The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[mendeleyev]

Good article, although it was from early in the year.

Parts of this were a familiar then during Security Council meetings, especially Moscow's claim that there was nobody in Kyiv with legit authority to work with the Kremlin: "lack of a distinctive political body which the Russian Federation could negotiate with..."

The fact that the Ukrainian Constitution outlines a very clear path for any territorial changes is quietly disregarded. Tact that the Kremlin has known all along that Ukrainian oligarchs and citizen groups (Not the hated USA) was responsible for funding Maidan, yet have lied to the Russian people and to the world about it, unveils the moral bankruptcy of the current administration.

[Boethius]

An interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, well worth the read -


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-zbigniew-brzezinski-on-russia-and-ukraine-a-1041795.html

[JayH]

An interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, well worth the read -


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-zbigniew-brzezinski-on-russia-and-ukraine-a-1041795.html

It is another voice expressing views and conclusions that many agree on.( the forum here has said much of this for a long time now!)!!
His conclusions are ok - save for his last point-that Ukraine should agree not to join NATO.
 It should not be for Russia to dictate anything to Ukraine whatsoever-- any reason to defer to Russian desires has long gone.
If not joining NATO-or being accepted into NATO arrangements is forced on Ukraine-- then reestablishing a nuclear capacity would be urgent for Ukraine -- as well as maintaining a massive military.
Logic would dictate not doing this and incorporating Ukraine into NATO defensive arrangements   in the future would be far more desirable-from every perspective.
First-- every piece of Russian military must be removed from all Ukraine-including the Crimea .

[Boethius]

If that truly is Russia's concern (as stated by Putin), and Ukraine says fine, we won't join NATO, there is no reason to continue to destabilize Ukraine.


I don't believe that is Russia's real reason for destabilizing Ukraine, however, I don't think NATO will accept Ukraine in any event.  Making that statement would be profound, for Ukraine, and would not change its reality one bit.

[JayH]

If that truly is Russia's concern (as stated by Putin), and Ukraine says fine, we won't join NATO, there is no reason to continue to destabilize Ukraine.


I don't believe that is Russia's real reason for destabilizing Ukraine, however, I don't think NATO will accept Ukraine in any event.  Making that statement would be profound, for Ukraine, and would not change its reality one bit.

The practicalities of reaching any agreement that removes Russia from Ukraine mean that everything is negotiable   as such-- I would agree today to not join NATO if it meant the removal of Russians from ALL of Ukraine-- and the end of attempts to destabilise Ukraine.

The reality is this-- any of that will only happen by forcing the Russians out . Of course-- anything signed with Russia I would treat the same way as Russia has in respecting treaties and agreements.

[Muzh]

The practicalities of reaching any agreement that removes Russia from Ukraine mean that everything is negotiable   as such-- I would agree today to not join NATO if it meant the removal of Russians from ALL of Ukraine-- and the end of attempts to destabilise Ukraine.

The reality is this-- any of that will only happen by forcing the Russians out . Of course-- anything signed with Russia I would treat the same way as Russia has in respecting treaties and agreements.

So basically you want the war to keep going and more people killed.

[JayH]

So basically you want the war to keep going and more people killed.

Ignoring you attempt at imitation of FT( in attributing something or a conclusion not being said) and dealing with the bigger picture of your question-it is not an available option to avoid deaths.
Chances are it is now or never to break the Russian shackles of modern history-to have come this far and then be forced to defend themselves it is not as if they can exactly just pack up and go home!
  Any withdrawal will see further encroachment by Russia into Ukraine--it is clear enough now that Putin will destroy Ukraine rather than see it a successful democracy and it leaves Ukrainians with no choice but to fight.

[Muzh]

Ignoring you attempt at imitation of FT( in attributing something or a conclusion not being said) and dealing with the bigger picture of your question-it is not an available option to avoid deaths.
Chances are it is now or never to break the Russian shackles of modern history-to have come this far and then be forced to defend themselves it is not as if they can exactly just pack up and go home!
  Any withdrawal will see further encroachment by Russia into Ukraine--it is clear enough now that Putin will destroy Ukraine rather than see it a successful democracy and it leaves Ukrainians with no choice but to fight.

Jay, you really have no fcuking clue about what you are talking about, don't you?

[JayH]

Jay, you really have no fcuking clue about what you are talking about, don't you?

Given that comment is coming from you--the glasshouse you inhabit ought to know better by now.
Would you like to attempt  to explain what you object to?Or is that too hard for you?

