What are the odds of success?

[jone]

I was just ruminating on your thoughts, Bill.

I grew up in a small town in Wisconsin.  The number of students in my graduating class was around 85.  Of those, perhaps 70% were farmers or in the ag business.  Out of my graduating class, all but 30 of us got married almost out of high school.  Many are grandparents already.  Some are retired.  We've lost three out of the 85 that are now pushing up sod.

Of the 30, almost all of us pursued advanced education.  My education was in Wisconsin, but unlike most of my fellow local graduates, I pulled up stakes after college and moved to Southern California.  The number of my fellow students who moved out of state was less than 20.

Almost immediately upon leaving college, I started a family.  My children are now out of high school, one is out of college.  I became involved in my industry and traveled to Washington, sometimes to lobby and sometimes to speak.  I should point out that in college, I chose Russian as my foreign language to study.

Part of my business life took me over to Russia and Eastern Europe.  Out of my graduating class of local kids from Wisconsin, to my knowledge, I am the only one who has traveled internationally for business or my profession.

Upon arriving in Russia, I have made many friends.  I also have many friends in Ukraine. 

So, here is what I have gleaned from my own personal experience:

Those of us seeking an FSU match are a rather unique set of individuals.  We are, by nature, the extroverts.  A great percentage of us are entrepreneurs.   We are usually successful in business.  We typically vote conservatively, and trust in our own abilities rather than that of the government.  We are not scared of calculated risk, but do the most we can to minimize that risk.  We travel light and seek out experiences that make our lives fulfilling.  Seeking a woman overseas is as much about the experience as it is about finding a life's soul mate.  Yet, ultimately, we are not satisfied with a woman who cannot expand our horizons, while at the same time she must be able to provide family values.   She must be exceptional in appearance and be able to handle our unique perspective.  However, if she comes with some baggage, such as a child or an unusual past, that is merely a small obstacle to overcome

One of the reasons that men fail in their pursuit of an FSU woman is that they set the bar so high in terms of expectations, that while searching, few women can pull off a match with such a man. 

We talk about the losers on this forum, but from my perspective, the winners are just as hard to match, simply because they have expectations that were not realized in the Western Countries and most often have trouble settling on someone in the FSU. 

Elena Petrova, god bless her soul, writes to her FSU women to expand their horizons and give them reason to interact.  But Bill, I will tell you, and you know this to be true:  Very few men who travel to Eastern Europe have trouble communicating with a woman.  Especially yourself.

[Miquel Westano]

Hi all. Don't come here very often anymore. In august....Vika and I will be married 12 years. Time flies. I hesitate ......to offer advice here anymore. An awful lot of "advice givers" here who have been here for years.....but have yet to visit the FSU. 5% (+/-) seems a realistic figure. When I joined the original RWG discussion group back in 1998......there were only about 350 members. A tight knit group. Lots of offline phone calls (pre skype). Several of those guys became good friends....and still are. The actual number of guys visiting the FSU (RWG members) was more like 20 - 25%. Most of the trolls were ignored.....and eventually found another board to pester. Tver, Moscow & St. Pete were probably the most popular cities. Many talk about "over-fished" places that should be avoided. I think any place that suits your fancy.....is a good place to visit. Currently Ukraine is very popular. Times are extremely tough there (and dangerous).  My number one rule was...."I was not looking for a possible partner.....to rescue". I did not want that to be the basis for someones attraction to "me". I decided I wanted to find someone who had similar interests, was financially stable (not desperate).....and within a reasonable age difference. I just watched "Love Me" on Netflix tonite. A Foreign Affair (1 1/2 hour) documentary. To watch the clueless guys.....made me cringe. The guy from San Francisco has a shot at longterm success....IMHO. The guy from Texas.....maybe. Some of the other guys would miss red flags.....if they were nailed to their forehead......with a ten penny nail!!!


1) Don't go to the FSU to "rescue" a possible life partner. After getting here.....they may want to find someone to rescue them.......from you. I am not saying you cannot find
    someone......where things are very "tough". I am saying that these places would be better hunting grounds for guys who do not lack active dating lives......and can actually
    see and accept red flags (see "Love Me......for guys who don't have that attribute).


2) Accept that the real reason success stories are are scarcer than they should be......is that only a very small guys ever get on the plane (in other words...."TRY"). You won't
     have success......if you never start. The more guys that "start".......the more success stories you will here about (and failures to.....but that is part of "any" game).


