2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)

[BC]

MRNA? dDd you try to put something there right after the shot? From the demonstrations I've seen on the internet, the magnetism works only right after one gets the shot.

Yes, MRNA.  Just for shits and grins, when I get my second dose, I'll try to remember to take a sewing needle with me and video the syringe trying to pick up the needle.  Of course the magnetic properties should be most concentrated in pure form.  But reckon even then you'll come back stating that the second shot has some antimagnetic properties that nullify the first magnetic one or some other condition that can't be proven to keep the fallacy going.

[GQBlues]

There are plenty of emails on this. Here's an April, 2020 email where Fauci was told American money went to Wuhan for bat sampling work. While the media was ridiculing Trump and Pompeo last year for claiming the virus came from a lab and they don't listen to scientists, Fauci stayed silent. He needs to be fired. Any scientist that said the virus was natural and no way could have been made in a lab is an idiot or purposely engaged in propaganda.

http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106365983618226640

FIRED?!? The idiot should be in jail by now.


What all these really mean is, the 'hate' of anything and everything Trump, far outweighed the welfare and safety of all of us. It is not a coincidence there had been a frontal Democrat/media narrative drive to push this whole mythical 'Asian hate' BS to curb off any likely reaction to this lie.


Science knew what this virus all along. Fauci & co. helped create the shit! They knew the genome sequence all along, so the miraculous release of these vaccine aren't some 'miracle'. Even, as I'm certain, Russia was tipped to have come out with their sputnik vaccine in record time, too.

[BC]

For those that want more detail to the email being discussed, see below, including the link that is referenced.





http://reporter.nih.gov/project-details/9819304

There is nothing 'nasty' or 'smoking gun' here and the information was and still is public.

Following this type of research seems quite prudent as described in the project.  Although opinions obviously abound, there are no definitive answers.

[GQBlues]

*Nothing nasty*!


Really?!? Millions dead worldwide and you actually believe there's nothing nasty about this?


Funding gain of function experiment was suspended back in the 2015 (Obama administration) for the simple reason it was then deemed the risk outweighed the reward. But Fauci & Co. saw fit to circumvent this suspension and allowed the funds to continue.


Moreover, why when questioned during his congressional testimony, Fauci denied US complicity into the Wuhan Lab? Why didn't Fauci & Co. supported the Trump administration's that this *novel* virus is in fact an engineered virus leaked from the Wuhan lab?

[BC]

Researchers in China say they have uncovered a new batch of coronaviruses in bats that resembles the COVID-19 virus that has swept the globe.

The researchers said they collected samples from small bats that lived in forests in the Yunnan province between May 2019 and November 2020. The samples consisted of urine, feces and mouth swabs.

"In total, we assembled 24 novel coronavirus genomes from different bat species, including four SARS-CoV-2 like coronaviruses," the researchers wrote in the journal Cell.

The researchers said one strain, garnered from the Rhinolophus pusillus bat species, bears a particularly strong resemblance to SARS-CoV-2, though with differences on the spike protein that the viruses use to attach to cells they infect.

http://thehill.com/policy/international/557998-chinese-researchers-say-new-batch-of-coronaviruses-found-in-bats

GQ,

As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted.  We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.

If one puts aside the blame game for the 'source' of this strain for just a moment, and reflects about what would have happened if a research such as this had not been performed prior, along with precursor vaccines developing from this very same research, the death and toll from economic damage could have been far worse. 

Such viruses will inevitably hit us again and again and more often, lab or not, from here or there or anywhere. Hopefully we have learned from this hard lesson and we'll all take it a bit more seriously and be better prepared to take action next time which could be sooner than we think.  The 'once in a century bug' is no more. The rate of global air travel doubles per decade and this poses the greatest risk of spread.  I remember when such was a true luxury and most airport terminals no larger than a hangar today.  We may well have had even more dangerous bugs in the past but didn't notice them as there was little spread which died out without going anywhere.  If it wasn't for WWI with hundreds of thousands of troops and other folks moving around rapidly, the Spanish flu may have died out in Kansas, which even today remains the suspected origin.

Here's how Frankfurt International looked when I first landed there.



And today.

[BillyB]

There is nothing 'nasty' or 'smoking gun' here and the information was and still is public.

We just gave money to a lab in China capable of making biological weapons and their was no oversight. China can't be trusted to do things without oversight. Maybe Fauci can explain how he made sure China wasn't abusing our money to develop a military weapon for themselves? He can't explain what happened because there was no oversight. We didn't have our scientists over there watching them create a new Frankenstein virus. China wouldn't even let us over there to evaluate the behavior of the virus spreading among its people. WHO simply repeated the lie the virus wasn't human to human transferable, nothing to fear. Although Democrats are on the intelligence committee and has access to intelligence, they were busy with impeachment while Trump shut down travel. Months after that, Democrats were still telling people to go out and eat at your local Chinatown restaurant. Then they blame Trump for not shutting things down fast enough which would've limited deaths.

We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.

This virus has been on earth for over a year and a half and we still don't know if GOF was involved. Sad the people in charge don't know anything about how this virus came to be. They should be fired. Some say they should be jailed.

[GQBlues]

http://thehill.com/policy/international/557998-chinese-researchers-say-new-batch-of-coronaviruses-found-in-bats

GQ,

As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted.  We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.

Put aside the fact one of the emails to Fauci from one of his cohorts that this 'virus' have enough stamp on it that leaves no doubt it's engineered.

