Prenup agreement with a Russian women....advise/help/referral

[Maybelucky]

First I want to acknowledge that this section is for "married" people, however, I feel my questions can be helped with people in this group the best.  So if the moderator feels that I am in violation of the rules.  I apologize and please feel free to delete my post.

I need help/advise with Prenup agreement with a Russian.

I met a Russian woman (38 yrs old, never been married, no kids).  We have been talk on Whatsupp for about 8 months and I just return from a trip to Russia meeting her (1st time) and spending about a month with her.  She is truly a very nice and kind woman who has good moral values.  We really like each other and we are very compatible and get along very well.  I am 51 yrs old, never married and no kids.  We have been talking about having children (we both want this) and getting married.  I am 99% sure she is not after money or green card.  She has never ask me for money and even help pay expenses while I was with her in Russian.  She is a high school teacher but works very hard and she has some savings in the bank account with I was impressed with her work ethics.  She is okay with us live in Russia, as long as I am living with her.  I am semi-retired from my own business, so I am able to live in Russia for long period of time.  My financial status in the U.S. is fairly well set, my net worth is couple million with a yearly investment income of about $200,000.  She does not now my finances and has never ask me.  I believe she is just looking for a simple, stable family life with me, which is what I want also.  However, I do want to have a prenup agreement with her.  My questions are:

1.  Should I have the prenup draft by a Russian lawyer or American Lawyer?  I assume I will have the agreement translated in both language.

2.  Does anyone have personal experience or advise what would be a fair prenup agreement to address if in case we are getting divorce, a fair spouse payment to her? Should it be base on length of the marriage? and How much or what payment scale?

3.  When is the best time to discuss the prenup agreement with her?

4.  Does anyone can recommend a good ethical family lawyer either in U.S. or Russia that you have personally experience with?

5.  Would a prenup agreement drafted by a Russia lawyer signed in Russia can be held up in U.S. courts?

6.  Any other advise that I should be aware of?

Thank you all very much in advance.

M.

[Faux Pas]

Maybe,
Sounds like you met a nice sincere lady, why the rush to get married? With your wealth, you and she need a lawyer in the U.S. and you should get married and sign the prenup here, IMHO

[Boethius]

You need to have a prenup drafted in the state you live in.  She needs independent legal counsel, and the prenup needs to be translated for her.   Ideally, it should be translated in writing, and when she meets with her lawyer, an independent interpreter should be with her as well.

Question 2 should be answered by your lawyer.  You have probably dealt with other lawyers.  Ask one of them for a recommendation for the top family law lawyers in your area.  The lawyer you choose can suggest an independent lawyer for the lady.  It's best to get 3 names, and let her choose one.


It's best to discuss it early, so that there is no pressure to sign it on the steps of the "church".  That can be viewed as undue duress.

[JayH]

Re Pre-nup itself--- regardless of where you do it  you would need to make 200% certain that she has independent legal advice with accredited interpreters. All advisers need their accreditation confirmed independently and documented.
That can only help at any later time-the devil is in the detail-or lack of detail  if it is ever needed.
My view-- a pre-nup needs to be very fair-she is giving up her life,family,friends,work etc etc etc
There is quite a lot of discussion on pre-nups on forum-search for it.

            The advise posted above is all good-- and I want to touch on a couple of points.
You have the ability to spend more time with her before committing - so you can make more visits. A month was a great starter length-but at the least she should come to US to see your life/lifestyle.In the meantime-- visit again- a week/10 days is good.
            One of the major points that worries me is about guys with a short exposure making a life decision.It is doubtful if a marriage decision would be made locally after a month- so why let the pressure of distance create a rush?
            Become a couple-- for certain-- but get to know each other better and in different circumstances. You are fortunate that you do not feel a financial pressure to make a quick premature decision-use that to hasten slowly!!
         
             On pre-nup discussion--this has a huge potential for misunderstanding.It can have extended affect on the whole relationship. Even if she speaks good english-- does not mean she understands the nuances of english.

[Gator]

Maybelucky,

Welcome!   I hope you do find luck, yet it is best to make your own luck.

Sounds like you have found a fine woman.  Be nice to her, please. 

Ideally, she would travel to the US and spend time with you.  Not only would she how you live and meet your friends, you could use this time to draft and execute a prenup. 

