The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[fathertime]

Sanctions don't work. The world's response to Russia pertaining to the MH17 disaster was weak. Putin understands this so he makes more moves. The first response should have been a strong response. That's the only thing Putin will respect.

I believe Billy is correct regarding the sanctions.  Russia can survive and weather sanctions if they have to.  Where I differ with Billy is on the early strong response.  I think that would have led to a full scale war, as I don't think Russia was bluffing.  If we had dropped troops or something of the like early, it would have been looked at worldwide as premature and way too aggressive...especially given our recent history...not to mention there would have been no stomach for that response with the American people. 


Fathertime! 

[lonedrake]

Where I differ with Billy is on the early strong response.  I think that would have led to a full scale war, as I don't think Russia was bluffing.  If we had dropped troops or something of the like early, it would have been looked at worldwide as premature and way too aggressive...especially given our recent history...not to mention there would have been no stomach for that response with the American people. 

Billy was talking about the worlds response to MH17, not Americas response. He is absolutely correct.  America did not have as much right/claim to investigate the disaster as much as other countries did. 

So who held up a rapid response team? Australia was ready to go....so I doubt it was them. Ukraine is at war with the separatists. So that leaves the Dutch or Malaysia.

What would the separatists/russia do? Declare war on the international community?  Russia was in no position to impede an inter nation rapid response team at the MH17 crash site. It would have been disasterous for Russia to do so.

[fathertime]

Billy was talking about the worlds response to MH17, not Americas response. He is absolutely correct.  America did not have as much right/claim to investigate the disaster as much as other countries did. 

So who held up a rapid response team? Australia was ready to go....so I doubt it was them. Ukraine is at war with the separatists. So that leaves the Dutch or Malaysia.

What would the separatists/russia do? Declare war on the international community?  Russia was in no position to impede an inter nation rapid response team at the MH17 crash site. It would have been disasterous for Russia to do so.

Hey Lonedrake...I just reread Billy's post...you are correct he was referring to MH17...my mistake. 


Fathertime!   

[AC]

You forgot to give the percentage of the far right parties and persons in Russia.   

[Boethius]

Our tiny country was once invaded by nazis. They fought as good as they could, sinking a war ship, getting the 50 tons of gold out of the country and some fought a resistance fight based from England and Sweden. By Your definition, I Guess they could be called terrorists.

It is a poor analogy. 


If 104 of your countrymen fought against your government sitting in Oslo, and were joined by thousands of Swedes, who tortured, murdered, and robbed the locals, and proclaimed areas of Norway an independent republic, with a self appointed Swedish prime minister who had never lived in Norway, you would then have a comparable analogy.

[Boethius]

I'm glad to know you're aware of it then...

The question now is, why would a reforming government even sanction such a group while negotiating a cease fire/peace treaty? Do you think the formation of such a renegade armed group in Ukraine, with approval of the government, sporting violent sentiments known to everyone is really a recipe for progress?

THAT was my point.

They predate the negotiations.  You fight fire with fire.  It is tragic, but trure.

As for your position on my links, if you don't like them, you can scroll over them.  They are not random, and are intended to provide information which is lacking, based on what I read on the forum.

[GQBlues]

You fight fire with fire.  It is tragic, but trure.

@BoethiusRWD Oh I see! Well, it's fine then #TruthinUkraine

[Shadow]

They predate the negotiations.  You fight fire with fire.  It is tragic, but trure.

As for your position on my links, if you don't like them, you can scroll over them.  They are not random, and are intended to provide information which is lacking, based on what I read on the forum.

The links are providing misinformation, which is not lacking at all here.

[Boethius]

Prove that any link I have provided is misinformation.

[Shadow]

Prove that any link I have provided is misinformation.

Not my job. Spead lies as much as you want.

[Boethius]

You asserted my links are misinformation.  They are not.  Every one of my links has been reported by at least two sources, one of them Western based.  Therefore, if you are going to claim they are lies, please provide the evidence that they are.

[Shadow]

You asserted my links are misinformation.  They are not.  Every one of my links has been reported by at least two sources, one of them Western based.  Therefore, if you are going to claim they are lies, please provide the evidence that they are.

Once again, not my job. To find two or more biased sources is incredibly easy.
Perhaps you will be so kind as to follow the sources of your own links and see what subtance they contain.
Or accept that they are equally reliabe as Russia Today.

[Boethius]

No, I don't accept that.  You have a problem accepting the truth.

[Boethius]

A link containing information from a Russian economist.  Where is the bias?


http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/25/putin-in-july-or-the-fight-for-russias-soul/


A link from the NYT.  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372294#msg372294   I noted Russia denies the claims.  Where is the bias?