Would we ever know if this was in fact a Wuhan lab leaked? I wouldn't bet on it. Not because I don't believe it is but because all the 'investigation', especially with this current administration, as I stated upthread, carries no merit nor carry with it the need or urgency to confirm the genesis of this pandemic. They are leaving it up to WHO to send their delegates there to 'find out'.

If one puts aside the blame game for the 'source' of this strain for just a moment, and reflects about what would have happened if a research such as this had not been performed prior, along with precursor vaccines developing from this very same research, the death and toll from economic damage could have been far worse.

I can't believe you actually said that.


If no one created Frankenstein, why the need to find a defense against him?

[BC]

Would we ever know if this was in fact a Wuhan lab leaked? I wouldn't bet on it. Not because I don't believe it is but because all the 'investigation', especially with this current administration, as I stated upthread, carries no merit nor carry with it the need or urgency to confirm the genesis of this pandemic. They are leaving it up to WHO to send their delegates there to 'find out'.

It's their country.  Better to try work with them, leaving justified blame when the facts are known than to build a wall with blame.  At least Biden has promised to release all information known with Congress unanimously holding him to it. He took possession of the football and running with it instead of an intentional grounding.

I can't believe you actually said that.

If no one created Frankenstein, why the need to find a defense against him?

You don't remember SARS-CoV in 2002, and MERS-CoV in 2012 both more deadly than SARS-CoV-2(we call COVID-19)?  Fortunately, they were not as infectious and did not spread so fast or we would have been in really deep shit 20 years ago without any hope for a vaccine around the corner.  They are all from the same growing COVID family.

[BC]

We just gave money to a lab in China capable of making biological weapons and their was no oversight. China can't be trusted to do things without oversight. Maybe Fauci can explain how he made sure China wasn't abusing our money to develop a military weapon for themselves? He can't explain what happened because there was no oversight. We didn't have our scientists over there watching them create a new Frankenstein virus. China wouldn't even let us over there to evaluate the behavior of the virus spreading among its people. WHO simply repeated the lie the virus wasn't human to human transferable, nothing to fear. Although Democrats are on the intelligence committee and has access to intelligence, they were busy with impeachment while Trump shut down travel. Months after that, Democrats were still telling people to go out and eat at your local Chinatown restaurant. Then they blame Trump for not shutting things down fast enough which would've limited deaths.

You forgot to throw in the kitchen sink.  My first thought reading this was of a sniper with a shotgun and birdshot at 500 yards.

[GQBlues]

It's their country.  Better to try work with them, leaving justified blame when the facts are known than to build a wall with blame.  At least Biden has promised to release all information known with Congress unanimously holding him to it. He took possession of the football and running with it instead of an intentional grounding.

Cute. Which actually means pretty much nothing. What information will Biden release exactly after WHO gets back to him? That there's no proof of it came from the lab, and that it was from the wet market from some 40+ miles away? That should be good enough, yes? That's pretty much what I summed up above.

You don't remember SARS-CoV in 2002, and MERS-CoV in 2012 both more deadly than SARS-CoV-2(we call COVID-19)?  Fortunately, they were not as infectious and did not spread so fast or we would have been in really deep shit 20 years ago without any hope for a vaccine around the corner.  They are all from the same growing COVID family.

False projection, BC. Those two viruses were not as virulent as COVID-19 for the simple reason they were not engineered to be one. That's the main point of gain of function. COVID-19 literally discarded, or skipped, the zoonotic process of transfer.


Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?

[Grumpy]

In a series of definitive pieces that earned him the 2021 Pulitzer Prize for explanatory reporting, The Atlantic’s Ed Yong anticipated the course of the coronavirus pandemic, clarified its dangers, and illuminated the American government’s disastrous failure to curb it. 

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/ed-yongs-pulitzer-prize-winning-pandemic-coverage/619182/

The link includes links to the award winning stories.

[BC]

Cute. Which actually means pretty much nothing. What information will Biden release exactly after WHO gets back to him? That there's no proof of it came from the lab, and that it was from the wet market from some 40+ miles away? That should be good enough, yes? That's pretty much what I summed up above.

Statement by President Joe Biden on the Investigation into the Origins of COVID-19
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/05/26/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-the-investigation-into-the-origins-of-covid-19/

S.1867 - COVID–19 Origin Act of 2021
http://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/1867/actions

False projection, BC. Those two viruses were not as virulent as COVID-19 for the simple reason they were not engineered to be one. That's the main point of gain of function. COVID-19 literally discarded, or skipped, the zoonotic process of transfer.

As your opinion fine. As fact, sources of the first two were tracked down, and COVID 19 we have a couple of possibilities, but simply don't know yet. Maybe in 90 days or so we'll know more and have more complete information to evaluate.  Viruses do evolve naturally, gaining and losing function. Research tries to predict mutations and the possibility of gaining more dangerous qualities, such as ease of transmission.

We'll just have to be patient and see how the facts unfold.

Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?

Someone, somewhere may well have.

http://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(19)72741-0/pdf

[tfcrew]

As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted.  We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.

 

Gain of function research (GoF research or GoFR) is medical research that alters an organism or disease in a way that increases pathogenesis, transmissibility, or host range (the types of hosts that a microorganism can infect). This research is intended to reveal targets to better predict emerging infectious diseases and to develop vaccines and therapeutics.

What did cause the outbreak...the boogieman?

How do you now Dr. Li is a top virologist?  Do you have any credentials, beyond what Dr. Li tells us, to substantiate that?  No, I didn't think so.

Was that one ever walked back?

Let's all learn how to be skeptical from now on.

[BC]

  What did cause the outbreak...the boogieman?

Could be a possibility depending on your definition.  Fact is we simply do not know yet.
 

Let's all learn how to be skeptical from now on.

