The Struggle For Ukraine

[Bee Farmer]

Poland wouldn't do anything without the US approval.  The US even threw in some F-16's if Poland would give Ukraine their Migs.  Not a bad enticement for Poland to arm Ukraine.  The US was in favor of this up until Poland offered to hand over the Migs to the US base in Germany so they could give them to Ukraine .  All of a sudden it wasn't a good idea and the US rejected that plan.  I'm having a hard time seeing this any other way to be honest.

The US did NOT throw in some F-16's if Poland would give their Migs to Ukraine.  That is a lie. 

NATO had a meeting.  They talked about what weaponry Ukraine needed, and the individual member states made a list of what weaponry they had which they would be willing to let Ukraine have.

Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia all had Mig-29 Fulcrums they would be willing to send to Ukraine.

Then they started backpedaling. 
Hungary just went silent on the issue. 
Slovakia said they would be willing to give their Migs to Ukraine, if they could finalize the details on an agreement for Poland to provide air defense of Slovakia.
Poland said they would give their Migs to Ukraine, but it would deplete their air force, and wanted to know if the US would sell it F-16's to replace the Migs.

The US started scrambling to see if this was possible.  The F-16's that Poland already has are older models, and do not have all the updated electronics of the new F-16's.  The US had to decide if they would be willing to let Poland have F-16's with newer avionics, or if they would have to remove the newer electronics and replace them with the older versions, and how long it would take to get the older electronics and installed.  (I never heard the final decision, if Poland would get newer avionics, or older.)  The US finally decided they could sell Poland F-16's to replace the Migs.

As they were finalizing the details of the transfer, Biden said no.

There was no US throwing in F-16's to sweeten the pot to convince Poland to give Ukraine their old Migs.  That was something Poland requested after they said they were willing to give their Migs to Ukraine.  Even then, the US was reluctant to agree to it, until it could be decided which avionics package we could supply Poland with.

Slovakia and Hungary were originally both open to giving their Migs to Ukraine.  I'm sure they would have loved to get F-16's if the US was offering F-16's to make the deal.  I have never heard a single report that Slovakia or Hungary ever asked for F-16's, or were offered F-16's.

I don't know why you think Poland needs the US's permission to do anything.  This was originally a NATO meeting of member states where Poland offered their Migs to Ukraine.  This was not originally a Poland/US discussion about the Migs.  The US only became a party to the transaction when Poland asked if the US could replace the Migs with US F-16's.

[LiveFromUkraine]

The US did NOT throw in some F-16's if Poland would give their Migs to Ukraine.  That is a lie. 

I appreciate you setting me straight.  No need to accuse people of lying. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Yet the only realistic danger to Russia is them being confined to their existing borders.
Should he be.heard? Sure
Where his demands reasonable?  no.

This harping of his on Ukraine being  eu nato ,is more about russia losing the that sphere of influence .
Nato countries latvia , Estonia ,are already on his border for decades and just as reasonably close to st pete/ Moscow. Notvto.mention kaliningrad surrounded by nato and coexisting  fine.
They do not have nuclear missles .
Its unnecessary in thier position and modern times.

 I think this is about control of ukraine
( he is pissed its not his puppet) ,the black sea , influence in Europe.
Are those legit Russian concerns?
Sure, but
Only if we negate ukraine being sovereign ,and having the right to
lean towards EU as most eastern European countries have done.

They gave up nukes  in a big way for this possibility of continued  sovereignty.

I'd be (and am) bitter at all parties involved.
None of this would be going on if  the parties had honored the agreement.
Or if Ukraine kept the nukes.
They are the only party that kept thier part of the  agreement,one that was already  lopsided  in the favor of the other signatories.

I don't know, man, hearing talks about missile defense systems being put near your border isn't something any country would feel comfortable with.  We should have tried to deescalated the situation instead of constantly poking the bear.  Ukraine definitely should have kept their nukes.  I hope other countries realize they need to put themselves first and not rely on someone else coming to their aid.  Like I said, this has been ongoing for a long time and now we see people losing their lives over what I believe could have been prevented through diplomacy.


In an ideal world, Ukraine should be able to determine their destiny.  I don't see that as reality unless you have the ability to deter thugs like Putin.  I definitely pray for Ukraine and hope for the best.  I just keep replaying, in my head, how we might have been able to avoid all of this.

