Russian military is not Prepared for any real War

[ronin308]

On Osama, we funded and supplied training to the Pakistanis who actually supported his jihad forces in Afghanistan.  This was done in such a way that Osama or any of the jihadists knew we were supporting them.

I agree that our government isn't lily white but neither is Russia, as the controlling element of the Soviet Union they have supported many violently repressive governments similiar to what the US has done.

As to arms sales, the US has traditionally supplied arms to those countries that it calls it's allies.  Turkey has been a member of NATO since 1952 and as such we have a long history of arms sales to them, including advanced fighter jets.  The same is true of Korea, since we helped repluse North Korea's attempt to "integrate" the 2 countries which was supported by both China and Russia BTW.

We have not supplied Syria with arms nor would we do so.  We will continue to sell arms to those countries who we feel are in our interests just like the USSR does now.

As to going into Afghanistan for oil and gas, that's kind of funny.  For example the "big" pipeline that Michael Moore alluded to in his documentary film is actually being constructed by and for european firms not the US.  I do agree that we had better methods of taking out Ossma but that the invasion of Afghanistan was to do 2 things:

1. Appeal to the redneck bloodlust many people had after 9-11, in a way I think Iraq was also done for this reason.

2. Deny terrorists free reign over an area they can use to train and assemble. 

Of our troop losses in Iraq, I find it funny that the very people who made a big deal about the 3000 people lost during 9-11 now say that 2000 soldiers dead isn't a big deal.  Especially when the 2000 dead soldiers have done very little to ensure that a similiar attack won't happen again.  We still have many of the same problems with our security that we have had prior to 9-11.  As a frequent flier and someone who supports aviation security as a part of what we do I can tell you that you are no more secure today than you were prior to 9-11.

[Rvrwind]

Ooops My fault, got the countries mixed up, should have been India not Turkey.

Why don't they just put in those big friggin' xray machines I see in the movies that xray you to the bone & find anything your carrying or is that stiill sci fi?

Arnold Swartzineger had to go through one when he arrived on Mars in the movie Recall. Seems to me that is the perfect solution. Costly but isn't our safety worth it?.... I know I'm watchin' way too much television:(.

RVR_Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[Oosik]

"Millions for defense, not one penny for tribute"

Losing 2,000 men in battle (while inflicting many 10's of thousands of enemy casualties) beats the hell out out losing 3,000 civilian sitting ducks.

The middle east is a cesspool that needs cleaning. It has been festering too long, and for much of that with most industrialized nations going along with it in return for some small level of "stability". We are paying for it now, but the job needs doing. What we don't need is Putin trying to continue cold war gamesmanship over there, or the French trying to peddle influence. The cesspool needs scrubbing and the light of day.

The added (but not PC) benefit is our army is well seasoned. Each conflict teaches lessons in everything from logistics to how many powerbars to carry in your pocket. Not to mention how to kill and not be killed.

[BC]

We aren't attached to city sewer line.. I just looked and our cesspool could use cleaning.. you name it there's all kinds of poop down there.. volunteers appreciated for this good cause.

[Lysander]

My guess is we may end up being as seasoned as the Soviet Army circa  1989, who also killed 10s of thousands -actually millions- of the  'enemy;' primarily a civillian population. Remember the Pentagon  insisting for months there were only 5000 insurgents? How many 10s of  thousands can you kill out of 5k?  The Army spent years recovering  from the Vietnam battle hardening. I guess we have to go through it one  more time. Now the U.S. Millitary will for the Forseable future be able  to defeat any conventional army. No one is denying that. But dodging  roadside bombs isn't a particularly rewarding learning curve.

Also, how did we get in the business of "cesspool cleaning?"

Any country that contrives a bogus reason to launch an unprovoked  attack on another country, engages in bad faith, Ribbentrop style  "diplomacy" insisting that it wants a peaceful solution, while having  already decided on war, has its own cesspools to clean.

