8 Years...

[wicheese]

Looking at the calendar reminds me that it has been eight years since I have started my own RW adventure.  Overall this was a pretty good adventure, it included 12 trips to Russia, 2 to Ukraine, 4 to Europe, 1 to Japan, 1 to India, and a number of trips around the USA which by themselves would qualify as a lifetime worth of adventures for most people, even if you do not include the many wonderful RW I met, so I have no regrets. 


Now what have I learned if I reflect on my personal experience and would share with someone thinking of marrying an FSU women:


1. Don't believe the hype, there is nothing magical about dating an FSU women, the same dynamics are in play as if you would date the women next door (just harder due to cultural differences).


2. Never under estimate the fact that economics play an important part in a ladies decision to move.


3. Understand that the RW is very good with the little white lie and sometimes you may never know the truth, even if you know the truth (I'll let you figure this one out).


4. The success rate of marrying a RW and staying happily married must be really low as all American men I have met in person who have married a RW are divorced or have moved onto RW number 2.


5. Be sure to start this adventure well financed as going there is the inexpensive part. 


So based on the points listed, I would tell someone looking overseas to do it and enjoy the experience, but in the end you might have better long-term luck staying local.  In case you are wondering, my RW adventure will soon be coming to an end and yes, I will be getting a divorce and share some of the blame as I definitely blew through many warning and stop signs thinking that I can beat the odds.  What did I miss:


1. My RW came from humble beginnings, but had acquired expensive tastes (she would fly to Milan for shopping) which I found interesting until I was expected to fiance them (e.g. the diamond bracelet was garbage because it did not come from Tiffany's or the trip to Hawaii could not be considered special because I enjoyed it to).   



2. I did not run for the hills when I learned that she had a habit of dating wealthy married men in Moscow under the belief that it's common in Russia and her past should not be held against her (I bet some are laughing when you read this, but her relationship with a married man, who she met at the gym here in the USA, was the final nail in the coffin). 


3. My little city with a metro population of 3 million was not good enough or big enough, after all Moscow had so much more to offer and this I knew prior to getting married (it does not matter that we did a lot more than she ever did in Moscow because in Moscow she was either working or stuck in a traffic jam).   


4. I underestimated the cultural differences and culture shock that she was experiencing and realized that my marriage became one big power struggle over many small issues (went through three marriage counselors in 2.5 years and each session felt like a boxing match, not an attempt to resolve differences, leading one to suggest to me that I need to file for a divorce). 
[/size]


In the end, other than my wallet being lighter, I really can't complain as I swung for the fences and the ball landed just a little short.  My soon to be ex RW is finishing up a graduate degree at one of the top schools in the USA and is interviewing for positions outside of my little hamlet so she'll be OK (just in case anyone is wondering).   For me, I know I'll be much happier in the future as sometimes we just get it wrong.  But, if you ask me if I will every go back to the FSU looking for love, the answer is NO, NO, and NO (just in case you did not hear me the first time), even with that I don't have any regrets. 


     

[GQBlues]

Bent but not broken. It's good to see you roll with the punch. ML actually started a thread where you're OP's content would've fit in nicely.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17817.0

...4. The success rate of marrying a RW and staying happily married must be really low as all American men I have met in person who have married a RW are divorced or have moved onto RW number 2....

The same rate where we are at...just an argument removed, or two, better with the others that are left.

[Boethius]

Sorry things didn't work out for you, wicheese.

[Gator]

wicheese, you have my sympathy.  At least you have the Brewers and the Packers. 

Yes, you missed some signs in front of your face.  Many men do. I missed a few.

Pardon my bold comment, yet your marriage counselors do not sound very competent.  The sessions should be more about learning to communicate rather than tackling specific issues and conflicts.

You wrote, "...her relationship with a married man, who she met at the gym here in the USA, was the final nail in the coffin."  That conflicts with the agency hype who advertise that RW want AM because all RM are unfaithful.  Logic says that if that many RM are unfaithful, RW must also be unfaithful or otherwise the numbers do not equate. 

There are many faithful RW and RM.  Yet my conversations suggest some if not many RW feel just as entitled as men to have something on the side as if such is insignificant. 

