Newt or Mitt VS Obama. Can either of 'em beat him?

[Eduard]

I'm not naive, I understand corruption and special interests. However life is better and people have more freedom when we have politicians in the office who are backed by corporations rather than politicians backed by unions, the left and the likes of George Soros. Just my opinion.

[BC]

Eduard,

Yeah right...  Corporations have done wonders for the US economy.. banking and finance in particular.

Fool's Gold.

[Gator]

Eduard,

Yeah right...  Corporations have done wonders for the US economy.. banking and finance in particular.

Fool's Gold.

Two points.

1.  Corporations = business.  The opposite is government.  Government has grown to 25% of the nation's GDP.  Government needs to decline.  I believe it has recently come down to 24%, but more decline is needed, not more government stimulus. Instead of creating government jobs, we need to encourage business to grow jobs, particularly small business. 
 
You as a small business owner should recognize this.  However, I get the impression that your business sucks the government teat (or at least does it indirectly, e. g. compliance with government regulations).   If so, you welcome government programs.
 

2.  Banking and finance.  You are correct that financial leveraging created a house of cards.  But why were bank covenants relaxed to allow such?  It started with government "do good" social programs allowing people who could not afford a home to buy a home (and even end up with cash in their pocket).
 
 
 
 

[Gator]

My take is that the RNC accomplished the following:
 
1.  Revealed that Romney is a decent human being instead of the corporate raider advertised by the Democrats.  His integrity is paramount, yet this was little known because he is a private person and does not have the charisma of Obama.  The RNC avoided contrasting Romney's integrity with Obama's, and I appreciate not slinging mud because much of the questions about Obama's integrity are exactly that, questions and unproven.
 
2.  Made it clear that Romney-Ryan will address the critical issues (e. g., entitlement reform) that have been ignored by Obama and Bush and Clinton and......
 
3.  Focused the campaign on job creation, which is the only way to get out of the hole America is in.
 
4.  Attacked the weak performance of Obama as the President for the past four years, particularly Obama's lack of leadership.
 
5.  Made it evident that everything in Romney's history has prepared him for President (in contrast with Obama who had little experience).
 
 

[GQBlues]

Not a big fan of Romney's speech. Too much rhetorical quips / negative political jabs. We already know Obama sold the country a bill of goods. No need to sit there for another 20 minutes just to hear it again. Eastwood, matters little what or why you think got him in this convention, at least cited what is arguably the most powerful message in the entire campaign in far fewer words...

" If someone doesn't do their job, you just got to let 'em go!" Simple and effective. Kudos to Rubio as well.

So for now, I'm waiting with bated breathe and see/hear exactly why the DNC felt compelled to have Sandra Fluke in their line-up. May as well hear from the horse's mouth - figuratively and literally.

My two cents say the DNC will try and (confuse) convince the gullibles that our economy had improved and are going strong despite the contrary....and they'll roar, cheer, applaud, scream, the balloons will drop and pop and the Kool-aid will gush and CNN/MSNBC/Networks will official declare the ocean had parted and the Messiah had finally arrived to the great state of North Carolina!

Henrietta Hughes and Peggy Joseph will be sitting front row...

[Faux Pas]

Romney just doesn't excite me. While his business acumen is stellar and made him a very rich man I still have a nagging suspicion about his motives. Why would a man who has already achieved the wealth and heights he has want to be president? The lust for power. Perhaps he is as good and pure in his heart as "they" proclaim but I have my doubts. Maybe it's a Freudian slip/thing on my part.

I have to say however, his inclusion of Ryan on the ticket does energize me and leave with some hope where I had none. Ryan is youth/intelligence/brass bawls, willing to do what is needed to get government under control. The Republican Party has needed such for a long time. The problem we face as a nation is not as complex as many would want you to believe and Ryan understands that. Government spending has to reverse and government has to shrink. The government teat is much to big and unsustainable

I tend to side with the Libertarian Party and have for the last 10 years. We need government out of our lives. We need to leave other nations to their own devices and keep our assistance on humanitarian levels only.