[fathertime]

As someone posted here before:

During Vietnam, Russia provided planes and even pilots to North Vietnam to attack U.S. forces.  We didn't threaten Russia with a nuclear attack and did not conduct a nuclear attack on Russia.

Straight analogy to the current situation of Poland or Poland and U.S. providing planes to heroic Ukrainians.

It is a decent comparison for a person to make but the reason I don't think it applies directly is the US probably never felt it was backed against a wall.   In this situation Russia will feel that they are.  It appears Russia will throw everything they have into this war with their neighbor.   Vietnam was an obscure country across the globe from the US.   

Fathertime! 

[Admin]

I don't know, man, hearing talks about missile defense systems being put near your border isn't something any country would feel comfortable with.  We should have tried to deescalated the situation instead of constantly poking the bear.  Ukraine definitely should have kept their nukes.  I hope other countries realize they need to put themselves first and not rely on someone else coming to their aid.  Like I said, this has been ongoing for a long time and now we see people losing their lives over what I believe could have been prevented through diplomacy.


In an ideal world, Ukraine should be able to determine their destiny.  I don't see that as reality unless you have the ability to deter thugs like Putin.  I definitely pray for Ukraine and hope for the best.  I just keep replaying, in my head, how we might have been able to avoid all of this.

Should have, would have, could have, might have .... none of it is useful. Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy directly addresses this line of thinking. More and more it looks like these sorts of analyses are the result of (and contribute to) wide-spread social anxiety. It is not helpful in addressing the here and now with a cold-eyed assessment.

[Admin]

The US did NOT throw in some F-16's if Poland would give their Migs to Ukraine.  That is a lie. 

NATO had a meeting.  They talked about what weaponry Ukraine needed, and the individual member states made a list of what weaponry they had which they would be willing to let Ukraine have.

Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia all had Mig-29 Fulcrums they would be willing to send to Ukraine.

Then they started backpedaling. 
Hungary just went silent on the issue. 
Slovakia said they would be willing to give their Migs to Ukraine, if they could finalize the details on an agreement for Poland to provide air defense of Slovakia.
Poland said they would give their Migs to Ukraine, but it would deplete their air force, and wanted to know if the US would sell it F-16's to replace the Migs.

The US started scrambling to see if this was possible.  The F-16's that Poland already has are older models, and do not have all the updated electronics of the new F-16's.  The US had to decide if they would be willing to let Poland have F-16's with newer avionics, or if they would have to remove the newer electronics and replace them with the older versions, and how long it would take to get the older electronics and installed.  (I never heard the final decision, if Poland would get newer avionics, or older.)  The US finally decided they could sell Poland F-16's to replace the Migs.

As they were finalizing the details of the transfer, Biden said no.

There was no US throwing in F-16's to sweeten the pot to convince Poland to give Ukraine their old Migs.  That was something Poland requested after they said they were willing to give their Migs to Ukraine.  Even then, the US was reluctant to agree to it, until it could be decided which avionics package we could supply Poland with.

Slovakia and Hungary were originally both open to giving their Migs to Ukraine.  I'm sure they would have loved to get F-16's if the US was offering F-16's to make the deal.  I have never heard a single report that Slovakia or Hungary ever asked for F-16's, or were offered F-16's.

I don't know why you think Poland needs the US's permission to do anything.  This was originally a NATO meeting of member states where Poland offered their Migs to Ukraine.  This was not originally a Poland/US discussion about the Migs.  The US only became a party to the transaction when Poland asked if the US could replace the Migs with US F-16's.

Many countries are rushing to provide assistance to Ukraine. In that vein many options are presented and discussed. Deeper analysis parses out some options in favor of better ones. Looking at the transfer of some 25 - 30 MiG29s which were initially commissioned for East Germany when it was still a vassal of the Soviet Union, there were modernization issues to be considered as well as compatibility issues to be sure Ukrainian pilots could fly them, but also so that NATO countries would not misidentify them as enemy.


