Experiences with American women -- a question from jen

[jen]

Hi everyone,

OK, here goes. I am very aware of the fact that you guys have been discussing just about everything there is to discuss about international dating for quite a while now -- which is why I am reading the boards and will continue to make my way through them. However, I also want you to have the chance to respond specifically to me: to let me know what you think I need to hear as a researcher. So, let me start with a specific question and we'll see where that goes.

There was a discussion in one of Ada's threads about why you are attracted to Russian/FSU women, specifically. I would like to look at the flip side of this question and ask:

--was a dissatisfaction with American women (or women in your home country, if you are not based in US) the key thing that motivated you to begin searching abroad?

--if so, how would you describe that dissatisfaction?  (From conversations with individuals as well as reading boards like this one, I have seen a number of common responses:  unattractiveness, lack of family orientation, self-centeredness, etc.) What is the central problem as you see it?

--why do you think these problems exist?  Do you think that feminism is responsible for these problems, as I have often seen discussed, or something else?  If so, what do you think "feminism" means or includes?

I'm looking forward to hearing your views, regardless of whether you are still searching or already married. Also, to the women who are on this board, feel free to post your observations based on your experiences with men either on this board or whom you have met in person.  Thanks.

[Sohkay]

Jen,

Here goes.

The dissatisfaction with American women was not my primary motivation for looking in the FSU for a partner. My primary motivation was my physical attraction to the women of these regions. I love the high set cheekbones and strait noses. And of course, I like the overall physical fitness and proportionate body weights of these women.

Even though, according to your questions, I should go no further in answering your questions because dissatisfaction with American women was NOT my primary motivation, I will offer you a few of my dissatisfactions with American women.

Dissatisfactions with American women.

1) I live in a region where there are somewhat limited numbers of available, single women. There is also a fairly large segment of female homosexuals in my region.

2) I tired of women who took psychological medications, i.e., Prozac, Paxxil, etc. It's as if these drugs create, in some cases, emotional zombies. People where there isn't a normal type of human feeling in relating to them. While I recognize that there are people who really need these drugs to function, I equally recognize that there are many with poor psychological health habits and generally weak psyches that develop an unnecessary dependence on these drugs.

3) I tired of women who were trying to mimic men as a show of their strength or level of "liberation". The mimicking has taken the forms of both behavior AND dress, in many respects.

Why do these problems exist?

1) A wayward course within the feminist movement that went beyond knocking down barriers to equality, and took the movement in an androgynous direction. The growing presence and influence of female homosexuals in the movement was and is a strong contributing factor to this course.

2) Too much focus on the self. A generation or two of dyed in the wool narcissists. This has contributed to the creation of women who are NOT family oriented and focus more on themselves. To me this is tragic and runs contrary to the nurturing nature of the female psyche and all the wonder and beauty that this psyche brings to our existence.

If I think of other points, I will add later.

Sohkay

[Jazzyclassy]

I   think that the clue is  that American women they try to compete with men ,  they fight with them , they try to show who is stronger in this or that way which is wrong, women should remain women, that is my personal point of view, of course they have rights and of course they have their own opinion , but it should not affect their family life and their responsibilities towards husband and kids.

The thing is American women no longer want to be mothers and so to say behind their hubbies ,they want to be independent, business like, possesing some sort of power, they want more people to depend on them  and at the same time they want entertainment and they want to get as much happy- go -lucky- shopping- make up glamorous- life that they do not have time to think about their real purpose and their real aim in the first place!
They refuse their  nature and are becoming like men , slowly but straight!

I met only one American woman in person , I mean the one with whom I did talk pretty good and got to know her interests and thoughts, she was absolutely amazing and Feminism was not her priority as for the author of the topic and other most American women

I think there are such women everywhere who are lost , they do not know what they want,  they lost their instincts about giving birth to kids and taking care of the family , all they want is to be like Jennifer Lopez with her plastic  booty and like  Fergie with her pretty empty head

I do not think it is necessarily American women , it is mostly the phenomenon of western women themselves, also one very strong factor is that they live quite stable, wealthy life , they are spoiled with money , they do not know how to earn money without helping hand and without rich parents helping ,they are out of real world as the matter of fact. I can only feel sympathy for such women and wish that they could open their eyes towards harmony and real sense of what is going on in the World!