Regarding your decision to look locally for the next one, a Wisconsin man married to a RW told me about his brother.  His brother married a local woman.  After several years she announced she wanted  a divorce.  He did not fight her, so they sold the house and split the proceeds.  He used his share of the money to buy a fine fishing boat and other "man fun" things.  After a year his ex-wife wanted him back.  She wanted to remarry, which would require selling his boat, etc.  He had a few beers, thought about it overnight, and the next day told her "No."   Today he is enjoying his boat, freedom, etc.   and he is a happy man.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   .
Good luck, and thank you for stopping by.   

[ML]

  He used his share of the money to buy a fine fishing boat and other "man fun" things.  After a year his ex-wife wanted him back.  She wanted to remarry, which would require selling his boat, etc.  He had a few beers, thought about it overnight, and the next day told her "No."   Today he is enjoying his boat, freedom, etc.   and he is a happy   man   .
Good luck, and thank you for stopping by.

Reminds of time back before internet when guys and gals posted 'want ads' in newspapers.

A guy posted saying (among other things) that he wanted a gal who had a nice boat.  At end he said, "please send pics . . . of the boat."

[jone]

Gator,

You forgot my Badgers.  They were in the final four this year. 

As for WiCheese, I believe the best is yet to come.  And I hope you find the best in Waunakee.  (It is, after all, the only Waunakee in the world.)   For some reason, you are not the first person that I have heard this story from in Wisconsin this year.  Drop me a PM and when I am home this fall I'll look you up.  I'd love to hear your travel stories.

[Drew]

Some good advice from a guy who has had some experience.

[Patagonie]

Wicheese
I am sorry for you.
It seems to be that you were recently married.
I went through your bio.
You are sportive, wealthy, you are one of those here who have dated plenty, and locally and in FSU.
You are also the one who has advertised pesistently to date  locally rather than an FSU one.
You had great experience of FSU, and few GF from there.
You were picky if i look all the ones you walk away from, it means that you were absolutely capable to keep you head cold before a major decision.

It was difficult for me to find a reason of why you miss the clues.
But here it is :
As you are writing yourself :

1. My RW came from humble beginnings, but had acquired expensive tastes (she would fly to Milan for shopping) which I found interesting until I was expected to fiance them (e.g. the diamond bracelet was garbage because it did not come from Tiffany's or the trip to Hawaii could not be considered special because I enjoyed it to).   



2. I did not run for the hills when I learned that she had a habit of dating wealthy married men in Moscow under the belief that it's common in Russia and her past should not be held against her (I bet some are laughing when you read this, but her relationship with a married man, who she met at the gym here in the USA, was the final nail in the coffin). 
Which proofs that you are not a fool.

The things i have noticed all your bio is that in FSU you only dated wealthy women. Wich was NOT representative of the russian population. What did you do to ONLY meet rich (rich in russian scale, not in us scale) women in FSU ? I would have liked to see your profile, i smell out here that there were through this one  and the way you lead communication and schedule your travel some precious evidences of the outcome. Am i totally wrong ?

You were wrinting the 6th december 2010
"The bad part is that the 95% of the remaining 5% will probably be more concerned with the size of your wallet vs. other attributes.  But, the good news is that by using this process of elimination it will be easy to find the one as that's what you'll be left with."
I spent a lot of time on the ukrainian dating scene.  i know for granted that the russian gdp is higher than the ukrainian one, but a russian lady  who geso in Milan for shopping or goos to  skiing in Sotchi is definitively not from the middle class.
"She has definitely dived the Maladives before and like you she prefers the warmer waters, but sometimes looks for something different so she has made the trip up to the White Sea for the ice diving.  Now she's after me to get certified as she's hinting that the Galapagos is the one location she has yet to check off her list (for some reason I'm thinking there be a diving vacation in my future which is only fair as she runs with me and I know it's not her first choice). "
In these cases, not being sure about what their incomes are ready to cover, i always try to guess how many wealthy guys have done the job before. Which supposes that i will be the next. Because the general law whith women is when they have got a lifestyle, they are likely to want the same as they used before, and if possible a better one. BUT this is only possible if you have given her enough clues about your economical status, to let her you chasing her. A woman would not let you chasing her if you have not the profile.