The question of how effective those fighter/attack aircraft might be in suppression of the current Russian attacks became a major consideration. Russian missile attacks are being launched from Russian aircraft flying in Russian airspace. Ukraine's ability to engage Russian aircraft in Russian airspace is not realistic given Russia's superior air defenses. Notably, a No-Fly Zone over Ukraine would suffer the same limitation as missiles fired from Russian airspace would not be suppressed by a No-Fly Zone over Ukraine. Ukraine reportedly still has more than half of it's fighter/attack aircraft fleet operational. NATO/EU assessment is that Ukraine airspace is at parity even yet. In other words, Ukraine is not yet running short of aircraft to fly sorties. Ukraine already must employ numerous tactics to be able to take to the skies to avoid Russian anti-air systems. Additional aircraft will have little, if any, impact in Ukrainian skies right now. Advanced anti-air systems, however, will be immediately impactful.

[Boethius]

Hi Bo! 

Nice to "see" you.

I was trying to respond and got timed out. lol

"My point is, most disinformation isn't particularly sophisticated, and can be recognized."

I used to think that until the past 4 years.  People looked like they lost their minds.  People that I thought were intelligent and reasonable.  After some time I saw how the media, along with politicians, were all saying the same thing.  Even the wording was the same.

If you watch this over and over again you will begin to think the same way.  We are assigned our views by what we watch.  I don't believe anyone is immune to this type of programming.  It's just part of how we are wired to get through day by day.  Robert Cialdini wrote some awesome books, on persuasion, talking about this type of stuff

Sorry, I'm not sure what your point about the Ukrainian constitution was.  Is a country a country because of a constitution or whether they can defend their country when attacked?  I wish we were above all of this violence, but maybe it will never happen.

Hmmm.  I don't watch television news.  I read a number of online newspapers (I go directly to their sites), across the spectrum.  Relatively few are American, though.

That brings me to the next point about why I brought up Biden and our politicians.  Our funding to other countries tend to make it's way back to our politicians.  Either through family members or other means.

But Hunter Biden had no role in shielding Burisma's founder from prosecution.

I don't think it is irrelevant since we are talking about the same people being in charge as when Ukraine went into civil war.  Those military contractors end up hiring our retired generals.  America is corrupt.  Our system makes it that way and really needs to change.  I doubt our elites are doing this to help if there wasn't some kind of incentive for them.  Either monetarily or staying in power.

I would not call 2014 a civil war.  If you are referring to driving Yanukovych from power, those were protests, and they were peaceful until Yanukovych ordered police to shoot protestors.  That is why he had to flee the country.  Had he not turned to violence, he probably would have stayed in power.  America had nothing to do with the protests in 2014.  They were entirely homegrown.

The really weird thing is I saw a clip on Twitter of Alex Jones saying last year there was going to be a major war in February of this year.  Still trying to wrap my head around that one.  haha

Even a stopped watch is right twice a day.  Or, maybe he is compromised.  Zhirinovsky talked about the invasion of Ukraine two years ago, with details that proved true.

No, the bio labs doesn't necessarily mean nefarious or bio weapons.  It also doesn't mean it is being conducted for the benefit of human kind.  Why would any country want to be next to that type of lab after Covid killed millions of people. Of course, when people stated Covid came from a lab they were labeled disinformation.

Every country with an educated population has bio labs that examine disease and the prevention thereof.  In Canada, there are two run by the federal government, and probably many others within university environments.   Without these labs, we would not have vaccines.  Russia, unlike Ukraine, has actual bioweapon labs.

I wonder how the USA would handle Russia conducting "research" in Mexico. I know we didn't like missiles in Cuba even though Cuba should be able to decide for themselves.  I don't think it's a stretch to say we should think of others if we want peace.  Even brutal dictators like Putin need to be considered.

It wasn't the US conducting "research".  It was Ukrainian scientists, who shared that information, likely with scientists across the world.  One of the Canadian labs had a scandal, as two of the Chinese national scientists turned out to be Chinese spies.  But the lab wasn't doing bioweapons research.  It was more about technology transfer.  So, I dismiss this point.  Anything that advances humanity should be viewed as such, no matter from where it emanates.  krimster had a post about why the US helped set up a lab in Ukraine. 