It is long overdue that you grow up with your abusive posts-not just to me-- but to any comment that you choose to abuse.

[JayH]

So basically you want the war to keep going and more people killed.

Ok--so let us deal with inane comment itself and your attempt to attribute something not said.

Where exactly did I say that?

Given that my comment you quoted said virtually the opposite-- how does your brain reach such a distorted conclusion from my comments?

[Muzh]

Given that comment is coming from you--the glasshouse you inhabit ought to know better by now.
Would you like to attempt  to explain what you object to?Or is that too hard for you?

It is long overdue that you grow up with your abusive posts-not just to me-- but to any comment that you choose to abuse.

Okay Junior. Or is it Jay Jay?


How do you propose you would "expel" all Russians from Ukraine?


BTW, I'm sorry you have such a fragile ego. If it gets too hot, then, by all means get out of the kitchen. 

[JayH]

How do you propose you would "expel" all Russians from Ukraine?

For the minute -let us deal with what you said--and your response here--

So basically you want the war to keep going and more people killed.

Then this-

Jay,

And now your response --is this to support your earlier comments?
"How do you propose you would "expel" all Russians from Ukraine?"

So-- really-- you have no clue or idea how you reached such a conclusion from what I said--  or perhaps  I can say it another way for you--"you really have no fcuking clue about what you are talking about, don't you?"

[Muzh]

Heh, running in circles aren't you?


One more time, how do you propose to expel all Russians from Ukraine?


You know, a simple answer, like "exterminate them all," or "dump them in the Black Sea," or nuke Russia."


C'mon, a simple answer will suffice.


It is not that difficult for a man who is so prolific here.

[fathertime]

It is long overdue that you grow up with your abusive posts-not just to me-- but to any comment that you choose to abuse.

...especially yours...
 hypocrite.  [size=78%] [/size]


Fathertime!   

[JayH]

Heh, running in circles aren't you?


One more time, how do you propose to expel all Russians from Ukraine?


You know, a simple answer, like "exterminate them all," or "dump them in the Black Sea," or nuke Russia."


C'mon, a simple answer will suffice.


It is not that difficult for a man who is so prolific here.

Let me show your question the respect that you have failed to give mine--

Implicit in my answer above( and confining my answer to only what was said above)-- and joing the dots just for you--

The practicalities of reaching any agreement that removes Russia from Ukraine mean that everything is negotiable   as such-- I would agree today to not join NATO if it meant the removal of Russians from ALL of Ukraine-- and the end of attempts to destabilise Ukraine.
.

The highlighted part is the key to my comment--it means conceding something to get peace-- Nothing to do with sacrificing lives as you attempt to attribute my words to mean.
In fact--it is diametrically opposed to your conclusion-  ie--negotiate to avoid deaths.

So really Muzh--stick to playing with the FT's and Lt's of this world.

[JayH]

One more time, how do you propose to expel all Russians from Ukraine?

I have commented many times previously--how I would and what is happening are different questions.
My attitude is a matter of record on the forum.

[Muzh]

I have commented many times previously--how I would and what is happening are different questions.
My attitude is a matter of record on the forum.

Heh, your red highlighter is running out of ink.


Still, it hasn't changed anything nor answered my question.


Fine, let me help you.


...if it meant the removal of Russians from all Ukraine.


If Ukraine voted to never join NATO, how would you remove Russians from all of Ukraine?


Like a deportation program?


Or a final solution?


A simple answer would suffice.


Notice that I'm NOT hurling insults. Just asking for your expertise. 

[JayH]

Heh, your red highlighter is running out of ink.


Still, it hasn't changed anything nor answered my question.


Fine, let me help you.


...if it meant the removal of Russians from all Ukraine.


If Ukraine voted to never join NATO, how would you remove Russians from all of Ukraine?


Like a deportation program?


Or a final solution?


A simple answer would suffice.


Notice that I'm NOT hurling insults. Just asking for your expertise. 

Ahh-- I see your problem--you need each dot joined !

If--If- IF-that is-- if-- PART OF THE AGREEMENT WAS NOT JOINING NATO  was going to rid Ukraine of Russians-then I would agree.That is what I said above-- maybe you read it another way?

