Question for the ladies-How important is a mans education?

[acrzybear]

I saw the other thread regarding women and education and that got me thinking about what do women from FSU consider more important-A man with higher education or a man with a good steady income that is able to comfortably provide for the family?

One man has an good civil service job with excellent medical and retirement benefits, he gets 5 weeks vacation every year (plus 3 1/2 weeks sick time)  he can afford travel to foreign countries a couple of times a year, he has no debt except for the monthly bills (insurance, electric etc..), he is considered by his peers and friends to be somewhat intelligent, however he does not have a college degree.

 The second man has higher education (we'll say a masters degree) has a student loan he's paying off, has a mortgage, etc... but has an excellent income and a good job (but not as secure as the first guy).

 Everyone seems to place a high importance on a degree, however I believe that not everyone is meant for college (I'm one).  If a guy is fairly intelligent and is well read on a number of subjects- Is a diploma that important? Is a not having a diploma a deal breaker? 

 I know there are different personalities and interests and such, but I am just curious about the importance of a diploma. I am also curious as to why your answer is the way it is.

Thanks 

   

 

[ECOCKS]

Bear, I think you're gonna find that on an initial first impression the degree wins. The FSU's knowledge of stability just doesn't translate too well. Think how many of them regard policemen for example. Because of that, their first impression is that someone with "qualifications" is going to come out on top in the long run. That is, unless you're fishing with pictures of your yacht and home in the Hamptons.

To be fair, I found this to be a generally held view in all of Europe. For those who have technical backgrounds, it is like the shock and awe factor of being a CNE or MCSE back in the 90's or having Cisco certs around 2000. I was somewhat shocked at the way many talk about having "certs" which were considered absolute requirements for jobs and promotions.

My favorite response to many questions about the FSU applies, "Form Over Substance." It makes little difference how efficient (or inefficient) you are as long as you look good while you are carrying it out. Witness Yulia, the populist PM, or even Yanukovitch, the thug strongman PM.

[Lily]

This question should actually be in the section 'Ask a Russian woman', don't you think so?

I'd say education AND occupation of the man are very important. It would eventually be the first thing that woman looks on in the profile. Weeding out the unwanted species often goes by this parameters.

The reasons may be that those both things may eventually be considered the things that  sort of 'make' the person. In french, education is 'formation', the thing that has 'formed' the person throughout his or her life. In a person, education is shown everytime and everywhere, in his ability to communicate, his manner of talking, in his building his sentences, in his perception what is good and bad, etc. Unlike in the FSU with equal quality education for everyone, good education in the West sometimes indicates an offspring from a well off family. This may be another criterion for RW to consider - they sometimes prefer 'old money'.

Sometimes however, education and upbringing are mixed up. I agree that there is a fine line here. For example, the late Lady Diana is well mannered but no education. A number of people in the FSU have a doctorate but cannot make a good impression in the society. Often a well educated person equally received good manners from home.
Perhaps when RW look up the profiles they imply that a well educated person is also well mannered.

As for the occupation, this is another important factor to consider. I tend to believe that we are what we do. Proceeding from the point that by choosing our profession we follow our natural inlcinations and talents, I think that our profession is imprinted in our personality. Occupation is what we do every day from morning till night. If asked 'what are you', we reply that we are that and that meaning our profession. Of note, I mostly mean the professional occupations here.

I think this point is cornerstone for many RW when they prononce their disregard for some occupations and preference for the others. For instance, I heard that the military and related jobs are often out of favor. I think that is mainly because that this occupation may primarily mean exercising violence for many women, and not the fact that they are often far from home on missions. On the other hand, take the medical doctors. This occupation in men is often sought after. For women, a doctor may undermine strenght and power combined with best intentions in relation to humans. Doctors are perceived to be strong but kind and reliant.

Please note that when talking about occupations, I don't mention the earning potential of this or that profession. Personality counts.

[acrzybear]

Lily

As always your comment is very well written and insightful.

P.S I was not aware of the section you mentioned, by all means the mods can move it there if they wish.

[acrzybear]

  Although I did use my situation as a rough guide for the 1st scenario, my main purpose was to probe the minds of some of the ladies we have participating on this forum.  I have always been interested ion the thought processes of different cultures and since the are more posts about the guys I thought it would be interesting to find an opposing view.