To start drafting a prenup, you should ask your attorney for the names of three attorneys who specialize in family law, preferably those who pursue collaborative divorces.  Your lady would choose one, and will likely go with a female attorney.  Her attorney should find a Russian speaking attorney in the US (there are many) who would assist.  An interpreter is essential as well.  The process could take a few months because your lady will be unfamiliar with US laws and she needs to understand everything.   If a judge believes she did not understand what she signed,  the prenup could be voided.. 

Terms.  I suggest lump sum payments with amounts graduated with length of marriage.   If filing for a divorce in first year of marriage, I suggest a lump sum payment of $30,000.  If a divorce between the second and fifth year, consider $60,000.  Etc. 

Common children change everything.   I do not know how custody is addressed in a prenup.  I assume 50-50.   You would want the mother of your children to live securely, especially considering your children will spend half if not more of their time with her.  So you may provide for alimony instead of a lump sum payment.  You also need to pay for child support.  Your prenup could adopt your state's guidelines for child support (the calculated amount depends upon age of child, your income, etc.).  You want your children educated, so you need to provide for that.  Simultaneously, you need to develop an estate plan to guarantee your widow and children will live securely.   At your age, you may want to consider life insurance too.

Suddenly, two million is not so much.  Maybe you need to rethink retirement.  Are you still reading?  Do not rethink marriage, especially if your relationship is solid.  We are hardwired to live as couples. 

I have an option to consider.  The two of you could marry in Russia and reside there.  For that option, you would execute a marriage contract (same as a prenup) with Russian attorneys only.  Russian law requires you to pay her 25% of your income.  Over time, you determine if you want and can have children.   Maybe you will like living in Russia.  If not, you could move to the US and use the Russian marriage contract as a beginning negotiation point for an American prenup. 

The time in Russia will reveal the depth of your feelings for each other.  You may decide to discard the concept of a prenup when you move to the US.    If a short marriage and no children, the court will not award her much.  However, if a longer marriage and she wants out because you can no longer cut the mustard, you should have a prenup.  It can at least be structured to speed the proceedings. 

Have you mentioned a prenup to her?  When you do, use the term "marriage contract."  May your conversations and deliberations find harmony. 

[ML]

Simple.

Live in Russia with her.

Don't get married.

[Maybelucky]

My sincere thanks for all of you who replied and all with excellent advise.  I am a newbie, just registered today and this is my first post.  I am not sure how to reply to individual post yet.  Again, Thank you all for the quick reply. 

To "Gator", I really appreciate you detailed and thoughtful reply.  If I can give you and others more facts.  First, of course I will treat and take care of her.  At my age, I have been around the corners few times and I fully aware that a good woman are hard to find. This is why I am willing to take a chance with her for marriage and children.  We both want to have children very much.  She tells me it's her dream to have children.  I am willing to fully support the kids, including college funds.  Luckily I have been prepared for this since I was in my 30's,  I do have a 5 million  whole life insurance policy with current cash value of over million dollar.  So if I die she and the kids will be okay financially, especially with life insurance and plus my other assets that are worth few million more.  Personally, money was never important to me, I truly feel money was never really important to her.  Yes, I do feel lucky that I found a good woman here.  Last month she applied for U.S tourist visa, the Moscow consulate rejected her visa application at the face to face interview.  So she can't come to U.S., unless I apply for her finacee visa, but I need to do the prenup first before apply for the fiancee visa.  Otherwise, the court can say that she was under duress to sign the prenup or face return to Russia in 90 days.  I understand that I need to provide her own independent lawyer and translator if she is signing a prenup agreement in U.S.  But she is not here in the U.S.  We did talked about possibility of not living in the U.S.  We both were thinking maybe establish a home in St. Petersburg.  I would have to travel between Russia and U.S.  I feel she is willing to live any country as long as I am with her.  Personally I kinda like the idea of have the children raised in Russia at early age, and then maybe go to a U.S University or Western European country university.  It will be tough for me living in Russia since i don't speak any Russia (too old to learn a new language).  If we do live in Russia, Shall I have her sign a "marriage contract" in Russia prepared by a Russian lawyer?  Does anyone know or have any experience how does Russian court interpret the "marriage contract"?  She wants our children to have U.S. and Russian citizenship (duel passports).  Yes, she's talking about 2 kids.....Has anyone here had a prenup agreement with your FSU wife?  How did you do it and how did she react to it?  I was also thinking just have kids and not get legally married yet and live in Russian or another country in the beginning and see how thing progress, but I haven't present the idea to her yet?.... Not many countries she can go with a Russian passport!!!!

