The Struggle For Ukraine

[Boethius]

If I were a foreign investor, I'd be uninterested in investing in the US or Europe going forward.   Foreign investment is one of the keys to the US economy.  A lot of our taxes are paid by foreigners who invest in our real estate, stocks, and projects.  We don't make very much stuff here in the states to export, so this was one of the ways to recapture some of the money we hemorrhage on imports. 

Chinese, Russian, Indian among others may reconsider investing here and stick to investing in their home countries.  I think the idea WAS to invest some of their assets here in the states to diversify their portfolios.  The US is proving to be an unsafe place to invest, as assets can be seized suddenly.  This is a complaint I often hear about investing in the 3rd world, that laws can change overnight, and you suddenly lose everything.   

I will be curious to see if there is a long-term effect from US and EU policy.   

Sanctioned Russian billionaire banker Mikhail Fridman was locked out of the private-equity firm he cofounded and staff were told to ignore him, report says

.....Russian billionaire and banker, Mikhail Fridman, was locked out of the investment firm he cofounded after he was hit by European Union sanctions, the company announced on Wednesday.....

....Fridman's assets in the company were "effectively frozen" and his rights as a shareholder were taken away, LetterOne's press release said. He won't receive dividends, funds, or communications in any way, said LetterOne.....

http://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/sanctioned-billionaire-russian-banker-mikhail-105222192.html 

Fathertime!

I guess I would be afraid were I a foreigner who supported a kleptocratic, authoritarian regime.  Were I an honest person who didn't support murderous regimes, I suspect I'd have no issues.

[Boethius]

Since you quoted my words, I went back and reviewed the context it was stated in to see if I was incorrect.   Turns out it was stated in a context I can stand behind.   You can label as "Victim" or appeal to hypocrisy, but that doesn't mean it isn't accurate.   Russia is indeed at a SEVERE DISADVANTAGE as it pertains to being able to inflict harm through sanctions.  That isn't a route they can take (At this time).  In this particular case they tried intimidation before massive attacks, but that didn't work, in part because the West had been pumping up Ukraine. 

I can't express how much I disagree with the bolded part above.


Let's go back to Donbas.  Why did it explode?  Because of a language law.  A law the West did not support.  The EU, in particular, is very strong on minority language rights. 


How has "the West" been pumping up Ukraine?  It hasn't.  It's true, the West trained Ukrainians in activism and democratic principles, but it also trained them in how to open banks, run hospitals, etc.  But the democracy in Ukraine was homegrown.  It was never imposed by the West.  There are about 10 million people of Ukrainian descent living in Western countries, and many of their parents and grandparents were fighting for Ukrainian independence and democracy when Ukraine was still part of the USSR.  So when the Soviet Union collapsed, many of them went to Ukraine, to aid in establishing a working government and civil life.  They underestimated the problems, but they did aid, with significant funding from the US government, in creating a stable, democratic state. 


Ukraine's democracy is young, and is rife with corruption and inefficiency.  But unlike in Russia, people there were not afraid to criticize elected officials.  Unlike in Russia, they could demonstrate freely, whenever they wished.


I do not believe for a moment that the invasion of Ukraine is about NATO.  It was because Ukraine was at a turning point as a nation.  Having a truly democratic nation next door was the threat to Russia.  Not NATO.

[Admin]

I can't express how much I disagree with the bolded part above.


Let's go back to Donbas.  Why did it explode?  Because of a language law.  A law the West did not support.  The EU, in particular, is very strong on minority language rights. 


How has "the West" been pumping up Ukraine?  It hasn't.  It's true, the West trained Ukrainians in activism and democratic principles, but it also trained them in how to open banks, run hospitals, etc.  But the democracy in Ukraine was homegrown.  It was never imposed by the West.  There are about 10 million people of Ukrainian descent living in Western countries, and many of their parents and grandparents were fighting for Ukrainian independence and democracy when Ukraine was still part of the USSR.  So when the Soviet Union collapsed, many of them went to Ukraine, to aid in establishing a working government and civil life.  They underestimated the problems, but they did aid, with significant funding from the US government, in creating a stable, democratic state. 