If science were not skeptical, Earth might still be flat, with the Sun revolving around it.

The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation.

-wikipedia

[GQBlues]

This is what I mean with you at times. When you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with...

Statement by President Joe Biden on the Investigation into the Origins of COVID-19
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/05/26/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-the-investigation-into-the-origins-of-covid-19/

S.1867 - COVID–19 Origin Act of 2021
http://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/1867/actions

Did you even read any of these two links? There's absolutely NOTHING in these two that delivered anything we didn't already knew or have since this whole thing began. Trump, as early as January last year, upon banning travel to China was confronted by opposition, notably the WHO, saying China had always been transparent with the current epidemic and they are taking care of it, assuring the world it will be contained. All events in between, what has changed?


Back in April when Trump announced there's enough intelligence gathered that gave him no doubt this was more than a potentiality that it came from a lab, Democrats demonized him - and this came from the DNI shortly after.


http://Intelligence Community Statement on Origins of COVID-19 (dni.gov)

No Sireee Donnie We wouldn't want to blame anyone else on this pandemic other than the target of affection, now do we? Besides, in less than a year there's going to be a campaign about fighting 'Asian hate'. in the land.


What changed since then? Yeah...the *2020 election*.

As your opinion fine. As fact, sources of the first two were tracked down, and COVID 19 we have a couple of possibilities, but simply don't know yet. Maybe in 90 days or so we'll know more and have more complete information to evaluate.  Viruses do evolve naturally, gaining and losing function. Research tries to predict mutations and the possibility of gaining more dangerous qualities, such as ease of transmission.

Your attempt to elevate yourself fails miserably. Science, for all its merit, is nothing more than an *opinion* unless proven wrong. Remember the dinosaur tales?

We'll just have to be patient and see how the facts unfold.

Do we really have a choice? China had already publicly pushed back against Biden, like it did against Trump.

Someone, somewhere may well have.

http://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(19)72741-0/pdf

There you go again. Exactly 22 years ago to the month....it's still 'someone, somewhere' to the day. Which as above...means *nothing*.

[BillyB]

J and J vaccine not doing good. Effectiveness isn't as advertised and manufacturing flaws are making countries give it away. 60 mil doses to be thrown away.


http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-foregoes-100-million-jj-vaccines-considers-donating-other-doses-sources-2021-06-10/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9677093/FDA-ordered-Johnson-Johnson-throw-60-million-COVID-19-vaccine-doses.html?ITO=applenews


Your government think you're stupid. Are you? I've attached a few photos. See if you can figure it out.

[BC]

This is what I mean with you at times. When you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with...

Bullshit.  It's ok, you can say it, but before aiming to throw it at me lets review:

After I briefly mentioned the ongoing  of Biden and Congress, that will hopefully bring more clarity:

It's their country.  Better to try work with them, leaving justified blame when the facts are known than to build a wall with blame.  At least Biden has promised to release all information known with Congress unanimously holding him to it. He took possession of the football and running with it instead of an intentional grounding.

You replied [emphasis added]

Cute. Which actually means pretty much nothing. What information will Biden release exactly after WHO gets back to him? That there's no proof of it came from the lab, and that it was from the wet market from some 40+ miles away? That should be good enough, yes? That's pretty much what I summed up above.

And I responded with the links to the WH press release, dated 26 May 2021 and the Senate Bill S.1867 of the same date.

You now reply:

Did you even read any of these two links? There's absolutely NOTHING in these two that delivered anything we didn't already knew or have since this whole thing began. Trump, as early as January last year, upon banning travel to China was confronted by opposition, notably the WHO, saying China had always been transparent with the current epidemic and they are taking care of it, assuring the world it will be contained. All events in between, what has changed?

Of course I read them, and there is nothing we don't already know.  That wasn't even the point of our little discussion in the first place.  But it seems you missed the point by a mile.  May I kindly ask if you read them in the context of our discussion?

Maybe lets try to get it straight:

1. Biden gave intelligence services 90 days from 26 May 2021 to dig up more information that can help establish the origin of the virus.

I have now asked the Intelligence Community to redouble their efforts to collect and analyze information that could bring us closer to a definitive conclusion, and to report back to me in 90 days.

2. The Senate in S.1867 in turn voted unanimously to require DNI (Head of the Intelligence Community) to:

Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Director of National Intelligence shall—

(1) declassify any and all information relating to potential links between the Wuhan Institute of Virology and the origin of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19), including— [list of specific items]

So 90 days from 26 May 2021, around 24 August 2021, Biden will get a report from DNI, and that report will be declassified except for sources and methods.  Only at that time will it be possible that we may know more.  Neither you, nor I, or the president will know anything more until then.

Back in April when Trump announced there's enough intelligence gathered that gave him no doubt this was more than a potentiality that it came from a lab, Democrats demonized him - and this came from the DNI shortly after.

http://Intelligence Community Statement on Origins of COVID-19 (dni.gov)

No Sireee Donnie We wouldn't want to blame anyone else on this pandemic other than the target of affection, now do we? Besides, in less than a year there's going to be a campaign about fighting 'Asian hate'. in the land.


What changed since then? Yeah...the *2020 election*.

And Biden, not being satisfied with the report he was given in January, he ordered the intelligence services to redouble their effort and Senate ordering that any information be declassified. 

Your attempt to elevate yourself fails miserably. Science, for all its merit, is nothing more than an *opinion* unless proven wrong. Remember the dinosaur tales?

It seems you do not understand the scientific method.  In the context we are discussing think Opinion = Observation

The video is short and quite good.

Do we really have a choice? China had already publicly pushed back against Biden, like it did against Trump.

