Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Odds and Ends => Topic started by: msmob on September 16, 2017, 02:04:27 AM
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Rather than ruin RW's TR - I thought it might be a good idea for us to comment on 'issues' arising on a separate thread ? ..
Well you do at least support my position then that Ukraine is a country with many poor people, something some on here earlier was disputing ;)
Selective reading, (AGAIN) Trench? Specific examples of those doing better - who were in the company of our RW doesn't make Ukraine 'rich' - there ARE those who are extraordinary wealthy compared to most ...
I'd not be too quick to use BillyB's 'research' to back up your contentions ...
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:applause: :thumbsup:
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I have a low opinion of guys that BS about making the journey and never do too Moby, they just have no balls and are full of BS totally unworthy.
I think Billy is making an important contribution here, he is showing us new starters and those a little into it but still no real experienced the type of woman to go for. I have turned up three that were despite their flaws honest enough in that they were no direct scammers. Its handy though fo someone like Billy that has really made it and married to a good Ukrainian girl to show us the sorts of girls & their qualities we should look for. I'm grateful for him taking the time out to do this.
You simply contradict yourself in paragraphs 1 and 2
BillyB's 'research ' is more about his self gratification and boredom while his missus' was back in Ukraine ...
IF you thought, before hitting post - you'd realise that for BillyB's 'research' to be accurate - he must lie to gain the 'test subjects' ' attention ? ....
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:applause: :thumbsup:
Maybe all his posts in every thread should be here !
After all -- they all repeatedly show what an idiot he actually is .
There is a simple theme-- Trench thinks he knows better than EVERYONE else -regardless.
Now we have the spectacle of Trench deciding BillyB knows what he is talking about -- which for anyone reading it should be clear he has little actual first hand experience-- and knows even less about agencies.
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Well you do at least support my position then that Ukraine is a country with many poor people, something some on here earlier was disputing ;)
What you say may be true Boethius but as BillyB said that's fine if they want to do that but he just chooses not to go to those that do agency work for a lifetime partner. In other words yes it may be a necessity in some cases but it often means the girl in the process may make herself no good, possibly they may be ones that still are - a matter for debate, but me as a guy wanting to find a life partner do I really want to waste time & money wading through a swamp of bad girls hoping to find the one good one or surround myself with good non-agency girls and increase my odds dramatically.
From my perspective the latter is likely to pay off better for me and as said earlier with an agency girl I would have no way of knowing if she was decent, just playing me or decent but might later fall back into old ways until way down the line, essentially too late. Why do I want to go into this with that added bother when I don't have to, like said its messing yourself up before you begin.
Its natural for you to want to defend Ukrainian girls, life can no doubt be harsh out there but life can get hard if time & money is spent getting with the wrong girl for the guy. After all guys don't ask girls to sh*t up there search but regularly they do even when the guy has made it evident that he is after a real relationship and family just for the girls own selfish ends.They seem to have no comprehension that, 'hey this guy is really looking for Miss Right and I'm selfishly taking up his limited time by getting in the way of that because I want to make a few bucks out of him' and these girls with hang onto a bloke not just for a bit but a long, long way.
It is a poor country, overall. But that doesn't mean people who claim to be making lots of cash are lying.
Odesa is the drug gateway to Europe. Of course there's a lot of money there. But it's not distributed evenly.
It's not a defence on my part. It's about understanding the society and seeing things from both sides.
Your last point goes back to my original point on morality. You see things solely from one side. Look at it from the Ukrainian perspective. For over two decades, mostly middle aged, bloated men have appeared in the country throwing a few dollars with the goal of bedding a much younger woman. Often, decades younger. Don't you believe that jades the locals?
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It is a poor country, overall. But that doesn't mean people who claim to be making lots of cash are lying.
Odesa is the drug gateway to Europe. Of course there's a lot of money there. But it's not distributed evenly.
It's not a defence on my part. It's about understanding the society and seeing things from both sides.
Your last point goes back to my original point on morality. You see things solely from one side. Look at it from the Ukrainian perspective. For over two decades, mostly middle aged, bloated men have appeared in the country throwing a few dollars with the goal of bedding a much younger woman. Often, decades younger. Don't you believe that jades the locals?
There are those primarily in Kivy/Kiev and Odesa/Odessa who earn by any criteria a fair bit of money, they are the exception to the general population. Whether they earn there money by legal means is another discussion. But for at least the last seven years the middle class has been shrinking. As we have seen repeatedly seen on Travel Reports if one avoids the ex-pat circle the cost of living even in Kivy/Kiev or Odesa/Odessa are considerably lower than the West of Europe or North America.
As for the most drugs in Europe entering through Ukraine? I doubt it I assume most drugs for Western Europe prefer the warm welcome provided by Rotterdam.
The majority of 'bloated men' have gotten down the road there comeuppance. It is not so much morality as reality hidden behind justice.
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As for the most drugs in Europe entering through Ukraine? I doubt it I assume most drugs for Western Europe prefer the warm welcome provided by Rotterdam.
I believe most if it is now run through Africa and up into Spain. Was reading a briefing on it the other day. But yes, Rotterdam to the North.
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There are those primarily in Kivy/Kiev and Odesa/Odessa who earn by any criteria a fair bit of money, they are the exception to the general population. Whether they earn there money by legal means is another discussion. But for at least the last seven years the middle class has been shrinking. As we have seen repeatedly seen on Travel Reports if one avoids the ex-pat circle the cost of living even in Kivy/Kiev or Odesa/Odessa are considerably lower than the West of Europe or North America.
I know that from personal experience. MIL lives 10 minutes from the city centre in Kyiv. Yet people don't walk at night because of crime. Unemployment is extremely high.
As for the most drugs in Europe entering through Ukraine? I doubt it I assume most drugs for Western Europe prefer the warm welcome provided by Rotterdam.
There's a lot written on this in the Ukrainian press. It on occasion makes its way to the Western press.
Here are a few articles that mention it.
http://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/bn5b74/how-the-invasion-of-ukraine-is-shaking-up-the-global-crime-scene-1106
http://www.porttechnology.org/news/odessa_port_seizes_60_million_worth_of_cocaine_in_ukraines_biggest_bust
http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/politics/article/a-city-in-between-wars-odessa-and-the-challenges-facing-its-new-governor.html
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I know that from personal experience. MIL lives 10 minutes from the city centre in Kyiv. Yet people don't walk at night because of crime. Unemployment is extremely high.
In Kiev I have walked to the local supper markets that are 24/7 open at all hours and not felt(sensed) or expeirenced any problems.
There's a lot written on this in the Ukrainian press. It on occasion makes its way to the Western press.
Here are a few articles that mention it.
http://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/bn5b74/how-the-invasion-of-ukraine-is-shaking-up-the-global-crime-scene-1106
http://www.porttechnology.org/news/odessa_port_seizes_60_million_worth_of_cocaine_in_ukraines_biggest_bust
http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/politics/article/a-city-in-between-wars-odessa-and-the-challenges-facing-its-new-governor.html
Looking at the first article it is an op-editorial with no supporting documentation.
60 million seized in America is no big deal anymore - for what it is worth I recall Canada seized some 400 million late last year in a single 'bust'. But the assumption that a large percentage of heroin is flowing through Ukraine makes sense.