3) Only listen to "newer.....younger guys here"........who offer lots of advice........but never get-off the ground. Us "old guys" are no longer relevant....because we did it "back
     in the dark ages". Geezer advice is no longer relevant......things have changed. Ten years ago some board members said "yes you have been married for two years.....but
      where are those folks who have been married for 10 or more years (alluding to significant longevity). Last year a guy here said "yes you have been (successfully) for 11
      years.......but I am now out of touch.......my advice is from a long time ago. I did not relish being 40 and restarting my dating life after divorce. Because I actually
      "learned something" from my divorce......my dating life was full (here in the US).....and virtually devoid of psychos, scammers, baggage enthusiast....etc. Lots of nice
      women.....just did't meet........."the one". If I had to be thrown back into the dating market "today"........I would do just fine.


4) Skype, phone........and yes......do something different. Actually "write" a few letters.....to stand out from the crowd. If there are excuses for not being in regular contact.......
     move-on........she is not as interested in you.....as you are......in her. Attraction "must" be mutual......and at similar intensity.


5) If you visit......visit her in her own town. You will see how her family, friends & co-workers........regard her. Save a vacation for a second trip when and if......you hit-it off.
     This way you avoid those seeking........."a free vacation".


6) Read, accept & understand the 10 commandments (of FSU dating). They apply to "all" in this endeaver. There are always exceptions....but they are rare.


7) If you are worried and afraid.......of most things........stay home. Take that money for your first trip ($5,000 minimum) and spend it visiting women here in the states.
     Besides........your will more than likely spend $10,000........$20,000......$30,000......and more on your FSU quest. But for the right person.....the reward can be great. As
     for myself......I have a great wife.......nice relatives.....and a second country I am at home in (russia). My experience was a blast....the highs.......and the lows.

The odds are really up to you. Your willingness to learn......or not learn. Visit.....or not visit. See.....and accept red flags.......or not see. The ability to cut your losses.....if the time comes.




Capt B

The Love Me show was an amazing insight into the other side of this process.  Most of those guys were doomed to failure from the start.  They were mostly out of their league, out of their comfort zone, relying on someone to do the work for them, expecting to buy a bride, thinking they were the saviors of poor ignorant women and totally unaware of how to read the interest of the ladies they were meeting.  I have a better chemistry with women I see in grocery store checkout lines than these guys do with their "dates".

The Aussie was a shining example of a man hell bent on being "scammed".  I really don't think he was scammed, but it fits the general definition.  In my opinion he assumed he was buying a woman who somehow owed him, and got what he deserved.  Seller can't sell without buyers and scammers can't scam without willing marks.  All cons work on greed or lust.  Leave the lust at home and the money will go back home with you.

Anyone with Netflix please watch and comment on Love Me and maybe we can get a thread going on it.  There are lots of real world experienced guys here and I would love to hear from them.  I also would love the input of the women who have been involved or know of the dating world to comment on that show.  In fact, I am going to copy and paste this into a thread.  Hopefully I will hear from some vets.

[jone]

Hehehe.  I'm not really that arrogant.  I was just wondering what type of reaction I would get.

[2tallbill]

I was just ruminating on your thoughts, Bill.

Elena Petrova, god bless her soul, writes to her FSU women to expand their horizons and give them reason to interact.  But Bill, I will tell you, and you know this to be true:  Very few men who travel to Eastern Europe have trouble communicating with a woman.  Especially yourself.

Many of us here at the forum are fairly good at communicating with women, but I met a
guy on the plane to Dnepropetrovsk who brought a wedding ring with him for a girl that
he never met and was totally out of his league.

I've sat in the airport in Kiev and seen a guy in love and completely oblivious that the
girl who was  with him had the most bored look on her face I've ever seen. 

I always wanted to make sure that I didn't end up being that guy.

I've taken off hitch hiking got stuck in Seattle Washington so I bought a car for three
hundred dollars and drove it all the way to Anchorage. When I arrived I had no money,
no job and no prospects so the next day I got a job in construction carrying sheet rock
up a ladder all day.

I agree for some of us going to Russia to meet a woman barely qualifies as an adventure 
but for others they are lucky to escape without having their organs harvested.

There was a guy once who frequented the forums who arrived at the airport without
knowing that he needed a passport. I think his moniker was squirrel. He had no chance,
and never was going to have a chance.

