Trip Report

[odba]

Since some took over the trip report I started with irrelevant stuff, I m writing one here.

I was approached by Mila Lobunko in September of 2016 on this forum offering to introduce me to her friends. I think she monitors the Starting Out section for new clients. Since I was very busy with work, I was finally able to go in February 2017. Why did I choose to engage her? Because of recommendations on this forum. I was also cautioned against using her services but I didn’t listen.

My expectations for this trip were that I wanted to meet sincere women who were interested in a life partner like I was. All I wanted was introduction. If I happened to meet someone I liked a lot, I planned to pursue her. I was no hurry and I had some expectations and I wasn’t going to settle. If I didn’t meet anyone worth pursuing, no big deal and I would try again.

I chose to not use many of Mila’s offerings such as pick up from airport (I arrived by train from Kiev and had the hotel arrange a taxi pickup for 240 UAH) and apartment booking. I recall she charges $40 for airport pickup. Less than $10 vs. $40. I flew back to Kiev and again the hotel arranged taxi for me. Used booking.com to book a hotel for $40/night. I had no interest in the overpriced services.
 
I understood before I went what I will have to pay Mila. $50/introduction, $20/hr for interpreting. I didn't need Mila’s taxi service which was $70/day and I thought it was excessive and I had no need for a driver waiting. I had the hotel order taxi for me when needed and it was very cheap. While affording all of Mila’s services was easy, I didn't wish to waste money. No, I am not “greedy.” I was happy to meet the ladies in nice restaurants, give them money for taxi, etc.

We met in a restaurant for the first time in the hotel I was staying at. The lady I was supposed to meet was almost an hour late. Lady came, we ate lunch. No connection and I moved on. I paid Mila and later realized she charged me one hour interpreting fee while we were waiting too. I didn’t think I should pay her for that as there was no interpreting. I didn't care to make a big deal but should have questioned that as I think it set a bad precedent for the rest of the time I was there.
 
She showed me many new profiles while I was there. She was indignant at my refusal to meet a couple of the women whose profiles she had sent initially. She said "I don't understand why you won't meet with them. They are so pretty." I had already said no. That should be enough. Obviously, more women I meet, more she gets paid. I was focused on who I was interested in, not everyone she wanted me to meet. I had also declined to meet a new lady who is very attractive. Looks are not everything. I am suspicious when all I hear is how pretty someone is.
 
Next day I met two ladies near the hotel and I walked to both places. Again, no connection. I moved
on. I paid Mila for the day. I had to correct Mila for the amount she quoted me, as it was too high. Perhaps a mistake.
 
Next day I met two more ladies. This time I had the hotel call a taxi for me and went to the restaurant. Lovely lady. She spoke some English. I didn't feel a connection. We went to another restaurant nearby for lunch with another lady. Now, this lady I liked. She was cheerful, spoke good English which was a relief for me. I will call her S. I paid Mila for the day and went back to the hotel. I asked to see S again.
 
Next day, we met two more ladies. the first one had her birthday that day. So, I brought her flowers and candy at Mila’s suggestion. I thought it was excessive for a first meeting but I am new to Ukraine and perhaps that is something people do over there. No connection. Met with another lady later in the afternoon. I used Mila’s taxi service for the return to hotel. At the end of the day I paid. Again the amount was too high for the day. I had to correct again. Once it is an oversight. Multiple times, it is a trend. Perhaps the calculator on her latest & greatest iPhone was faulty.

Next day we met another lady near my hotel for breakfast. By now I was having second thoughts           about this whole thing. I decided to keep going as I wanted to see S a second time and perhaps I could meet another lady that would interest me. Mila was late. I and the lady were seated and she didn’t speak a word of English. Had to use Google Translate which I found to be buggy. This lady was an interesting character. She was flirty and she asked questions like what I thought about mutual sexual generosity. hmm...ok. I asked Mila about the bill (while the lady was in the powder room) as it seemed to have too many entries for the amount of food we ordered. I was told it is accurate. Didn't believe that. Perhaps they charge for use of spoons, forks, knives too. I didn't care to push anymore as the expenditure itself was not a concern. It is peanuts compared to cost of eating a meal in nice restaurants here. And the restaurant didn’t take credit cards just that day.