No, we have to wait and see if something new is revealed towards the end of August.

There you go again. Exactly 22 years ago to the month....it's still 'someone, somewhere' to the day. Which as above...means *nothing*.

You were the one that asked:

Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?

I simply gave you a link to research of HIV where it seems GOF was being used.  Why complain about that? Did you not find it helpful?

GQ,

you're a bright guy.  You enjoy the discourse as much as I do along with being able to take a poke here and there.  You want answers to the same questions I do, including if the bug was related to work at the lab.

I'm not like someone else who used to hang around jumping through every hoop imaginable just to try and be right, even if wrong.  I usually don't argue for the sake of argument.  If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit such.  But can I make a simple request ?  If you want to shoot a few hoops, let's stick with a basketball instead of making me try dribbling a football.  I'm all for constructive discourse if that is what you really want.  If not, just let me know and I'll keep my replies simple instead of engaging in efforts to learn something and draw lines we both can agree on.

Go ahead and throw the BS if you still want to 

[/list]

[GQBlues]

OY!

Bullshit.  It's ok, you can say it, but before aiming to throw it at me lets review:

After I briefly mentioned the ongoing  of Biden and Congress, that will hopefully bring more clarity:

You replied [emphasis added]

And I responded with the links to the WH press release, dated 26 May 2021 and the Senate Bill S.1867 of the same date.

You now reply:

Of course I read them, and there is nothing we don't already know.  That wasn't even the point of our little discussion in the first place.  But it seems you missed the point by a mile.  May I kindly ask if you read them in the context of our discussion?

Maybe lets try to get it straight:

1. Biden gave intelligence services 90 days from 26 May 2021 to dig up more information that can help establish the origin of the virus.

2. The Senate in S.1867 in turn voted unanimously to require DNI (Head of the Intelligence Community) to:

So 90 days from 26 May 2021, around 24 August 2021, Biden will get a report from DNI, and that report will be declassified except for sources and methods.  Only at that time will it be possible that we may know more.  Neither you, nor I, or the president will know anything more until then.

And Biden, not being satisfied with the report he was given in January, he ordered the intelligence services to redouble their effort and Senate ordering that any information be declassified. 

Not exactly. Biden was pressured to the mounting evidence provided to him by the Trump administration late December 2020. Evidences that were dismissed and scorned by the Democratic congress.

How Biden came round to the Wuhan lab-leak theory | Financial Times (ft.com)


1. You inferred we somehow appreciate that gain of function allowed us to come up with a vaccine sooner than we normally could have to fight the virus.
2. I replied I couldn’t believe you said that, adding, we don’t create Franky, we don’t need to find the means to defend ourselves from him.
3. Then you reason by projecting MERS/SARS into the discussion that we should be thankful they were not as virulent as COVID-19.
4.  I stated as posted by citing COVID-19 was engineered to be *more* virulent, to which you stated it’s *my* opinion and then throw me YOUR *opinion* as fact saying we don’t yet know that.

Fair enough. For now my *opinion* was based on the email provided to us by FOIA written to Fauci by one of his colleague who investigated and studied COVID-19, and came up to the conclusion – COVID-19 have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus.
Many times on these discussions, facts and opinions are expressed. Some are reality-based, some mythical, while some are conjured up by sheer ignorance. IF the basis of MY opinion (in this specific exchange) that a study was conducted (science) as evidenced by a once-classified exchange between scientists, where it found (scientific method) evidence, conclusive enough to raise concerns and notification, that this virus have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus. Would this still be an *opinion* to you?

So your link/s, added nothing to what we already had in our hands. There already were evidences on hand. Biden's initial investigation order was to hand-off the duty to WHO, whom we already know is irresponsible and easily coerced by China. So, delegating an investigation to the usual suspect is an exercise in futility. That's akin to delegating migrant problems we have to his VP - Kamala Harris, man.

He hands off a new executive command to 'double' the effort for this investigation and report back to him in 90-days. Declassify information and evidence he already have on-hand? Takes 90-days to do that? You know, I know, I'm sure he knows - China isn't going to welcome his investigators with open arms while ushering them into the Wuhan lab and giving them all the necessary documents to insure this investigation is successful.

So, again, what is it we have or know today - that we didn't already have? My guess - ZIP, NADA! Would this investigation prove the lab leak ('theory' at this time) conclusively confirmed simply by the evidence our intelligence have on hand - or does China need to submit their confessions before it becomes 'conclusive'?

So, like the response I gave BillyB above that sprung this exchange with you and me. Fauci not only needs to get fired, he needs to spend a very long time in jail for everything he had done around this pandemic. For helping create, then politicize a deadly virus that plague not only the US, but nations beyond.

It seems you do not understand the scientific method.

Funny.

In the context we are discussing think Opinion = Observation

The video is short and quite good.

There you go, exactly what I said on my opening line in my previous post.

Now, let me continue. Your video, while entertaining, has little to NO relevance to anything above. YOU need to understand the difference between *SCIENCE* from ‘scientific method’. This way you don’t do what you just did, again. Science is a systematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’. Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION. A theory is developed, then processing is applied. Scientific method is the ‘process’ to reach a ‘conclusion’.
No need to believe, I trust you know how to use Google. It's evident a lot of folks here rely on that way too much anyway.

No, we have to wait and see if something new is revealed towards the end of August.

Well, yeah no sh!t Captain Obvious! They had the intelligence apparently since April 2020, so I'm certain there's not much we can do at this point but, well, wait, and likely wait some more.

You were the one that asked:

I simply gave you a link to research of HIV where it seems GOF was being used.  Why complain about that? Did you not find it helpful?