[Bee Farmer]

Those of us seeking an FSU match are a rather unique set of individuals.  We are, by nature, the extroverts.  A great percentage of us are entrepreneurs.

When I was in Odessa, my interpreter and her friend (another interpreter) would often have dinner or lunch with the guys they were working with.

I am an introvert (INTJ) and entrepreneurial with a couple small businesses.
Another guy was an emergency room doctor from Chicago - he was an introvert.
The 3rd guy was an extrovert - he was a laborer in the Canada oil sands.

BOTH of the other guys had been to Ukraine multiple times looking for women.  Not just in Odessa either.  Both were acting like a kid in a candy store about girls they met.  They could never decide on a girl they liked, they kept thinking the next girl they met would be better.

I would suspect that more guys are introverts than extroverts who go looking for FSUW.  The extroverts find it easier to go up to a stranger and strike up a conversation with local girls.  I suspect the introverts go looking abroad because their introversion or shyness may be overlooked by a foreign girl.

Being willing to go overseas has nothing to do with introversion or extroversion.  Being extroverted simply means that you gain energy by being around other people.  With introverts, it drains them to deal with large groups of people and social situations.

[ML]

If you do these things she will see what a competent, attentive and interesting husband
you would be. Any girl would love to have a husband take so much interest in her and her
future. Maybe she will even grow fond of your balding head someday

Bill you sound like a great catch.

If things don't work out with your new wife . . . please contact me about a bromance.

[ML]

With only 5% who actually get on a plane that puts the vast majority of men squarely
in the loser category.

Is it possible that you and others have this 'a$$ backwards?'

Perhaps the 5% that get on the planes are the losers . . . and the remaining 95% were just to smart to go down this path.

[2tallbill]

Is it possible that you and others have this 'a$$ backwards?'

Perhaps the 5% that get on the planes are the losers . . . and the remaining 95% were just too smart to go down this path.

It depends on what your goals for success are. A married man might define success as
chatting with 20 year old hotties without getting caught by his wife. I know of two guys
who started profiles and wrote a few girls then gave it up. I knew all along that they
would sit around and listen to my stories but never get on a plane.

[Noch1]

I have learned on these forums, according to many of the older bunch.
10 years, of course if you have been married 15 years, then success is 15 years
20 years and so on.

Best I can tell life don't come with a guarantee. If you manage to find
the women for you, get married and she comes to country and don't leave your
ass, as soon as she can stay and get a large part of your money, then you likely succeeded Define success in your own terms, its your life.

Marriage and life can be difficult regardless of how, where or who you marry.
People evolve and change, try and grow together, build a life together.
enjoy it while its good and you are alive, nobody knows what tomorrow brings.

[Anotherkiwi]

I agree for some of us going to Russia to meet a woman barely qualifies as an adventure  but for others they are lucky to escape without having their organs harvested.

Such a terrifying picture you paint! 

There was a guy once who frequented the forums who arrived at the airport without knowing that he needed a passport.

Did he think that "overseas" was everything east of the Mississippi?

I think his moniker was squirrel. He had no chance, and never was going to have a chance.

Sounds like he had the brains to match his name.  One advantage of living in a country at the end of the world is that we know that we need a passport to go anywhere that's more than a two-hour flight.

[2tallbill]

Rookie talking here, but I think some guys don't do enough due diligence.  They fall for the a pretty photo and just simply don't use common sense. 

We get a variety of guys here at the forums that will have no chance at success.
They will repeatedly do things that will kill any chances they may luck into.
Here are some of the most common examples.

1. They see scams everywhere: They find a girl who has a different mailing
address than her physical address or worse that she has photos with different hair
colors and are sure using their mad sluething skills have found a scammer.
 
2. Make stupid demands: Expect an FSUW to submit to stupid tests for scam
avoidance. The easiest way to find out an FSUW isn't a scammer is accusing her of
being one and getting dumped. 

3. Afraid of one's own shadow. Asks questions about the best bullet proof vest
for international travel and makes inquires about best butt plug to prevent @ss rapes.

4. Being unbelievably gullible and naive. There was a guy who was locked in his
apartment for New Years for his safety while his girl took off for 12+ hours (supposedly
called in to work) was taxi scammed for $300 and he was sure that she was head
over heels in love with him.

5. Being astonishingly cheap. True story, a guy dumped a girl as an obvious
scammer after being presented a dinner tab ran up to the grand total of $12.00 

6. Using carbon dating methods for reaction times. Having a 12 year plan to land
a girl. Expecting a girl to exchange letters for a year without getting on a plane and
such nonsense.