[odba]

I told Mila that I don't need her for the second meeting with S that evening. She said S wants her there. S speaks pretty good English. Why does she need an interpreter? We spent the dinner talking in English. I paid Mila for being there while we talked in English. I should have said something and stopped there. I viewed it as nothing but cash grab. But I liked S and I wanted to keep going. What is $40 for two hours of interpreting nothing and free meal, if S happens to be the right one? I needed to find out if S is the one I should pursue.
 
Next day I met the flirty lady for a bowling outing at Mila’s suggestion. I got there by taxi called by hotel. We went bowling and had late lunch afterward. She is a possibility I thought. But later on the more I thought about it, I felt that I would be settling. And I wasn’t going to settle.
 
We met two more the next day. Nothing. Moved on.
 
I returned home and kept in touch with S.
The final straw...I sent flowers to S one day through a florist in Kharkiv. I can do this stuff from 5000 miles away without needing someone in Kharkiv to do it for me. Within an hour, I got an email from Mila asking me why I did that and not through her. Why do I need Mila to do this? Why the bleep do I even have answer this question? We had an unpleasant email back and forth. I thought I was a bit rude in the exchange and offered an apology. There was never an agreement or discussion with Mila that I would continue to pay her for something like this. Why did S even tell Mila? I am a grown ass man. S is a grown ass woman. We don't need a greedy (American version of the word) middleman to handle these things. Mila said the S is like a sister to her and she wouldn't care if I sent flowers directly to someone else. Yeah, right. That back and forth made it clear for me that she is only interested in me paying her so she can make money. Fine. We all want to make money. Some of us do that in a non-sleazy fashion.

Very shortly after that email exchange with Mila, S told me she is too busy with activities and friends to communicate. I realized that I was had by these two. It is quite a coincidence that S wanted no part of me when I didn’t use Mila to send flowers. That told me they were only interested in financial benefit and nothing more. I believe now S was never really interested from the beginning. It was my fault to not see that. I don’t know if she was used by Mila or got something to meet with me besides free food and money for taxi. I didn’t do a good job of judging intentions. That is my fault. After 18 years of marriage, my game was way off.

I was furious at myself for not seeing signs correctly to head this off. I moved on and focused on work. I made a number of mistakes on this first attempt and I knew I had a lot to learn when it comes to Ukrainian women. The best way to succeed was to move forward and not stew over this. The money I paid her is a drop in the ocean. I was mad at wasting time in snowy & icy Kharkiv. I would have much preferred a beach & fishing vacation in the Caribbean.

Just like osis from his trip report, I had asked Mila while I was there about marriages that resulted from her matchmaking business. She showed me photos of one couple on her iPhone. I recall she said the man is from Sweden. So, one marriage in many years of being in business. That was another clue I missed. It seems a marriage/relationship is an unexpected outcome. I went the matchmaker route and I picked the wrong one. There are matchmakers in Kharkiv who seem to have dozens of marriages resulting from their services. I just had to make the worst choice.

One thing I noticed is that there was hardly any conversation about what I was thinking during the week. Never asked me what I thought about her service. Barely any  questions to me about what I thought about each lady after I had met them. This was more like a money transaction and free meals each day. She is clearly a money-grubber.  I feel it is strictly about how much cash she can get out of the man. She has no qualms about pushing the boundaries of what is right & wrong.
 
I do not recommend Mila Lobunko to anyone as a matchmaker.

I had since returned to Ukraine to meet 9 ladies after communicating with them on  few free sites. Met one who I thought was a good match but that fizzled out after a few weeks. I had one requirement. The ladies had to speak some English. The search continues.

[ML]

Odba, very good and thorough write-up.

In today's world of dating websites, email, Skype, English speakers in most foreign hotels and restaurants, etc., . . . there is really no need for personal 'match makers.'

They are probably mostly used in these modern times by  those who have zero social skills and need hand-holding.  When dealing with such guys, the match makers come to think of us as very stupid and easy to get a lot of money from.  So they come to rely on that business model which is focused on maximum money extraction, rather than on actually helping to find a true long term partner.

So when thrown into that business model, even those who are not stupid and not lacking in social skills will be subject to the same money extraction process.

Some years ago when guys still relied a lot on Marriage Agencies (as opposed to dating websites), there were comments that honest Marriage Agencies actually could not compete with the dishonest ones, and so they became dishonest over time also.