The last article is two year old and Saakashvili is no longer leader of the Odesa Oblast. But the core problem of corruption remains. Bear in mind the conviction for drug trafficking in Ukraine is heavy (a long prison term).
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I know that from personal experience. MIL lives 10 minutes from the city centre in Kyiv. Yet people don't walk at night because of crime. Unemployment is extremely high.
Unemployment is not high among hookers. :P
On one trip I had rented an apartment near Gulliver in Kiev. I was approached every night by hookers and others offering me fun and handing me a card. Eew....
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In Kiev I have walked to the local supper markets that are 24/7 open at all hours and not felt(sensed) or expeirenced any problems.
Looking at the first article it is an op-editorial with no supporting documentation.
60 million seized in America is no big deal anymore - for what it is worth I recall Canada seized some 400 million late last year in a single 'bust'. But the assumption that a large percentage of heroin is flowing through Ukraine makes sense.
The last article is two year old and Saakashvili is no longer leader of the Odesa Oblast. But the core problem of corruption remains. Bear in mind the conviction for drug trafficking in Ukraine is heavy (a long prison term).
The articles were not meant to be a treatise, just a snapshot. This is covered routinely in the Ukrainian press, which is where my information comes from.
The 60 million bust in Odesa was by chance. The 400 million bust in Canada was after an over year long extensive investigation, and was the largest drug bust in the Ontario Provincial Police's history.
Drug trafficking sentences are long in Canada and the US. That doesn't stop it.
Putting Saakashvili in charge of the most corrupt city in Ukraine truly was putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
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BillyB's right its further down the line you have to be able to trust a woman, how could you possibly trust a woman that has made deceiving men her life's work. Just like showing a girl how wealthy you are your buggering yourself before you've even begun, you'll only know if she's decent enough until she's with you a long time and has proven herself worthy but with an agency girl she could take you for all its worth instead - not even a educated risk but a much greater risk than normal, a foolish one even. Odds are her attitude could change after second or third visit as she starts to tire of RW and fall back into old ways or she may hold out for big payout down the line.
Part of what I have learnt from recent experience is the necessity of getting the method right by not tripping myself up by making foolish mistakes such as letting on about wealth or going for a girl that mixes in the wrong circles such as agency sorts. I agree with Billy looking for a good girl is of paramount importance all other paths are just gambling with my time and money which is foolish in itself.
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I'm not here to defend the actions of bad agencies or bad agency girls.
Girls mind you,not women.
I will say that billys and your outlook is good advice, but also inaccurate.
It's coming from the assumption ALL agency girls deceive, wrangle gifts and money from innocent unsuspecting foreign men.
Yes I agree to stay away from ppl agencies.
Why?
Well here ya go.
I live in a glass house but I'm not afraid to address the elephant in that room.
A very very small percent of women at a ppl agency ,get the vast majority of attention.out of that percentage yes quite a few hot young women are mercenary.
Youth equates to beauty as a generality, and middle aged guys chasing young hot skirt are the majority that get burned.
They would get burned at home chasing local truly hot 20yo's old as well 9 times out of ten (because if interested,her interest would be mercenary )
His friends and family locally woukd all tell him it's a fools gamecwith low odds of sincerity.
So he thinks it will be different in kyiv or odesa?
Why? Because she's poor? Really great thinking Lol
Sorry the general rule that no young true hottie has any real sincere interest in an older guy holds anywhere anytime, anything else is an exception.
That doesn't mean the mecernary 20yo agency girl gets a free pass in her actions.
Nor does the guy 20 to 30 years older ger a free pass for not knowing better.he does.
As far as agency compared to free sites, there are plenty of Scammers on free sites too.
If you think for one second a 20yo smokinhotkova off a free site, showing interest in a decades older guy, isn't just as likely to be mercenary as any agency hottie (or local girl) you're mistaken.
So vast majority if crash and burns at such suspect agencies , is over a METHODOLOGY, of a guy chasing a girl out of his league.
This methodology, wouldn't be enerally successful in his home town, at a free site of fsu women, or with fsu women he met at the park.
If he dated fsu women his age, in relative attractiveness to his looks and and status, it would not matter if he met them off a ppl site ,a free site or the park,we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
So to think the crappy ppl.sites,are the real heart if the issue cracks me up.
The mens expectations are.
They travel to a poor economy, a culture and society where corruption is a way of life and accepted as status quo, then think *where* they fid the woman has much bearing on any given woman's ethics.
:cluebat:
The reason guys should avoid ppl, is because they are like moths to the flame, they write the too ten hottest youest women, or as close to it as the personally dare, and wonder why there are issues.
they simply can't bring themselves to correspond with the thousands and thousands of women in just one city on such sites they'd consider average.
I know a pile in nikoleave that are quite attractive, early to late 30s and never ger a sincere letter.in 3 or 4 years. They then typical give up,as they never really felt it possible anyway.
To label all agency girls as unethical , over the percent thst are mecenary,is silly.
To wade through the ppl bad agency crap,we say is too tough.
Its,only too tough because men are men.
I married someone 19 years younger, and breathtakingly beautiful inside and out, so admit the glass house .
My wife was 28 when we met.
So dont take it harsh ,I'm throwing pebbles not stones!
But I don't hide behind crappy excuses,or blame mercenary girls for any failure of my own.
I own my actions,every one of them. poor or not, and frankly had no problems telling a good person from a mercenary one.
If I did not, I'd have mitigated my losses and taken my lumps.
In fact I'd have probably felt
*good on ya girl* and know I was as culpable as she, and just moved on.
It's about attitude.
Its about realistic expectations,
And it's about knowing what you have to offer as a partner
( very little of that worth is measured financially)
I've made decent money some years ad zero some years,means nothing.
My wife has worked ,and would gladly carry us, if I was unable to at any given time.She's never had to ,but the attitude of a team, a partnership in life as a family is fundamental to how she thinks,reacts, lives. As long as its a husband she loves and respects this is typical of an FSU woman s mentality .
So guys going on about a subset of 20 yo smokinhotkovas, being totally mercenary, is actually a bit amusing .
These are not the guys a model looking 20 to 25yo NYC or LA socialite is regularly dating, and within that group of girls ,there is a pretty good percent of mercenary status climbers.
So yeap guys should avoid flying to NyC to meet them, unless buying very high end items is their idea if true romance right?
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Unemployment is not high among hookers. :P
On one trip I had rented an apartment near Gulliver in Kiev. I was approached every night by hookers and others offering me fun and handing me a card. Eew....
That is again due to poverty. There's been a significant upswing in prostitution since Maidan, given the government's cuts in social benefits to single mothers, and the devaluation of the hryvnia. Single mothers now get the equivalent of $58 a month. Utilities for most apartments would be around $25 a month, and that's a subsidized price.
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There's nobody on this forum who dated more older women than I have.
BillyB
I don't now whether you mean older than you or older women in general - but I don't know why you post such daft things.... you simply cannot know what our members got up to and may be chose to to discuss / disclose ..
I don't discriminate on age. I don't read women's profiles so I write to women 17 and up depending on if they are beautiful in my eyes.
There's that use of present tense - again ... It seems you simply cannot stay away from dating sites ))
A person is considered an adult at the age of 17 in the FSU and in some places list themselves on dating sites.
