Imperial versus Metric

[SANDRO43]

Yet it is not a mile, adding more confusion, especially if velocity is reported as knots.

A Statute mile (5,280 feet, or 1,760 yards, and standardised as exactly 1,609.344 metres) is not equal to the Nautical mile, originally defined as 1' of latitude of the Earth which, not being a perfect sphere, makes the length of a minute of latitude increase by 1% from the equator to the poles: its agreed value is 6,080 feet (about 1,852 metres or 1.15 statute miles), covered in 1 hour is a speed of 1 knot.

Why not 100 degrees in a circle rather than 360?  It was developed when we did not know the world was round.

We inherited parts of the sexagesimal system (base 60) from the ancient Sumerians of the 3rd millennium BC, and still use it for subdividing time (60' to the hour, 60" to the minute) and a circumference (6x60=360°). An exception was the nautical point (1/32 of 360°=11.25° or 11°15') because it fit well the 32 subdivisions of old compass cards:

Since that has been in use for 5,000+ years, it's unlikely to be changed any time soon

[msmob]

You are still missing my point, but unlike others, I will not have an extended back and forth.

And yet, you are insisting we are missing your point - whilst missing ours - and continuing in folly mode !?

Saying the combined economies of the other areas outweigh the USA has nothing to do with my arguments.

Incorrect: YOU raised the cost implications .. I pointed out that US Car firms are METRIC ..

10 other countries could individually switch from one measurement system to another and each would incur much less cost than incurred by another country which was nearly as large in size as the other combined countries.

Strawman..  Only the USA persists in being partially Imperial ... changing from $/gall to £/ litre - for example - would be EASY in this electronics age - compared to when the UK swapped - in the analogue era

And lest the points were lost:

1) I am not saying we don't have metric currency.

No-one said you didn't

2) I am not saying we don't know how to deal in metric anything.

You're more than half-way there ..

3) I am not saying that I think Imperial is better than Metric . . . it is not.

Yes, yes... "It's about cost"..  I think we get it ....  *I* think it's more emotional - losing a 'tradition'

And why would you dispute my true honest statement that I repair many of my own machines, cars, trucks, tractors, mowers and use Imperial wrenches, sockets, etc., dozens of times for every one time that I might encounter a metric socket?

I didn't ...  ANOTHER case of YOU missing the point ...   Mr Trump would be proud of you - having all the US made kit !

[Anotherkiwi]

And I would dispute that our industrial products are mostly metric anyway as Kiwi said.

You've done this AGAIN, just as you did all those months ago when we were discussing healthcare costs!  I did NOT say that your industrial products are "mostly" metric - I wrote that "much" of your industry is already metric.

Big, BIG difference.

[Gator]

A Statute mile (5,280 feet, or 1,760 yards, and standardised as exactly 1,609.344 metres) is not equal to the Nautical mile, originally defined as 1' of latitude of the Earth which, not being a perfect sphere, makes the length of a minute of latitude increase by 1% from the equator to the poles.........

We inherited parts of the sexagesimal system (base 60) from the ancient Sumerians of the 3rd millennium BC,..... An exception was the nautical point (1/32 of 360°=11.25° or 11°15') because it fit well the 32 subdivisions of old compass cards:

Since that has been in use for 5,000+ years, it's unlikely to be changed any time soon

Thanks, but does not solve my personal riddle.  Sumrians did not know the earth was round.  Did they even know there was a Mediterranean Sea?  Was this nautical system developed when the world knew little more than the Mediterranean?  Why did not the developers of this system of measuring the globe  say one minute of longitude equal one nautical mile (which of course would not work because it would vary widely dependent upon latitude)?

My guess:  I assume the early developers focused on  latitude because it was easily determined.   Rigorous determination of longitude was a noble pursuit of the scientific community for hundreds of years, and not accurately developed until the 18thC.   

BTW, to help my memory as a third grader, I differentiated longitude from latitude by the fact the Med is longer E-W than N-S; hence longitude is measured E-W.   

 

[SANDRO43]

Sumrians did not know the earth was round.  Did they even know there was a Mediterranean Sea? 

I assume they did:

The Epic of Gilgamesh refers to trade with far lands for goods such as wood that were scarce in Mesopotamia. In particular, cedar from Lebanon was prized.

Was this nautical system developed when the world knew little more than the Mediterranean?

Yes.

The Greeks studied the results of the measurements of latitude by the explorer Pytheas who voyaged to Britain and beyond, as far as the Arctic Circle (observing the midnight sun), in 325 BC. They used several methods to measure latitude, including the height of the Sun above the horizon at midday, measured using a gnōmōn (a word that originally meant an interpreter or judge); the length of the day at the summer solstice, and the elevation of the Sun at winter solstice. The Greek Marinus of Tyre (AD 70–130) was the first to assign a latitude and longitude to every place on his maps.