I think a similar thing happens with once honest match makers and interpreters.

[Trenchcoat]

I'm guessing the stream of men that keep coming to said terp/agent is endless so in the end it becomes, 'what the hey'. After all it probably becomes tiresome honestly trying to hook people up and they still keep coming no matter what. If more money can be extracted through dubious ways then does the agent really have a vested interest in actually trying to find this person someone. For me at least two trip reports like this and the in depth way you have described it Odba certainly suggest to me to stay away from Mila and  these antics. A case of difficulty getting the middleman out the way once involved it looks here just like back in the old agency days.

[lyndontom]

Odba, I'm sure everyone appreciates you coming here with your trip report and I'm sure Mila will reply with her version in due course. I have used her services twice in the past, and might be regarded as one of those that recommended her. But I hope you understand that I can see both sides of the story and hopefully I can remain impartial. I've got no horse in the race, so to speak.

I sense some shortcomings from both sides, and absolutely do understand some of the things you say. I do also sense some frustration that you didn't meet 'the one', but you didn't have any success when you went alone either - so YMMV and we can have the right 'luck' or 'chemistry' sometimes whatever route you go down. With hindsight, I should have posted a trip report back in the summer - good and bad - and I appreciate now how influential and valuable they are here.

Trench - why do you insist on imposing your infinite wisdom on subjects (and in this case somebody's service/livelihood) that you know ZERO about and have ZERO experience with?

[Boethius]

I think people act in accordance with their circumstances.  There is also a cultural divide here.  I don't think the $20 charge for the woman who was late is unfair.  You are buying time, even if the woman was one Mila arranged. You could have left when she didn't appear after 15 minutes.

I suspect the email on the flower arrangement was not intended in an accusatory way, but rather, a "why didn't you use me, what could I have done better" way, even if not so worded.  This is again a cultural miscue, as FSU societies are not generally as polite as are Western ones, so the manner in which Ukrainians communicate with Westerners in English is different. 

I have no dog in this fight, and I am not trying to defend Mila in any way whatsoever, but I do understand the society.

[Trenchcoat]

I would say, people act in accordance with their circumstances.  There is also a cultural divide here.  I don't think the $20 charge for the woman who was late is unfair.  You are buying time, even if the woman was one Mila arranged. You could have left when she didn't appear after 15 minutes.

I suspect the email on the flower arrangement was not intended in an accusatory way, but rather, a "why didn't you use me, what could I have done better" way.  This is again a cultural miscue, as FSU societies are not generally as polite as are Western ones, so the manner in which Ukrainians communicate with Westerners in English is different. 

I have no dog in this fight, and I am not trying to defend Mila in any way whatsoever, but I do understand the society.

How do we know Mila did not text her to be deliberately late? I get the impression Mila would have charged for an hour even if the guy only waited 15 minutes. It may have all been up front but one would expect a discount on the hour if in general no or little interpreting had been done if only as a gesture of good faith.

From reading both this trip report and the one by Osis it appears that perhaps it is Mila that insists on being there as terp for at least 2 meetingS. The girl spoke good English there was no need for her to be there. Indeed it must have looked quite a scene the two of them chatting away with Mila scoffing away in from of them. Boe you can keep on making excuses for someone but in the end so many circumstances speak for themselves.

[Boethius]

There are other trip reports in the past that praised Mila. I will never need her services, am not related to her, will never meet her, so as I posted, don’t have a dog in this fight. Similarly, you have not used her services so your speculation adds little to the discussion. I’m not defending her, just noting business is done differently there.

[southernX]

id tend to agree with bo here that there has been a miscue in the conversation or communication that has escalated

happened at  times with my wife in the early days , and have seen it with her interactions with people here in australia where very easily and quickly she has got the bull by the horns

not hard to be at opposite perspectives if one small thing is understood incorrectly at the outset ime

SX

[BillyB]

Odba, Mila may have dealt with filthy rich men and she may believe that what she charges and how she factors the charges may not be wrong. But you do have a right to go on a date with a lady you like without Mila and she shouldn't have pushed to be there. The other lady should've appreciated the flowers you sent without reporting it to Mila. Mila shouldn't have called you on it unless you have a contract with her to exclusively use all her services and nobody elses. Although you lost your temper through an email exchange with Mila, she shouldn't have recommended to S to avoid you. Clients are paying her to help them succeed, not fail. Although some clients are losers she needs to be careful about talking bad about paying clients. She should stop doing business with a client before talking bad about them.