No, in both Ukraine, Russia and Belarus the age of majority is 18 - As you confirmed - to marry under this age - you need parental approval
There is NO way I'd have given my daughters approval to marry so young - and esp a much " 'older git " - even if it mean they did it anyway on their achieving majority .. WHY ? Because most of us remember how 'mature' we were at 17
I'm thinking BillyB's post will have more foreheads being slapped than nodding - ( male and female, FSU or not ) but he can feel free to delude himself - as normal ! ))
I read it out to 4 ladies ( 3 FSU) and eyes rolled ... certainly no nodding ... Great entertainment, BillyB
Still you have the likes of Trench who hang on your every word .. :D
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The age for marriage in Ukraine changed for females from 17 to 18 in 2012. At some time, it was 16, can't recall when.
ETA - I know the age for marriage in Ukraine used to be 16 for women.
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The age for marriage in Ukraine changed for females from 17 to 18 in 2012. At some time, it was 16, can't recall when.
ETA - I know the age for marriage in Ukraine used to be 16 for women.
It's 18 here, but 16 and 17 year olds can marry with parental consent (same in Australia, except the court's, rather than the parent's, consent is needed). Sex is legal from the age of 16 here, so there is no potential threat of an older partner being charged with statutory rape in such cases (as happens occasionally in some jurisdictions in the USA where the age of consent is 17 or 18).
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I'm not here to defend the actions of bad agencies or bad agency girls.
What AJ and I have both attempted to do was to give a little insight into the website/agency/girls life and relationship .Previously -- both of us plus Sasha & Jone have made extensive attempts to explain on forums real information. Note-- not stuff we have read --but real first hand exposure.
Understanding more --is the key to "beating" the system -- but no guarantee.
I have made the point that I do not think a guys chances are much better on so called "free" sites -- and in a lot of ways -- worse !
What particularly irritates me is that some with very little first hand knowledge use the word "agency" as if all girls that sign up are ALL at the "worst" end of the scale .There is no doubt --that in the past ( & occasionally now) that there were plenty of sharks out there.That worked far better in a time where internet exposure was not so prevalent .
Now anyone that does basic research can learn about the business -- but as we all know-- we still get a procession on the forum who are still believing in what they see.Many make a post or two and disappear when they read a little reality.
What some guys completely miss- the consumer laws that exist in some western countries -- are non existent in the FSU. Or to put it another way --nothing to protect guys from their own stupidity.
The owners of the notorious sites have gone to a lot of trouble to keep themselves out of jurisdictions with consumer protection laws !!
What our Trenchcoat is intent on presuming is that he is entitled to choose a girl-- based on his misguided belief that he has something to offer .It embodies all the worst principles of seeking a partner from somewhere else.
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I had to repost this here--for all to see !!
This was directed to BillyB and sums up my thoughts too !!
Of note--is Trenchcoat agreeing with BB.
Anotherkiwi
Hero Member
*****
Re: The Trump Doctrine
« Reply #3686 on: Today at 03:31:33 PM »
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Has your brain taken a hike since your wife left for her holiday? I've agreed with a lot of your stuff in the past, and occasionally defended you when nobody else would, but some of what you've been posting lately is truly bizarre.
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I will say that billys and your outlook is good advice, but also inaccurate.
It's coming from the assumption ALL agency girls deceive, wrangle gifts and money from innocent unsuspecting foreign men.
I've never said ALL agency girls deceive.
Girls that get paid to chat, write letters, and go on dates with men deceive.
Girls that take men shopping without being in a relationship with them deceive.
Girls that ask men they never met to Western Union them money deceive.
If a girl finds her dream man, she wouldn't insult him by asking for money or take him shopping because she doesn't want to risk losing him. For the men she doesn't care about, a deceptive woman will separate them from their money.
Of note--is Trenchcoat agreeing with BB.
Big deal. I told Trenchcoat his last two girls weren't right. He hung around them too long and wasted time off his life. I was right. He took it like a man and is learning. You and a few others here have your panties all bunched up. Hard for you guys to take it like a man wearing panties. You seem to want to be the resident expert on marriage agencies when you have the least amount of time around women. Doesn't make sense. Try to get out of the friend zone with women and get some real experience.
Hey JayH, what's the rumors about me behind PM's saying? Don't bother. I'm not into drama and babushka like gossip. I'm glad you don't like me. I wouldn't want to be receiving your PM's complaining about others and talking about which people hurt your feelings. Grow up JayH.
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Speaking of Ukraine being poor, and also drug dealers etc :) ))))) (there are so many experts on this question here, pardon my intrusion in the discussion :) )))) don't forget, that not only criminals are rich in modern Ukraine :) )) Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.
PS: Could you please catch me up on one thing: is Trenchcoat BillyB's gf/wife? :) I haven't been around for a while so the last thing I remember about BillyB is his amazing trip report a couple of years ago which kept me gripped for like many evenings (as well as multiple fights around it) :) ))))))))))))) - Ok, got it, Trenchcoat is not the RW who's writing the report, then can somebody give me a link to the report which is discussed, pls? :) )))))
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I know that from personal experience. MIL lives 10 minutes from the city centre in Kyiv. Yet people don't walk at night because of crime. Unemployment is extremely high.
In Kiev I have walked to the local supper markets that are 24/7 open at all hours and not felt(sensed) or expeirenced any problems.
You know, guys, this made me remember one thing. I sometimes watch a youtube channel of 2 girls who used to live in the USA and then relocated to China to work there as English teachers. It's quite interesting to watch their insights on cultural differences and all that stuff. But there was one video which was kinda revealing :) )) The girls were talking about the pros of living in China, and the main advantage they named was SAFETY :) ))) Which was kinda surprising, because knowing about the level of everything in China it's hard to imagine it to be a safe country. But I still remember the astonished facial expression of the girl from LA who kept saying: "Can you believe it, you can actually go by bus without being attacked, and you can walk at 10 pm and it's perfectly safe!" (it was eye-opening for me because I'd never think it's unsafe to use public transport in LA, btw).
I'm saying this because whether it's safe or not safe to walk around at night in Ukraine (it depends), it really has nothing to do with poverty, it's all about local culture, your personal behavior and a bit of luck.
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That is again due to poverty. There's been a significant upswing in prostitution since Maidan, given the government's cuts in social benefits to single mothers, and the devaluation of the hryvnia. Single mothers now get the equivalent of $58 a month. Utilities for most apartments would be around $25 a month, and that's a subsidized price.
Oh, come on! I know mothers of two who knit toys and sell them on the Internet to European customers, making a lot of money, who give classes on Skype and make decent money, I know people cooking festive food for a lot of money, and there are a lot of people (both men and women) who left their low-paid jobs, did short-term courses and started working in IT, making a lot of money. Which means that there will always be someone who is eager to do nothing and just spread their legs for money (no, I'm being unfair to them, this is also hard work :))), and it has nothing to do with poverty. If you want to make money in Ukraine, you will find a way which won't insult your dignity, believe me. But of course it's easier to do nothing, complain and try to scam money out of people who want to feel like heroes coming and saving somebody from the depth of poverty and squalor :))))
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...But I still remember the astonished facial expression of the girl from LA who kept saying: "Can you believe it, you can actually go by bus without being attacked, and you can walk at 10 pm and it's perfectly safe!" (it was eye-opening for me because I'd never think it's unsafe to use public transport in LA, btw).