Ukraine's democracy is young, and is rife with corruption and inefficiency.  But unlike in Russia, people there were not afraid to criticize elected officials.  Unlike in Russia, they could demonstrate freely, whenever they wished.


I do not believe for a moment that the invasion of Ukraine is about NATO.  It was because Ukraine was at a turning point as a nation.  Having a truly democratic nation next door was the threat to Russia.  Not NATO.

While often condemned nowadays as anachronistic or idealized, there remain some fundamental truths. One of which is that Communist ideology conflicts with and is threatened by Democratic ideology.

[GQBlues]

If I were a foreign investor, I'd be uninterested in investing in the US or Europe going forward.   Foreign investment is one of the keys to the US economy.  A lot of our taxes are paid by foreigners who invest in our real estate, stocks, and projects.  We don't make very much stuff here in the states to export, so this was one of the ways to recapture some of the money we hemorrhage on imports. 

Chinese, Russian, Indian among others may reconsider investing here and stick to investing in their home countries.  I think the idea WAS to invest some of their assets here in the states to diversify their portfolios.  The US is proving to be an unsafe place to invest, as assets can be seized suddenly.  This is a complaint I often hear about investing in the 3rd world, that laws can change overnight, and you suddenly lose everything. 

I will be curious to see if there is a long-term effect from US and EU policy. 

Ironically enough, this came up as a 'joke' in our meeting this morning. There has been more than a brisk influx of foreign investments to develop studios and soundstages in various SoCal locations. It's taken over residential and solar centers construction. The streaming industry is literally causing investors to trip over themselves to be the first to lure such companies as Netflix, Disney, Paramount, Sony, etc... Someone barked at the meeting, watching the seizure of all Russia-related properties and investment, how absurd this (studio development) will be with (Japan, Qatar, China, et al) would someday soon trip over the proverbial line and pissed the US off and sanction their butts and take these over.


Then someone said, under this scenario how odd will it be had China had sanctioning power and the US pissing them off. Imagine all the investment we have staked in China.

[Admin]

Ironically enough, this came up as a 'joke' in our meeting this morning. There has been more than a brisk influx of foreign investments to develop studios and soundstages in various SoCal locations. It's taken over residential and solar centers construction. The streaming industry is literally causing investors to trip over themselves to be the first to lure such companies as Netflix, Disney, Paramount, Sony, etc... Someone barked at the meeting, watching the seizure of all Russia-related properties and investment, how absurd this (studio development) will be with (Japan, Qatar, China, et al) would someday soon trip over the proverbial line and pissed the US off and sanction their butts and take these over.


Then someone said, under this scenario how odd will it be had China had sanctioning power and the US pissing them off. Imagine all the investment we have staked in China.

Are you suggesting China does NOT have "sanctioning power"?

[GQBlues]

Are you suggesting China does NOT have "sanctioning power"?

The post said: "Then SOMEONE said...

[Admin]

The post said: "Then SOMEONE said...

OK. I wanted to be sure of your intent because I didn't want readers to be given the mistaken impression that China has no sanctioning power. They have just as much as the US does. And they've used it against US firms and individuals.

[GQBlues]

OK. I wanted to be sure of your intent because I didn't want readers to be given the mistaken impression that China has no sanctioning power. They have just as much as the US does. And they've used it against US firms and individuals.

I posted the 'intent'. What else is there to be sure about? Every nation have 'sanctioning power' to serve their interest/s if they so chooses. China had exercise such with CZ, Estonia, EU et al. Not very good at it, but they do.


Anything else you'd like to be sure of?

[Boethius]

While often condemned nowadays as anachronistic or idealized, there remain some fundamental truths. One of which is that Communist ideology conflicts with and is threatened by Democratic ideology.

It doesn't have to be threatened, as in theory (though not in practice), communism has many desirable aspects.


I was reading a piece on Putin's cabinet, and the fact most were in the dark about the invasion.  What caught my eye, though, is that I believe but for one, they are all between 65 and 72.  So, in the twilight of their lives.  Yet these old men and women have zero compunction about sending 19 and 20 year old boys to die, or to kill scores of innocent Ukrainians. 