[fathertime]

Interesting situation you have.  Given her age, getting to it with children has to be near the top in terms of priorities.  Maybe, holding off on the marriage aspect is a good idea for you.  With millions potentially at stake, another trip is probably worth doing...and relatively soon. 


I think if it were me, I'd enjoy another period of time with her, and towards the end of the time together bring up a bit about you finances and discuss your intentions regarding a prenup.  It sounds like you have lots of free time and freedom nowadays, so using it on this lady seems like the right things to do for the moment.  Personally, even though the lady appears to be the genuine article at this early juncture, I  wouldn't want to put a lifetime's worth of money at risk until a little more together time had already happened.  Your idea about a neutral 3rd country seems legit, although that would require her to pick up and leave her established life, so it would be a very big deal for her.   I'd discuss and acknowledge that fact with her, and although people often insist on keeping money out of relationships, I'd consider even telling her if things didn't work out for whatever reason, you would help her re-establish her life financially upon her return IF she needed/wanted it, and then of course follow though it comes to pass. 


Fathertime! 

[Anotherkiwi]

Firstly,    I'm glad that the first few posts have contained some pearls of wisdom!

To "Gator", I really appreciate you detailed and thoughtful reply.  If I can give you and others more facts.  First, of course I will treat and take care of her.  At my age, I have been around the corners few times and I fully aware that a good woman are hard to find. This is why I am willing to take a chance with her for marriage and children.  We both want to have children very much.  She tells me it's her dream to have children.  I am willing to fully support the kids, including college funds.  Luckily I have been prepared for this since I was in my 30's,  I do have a 5 million  whole life insurance policy with current cash value of over million dollar.  So if I die she and the kids will be okay financially, especially with life insurance and plus my other assets that are worth few million more.  Personally, money was never important to me, I truly feel money was never really important to her.

Not trying to be a wet blanket here, but why are you going on about your wealth and assets here if money is no object, especially if this woman doesn't know any of it?  For all you know, she may actually be a member of this forum (stranger things have happened, believe me!).  Instead of posting in so much detail, you could quite simply have posted that you're comfortably off, with enough money to easily cover any initial expenses.  Of course, asking for information about a pre-nup implies a bit more wealth but, if I remember correctly, there are several members here who have them.

Yes, I do feel lucky that I found a good woman here.  Last month she applied for U.S tourist visa, the Moscow consulate rejected her visa application at the face to face interview.  So she can't come to U.S., unless I apply for her finacee visa, but I need to do the prenup first before apply for the fiancee visa.

Whoa there!  Settle down - you're still nowhere near getting to the "married" stage, so you shouldn't really be thinking about a fiancée visa just yet.  It's a shame that her request for a tourist visa was denied, but there's no need to panic.

We did talked about possibility of not living in the U.S.  We both were thinking maybe establish a home in St. Petersburg.  I would have to travel between Russia and U.S.

Sounds reasonable - there are time limitations on your stay(s) until such time as you are eligible to apply for permanent residency.

I feel she is willing to live any country as long as I am with her.  Personally I kinda like the idea of have the children raised in Russia at early age, and then maybe go to a U.S University or Western European country university.

If it's good enough for the Russian President's children to do this, it should be OK for everyone else, too!

It will be tough for me living in Russia since i don't speak any Russia (too old to learn a new language).

True about the tough, but nonsense about being too old.  The best way to learn any new language is to be immersed amongst its native speakers, and that would certainly be the case for you.  You would pick up the basics VERY quickly and, believe me, that would help to start making Russian friends when they see you making that much effort.  I'm not suggesting for a moment that you try to become fluent unless you live there permanently - but that would take many years.

She wants our children to have U.S. and Russian citizenship (duel passports).  Yes, she's talking about 2 kids.....

Look at her age.  She's 38 now - is she in a rush to have children simply because she feels her biological clock ticking away?  That's really NOT a good reason to have children.  It's also not a good reason to encourage her, no matter how much you want kids of your own.  You both need to want children for the RIGHT reasons, and the approach of menopause, by itself, is not one of them.