Understand that in LA, the vast majority of people who uses 'public transportation' belong to people in the lower rung of our society. Especially at night. I'm not saying they are all 'bad' people, but the chances of riding along with some sketchy folks is pretty darn high. Even in places like 'parks or natural terrain' where a lot of women use to exercise/run, the risk of sexual assault or molestation is pretty high.
This is another of a doozie for you to correlate - think of a US city that's generally 'progressive' and you can easily surmise a higher rate of criminality and lawlessness. Interesting too, that many of these cities are 'home' to most of our 1-%er.
Oh, come on! I know mothers of two who knit toys and sell them on the Internet to European customers, making a lot of money, who give classes on Skype and make decent money, I know people cooking festive food for a lot of money, and there are a lot of people (both men and women) who left their low-paid jobs, did short-term courses and started working in IT, making a lot of money. Which means that there will always be someone who is eager to do nothing and just spread their legs for money (no, I'm being unfair to them, this is also hard work, and it has nothing to do with poverty. If you want to make money in Ukraine, you will find a way which won't insult your dignity, believe me. But of course it's easier to do nothing, complain and try to scam money out of people who want to feel like heroes coming and saving somebody from the depth of poverty and squalor
Poverty is the 'default' excuse for criminal activities used in the US, so why not Ukraine? :P
As for Chinese (or Asian) in our society - they are generally the least criminal offender, the most graduating students, the least in welfare or government assistance program, mostly enters in varying professional careers- if not small business owners, etc...so I can agree and understand your observation you mentioned.
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Using public Transport in FSU nations does not carry the stigma attached in some US cities and I have never been bothered in BY, UA, RU on a bus or metro ....
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As for Chinese (or Asian) in our society - they are generally the least criminal offender, the most graduating students, the least in welfare or government assistance program, mostly enters in varying professional careers- if not small business owners, etc...so I can agree and understand your observation you mentioned.
The Pacific Asians collectively have been the best group of immigrants in America since the waves of European immigrants. Some could argue they are better than the Europeans. The Asian people exhibit a high degree of respect, tolerance and self-reliance.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Asia-Pacific.png/450px-Asia-Pacific.png)
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Using public Transport in FSU nations does not carry the stigma attached in some US cities and I have never been bothered in BY, UA, RU on a bus or metro ....
True, mainly for someone 'looking like you'.
With a high degree of 'nationalism in-country', I cannot, and those as dark if not darker skinned as I am, can lay claim to such bliss. It's true in most central European countries I've spent time in as well like CzechR, Slovakia and Hungary notably.
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As for Chinese (or Asian) in our society - they are generally the least criminal offender . . .
But for those who are criminals . . . aren't they some of the most vicious of all? i.e. the Asian gang members.
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But for those who are criminals . . . aren't they some of the most vicious of all? i.e. the Asian gang members.
The only ones I am aware of here in LA proper are the Vietnamese youths of Santa Ana/Anaheim (little Saigon). Even the silly Bahala Na gang I once heard about. I say silly because these guys are one domineering Filipina woman away from getting their phsyt together.
But with only less than 6% of the US population, pros and cons, good v bad, the overall effect of Asian immigrants in the US is overwhelmingly 'positive' for the small slice they represent.
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I haven't been around for a while so the last thing I remember about BillyB is his amazing trip report a couple of years ago which kept me gripped for like many evenings (as well as multiple fights around it) :) )))))))))))))
I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. FSU women enjoyed it but "some" Western men couldn't handle it. I still have haters following me around.
I don't know if you read my update thread but here it is below. Posted some photos and been married almost 6 years now to the same girl from the report.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=19800.0
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Speaking of Ukraine being poor, and also drug dealers etc :) ))))) (there are so many experts on this question here, pardon my intrusion in the discussion :) )))) don't forget, that not only criminals are rich in modern Ukraine :) )) Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.
PS: Could you please catch me up on one thing: is Trenchcoat BillyB's gf/wife? :) I haven't been around for a while so the last thing I remember about BillyB is his amazing trip report a couple of years ago which kept me gripped for like many evenings (as well as multiple fights around it) :) ))))))))))))) - Ok, got it, Trenchcoat is not the RW who's writing the report, then can somebody give me a link to the report which is discussed, pls? :) )))))
Hi Nat!
The report this,side bar is pulled from is rw_recruiter's trip report titled- Pearl.of the Black Sea
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Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.
In Ukraine, developers get paid that much? How? Unless they do remote work for foreign based companies, I don't see how those salaries are justified in that economy where some physicians make as little as 5000UAH/month. I manage a team and we have one developer based out of Krakow, Poland in our office there and he doesn't get 6 or 8K USD and he is a damn good senior developer.
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Oh, come on! I know mothers of two who knit toys and sell them on the Internet to European customers, making a lot of money, who give classes on Skype and make decent money, I know people cooking festive food for a lot of money, and there are a lot of people (both men and women) who left their low-paid jobs, did short-term courses and started working in IT, making a lot of money. Which means that there will always be someone who is eager to do nothing and just spread their legs for money (no, I'm being unfair to them, this is also hard work :) )), and it has nothing to do with poverty. If you want to make money in Ukraine, you will find a way which won't insult your dignity, believe me. But of course it's easier to do nothing, complain and try to scam money out of people who want to feel like heroes coming and saving somebody from the depth of poverty and squalor :) )))
I dont' think anyone is saving them.
I know a woman who runs an organization for prostitutes, trying to get them off the streets, in Ukraine. That's how I know the problem is increasing.
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Speaking of Ukraine being poor, and also drug dealers etc :) ))))) (there are so many experts on this question here, pardon my intrusion in the discussion :) )))) don't forget, that not only criminals are rich in modern Ukraine :) )) Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.
I'm not referring to someone who can save up and take a trip to Paris. I was referring to real money - Bentleys, yachts, offshore bank accounts, etc.
$3000 may be a great salary in Ukraine, but the fact you view this as "rich" or that 1,000-1,500 is "upper middle class" proves my point.
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Speaking of Ukraine being poor, and also drug dealers etc :) ))))) (there are so many experts on this question here, pardon my intrusion in the discussion :) )))) don't forget, that not only criminals are rich in modern Ukraine :) )) Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.
PS: Could you please catch me up on one thing: is Trenchcoat BillyB's gf/wife? :) I haven't been around for a while so the last thing I remember about BillyB is his amazing trip report a couple of years ago which kept me gripped for like many evenings (as well as multiple fights around it) :) ))))))))))))) - Ok, got it, Trenchcoat is not the RW who's writing the report, then can somebody give me a link to the report which is discussed, pls? :) )))))
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Kiev?displayCurrency=USD
Average (Mean) Salary in Kiev as of 9-18-17, after tax is (This data is based on 6360 entries in the past 12 months from (443) different contributors.) (Ie the sample size is fairly robust) $304.73 US. However, as in all other jurisdictions I know of Nat, this average salary (after tax) is skewed right, as there are a small number of Kiev citizens who make wwwwaaayyyyy more than $304.73 per month. Thus, in this case, the Median (50th percentile) and Mean are a good bit different from each other. In this case, the Mean is irrelevant of this right skewed data. Focus on the Median Nat. I estimate the Median to be about $220 US or so per month after tax.
The 50th percentile in Kiev, Nat, is roughly $220 US per month.