[Trenchcoat]

I admit Boethius may have a point on the cultural differences aspect. I think a lot of guys myself included have fallen out or got into dispute with a girl because of difficulty understanding where each other are coming from. In our own culture it can be easier to understand as we are more learned on how things are and how people behave. Perhaps there is more need for an experienced mediator than a terp who understands what is going on in each culture.

I am still dubious as to the whole flowers scenario and I think on that point BillyB has a point in Mila making sure she is willing to represent 'her client' i.e the guy who is paying in a favourable light or not to represent him from the outset. After all it looks like she is not short of clients so why represent the guys she is down on in the first place.

[wallm]

But I hope you understand that I can see both sides of the story and hopefully I can remain impartial. I've got no horse in the race, so to speak.

That was good for a laugh. You stated you consider her & her husband friends. Impartial. My a*s. 

[wallm]

odba, interesting report. I hope you have thick skin to deal with the inevitable brushback. The groupies will be out in force demonizing you once the word gets out.

I agree with not settling. No need to. Well done.

All this talk about cultural differences is a cop out. Decency and good character is the same all over if one has it.

Wishing you good luck going forward.

[lyndontom]

That was good for a laugh. You stated you consider her & her husband friends. Impartial. My a*s. 

Good to see you showing your intelligence again wall, think you've been spending too much time with Trench. You certainly post almost as much as him based on about the same level of experience. This coming from a guy who moaned about Ukraine and met a girl he couldn't communicate with?

Just because you lack an open-mind doesn't mean we all do. Because I happen to like Mila and her husband on a personal level doesn't mean I can't be objective when reviewing her service or articulate some of the issues I also encountered. As I said above, if you read it fully, with hindsight I wished I'd done an objective trip report at the time to go through the good and the bad.

I suspect there is more to this story than meets the eye anyway but I'm sure Mila will come and defend herself. And no, before you suggest it, I'm not in cahoots with her to present some sort of defence. It's pure intuition because I've been in town when some of you guys lacking in certain departments have too.

Simple fact is that I met a wonderful woman in Kharkov that Mila introduced me to. We spent 10 days together, some with Mila but most of the time alone. Things did not work out, it's the reality of life and I am young enough not to settle for the first attractive woman I meet. Simple fact is she was beautiful, will make someone a lovely wife and be a fantastic mother but was not the one for me.

In that sense Mila did her side of the job and the rest did not come to fruition. After the 10 days alone with the girl when things didn't work out, did I spit my dummy out and look for someone else to blame? No. I accepted my shortcomings and the lady I met and made a calculated decision to go a different direction.

[lyndontom]

+1. The relationship between a guy and a matchmaker is fraught with issues if there's no open dialogue. I don't think it's possible to please 100% of guys 100% of the time. I've established a friendship with Mila and her husband over the years, so I think it's safe to say we can be honest with each other about things - whether it be me having an issue with the service or cost, or her having an issue about how I may have conducted myself with women or on a date. If some guys don't have the ability to use what's between their ears or aren't able to openly communicate, they'll struggle in Ukraine full-stop. Who can't use Uber or Tinder in this day and age? To spend 2 days just walking around in a city like Kharkov with beautiful women and numerous methods to meet them is a waste if you really want to meet someone.Unless something changes, I probably won't use Mila's services in Kharkov again, but we've become friends. I met a great lady in the summer because of her, sadly things just didn't work out. I've become pretty independent now in Ukraine and I like to manage my own schedule and choose my own type of lady when I'm there. If it's your first visit, I wouldn't talk you out of it. Like everything, different things work for different people and YMMV.

I'm guessing this is the quote wall you used to ascertain I'm friends with Mila and her husband. Interested to know how blind you need to be not to recognise the balance here, but at least I made you 'laugh' (probably your mate Trench too).

I don't know your background, but have you never done deals or negotiated with people who were, or later became, friends or at least people in your social circle?...and then had to sit down and do business again at a later point? Never had to set your like or dislike for someone aside and deliver a result or an opinion fact or result?