Poland just outmaneuvered the US.  The US tried to push Poland into giving Ukraine MIGS.  Poland said they would drop them off at the US base in Germany and they could give the planes to Ukraine.  The US decided it was a bad idea after that.  Why would the US be ok with Poland doing it but then not do it themselves? 

I'm not following the point here.

[Boethius]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the nazis stuff.  Are they talking about that Azov group or are they saying Ukraine government?  Also, I've been reading a lot of things about how citizens in the Donbas region having been tortured.  Is this true or propaganda?  Hard to tell, but I do hope it's just propaganda.

The Russians are saying the country is overrun by nazis.  Which is untrue, and frankly, absurd.


There is a far right element in Ukraine, but it holds no power.  Even the Azov Batallion has only about 20% neo nazis. 


There are neo nazis among Russians (such as, is noted here, the Wagner group, whose very name comes from Nazi favoured composer Richard Wagner).  There is a far right party with members in the Bundestag in Germany.  Heck, there are far right members I'd consider nazis sitting in your Congress.  So this is just part of a smearing campaign and a justification to seize real estate. 

[Boethius]

Wiki says Kyiv OR Kiev.


I prefer Kiev and anyway it's still called Chicken Kiev in the Supermarket here.

Kiev is a Russian spelling and Russian pronunciation.  I had a link with the two pronunciations downloaded here for our beloved Sandro. 


Anyway, if you want to know why this is important, read the link.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cbc-pronunciation-kyiv-ukraine-crisis-explainer-1.6371766#:~:text=The%20transliteration%20%22Kyiv%22%20was%20legally,name%20of%20its%20capital%20city.

[Boethius]

There are live videos from drones of Russians taking civilians as hostages? Haven't seen that. Can you explain to me how it makes sense for the Russian military to take 400 civilians as hostages?

No, there are drones from windows of the hospital showing Russian soldiers inside.

It doesn't make sense to kill an unarmed civilian with his hands held up above his head, but there's drone footage of Russians shooting such a civilian about a week ago.

It doesn't make sense for Russians to destroy apartment buildings, schools, bakeries with workers inside, or shoot people lining up to buy bread, but they've done all of those things in Ukraine.  They did that in Syria, a Putin planned operation bombed a Moscow apartment building to create the impetus for the second Chechen war, and they levelled Grozny, so this is par for the course for the Russian military.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/16/early-signs-war-crimes-and-human-rights-abuses-committed-russian-military-during

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/16/for-syrian-survivors-russias-tactics-in-ukraine-eerily-similar

As I said it is impossible to obtain the truth in the fog of war. Neither side have clean skins. The western narrative is clearly tangental. Multiple perspectives need to be considered.

No, you are wrong.  When you INVADE a sovereign nation, and meet resistance immediately, your perspective is irrelevant. 

The Ukrainian government has been firing on its citizens for the past eight years. Why do you think they will stop now? Particularly when captured "Ukronazis" will be summarily executed by Russian soldiers.

Ukraine has responded to banditry on its territory from the criminals of the so called "independent regions".  Ask people who escaped there how easy it is to live under that criminal rule.

Tell me, why would the Russian government want to drop a cluster bomb on Donetsk? You're a smart cookie. I'm sure you can either find a logical explanation or realize it was the Ukrainian military?

Why did they want to drop cluster bombs on Syria?  Human Rights Watch, which is a neutral observer, documented 47 different cluster bomb attacks on civilian targets by Russian forces in Syria in 2016.  The Russians, of course, denied it, but they were proven with remnants and fragmentations. 

I would ask you, what would Ukraine gain by bombing people who support them?  Civilians are going to know who dropped a bomb, and they know the direction from which missiles originate.

There are no 'good guys' in this conflict and the Ukrainian leadership has demonstrated a disregard for civilian life. That may not extend to all officials (obviously) but it is intellectually dishonest to ignore the behaviors of the Ukrainian military/SBU, etc.

No it isn't.  You have zero proof Ukraine is targeting its own civilians.  The proof I have is witness accounts and drone footage.  When you have evidence the Ukrainian army is killing civilians discriminately, then I will believe it.  They're not even shooting looters.  Rather, looters are tied to posts, pants around their ankles, and a potato in their mouths for 24 hours.