Translation Nat....those salary numbers you just quoted are B.S. Complete gobbledeegoop.
You just made those numbers up out of your head because you were bored and wanted to make up some fake numbers. Why did you do that? I am sorry, but Boethius is a very reliable source of data like that. Evidently, you are not. I trust my figures and I trust Boe's figures. I am confident that close to 0% of IT developers in Kiev make $6K-$8K US per month or even $3K / month after tax.
I am sorry Nat. Good luck to you.
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No, there are IT people making excellent salaries in Ukraine. They're just not the majority of the populace. That's my point.
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You know, guys, this made me remember one thing. I sometimes watch a youtube channel of 2 girls who used to live in the USA and then relocated to China to work there as English teachers. It's quite interesting to watch their insights on cultural differences and all that stuff. But there was one video which was kinda revealing :) )) The girls were talking about the pros of living in China, and the main advantage they named was SAFETY :) ))) Which was kinda surprising, because knowing about the level of everything in China it's hard to imagine it to be a safe country. But I still remember the astonished facial expression of the girl from LA who kept saying: "Can you believe it, you can actually go by bus without being attacked, and you can walk at 10 pm and it's perfectly safe!" (it was eye-opening for me because I'd never think it's unsafe to use public transport in LA, btw).
I'm saying this because whether it's safe or not safe to walk around at night in Ukraine (it depends), it really has nothing to do with poverty, it's all about local culture, your personal behavior and a bit of luck.
Actually, it does have to do with poverty in this case, though I agree, being poor has nothing to do with crime.
The outdoor lights in the neighbourhood are not turned on by the city at night, as it tries to "save money". It is just so different from what I was used to in that neighbourhood.
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A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.
Your estimates are close to reality.
http://www.payscale.com/research/UA/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/UA/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary
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Your estimates are close to reality.
http://www.payscale.com/research/UA/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/UA/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary
Nats numbers are spot on actually. A dev can freelance on upwork for 25-30 USD per hour if he is average. I place guys at 4-5k USD per month all day long. No way to tell if they also work side gigs.....
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BillyB and Jumper, thanks guys for the links to trip reports, I guess I'll have some fun tonight :popcorn:
Poverty is the 'default' excuse for criminal activities used in the US, so why not Ukraine? :P
Exactly.
Based on my various life experience :D , I noticed that a lot of people use any excuses to justify their views on what's happening, the views they are comfortable with, even when it becomes clear than they might have been deceived or might have got something wrong. I have also learned that trying to persuade such people and explain them the obvious usually provokes denial, hostility and arguments like "you're lying" or "you don't know anything" :) So I'm just saying what I know living here, and it's up to each and every person what they take out of it :) ))
In Ukraine, developers get paid that much? How? Unless they do remote work for foreign based companies, I don't see how those salaries are justified in that economy where some physicians make as little as 5000UAH/month. I manage a team and we have one developer based out of Krakow, Poland in our office there and he doesn't get 6 or 8K USD and he is a damn good senior developer.
That's exactly what they do - they do remote work, but being employed by Ukrainian companies. There are multiple Ukrainian IT companies which specialize in doing outsourced stuff for Sweden, the Netherlands, the USA etc, the demand for such work is currently much higher than the supply, so a lot of people give up their jobs to become IT workers. University degree in the field used to be obligatory but now several months courses are just fine. Then you have to gain some experience, and after a year or two you're already a senior developer.
Speaking of inequality of salaries - a year ago it was an issue, but now other employers are trying to raise salaries in order to at least try to keep up. Anyway, they are no match for IT salaries, but they are going up steadily.
I know a woman who runs an organization for prostitutes, trying to get them off the streets, in Ukraine. That's how I know the problem is increasing.
You see, in any country there are places where social problems are quite acute. I'm sure there are problems with drug addicts and prostitution in the USA as well. If such people are your only source of information, obviously your whole idea of what things are like in this country might be a bit out of touch with the reality.
In fact, Ukrainian society is very uneven, and there is also this soviet stigma - it's never been considered embarrassing to be poor - vice versa, being poor has always been perceived as a kind of nobility, whereas being rich has been something to frown at. That's why a lot of people don't even try to get a bit richer or don't see other ways of doing that apart from stealing (as they have always been told - "that guy is reach because he's stealing"). However, luckily, the Internet and the global space for communication are gradually taking effect on people's mentality, and there are more and more people who understand that if you want something, you just have to do something, like start your own business, change your major, etc.
$3000 may be a great salary in Ukraine, but the fact you view this as "rich" or that 1,000-1,500 is "upper middle class" proves my point.
Well, you have to take everything into account :) First, the figures mentioned are the money you get after you pay the tax (well, if you pay it at all, you know how it is here ;) ). Second, prices for everything are extremely cheap. An apartment in a newly build building is 25k + remodeling, so if you earn 3k, you can totally live off 500usd and have enough money to buy an apartment in 10 months, without any mortgages. We don't have high property tax. Utility bills have gone up, but they are still affordable if you live in a modern building. Public transport is cheap as shit (it looks like shit as well, of course :) )). A one-way ticket is 0,1 usd. 10 cents. So basically if you earn 3k, you will have trouble finding where to spend it. Actually, that's one of the problems now - that people started getting a lot of money, but have no culture of spending it, and thus just waste it on expensive restaurants etc.
So, surely for the USA 3k salary might sound a bit ridiculous, but having a lot of friends and actually relatives there in the states I know how much you have to pay in tax/insurance/other payments monthly, and here you don't, so the final figures are not that different ;)
Average (Mean) Salary in Kiev as of 9-18-17, after tax is (This data is based on 6360 entries in the past 12 months from (443) different contributors.) (Ie the sample size is fairly robust) $304.73 US. However, as in all other jurisdictions I know of Nat, this average salary (after tax) is skewed right, as there are a small number of Kiev citizens who make wwwwaaayyyyy more than $304.73 per month. Thus, in this case, the Median (50th percentile) and Mean are a good bit different from each other. In this case, the Mean is irrelevant of this right skewed data. Focus on the Median Nat. I estimate the Median to be about $220 US or so per month after tax.
The 50th percentile in Kiev, Nat, is roughly $220 US per month.
Oh my :D :D :D Have you ever heard of tax evasion? 10 out of 100 people show their REAL salaries to the government ;) So how can you trust this statistics? :)))) Besides, the rent for an average apartment in Kiev is 250$ (a studio, 40 sq m), so if the average salary is 220, who can then afford such rent? ;) And I gave you the price for an average flat, not for a good one - most of my friends in Kiev pay 350-400 usd in rent for small flats. Most of them have their own business or work in IT or are self-employed, but there are also those who work for multinationals or local but wealthy companies.
Translation Nat....those salary numbers you just quoted are B.S. Complete gobbledeegoop.
:D :D :D :popcorn:
You just made those numbers up out of your head because you were bored and wanted to make up some fake numbers. Why did you do that? I am sorry, but Boethius is a very reliable source of data like that. Evidently, you are not. I trust my figures and I trust Boe's figures. I am confident that close to 0% of IT developers in Kiev make $6K-$8K US per month or even $3K / month after tax.
Totally agree with you - after all, what do I know, living here and earning money here ;) )) But that's exactly what I started this post with, so let's just relax and enjoy the performance ;D :popcorn:
I am sorry Nat. Good luck to you.
