Coronavirus, how are you preparing for it and how it is affecting you so far?

[Boethius]

BTW hydroxychloroquine has been very successful in combating covid. You should research the front line doctors using it. Do you not question why it isn't included in the WHO and CDC protocol for treating covid? Do you not question why the Chinese have been manufacturing remdesivir since March? You should

Can you please point me to these success stories about hydroxychloroquine?  What I've read is mixed, and in some cases, it's caused death in patients.  BTW, I mean studies, not anecdotal evidence.  From all I've read, hydroxychloroquine kills COVID-19 in lab studies, but lab studies are usually different from effects on the human body, so those results can't be relied on.  There was the first promising French study (which is the one Trump tweeted about), but that study has now been widely criticized for flaws.  It failed to meet peer review standards.  Forty two patients were in the study.  Sixteen of them were control patients, 26 received hydroxychloroquine.  Of those 26, six dropped out of the study, and four did not recover at all.  One of those four died.  Those four patients were excluded from the results of the study.

The American College of Physicians has recommended against using hydroxychloroquine, as it has known harms (some COVID patients died of heart attacks after hydroxychloroquine treatments), and at this time, no known benefits.

So, from what I've read, the jury is still out.  If you've got additional information, I'd like to "hear" it.

What I've read about remdesivir is that it speeds up recovery time by about 30%.  So, it's not a cure.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[GQBlues]

Can you please point me to these success stories about hydroxychloroquine?

http://aapsonline.org/hcq-90-percent-chance/

http://drive.google.com/file/d/1w6p_HqRXCrW0_wYNK7m_zpQLbBVYcvVU/view

http://docs.google.com/document/d/1545C_dJWMIAgqeLEsfo2U8Kq5WprDuARXrJl6N1aDjY/edit

[SteveInBoston]

http://aapsonline.org/hcq-90-percent-chance/

http://drive.google.com/file/d/1w6p_HqRXCrW0_wYNK7m_zpQLbBVYcvVU/view

http://docs.google.com/document/d/1545C_dJWMIAgqeLEsfo2U8Kq5WprDuARXrJl6N1aDjY/edit

Let's see:  AAPS, a politically conservative non profit group opposed to the affordable care act.  Their conclusion is that about 90% of about 2000 patients treated with CQ and HCQ improved recovered.  However the data they reference are collection of cases, mostly in France, of patients being treated with HCQ, of which 91% or so recovered.  No actual comparative study, like 2000 patients treated with HCQ vs 2000 treated with aspirin.  Just that about 90% of people with Covid-19 and treated with HCQ recovered.  I thought that is around the same recovery rate, or below?  US covid 19 CFR is 6%... 94% recovery.

The google drive files is, just like the reference data for the AAPS article, speaks of various places that treated X amount of patients with HCQ and Y patients recovered, Z patients died.   Just data collection - no actual study.  At least HCQ doesn't kill more patients than they normally would have died from covid 19.

[Faux Pas]

The American College of Physicians has recommended against using hydroxychloroquine, as it has known harms (some COVID patients died of heart attacks after hydroxychloroquine treatments), and at this time, no known benefits.

Boe you should Google more. Hydroxychlorquine has been used for 60 years. There are a number of doctors on the front lines swearing about it's success in treating covid. More importantly so are the patients. After 60 years that's a pretty good study right there, dont'cha think?

So, from what I've read, the jury is still out.  If you've got additional information, I'd like to "hear" it.

The jury is not out. The jury was never sent in on hydroxychloroquine because it doesn't fit the narrative and perhaps it could shine some light on the virus itself. Highly contagious indeed but not near the monster virus that it is being projected. Maybe because it was suggested by Trump or maybe because someone else wants you living in fear?
 

What I've read about remdesivir is that it speeds up recovery time by about 30%.  So, it's not a cure.

I don't know if remdesivir is better, more helpful or less helpful. I would suggest you follow the money here. Remdesivir is $1000 a dose and hydroxychloroquine is $15 bucks total

There are many front line doctors on youtube telling their stories. There is also many of those disappearing. That is not a coincidence

[GQBlues]

Let's see:  AAPS, a politically conservative non profit group opposed to the affordable care act.  Their conclusion is that about 90% of about 2000 patients treated with CQ and HCQ improved recovered.  However the data they reference are collection of cases, mostly in France, of patients being treated with HCQ, of which 91% or so recovered.  No actual comparative study, like 2000 patients treated with HCQ vs 2000 treated with aspirin.  Just that about 90% of people with Covid-19 and treated with HCQ recovered.  I thought that is around the same recovery rate, or below?  US covid 19 CFR is 6%... 94% recovery.