[Boethius]

I presume you live a sheltered existence. Every large government would fire on its own civilians. Nothing new in the USA - look up the Bonus Army. The government fired on veterans! Lots of historical examples in Europe. Even more recently look at the treatment of people in Canada and Australia - supposedly "democratic" countries. Not to mention Maidan snipers... or those in Donbass...

The Maidan snipers were backed by the Russian government, ordered to kill by a president who was deposed for that very reason.


Donbas was a war created by Russia's GRU.


The Canadian government has not recently fired on protestors.  We are not living in the 19th century or WWII.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Should have, would have, could have, might have .... none of it is useful. Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy directly addresses this line of thinking. More and more it looks like these sorts of analyses are the result of (and contribute to) wide-spread social anxiety. It is not helpful in addressing the here and now with a cold-eyed assessment.

Disagree.  If you don't know what led up to this then it's almost impossible to find a solution to end it.  Unless you're a war hawk that thinks sanctions and sending military arms is all that needs to be done.  It will just get more people killed and this war will continue indefinitely.  Just like it's happened in other countries.  Of course this is different!


What the sanctions have shown is don't trust the US dollar.  And when that stops being the world currency, we are in for a world of hurting.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Appreciate the reply Bo.  I do imagine you have much better sources than I do so maybe it's a lot easier for you to figure out what is disinformation and what isn't.    The nazis thing caught me off guard.   We are so politically divided here at home that people will make exaggerations to prove the other side wrong.  It's difficult to figure out where the truth is at times.  I never came across any nazis when I lived in Ukraine.  Never heard of them.  Then again, we overblow the amount of white supremacist's here, imo.  It's a term that has been over used to the point it holds no meaning.

[Jumper1]

I hear the demise of the dollar fir decades.

I've yet to hear when it fails,what currency the bulk of the world would trust

[LiveFromUkraine]

I hear the demise of the dollar fir decades.

I've yet to hear when it fails,what currency the bulk of the world would trust

True, but technology like crypto has entered the room.  The US looks to be already working on it's own digital currency. 

[Grumpy]

Forget the nonsense about bio-labs. I live about 40 miles from a U.S. government bio-lab. Farmers are very grateful for the work they do researching livestock diseases and finding cures.  Other bio-labs are working every day testing possible cures for cancer and other diseases.

Slava Ukraini! (Glory to Ukraine!)

Heroyam Slava (Glory to Heroes!)

[Admin]

1. Disagree.  If you don't know what led up to this then it's almost impossible to find a solution to end it.

2. Unless you're a war hawk that thinks sanctions and sending military arms is all that needs to be done. 

3. It will just get more people killed and this war will continue indefinitely. 

4. Just like it's happened in other countries.  Of course this is different!

5. What the sanctions have shown is don't trust the US dollar. 


6. And when that stops being the world currency, we are in for a world of hurting.

1. Ruminating over what might have been is a waste of time in determining what must be done NOW to end an unprovoked incursion into a sovereign nation destroying lives of millions.

2. Nope, neither.

3. A bit of that social anxiety displayed.

4. Whatever happened in other countries is irrelevant to this specific situation.

5. Sanctions clearly are having an effect on Russia and will have much more effect as time goes by. Notably, Russia suffers from sanctions instituted by other countries in other currencies.

6. More of that social anxiety.

[ML]

Wife read on her info sites about a woman in Ukraine who sent messages to military saying she wanted to join.
She told she had previously served in military and had certificates of her marksmanship, etc.

When asked about her age and what military she had served in, she replied.

I am 98 and served in WWII.

[Bee Farmer]

I hear the demise of the dollar fir decades.

I've yet to hear when it fails,what currency the bulk of the world would trust

Why should the world trust ANY currency?  Every single currency that has been previously issued ended up being worthless.

You are better off to trust money.  (Currency is not money. It is a substitute for money.)

Maybe the world would go back to using gold and silver coins. (or digital accounts fractionating gold and silver coins.)