[Simoni]

--was a dissatisfaction with American women (or women in your home country, if you are not based in US) the key thing that motivated you to begin searching abroad?

I had no disssaisfaction with American women at all.  My mother is a great woman.  So is my sister.

So, no.   A dissatisfaction with American women was not  the key thing that motivated me to marry a woman from another country.  Her culture was an attraction, however.

Diversity is good.

[Jazzyclassy]

I would also like to add that Russian women are not far from being like western ones, this horrible thing is reaching them as well , so they might become like the women from the whole europe , who claim they want some rights  in order to contribute something to this world, though they do nothing but proving their theories that women are much more better than men .... its silly

[Gator]

feel free to post your observations based on your experiences with men

I have no experiences with men - am I allowed to post?

Assuming yes, I will say this about my two AW girlfriends and my two RW girlfriends since my divorce 6 years ago.

-  AW were more demanding and emphatic about what they wanted from a relationship, while the RW just allowed the relationship to evolve even though marriage is the goal.  I prefer the latter.

-  With AW I had to play amateur therapist about their past failed relationships. In contrast, RW were trying to forget past relationships, and besides saying they did not want to discuss them, they would even claim to have blocked them out.  I do not think either is good.  While RW say "past is past", I contend "past remains with us today in profound ways".  Nor do I wish to dwell on past relationships because I think AW should focus on me rather than past lovers/husbands/etc.

-  Sex - no difference, all four varied widely with no pattern regarding country.

-  Beauty - RW win, but not by much.

-  Body - RW win by a significant margin, but not enough to compel a man to fly 8000 miles just for better body.

-  Age - RW were on average about 7 years younger.

-  Street smarts  - RW win easily, and it is something I appreciate.  They are survivors.

-  Sense of adventure - RW win easily.

-  Emotional stability - RW win easily.  They have seen far worse in the past than they would ever experience with me.

-  Sense of humor - AW win easily, perhaps because this is influenced by culture.

-  Dedication to family - RW win easily, although I had no problems with AW.  RW take it a  tribal level.

-  Self-centered - No difference, all were acceptable.

-  Feminism - I felt no competition pressures with AW, and I do not subscribe to this term other than for a very, very few AW who I would not give the time of day. One RW is driven to accomplish something with her life and she wants to make her own money.

-   Independence - Rather than feminism, can we use the term "independence".  In this regard, I note no difference betwen RW and AW.  I do not have a problem with a woman not living in  man's shadow and receiving the same privileges and treatment as a man.  One RW is driven to accomplish something with her life and she wants to make her own money.  Why deny a woman the "joy of success."  The two RW were survivors and adamant about being ble to take care of themselves.  I support that.


There is a difference between the AW and RW that may explain why RW excelled.  The two AW just happened into my life and came in my early rebound days.  The RW were screened from the Internet and I evaluated a huge number of RW in searching for compatibility.  For whatever reason, I did not return to AW after the first failed RW experience.  I felt a kindred spirit with them, and there so many more attractive RW from whom to choose candidates for correspondence and possible meetings.

There is more but I am  busy these days in Moscow with a fine and decent RW.

[jen]

jazzyclassy said:
I met only one American woman in person , I mean the one with whom I did talk pretty good and got to know her interests and thoughts, she was absolutely amazing and Feminism was not her priority as for the author of the topic and other most American women


Well, for the record, I declared myself a feminist because I do identify that way and I think it is important to be honest here...but for many of us, this does not mean being any less committed to family and children...though I have a career, I have one that allows me to spend a great deal of time with my small child, which is a top priority for me.  The feminists I know do not believe that women should prioritize career over childbearing; only that they should be able to make whichever choice they prefer, and more generally, that it is worth examining, discussing, and debating these issues.

Just my two cents...looking forward to hearing more responses.

[Jazzyclassy]

Well, for the record, I declared myself a feminist because I do identify that way and I think it is important to be honest here...but for many of us, this does not mean being any less committed to family and children...though I have a career, I have one that allows me to spend a great deal of time with my small child, which is a top priority for me.  The feminists I know do not believe that women should prioritize career over childbearing; only that they should be able to make whichever choice they prefer, and more generally, that it is worth examining, discussing, and debating these issues.

Just my two cents...looking forward to hearing more responses.

well I am glad that you feel this way , why are you so worried:) it is just a research no need to be so aggressive....