I was also thinking just have kids and not get legally married yet and live in Russian or another country in the beginning and see how thing progress, but I haven't present the idea to her yet?....

Don't even joke about this.  She will have seen this happen to too many of her friends (not the "living in another country" part, though) - who then get dumped.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck in travelling what will be a long and very rocky road.

[BillyB]

Welcome to the forum MaybeLucky. Sounds like you did a good job winning this woman's heart without leading with your wallet. You don't have to rush into marriage. Since she can't get a visa to America, invite her to another country such as Dominican Republic where she needs no visa. Spend some alone time with her and see if there's an ugly side of her that shows up.

The advice on prenups up thread is solid. If you don't follow the guidelines of your states laws, or your fiancée doesn't have an attorney to represent her rights, or she doesn't understand what she's signing, you might as well use your prenup as toilet paper. Most people believe a prenup is to prevent a gold digger from taking too much in the event of a divorce but I believe the true importance of a prenup is to prevent a bias judge from giving one party too much by straying from his/her state guidelines. A good judge will never let a divorcee get more than his/her fair share or send a divorcee empty handed into the streets.

You mention you have considered living in St. Petersburg. IF you decide to marry and divorce there, you will divorce based on Russia's laws. If you marry there and divorce in America, you will divorce based on America's laws. You still need a prenup. Also you mention you will have children. Think about their welfare. America is more stable in many ways than Russia and America will offer your children more opportunity to succeed in life. Also if you marry or don't marry the lady while living in Russia and have kids, you may want to return home but your children won't be going with you.

[Maybelucky]

Anotherkiwi,  I really appreciate you break it down and your honest opinion.  Honestly,  Money wasn't that important to me.  I always consider money as financial security, freedom, and lifestyle.  I am still driving the car I brought in 2003 with 160K miles.  With that said, I am too old to start over again, and I am not going to risk to let some judge "joe" or "judy" in XXX county/township to ruining my life in a divorce judgement.  I always work hard and save and invested.  Long time ago, I realized that you can't take the money with you and money does not give true happiness and fulfillment.  We both want to have kids,  I want to experience fatherhood, have done just about everything else.  Her age is big factor, however, an even bigger factor is that we must consider the health of the unborn child.  The later we wait, the more risk for the baby have greater chance of born with birth defects.  I think she knows that financially I am well off, but doesn't know the detail of it.  She has applied for the Schengen visa last week.  I think/hope she should get it.  We are talking about go to Spain to spend some time together, maybe a month.  I have a condo there.  She tells me (and I do believe her) that she very much love me and just want to be with me.  We text each other twice a day on Whatsupp before and since I met her in Russia.  I have always been truthful with her.  I always treat her well and she tells me she loves me.  I sincerely believe we have a good, genuine relationship and I should do everything I can within my ability to build on it.....

Thanks for everyone's reply and appreciate all your advise and wisdoms

Maybelucky

[Boethius]

Have you asked a lawyer if the 90 day window is too short for a prenup?  Or are you just assuming that's the case?

[Maybelucky]

BillyB

I went to America public school many years ago and I have nephews graduated from America public schools.  It's true that America public school have the best of everything, buildings, school supplies, money from property taxes.  However, the America school culture is much worst than most school in other countries.  The students don't respect the teacher and the level of education is far lower than most other countries.  American universities are still better compare to other countries.  These are my observations.....

[Maybelucky]

Have you asked a lawyer if the 90 day window is too short for a prenup?  Or are you just assuming that's the case?

For fincee visa, you must legally get married (at the courthouse) within 90 days of she arrived in the U.S. or she must leave U.S. within the 90 days.  My lawyer can get the prenup draft it, but I am risking the judge might throw out the prenup saying she was under duress to sign the agreement  because of the 90 days deadline.....one can always 2nd guess....

[Boethius]

Is this something your lawyer has advised? 


Where I live, 90 days would be a more than adequate time frame.

[whynotme]

You know better do you need pre-nap or not ... but if it was me I wouldn't agree to marry you. 
According Russian laws the property, owned by each of the spouses before marriage as well as property received by spouse during the marriage as a gift, by inheritance or such, is their property. The same thing is in the state where I live now. In addition, any pre-nap can be cancelled in the court, so you will do lawyers richer, that's all.
It is not necessary to sign pre-nap before submitting documents for K-1 visa, your fiancée may change the decision to marry you when she'll come to USA. However, you need to discuss the issue now and not put an ultimatum if you don't sign I'll not marry you in a week before the wedding.