Obama isn't an option. Four more years of him will cripple the nation with another 16 trillion of debt. A total collapse of the US economy will have serious ripple effects around the world. 2008 was a mere toe in the water and just a bad thunder storm compared to the hurricane that is coming unless serious changes are made. IMHO

[Gator]

Not a big fan of Romney's speech. Too much rhetorical quips / negative political jabs. We already know Obama sold the country a bill of goods. No need to sit there for another 20 minutes just to hear it again.

 
You have already clearly decided how to vote.  Who cares what you think.    Romney is reaching out to 1) the undecideds and 2) those who voted for Obama in 2008 and now feel some disappointment.

My two cents say the DNC will try and (confuse) convince the
gullibles that our economy had improved and are going strong despite the
contrary....

Somehow they will also work in that is is fair to tax success, even though "success" is already paying a disproportionate share of government largess.
 
And Democrats will try to convince that they are the best for the Middle Class.
 
How much will Obama blame the cards he was dealt in 2008?  Will we hear a new version of "Hope and Change?"   Or will we hear negativity (things were bad, and while life is improving it will take a long time to turn this around and Democrats are the best for the Middle Class in such periods)?
 

....and they'll roar, cheer, applaud, scream, the balloons will drop and pop and the
Kool-aid will gush and CNN/MSNBC/Networks will official declare the ocean had parted and the Messiah had finally arrived to the great state of North Carolina!

Obama promised to slow the rise of the oceans, but a hydraulic engineer can show that parting the oceans raises their level. 
 
 

[Eduard]

Two points.

1.  Corporations = business.  The opposite is government.  Government has grown to 25% of the nation's GDP.  Government needs to decline.  I believe it has recently come down to 24%, but more decline is needed, not more government stimulus. Instead of creating government jobs, we need to encourage business to grow jobs, particularly small business. 
 
You as a small business owner should recognize this.  However, I get the impression that your business sucks the government teat (or at least does it indirectly, e. g. compliance with government regulations).   If so, you welcome government programs.
 

2.  Banking and finance.  You are correct that financial leveraging created a house of cards.  But why were bank covenants relaxed to allow such?  It started with government "do good" social programs allowing people who could not afford a home to buy a home (and even end up with cash in their pocket).

Thank you!

[Gator]

I tend to side with the Libertarian Party and have for the last 10 years. We need government out of our lives. We need to leave other nations to their own devices and keep our assistance on humanitarian levels only.

I took one of those online tests about which candidate I should vote for.  Surprise!  The results showed me as more closely aligned with the Libertarians' George Johnson.   Who?  Bigger surprise!  Obama was second. This is because the analysis ranked all issues equally, and I am aligned with the Democrats on some issues and Libertarians on many. 
 
This year I am a single-issue voter - the economy.   To vote for Johnson rather than Romney in a swing state such as Florida could usher in an Obama victory because Johnson has only a snowball's chance of winning.   And Obama would continue the dismal status quo.    Also, I do not know much about Johnson.
 

  Perhaps he is as good and pure in his heart as "they" proclaim but I have my doubts.   

You are the skeptic.  The man is 65-yo.  If there were questions, should these not have surfaced by now, especially given that our press is mostly liberal?
 
Romney's largest fault - lack of television charisma.  Yet he is so vastly qualified compared to Obama.   Leadership is key, and Romney has proven that in business and the Olympics.  Nevertheless, dealing with Congress is not the same as dealing with a Board of Directors.   How did Obama do with dealing with Congress, even when his Party had plurality?
 
 

[Eduard]

My take is that the RNC accomplished the following:
 
1.  Revealed that Romney is a decent human being instead of the corporate raider advertised by the Democrats.  His integrity is paramount, yet this was little known because he is a private person and does not have the charisma of Obama. 