A failed experiment done on something? Not really. Because it proved what I stated in my post that prompted your silly link...if GOF have an ounce of merit, THERE SHOULD've been a cure for HIV / Herpes.

Then you gave me a 22 year old failed experiment.

GQ,

you're a bright guy.  You enjoy the discourse as much as I do along with being able to take a poke here and there.  You want answers to the same questions I do, including if the bug was related to work at the lab.

I'm not like someone else who used to hang around jumping through every hoop imaginable just to try and be right, even if wrong.  I usually don't argue for the sake of argument.  If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit such.  But can I make a simple request ?  If you want to shoot a few hoops, let's stick with a basketball instead of making me try dribbling a football.  I'm all for constructive discourse if that is what you really want.  If not, just let me know and I'll keep my replies simple instead of engaging in efforts to learn something and draw lines we both can agree on.

Go ahead and throw the BS if you still want to   

No comment.

[BC]

OY!

Not exactly. Biden was pressured to the mounting evidence provided to him by the Trump administration late December 2020. Evidences that were dismissed and scorned by the Democratic congress.

How Biden came round to the Wuhan lab-leak theory | Financial Times (ft.com)

Sure, many like you and me would like to know where the virus came from. That there is political pressure to do so is obvious, but at least now there is a president who wants to look at all the possibilities and not just one.

I don't disagree with the conclusions of the article:

   

One person familiar with the situation said the National Intelligence Council, which collates information from the entire intelligence community, produced two reports last year assessing US intelligence on the origins of Covid-19. The director for national intelligence declined to comment.

Those efforts, coupled with a third “scrub” of the intelligence this year, led to Biden saying last week that two of the 18 branches of the intelligence community leaned towards the natural origin scenario, while a third was more inclined towards the lab-leak theory.

Biden said the three had only “low or moderate confidence” in their conclusions while the other branches did not have enough evidence. That has sparked concern that 90 days is not sufficient for intelligence officials to reach any solid determination.

“The community as a whole is far away from reaching anything that we could call even a halfway firm conclusion,” said Paul Pillar, a former senior CIA official. “The fact that many of the agencies involved have not reached a consensus even for a ‘low confidence’ judgment tells you they’re a long way away from anything conclusive.”

1. You inferred we somehow appreciate that gain of function allowed us to come up with a vaccine sooner than we normally could have to fight the virus.
2. I replied I couldn’t believe you said that, adding, we don’t create Franky, we don’t need to find the means to defend ourselves from him.
3. Then you reason by projecting MERS/SARS into the discussion that we should be thankful they were not as virulent as COVID-19.
4.  I stated as posted by citing COVID-19 was engineered to be *more* virulent, to which you stated it’s *my* opinion and then throw me YOUR *opinion* as fact saying we don’t yet know that.

Not knowing something is not an opinion.  It's like you asking which is better for staying healthy, apples or oranges. - I just don't know.

Fair enough. For now my *opinion* was based on the email provided to us by FOIA written to Fauci by one of his colleague who investigated and studied COVID-19, and came up to the conclusion – COVID-19 have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus.

Do show me the email you refer to so we can be on the same page.

Many times on these discussions, facts and opinions are expressed. Some are reality-based, some mythical, while some are conjured up by sheer ignorance. IF the basis of MY opinion (in this specific exchange) that a study was conducted (science) as evidenced by a once-classified exchange between scientists, where it found (scientific method) evidence, conclusive enough to raise concerns and notification, that this virus have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus. Would this still be an *opinion* to you?

Yes, it would be an opinion. 'Conclusive enough to raise concerns and notification' - sounds like a hypothesis.  Don't hesitate to point me to the page you are looking at though.

So your link/s, added nothing to what we already had in our hands. There already were evidences on hand. Biden's initial investigation order was to hand-off the duty to WHO, whom we already know is irresponsible and easily coerced by China. So, delegating an investigation to the usual suspect is an exercise in futility. That's akin to delegating migrant problems we have to his VP - Kamala Harris, man.

Of course, Biden's statement and the Senate bill don't provide information, they request it.  You seem to say that we already know it all, when we don't.  He has reports from several agencies that neither agree with each other, nor have the level of confidence needed to take any actions.

He hands off a new executive command to 'double' the effort for this investigation and report back to him in 90-days. Declassify information and evidence he already have on-hand? Takes 90-days to do that? You know, I know, I'm sure he knows - China isn't going to welcome his investigators with open arms while ushering them into the Wuhan lab and giving them all the necessary documents to insure this investigation is successful.

Again, we don't know what the intelligence services might be able to find, or not.  Is any new information available?  I don't know, nor do you.  The reports were done by separate agencies. Asking them to all get together and come out with one assessment isn't a bad idea.

So, again, what is it we have or know today - that we didn't already have? My guess - ZIP, NADA! Would this investigation prove the lab leak ('theory' at this time) conclusively confirmed simply by the evidence our intelligence have on hand - or does China need to submit their confessions before it becomes 'conclusive'?

Again, we'll have to wait to see if anything comes about, simple as that.
 

So, like the response I gave BillyB above that sprung this exchange with you and me. Fauci not only needs to get fired, he needs to spend a very long time in jail for everything he had done around this pandemic. For helping create, then politicize a deadly virus that plague not only the US, but nations beyond.

Based on what?

Funny.

Ok.

There you go, exactly what I said on my opening line in my previous post.

Now that's funny.