 As far as myself-we'll I don't see myself changing much in the near future, I just find life more interesting then listening to some professor ramble on about things that I really don't care about.  I prefer to explore and discover things for myself instead of sitting in a classroom reading about it.

[SANDRO43]

I prefer to explore and discover things for myself instead of sitting in a classroom reading about it.

Quite understandable, however there are subjects where some teacher/tutor/instructor is very useful or essential to speed up the process, or even to approach it.

When I retired in 1998, I spent part of my time in the 3 following years at a private school called Uni3 (University for the 3 Ages ) brushing up on some long-neglected languages (Spanish, Russian) and sampling new ones (Classical Greek, Japanese, Arabic). Although the tutors were mostly retired teachers working for free - and their quality was VERY variable - I could not have acquired as much entirely on my own. The simple fact of having a regular routine - and occasional home assignments - was crucial in keeping me focussed.

Years before, I could not have obtained my scuba-diving, sailing and flying licenses without formal instruction - those subjects can hardly be learned with self-study alone, not to mention their necessary practice sessions .

[Sculpto]

Sandro my friend you have just pointed out one of the fundamental differences between the American and European. 

We love to do it ourselves.  We are smarter than the teacher.  We will break all the rules.  And we will invent something new. 

Well, thats how it used to be anyway..   Going forward who knows..

But I get your point.  Pretty sure Bear does too..

[SANDRO43]

Sandro my friend you have just pointed out one of the fundamental differences between the American and European.  We love to do it ourselves.  We are smarter than the teacher.  We will break all the rules.  And we will invent something new. 

Eric, I doubt you could have understood much about Art without someone giving you some rudiments.

In my earlier university times in the 1970s, I took History of Art for 2 consecutive years: our teacher was an esteemed art critic also writing for a major newspaper, and his 45-minute lessons consisted of a 15-minute introduction to the topic of the day, and 30 minutes of commentary to the colour slides he projected.

It was an eye- and mind-opening experience .

[Sculpto]

Eric, I doubt you could have understood much about Art without someone giving you some rudiments.

In my earlier university times in the 1970s, I took History of Art for 2 consecutive years: our teacher was an esteemed art critic also writing for a major newspaper, and his 45-minute lessons consisted of a 15-minute introduction to the topic of the day, and 30 minutes of commentary to the colour slides he projected.

It was an eye- and mind-opening experience .

Actually Sandro.. the best thing about where I studied was there was absolutely no structure whatsoever.  We had access to the profs when we needed them, but, the expectation was to figure things out, create your own language and most importantly, DO IT.  In respect to technical stuff.. here is an example.. a few of us wanted to try to cast iron.. Department chair said.. "can't do it" so we researched it, devised a makeshift system, gathered all the materials, assembled the furnace.. then dragged the teacher over.. his response.. "I knew you guys could do it" 

I could rebuild that system for $50 bucks and three days of work.. though, the neighbors might not like the roar of an iron furnace.  lol

Certainly an unconventional method, but, judging by the success of most of my classmates, it worked and quite well.

In contrast.. I know of an art school where formalism is the rule and the curriculum is really structured.  Funny how many people from that school end up being career restaurant servers.

But anyway... to get back on topic.. Bear has a unique situation that will make his search a little different than for a lot of people.  Personally I don't think it matters if he finds a woman with degrees or not.. just that he finds one that loves him.  If she loves him, whatever little letters he has next to his name aren't going to matter one bit.

[SANDRO43]

Actually Sandro.. the best thing about where I studied was there was absolutely no structure whatsoever.  We had access to the profs when we needed them, but, the expectation was to figure things out, create your own language and most importantly, DO IT. 

I doubt it could be as unstructured as you claim it to be . No syllabus? Exams only consisting in "Show us what you did this year" in ANY subject ? And you accessed your profs for what reason, apart from iron furnaces ?

[Doll]

One man has an good civil service job with excellent medical and retirement benefits, he gets 5 weeks vacation every year (plus 3 1/2 weeks sick time)  he can afford travel to foreign countries a couple of times a year, he has no debt except for the monthly bills (insurance, electric etc..), he is considered by his peers and friends to be somewhat intelligent, however he does not have a college degree.

 The second man has higher education (we'll say a masters degree) has a student loan he's paying off, has a mortgage, etc... but has an excellent income and a good job (but not as secure as the first guy).

I'd prefer the latter

[Sculpto]

I doubt it could be as unstructured as you claim it to be . No syllabus? Exams only consisting in "Show us what you did this year" in ANY subject ? And you accessed your profs for what reason, apart from iron furnaces ?