As for how to get them out other than for them to voluntarily agree to leave  as part of a settlement-- that is another topic- and I have answered that question numerous times previously- and my comments still apply.
To be clear- I would not agree to any permanent settlement that did not recognise Ukrainian sovereignty over it's borders  and/or diluted Ukraine in any way. I make that comment in the context of the concept of conceding territory in the east-and/or Crimea in the hope that it will appease Putin's Russia and leave Ukraine in peace. My view-anything less than restoration of Ukrainian borders will not be a lasting peace-- but a postponement of Russian ambitions.

More dots to join- when I used the word Russia and Russians--I mean Russian military- maybe you misunderstood that?

[Muzh]

Ahh-- I see your problem--you need each dot joined !

If--If- IF-that is-- if-- PART OF THE AGREEMENT WAS NOT JOINING NATO  was going to rid Ukraine of Russians-then I would agree.That is what I said above-- maybe you read it another way?

As for how to get them out other than for them to voluntarily agree to leave  as part of a settlement-- that is another topic- and I have answered that question numerous times previously- and my comments still apply.
To be clear- I would not agree to any permanent settlement that did not recognise Ukrainian sovereignty over it's borders  and/or diluted Ukraine in any way. I make that comment in the context of the concept of conceding territory in the east-and/or Crimea in the hope that it will appease Putin's Russia and leave Ukraine in peace. My view-anything less than restoration of Ukrainian borders will not be a lasting peace-- but a postponement of Russian ambitions.

More dots to join- when I used the word Russia and Russians--I mean Russian military- maybe you misunderstood that?

Didn't missed a beat.


First, you can have the right to agree with anything regarding a permanent settlement WHEN you live in Ukraine as a Ukrainian citizen or tied to it by marriage and living there.


NOW, you can WISH for anything regarding a permanent settlement in Ukraine all you want.


Unless you are a spook with orders to carry.


Are the dots connected for you now?

[fathertime]

  I make that comment in the context of the concept of conceding territory in the east-and/or Crimea in the hope that it will appease Putin's Russia and leave Ukraine in peace.

Hmmmmmm.....when I was speaking along the same lines a year ago, YOU had a freaking cow and wanted to continue the fight until the last Ukrainian was dead. 


This sort of end result wasn't that unpredictable, negotiating a settlement has been within reach...imo


Fathertime! 

[Muzh]

Hmmmmmm.....when I was speaking along the same lines a year ago, YOU had a freaking cow and wanted to continue the fight until the last Ukrainian was dead. 


This sort of end result wasn't that unpredictable, negotiating a settlement has been within reach...imo


Fathertime!

My, how time flies. 

[Boethius]

More evidence that the useful idiots were duped.  I don't anticipate they will acknowledge this.

A year after the war started in southeastern Ukraine, the Russian military has largely abandoned efforts to disguise its activities along the border with Ukraine. The tiny village of Golovinka, an hour or so’s drive off the main highway on rutted dirt roads, has been transformed lately into a hive of military activity. The once-quiet military base nearby, Kuzminka, is teeming with soldiers and heavy weapons.

Last year, the Russian Defense Ministry described the military buildup along the border as a military exercise, and it periodically announced pullbacks after exercises were completed. However, the large army presence, which cannot easily be disguised, seems now to have become permanent.

Ukrainian and Western governments say Kuzminka is a staging ground for Russian soldiers and weapons headed into the war zone in southeastern Ukraine, where Kiev says 9,000 Russian soldiers are now stationed for a possible attack this summer on the city of Mariupol.

The United States has released satellite images of self-propelled howitzers on one side of the border, and then on the other, and European monitors say they see nightly evidence of heavy weapons streaming into southeastern Ukraine from Russia.

Why the Russian Army was stockpiling ammunition near the Ukrainian border was not a question the Kremlin or local commanders wished to address. Russia denies sending either men or weapons into Ukraine, claiming that any Russians there are private citizens volunteering to fight in the war.

On this occasion, the army’s presence became so pronounced it could be seen from outer space.

An enormous smoke plume rose over the steppe, according to a video posted online. Villagers piled children into cars and sped away. At the base, commanders ordered the thousands of soldiers garrisoned there to just run, saying, “We will find you later,” according to Viktoria Makarenko, a reporter with Novaya Gazeta who covered the blast.

“They thought the whole thing would blow,” Ms. Makarenko said of the army’s decision not to try to keep the blast on April 28 a secret. “It would be visible from space, so there was nothing to hide. They wanted to get the people out.”

In the steppe villages around here, known by their Cossack name stanitsy, residents are learning to live with the military presence, not to speak of the constant rumble of military convoys down side roads near the border.