[Boethius]

A Russian reporter.

http://mobile.twitter.com/ichbinilya/status/1504619176354320384

[tfcrew]

Ukraine’s ‘southern capital’ pleads for help to withstand Putin’s next onslaught
By  Josh Rogin
Today at 5:42 p.m. EDT

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s war on Ukraine is coming soon to the country’s third-largest city, Odessa, often called Ukraine’s “southern capital.” The people of the city are in desperate need of weapons and humanitarian aid to survive the coming onslaught. So far, though, the international community isn’t focused enough on this crucial battle — and the window of opportunity is closing.   
Odessa’s mayor, Gennadiy Trukhanov, told me during an interview that he doesn’t know exactly when Russian forces will attack, but ominous signs are everywhere. Russian warships are probing the Black Sea beaches and shelling parts of the coastline, indications an amphibious invasion force might soon be on the way. Ukrainians have tried to mine the beaches, but there aren’t enough mines to go around.   Military units are positioned to resist any landing, but Ukrainian forces don’t have enough antiship weapons, such as Harpoon missiles, to keep the Russian fleet at bay.“Our concern is that the city could be surrounded,” said Trukhanov, a former Soviet military officer now leading a city of almost 1 million people preparing to fight. “This is exactly the scenario we are expecting from the enemy.”

READ MORE-------
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/17/odessa-putin-next-target-needs-help/

[BillyB]

So much nonsense.


The emboldened statement in blue indicate clear bias. That bias undergirds everything else.

The use of "probably" and "if" are indicative of hypotheticals. Those hypotheticals are then drawn out as conclusory, but their underlying basis is NOT supported with facts. Joe Friday would be appalled.


Once again, the arrogance displayed in a post like this TRUMPets the message; "I know the truth and you do not!" It's ludicrous. The danger of these posts is there are small snippets of truth in them, so a casual reader might not bother to pick up on the fact that Russia was claiming these were "secret" weapons biolabs. If they were so secret, why was there public announcement in 2005 and then on the US Embassy website. There was nothing "secret" about them. Remember the Latin phrase Falsus in uno, falsus in ombibus -- false in part, false in whole.

It doesn't matter if you convince people I'm the worst person in the world, the truth is the truth is the truth. The American government, media and fact checking sites have lied to you but you're focused on one guy on the internet who may only influence the minds of a few. The government, media and fact checking sites are influencing the minds of billions. People are dying and our government is lying. Your anger is misplaced. For the time you spent writing a post, you could write a short canned letter and used the links I provided and write to media outlets and fact checking sites telling they are wrong, the American government did fund biolabs in Ukraine. When they fail to make corrections to their articles or fact checks, you will then understand they don't care about the truth. They don't care about YOU. They serve a master that wants a certain narrative projected to accomplish certain goals and the goal may not be peace.

The American government is cleaning up all evidence of funding the biolabs. Biden's State Department is testifying in front of Congress they are afraid of Russia getting their hands on the biolabs? Why? If the biolabs are dealing with low level flu, cold viruses or bacteria or viruses and bacterial that affect animals, Russia doesn't care. They once had and possible still have the world's largest nuclear, chemical, and biological stockpiles. They are pros at making the stuff. Maybe there's something new we created our government is afraid that they'll find. Maybe there will be evidence that a pathogen is to be released like the one in China but this time the Ukrainian people will get infected first. Should I put up a link again to the biolab in Odessa that deals with the plague funded by Soros and other international entities?

Congress controls the purse strings of war. It's why Biden's state department needs to talk to them. Maybe we'll send troops over there not to protect the Ukrainian people but to protect those Deep State project biolabs. Troops may have to die....again due to BS failed foreign policies. Search for old articles and you'll see Russia complaining about the biolabs built in Ukraine and Georgia. America has surrounded them with Biolabs. We could've built them in our country instead of pissing them off. And now we complain they're attacking Ukraine. Russia asked us not to cross certain boundaries but we crossed them anyway...on purpose.

Our government is so corrupt and the media puts out so much propaganda that most people don't know we are in the Supreme Court for election fraud, the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court for election fraud, Wisconsin Congress is seriously talking decertifying the election and recalling their electors and 7 other states are talking about it too. Most of our judges and politicians have been compromised. I'm not sure they're going to take appropriate action. If we don't fix the problems in our country, we won't be capable of fixing Ukraine's problem, especially with a criminal government. I'm not worried about Ukraine being taken over because America has been taken over. We have a chance to correct this. If we don't, you will be witnessing the beginning of the decline of America and our future generations will suffer because we failed.