Nothing to be sorry about, I'm having a lot of fun, please continue ;) ))
Nats numbers are spot on actually. A dev can freelance on upwork for 25-30 USD per hour if he is average. I place guys at 4-5k USD per month all day long. No way to tell if they also work side gigs.....
Oh, they do :) ))
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I trust my figures and I trust Boe's figures. I am confident that close to 0% of IT developers in Kiev make $6K-$8K US per month or even $3K / month after tax.
(http://i.imgur.com/090DcBz.png)
There you go. Keep in mind a remote dev can bill multiple clients as long as they produce.
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The editor Anya is friends with who works for a local movie company here in Odessa was just offered a job for Netflix. She will now work both, and of course only report one as income. This is how it works in Ukraine.
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An apartment in a newly build building is 25k + remodeling, so if you earn 3k, you can totally live off 500usd and have enough money to buy an apartment in 10 months, without any mortgages. We don't have high property tax. Utility bills have gone up, but they are still affordable if you live in a modern building. Public transport is cheap as shit (it looks like shit as well, of course :) )). A one-way ticket is 0,1 usd. 10 cents. So basically if you earn 3k, you will have trouble finding where to spend it.
Not entirely sure what you are smokin. Please let RWD know of any central new build apartments in Kiev for $25,000 US.
You are correct about utility bills & most yellow buses are charging 5 to 6 ₴ in Kivy
So, surely for the USA 3k salary might sound a bit ridiculous, but having a lot of friends and actually relatives there in the states I know how much you have to pay in tax/insurance/other payments monthly, and here you don't, so the final figures are not that different ;)
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Oh my :D :D :D Have you ever heard of tax evasion? 10 out of 100 people show their REAL salaries to the government ;) So how can you trust this statistics? :)))) Besides, the rent for an average apartment in Kiev is 250$ (a studio, 40 sq m), so if the average salary is 220, who can then afford such rent? ;) And I gave you the price for an average flat, not for a good one - most of my friends in Kiev pay 350-400 usd in rent for small flats. Most of them have their own business or work in IT or are self-employed, but there are also those who work for multinationals or local but wealthy companies.
Please inform RWD what a flat to rent in Tetris Hall or Skyline of Kiev/Kivy cost per month as well as cost to purchase outright, unfinished.
While I agree many are self employed. When you are employed by a Western facing firm your income is fully reported.
Please stop with this nonsense.
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The attitude displayed by Nat is why Ukraine will remain a mostly failed state, and why it will never be accepted as part of the EU. I can't blame her or other Ukrainians though, when they have the example of the grifters running the country at all levels.
Don't get old or sick in Ukraine. Don't expect water you can drink straight out of the tap, or great roads all across the country, or a bureaucracy that runs efficiently or bribe free.
MIL's utilities are about $25 a month, and they are subsidized by the state. Her pension is about $50.
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n fact, Ukrainian society is very uneven, and there is also this soviet stigma - it's never been considered embarrassing to be poor - vice versa, being poor has always been perceived as a kind of nobility, whereas being rich has been something to frown at. That's why a lot of people don't even try to get a bit richer or don't see other ways of doing that apart from stealing (as they have always been told - "that guy is reach because he's stealing"). However, luckily, the Internet and the global space for communication are gradually taking effect on people's mentality, and there are more and more people who understand that if you want something, you just have to do something, like start your own business, change your major, etc.
It has never been embarrassing to be poor in the West, either. I doubt it is an "acceptance" of poverty at play. Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur, nor should they be.
In Soviet times, being poor was not perceived as "noble". Why do you think all peasants were clamouring to live in cities? Why do you think people joined the CPSU? Out of a deep belief in Bolshevism?
I understand this is how you see it, and I think your statement about the mentality being Soviet is accurate. However poverty is not the reason. It is because anyone who had such ambitions was jailed. You can't beat initiative out of people for seven decades and expect it to change overnight.
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Please let RWD know of any central new build apartments in Kiev for $25,000 US.
Nat didn't mention the new apartments are central. Could be on the outskirts of the city. I bought a new apartment in an elite neighborhood in Ivano-Frankivsk last year for $19,000. The dollar tripled in value there since the war started. Nat also said "+ remodeling". My apartment was a concrete box. Had to put up money to do the kitchen, bathroom, floor, etc....
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We paid around $100,000 for 3 room apartment in new building near new US Embassy in Kyiv back in 2014. That was just the shell. Put in another $50,000 or so plus a lot of free labor from me, friends and relatives that might have been worth $30,000 or more.
Standard old 2 room Khrushchyovka's still go for $60,000 or so in outer districts of Kyiv.
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An old house with land in "central", not center, Kiev for under $5000
http://www.uaproperty.com/ua-offers/central/kiev/low-cost-house-for-sale-in-ukrainian-countryside/
A new build luxury apartment in "central", not center, Kiev for under $20,000. I can't say Nat is wrong on this. She lives there after all. Good time to invest, rent the place out, and sell when it's a seller's market which will happen after Russia backs off.
http://www.uaproperty.com/ua-offers/central/kiev/new-build-apartments-for-sale-in-kiev/
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An old house with land in "central", not center, Kiev for under $5000
http://www.uaproperty.com/ua-offers/central/kiev/low-cost-house-for-sale-in-ukrainian-countryside/
Billy, it is not central Kiev . . . it is central Ukraine.
And Kiev has very little to do with it, as it's 130 Km away.
There are a ton of such houses available for that price out in the countryside of Ukraine.
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Kiev is a big place. Here's a brand new unfinished apartment for $20,000. Check out the Google map. It's 4 miles from the center of Kiev and 3 miles from the airport. You can find these prices Nat mentioned in Kiev. Sometimes guys are too trusting of FSU women but in this case, they're not. Trust and verify is easy in this case. Google helps find the answers.
http://www.dimdom.kiev.ua/en/37533-kvartira-sale-Kiev-Goloseevskiy-Raketnaya-ul.html
http://www.dimdom.kiev.ua/en/sale-kvartira/Kiev/p_2#orderby_pricea
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A better 'feel' for the rea estate market would be dom.ria.com or OLX.ua. Normal values for an shell apt are much higher than the 'cherry picked' 20K shown as an example.
I've got 2 apts. on the left bank that were shells when I bought them and after finishing they are worth about what I've got invested. No 'Blue Sky' , just a stipend for rent. The political situation is still too IFFY to consider being a good time to invest IMO.
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Nat didn't mention the new apartments are central. Could be on the outskirts of the city. I bought a new apartment in an elite neighborhood in Ivano-Frankivsk last year for $19,000. The dollar tripled in value there since the war started. Nat also said "+ remodeling". My apartment was a concrete box. Had to put up money to do the kitchen, bathroom, floor, etc....
BillyB has basically said what I was going to say. Of course it's not in the city center, but it's IN Kiev.
We paid around $100,000 for 3 room apartment in new building near new US Embassy in Kyiv back in 2014. That was just the shell. Put in another $50,000 or so plus a lot of free labor from me, friends and relatives that might have been worth $30,000 or more.
Standard old 2 room Khrushchyovka's still go for $60,000 or so in outer districts of Kyiv.
My condolences :( Prices in 2014 were really overrated... Personally I also made an unwise purchase which I've regretted ever since. I could buy 3 for the same money now.
