Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[GQBlues]

....Now, why should Putin have any say in how Ukraine is governed?  Ukraine is an independent state.  Its populace, not a foreign leader, should decide how it is governed.

Absolutely! I agree. No country should have dominion over internal affairs of another!

Oh wait....isn't Ukraine supposed to abide by EU/USA/IMF's conditions that they need run their country according to their command in exchange for *cash*?

You know, just like it was with Russia? 

[Boethius]

The EU doesn't demand that the political structures of a country by x or y.  It doesn't send proxies to start wars against countries which elect politicians with platforms they disagree with, either.

[fathertime]

Let me assist u a little muzh...first u need to lookup what a federation is...then u will see that Ukraine being federated does not mean that they aren't still one country.  As it stands things r falling apart so negotiating or Ukrainians fighting are the options.  I'm sure u have some 'wise' ideas for a solution.  Haha
Fathertime!

[fathertime]

 

I'll try to help. Ukraine isn't a fight of the U.S.. It is however of grave concern to NATO nations. NATO is an alliance of which the U.S. belongs and NATO pivots on U.S. leadership. A very grave concern. Soviet aggression is the reason NATO was formed to begin with. Yes, Ukraine isn't part of NATO but, Ukraine is bordering NATO nations as is Russia. Ukraine is now the victim of Russian aggression. No, U.S. troops should not be sent to Ukraine IMHO. This is a NATO European issue. Europe is unwilling so be it but, NATO should stand ready and yes aid Ukraine is it's effort to rid itself of Russian aggression. Europe with the leadership might have a different view. Nobody wishes to stand up to Putin knowing the U.S. will not back them

The only thing required of Obama is leadership. Not troops, no bullets, just leadership and backing Europe as needed. Instead of the leader of the free world he has resorted to the Fundraiser in Chief. The democratic candidates are thankful

Seriously I read your post and you basically are saying nothing.  That is fine. ..I agree that we should do nothing.  Obama is a lot closer to your position than the other candidates woyld have been...I think you are just picking on him outta dislike.   I'm not his fan either but he is not doin a horrible job so far on this issue as he has not made a stupid move like put our troops in there

Fathertime!

Fathertime!

[Boethius]

A federation would weaken Kyiv's power and lead to fiefdoms. 

[GQBlues]

The EU doesn't demand that the political structures of a country by x or y.  It doesn't send proxies to start wars against countries which elect politicians with platforms they disagree with, either.

Isn't that exactly what is going on now? Anyway, I'll let this sleeping dog lie over this beaten path...

I do hope better things for Ukraine from here on in. They do have the potential to do so considering their annual gross domestic product is equal to, if not slightly better than, countries that already are members of the EU. Especially if assessed from the lenses of the IMF.

[fathertime]

A federation would weaken Kyiv's power and lead to fiefdoms.

Yes it would weaken the central power...which isn't a bad thing. Fiefdom I think is an exaggeration but you see the other options right now...what do u suggest?
Fathertime!

[Boethius]

Weakening Kyiv's power would not be a good thing.  What would happen is an oligarch would take control of the region completely.   

[Boethius]

Isn't that exactly what is going on now? Anyway, I'll let this sleeping dog lie over this beaten path...

No, the EU didn't send soldiers to Donetsk, or Kyiv, or L'viv.

[Muzh]

Let me assist u a little muzh...first u need to lookup what a federation is...then u will see that Ukraine being federated does not mean that they aren't still one country.  As it stands things r falling apart so negotiating or Ukrainians fighting are the options.  I'm sure u have some 'wise' ideas for a solution.  Haha
Fathertime!

LMFAO


You are definitely a ball buster. You can't be that dim. Heh, heh, heh


You are most probably thinking of what some people want to do here; have states be under the protective umbrella of the US government but do whatever they please, including shit against the country's best interest as a whole.


That kind of federation, right?


Let's hear the Teapartiers.