The google drive files is, just like the reference data for the AAPS article, speaks of various places that treated X amount of patients with HCQ and Y patients recovered, Z patients died.   Just data collection - no actual study.  At least HCQ doesn't kill more patients than they normally would have died from covid 19.

http://aapsonline.org/about-aaps/

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons – AAPS – is a non-partisan professional association of physicians in all types of practices and specialties across the country.

It's a non-partisan group of medical physicians, Steve. Where exactly did it say they are either a conservative or liberal, or any political affiliation in their website? Please point it out for me.

Are these doctors fake? Do they have an agenda, you think? If so, please provide proof.

As for their clinical citations provided in their findings, are you saying they are fabricated? I'm not sure what you're implying so please elaborate.

[Boethius]

Boe you should Google more. Hydroxychlorquine has been used for 60 years. There are a number of doctors on the front lines swearing about it's success in treating covid. More importantly so are the patients. After 60 years that's a pretty good study right there, dont'cha think?

I don't physically google.  I usually read articles which appear in my inbox daily, which is courtesy of google.  Those are the latest research studies and recommendations by academics, not news reports.


COVID-19 hasn't been around for 60 years (or at least, not in its present form), so no, I don't accept your assertion. 


Hydroxychlorquine is often fatal to diabetics or those with underlying health issues, such as heart disease.


I'm not saying it isn't a treatment, just that it isn't proven yet, and needs more study.  Scientists have recommended that.

The jury is not out. The jury was never sent in on hydroxychloroquine because it doesn't fit the narrative and perhaps it could shine some light on the virus itself.

But it is being studied in Europe and in China, where no one cares what Trump says about hydroxychloroquine, or any other potential treatment, for that matter.
 

I don't know if remdesivir is better, more helpful or less helpful. I would suggest you follow the money here. Remdesivir is $1000 a dose and hydroxychloroquine is $15 bucks total

Remdesivir is proven to shorten the length of the illness by, on average, 4 days.  The issue I would have with that is whether it lessens impacts. 


If remdesivir were an absolute cure, governments could legislate that it be made available short term at a lower price.

There are many front line doctors on youtube telling their stories. There is also many of those disappearing. That is not a coincidence

There are physicians on the front lines swearing that high doses of Vitamin C aid in COVID-19 symptoms, but that's been debunked in studies.  So, I don't think you can take what physicians state as the be all/end all in truth.  Perhaps those patients would have turned the corner without hydroxychloroquine.  Be clear, I'm not saying it isn't a treatment, just that there is no clinical proof yet.

This post was composed without the aid of google (other than the articles appearing in my "inbox" daily).

[GQBlues]

Let's see:  AAPS, a politically conservative non profit group opposed to the affordable care act.

Ahh, I now see where you got this information:

Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

Do you happen to know who authored this write-up?

[Faux Pas]

I don't physically google.  I usually read articles which appear in my inbox daily, which is courtesy of google.  Those are the latest research studies and recommendations by academics, not news reports.

Then you are only getting what is fed you?

COVID-19 hasn't been around for 60 years (or at least, not in its present form), so no, I don't accept your assertion. 

Yes, in it's present form. Hydroxychloroquine was approved for medical use in the United States in 1955. Excuse me, 65 years

Hydroxychlorquine is often fatal to diabetics or those with underlying health issues, such as heart disease.

Funny, that's the same thing as covid. Did you make that up?

I'm not saying it isn't a treatment, just that it isn't proven yet, and needs more study.  Scientists have recommended that.

Yes many scientists with some sort of skin in the game are recommending more study, more study and more study. The virus is here now. How long should we wait and study a drug that has been used for a number of illnesses and studied ad nauseum for now 65 years
 

But it is being studied in Europe and in China, where no one cares what Trump says about hydroxychloroquine, or any other potential treatment, for that matter.

They care what he says here
 

Remdesivir is proven to shorten the length of the illness by, on average, 4 days.  The issue I would have with that is whether it lessens impacts. 