[ML]

According Russian laws the property, owned by each of the spouses before marriage as well as property received by spouse during the marriage as a gift, by inheritance or such, is their property. The same thing is in the state where I live now.

Doesn't always work in practice. 
I know multiple cases where judge ruled:  Party X has all this previously owned property, so I am giving all the jointly acquired property to Y.  This had the same effect as throwing all the pre-owned and jointly acquired property into one pot and splitting it.

[2tallbill]

In addition, any pre-nap can be cancelled in the court, so you will do lawyers richer, that's all.

Good point,

Tossing out those prenups is pretty common especially with a person
who's understanding of English is so-so.

Udachi!

Bill

[BillyB]

the level of education is far lower than most other countries.  American universities are still better compare to other countries.  These are my observations.....

I agree the lower level education in America is lacking and the higher level of education is better than other countries but there's more benefits to raise your kids in America that are usually overlooked by Americans. Security and stability of this nation is very important. There's usually conflicts going on somewhere in the world at any given time. Russia's leadership is looking to expand it's borders. They have an increased chance in getting into a fight that may spill over onto their borders. Chances are it won't happen but there is a chance.

[Boethius]

Good point,

Tossing out those prenups is pretty common especially with a person
who's understanding of English is so-so.

Udachi!

Bill

Actually, no, tossing out prenups is not particularly common.

[Slumba]

Maybelucky, congrats to you, both on building a nice pile and also building a nice relationship with a good woman.

I actually would not recommend you use a pre-nup. 

Instead, you should talk to a *good* lawyer who is familiar with the various trusts that can be set up.  In such a case, the trust will own the assets and cash and you will get basically a draw or salary from it each month.  (This is a simplified version of how it works of course.)

You seem like a guy who lives below his means, which is good. You can have a nice upper-middle-class lifestyle by using a trust, without having to worry, and can focus on helping her adjust etc.  play with any children, etc. 

No prenup needed.

Second point I would make is, yes, it is important to act quickly - sounds like you have made a decision already, etc.  However, I couldn't quite help remembering the old say "marry in haste, repent at leisure". 

I would recommend a second meeting (you have the cash to do so), maybe some travel within Russia (nothing fancy, just fun - St. Petersburg is worth a visit I am told) in order to really make sure that she is the one for you.

Finally I can't help but point out that at 38, not being married: bluntly, she has had other men "pass" on her.  There might be an underlying reason for that (although to be fair some people are just not as lucky in love as others).

In any case, welcome to the forum and I wish you good fortune in love ...

[vwrw]

For fincee visa, you must legally get married (at the courthouse) within 90 days of she arrived in the U.S. or she must leave U.S. within the 90 days.  My lawyer can get the prenup draft it, but I am risking the judge might throw out the prenup saying she was under duress to sign the agreement  because of the 90 days deadline.....one can always 2nd guess....

You need to give her the prenup draft for reading and evaluating while she is in Russia. It does not have to be the final copy, but she needs to have a chance to determine if the prenup appears fair to her before she leaves her established life behind. If she is okay with what she sees in the prenup, then there is more chance that she will be fine with it. And if she does not like it, then you would have more time to work with it without the 90 days deadline pressure. 


In the US, every week,  on average, 14 babies are borne to women 50 years or older. And with all the testing available to determine birth defects, you do not have to rush. One year earlier or later won't make much difference.

[GregfromGa]

I think you are going to need a little more face to face time. What state do you live if you don't mind me asking? One thing is pretty certain, you're going to know what you have when you start talking prenup. The wheels could come off this thing in a hurry or it might not be a big deal.  If you are serious about this then I would also advise learning Russian. It was a big mistake of mine not doing this.

[Boethius]

Relatively few individuals will ever achieve the fluency in Russian to speak it on a daily basis, unless they are living in a Russian speaking country.

Why do you think not learning Russian was a mistake?

[Anotherkiwi]

In the US, every week,  on average, 14 babies are borne to women 50 years or older. And with all the testing available to determine birth defects, you do not have to rush. One year earlier or later won't make much difference.

That's an amazing statistic, which I'm quite that nobody on here would have expected.    And I see that in the UK they average three births a week in that age group, so roughly the same proportion of the population.