A link from an interview with Strelkov by a Russian reporter.   Where is the bias?


 http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372280#msg372280


A link on a mass grave found the Ukrainian forces. 
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372257#msg372257   Show the bias.


The above, BTW, corresponds with the reports of wounded soldiers in Kyiv.  My SIL has spoken to them.  She is completely apolitical.   Or is she lying and biased as well?

[Shadow]

A link containing information from a Russian economist.  Where is the bias?


http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/25/putin-in-july-or-the-fight-for-russias-soul/

Read the first line. It shows the person writing is already biased.

A link from the NYT.  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372294#msg372294   I noted Russia denies the claims.  Where is the bias?

Kiev says. No bias?

A link from an interview with Strelkov by a Russian reporter.   Where is the bias?


 http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372280#msg372280

One again from Kiev sources Where is the non-bias?

A link on a mass grave found the Ukrainian forces. 
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372257#msg372257   Show the bias.


The above, BTW, corresponds with the reports of wounded soldiers in Kyiv.  My SIL has spoken to them.  She is completely apolitical.   Or is she lying and biased as well?

Euromaidan is what you believe to be in unbiased site? Says enough.

[Boethius]

Read the first line. It shows the person writing is already biased.

Read the entire piece.  What I noted from the article was what Russian economists stated would occur to their economy were sanctions introduced.  Or are they biased too?.

Kiev says. No bias?

Not the point.  I noted in my link that Russia denied it.

One again from Kiev sources Where is the non-bias?Euromaidan is what you believe to be in unbiased site? Says enough.

As I noted, reported by Western reporters as well, and has been repeated by wounded Ukrainian soldiers returning from the front.  Their stories are worse, in fact.


ETA- Euromaidan press just translates articles from various sources.  Yesterday, they translated a piece from a Russian paper on the Ukrainian refugees - the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[Muzh]

Read the first line. It shows the person writing is already biased.
Kiev says. No bias?
One again from Kiev sources Where is the non-bias?Euromaidan is what you believe to be in unbiased site? Says enough.

This line of reasoning is very interesting.


No exact proof of Russian meddling (i.e., denying events that happened) means that:


a) Russian didn't do it
b) Ukrainians have to prove beyond the benefit of the doubt
c) the USA did it
d) the Ukrainians plausibly did it
e) the Dutch most probably did it.


Now, will I get moderated for this?

[Shadow]

This line of reasoning is very interesting.


No exact proof of Russian meddling (i.e., denying events that happened) means that:


a) Russian didn't do it
b) Ukrainians have to prove beyond the benefit of the doubt
c) the USA did it
d) the Ukrainians plausibly did it
e) the Dutch most probably did it.


Now, will I get moderated for this?

Who would moderate you?

[Shadow]

Read the entire piece.  What I noted from the article was what Russian economists stated would occur to their economy were sanctions introduced.  Or are they biased too?.

Not the point.  I noted in my link that Russia denied it.

As I noted, reported by Western reporters as well, and has been repeated by wounded Ukrainian soldiers returning from the front.  Their stories are worse, in fact.


ETA- Euromaidan press just translates articles from various sources.  Yesterday, they translated a piece from a Russian paper on the Ukrainian refugees - the good, the bad, and the ugly.

As much as you try to defend, you are the one providing links to there as what you seem to find reliable sources.
If I were to post a link to some rubbish accusation that RT is making with a note that Kiev is denying it, would that make for an unbiased link?

[Muzh]

Who would moderate you?

Oh, I don't know. But I believe the culprit resembles this guy

[Shadow]

Oh, I don't know. But I believe the culprit resembles this guy

Never seen that as avatar of one of the mods.

[Doll]

В Одессе беседуют два еврея:

- Моня, я за нашу Украину шо-то совсем не пойму... Мине все твердят, шо мы воюем з Россией!

- И шо?

- Таки на сегодняшний день результаты украино-российской войны - неутешительны.

Потери Украины: 7 танков, 1 самоходная гаубица, 10 бронемашин, 1 вертолёт и 1 самолет.

Сдалось в плен более 2 миллионов человек...

- И шо ты думаешь?..

- А то, шо Российская армия на войну так до сих пор и не явилась!.. 

 

[Muzh]

As much as you try to defend, you are the one providing links to there as what you seem to find reliable sources.
If I were to post a link to some rubbish accusation that RT is making with a note that Kiev is denying it, would that make for an unbiased link?

Do you think this link as reliable as RT?

[Muzh]

Is this one any good, Doll?

[Muzh]

How about this one?