[fathertime]

I can't express how much I disagree with the bolded part above.

How has "the West" been pumping up Ukraine?  It hasn't. 
 

I was referring to the pumping up of the Ukraine military, and possibly giving them the idea, they would be fully backed up. 

Fathertime! 

[Admin]

I was referring to the pumping up of the Ukraine military, and possibly giving them the idea, they would be fully backed up. 

Fathertime!

???

[fathertime]

I do not believe for a moment that the invasion of Ukraine is about NATO.  It was because Ukraine was at a turning point as a nation.  Having a truly democratic nation next door was the threat to Russia.  Not NATO.

I think Russia is rightfully concerned they would end up with another fairly unfriendly country nearby.  A country that would work against their interests, and side with the collective state of the EU and the USA.   I am pretty sure that was going to happen at some point, 10, 20, 30 years away.   

I also would say NATO was another reason....but the top reason was the competitive disadvantage they probably thought they would find themselves getting into.
I don't think democracy itself is an important factor. 
Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

It seems that Europeans and Americans think our problem and views should be shared by everybody else on the planet.  Oftentimes if they are not shared, a sanctions regiment is threatened or rolled out.    The 'appeal to hypocrisy' seems to weigh heavier in many regions than the 'appeals to emotion'. 


Shunned by Others, Russia Finds Friends in Africa

....One of Putin’s staunchest defenders in the past week was a powerful figure in Uganda, a major customer for Russian weapons. Lt. Gen. Muhoozi Kainerugaba, son of Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni, said in a tweet: “The majority of mankind (that are nonwhite) support Russia’s stand in Ukraine.”......

.....He added, “When the USSR parked nuclear armed missiles in Cuba in 1962, the West was ready to blow up the world over it. Now when NATO does the same, they expect Russia to do differently.”.....

African sympathies for Ukraine were also diluted by reports of Ukrainian border guards forcing African students to the back of lines as they attempted to leave the country, raising a furor over racism and discrimination. President Muhammadu Buhari of Nigeria, which has 4,000 students in Ukraine, decried the reports......

  http://www.yahoo.com/news/shunned-others-russia-finds-friends-131113054.html

Fathertime! 

[Jumper1]

It seems that Europeans and Americans think our problem and views should be shared by everybody else on the planet.  Oftentimes if they are not shared, a sanctions regiment is threatened or rolled out.    The 'appeal to hypocrisy' seems to weigh heavier in many regions than the 'appeals to emotion'. 


Shunned by Others, Russia Finds Friends in Africa

....One of Putin’s staunchest defenders in the past week was a powerful figure in Uganda, a major customer for Russian weapons. Lt. Gen. Muhoozi Kainerugaba, son of Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni, said in a tweet: “The majority of mankind (that are nonwhite) support Russia’s stand in Ukraine.”......

.....He added, “When the USSR parked nuclear armed missiles in Cuba in 1962, the West was ready to blow up the world over it. Now when NATO does the same, they expect Russia to do differently.”.....

African sympathies for Ukraine were also diluted by reports of Ukrainian border guards forcing African students to the back of lines as they attempted to leave the country, raising a furor over racism and discrimination. President Muhammadu Buhari of Nigeria, which has 4,000 students in Ukraine, decried the reports......

  http://www.yahoo.com/news/shunned-others-russia-finds-friends-131113054.html

Fathertime!

Except the fact that Ukraine wasnt likely be accepted into NATO, and if so not a nuckear nation anymore and unlikely to have nuclear missles there.
Why do these pieces continually exclude Estonia and Latvia,  nato nations on russias border and not a perp about that, no nukes there either and how long have they been in NATO.

Cuba was a different time,missles were at a much greater advantage if based closer.

Is that really a talking point in 2022,when if* Russia or anyone was to be attacked in this fashion,or leveraged by threat if it, the distance the missles traveled was technically over come many years ago and is not relevant to the degree of threat.