Not in all subjects.. in the sculpture department, ceramics and painting.  Though, there were some students who had completely open study.  I didn't choose that because I liked the break from studio, though, in my final year I did it.  For example, the art history that year was "Modern Sculpture".. so I presented a 45 page + illustrations history of modern sculpture with the theme of comparing Einsteins theory of relativity and the time space continuum to how sculptors of the 20th century applied and adapted his science to visual expression.  Cubism etc...   

The profs were used frequently to discuss conceptual issues, ideas, and sometimes technical stuff.  Final critiques were exactly that, "show us what you did this year" and the critical analysis was intense.  We were madmen, stayed up for days on end.. cooked meat on fire every night outdoors, even in the middle of ice storms, explored abandoned factories, dismantled condemned bridges to get free materials, tinkered around with all kinds of explosives, all kinds of really insane and sometimes illegal things.. it was an amazing time.

One of my classmates have work at the New York MOMA.. a lot are collected in other major museums, one gal had a meeting with the queen of England two weeks ago, she studied sculpture but became a fashion designer and has made stuff for the queen.. one is a musician most of you have heard of.. etc etc etc...

[acrzybear]

I'd prefer the latter

Doll

 Could you please elaborate?

To others that have  (or will read) this topic I just want to clarify that although I used my situation as a rough draft in the two comparisons, This is not about  me or my search (or non search) of a partner.  I am curious as to if a degree in higher education is a high priority for the ladies on this board and if so why it is so important.  I am curious as to why one culture places such high importance on education and another might not.

 

[HiTech]

I have found that understanding the AM education system as compared to the FSU system very difficult for my wife.

As way of example a cert / degree is was / (is I am not sure) a very important thing for advancement in the FSU. As a way of showing this, just look at how easy a degree can be purchased in the FSU.

A person may be able to purchase a degree in the USA, it might get them entry into a field, but if they did not have the knowledge they would not last long in most fields.

In the USA degrees except for a few very regulated ones in legal accounting health and a few engineering fields, most degrees are only starting points and become meaning less after 5 years of being in the work force. But the paper got your foot in the door, and the learning to learn part of collage help the person accel.

HiTech

[acrzybear]

Quite understandable, however there are subjects where some teacher/tutor/instructor is very useful or essential to speed up the process, or even to approach it.

Sandro

I understand and agree completely, let me clarify my thoughts.  Having someone experienced in a particular subject to teach/guide you through that subject is great and is needed to assist you when you come to "roadblocks", however if I am not particularly interested in  a subject (such as math, economics, etc..) I will not sit in the class unless it is required for my job.  However English and  history I find very interesting and have no problems with attending a class.  I know that higher education is supposed to teach a person how to do research and formulate their thoughts and how to apply those thoughts and ideas in a cohesive manner, however I think I have done just fine without spending countless hours and getting in debt listening to someone that has not work outside the academic world.  I am a veracious reader and have read everything from Mein Kampf to War and Peace to regularly reading and interpreting complex legal documents/decisions.  If I am curious about a subject I will research it, if I am in a discussion I like to know the other persons point of view and then use that to disprove their argument (or to disprove my idea).

  Now if you and I were talking and you went on about various IBM systems and programs,bits, bytes or math I would look at you like a deer in the headlights.  I have no interest in any of those subjects and quit frankly I believe they are way above my level of thinking.  

I can balance my checking account, I can figure out the basic things I need to know, but I have no use in my day to day life for certain subjects.  

As far as the American education system-it stinks!! I left high school at 17,  took the GED and scored in the mid to high 90s on everything but math (had to get 50 to pass and I got 51) and I am a Supervisor of several Officers with college and or university degrees and I can write a better paper then they can.

 Looking back at everything I have been very lucky in my life.  

[Taz]

Bear - like it or not, many women find a degree important. They want to look up to their man BUT that is not the only criteria used but it can be a major one. Fortunately for you there are LOTS of women out there. There is sure to be a woman who can appreciate your unique gifts.

I had a good friend (God rest his soul) that didn't complete high school until about 5 years ago. He found a good woman in Ukraine. He found a good woman in Ukraine. They fell in love. He was even living at his parent's home at the time. Normally this is NOT a good sign. She came to the US to live with him as she felt he was a good man.