7. Seriously under-capitalized: Having no time off and no money for the pursuit
and or no ability to provide for the girl.

8. Unreasonable expectations: Expects Sports Illustrated swimsuit models to be
impressed with his beer gut, blue passport and roll of quarters. There were a number
of middle aged men who expected to find virgins who swallow (just kidding about the
swallow part but not the virgin part)

9. Control Freaks: Expects girls to switch religions, become instant Stepford
wives, and subservient after receiving their first letter and various other control freak
fantasies. 

10. Have no social skills, dating experience, manners or social awareness: Kind of
self explanatory.

11. Having mental disorders from mild to wild: 

12. Thinking that finding an FSUW will be the solution to all of their existing life's
problems. 

I am sure that others here could list a few more things that would virtually eliminate
any chances of success.

I was a guy who got bitten by the FSUW bug and was too stubborn to give up.   

[Miquel Westano]

We get a variety of guys here at the forums that will have no chance at success.
They will repeatedly do things that will kill any chances they may luck into.
Here are some of the most common examples.


                                         snipped some for space

I am sure that others here could list a few more things that would virtually eliminate
any chances of success.

I was a guy who got bitten by the FSUW bug and was too stubborn to give up.

That's what I meant in another post.  The whole issue is so complicated.  There are always two sides.  This is why I admire the guys on here who saw the whole process through or are still hunting but committed to making it work from both ends. 

A lot of those guys you mentioned are completely convinced the women are totally at fault and likely scammers.  The most important thing stressed on this forum is, if you can't impress a woman in your home country, you are not going to be a Romeo in a country you know nothing about.

The pics and stories on here tell me the victory is well worth the fight.  But some guys just have no business in the game to start with.

Several post have suggested a guy with no dating skills start with local girls and develop some level of game.  I think that makes perfect sense.

[Boethius]

Remember that in a little more than half the stories told here, the couples are now divorced.  Most don't come back to post, though there are a few exceptions.

[jone]

Bill,

I knew of a guy who dumped the gal because she had two phones.  He thought one was for personal and one was for the guys she was scamming.  That is something an American gal would do, so I could see how he was confused.  In reality most of the women I met in UA had two sim cards.  One for LIFE, which is a very common but expensive phone service, and one for one of the less expensive phone services.

Often times both sim cards can be put into a single phone as they sell phones with two sim card bays just to accommodate the multiple service user.   But this guy saw that she had two phones and only gave him one number and was instantly suspicious.

[jone]

Remember that in a little more than half the stories told here, the couples are now divorced.  Most don't come back to post, though there are a few exceptions.

Most of the men going to the FSU were married before.  What makes them think that they will succeed the second (or third or fourth) time at marriage when they failed the first time? 

Time to look in a mirror.  I know I did.

[Boethius]

What makes them think that they will succeed the second (or third or fourth) time at marriage when they failed the first time?

They are not marrying a WW.


The number of misogynistic posts I have read is scandalous.  I can generally tell, based on those posts, if a marriage is going to pan out.  I haven't been wrong yet.  I would bet some of the FSUW now in the West, or who also participate on Russian language forums, would say the same thing.

[jone]

There was a guy once who frequented the forums who arrived at the airport without
knowing that he needed a passport. I think his moniker was squirrel. He had no chance,
and never was going to have a chance.

Even a blind squirrel .....

[Boethius]

There was a guy who was locked in his
apartment for New Years for his safety while his girl took off for 12+ hours (supposedly called in to work) was taxi scammed for $300 and he was sure that she was head over heels in love with him.

Aren't they engaged now?  She may already be in the U.S.

[Larry1]

Quote from: 2tallbill on Today at 07:53:39 AM
There was a guy who was locked in his
apartment for New Years for his safety while his girl took off for 12+ hours (supposedly called in to work) was taxi scammed for $300 and he was sure that she was head over heels in love with him.

Aren't they engaged now?  She may already be in the U.S.

No, they drifted apart again.

I think the taxi arranged by the girl cost him $400.

[Hammer2722]

Quote from: 2tallbill on Today at 07:53:39 AM
There was a guy who was locked in his
apartment for New Years for his safety while his girl took off for 12+ hours (supposedly called in to work) was taxi scammed for $300 and he was sure that she was head over heels in love with him.