We are being fed a line of bullshit.
They had back.pack nukes in 1980,im.quite sure this advanced significantly.
The amount  of naval  nuckear power both countries have in a single sub today , is far greater than anything discussed being put in Cuba in the 60s.

In the end you can only kill someone once, one sub would do it
All.parties involved know this well,
So again the bullshit of worrying if an nuclear missle is located 200 km away or 1000km is ridiculous at a level I cant believe the public stomachs.

Yes the defense suchcan be marginally more effective if there is slightly more.time,but that's an insane premosevto build a war off of.

I don't have the answers ,but I do know the ones we are fed are bullshit

[fathertime]

Cuba was a different time,missles were at a much greater advantage if based closer.

Is that really a talking point in 2022,when if* Russia or anyone was to be attacked in this fashion,or leveraged by threat if it, the distance the missles traveled was technically over come many years ago and is not relevant to the degree of threat.

We are being fed a line of bullshit.
They had back.pack nukes in 1980,im.quite sure this advanced significantly.
The amount  of naval  nuckear power both countries have in a single sub today , is far greater than anything discussed being put in Cuba in the 60s.

In the end you can only kill someone once, one sub would do it
All.parties involved know this well,
So again the bullshit of worrying if an nuclear missle is located 200 km away or 1000km is ridiculous at a level I cant believe the public stomachs.
 

I don't have the answers ,but I do know the ones we are fed are bullshit

These are some good points regarding NATO. 

It stills seems Russia didn't want another somewhat hostile NATO nation right there on their border.  Another nation chipping in against their interests. 

I think the more important factors are finances, and long-term resources.   

Russia sees the US with it's (Self Interested) global adventurism and wars and decides to keep up they have to do  it themselves.

Fathertime!   

[ML]

African sympathies for Ukraine were also diluted by reports of Ukrainian border guards forcing African students to the back of lines as they attempted to leave the country, raising a furor over racism and discrimination. President Muhammadu Buhari of Nigeria, which has 4,000 students in Ukraine, decried the reports......

This info is totally false.
What was happening was that Africans (also Indians) were pushing ahead of Ukrainian women and children.
Only then were they sent to the back.

[ML]

It stills seems Russia didn't want another somewhat hostile NATO nation right there on their border.  Another nation chipping in against their interests. 

This is so ridiculous I am surprised anyone would type such words.
By taking over Ukraine, Russia will have expanded the NATO countries on its border by 4:  Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania.

And by Russia's own terrorist actions, this will soon be expanded by 2 more:  Finland and Sweden.

[fathertime]

This is so ridiculous I am surprised anyone would type such words.
 

You must be new here, there have been plenty of things typed more ridiculous than this!

The result of this eruption will be more NATO perhaps, and or maybe something else....

This info is totally false.
What was happening was that Africans (also Indians) were pushing ahead of Ukrainian women and children.
Only then were they sent to the back.

If you go off of individual accountings, it seems there are some legit claims.  Or it is always possible everybody is lying.    It is hard to believe that Africans would have the audacity to push ahead of everybody else.  They already stand out as different, it would be amazingly arrogant for them to push up and create a scene like that, given the whole situation.

Fathertime!   

[ML]

   It is hard to believe that Africans would have the audacity to push ahead of everybody else.  They already stand out as different, it would be amazingly arrogant for them to push up and create a scene like that, given the whole situation.

But you are not understanding the background of many of the African (and Indian) people (mostly students in the current case).

Many (most) of them are considered the elites of their countries.
Their family money and status (Brahmins and Kshatriyas in the case of Indians) is what allows them to go to other countries to study.
They are used to being deferred to by others and feel it is their right (without even considering it) to take any actions (including to push to front of lines) to achieve whatever they want.

I have seen (by accident) their actions first hand here in USA, although  they are generally very careful to not have such actions seen by persons of authority here in USA.

To me they are super pleasant, but to shopkeepers and blue collar folks, not so.

[John Gaunt]

But you are not understanding the background of many of the African (and Indian) people (mostly students in the current case).