Caught in the earlier stages doctors are claiming HCQ use in many patients are making them symptom free in as little as 48 hours

If remdesivir were an absolute cure, governments could legislate that it be made available short term at a lower price.

If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas. I would wager a bet that remdesivir is not a cure but the vaccine is forthcoming from the same folks who bring us remdesivir

[iloveukrayinkas]

Hello guys, I advise everybody not to believe all that the mainstream news outlets put
out about this so called pandemic.
There are good informative channels on youtube like High Impact Vlogs, High Impact Flix,
Richie from Boston and also Mag Truth which EXPOSE the reality of the virus.
How this whole pandemic  has been manipulated to strip us of our rights as citizens
and how they have trampled the constitution with new laws that they just invented.

It breaks my heart how the state went against a poor 77 old barber who said he was going
to reopen his shop because they didn't honor the promise to reopen after april the 30th.
He said he would reopen against the governor's orders and that whatever be the case,
he already has a foot on the grave and the other on a banana.

Also they shut down pastor Rodney howard-brown in florida for opening his church service
and arrested him. He also has a strong following on youtube and has been streaming almost
everyday with his information about coronavirus.
That's a good channel you can listen to as well.

Cheers guys

[calmissile]

Agree with your comments  Faux Pas.   Boe wants to wait for clinical trial results while people die.  Typical of some of the academic community.  Watched an interview of a female Texas doctor tonight that has been using hydroxychloroquine successfully on a number of patients in all stages of the disease.

Her pharmacy has refused to fill new prescriptions for the drug because the State Board of Pharmacies has decided that the off label use will not be allowed.   What a bunch of jerks.  Have seen a lot of first hand cases interviewed that claimed the drug ended the symptoms sometimes in a matter of hours.

I have a personal experience with a 'drug' that has not been recommended by US doctors yet has been used in other countries for hundreds of years.  About a year ago I was experiencing joint pain in many joints in my body.  My physician sent me to a specialist for diagnosis.  One of my fingers was in so much pain that it was preventing me from working efficiently.  He was an older guy and his exact words were "At your age all your joints are deteriorated.  You finger knuckle is 'shot'"

I asked him what options were available. I was willing to amputate if that was the only solution.  He proposed that he surgically bind the bones on both sides of the jont making it a stiff finger.  I was very lucky. I had a wellness appointment with a young gal that was a PA.  When she asked about my general health condition I told her about the pain in my finger and joints in general.

She whispered in my ear to try two 'drugs'.  One was Turmeric and the other is Glucosamine Chondroitin.  I have never believed in herbs and snake oil remedies but figured I had nothing to lose and it surely was a better choice than the bone surgery.  Within a week, I got total relief not only for the finger but the rest of the joints as well.  It's been about a year since I started taking the 'medicine' and have complete mobility in the problem finger with no pain.

You might imagine the contrast in my attitude change.  I was told that I am old and my joints are 'shot' and there is no general solution (other than dying I suppose) to a remedy that completely eliminated the symptoms.  If I had adopted Boe's opinion I should have waited for a number of clinical trials before trying these medications (maybe in my next lifetime).

It kind of funny how clinical trials fit into this story.  On the next visit to my physician I told him about the specialist/surgeons recommendation for the bone surgery and finding out that these two 'drugs' completely solved the issue.  He commented that he had read some recent studies that showed some promising results for the use of Chondroitin in joint issues.  I wonder how long it would have been before he would have recommended something that is over the counter and cheap?

Bottom line is that for generations/centuries people have discovered cures for things that were passed down to new generations without any clinical trials.  Anecdotal results have some value until there are formal studies (IMO).

[BillyB]

Trump jumped off the Hydroxychloroquine band wagon for good reason. There's never been a safe and efficient treatment created for any disease caused by a coronavirus in history. They're not just going to magically pull one out of a hat of existing drugs designed to treat something else. They can throw every drug in the world at a coronavirus. None have been approved. It's easy to find a few doctors anywhere in the world to claim a drug they used worked as a treatment on COVID-19. It's hard to find a majority. There are 1.1 million doctors in America. If less than half(500,000)  American doctors say Hydroxychloroquine works even if the rest of the world's tens of millions of doctors remain silent, I'd be thrilled. But we don't have 500,000 American doctors that say Hydroxychloroquine works for sure. Many may use the drug in an emergency but most will not say for sure it works.