Why did not the developers of this system of measuring the globe  say one minute of longitude equal one nautical mile...)? My guess:  I assume the early developers focused on  latitude because it was easily determined. Rigorous determination of longitude was a noble pursuit of the scientific community for hundreds of years, and not accurately developeed until the 18thC.

Probably. However, after agriculture was invented (13-10,000 BC) ancient people were understandably more concerned with land measurements , 'property' of the seas was thought to be vested in some gods, not humans.

[tfcrew]

  It was developed when we did not know the world was round.   

 

The ancient Greeks not only knew that the Earth was a sphere, but calculated its diameter.
The idea that the Earth was flat at the time of Columbus is based on myth.
Columbus just didn't know for sure how long it would take to cross the Atlantic to find land on the other side

[2tallbill]

Does Europe do long and lat in degrees?  Why not 100 degrees in a circle rather than 360?  It was developed when we did not know the world was round.   

Likewise there are 24 hours in a day, why not 10 or a 100? and there are 60
minutes in an hour and 60 seconds in a minute. Why not something base 10?
Why 12 months of 30 days for a year? 

The Sumerians, noticed the circular track of the Sun's yearly journey across
the sky and knew that it took about 360 days to complete the trip. So they
did a little math and they divided the circular path into 360 degrees to track
each day's passage of the Sun's whole journey. That's how we ended up with
the base 60 method of minutes and seconds.

Back in the olden Sumerian days they had different time lengths for hours for
summer and winter, the Greeks standardized them. They used that exercise
to develop mathematical concepts that we still use today.

[msmob]

True story:

Over a meal 15 years ago a Russia lady was telling me her real age and had earlier informed me that Russians use the same word for toes and fingers

I though she was having a 'larf at my expense, so I told her that the UK had 'decimalised' time. 10 days to the month, etc., ..a year being a deccie.

A few weeks later - over a dinner party - she announced this news to fellow Russian speakers ....   to much derision and merriment...

She looked at me accusingly and I responded, " Well you told me the Russian language was 'Richer than English', yet you use the same word for fingers and toes?   ...  I thought you were having me on - so I responded...."  More falling around with laughter from the English speaking members and stares from Russian speakers...

"That's right" - the same word .. "палец" ( palets) finger / toe .... "She was telling you the TRUTH"

[HiTech]

" Well you told me the Russian language was 'Richer than English'

Also I'm always amazed at how many words they have for describing how well food tastes.

"That's right" - the same word .. "палец" ( palets) finger / toe .... "

For future husbands, they are called "foot fingers".


HiTech

[BdHvA]

Yet it is not a mile, adding more confusion, especially if velocity is reported as knots.   

Does Europe do long and lat in degrees?  Why not 100 degrees in a circle rather than 360?  It was developed when we did not know the world was round.   

Yes aviation and marine locations are referred to degrees offshore. There is certain elegance in knots as they are one minute of latitude.

It makes perfect sense in one can navigate. The system was formalized when most everyone knew the world was round, early 17th century as I recall.

[jone]

Yes aviation and marine locations are referred to degrees offshore. There is certain elegance in knots as they are one minute of latitude.

It makes perfect sense in one can navigate. The system was formalized when most everyone knew the world was round, early 17th century as I recall.

Geez, Av, I thought you were a much younger man.

[ML]

Geez, Av, I thought you were a much younger man.

Niece told me she was studying Civil War at school and asked if I could help.

I said: OK, what do you want to know.

She: Well first, what was it like?

[BdHvA]

Niece told me she was studying Civil War at school and asked if I could help.

I said: OK, what do you want to know.

She: Well first, what was it like?

UGH! 

Jonesey, This is stuff that I have largely forgotten, but yes in 1617 the system was formulated by a Dutchman and accepted and used by the English since than. The concept of Lat/Long was around before, but there was little agreement on the actual distance until the 17th century.

I assume Gator is asking about the Sumerians of Mesopotamia. I think they realized the earth was round. & I am fairly certain they knew of the Mediterranean Sea.

As an aside; It is odd how one can post something and that latter a number of other posts are on the thread, indicating earlier posts but they appear latter. Is this a fact of not refreshing the home page?

[SANDRO43]

As an aside; It is odd how one can post something and that latter a number of other posts are on the thread, indicating earlier posts but they appear latter. Is this a fact of not refreshing the home page?

BdHvA, posts are shown in the boards here in the chronological sequence they are made. The delay you see has many causes, like members reading/answering a few hours/days later because not every member reads ALL new posts immediately, the interposition of other posts not quite on the subject, etc. etc.

Witness your reply yesterday to a post Gator made on July 30, i.e. almost 1.5 months later .