[jen]

I didn't think I was being aggressive...just entering the discussion in the same spirit as you. I want to hear what all of you guys think, but I should say where I am coming from sometimes, right? 

[KenC]

Hi everyone,

OK, here goes. I am very aware of the fact that you guys have been discussing just about everything there is to discuss about international dating for quite a while now -- which is why I am reading the boards and will continue to make my way through them. However, I also want you to have the chance to respond specifically to me: to let me know what you think I need to hear as a researcher. So, let me start with a specific question and we'll see where that goes.

There was a discussion in one of Ada's threads about why you are attracted to Russian/FSU women, specifically. I would like to look at the flip side of this question and ask:

--was a dissatisfaction with American women (or women in your home country, if you are not based in US) the key thing that motivated you to begin searching abroad?

Not for me.  I was not dissatisfied with American women at all.  But I also knew no different either.  For me, RW were a curiosity more than anything else.  I am of Russian decent so I was naturally curious about Russia in general.  I was also not "wife shopping" as I enjoyed being a bachelor.  How AW negatively compare to RW did not become apparent to me until after I knew much more about RW.

--if so, how would you describe that dissatisfaction?  (From conversations with individuals as well as reading boards like this one, I have seen a number of common responses:  unattractiveness, lack of family orientation, self-centeredness, etc.) What is the central problem as you see it?

From a physical side of things, pretty women here are as pretty as there.  but when you look at the entire groups as a whole, RW tend to be in better shape, dress better and pay much more attention to their looks.  In short, they (RW) seem to try harder to be appealing to men.  AW might do this if they were going on an important date, otherwise it is all blue jeans and casual wear (The ever hated jogging suit).

It is the attitude that is the biggest difference in my mind.  RW LOVE being women!  They are very feminine and sexy whereas AW seem to want to be men.  Most AW have lost (or rejected) their ability to be feminine.  As an example let me explain.  While dating an AW, I decided to rearrange my furniture.  When I went to move a large couch the AW that I was dating jumped up and picked up one end to help.  My Russian wife considers it my duty as a man to carry in the groceries from the car.  RW do not fear to be thought of as less a person for accepting the physical differences between man and woman.  AW desperately desire to be equal on ALL levels.

--why do you think these problems exist?  Do you think that feminism is responsible for these problems, as I have often seen discussed, or something else?  If so, what do you think "feminism" means or includes?

Yes, I blame the feminist movement in America for this de-feminising of AW for sure.  Our American society has accepted that women not only should be equal, but sometimes better than men.  It isn't enough to build up women, but it has become common place to degrade men too.  Look at almost any TV show where there is an intact family involved.  In almost every case the Dad is a helpless and bumbling idiot and the Mom is a pillar of strength and wisdom.  My "favorite" is a credit card commercial toting low interest rates.  The "High Interest Rate Monster" is beating the hell out of the male figure until the female character intercedes and physically beats the monster.  What is the message sent here?  That men are weak and women are strong.  Sorry, but that isn't real life or at least it wasn't real life before the feminist movement took hold.  The flip side to this is that AM have also become much less manly in their ways too.  AW have become more masculine and AM more feminine and the gender roles have become confused.  There is no such confusion with a RW.
KenC

[KenC]

I didn't think I was being aggressive...just entering the discussion in the same spirit as you. I want to hear what all of you guys think, but I should say where I am coming from sometimes, right? 

Jen.
Yes of course you should.  For the record, Jazzyclassy is a RW that has never been to America and as she admitted, only has known one AW. 
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

Jen.
Yes of course you should.  For the record, Jazzyclassy is a RW that has never been to America and as she admitted, only has known one AW. 
KenC

So what, I do not need to go to America to see what is going on there

[KenC]

So what, I do not need to go to America to see what is going on there

I think you do if you are going to present a valid opinion.  I would never try to interject my opinion in an area where I knew so little first hand.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

Yeah Ken C the same old song from you I prefer to stop here otherwise you would start your insulting speech again:) I want to be friends:)


It seems to me that Jennifer is bothered with the fact that a lot of American men are  going for Russian women and it is not that she is so much interested in research project , it is just she is scared that soon many american guys would just go finding their wives not in the USA but somewhere else

I understand this and I think that there is no need to worry , cos American men still got a lot of misunderstandings with russian culture and I doubt they all would float here to Russia:) in search for women

never worry , be calm:)

[jb]

It seems to me that Jennifer is bothered with the fact that a lot of American men are  going for Russian women and it is not that she is so much interested in research project , it is just she is scared that soon many american guys would just go finding their wives not in the USA but somewhere else

Out of the mouths of babes...   This is the crux of the feminist objection to International dating.