Arrests are up for drunkenness and fighting in the border villages. There have even been reports of rocket-propelled grenades fired in bars. Reported crime in the Rostov region adjacent to Ukraine’s separatist zones is up 24 percent this year, local news media has reported, in a sign of blowback inside Russia from the chaos next door. . .
 
Local residents say tens of thousands of soldiers are now garrisoned at Kuzminka, sleeping in tents. For the village, their presence has its upsides, too.

A cluster of young soldiers, lithe and fit and shirtless in the summer afternoon, loitered beside a recently opened grilled chicken shack called Brotherly.

The owner, Vladimir, who would not give his last name owing to the sensitivity of discussing the soldiers in the village, said he opened a month ago and attributed his success selling rotisserie broiled birds marinated in mayonnaise and paprika to the first rule of real estate: location, location, location.

Brotherly opened beside the path through the fields that soldiers traverse to reach the village. In just a few minutes on a recent visit, a dozen or so soldiers with Mongolian features typical of some Siberian ethnic groups walked past. Soldiers with Mongolian features have also been seen fighting on the rebel side in eastern Ukraine. In typical times, few, if any, Mongolians are seen on either side of this border.

The border, until last summer patrolled by Ukrainian border guards, is porous, not only allowing Russian military convoys to cross without interference, but opening the way to large-scale smuggling of coal, weapons and stolen cars. As many as a dozen coal trucks cross the border here a day, said Paul Picard, a French diplomat who heads the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe’s monitoring mission in the area.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/20/world/europe/russian-town-near-ukraine-once-quiet-now-buzzes-with-military-activity.html?_r=4

[Brasscasing]

...Meanwhile, in other news it looks like the Russians are employing their own GPS system to navigate the back roads of Ukraine again...

Ukraine Detains Alleged Russian Officer In East

..."Ukraine's border-guards service says it has detained a Russian officer who was driving in a military truck packed with ammunition in the country's war-torn east.

 The service said in a statement that the man acknowledged he was a Russian major in a rocket-artillery unit.

 "He had no documents," said border guards spokesman Oleksandr Tomchyshyn. "He is responsible for ammunition supply. He said that while delivering the ammunition they had got lost."...

..."The border-guards service said it found nearly 200 cases containing grenades and ammunition, including rocket-propelled shells, in the truck.

 The vehicle was stopped about 45 kilometers southwest of Donetsk, the largest city in eastern Ukraine under rebel control.

 It was reportedly driving from the direction of Olenivka, a town also held by the separatists, and halted only after Ukrainian border guards fired warning shots.

 "We can assume that they took a wrong direction while driving, got lost and came on our checkpoint," military spokesman Oleksandr Motuzyanuk told journalists.

 There was no immediate comment from the Russian military."...



http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-detains-alleged-russian-officer-truck-weapons/27153552.html

...'Wrong Way' Boris is probably kicking his a$$ he didn't take that left turn at Krasnyi Luch.

Brass

[2tallbill]

...'Wrong Way' Boris is probably kicking his a$$ he didn't take that left turn at Krasnyi Luch.

Brass

[Boethius]

Translation of an interview on Ukrainian television with a Russian political analyst


http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/07/22/putin-intends-to-destroy-ukraine-from-within-russian-analyst/

From the interview -

Here this is completely a question of time: who will die first. Perhaps the game of delaying will lead to a situation where Kremlin will be depleting its strategic resources in the confrontation with the West?]


I agree that time is on the side of Ukraine. Because Putin has already suffered several major strategic, political, and psychological defeats. First, the concept of the “Russian World” that he proclaimed in his Crimean speech, which was an exact copy of Hitler’s speech before the Reichstag after the occupation of Sudetenland. This is the concept of the separated people, the gathering of ancestral lands, and the protection of compatriots. Well, this concept has failed. It was based on the assumption that the West would be intimidated but would not fight back. Then came Novorossiya. In April-May Putin really wanted to raise the bar and send commandos to 10-15 oblasts of Ukraine. This fell through as well. What remains is the Luhandonia concept. Moscow understands that, despite the demonstrative build-up of military forces, everyone understands that direct military escalation — advancing on Mariupol or creating a corridor to the Crimean isthmus — will provoke a very tough Western reaction. This has been clearly stated by the Europeans. Therefore, there is the remaining chance to politically and psychologically outmaneuver them over the interpretation of the Minsk agreements. . .