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2 (http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2)
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-twin-house-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2 (http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-twin-house-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2)
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-2-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2 (http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-2-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2)
These are links to prices for appartments in new buildings in Kiev which are being built right now. The average price for a studio is stated below the pictures. As I said, it's about 25000$.
Not entirely sure what you are smokin.
[...]
Please stop with this nonsense.
That's the talk from a guy from the Netherlands ;D Honey, not everybody's smoking something all the time :popcorn: And if you need some info, there is a handy site which is called Google, so go and google it yourself, because I have no desire to hold a conversation in such a way and I don't really care whether you believe me or not :)
It has never been embarrassing to be poor in the West, either. I doubt it is an "acceptance" of poverty at play. Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur, nor should they be.
No, you missed my point. It used to be and for some it still is embarrassing to be rich. Some people still believe that even if they want it, they are unable to reach it, although, as my examples above show, they are, if they make an effort and stop complaining instead of doing something.
The attitude displayed by Nat is why Ukraine will remain a mostly failed state, and why it will never be accepted as part of the EU. I can't blame her or other Ukrainians though, when they have the example of the grifters running the country at all levels.
The transition process has to take a while. You can't turn a post-soviet country into a European one with the swing of a magic wand. I'd say that it even got much worse in the last 3 years - I've never seen so much corruption on all levels before. But that doesn't mean that people are getting poorer - vice versa, which is a kind of paradox, and that was the subject of our discussion, right?
Don't get old or sick in Ukraine. Don't expect water you can drink straight out of the tap, or great roads all across the country, or a bureaucracy that runs efficiently or bribe free.
Sadly, but all this is absolutely true. That's why a lot of people want to relocate, again, not because of poverty. Because even if you have a lot of money, you can be killed by unskilled doctors when you turn for medical help.
So, I'm not telling life in Ukraine is all moonlight and roses, but it always fascinates me how people like getting diverted from what was said initially and start providing the arguments which have nothing to do with the original post ;) Standards of living weren't the subject of discussion - it was about salaries, the info on which was totally out of touch with the reality :)
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A better 'feel' for the rea estate market would be dom.ria.com or OLX.ua. Normal values for an shell apt are much higher than the 'cherry picked' 20K shown as an example.
Cherry picked or not, it is what it is. Nat was right. Maybe people could ask her to find good deals for an investment since many couldn't find the deals themselves. Dollar has tripled in value since the war started. Risk is involved but rewards can be high.
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No, you missed my point. It used to be and for some it still is embarrassing to be rich. Some people still believe that even if they want it, they are unable to reach it, although, as my examples above show, they are, if they make an effort and stop complaining instead of doing something.
No, I didn't miss your point.
Ideology ensured the non elites could not become rich. How could you become rich if you were forced to work for the state, at a salary determined by that state, and were arrested if you sold anything? Where owning a business, or even selling flowers on the street was illegal? The only way to become rich in the USSR was by becoming a party member. No party member was ashamed of his/her riches. Quite the contrary, actually, though showing it off was strongly discouraged.
The transition process has to take a while. You can't turn a post-soviet country into a European one with the swing of a magic wand. I'd say that it even got much worse in the last 3 years - I've never seen so much corruption on all levels before. But that doesn't mean that people are getting poorer - vice versa, which is a kind of paradox, and that was the subject of our discussion, right?
By all objective criteria, they are getting poorer.
Sadly, but all this is absolutely true. That's why a lot of people want to relocate, again, not because of poverty. Because even if you have a lot of money, you can be killed by unskilled doctors when you turn for medical help.
So, I'm not telling life in Ukraine is all moonlight and roses, but it always fascinates me how people like getting diverted from what was said initially and start providing the arguments which have nothing to do with the original post ;) Standards of living weren't the subject of discussion - it was about salaries, the info on which was totally out of touch with the reality :)
You diverted as well. Look at the header of the thread. But if this "fascinates" you, you are easily fascinated. :)
Nevertheless, you are cherry picking on salaries. Most Ukrainians are not earning $3000 a month as IT specialists.
I think people want to leave because of corruption, and the lack of a future.
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Look at the header of the thread.
Msmob didn't name this thread. Do you know who named it? ;) I think it should've been named "Msmob and JayH can't handle a few posts by others and go ape shit on others in a trip report just like Jone did in his own trip report." I like that better.
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Msmob didn't name this thread. Do you know who named it? ;) I think it should've been named "Msmob and JayH can't handle a few posts by others and go ape shit on others in a trip report just like Jone did in his own trip report." I like that better.
Silly Billy - there is no need to keep proving what a dunce you are == everyone has already seen it.
Needless to say-you have missed the point on why posts were moved ( more should be) as they were not appropriate in an ongoing TR.
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JayH, does it hurt you that Trenchcoat gets more action than you're getting? When you get this man woman relationship thing figured out, come back and let us know, will ya?
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Silly Billy - there is no need to keep proving what a dunce you are == everyone has already seen it.
Needless to say-you have missed the point on why posts were moved ( more should be) as they were not appropriate in an ongoing TR.
They weren't moved. Moby started this particular thread.
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They weren't moved. Moby started this particular thread.
Thankyou for the clarification.
Now can you move all of SillyB and TC's stupidity here ? ;D
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JayH, does it hurt you that Trenchcoat gets more action than you're getting? When you get this man woman relationship thing figured out, come back and let us know, will ya?
Really Silly Billy-- there is no need to keep proving what an idiot you are/ :cluebat:
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They weren't moved. Moby started this particular thread.
I believe you Bo. I seen a few of JayH's rants left behind in the trip report. Only Moby and JayH are on topic here based on the thread's title. They really need to get to a happy place.
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Only Moby and JayH are on topic here based on the thread's title. They really need to get to a happy place.
Can't speak for JayH but I'm perfectly happy to counter your more bizarre contentions.. *I* chose the thread title - hoping you'd HAVE A CLUE and stop polluting Rw's Odesa trip report thread ...
Why is it some folks think correctly pointing out howlers means I'd be 'unhappy' or a 'hater' ? :)
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Can't speak for JayH but I'm perfectly happy to counter your more bizarre contentions.. *I* chose the thread title - hoping you'd HAVE A CLUE and stop polluting Rw's Odesa trip report thread ...
Why is it some folks think correctly pointing out howlers means I'd be 'unhappy' or a 'hater' ? :)
And what did the dumb arse do? Keep on interrupting the other thread with his inane comments ! needless to say== so did the idiot clown Trenchcoat . :cluebat:
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http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2 (http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2)
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-twin-house-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2 (http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-twin-house-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2)
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-2-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2 (http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-2-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2)
These are links to prices for appartments in new buildings in Kiev which are being built right now. The average price for a studio is stated below the pictures. As I said, it's about 25000$.
Sweet Pea,
All 3 links you noted are a healthy walk to the Chernihkyka Metro station on the right bank. It is about the same as calling the Bijlmemeer part of Amsterdam or Dartford part of London.
Here is a link to an apartment for sale in an existing building in a good section of Kiev, 70+ sq. meters. 1970's build. And needs updating
http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodam-3-h-komnatnuyu-na-ul-panasa-mirnogo-11-IDu1zov.html#bbf785402f
This is real, and three times the fantasy you are trying to project.