[BC]

--was a dissatisfaction with American women (or women in your home country, if you are not based in US) the key thing that motivated you to begin searching abroad?

I had no intentions or even thoughts of marrying a woman from FSU until I met my wife.  Was just one of those right place, right time scenarios.

--if so, how would you describe that dissatisfaction?  (From conversations with individuals as well as reading boards like this one, I have seen a number of common responses:  unattractiveness, lack of family orientation, self-centeredness, etc.) What is the central problem as you see it?

I was previously married for 2 years to an AW when I was very young.  Back then I found there were a lot of nice looking, available, sexy women my age. Even at 30 there were still quite a few desirable women.  If anything, when one finds them self in their mid 40's or more,  either divorced or still unmarried, they will probably have to  search quite extensively for a woman with the qualities they seek.  The central problem? - They simply 'missed the bus' or were not able to qualify for the attention of these remaining women.

--why do you think these problems exist?  Do you think that feminism is responsible for these problems, as I have often seen discussed, or something else?  If so, what do you think "feminism" means or includes?

No, feminism is not the problem, but having missed the bus one might find that the remaining population of desirable, yet available females within the same age and social group may be largely comprised of women who have built careers and are not yet willing to give up their positions and status until later in life.  I also believe women at this stage that have appealing  physical and mental attributes are quite popular and can choose to be rather 'picky' with whom they start a relationship with. 

[pitbull]

Hi Jen,

This topic is very interesting, but as a fellow researcher, I'd like to comment on a problem that I see with it. It's a "definition" problem. Your question is largely built on the notion of "feminism", which is a complicated phenomenon with quite a long history and movements within "feminism", which differ greatly.

Obviously, each board member has his or her "understanding" of feminism, and judges from this personal "understanding", which results in quite primitive generalizations (Sorry, Jazzy  ) e.g.:that feminism necessarily leads to all American women having " lost their instincts about giving birth to kids and taking care of the family" (C)

So, maybe, it's possible to find a common definition of what "feminism" actually is and what it stands for?

Not to digress: I'm not a RW, but what is called here, an FSUW  , and consider myself a feminist in exactly the way you define yourself as a feminist, and in the core meaning of the word: women  "should be able to make whichever choice they prefer, and more generally, that it is worth examining, discussing, and debating these issues".

And before the men here start assuming about my personal life's failures: I'm married to an American guy an he's absolutely happy with me and mu views  

[jen]

Re: the comment from jazzy:  Hmm, well, not really where I am coming from -- as I tried to explain in the initial conversation about my work -- but that's okay... I want to learn more about the perspectives of all of you, and hopefully over time we will get to know each other better.

Thanks, pitbull, for the comment. I agree that "feminism" is a diffuse and complex term and that this can lead to fuzziness in a discussion. The problem is, I'm not interested in imposing a definition. I am waiting to hear all of your definitions so that we can build from there...since the word "feminism" is used often here, I'd like to know what is most often meant by the term as all of you understand it. (There might be multiple, even conflicting, understandings -- or maybe a great deal of consensus. That's what I'd like to understand better.)

thanks, j.

[Bruno]

...
There was a discussion in one of Ada's threads about why you are attracted to Russian/FSU women, specifically. I would like to look at the flip side of this question and ask:

--was a dissatisfaction with American women (or women in your home country, if you are not based in US) the key thing that motivated you to begin searching abroad?

A european here...

No really dissatisfaction with local women... simply, during the 9 first year of my active life ( stop school and begin work ), it was more easy to date foreign ladies... i was a sailor in the royal navy... around 2 month year in my country for 10 outside...

I am not specialy attracted to RW... in the begin, i have appreciate friendship with RM ( Russian men )... friendship difficult to earn but once you have it, they are like brother... RM, when go out, date RW... since i was with these RM, why not make the same...

One time in my life, i have meet a lady who was a mix from a black mother ( Ethiopia ) and a Japans man... the resultat was wonderfull... but she was already married  and so mix is difficult to find...