Best Wishes,
Lysander

[jb]

 Lysander,

Please tell us about your military experience. What stratigies did you learn, how would you would go about combating the terrorist?  I'd really like to hear from an expert.

[Lysander]

jb,

I have zero millitary experience and make no claims at all to being a  strategic thinker. Still, I think it makes sense to fight those who  attacked us rather than those who didn't....and Iraq didn't.

If we had waited for Vietnam to attack us, I'm guessing we would still  be waiting. But then again, not having been in the millitary, how could  I possibly know?

[Bruno]

 Lysander,

Please tell us about your military experience. What stratigies did you learn, how would you would go about combating the terrorist?  I'd really like to hear from an expert.

JB, be honest, the actual method used by USA, with big fanfare don't remove or combat terrorist...

The only one good method is these who was used by Israel... some intelligence report, a sniper... and a bullet in the head of the terrorist... cheap, fast, clean...

Afghanistan... a war for find Ben Laden... result of this is a total of several thousand of dead from both side and the number one terrorist is always running... a good terrorist is a dead terrorist... but killing innocent feed the hate and create new terrorist...

Don't use a Army for fight terrorist... it is not a usual conflit from a army against a other... Where is the CIA, FBI for information report... a group of good navy seals can kill more terrorist in one night with the good info that a tank bataillon during one year who don't know where to shoot ...

 

[jb]

That's right, you have no opinion other than "I hate war",,, trust me on this, no one hates war more than the men who have actually waged war,,, been there, done that.

Still, there are times when one must suck it up, swallow the bile, and fight, and this is such a time.   Islamicist want to destroy our way of life, perhaps you agree with them.  But I think it's time to knuckle down and destroy their way of life. That's the only thing they will understand, power and force.

[Admin]

That's right, you have no opinion other than "I hate war",,, trust me on this, no one hates war more than the men who have actually waged war,,, been there, done that.

Still, there are times when one must suck it up, swallow the bile, and fight, and this is such a time.  Islamicist want to destroy our way of life, perhaps you agree with them. But I think it's time to knuckle down and destroy their way of life. That's the only thing they will understand, power and force.

John,

I started to respond with my own views of this issue, which are different than yours. Then I opted to give credence to what Leslie always chastises me for doing - and that is participating in topics which are likely to need moderation - so I am separating the two.

Comments about terrorism are fair game - particularly as they impact on the FSU and our wives/girlfriends/etc.

Extrapolating terrorist activities as a condemnation of the Islamic religion is NOT fair game, and is only likely to result in a conflagration of opinion.

Let's stop it here, before it goes any further.

- Dan (wearing my Moderator hat on this one)

[jb]

Ok, Dan, if they are not Islamicist, what can we call them and not get into trouble?

[Admin]

Ok, Dan, if they are not Islamicist, what can we call them and not get into trouble?

Terrorists.

- Dan

[jb]

You are picking pin feathers here

[Admin]

You are picking pin feathers here

No, I am not.

Terrorism does not equate to Islam.

Nuff on the topic.

- Dan

[Oosik]

Just to clarify, as you may not be familiar with the distinction Dan.
Islamic is the religion.

Islamicist is when you wish to force Islam on the world.

Islamicist is an acceptable way to describe the terrorists, as they are using violence to force Islam on everyone, but Islamic includes all Muslims, peaceful and otherwise.

I have heard moderate muslim talking heads on TV use the term.

[Admin]

Just to clarify, as you may not be familiar with the distinction Dan.
Islamic is the religion.

Islamicist is when you wish to force Islam on the world.

Islamicist is an acceptable way to describe the terrorists, as they are using violence to force Islam on everyone, but Islamic includes all Muslims, peaceful and otherwise.

I have heard moderate muslim talking heads on TV use the term.

I know the word Islamicist. It does NOT equate to terrorist.