No, they drifted apart again.

I think the taxi arranged by the girl cost him $400.

Yes, I and I believe he is looking again and may be corresponding with another lady. May have already met her too.

[Faux Pas]

We get a variety of guys here at the forums that will have no chance at success.
They will repeatedly do things that will kill any chances they may luck into.
Here are some of the most common examples.

1. They see scams everywhere: They find a girl who has a different mailing
address than her physical address or worse that she has photos with different hair
colors and are sure using their mad sluething skills have found a scammer.
 
2. Make stupid demands: Expect an FSUW to submit to stupid tests for scam
avoidance. The easiest way to find out an FSUW isn't a scammer is accusing her of
being one and getting dumped. 

3. Afraid of one's own shadow. Asks questions about the best bullet proof vest
for international travel and makes inquires about best butt plug to prevent @ss rapes.

4. Being unbelievably gullible and naive. There was a guy who was locked in his
apartment for New Years for his safety while his girl took off for 12+ hours (supposedly
called in to work) was taxi scammed for $300 and he was sure that she was head
over heels in love with him.

5. Being astonishingly cheap. True story, a guy dumped a girl as an obvious
scammer after being presented a dinner tab ran up to the grand total of $12.00 

6. Using carbon dating methods for reaction times. Having a 12 year plan to land
a girl. Expecting a girl to exchange letters for a year without getting on a plane and
such nonsense.

7. Seriously under-capitalized: Having no time off and no money for the pursuit
and or no ability to provide for the girl.

8. Unreasonable expectations:Expects Sports Illustrated swimsuit models to be
impressed with his beer gut, blue passport and roll of quarters. There were a number
of middle aged men who expected to find virgins who swallow (just kidding about the
swallow part but not the virgin part)

9. Control Freaks: Expects girls to switch religions, become instant Stepford
wives, and subservient after receiving their first letter and various other control freak
fantasies. 

10. Have no social skills, dating experience, manners or social awareness: Kind of
self explanatory.

11. Having mental disorders from mild to wild: 

12. Thinking that finding an FSUW will be the solution to all of their existing life's
problems. 

Sad but true. #8 was also funny and true

[Steamer]

Most of the men going to the FSU were married before.  What makes them think that they will succeed the second (or third or fourth) time at marriage when they failed the first time? 

Time to look in a mirror.  I know I did.

My wife was more concerned about a guy that was 40 or 50 yo and had never been married. If you're divorced, even if 2 or 3 times, it shows that some woman out there thought that you had enough potential to marry in the first place.

[2tallbill]

No, they drifted apart again.

I think the taxi arranged by the girl cost him $400.

Your memory is probably better than mine. I've seen others nearly as blind
to the truth staring them in the face.

There was a Youtube video about a guy who had a full Star Trek uniform along
with a communicator and phaser who went on a one week wonder trip. He actually
filed a K-1, married the girl and killed himself when it later went downhill. I looked
for the Youtube video but couldn't find it.

He filmed himself doing different weird stuff.

[Boethius]

My wife was more concerned about a guy that was 40 or 50 yo and had never been married. If you're divorced, even if 2 or 3 times, it shows that some woman out there thought that you had enough potential to marry in the first place.

I believe jone's point was that without painful self analysis,  past behaviour will predict future behaviour (and results).

[2tallbill]

The odds of finding a girl and living happily ever after are unknown.

For some the odds are impossible and they should probably give up
on the idea, join a religion that has arranged marriages, volunteer
at the school for the blind or, try some other radical idea and stay
away from the FSU girls.

However, if you are fairly reasonable, relatively normal and don't pee on
your shoes when you see a beautiful girl and you are willing to invest the
time, money, energy and perseverance necessary then your odds at
success aren't so bad as long as you can dust yourself off and start over
again if/when you fail.   

I was as guilty as anyone of making mistakes. I didn't listen to the voice in my
head that told me to hit pull the eject handle. I pursued girls at the pay per view
(pay to chat/letter) agencies, I chased girls who were too young, but I kept
learning and revising my plan and tactics always looking to improve.

The guys who find the girl of their dreams on the first trip are very, very lucky.
They can break out a spreadsheet or try to explain their color coded system of
finding the perfect girl, but they have no clue to how much luck played into it.
They don't have any clue to the difficulty of pulling the plug (or having it pulled
for you) then starting all over again, especially in a foreign country, alone and
far from home.

Udachi!


Bill