[Faux Pas]

Wicheese, I am saddened to hear of your misfortune. The cold hard fact is, some marriages need to end because they were not meant to succeed. It's not my intention in anyway to rub salt in the wounds. If you don't mind, your story is an excellent learning tool for those that stop to read it. I remember your journey as much of it paralleled with mine in close to the same time frame.

Regardless of your now ex-wife's humble beginnings, she had progressed into some high end circles with wealth. She grew accustom to and expected it. Wealth is wealth no matter what country you find it in. That is where you met her. There seemed to be a pervasive attitude/feeling on the forums at the time that such a Moscow woman was quite the catch. Indeed they likely are if you can continue to keep them happy and financed once the new wears off. In all likelihood much wealthier, more active men than you could not or would not keep her. There is a reason for that. Every single woman or man for that matter that one meets the old adage holds true, "Someone is tired of their shit."

I certainly married up and out of my league. In looks and education. The one place I did keep my head out of the clouds were expectations. I actually down played my lifestyle. I'm not poor but, she likely had the opinion that I was. I remember reading your TRs about the trips and vacations and wondering how it would play out in the end. Wicheese, did you date like women at home before going to Russia? Women and more specifically, the female mentality is the same the world over. I raise those points for this:

There was much discussion in those days about dating in ones own "sphere" or league. I never considered that "league advice" to be looks or education but I took it to heart on lifestyle. Certainly my marriage could end tomorrow. If it did, I'll be a better man for having been married to this wonderful lady and I wouldn't regret a single minute of it.

For newbies be prepared, you can find what you seek. Just be very careful of what you seek. I encourage all to date the same type of woman abroad that you would date at home. Yes the looks and education are easier to find but, so are those with the same expectations for those that look. Looks are always superficial. Expectations and lifestyle can be feigned for a while, eventually, the cows leave the barn.

[jone]

I certainly married up and out of my league. In looks and education.

Every woman I am with has me in both categories.  (It doesn't take much.)

[Patagonie]

Faux Pas :
i do agree with what you wrote : "I actually down played my lifestyle".
And i have prevented, and even today, to raise the level of life style. I strictly control it.
About the league, i would say : i tried to not go further than 0.5 point upper the maximum i was dating in my country in beauty sclale, but for the wealth league  i was suspecting that any woman with a "upper middle FSUS class life style" would be a problem and a disaster. The reasons ?
The cruise speed when you are single and with a family are totally different, knowing as every experienced fellow know here, that she cannot work the first two or three years.
I have discovered through all my dating time that FSU women, whatever is their knowledge of the west, whatever the number of travels they have done,that they are totally disillusionned in the  waythey have to understand economics of the real western life.
Adds to this the cultural "men pay for all", i am the princess (which they are and you are paid back) and you aim for a lot of problems if from the SCRATCH, you don't keep a TOTAL control of the height you have decided to cruise in terms of life style.
As they have no clues about purchase power and wealth distribution, if you start to mention some numerals they would make plan accordingly, on  FSU basis, corrected of their very limited knowledge of the western life.

We had had here the story of a fellow who met a FSU woman from Turkey. He was underestimating totally how he was wealthy in the US society (in the US society !!!) and validated him  in her choice by starting to throw away the money like water for her. They were having two different agendas. Her was to find a wealthy support, with a flat as guarantee and a daily high life style as she was used before and he wanted to love and to be loved. This didn't mean that she didn't like him, but for sure he would have denied her when it was time to go to expansive restaurants and  asking some money therefore he would have save a lot of feelings and time.

[BillyB]

1. Don't believe the hype, there is nothing magical about dating an FSU women, the same dynamics are in play as if you would date the women next door (just harder due to cultural differences).


2. Never under estimate the fact that economics play an important part in a ladies decision to move.


3. Understand that the RW is very good with the little white lie and sometimes you may never know the truth, even if you know the truth (I'll let you figure this one out).


4. The success rate of marrying a RW and staying happily married must be really low as all American men I have met in person who have married a RW are divorced or have moved onto RW number 2.

First you say the above and then you go on to say.....

I definitely blew through many warning and stop signs thinking that I can beat the odds. 

How can you label all RW the same when you knowingly married an insincere woman? If you married a sincere woman would you post the same list?

in the end you might have better long-term luck staying local. 