With her encouragement he got his GED. He was promoted at the factory where he was working and was a great father to her child. She became pregnant with his child. They were incredibly happen. Unfortunately a tragic accident ended his life and his wife returned back to UA with her child and their joint child.

Bottom line is there is likely someone for everyone. Even some of the more "difficult" members here. It may be more challenging but you can likely find someone who will appreciate you for who you are! A good woman can make you a better man.

[elliott]

Often, a college degree merely shows that a person made it through four+ years of partying but shows little about that person's degree of intelligence.  Additionally, I can confidently say that many college graduates work in a field that is unrelated to the area of study in which they received their degree.  However, to stay on topic, if a woman wants a man with a Master's degree and a hundred-thousand+ dollar student loan, then I say go get 'em tiger!

[possum]

Bear,

In the Soviet Union a diploma was a must have for anyone who wished to be respected and never looked down upon as a second class citizen, regardless of their earning potential.. Because the Soviets were the smartest and most educated people on Earth - everybody knows that - anyone with a diploma was automatically an intellectual, a person rather than an insect, for those who are familiar with the saying.. That's the mentality you're going to have to deal with if you're targeting women who were raised in the Soviet Union.. Now, for the younger generation, it's a different story.. A diploma itself means very little to them.. It's simply a requirement for an office type job, you know the kind where you don't have to actually do anything.. They understand that you can have a diploma and still be an imbecile, or not have a diploma and just be miserable..

Also, higher education is a way for guys to avoid serving in the military.. That right there is the biggest attraction of college/university for all Russian males aged 17-27..

[acrzybear]

Thanks for the information Taz & Possum

This thread is not about me or anything to do with my situation.  I understand some of the dynamics, however I am interested in the opinion of the ladies here and as to why they would personally prefer one over the other.   

[Taz]

You could look on the Russian websites and see what they are looking for in the profiles if you understand any Russian. Some women do spell it out there. I would bet that most (of course not all) RW with a higher education will be looking for their man to be comparable in this area.

I do work with a few RW and one in a particular will not date anyone without a degree. The other one definitely prefers but has dated AM without a degree but they need to be very well mannered.

As mentioned earlier, maybe post this in the ask a Russian woman section rather than here. You could post a poll and maybe get more responses that way. Some people don't post but might respond to a poll.

[Ade]

I saw the other thread regarding women and education and that got me thinking about what do women from FSU consider more important-A man with higher education or a man with a good steady income that is able to comfortably provide for the family?  

One man has an good civil service job with excellent medical and retirement benefits, he gets 5 weeks vacation every year (plus 3 1/2 weeks sick time)  he can afford travel to foreign countries a couple of times a year, he has no debt except for the monthly bills (insurance, electric etc..), he is considered by his peers and friends to be somewhat intelligent, however he does not have a college degree.

 The second man has higher education (we'll say a masters degree) has a student loan he's paying off, has a mortgage, etc... but has an excellent income and a good job (but not as secure as the first guy).

 Everyone seems to place a high importance on a degree, however I believe that not everyone is meant for college (I'm one).  If a guy is fairly intelligent and is well read on a number of subjects- Is a diploma that important? Is a not having a diploma a deal breaker?  

 I know there are different personalities and interests and such, but I am just curious about the importance of a diploma. I am also curious as to why your answer is the way it is.

Thanks  

  

 

So here are the thoughts of my awesome fiancée and I. Yes, it's true there are a lot of women that focus on a potential partner's education and career but not all women are so shallow. Both my fiancée and I know that education and career do not guarantee a person's intelligence or personality - in fact, I have worked with some of the most highly educated and intelligent people in the world and I can assure you that not a few are also the most boring and/or irritating people to be around.

One of the issues you may face is that a lot of the women actively seeking a foreign husband are doing so to improve their lifestyle as well as to find a partner so, right or wrong, their perception of what makes a "good provider" will probably include a higher education and a white collar job. But would you want a woman like that anyway? There are definitely women out there looking for a compatible partner above all else regardless of their education, job, wealth and social status. I've seen your posts and you're a bright guy, certainly very far from stupid and I don't think you will have many problems showing that to the right women.

[acrzybear]

I saw the other thread regarding women and education and that got me thinking about what do women from FSU consider more important-A man with higher education or a man with a good steady income that is able to comfortably provide for the family?