[fathertime]

LMFAO


You are definitely a ball buster. You can't be that dim. Heh, heh, heh


You are most probably thinking of what some people want to do here; have states be under the protective umbrella of the US government but do whatever they please, including shit against the country's best interest as a whole.


That kind of federation, right?


Let's hear the Teapartiers.

Oh stop being such a sillyhead.  The USA is not the model of a federation regarding Ukraine.   It continues to appear that there is genuine discord in Ukraine.  If that continues to be the case then granting different regions a little more autonomy seems like a reasonable solution. ..better than what is likely to happen otherwise....I'm sure you have a 'wise' all-encompassing solution and are just cruelly withholding it while people die daily.
Fathertime!

[Boethius]

It continues to appear that there is genuine discord in Ukraine.

The only discord is that created by the terrorists and their backers.

[Muzh]

Oh stop being such a sillyhead.  The USA is not the model of a federation regarding Ukraine.   It continues to appear that there is genuine discord in Ukraine.  If that continues to be the case then granting different regions a little more autonomy seems like a reasonable solution. ..better than what is likely to happen otherwise....I'm sure you have a 'wise' all-encompassing solution and are just cruelly withholding it while people die daily.
Fathertime!

In what parallel universe do you live?


The only genuine discord within Ukraine is coming from Russian invaders. And they don't count when making decisions for Ukraine. The only reasonable solution is to expel seditious elements from the country. Or are you the type who would welcome a jihadist to your home and ask the US government for an equitable solution that would be satisfactory for the jihadist? Seems to me that is what you are advocating.


In a certain way Ukrainians should be thankful for Putin. This man managed to unite a country that was in the brink of dissolution.

[Faux Pas]

Seriously I read your post and you basically are saying nothing.  That is fine. ..I agree that we should do nothing.  Obama is a lot closer to your position than the other candidates woyld have been...I think you are just picking on him outta dislike.   I'm not his fan either but he is not doin a horrible job so far on this issue as he has not made a stupid move like put our troops in there

Fathertime!

Fathertime!

FT, that is because you have proven time and again that you are not able to comprehend anything on this matter other that some lame scenario(s) in your head. I never said we should do nothing. I said we shouldn't IMHO send troops. I said plenty in that post, your inability to understand it isn't my problem. That inability you have proven over and over gain to be your personal handicap. It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation on this matter with you as a result. Your "it's all the "us, we, our" fault is bullshit and that seems to be the only conclusion you are capable of recognizing

[fathertime]

FT, that is because you have proven time and again that you are not able to comprehend anything on this matter other that some lame scenario(s) in your head. I never said we should do nothing. I said we shouldn't IMHO send troops. I said plenty in that post, your inability to understand it isn't my problem. That inability you have proven over and over gain to be your personal handicap. It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation on this matter with you as a result. Your "it's all the "us, we, our" fault is bullshit and that seems to be the only conclusion you are capable of recognizing

I am capable of recognizing when someone says nothing with a lot if words...your post qualifies. You would have us do nothing much..very similar to obama...you just won't admit it

Clearly Obama can do no right from your warped viewpoint.

Fathertime!

[Muzh]

I am capable of recognizing when someone says nothing with a lot if words...your post qualifies. You would have us do nothing much..very similar to obama...you just won't admit it

Clearly Obama can do no right from your warped viewpoint.

Fathertime!

When I read this, this is the mental picture I had.

[fathertime]

The only discord is that created by the terrorists and their backers.

The evidence appears to show that you and muzh are not correct when you insist that it is only Russians. .there is internal turmoil as well.

Fathertime!

[Boethius]

Please provide that evidence. 


There was no call for separation from Kyiv by locals.  The "Donetsk People's Republic" was proclaimed not by Ukrainians living in Donetsk, but by Borodai, a Russian citizen, resident of Moscow, who made the proclamation and proclaimed himself leader of that republic.