Now, let me continue. Your video, while entertaining, has little to NO relevance to anything above. YOU need to understand the difference between *SCIENCE* from ‘scientific method’. This way you don’t do what you just did, again. Science is a systematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’. Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION. A theory is developed, then processing is applied. Scientific method is the ‘process’ to reach a ‘conclusion’.
No need to believe, I trust you know how to use Google. It's evident a lot of folks here rely on that way too much anyway.

So you want me to believe that Science does not require the Scientific Method?  Ain't happening.  You even contradict yourself with what you googled.

Well, yeah no sh!t Captain Obvious! They had the intelligence apparently since April 2020, so I'm certain there's not much we can do at this point but, well, wait, and likely wait some more.

Ok.. so now there is nothing.  So there's something, nothing, something and now nothing in one post.

A failed experiment done on something? Not really. Because it proved what I stated in my post that prompted your silly link...if GOF have an ounce of merit, THERE SHOULD've been a cure for HIV / Herpes.
Then you gave me a 22 year old failed experiment.

One learns even from a failed experiment. That's also part of the scientific method.  HIV/Herpes, sure, would be nice to kick them in the butt as well as the common cold.  We'll get there one day.  Research continues.

No comment.

Well thanks for trying to play with the same ball, even if it is a bit lopsided.  Like with others in the past, it's often best to simplify arguments, and discuss one part at a time.  Still a bit jumpy with your last post, but hey any progress is progress.

[GQBlues]

Amazingly...he lost all faculties and knowledge in how to Google despite that's really all he'd been doing...

 

So you want me to believe that Science does not require the Scientific Method?

Read again and cite where I said that.

Ain't happening.  You even contradict yourself with what you googled.

Yeppers statement still stands. *Scientific Method* was not the subject of conversation nor was a point of contention, science was. Science is NOT an absolution. It stands to scrutiny. LMAO, in certain regions, science is, or can be, politically manipulated i.e causes of global warming. It's prevalence stands on the balance until it is proven wrong. Thus I brought up the matters surrounding the science of the dinosaurs - until it came to light that 'science' was erroneous and debunked.

Not my fault you (still obviously do not) couldn't make the distinction between what science is from what scientific method is. Whether you like it or not, there IS a very clear difference between the two. It'll serve you much better to be careful next time.

One learns even from a failed experiment. That's also part of the scientific method.  HIV/Herpes, sure, would be nice to kick them in the butt as well as the common cold.  We'll get there one day.  Research continues.

One more time, hopefully last...I remarked not an ounce of merit came out of GOF and cited the example of the fact no progress had been made in curing cases of HIV / Herpes. You came up with a link that (maybe you hoped I wouldn't read, or maybe you never read after Goggling for it) was done back in 1999 which concluded to what I inferred. There's still no cure for HIV or Herpes or any other viral diseases we know today despite the experiment.

[GQBlues]

Sure, many like you and me would like to know where the virus came from. That there is political pressure to do so is obvious, but at least now there is a president who wants to look at all the possibilities and not just one.

Yes, but too bad he was demonized, scorned, collectively dismissed to be able to fully carry out what was already corroborated by enough evidence, while circumstantially or otherwise at the time.


So when I told you when Biden ordered an investigation back in January which resulted in ZIP, NANA, zilch due in large part he dimwittedly delegate the task to WHO, it - predictably - resulted into well, zip, nada, zilch.


No need to Google, let me *bring the US* to you since I understand you can't possibly 'know'.

Now you say with your links that he'll 'double the effort' to investigate this even *deeper*, deeper exactly as to 'how'? Send the SEAL team to infiltrate the lab in the dark of night unbeknownst to the CCP? Gather all the evidences of *documents* destroyed over a year ago? Maybe Have Dr. Daszyk (sp) testify in Congress what he knows so we can all rest peacefully at nights going forward?


I believe the second deadly sin with this pandemic was it was politicized heavily in this country at the expense of millions of fatalities. Picture the likes of why Pelosi did in Chinatown when Trump spoke of holding China responsible for this pandemic.

[fathertime]

I believe the second deadly sin with this pandemic was it was politicized heavily in this country at the expense of millions of fatalities. Picture the likes of why Pelosi did in Chinatown when Trump spoke of holding China responsible for this pandemic.

In my opinion, trump was trying to demonize china in order to try to force them to give more concessions in other areas of business.    I wouldn't blame China, Trump, or Biden for the pandemic.  Until proven otherwise, I remain of the belief that it occurred naturally.   If somewhere down the line it is proven that the US/China created this virus, then the people of the world can righteously grumble fiercely at the lack of responsibility, and call for some sort of consequence.   Meanwhile, I continue to take my chances without the vaccine or obsessive social distancing, and I'm not dead yet.

Fathertime! 

[BC]

Amazingly...he lost all faculties and knowledge in how to Google despite that's really all he'd been doing...

 
Read again and cite where I said that.

Yeppers statement still stands. *Scientific Method* was not the subject of conversation nor was a point of contention, science was. Science is NOT an absolution. It stands to scrutiny. LMAO, in certain regions, science is, or can be, politically manipulated i.e causes of global warming. It's prevalence stands on the balance until it is proven wrong. Thus I brought up the matters surrounding the science of the dinosaurs - until it came to light that 'science' was erroneous and debunked.

Not my fault you (still obviously do not) couldn't make the distinction between what science is from what scientific method is. Whether you like it or not, there IS a very clear difference between the two. It'll serve you much better to be careful next time.

One more time, hopefully last...I remarked not an ounce of merit came out of GOF and cited the example of the fact no progress had been made in curing cases of HIV / Herpes. You came up with a link that (maybe you hoped I wouldn't read, or maybe you never read after Goggling for it) was done back in 1999 which concluded to what I inferred. There's still no cure for HIV or Herpes or any other viral diseases we know today despite the experiment.