Not that I need to justify myself to another know-it-all...but come on; sometimes business and personal feelings have to be put aside. There are also cultural differences. I'm lucky I travel a lot and my colleagues are based around the world so I understand there are some cultural nuances. If you can't understand that, I'm sorry but you're beyond educating here. Impartiality your ass indeed.

[Mila]

Hello Obda,

I am sorry you were unhappy with my services...

I recall our emails a little differently.  S was very interested in you, and I do not know why she stopped writing you.  However, I do know what occurred with the flower delivery.  S works in a very official job, and she was in a serious meeting which was interrupted by the flower delivery person.  S was upset that her meeting was interrupted and she was given flowers in front of her whole office.  For women in Ukraine, these types of things, especially if speculation is she will leave her job to move abroad, can kill a career.  Because of that delivery, S called me and asked why I didn't make the flower delivery.  She assumed the delivery had been arranged through me, and had I come in, I would not have made a production of giving her the flowers.  I always call beforehand, to ensure it is convenient for the woman to receive flowers, and whether she wishes them to be delivered at work or at home.    That was why I emailed you, Odba, and asked why you didn't let me do that.  S asked me to.  Had you explained anything, I would have called S back with your explanation and crafted an apology for you.  But I needed to understand why you sent the flowers to her work.  I would have called S back to explain, and emailed you back at no charge.   

I was unaware that S stopped communicating with you.  Were I to guess why, I think it is because above all else, Ukrainian women are practical.  She sensed that continued communication with a foreigner would place her job, one that is high paying, in jeopardy.  Things with you may not work out,  and if they did not, she still has to support herself.  I am sorry things did not proceed as you wished over something that should have been trivial.

[BillyB]

Mila, very reasonable answer pertaining to the flower delivery episode. Odba, delivering flowers to a woman's work was a bad move. Should've asked for advice from the forum or Mila before doing so. Also, you were in town. Best to present the flowers to her in person on your next date.

[kynrazor]

S was very interested in you, and I do not know why she stopped writing you.  However, I do know what occurred with the flower delivery.  S works in a very official job, and she was in a serious meeting which was interrupted by the flower delivery person.  S was upset that her meeting was interrupted and she was given flowers in front of her whole office.  For women in Ukraine, these types of things, especially if speculation is she will leave her job to move abroad, can kill a career.  Because of that delivery, S called me and asked why I didn't make the flower delivery.  She assumed the delivery had been arranged through me, and had I come in, I would not have made a production of giving her the flowers.  I always call beforehand, to ensure it is convenient for the woman to receive flowers, and whether she wishes them to be delivered at work or at home.    That was why I emailed you, Odba, and asked why you didn't let me do that.  S asked me to.  Had you explained anything, I would have called S back with your explanation and crafted an apology for you.  But I needed to understand why you sent the flowers to her work.  I would have called S back to explain, and emailed you back at no charge.   [/size]

Hmm... A high paying job in Ukraine. One wonders how the flower delivery person would have gotten into the office.

I don't know about her company but in my experience working for a multi-national company like Shell, someone has to go down to meet, vouch and sign the "guest" in at the door first before being allowed in with a limited pass.

To think the delivery person can even get as close to the meeting room as to enter it and disrupt said meeting, hmm. Doubtful I am.

Or perhaps she was called out of her meeting to meet the flower person? That would make sense but still, wouldn't it be standard practice for the clerk to inform the delivery person that she's in a meeting and ask the delivery person to wait or leave the flowers there at the reception?

Unless the Ukrainian reception (security) doesn't care

[Boethius]

I can vouch for the fact that definitely is not the case across Ukraine, particularly for something as pedestrian as flower delivery.  Please don't speculate on how things operate in a foreign country in which you have never done business.

[JayH]

Hello Obda,

I am sorry you were unhappy with my services...

I recall our emails a little differently.  S was very interested in you, and I do not know why she stopped writing you.  However, I do know what occurred with the flower delivery.  S works in a very official job, and she was in a serious meeting which was interrupted by the flower delivery person.  S was upset that her meeting was interrupted and she was given flowers in front of her whole office.  For women in Ukraine, these types of things, especially if speculation is she will leave her job to move abroad, can kill a career.  Because of that delivery, S called me and asked why I didn't make the flower delivery.  She assumed the delivery had been arranged through me, and had I come in, I would not have made a production of giving her the flowers.  I always call beforehand, to ensure it is convenient for the woman to receive flowers, and whether she wishes them to be delivered at work or at home.    That was why I emailed you, Odba, and asked why you didn't let me do that.  S asked me to.  Had you explained anything, I would have called S back with your explanation and crafted an apology for you.  But I needed to understand why you sent the flowers to her work.  I would have called S back to explain, and emailed you back at no charge.   