Phil, as you know I am an intuitive person and a pretty good judge of character. When I look at Obama I see a poser, a fake. His act will fool many people, but not all. I, for one don't buy his act.

[Eduard]

Obama isn't an option. Four more years of him will cripple the nation with another 16 trillion of debt. A total collapse of the US economy will have serious ripple effects around the world. 2008 was a mere toe in the water and just a bad thunder storm compared to the hurricane that is coming unless serious changes are made. IMHO

+1

[Eduard]

You are the skeptic.  The man is 65-yo.  If there were questions, should these not have surfaced by now, especially given that our press is mostly liberal?
 
Romney's largest fault - lack of television charisma.  Yet he is so vastly qualified compared to Obama.   Leadership is key, and Romney has proven that in business and the Olympics.  Nevertheless, dealing with Congress is not the same as dealing with a Board of Directors.   How did Obama do with dealing with Congress, even when his Party had plurality?

Exactly!

[Faux Pas]

I took one of those online tests about which candidate I should vote for.  Surprise!  The results showed me as more closely aligned with the Libertarians' George Johnson.   Who?  Bigger surprise!  Obama was second. This is because the analysis ranked all issues equally, and I am aligned with the Democrats on some issues and Libertarians on many. 
 
This year I am a single-issue voter - the economy.   To vote for Johnson rather than Romney in a swing state such as Florida could usher in an Obama victory because Johnson has only a snowball's chance of winning.   And Obama would continue the dismal status quo.    Also, I do not know much about Johnson.

I've taken that quiz a number of times over the years and pretty much stay in the same place. Moderate and closer to Libertarian than either of the other two parties. I consider myself a Constitutionalist and those tenets be adhered to and unchanged. I agree with you on the economy being the single most important issue in this election. The republicans IMHO are best equipped to attack that problem. Obama and the democrats haven't a clue or desire.
 

You are the skeptic.  The man is 65-yo.  If there were questions, should these not have surfaced by now, especially given that our press is mostly liberal?
 
Romney's largest fault - lack of television charisma.  Yet he is so vastly qualified compared to Obama.   Leadership is key, and Romney has proven that in business and the Olympics.  Nevertheless, dealing with Congress is not the same as dealing with a Board of Directors.   How did Obama do with dealing with Congress, even when his Party had plurality?

Yes I am a skeptic and I freely admit it. I don't trust politicians. The system is corrupt to the core and generally, only the corrupt rise within it. Romney has the DNA, the pedigree, the money and the experience. What is wrong with a man that seemingly has no faults?

Obama has failed miserably in everything particularly, Leadership. Case in point is what you pointed to in his struggles to lead his own party and unite the aisles as was his last campaign promise (among hundreds). The man has proved to be nothing more than a nice suit reading a teleprompter making empty promises

[ML]

 
Romney's largest fault - lack of television charisma.

I hadn't watched much of the political TV at all in the past year or so.
I  had heard a lot  of these comments by others.

But, I did see most of Romney's acceptance speech.
I must say, I thought there was a fair amount of charisma there; and, more important, I  saw a really take charge type guy who inspires a lot of confidence.

I would like him to be in charge when the crises come rolling  along.

[BC]

Two points.

1.  Corporations = business.  The opposite is government.  Government has grown to 25% of the nation's GDP.  Government needs to decline.  I believe it has recently come down to 24%, but more decline is needed, not more government stimulus. Instead of creating government jobs, we need to encourage business to grow jobs, particularly small business. 

Gator,

I agree with you!... with one caveat.  I'm sure you understand the concept of diversification to mitigate risk. Now lets try to apply that to the current Business / Government  'status quo'.  20 or more years ago, Government looked at Business and said 'Hey.... look what they are doing... can't we do that too?.. or even better ask Business to do it for us?'...   In the context of 20+ years ago, we were talking about small and medium businesses providing services to the Government.  Business back then was broken down into Small, Medium and Large..  all were allowed to participate and generally Government got a fair deal.