In the past, Hydroxychloroquine was used on patients infected with SARS. Since no treatment has ever been found for a disease caused by coronavirus, you guys can figure out the results. I don't think Hydroxychloroquine will work on SARS-COV-2 either.

Interesting video showing how fast a virus can spread from hands and someone rubbing snot off their nose.

http://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/video-black-light-experiment-shows-virus-spread-restaurant-setting-170533397.html

[msmob]

I note the 'usual suspects' are STILL 'googling' and finding hogwash on HCQ and then wondering why it is deleted, then suggesting "conspiracy" .... 

I have a close family family member that has been prescribed HCQ for an auto-immunity issue.  The drug HAS known efficacy in THAT field... and the possible side effects are well known.   

It TOTALLY pees me off to see some folks who REALLY need the medication and benefits go without well amateur hour 'experts' regurgitate unsubstantiated BOLLOX

[Boethius]

Boe wants to wait for clinical trial results while people die. .  . Typical of some of the academic community. 

That's not what I posted.  What I posted was that, absent scientific evidence, we don't know that any of these treatments work, and to suggest they do is foolish, and potentially dangerous.


There are physicians who prescribe apricot seeds as a "natural" cure for cancer.  In the early 2000's, there was a whole industry built on such treatments at Mexican clinics, although I don't know if they're still running.  However, those treatments (laetrile is the active compound in the seeds) was clinically proven, in many trials, to have no effect on cancer cells.  But, there are still physicians, including in the US, who swear by this treatment. 


I had a client who spent tens of thousands of dollars for laetrile treatments.  He died of cancer.


The "academic community" is the community that has developed a vaccine for COVID-19 in several countries already.  If you want to put your health in the hands of physicians testing various treatments, great for you.  Just don't tout it as a cure without clinic evidence thereof.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

[Shadow]

When you look at any suggested medication, keep in mind that eating gummy bear will treat COVID-19 with 90% success.

The issue is that when tested, there is no indication that more patients survive than when eating gummy bear, in some cases even less patients survive.This is why you should be careful using any snake oil the internet tries to sell you.

[msmob]

What happens in Russia 'effects' the missus' , so I watch the news from various sources ..

This article from Meduza... the 'real Russia, today' is a collection of stories that IF they could be verified would suggest Russia has a bigger problem with death rates than can be admitted

It is in Russian, but worth translating  ...

http://meduza.io/feature/2020/05/14/prosto-zapreschayut-umirat-ot-koronavirusa

"They simply prohibit dying from coronavirus. In Russia they are fighting the COVID-19 epidemic by manipulating statistics"

Deputy Prime Minister Tatyana Golikova proudly announced that the mortality rate from COVID-19 in Russia is 7.4 times lower than the world level. ( May 11th)

"..officials .. consciously hide deaths from coronavirus - to embellish statistics in the regions"

Lots of examples of staff who do not want to be named - as they'd lose their jobs... but meanwhile the Russian First Channel suggest Belarus' numbers are 'not correct' ...

[Shadow]

What happens in Russia 'effects' the missus' , so I watch the news from various sources ..

This article from Meduza... the 'real Russia, today' is a collection of stories that IF they could be verified would suggest Russia has a bigger problem with death rates than can be admitted

It is in Russian, but worth translating  ...

http://meduza.io/feature/2020/05/14/prosto-zapreschayut-umirat-ot-koronavirusa

"They simply prohibit dying from coronavirus. In Russia they are fighting the COVID-19 epidemic by manipulating statistics"

Deputy Prime Minister Tatyana Golikova proudly announced that the mortality rate from COVID-19 in Russia is 7.4 times lower than the world level. ( May 11th)

"..officials .. consciously hide deaths from coronavirus - to embellish statistics in the regions"

Lots of examples of staff who do not want to be named - as they'd lose their jobs... but meanwhile the Russian First Channel suggest Belarus' numbers are 'not correct' ...

A statistic that constantly changes is to be questioned.
But statistics of 400-500 daily for 2 months (Ukraine) or around 900 daily for over 1 month (Belarus) seems legit...
We are watching the stats from the beginning and do not trust some countries as they report a stable amount of cases with minimal change daily.
Those countries where statistics seem reliable show variation in daily reports as well as a clear curve.