Staying local is not the answer if a guy can't identify sincere women from the insincere. He also must have the ability to discard insincere women instead of marrying them no matter what country she's living in.

[notforone]

I actually down played my lifestyle. I'm not poor but, she likely had the opinion that I was.

And i have prevented, and even today, to raise the level of life style. I strictly control it.

Outstanding advice. There is no point attracting the gold diggers or the demanding bitches regardless of their youth and looks. And stay away from women that mention that they look for "generous man" in their profile or even hint at it. I had a recent ugly experience with all this. I was not careful enough in information I shared with the woman, she developed expectations that I was not willing to fulfill from the first meeting anyway. Best approach is to never mention anything of monetary value in communications, no pictures of houses, cars, etc. no hints at all. And if she asks, then abort and move on. IMO.

[Patagonie]

Between bragging and "honesty" there are all these trouble waters where men capsize when it is time to speak about them. And men traditionnaly speak about tehmselves through  their work and their belongings (car, house  and some other things). They even sometimes facilitate things to women by giving the exact price of the device.
They are just setting some expectations in women mindset, whom are waiting that men will perform accordingly. Add to this the cultural eastern differences and you fall in a booby trap. It will probably brings her in many case some advantages as a green card and some money (or really a lot) with the advantageaous divorce law system we have in the west.
As you have said Notforone they have a core game that they can play anytime  if necessities are needed. They can survive and let some years to go if needed. I have the example around my wife of a woman who is married now in remote mode waiting to have her citizenship as her soon who is gong to be adopted by the husband. If necessary she is banged from time to time by someone else. Her motto ? She don't have other choice for the moment. Understand : when she will have she will choose an other man.

[BillyB]

Best approach is to never mention anything of monetary value in communications, no pictures of houses, cars, etc. no hints at all. And if she asks, then abort and move on. IMO.

Women, including wicheese's ex, have the right to know something about a man before she gets seriously involved with him. Just as men have the right to marry a woman they are physically attracted to, a woman has the right to marry a man who can provide for a family. Beware of a woman who has NO financial stability requirements of her man. If she is satisfied with her and her children living in a trailer home park, she's not for me.


When I communicated with women, I'd tell them I live in a house and I'm a project manager for a construction company which does earthwork and underground utilities. I read blueprints, estimate costs, negotiate contracts and manage workers at job sites. I never send them a photo of my house but sometimes I show them a photo of myself in dirty work clothes standing next to a bulldozer or excavator.


Some women are interested on how I live my life, others are not. Some women ask me my level of education. I tell them I have a few years of college but didn't finish because I joined the Army during the first Gulf War to serve my country. Some women would stop writing me. Some women will write they are looking for a more intelligent and educated man who works a professional line of work.


I say "goodbye" and wish those women well in their search. I do not try to convince those women, no matter how beautiful they are, that I am an intelligent man and there's much more to me. I do not tell them that when I was 16 years old, the military wrote my parents to encourage me to join their nuclear program as an officer. I do not tell them I have the ability to finish college with a degree but after the military, I decided to work and build a business that I own. I do not tell them that my business does work worth millions. There's more but why lure them back? Those women made up their mind that I don't have a degree and I work with dirt for a living and which is not appealing. They would live in shame being married to a man like me.


I figure if I can't show a woman how intelligent I am through communicating with her, it's best we don't get together. It's best men win women based on who they are, not what they own. Most women judge men to some degree based on their success in life and they have the right to hook up with successful men, especially the more deserving sincere women. Sincere women will make her man more successful. Insincere women will bring their man down.


If a man chooses NOT to disclose his job, what he lives in(house, apartment, trailer), and certain successes in life, he will lose women. He won't only scare off the gold diggers, he will scare off quality women too. There are ways a man can show his abilities to support a family without showing off and keep the gold diggers away.

[Boethius]

Outstanding advice. There is no point attracting the gold diggers or the demanding bitches regardless of their youth and looks. And stay away from women that mention that they look for "generous man" in their profile or even hint at it. I had a recent ugly experience with all this. I was not careful enough in information I shared with the woman, she developed expectations that I was not willing to fulfill from the first meeting anyway. Best approach is to never mention anything of monetary value in communications, no pictures of houses, cars, etc. no hints at all. And if she asks, then abort and move on. IMO.