Over the years though, Business changed..  Mergers, consolidation, buy out's .... basically any small / medium business that was successful was ingested by bigger business in the same field... sort of like little fish gets eaten by bigger fish who get eaten by even bigger fish who get eaten by white sharks and killer whales..

In effect, this limited the possibility of Government not only to distribute risk and receive competitive offers, but also put them in the position of having to deal with white sharks and killer whales, who through massive political lobbying efforts were able to push Government more and more into the sphere of 'Sole source contracting'.... -and you know exactly what that means.....

In essence its sort of like the dwindling middle class topic.. Small and medium businesses today are a dying breed.  This leaves Government facing huge risks with unethical Big Business that have reached the level of 'Too Big To Fail' or 'Too Big To Remedy'.  Just look at big defense contractors, cheating stealing and lying whenever they want, however they want and even when caught red handed only get a slap on the wrist for doing so.

How many times have you heard men come here touting their desire for a 'traditional woman'?  Your desire seems to be the same in the Government / Business context... but such simply does not exist anymore!.  Get used to sharks and killer whales.  That's the norm nowadays with Government and the taxpayer getting screwed right and left.

Government will always be a part of our lives.  Healthcare, even aside from any aspects of Obamacare is ridden with worms.. even snakes, due much to the same aspects I describe above..

I do see however that a large part of Obamacare is trying to rid the system of snakes.  I am not confident that Romney will do so..  I can't recall him ever having mentioned a war on Fraud.

You as a small business owner should recognize this.  However, I get the impression that your business sucks the government teat (or at least does it indirectly, e. g. compliance with government regulations).   If so, you welcome government programs.

As stated, I do live indirectly from Government.  I provide good, honest and ethical services to 'Big Business'... now what they do with my efforts is their business.   I can't tell you how many times I have asked Government about this or that contract just to hear the words 'Sole source, or No Bid..'  I make a decent living but cannot spend millions or even hundreds of millions to lobby Congress or Presidents.  The teat I suck is another.

2.  Banking and finance.  You are correct that financial leveraging created a house of cards.  But why were bank covenants relaxed to allow such?  It started with government "do good" social programs allowing people who could not afford a home to buy a home (and even end up with cash in their pocket).

Gator, I pose one simple question.  Just because Government opens doors, does that give a license to steal without penalty?  Maybe this was a case of Government trusting Business too much?

[BC]

I took one of those online tests about which candidate I should vote for.  Surprise!  The results showed me as more closely aligned with the Libertarians' George Johnson.   Who?  Bigger surprise!  Obama was second. This is because the analysis ranked all issues equally, and I am aligned with the Democrats on some issues and Libertarians on many. 
 
This year I am a single-issue voter - the economy.   To vote for Johnson rather than Romney in a swing state such as Florida could usher in an Obama victory because Johnson has only a snowball's chance of winning.   And Obama would continue the dismal status quo.    Also, I do not know much about Johnson.
 
You are the skeptic.  The man is 65-yo.  If there were questions, should these not have surfaced by now, especially given that our press is mostly liberal?
 
Romney's largest fault - lack of television charisma.  Yet he is so vastly qualified compared to Obama.   Leadership is key, and Romney has proven that in business and the Olympics.  Nevertheless, dealing with Congress is not the same as dealing with a Board of Directors.   How did Obama do with dealing with Congress, even when his Party had plurality?

Gator,

By all major indicators the economy is recovering... not as fast as one would like in this age of 'instant satisfaction', but it is indeed getting there.

First review this chart...

http://blytic.com/Player.aspx?key=21644

compare 2009 with 1975.. is it really that different?  When evaluating consider that Big Business during 2009 was able to cut a lot of employment pork and learned to live a bit leaner and meaner.....

Who was President in 1975?

Take a lok at the attached chart... Is Romney's assertion that 'It's not any better' correct?