I have provided numerous links, and videos, of people in regions liberated by the Ukrainian military who denounce the terrorists.  I have provided links to polls, taken before Borodai and Russians came to the region and proclaimed themselves its "saviours", which prove that the majority of the residents of those regions (80%) did not want to separate from Ukraine. 


You, OTOH, make pronouncements with no back up.  So, show me the proof of what you assert. 

[fathertime]

You have continued to maintain that it is only Russians causing the havoc.  I only have my phone currently but this evening I shall have a full screen in frint of me and can provide links.

Fathertime!

[Boethius]

No, I have not stated only Russians caused the havoc.  I have in the past stated the conflict was created by Ukrainian oligarchs. 


The point is, this is not a popular uprising by the locals.  It has been coordinated, and paid for, by others, including Russia.

[Muzh]

The evidence appears to show that you and muzh are not correct when you insist that it is only Russians. .there is internal turmoil as well.

Fathertime!

Just for you.


Live from Burbank California...

[fathertime]

MY POST

The evidence appears to show that you and muzh are not correct when you insist that it is only Russians. .there is internal turmoil as well.

Fathertime!

YOUR POST:

Please provide that evidence. 
........

   
You,OTOH, make pronouncements with no back up.  So, show me the proof of what you assert. 

MY POST:

You have continued to maintain that it is only Russians causing the havoc.  I only have my phone currently but this evening I shall have a full screen in frint of me and can provide links.

Fathertime!

YOUR POST:

No, I have not stated only Russians caused the havoc.  I have in the past stated the conflict was created by Ukrainian oligarchs. 


The point is, this is not a popular uprising by the locals.  It has been coordinated, and paid for, by others, including Russia.

You have moved the goalposts.   


1st I say that there is some involvement by local Ukrianians and you say PROVE IT...then when I say I can...then you move the goalposts, into something I already agree with for the most part..nice tactic.   


Fathertime!   

[roykirk]

The point is, this is not a popular uprising by the locals.  It has been coordinated, and paid for, by others, including Russia.

Thank you for mentioning that.  It's always good to see there are rational thinkers out there, regardless of the "side" they're on.  My wife has tried to remain mostly neutral on this topic, but she's also not able to just let someone talk BS and not call them on it.  When she was in Russia last month she was talking with a couple of friends who mentioned this "local uprising" and how horrible it was that the Ukrainian military was murdering old men, women, and children, who were simply taking up whatever arms they had to protect themselves.  My wife asked, "when was the last time you saw Ukrainian children and old men driving tanks and shooting anti-aircraft missiles?  Did they keep these in the barn?"  What followed then was my wife being berated for "hating" Russia.  The blind hysteria would be funny if there weren't so many horrible things happening because of it. 

[Gator]

Fathertime,

It is clear that you know little about the FSU and particularly its politics.  That is understandable given that your wife is from Latin America.  The rest of us have spouses from the FSU and have spent time there.  We have read about the history, we have conversed with FSU citizens about politics, etc. 

Some basic facts for you:

-  Many Russians look down on Ukrainians.

-  Russia has long treated Ukraine as a vassal state.

-  Independence is new in the long history of Ukraine.  Many of its citizens cherish its independence, want to keep it, and recognize that to escape Russia's stranglehold Ukraine must develop closer relations with Europe.

-  Putin is an imperialist.

-  Putin will do anything not to lose face and will not allow the separatists to lose  (the US State Dept  has stated it has new evidence showing Russia is 1) sending the rebels "heavier and more powerful"  rocket launchers as in Muzh's video and 2) firing artillery from Russia into Ukrainian military positions). 
l

[Boethius]

1st I say that there is some involvement by local Ukrianians and you say PROVE IT...then when I say I can...then you move the goalposts, into something I already agree with for the most part..nice tactic.   

I didn't say the oligarchs were locals.


The goal post is, and always has been, to demonstrate that the average person living in Ukraine, the old women, the parents of the children roykirk mentioned, support separation.