GQ,

Thanks for breaking this out into two parts.

1. Discussion on Science and the Scientific Method.
2. Discussion on Gain of Function, whether beneficial or not.

Let's look at the first.

Your Statement:

Now, let me continue. Your video, while entertaining, has little to NO relevance to anything above. YOU need to understand the difference between *SCIENCE* from ‘scientific method’. This way you don’t do what you just did, again. Science is a systematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’. Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION. A theory is developed, then processing is applied. Scientific method is the ‘process’ to reach a ‘conclusion’.
No need to believe, I trust you know how to use Google. It's evident a lot of folks here rely on that way too much anyway.

My Reply:

So you want me to believe that Science does not require the Scientific Method?  Ain't happening.  You even contradict yourself with what you googled.

What was, or was not 'googled' aside, lets simplify your argument that somehow seems intended to separate Science from the Scientific Method.

Science is asystematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’.

and

Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION.

I assert the Scientific Method is the 'systematic study' part, integral to Science.  'Science' as you seem to define it leaves leaves out the refining loops in the image below I marked red.



Even before the Scientific Method was defined and structured as above, it was used, albeit loosely, since the beginning of time.

Let's take the age old quest to turn lead into gold, where many ingredients were mixed with molten lead, with disappointing results.  Folks never gave up and eventually did find a method to turn lead into gold, proving that it is possible using a particle accelerator in a process called transmutation.

We're using it here in our discussion as well, but it seems you desire to come to a conclusion that China somehow fiddled around with the virus and released it either by accident or with intent, based on incomplete information, or that somehow the information is being withheld from us or has already been somehow 'proven' by an email Fauci exchanged. (please do point me to that email as I am curious).  The whole point of science is to find out 'how things work', we don't disagree there.

I don't think we are that awful far apart GQ.  I am simply saying let the process go forward, and with a bit of time and effort, maybe we'll be able to find out where this virus originated. We know it did originate somewhere (except for the few who that say it was just a scam in the first place), so finding the answer is certainly possible, hopefully taking less time than transforming lead to gold.

Can we agree on this now? If not, please do show me where I am wrong. If I am somehow missing the point let me know as well. I am capable of learning.  I do admit not quite understanding what you meant with the dinosaurs, but that's another topic in itself.  Maybe comet vs volcano, vs some virus or such?

As for GOF, we have the following:
IIRC started with your statement:

False projection, BC. Those two viruses were not as virulent as COVID-19 for the simple reason they were not engineered to be one. That's the main point of gain of function. COVID-19 literally discarded, or skipped, the zoonotic process of transfer.

Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?

and I answered:

As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted.  We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.

Then:

1. You inferred we somehow appreciate that gain of function allowed us to come up with a vaccine sooner than we normally could have to fight the virus.
2. I replied I couldn’t believe you said that, adding, we don’t create Franky, we don’t need to find the means to defend ourselves from him.
3. Then you reason by projecting MERS/SARS into the discussion that we should be thankful they were not as virulent as COVID-19.
4.  I stated as posted by citing COVID-19 was engineered to be *more* virulent, to which you stated it’s *my* opinion and then throw me YOUR *opinion* as fact saying we don’t yet know that.

I do recall stating that prior research on SARS and MERS provided the insight with quickly developing vaccines for COVID, but don't believe I addressed GOF or not.  My prior statement below:

You don't remember SARS-CoV in 2002, and MERS-CoV in 2012 both more deadly than SARS-CoV-2(we call COVID-19)?  Fortunately, they were not as infectious and did not spread so fast or we would have been in really deep shit 20 years ago without any hope for a vaccine around the corner.  They are all from the same growing COVID family.

If I stated otherwise before, and in context with our current discourse please do remind me where.

To wrap things up a bit, I'm neither trying to baffle you with bullshit nor attempting to dazzle you with brilliance. I am truly enjoying discourse with you.  You are outside my 'comfort zone' with opposing views.  Much better than simply 'echoing' and backslapping as some others seem to enjoy.  In the last couple of posts we seem to be getting 'somewhere', maybe not with agreement, but at least beginning to understand better 'where we're coming from'.  That in itself is a lot around here 
 

[BC]

Yes, but too bad he was demonized, scorned, collectively dismissed to be able to fully carry out what was already corroborated by enough evidence, while circumstantially or otherwise at the time.

I think his error was to engage in destructive discourse, that goes nowhere.  His 'knee-jerk' reaction to anything he perceives as being negative is to blame someone else for it.  This of course lead to an environment you perceive as being 'demonized'.  As to corroboration and evidence, well that is still obviously ongoing. 

So when I told you when Biden ordered an investigation back in January which resulted in ZIP, NANA, zilch due in large part he dimwittedly delegate the task to WHO, it - predictably - resulted into well, zip, nada, zilch.

Again, we'll just have to see.

No need to Google, let me *bring the US* to you since I understand you can't possibly 'know'.

Now you say with your links that he'll 'double the effort' to investigate this even *deeper*, deeper exactly as to 'how'? Send the SEAL team to infiltrate the lab in the dark of night unbeknownst to the CCP? Gather all the evidences of *documents* destroyed over a year ago? Maybe Have Dr. Daszyk (sp) testify in Congress what he knows so we can all rest peacefully at nights going forward?