As for death rates and even number of infections, yes it will be hard to obtain correct numbers in Russia due to the fact that many people do not go to a doctor or pharmacy until nearly critical. But I am sure that is true for every country, it depends on if the doctors care to test and if tests are available for those who died.

[Shadow]

And for those who believe claims about the virus develoing the same without quarantaine, here the statistic of Sweden (known as non-quarantaine example) and Denmark (having a strict quarantaine).

[Faux Pas]

She whispered in my ear to try two 'drugs'.  One was Turmeric and the other is Glucosamine Chondroitin.  I have never believed in herbs and snake oil remedies but figured I had nothing to lose and it surely was a better choice than the bone surgery.  Within a week, I got total relief not only for the finger but the rest of the joints as well.  It's been about a year since I started taking the 'medicine' and have complete mobility in the problem finger with no pain.

It kind of funny how clinical trials fit into this story.  On the next visit to my physician I told him about the specialist/surgeons recommendation for the bone surgery and finding out that these two 'drugs' completely solved the issue.  He commented that he had read some recent studies that showed some promising results for the use of Chondroitin in joint issues.  I wonder how long it would have been before he would have recommended something that is over the counter and cheap?

Bottom line is that for generations/centuries people have discovered cures for things that were passed down to new generations without any clinical trials.  Anecdotal results have some value until there are formal studies (IMO).

Cal,
It's a good thing you finally found it. I think that's a herbalist treatment for gout too if I'm not mistaken. Don't be too hard on Boe, I think we've all been programmed to believe if something hasn't been gubmint stamped and approved (big pharma lobby) it can't possibly work or be a solution. My wife is herbalist for just about everything and she drove my interest in natural remedies. Fact is, there is a plethora of natural treatments that work and available all around us if you have the knowledge with herbs, plants, trees etc for the minor to very serious ailments most doctors just won't consider. But, I'm rambling.

Bottom line HCQ is working as a cocktail with some other drugs. Doesn't work in all cases? Apparently not, but it works in many and that is enough of a reason to make it available. The doctor in Texas you mention says for most of her patients they are symptom free in as little as 24-48 hours. I'm convinced the reason it isn't being easily made available is big pharma/cabal is pushing the high dollar treatment which IS what they do and have done to the American public for over 100 years

[Faux Pas]

When you look at any suggested medication, keep in mind that eating gummy bear will treat COVID-19 with 90% success.

The issue is that when tested, there is no indication that more patients survive than when eating gummy bear, in some cases even less patients survive.This is why you should be careful using any snake oil the internet tries to sell you.

Gummy bears could be used in a covid or most any study and be a "proven" successful  treatment. For covid a study of gummy bears it would have a 98% success rate because, that is the recover rate now, right? Gummy bears however won't stop the symptoms or the spread. When we discover something that does, there should be no restraints for those who choose to use it IMO

[Gator]

HCQ for an auto-immunity issue.  The drug HAS known efficacy in THAT field... and the possible side effects are well known...

COVID-19 is an issue about hyper response of the immune sysytem, thus the interest in HCQ. 

There is ample anecdotal evidence from HCQ's use under doctors' supervision on COVID-19 patients to suggest it is a possible therapy.  Its use seems to produce better results when used early in the infection and combined with other medications.  We await the results of clinical trials. 

....  some folks who REALLY need the medication and benefits go without 

I have heard news of some lupus  cases not being able to obtain medication.  That should not happen.  I assert that has happened more from mismanagement than hype about being a possible therapy for 'rona.

[BillyB]

 Hydroxychloroquine alone or mixed with other drugs may have helped some people but it also can hurt possibly more people than it helps. When somebody is on the edge of living and dying, the side effects of drugs can push them to die.

Hydroxychloroquine and it's relatives are used to treat people with Lupus. People with lupus have immune systems that attack their healthy living tissue. One problem with people who have COVID-19 is that their immune system goes into overdrive and attack not only the virus but healthy living tissue. Hydroxychloroquine would help prevent that so in other words, it's not doing much if anything against the virus but it's suppressing the immune system. So if a doctor gave  Hydroxychloroquine to a patient who's immune system went into overdrive against COVID-19 they may find the patient benefits but if a doctor gives  Hydroxychloroquine to a person who's immune system is adequately fighting COVID-19, the doctor may help COVID-19 win. People who can battle COVID-19 in their homes are not going to ever get prescribed  Hydroxychloroquine because it would probably hurt you more than help like preliminary studies have shown. I believe Hydroxychloroquine may help a few people under certain circumstances but will hurt more people than it helps.