- Dan

[ronin308]

Dan with the current events caused by the Dutch paper, a great percent of Islam can be lumped into at least the fanatic category.  After all I haven't heard of Christians burning embassies because god or Jesus wasn't depicted fairly.  Listen to speaches given by the current leader of Iran, he seems to love to dish it out but cannot take it.  That's all I'll say on the matter.

Rvr, you won't see "xray" machines for people for the same reason the dentist puts a lead lined apron on your chest.  The potential health risks for xrays are too high.

However you are finding an increasing use of MRI in security technologies as well as "sniffers".  Case in point several airports in the US now have sniffer devices where selectees walk in, airbursts "puff" them and the chemicals from their body are analyzed.  In a matter of seconds you know if they have explosives on their bodies or not. 

The most important security measures though is human intelligence.  Unfortunately wars like Iraq help to undermine the "humint" angle as we continue to generate bad faith even to moderate islamic countries as well as the rest of the world.

Elen's paranoia of the US invading and taking over Siberia might be well founded until you look at recent events.  With the exception of the last Iraqi war the US has always returned any "conquered" territory once the war was over.  We did this after WWII and most recently the Kuwait war.  Unforunately after WWII most of the countries "liberated" by the Soviet Union magically turned into sattelite states that may as well been run from the Kremlin. 

Once again we have the 3000 "civilian" casualties vs military casualties inflicted in Iraq and the fact that we have killed so many "terrorists".  Most thinking people would realize that many of the "terrorists" never would have existed if the US had stayed out of Iraq.  So in fact we have lost over 2000 military dead to make the problem worse.

While I feel that the war in Iraq has severely hampered our domestic security agenda now that we are there we need to ensure that after our pullout some level of stability will exist. 

[Lysander]

There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. I doubt all, or even  0.01% of them, are  terrorists. At any rate, Saddam's Bathists  were a secular government that kept Islamic Fundementalists on a very  tight leash. Since the U.S. invasion, they have been unleashed, ideed  democraticly so.

I personally have no problem with Your (jb) Arab/Muslim/French bashing.  As far as I'm concerned, you can speak your mind so long as you respect  others' right to disagree.

As it's Dan's board, I have no problem doing it his way. We can take  this up again in the No-Holds-Barred section at some future date, and  in accordance with board rules.

No ill will born to anybody.

Lysander

[jb]

Frankly, to me the words are synonymous, horses of the same paint job. We have to be able to identify our enemies, by whatever they call themselves, even if they don't wear a similar uniform. 

Dan, you run the risk of becoming a flaming liberal with talk like that.  Get this through your head, we are at war with terror, the terrorists are Islamic radicals.  That's the nature of the beast.  It's ok to call a spade a spade, Islamicist is not a bad or wrong word, it merely describes our enemy. 

Get over it.

[Lysander]

Just one last post on how one-time bitter enemies can become almost  friends. I can't seem to cut and paste on here but I encourage everyone  to go to www.csmonitor.com and click on "Military Ties Warm Between  U.S., Vietnam"

[Admin]

Frankly, to me the words are synonymous, horses of the same paint job. We have to be able to identify our enemies, by whatever they call themselves, even if they don't wear a similar uniform.

Dan, you run the risk of becoming a flaming liberal with talk like that. Get this through your head, we are at war with terror, the terrorists are Islamic radicals. That's the nature of the beast. It's ok to call a spade a spade, Islamicist is not a bad or wrong word, it merely describes our enemy.

Get over it.

Noone who knows me would call me anything close to "liberal."

But then again - this board is not the place to air those issues - nor is it the proper venue to enter the debate.

It simply does not belong here.

- Dan

[jb]

Lysander,

What's your point?  That former enemies could become allies?   That describes all of the Axis Powers after WWII, they are all now members of NATO  or SEATO

The world politic changes, get used to it.  What does not change is ideology, either you subscribe to a democratic world view, or you don't.  If an Islamic theocratic domination of the world is what was promised to you in the Koran, and you like that idea, then you are my enemy, I do not subscribe to that idea. You are, for all intents, another potential terrorist in my view.