Review http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57504387-503544/fact-check-mitt-romneys-convention-speech/

and http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/us/politics/ryans-speech-contained-a-litany-of-falsehoods.html

Sure, one can scream bias, but looking closely it's hard to find flaws.

I would vote for Romney / Ryan if there wasn't so much BS being spouted in the hopes of being believed.

A very successful business partner over the years told me...'BC.. when people hear a proposal, they always believe at least half...  so your success will depend on how good you can exaggerate...'

I was up very early this morning to watch the RNC speeches.. I saw a lot of exaggeration.

[BC]

Oh... and btw.... I watched Ryan.. I watched Romney...

But I really enjoyed Eastwood.

That's Entertainment!

[BC]

Ohh...

and btw....

[BC]

Isn't it sooo nice...

The Fed breaths optimism and the next moment speculation sucks it dry....

[BC]

Isn't it sooo nice...

The Fed breaths optimism and the next moment speculation sucks it dry....

So oil goes up, EUR goes up, USD goes down, gold goes up and stocks go up......

And that's called stabilizing the economy....

You gotta be kidding me...

I'd hate to see what happens when Bernanke farts....

[Anotherkiwi]

Moderators and Advisors did discuss this point when the thread started.  Consensus was that as long as discourse remains civil, an exception would be in order this election year, as a test and only in this thread.

Thanks for the clarification.

[GQBlues]

Being this year's election is *the* hot topic in most public circle, our golfing club is certainly not immune to the buzz and the discussions that resides within these circles lately. I am a recipient of some shockingly and fairly appalling POVs that some spill-out in support of their political persuasion. Case in point, my good friend 'J'. He's a charter high school teacher, a Democrat and a hard-nosed Obama supporter. He isn't as adamant, voiceful and open about his conviction to anyone else as he is with me. Being an African-American, his seeming comfort with me is arguably a result of my skin coloration. An unspoken 'kinship', if you will...

Anyway, as intelligent as 'J' is, I am shocked at some of the things that come out of him so much so that I've had to periodically (and redundantly) ask him if he was joking. I couldn't for the life of me believe anyone can be so stern in their beliefs that apparently certain reality bears no place in his world.

Here are a couple of example....

1) Obama's economic prowess: According to 'J', he doesn't understand why the Republicans keep harping about the Stimulus Bill being such a waste and that it had done nothing to help the economy. In his mind (thus contention), the Republicans are completely insane to not credit the fact that if it wasn't for the Stim Bill the banks would not have been bailed-out and the '08 financial collapse would've further escalated the crisis.

He vehemently believes GM already paid their debt (bailout) in full. (Sic) Remember that commercial? *WE*, according to him, should be thankful that despite the defiant Republicans, Obama still found a way to push that bill through and avert a total US/global financial collapse. ('Dude, are you serious? You're not joking me, are you?')

2) The evil banking institution (i.e. conspiracy against the black man). 'J' owns a nice condo in a good location. His mortgage prior to the crisis was $200K. He tells me he always knew his unit was amassing a huge amount of equity by virtue of the bank/s constant notices to refinance and take advantage of the windfall. They'd offered creative financing that will net him a tidy sum to do with it as he pleases. So, after a while, he trotted into his bank (Countrywide), signed the dotted line, closed the escrow and handed him an equity princely check in the amount of +/- $100K. He said he was stoked since his monthly payments hardly changed and he's positioned to cut the fat off the hog for a spell with his new-found 'wealth'.

Then the bubble burst. The condo plummeted back down to what it was worth (200K) and his NEW creatively variable rated financed mortgage was hitting the stratosphere and started flooding him some seriously *unexpected* monthly payments. Dire still if you consider his home is seriously underwater.

He blamed Countrywide. He still does today apparently ('J', u kidding me?'). In his heart of hearts he strongly believes he should only 'owe' the bank $200K because that's all it's worth ~ then and now. I casually asked, "FWIW, it must've been nice to have 100K to spend lavishly. Whose money was it that you happily spent after you closed that escrow? Was it yours or the bank's?" Response: *Who cares? I feel it was mine for their attempt to dupe me*.