 I know there are different personalities and interests and such, but I am just curious about the importance of a university/college diploma. I am also curious as to why your answer is the way it is.  Also for the ladies exposed to foreign cultures, has you opinion changed in this matter since living or being married to a foreigner?

Thanks 

[Blues Fairy]

College degree means nothing to me but advanced education, such as one or more Master's degrees, is paramount.  Usually it demonstrates that a person possesses such essential skills as clear abstract reasoning, independent research, articulate speech and writing, ability to handle complex concepts, ability to use facts to support one's PoV, etc. - all that is essential in a person with whom I plan to spend considerable time under one roof. 

In my search, I set filters to the highest level of education: MA/PhD, and found my match. 

[SANDRO43]

Now if you and I were talking and you went on about various IBM systems and programs,bits, bytes or math I would look at you like a deer in the headlights. I have no interest in any of those subjects and quit frankly I believe they are way above my level of thinking.

Possibly because no one ever presented them in an interesting way, and they're certainly not ABOVE your level of thinking, just OUTSIDE . Let me give you a couple of personal experiences.

1. I already related some time ago how mathematics had ALWAYS been my weak subject throughout my school career, only to discover years later, after reading the September issue of Scientific American devoted to it, that it could be a fascinating subject, too. I blamed my typically spinster math teachers for my aversion to it, and the resulting bad scores. Too late to become an ardent mathematician, anyway I had other things (getting my MA in foreign languages while also working at IBM) on my plate at the time.

2. I discovered to my horror upon joining IBM as a Technical Writer that I was supposed to write about ACCOUNTING , another subject I had always detested from afar and considered excruciatingly boring. I was part of an international project developing basic applications (Billing, Stock Control, Gen.Acc., Accts.Rec., Accts. Pay.) for the new IBM System/3 for small businesses. Resigned to the dirty hand that destiny had dealt me  (I also had plans to get married shortly), I started looking around for something that could help me cover my absolute ignorance of the subject, and found an introductory US book that approached it from a beginner's level with a story that started more or less like this:

"John and Jack decide to form their own company, each contributing $1,000 (it was the late 1960s ). The first entry in their accounting book is therefore":

Cash: $2,000 (credit) - Shareholders' Equity: $2,000 (debit)

And that started explaining the mystery of double-entry bookkeeping (an Italian invention, I later discovered). With that simple but effective aid I was later able to discover a few design flaws in our applications, and have the developers correct them. Neither did I become an enthusiastic accountant after that, but discovered that accounting was an interesting piece of machinery well within my capabilities of comprehension.

My point is: it's all in the presentation and delivery, one can make surprising discoveries if these are good .

[Gator]

First, are the two a dichotomy in normal times?  A good, higher education is usually part and parcel of a steady job.

Education is not a mandatory criterion.  In contrast, financial stability is mandatory considering the economic turmoil RW have experienced over the past 20 years and their desire not to worry about money if they were to move to America.  Financial stability is not the same as being wealthy.  While almost every RW would like for her husband to be rich  (just as men would wish that she have large perfect breasts  ), it is neither mandatory nor expected.  With the smart RW, wealth is not a sole determinant.

So how does a RW decide whether the man has financial stability.

Let us assume a case of a RW corresponding and talking with two men.  She has got to know both fairly well:

-  One man has a university degree yet has bounced from job to job in this down economy, and is working at a temporary position not requiring a university degree (my older son). 

-  The second man has only a high school degree yet has an important job where he has worked without interruption for many years.  While the job is limited as far as advancement, the income is steady and as assured as anything today (sounds like a bear I know).

In this example, the second man wins hands down.  The first man should not even consider RW.  He is contented for now just dating, such as a bartender who graduated with honors with a degree in advertising (my son).

Let us consider another example.  A RW has received introductory letters from two men.  They are as described above, except she does not know the degreed man is bouncing from job to job, and she does not have enough information to realize the steady nature of the second man's job. 

She would probably use the degree as surrogate for financial stability and have a higher FIRST impression of the first man, all else being equal.  All else is never equal, however.  So I would think she would respond to both and want to know more.

Bear, in your case specifically, almost every RW would assume that you make BIG money because you are a policeman, and not only that you are the chief policeman!  They would also assume that you are crooked. ]


With regard to status, education was more widely important during Soviet days.   Thus, RW 40-yo or over could perhaps attach more importance to education.  The younger RW probably will not attach much significance to education except the highly educated RW or a RW from a professional family.