[Jumper1]

Why should the world trust ANY currency?  Every single currency that has been previously issued ended up being worthless.

You are better off to trust money.  (Currency is not money. It is a substitute for money.)

Maybe the world would go back to using gold and silver coins. (or digital accounts fractionating gold and silver coins.)

The point was the world hasn't been on a gold or silver standards as a means of commerce for decades.
There will likely always be some substitute for that value, and even you brought up crypto based on it. Still a substitute  based on a trusted value

During that time  I've heard continually of the  demise of one.subsitute for another. And despite your comment on trust,
 It is exactly what dictates any substitutes value.

Why should we trust the dollar? You can't fully.
But in general
Maybe from.simply lack.of any viable more.trustworthy.substitute yet.after decades

Im.not saying a shift wont.happen

Im.saying the boy has been crying wolf for my lifetime, I suppose we are due the wolf  really being there.

[Jumper1]

Billy b.
I've worked in biolabs.
You're off base.

Ask that livestock Farmer in georgia, what diesease was isolated and addressed in his herd of sheep.
Just because russia ran with a narrative that fit their objective, doesn't mean their take on it was reality.

Try to remember we dint invade georgia, Russia did.
We did not stir insurgency on our border states, of georgia,and then use that as a justification to recognize them as independent then take military action to invade georgia and secure them. Russia did.

To completely ignore that Russia repeats the big bite ,concession to small bite operation over and over and over, is luducris.
If you are  believing in deep-state BS,then russias.MO.is guided.but its still.thier MO.

[Admin]

It doesn't matter if you convince people I'm the worst person in the world, the truth is the truth is the truth. The American government, media and fact checking sites have lied to you but you're focused on one guy on the internet who may only influence the minds of a few. The government, media and fact checking sites are influencing the minds of billions. People are dying and our government is lying. Your anger is misplaced. For the time you spent writing a post, you could write a short canned letter and used the links I provided and write to media outlets and fact checking sites telling they are wrong, the American government did fund biolabs in Ukraine. When they fail to make corrections to their articles or fact checks, you will then understand they don't care about the truth. They don't care about YOU. They serve a master that wants a certain narrative projected to accomplish certain goals and the goal may not be peace.

The American government is cleaning up all evidence of funding the biolabs. Biden's State Department is testifying in front of Congress they are afraid of Russia getting their hands on the biolabs? Why? If the biolabs are dealing with low level flu, cold viruses or bacteria or viruses and bacterial that affect animals, Russia doesn't care. They once had and possible still have the world's largest nuclear, chemical, and biological stockpiles. They are pros at making the stuff. Maybe there's something new we created our government is afraid that they'll find. Maybe there will be evidence that a pathogen is to be released like the one in China but this time the Ukrainian people will get infected first. Should I put up a link again to the biolab in Odessa that deals with the plague funded by Soros and other international entities?

Congress controls the purse strings of war. It's why Biden's state department needs to talk to them. Maybe we'll send troops over there not to protect the Ukrainian people but to protect those Deep State project biolabs. Troops may have to die....again due to BS failed foreign policies. Search for old articles and you'll see Russia complaining about the biolabs built in Ukraine and Georgia. America has surrounded them with Biolabs. We could've built them in our country instead of pissing them off. And now we complain they're attacking Ukraine. Russia asked us not to cross certain boundaries but we crossed them anyway...on purpose.

Our government is so corrupt and the media puts out so much propaganda that most people don't know we are in the Supreme Court for election fraud, the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court for election fraud, Wisconsin Congress is seriously talking decertifying the election and recalling their electors and 7 other states are talking about it too. Most of our judges and politicians have been compromised. I'm not sure they're going to take appropriate action. If we don't fix the problems in our country, we won't be capable of fixing Ukraine's problem, especially with a criminal government. I'm not worried about Ukraine being taken over because America has been taken over. We have a chance to correct this. If we don't, you will be witnessing the beginning of the decline of America and our future generations will suffer because we failed.

Not even going to make the effort to deconstruct that nonsense.

Billy, you clearly believe the garbage you are spouting. Like any zealot, you are prepared to sacrifice for your beliefs, no matter how ludicrous they may be.

So be it.