Today he's in the midst of *re-negotiating* with the bank (now BofA) since he stopped paying his mortgage a year and a half ago and the banks had since levied +$35K on added penalties because of it. His total mortgage obligations today is + $340K, which he feels that if only the bank accepts the fact it's their fault and bring that total down to $200K, then he'll happily sit down and strike a deal with them. He said this (housing programs) is the Republican party's antics to make things more difficult for the less-opportuned (he grosses +80K/yr and will retire with full pension in 7 years - when he turns 50. Teachers retire after teaching for 30 years apparently) folks like him ((sic) color). "It's a conspiracy", he'd say. So they (*we*) must pay for that.

He always say: "Bottom line is, my life seem to be so much better every time a Democrat takes office in DC!" To which I would ask, "Do you know why?', chuckle and remark openly, 'It may have something to do with the fact you belong to the Teacher's union, you know?'

So, in the overall scheme of things, the beauty of our national collectivity and in the spirit of a unified society...his vote will count just as much as mine will.

Always.

Note: This is not about 'race'. *J* could have been as white as Larry Bird and I'd still have the same shocked disbelief response.


More on the RNC:

Mitt Romney SHOULD NOT have used Steve Jobs as an example to make a point for 'business enterprising'. He also should not have brown-nosed his way trying to 'sway' the gender votes. It made him appear desperate, contrived and/or fake.

[Gator]

BC,
After posting, I played golf in a large Friday skins game, won a a couple of skins, had a few beers,  and am now too tired to study your posts.  And tomorrow is busy.  But I will return and address your comments.

[calmissile]

BC,

I don't know you but am curious about your interest in US politics.  Your avitar indicates you are from Italy.  Are you an American living in Italy or have some other connection to the USA?

[Erwin]

 The top three issues that will have an impact on the election are the economy, Obamacare, and possibly foreign policy. Here is the breakdown:
 
The Economy:
 
Despite the creeping recovery of the economy, Obama can still pull out a win over Romney in this area although it is President Obama’s biggest, if any, weakness. President Obama rescued America's failing automotive industry, and bailed-out the country's largest financial institutions. Surely without these measures taken, most Americans would still be eating canned food and sleeping in a cardboard box. Mitt Romney, on the other hand, has an uphill battle if he wants to shake off the image of himself portrayed as a crony-capitalist because of his time at Bain Capital. The Obama camp needs to make certain that the Bain image sticks, and continue to highlight whatever minor successes the administration has had thus far with the economy.
 
Obamacare:
 
Romney cannot touch Obama on this one because of the fact that Obamacare is an inspired version of Romney’s care that he enacted in his own state as governor. And, even though Republicans are harping on the individual mandate as a tax, hoping that an image of Obama as a robber-baron tax-hiker will stick, a recent CBC/New York Times poll shows that only 37% of American favor lowering taxes and cutting spending compared to the 56% who favor raising taxes and increasing spending. There is also the poll by USAToday that shows about only 21% of people will actually vote for the candidate that shares their opinion on Obamacare. This is at a time when about half of Americans support Obamacare. Do you really think that is enough people to turn Obamacare into a nail in the presidential coffin?
 
Foreign Policy:
 
Can you hear that? That is the sound of the GOP getting Barack-slapped on foreign policy with the death of the world’s leading terrorist, Osama Bin Ladin. Add to the death of Al Qaeda's second in command, Abu Yahya al-Libi, and you have a much weaker Al Qaeda. Not to mention a successful drawdown in Iraq. If you were Romney, would you go anywhere near foreign policy issues in the debates?
 
Of course, there is no cyrstal ball to predict the outcome of any election, and I surely have my doubts, but my instincts tell me that America is not ready to get rid of Barack Obama and steer the nation back in the opposite direction just yet.