I was unaware that S stopped communicating with you.  Were I to guess why, I think it is because above all else, Ukrainian women are practical.  She sensed that continued communication with a foreigner would place her job, one that is high paying, in jeopardy.  Things with you may not work out,  and if they did not, she still has to support herself.  I am sorry things did not proceed as you wished over something that should have been trivial.

I have often said on forum that guys need to be very aware and sensitive to a girls situation -- and this example is a perfect example of a guy blundering along blindly with little understanding of the girls situation.
Before anyone starts doubting Mila's explanation here -- I personally have experience of just this situation  -- to be precise -- don't send flowers to work place without a clear acceptance of the concept.

The qualification-- make sure that delivery is pre-arranged by phone with the recipient-- that is actually the usual procedure if florist is given a number to call. If you do give an address for delivery address -- the problem is that the actual delivery person may deliver regardless of other instructions .
I learnt to give an area.city.suburb as address-- and not the precise street address -- so the call has to be made to arrange delivery at a convenient time  & place!

The part of trying to surprise gets lost in all this --true-- but -it is the thought that is the surprise and the flowers are still real !

On the same theme -- a guy showing up unannounced at a girls work can = potential disaster
                            --- "   "       "         "        "              " "    "    home "    "     "           "
What it means is that you need to be in a girls life to learn what and when is an appropriate time for any contact -- and that even includes calling .


       

[kynrazor]

I can vouch for the fact that definitely is not the case across Ukraine, particularly for something as pedestrian as flower delivery.  Please don't speculate on how things operate in a foreign country in which you have never done business.

Ok, perhaps she was called out of her meeting to meet the flower person? That would make sense but still, wouldn't it be standard practice for the clerk to inform the delivery person that she's in a meeting and ask the delivery person to wait or leave the flowers there at the reception?

Obviously I'm not Ukrainian and have never been there Boe. Still, it's just not standard procedure. And this is true for most cities, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, London, Singapore, etc etc. People can't simply bang on the front door, and insist on calling a high-ranked office worker out of her meeting to meet flower guy and collect flowers.

Unless it's an emergency, eg. sick child etc, it simply shouldn't and wouldn't happen??

[JayH]

Ok, perhaps she was called out of her meeting to meet the flower person?

Kyn --see my post above.
I could explain some specifics in my own example -- but  --it is not relevant to the principle I explained .

The point is the girl is/could be in a sensitive position at her work -- she does not need it to be complicated.

[Boethius]

Ok, perhaps she was called out of her meeting to meet the flower person? That would make sense but still, wouldn't it be standard practice for the clerk to inform the delivery person that she's in a meeting and ask the delivery person to wait or leave the flowers there at the reception?

Obviously I'm not Ukrainian and have never been there Boe. Still, it's just not standard procedure. And this is true for most cities, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, London, Singapore, etc etc. People can't simply bang on the front door, and insist on calling a high-ranked office worker out of her meeting to meet flower guy and collect flowers.

Unless it's an emergency, eg. sick child etc, it simply shouldn't and wouldn't happen??

The society there is different.  A flower delivery person with a smile likely could get access to a meeting.

[JayH]

The society there is different.  A flower delivery person with a smile likely could get access to a meeting.

That is 100% true. They may also be already known in the building.

As I said above -- the detail is not relevant.

[Boethius]

All this talk about cultural differences is a cop out. Decency and good character is the same all over if one has it.

I just noticed this post.   The cultural differences is not a "cop out".  There definitely are cultural differences, and as we can determine from the explanation, they were at play here.  I see them here a lot, as there are a lot of people from the FSU here.


I would charge a client if a deal fell through, so why wouldn't Mila charge for sitting with a client when a woman is late?  She is charging for her time.  I think the explanation about the flowers is a cultural difference, at least partly.

That is 100% true. They may also be already known in the building.

Yes, I didn't even think of that.  That definitely would make a difference here as well.