Now, it is a little different for me that for your US male... FSU is around two hours flight from Bruxelles ( Moscow, Kiev, Odessa )... like a men from Texa who date a lady from New-york... more... my country ( Belgium ) have a population a little more low that Moscow... all the country is around 150 km on 250 km... we have border with a lot of other country... so, international dating is not so unusual there... let say that it is like a men from one US state dating a ladie from a other state...

Ok, i think that European situation will be not really interesting for your study... for us, FSU ladies are like Mexican or Canadian ladies for you...

About American women, not a lot of experience... only one that i have date in 1989 in Texas... half india... not a feminazi, and very cute... i have see other girls but very few was ugly... but in these time, i was only 21... and i was at beach party with student around the same age... it is always like in these time, cafe closing early at 01h00 in the night ? And all the young going on the beach for party and drink !!!

[Makkin]

Hello Jen,

  Glad you decided to drop in and visit. Glad you asked questions that you would like answers to. My opinions are small but many of our members will help in this.

  Women are wonderful to watch as they walk and talk and play. Men are blessed to be able to enjoy this process of observation and interaction. It appears that men are lucky to be blessed with being men. (In my opinion..lol)

  I really respect women who are mothers and hard workers. A mother is nothing but a hard worker in my opinion and she deserves the label of "mother" This label is something that has been tarnished it seems as we watch the aggressive nature of feminism and what it can sow? How can a womans self-esteem on the basic notion of motherhood not suffer under all this scrutiny and discussion of what and how to think regarding men? Maybe I'm wrong? In any case it seems women are confused at this time?

  Men who seek the FSU women are not different from most men as they all have basic desires and things of that nature. It seems they want to meet and date and marry a woman they believe is suited for them. If they travel to the FSU and find that woman then my congratulations go out to them as I am happy for them(many do) but in the end they will probably work harder with this marriage than they will with an American or western woman because of language etc..

  I applaud these men for doing this process the right way while respecting and caring for the women that they are involved with. It shows the evoulution of MEN in many respects and how they are able to move in the world and seek what they and the partner they choose both desire.

  When men went to war in the 1940's we had thousands of marriages to these women from Germany,France,etc..nobody talked much about it. Now we have men who do the same thing in a way that is similar if you do your homework?

Thanks,

Makkin

 

[Mir]

When men went to war in the 1940's we had thousands of marriages to these women from Germany,France,etc..nobody talked much about it. Now we have men who do the same thing in a way that is similar if you do your homework?

If one has terminal cancer then a marriage is far from ones mind even if miss world is on offer.
That is because in desperate times there are a lot other things to think about.
The world war was a huge catastrophe. People heard, read and often witnessed unbelievable horrors. Marriage between an American and a German was quite unlikely to be a topic of much debate then.

[BC]

The world war was a huge catastrophe. People heard, read and often witnessed unbelievable horrors. Marriage between an American and a German was quite unlikely to be a topic of much debate then.

There was obviously enough attention to enact the War Brides Act in 1945.

[Wayne B]

Hello Jen,

   Men who seek the FSU women are not different from most men as they all have basic desires and things of that nature. It seems they want to meet and date and marry a woman they believe is suited for them. If they travel to the FSU and find that woman then my congratulations go out to them as I am happy for them(many do) but in the end they will probably work harder with this marriage than they will with an American or western woman because of language etc..

  I applaud these men for doing this process the right way while respecting and caring for the women that they are involved with. It shows the evoulution of MEN in many respects and how they are able to move in the world and seek what they and the partner they choose both desire.

 

Makkin, I like this.....I know that I am a rookie in marriage to a woman from the FSU. I have a long hard road ahead of me, to make this work.....That being said....and what you have said....yes, the language barrier does tend to make a man seeking a woman from the FSU work harder to learn this/her way of life.....a struggle from the start....but, I think that this struggle will melt the 'glue' needed to cement together a long and lasting relationship....because of the initial hard work that it took/takes from the beginning

[Admin]

Jen,

I have been married previously to an American woman. I also had American girlfriends. I found, and find, nothing especially 'wrong' about American women. I do sometimes feel like the American way of life pressures both men and women in particular directions that maybe unhealthy for some, but admittedly, my impressions along these lines come as much from reading about the struggles of American women (widespread depression, for example), as from first-hand experience.