IIRC, you are looking for a woman decades younger.  The chance of you finding a woman who is not wanting to trade up in life is remote.  You are seeking a mate in a poorer country precisely because it is there that you will find a woman who is more attractive than you could hope to land locally.  She is trading her looks and youth for a lifestyle she can't achieve at home. 

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas :
i do agree with what you wrote : "I actually down played my lifestyle".
And i have prevented, and even today, to raise the level of life style. I strictly control it.

Patie, while I agree with most of your post this is where I disagree. I don't control it. Neither does she. She has complete access to all of the funds that I do. She is free to use them and make spending decisions as she sees fit. Some she will ask and discuss, some she doesn't. Regardless, after the decisions are completed most all are discussed. She doesn't need or require my permission nor, do I need hers. Bad purchasing decisions or choices are discussed as are the good ones. Often one of us will consult the other before a large expenditure. Sometimes not. For me, it's about trust. She has the ability to ruin and clean me out. If she ever does, I'll recover, in time. I've had nothing before and still managed to keep most of it. I can't take it with me when I go.

Women, including wicheese's ex, have the right to know something about a man before she gets seriously involved with him. Just as men have the right to marry a woman they are physically attracted to, a woman has the right to marry a man who can provide for a family. Beware of a woman who has NO financial stability requirements of her man. If she is satisfied with her and her children living in a trailer home park, she's not for me.

Pure bravado Billy. The woman has the right to know how and if you'll take care of her. My wife never mentioned one single "requirement" she expected of me. I told her what she could expect. I told her again and again and again. Eventually, I showed her pictures of my very modest home. Trust me, very modest. I never mentioned that I owned several homes and parcels and I lived in the worst of them. At the time it was all I required. I was a single man and at home very seldom. I didn't need much. When she found out she was very surprised and even a little perturbed that I didn't mention many things.

I only promised my wife that we would live a modest existence not much different that I did at the time and, she would be free to do as she wished. Work, go to school or stay at home. That choice was hers. I've been fortunate enough to be able to keep that promise. We live a very nice but modest lifestyle and enjoy ourselves. It's what I did before her and it's what we do now.

[lonedrake]

wicheese,

 Thank you for posting this info and story. It is easy to post success stories but takes much more courage to post about failures.
 You also give yourself much of the blame. You sound like you are doing well considering what you have gone through.

 

[Drew]

Quote from: Patagonie on Today at 10:56:31 AM

"And i have prevented, and even today, to raise the level of life style. I strictly control it."

Patie, while I agree with most of your post this is where I disagree. I don't control it. Neither does she. She has complete access to all of the funds that I do.

Patagonie can clarify, but I don't think he meant that he keeps his wife specifically from spending what she wants to.

I think he means that he ensures that the family unit (himself included) does not spend beyond its means.  He does not borrow money or use credit cards to finance things that the family unit cannot afford.  He is probably even putting away some good sums for retirement, etc.

[PBRstreetg]

wicheese, I read up, what is the little white lie sir?

[Doll]

IIRC, you are looking for a woman decades younger.  The chance of you finding a woman who is not wanting to trade up in life is remote.  You are seeking a mate in a poorer country precisely because it is there that you will find a woman who is more attractive than you could hope to land locally.  She is trading her looks and youth for a lifestyle she can't achieve at home.

Boe, looking for all this "because they CAN"(younger, good looking, etc.) they want sincere woman.
Hello!

[Doll]

Guys, what does it mean- "I actually down played my lifestyle"?
In your case?
How?

[jone]

Doll,

It means that you meet your husband with a baseball cap on and you don't know what is in his bank account because he doesn't brag about it.  Sound familiar?

[Doll]

Doll,

It means that you meet your husband with a baseball cap on and you don't know what is in his bank account because he doesn't brag about it.  Sound familiar?

I understand the meaning, I asked in THIS CASE how they did it.
 
 

[Doll]

About "white lie" - my version.
Like I said before, you will NEVER know what  is really on RW's mind.
It's one of the "defenitions"
We can say or do something for years and years then- turn 180 degrees over one minute (or day)))))) Because we get fed.
Русские медленно запрягают, но быстро едут.