I had ever been in Ukraine at that time."
change that sentence slightly to
“When was the last time I was in Ukraine”
and you basically have the essence of your “attack” against me

why complain about something and then turn around and do basically the same thing to someone else???

 

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