Many (most) of them are considered the elites of their countries.
Their family money and status (Brahmins and Kshatriyas in the case of Indians) is what allows them to go to other countries to study.
They are used to being deferred to by others and feel it is their right (without even considering it) to take any actions (including to push to front of lines) to achieve whatever they want.

I have seen (by accident) their actions first hand here in USA, although  they are generally very careful to not have such actions seen by persons of authority here in USA.

To me they are super pleasant, but to shopkeepers and blue collar folks, not so.

Umm, I disagree.

The students who go to Ukraine are those who aren’t able to get into institutions in their own country and it also costs a lot more there.
So they go to Ukraine, no highly competitive exams to get admission and much cheaper.
Caste or social status doesn’t enter into the equation.

[fathertime]

To me they are super pleasant, but to shopkeepers and blue collar folks, not so.

Indians and Africans (Nigerians) have been the most difficult people to deal with in my shop.  Nevertheless most of the time, I can square things away well enough. 

But you are not understanding the background of many of the African (and Indian) people (mostly students in the current case).

Many (most) of them are considered the elites of their countries.
Their family money and status (Brahmins and Kshatriyas in the case of Indians) is what allows them to go to other countries to study.
They are used to being deferred to by others and feel it is their right (without even considering it) to take any actions (including to push to front of lines) to achieve whatever they want.

I have seen (by accident) their actions first hand here in USA, although  they are generally very careful to not have such actions seen by persons of authority here in USA.

I'm really having a hard time believing they would push up in line ahead of all the natives.   Just doesn't seem likely.  They would be cruising for an ass-kicking, and as they stand out so dramatically to begin with, I just don't see it happening like that. 

The entitled elite part though does ring at least somewhat accurate.  I'm not there obviously...

Fathertime!   

[JohnDearGreen]

It is shown in the videos of BandB and JohnnyFD leaving Ukraine.
Indians pushing into the lines at the Railroad station.
Johnny also has an interview with some Africans.

http://www.youtube.com/c/JohnnyFD/videos

[Boethius]

I'm really having a hard time believing they would push up in line ahead of all the natives.   Just doesn't seem likely.  They would be cruising for an ass-kicking, and as they stand out so dramatically to begin with, I just don't see it happening like that. 

No, they did push ahead. This is according to most of what I've read and seen online. 


As I posted previously, Ukrainians have a particular attitude toward women and children.  So men, whether local or foreign, are always going to be behind women and children with Ukrainian border guards.  Maksym Chmerkovskiy , who apparently is on Dancing with the Stars, crossed the border.  He said he was "embarrased and ashamed", as he was the only man crossing the border. 


The scene at the border is chaotic.  Those foreign students were always going to have to wait a long time.

[Bee Farmer]

Only a complete idiot can't see the contradiction in what you are writing.   You state all Americans living abroad are 'guilty'.  (Idiotic statement), because they 'tacitly' agree with their host country's government. 
 

No, I didn't say that.  You are trying to put words in my mouth.

Anyone who lives in a foreign country, do so as a privilege extended by the host government.  They tacitly agree that they are there as a privilege and by the favor of the host government, and that privilege can be revoked should they fall out of favor of the host government.

After this, you try to demand all Russians living here in green card status be expelled or imprisoned...you say this while saying how expats tacitly approve of the government in their host country (Russians here).

I didn't say they have to approve of the host government.  They just agreed to abide by the rules that allow them to be there by privilege.

We need only to look at Switzerland.  What did they just do?  They just suspended all visas issued to Russians, except diplomatic visas.  They stated that they will not allow any Russians to be in Switzerland.

[fathertime]

Only a complete idiot can't see the contradiction in what you are writing.   You state all Americans living abroad are 'guilty'.  (Idiotic statement), because they 'tacitly' agree with their host country's government.

No, I didn't say that.  You are trying to put words in my mouth.

Yes, you are guilty of something.  You are guilty of choosing to live there.  You are guilty of tacitly agreeing with the decisions of the government there.

Seems to me YOU did make that statement.  Are you now denying it, or do you need to clarify it in some way...

Fathertime!