[GQBlues]

Hydroxychloroquine alone or mixed with other drugs may have helped some people but it also can hurt possibly more people than it helps. When somebody is on the edge of living and dying, the side effects of drugs can push them to die.

Hydroxychloroquine and it's relatives are used to treat people with Lupus. People with lupus have immune systems that attack their healthy living tissue. One problem with people who have COVID-19 is that their immune system goes into overdrive and attack not only the virus but healthy living tissue. Hydroxychloroquine would help prevent that so in other words, it's not doing much if anything against the virus but it's suppressing the immune system. So if a doctor gave  Hydroxychloroquine to a patient who's immune system went into overdrive against COVID-19 they may find the patient benefits but if a doctor gives  Hydroxychloroquine to a person who's immune system is adequately fighting COVID-19, the doctor may help COVID-19 win. People who can battle COVID-19 in their homes are not going to ever get prescribed  Hydroxychloroquine because it would probably hurt you more than help like preliminary studies have shown. I believe Hydroxychloroquine may help a few people under certain circumstances but will hurt more people than it helps.

BillyB-

If they're all dying anyway, why not save a few or even one?

If you get infected with the virus, are you telling me if HCQ is available that could possibly help you, and with people around you were saved and are swearing by the drug; are you saying you're not going to take it because of what you read in the internet?

[BillyB]

If you get infected with the virus, are you telling me if HCQ is available that could possibly help you, and with people around you were saved and are swearing by the drug; are you saying you're not going to take it because of what you read in the internet?

Knowing what I know and if I wasn't in a coma and didn't have a tube entering my throat at the neck and I could still talk, I would ask the doctor if I'm dying because of COVID-19 or are my antibodies killing my living tissue. If he/she can't answer the question, I probably wouldn't recommend anything. I might tell the doctor to do what he/she thinks best knowing doctors do make mistakes. Last month HCQ was the big thing. This month it's remdesivir. Just because government or a journalist is promoting a doctor or scientist saying HCQ is great and man made global warming is real, I'm not going to jump on the band wagon on everything I read.

I understand people want hope. The people in charge need to deliver hope even if there isn't something real to deliver. If this crisis lasts 5+ years, you will see positive news every month they found a possible new treatment and they are close to a vaccine to give people hope. When we took our first steps, we didn't walk perfect. The first ever treatment and vaccine for a coronavirus isn't going to be perfect. When and IF a vaccine is found, I hope it doesn't F us up 10 years down the road. Rushing things increases risks

[GQBlues]

...She whispered in my ear to try two 'drugs'.  One was Turmeric and the other is Glucosamine Chondroitin.

Oh man, Glucosamine is amazing! All those years of playing basketball, martial arts, surfing and skiing - gotta tell you I'm beginning to acknowledge I actually have 'joints', LOL. It's like WD-40 on my rusty joints these days.

I'll vouch for Turmeric, too.

Costco sells Glucosamine in those large plastic bottles. very cheap too. You'll never have a doctor prescribing you to take glucosamine for joint pains.

As for HCQ and the 'clinical trial' hoopla. Sheeesh! The virus' assault has only been around a month and half!!! If it had been administered to someone, ONE, and that person believes the drug saved him/her - does that make that person's experience irrelevant?

[GQBlues]

Knowing what I know and if I wasn't in a coma and didn't have a tube entering my throat at the neck and I could still talk, I would ask the doctor if I'm dying because of COVID-19 or are my antibodies killing my living tissue. If he/she can't answer the question, I probably wouldn't recommend anything. I might tell the doctor to do what he/she thinks best knowing doctors do make mistakes. Last month HCQ was the big thing. This month it's remdesivir. Just because government or a journalist is promoting a doctor or scientist saying HCQ is great and man made global warming is real, I'm not going to jump on the band wagon on everything I read.

It was a yes or no question, BillyB. Leaving it up to the doctor is not really standing up to your conviction. Forget yourself...if it was someone very dear to you that's in that situation (let's hope this never happens)...would you not try and administer the drug in case it actually works?