As I stated before, we don't know what is going on in the background, folks are working every day on this.  I do know that trying to work with someone is much better than working against someone.  Last year we did not really attempt to create an atmosphere of cooperation with the ongoing and incessant (even to this day) blame game.  Right now he has reports from several agencies that disagree, and Biden at least wants them to try to dig together this time around to reach some consensus, and if consensus either way is even possible.  In addition, the world wants to know what the source is, not only the US, so it is a matter of trying to work with China and not against China that has any hope of providing answers.  Would we allow hundreds of Chinese investigators and scientists into the US if some novel outbreak happens in the future?  I dunno....

I believe the second deadly sin with this pandemic was it was politicized heavily in this country at the expense of millions of fatalities. Picture the likes of why Pelosi did in Chinatown when Trump spoke of holding China responsible for this pandemic.

I fully agree with the bold part.  As for the rest, debatable but really, not worthy of the time as it has no bearing on what we really want to know.

[GQBlues]

GQ,

Thanks for breaking this out into two parts.

1. Discussion on Science and the Scientific Method.
2. Discussion on Gain of Function, whether beneficial or not.

You better be thankful. I took some time off from wifey's riding lesson (believe it or not) so I can finish that post...

Let's look at the first.

Your Statement:

My Reply:

What was, or was not 'googled' aside, lets simplify your argument that somehow seems intended to separate Science from the Scientific Method.

and

I assert the Scientific Method is the 'systematic study' part, integral to Science.  'Science' as you seem to define it leaves leaves out the refining loops in the image below I marked red.



Even before the Scientific Method was defined and structured as above, it was used, albeit loosely, since the beginning of time.

Let's take the age old quest to turn lead into gold, where many ingredients were mixed with molten lead, with disappointing results.  Folks never gave up and eventually did find a method to turn lead into gold, proving that it is possible using a particle accelerator in a process called transmutation.

We're using it here in our discussion as well, but it seems you desire to come to a conclusion that China somehow fiddled around with the virus and released it either by accident or with intent, based on incomplete information, or that somehow the information is being withheld from us or has already been somehow 'proven' by an email Fauci exchanged. (please do point me to that email as I am curious).  The whole point of science is to find out 'how things work', we don't disagree there.

I still see the struggle here. Methinks it's bordering on the point of diminishing return to what was an otherwise very simple distinction. Too many graphs, pics, presentation, etc...you remind me of Lily from AT&T commercials - *It's not Complicated*

Let me bring this back to the very basic distinction. Where science is the pool, the library, the body, of knowledge and discoveries; scientific method(ology) is the pursuit( the process) of knowledge. It is that simple, BC.

I don't think we are that awful far apart GQ.  I am simply saying let the process go forward, and with a bit of time and effort, maybe we'll be able to find out where this virus originated. We know it did originate somewhere (except for the few who that say it was just a scam in the first place), so finding the answer is certainly possible, hopefully taking less time than transforming lead to gold.

I agree in the mutual interest to learn of the genesis of the infection. But all I have been saying to you is because the Chinese government already destroyed documents, samples, even witnesses and all other evidence that would give life to the *theory* of a lab leak; controlled the investigation itself by prohibiting international scientists to conduct their own investigative work IN China; there isn't anything this latest EO is going to accomplish more than what we already have (intelligence) on hand. We can wait another 90 days, 1 year or a decade, but this isn't progressing short of China admitting total complicity of this pandemic.


We have the intelligence reports last year. What do you think is going to change EVEN IF new revelations came out of this 'investigation'? Can you even imagine *Trump was right all along!* *China admits, after compelling evidences, that they concealed to the world that this was a botched experiments gone bad!* *Trump good, China Bad!*


If China can never allow that to happen, then this administration will make sure that doesn't happen either.


Sure, we'll wait...unlike you however, I have zero faith. Especially not with this administration BC. Heck, he can't even mange to figure what to do with the border and illegal immigration problem.

Can we agree on this now? If not, please do show me where I am wrong. If I am somehow missing the point let me know as well. I am capable of learning.  I do admit not quite understanding what you meant with the dinosaurs, but that's another topic in itself.  Maybe comet vs volcano, vs some virus or such?

The science behind dinosaurs had always vacillated. That was the point of my using it as a example. Science isn't always 'absolute'. It will always remain under scrutiny. At least IMO. Dinosaurs was once believed to be ecthotherm (cold-blooded) until they discovered fossils of feathered dinosaurs in China (of all places, eh?) mid-1900s. The science behind it depends on how you distinguish it from two distinct *grouping*, Linnaean or phylogenetic.


Science once noted dinosaurs had gone extinct. Not true. Further studies have revealed an 'evolutionary' sequence of species of *modern birds* derived from dinosaurs that survived that flash point.


Which now brings us to GOF:

As for GOF, we have the following:
IIRC started with your statement:

and I answered:

Then:

I do recall stating that prior research on SARS and MERS provided the insight with quickly developing vaccines for COVID, but don't believe I addressed GOF or not.  My prior statement below:

If I stated otherwise before, and in context with our current discourse please do remind me where.

To wrap things up a bit, I'm neither trying to baffle you with bullshit nor attempting to dazzle you with brilliance. I am truly enjoying discourse with you.  You are outside my 'comfort zone' with opposing views.  Much better than simply 'echoing' and backslapping as some others seem to enjoy.  In the last couple of posts we seem to be getting 'somewhere', maybe not with agreement, but at least beginning to understand better 'where we're coming from'.  That in itself is a lot around here 

From what I understand, simplified, the *scientific method* of gain of function is accelerating the evolutionary process of a virus to become deadlier and more transmissible from animals to human to what would otherwise take years, decades, maybe even centuries for a virus to mutate at this level *naturally*. This *fact* alone, while further studies needs to be conducted for confirmation, gives creedence to the theory that COVID-19 is 'man-made.