In my case, for some reason, I have always held a long-standing interest in the Far East - Hong Kong, in particular. In fact, my honeymoon with my AW was to Hong Kong and then onto Thailand. Some years later, that interest never abated, and I was privileged to be able to work extensively in India and Asia. Beginning in about 1995, I spent the better part of 3 years traveling to numerous countries in Asia for business. I also lived in Taiwan for the better part of 1997.

While traveling and living in Asia, I saw many many couples in which one partner was from the west, and the other was local. I was quite favorably struck by the strength (for want of a better word) in the majority of those inter-cultural unions. Naturally, I compared and contrasted to the marriages I knew of back home in the US, including my own. While the strongest of the relationships back home were the equal of the inter-cultural unions I was witnessing - it was the sheer percentage of apparently happy marriages overseas (as compared to those at home) which I soon noted. This is purely my impression and the opinion I formed. It may not be supported in any way by a valid statistical analysis, if one exists.

In 1998, I moved from Taiwan to Germany - family in-tow (AW and 2 sons). While in Germany, I again witnessed the same phenomenon I had seen in Asia, with one difference. In Asia, nearly all (one or two exceptions) the couples consisted of an American (or British or Dutch) man, married to a local woman. In Germany, we met numerous couples in which an American woman was married to a German man - one of whom was the English/German tutor for my eldest son.

Still, the common denominator seemed the strength and satisfaction of these inter-cultural unions. I was, and I remain, convinced that those unions are stronger on balance than the 'normal' unions of marriage in the US between an AM/AW.

While living in Germany in 1998, I made my first trip to Ukraine - again, for business. Over the course of the next several years, I made many trips to Ukraine, spending approximately a third of my time there.

I should also point out that I did have an earlier illumination which most probably influenced my decision to begin traveling to Ukraine for business. While on a personal trip from Germany to Jordan with my family, we had a layover in Istanbul. I could not help but notice a large gathering of unusually beautiful women. While not unusual to see one or two women who might catch your eye anytime one flies, THIS was different in that there were dozens of strikingly lovely women congregating at this one particular gate. I noted that they were awaiting departure of a flight to Kyiv. I presume they were Ukrainians returning home from holiday - but I may be wrong. Regardless, the impression was, once again, formed and I suspect it had something to do with my early choices.

During the time I was traveling to Ukraine on business, my AW and I were experiencing difficulties that led to our eventual separation in 2000 and subsequent divorce. I was also continuing to travel to Ukraine, and was, of course, exposed to meeting men and women in Ukraine. One of the people I met told his family about me and that my marriage was ending. His mother knew my current wife's mother - and they spoke and arranged for us to meet during one of my trips. We met, had lunch, began to get to know each other - and then met for dinner the next day - got to know each other more deeply - and then shortly thereafter spent most of the time I was in Ukraine together. It was another 6 months or so till we decided to marry, and then she joined me in the US in the summer of 2001.

I have often told people that I was open to any relationship with a women from any nation. In some ways, it strikes me a bit odd that my wife would come from Ukraine, as I have always been fond of the olive-complected and dark-haired beauties from the Latin American countries - but I seriously could have married 'the right person' from any country, including the US.

Let me know if you have additional questions.

- Dan

[Sohkay]

Well, for the record, I declared myself a feminist because I do identify that way and I think it is important to be honest here...but for many of us, this does not mean being any less committed to family and children...though I have a career, I have one that allows me to spend a great deal of time with my small child, which is a top priority for me.  The feminists I know do not believe that women should prioritize career over childbearing; only that they should be able to make whichever choice they prefer, and more generally, that it is worth examining, discussing, and debating these issues.

Just my two cents...looking forward to hearing more responses.

jen,

It's interesting how you prove a point with your own writing. You don't write about spending a great deal of time with your husband...just the child. And the same with the feminists you know...childbearing is not prioritized over career. Again, no mention of the man. And I believe you are correct. I'm sure many feminist mothers try to maximize their time with their children. And many feminist career women place a priority on childbearing. But there is no mention of the family, of which the husband (spouse) is an integral part. It appears to be an exclusionary attitude. What good, responsible man who truly desires to be a good and loving husband and a good and loving father would allow himself to enter and stay in a relationship where he was regarded in this manner?