We can each have our own religion, my religion says we don't lop off heads for imagined infractions of religious law, your's does.  Somewhere along the line we have to sort out who is civilized and who is not. 

I would argue this point with anyone.

[jb]

But then again - this board is not the place to air those issues - nor is it the proper venue to enter the debate.

Dan, I love you like a brother,  but you are wrong.  We are at war, thus, I think we have to stand united together against the common foe.  Division is what the enemy looks for to make us bicker amonst ourselves.  At every opportunity, we have to support our troops, and be resolute in our stand against terrorism. 

Please do not weaken in the face of PC.  A board like this is as good a place as any to stand up and be counted. It is not a sin to be patriotic.

Edit:  God Bless America, God damn the Islamicist and their terror campaign.  We will not weaken.

[Admin]

Dan, I love you like a brother, but you are wrong. We at war, thus I think we have to stand united together against the common foe. Division is what the enemy looks for to make us bicker amonst ourselves. At every opportunity, we have to support our troops, and be resolute in our stand against terrorism.

Please do not weaken in the face of PC. A board like this is as good a place as any to stand up and be counted.

God Bless America~!

John,

There are other, more suitable, venues for airing this particular debate.

This isn't about being PC or not. We have developed a venue which is organized around the exchange of information pertaining to women from the FSU. Topics far afield from that, are better discussed in venues which are organized properly to address them.

I recognize that emotions run particularly high when world events overwhelm our little corner of the 'inet - and they are certainly running high with the recent events in Muslim countries and western Embassies - but that doesn't make us any better equipped nor effective at dealing with those issues here.

FWIW

- Dan

[Oosik]

Lysander,

You should do a little basic research before you post ridiculous numbers like only .01% of mulsims are fanatics. In recent polling, the numbers of people who support terrorism have dropped, but in most muslim countries, the support for killing christian and jewish civilians is still huge. 57% of people in Jordan approve, and they are a moderate country!!  That is enough of the muslim population that one cannot delink the Islamic or Islamicist prefix from the word terrorist to describe them. Putting them in the same category of terrorist as the IRA or environmental whackos is just silly.

And Lysander, comparing us to "Ribbentrop" is completely uncalled for. Same as comparing us to the soviets in Afganistan.  Try to base your arguments on facts, not on your moonbat politics. Read what I clip below, and when you see how grossly wrong you are on the % of muslims who support terrorism, please reflect on how the rest of your opinions are just as devoid of fact and reason.
**********
...Support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence against civilian targets had "declined significantly," Pew reported.

But the new figures show that 57 of respondents in Jordan said such acts were justified "often/sometimes." Another 31 percent said "rarely" and only 11 percent said "never."

In Pakistan "only" one-in-four respondents support suicide bombings "often/sometimes," said Pew, down from 33 percent in 2002.

In Lebanon, too, the figure had dropped significantly, from 73 percent supporting suicide bombings "often/sometimes" in 2002. Nonetheless, 39 percent of respondents in the new poll still hold that view.

The "often/sometimes" group for the remaining three countries surveyed was also larger than 10 percent in each case (Indonesia, 15 percent; Turkey, 14 percent; and Morocco, 13 percent).

When it came to suicide bombings targeting the U.S. and its allies in Iraq, those believing them to be justifiable ranged from almost one-quarter (24 percent) in Turkey to more than one-in-two (56 percent) in Morocco.

Asked how much confidence they had in bin Laden doing "the right thing regarding world affairs," only 10 percent of respondents in Indonesia, 12 percent in Pakistan and 18 percent in Jordan responded "none." In Morocco the figure was 40, in Turkey 73 and in Lebanon 78.

The percentage of those who said they had "a lot/some" confidence in the al-Qaeda terrorist leader were: Jordan 60 percent, Pakistan 51, Indonesia 35, Morocco 26, Turkey 7 and Lebanon 2...

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=ForeignBureausarchive200507FOR20050715b.html