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Here is a link to an apartment for sale in an existing building in a good section of Kiev, 70+ sq. meters. 1970's build. And needs updating
http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodam-3-h-komnatnuyu-na-ul-panasa-mirnogo-11-IDu1zov.html#bbf785402f
Old apartments in the center of the city can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. New modern unfinished apartments can be bought of under $25,000 easily in various areas of the cities I've visited. You're right and Nat is right.
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Sweet Pea,
All 3 links you noted are a healthy walk to the Chernihkyka Metro station on the right bank. It is about the same as calling the Bijlmemeer part of Amsterdam or Dartford part of London.
Here is a link to an apartment for sale in an existing building in a good section of Kiev, 70+ sq. meters. 1970's build. And needs updating
http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodam-3-h-komnatnuyu-na-ul-panasa-mirnogo-11-IDu1zov.html#bbf785402f (http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodam-3-h-komnatnuyu-na-ul-panasa-mirnogo-11-IDu1zov.html#bbf785402f)
This is real, and three times the fantasy you are trying to project.
I used to live in an old luxurious building in the very center of Donetsk. Now I'm staying in a newly built apartment building, let's say, on the outskirts of another city, on the 15th floor, with a view over half the region :) )) It has no problems with water pressure, ventilation, insulation, the stairs hall is cleaned every day, including the windows, and there is a round-the-clock concierge service, as well as fast modern elevators and just amazing fresh air from the nearest forest. [size=78%][/size]I really hope the war in Donetsk will finish and I'll be able to come back home, but I don't know how I'm gonna live in this old luxurious building in the very center after I have already tried a much better option.
The one which you've provided link to is not a luxurious building, it's a piece of panel crap, with tiny dangerous elevators which are about to fall down, cold, ecologically unfriendly and with constant problems with everything, including cockroaches. The apartment itself hasn't been renovated for, like, ages, which means you'll have to pay more money just to remove the junk out of it. So, there is no demand for such crap, especially for 75k dollars, the price is absolutely unreal. Actually, there is a trend all over Ukraine now not to buy flats in such buildings for any price, because they are totally worn out technically. So let's do an experiment - just save the link which you're found and check on it from time to time. It's not gonna be sold in a month, nor in half a year, nor in a year - there's no demand for such flats at such prices.
Although, I don't know why I'm explaining you these obvious things :) ))
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I used to live in an old luxurious building in the very center of Donetsk. Now I'm staying in a newly built apartment building, let's say, on the outskirts of another city, on the 15th floor, with a view over half the region :) )) It has no problems with water pressure, ventilation, insulation, the stairs hall is cleaned every day, including the windows, and there is a round-the-clock concierge service, as well as fast modern elevators and just amazing fresh air from the nearest forest. [size=78%][/size]I really hope the war in Donetsk will finish and I'll be able to come back home, but I don't know how I'm gonna live in this old luxurious building in the very center after I have already tried a much better option.
The one which you've provided link to is not a luxurious building, it's a piece of panel crap, with tiny dangerous elevators which are about to fall down, cold, ecologically unfriendly and with constant problems with everything, including cockroaches. The apartment itself hasn't been renovated for, like, ages, which means you'll have to pay more money just to remove the junk out of it. So, there is no demand for such crap, especially for 75k dollars, the price is absolutely unreal. Actually, there is a trend all over Ukraine now not to buy flats in such buildings for any price, because they are totally worn out technically. So let's do an experiment - just save the link which you're found and check on it from time to time. It's not gonna be sold in a month, nor in half a year, nor in a year - there's no demand for such flats at such prices.
Although, I don't know why I'm explaining you these obvious things :) ))
Thank you.
You just managed confirm that you earlier statement is a lie. It is not possible to purchase an apartment in the center of Kiev for $25,000.=
Have a good day.
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Thank you.
You just managed confirm that you earlier statement is a lie. It is not possible to purchase an apartment in the center of Kiev for $25,000.=
Have a good day.
I haven't read anywhere where Nat said an apartment can be bought in the center/downtown Kiev for 25K. I do know brand new apartments can be bought in large cities for under 20k. It's funny how we hear and read things differently.
I can imagine men going on a date with Nat and react to her mentioning how much IT specialists can make and how cheap apartments can be bought.
1) First guy listens and quietly think's Nat is stupid and doesn't understand reality. He doesn't ask her for a second date.
2) Second guy accuses Nat of being a liar and gets into an argument with her. No second date for Nat.
3) Third guy tells Nat her mind is so sexy. He's turned on to the point he's kissing her all over on the first date but Nat refuses any advances past third base because she's not that type of girl. On a future date the man proposes marriage because he wants a girl who'll triple his money since Nat knows how to find all the deals. Nat accepts and their bank account balloons. They live happily ever after.
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Nat, Used as reference properties in Kiev, so I assumed. My misatke.
An apartment in a newly build building is 25k + remodeling, so if you earn 3k, you can totally live off 500usd and have enough money to buy an apartment in 10 months, without any mortgages. We don't have high property tax. Utility bills have gone up, but they are still affordable if you live in a modern building.
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I've read that too but it's missing the word "center" which is basically downtown in an American city and cost skyrocket there. If Nat said "center", I would question her too. Center apartments, although old, can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Nat also has a point those old apartments require a lot of maintenance. I also wonder if those old pipes delivering water are free of lead and other harmful metals.
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I haven't read anywhere where Nat said an apartment can be bought in the center/downtown Kiev for 25K. I do know brand new apartments can be bought in large cities for under 20k. It's funny how we hear and read things differently.
I can imagine men going on a date with Nat and react to her mentioning how much IT specialists can make and how cheap apartments can be bought.
1) First guy listens and quietly think's Nat is stupid and doesn't understand reality. He doesn't ask her for a second date.
2) Second guy accuses Nat of being a liar and gets into an argument with her. No second date for Nat.
3) Third guy tells Nat her mind is so sexy. He's turned on to the point he's kissing her all over on the first date but Nat refuses any advances past third base because she's not that type of girl. On a future date the man proposes marriage because he wants a girl who'll triple his money since Nat knows how to find all the deals. Nat accepts and their bank account balloons. They live happily ever after.
Nat, single and looking? ;D
no no not for me, Tanya would eat my balls for breakfast..and I am quite attached to them..
but I do have a very single friend..
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The vast majority of the piping I have seen is copper. There are some certain quirks that make the older flats funky. Wood floors laid down with tar/pitch.
Allot depends on the other residents and occupiers. Not much different than any where else. Oddly some have great enterances and others are dumps. Prerevolution buildings in downtown Kivy, Petersburg or the few that still exist in Moscow are amazing.
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Thank you.
You just managed confirm that you earlier statement is a lie. It is not possible to purchase an apartment in the center of Kiev for $25,000.=
Have a good day.
I haven't read anywhere where Nat said an apartment can be bought in the center/downtown Kiev for 25K.
Nat, Used as reference properties in Kiev, so I assumed. My misatke.
Your mistake is to argue with Nat ;D Especially when you fail in reading her posts attentively, then start assuming various BS and then get freaked out by the BS you've assumed :cluebat:
1) First guy listens and quietly think's Nat is stupid and doesn't understand reality. He doesn't ask her for a second date.
2) Second guy accuses Nat of being a liar and gets into an argument with her. No second date for Nat.
3) Third guy tells Nat her mind is so sexy. He's turned on to the point he's kissing her all over on the first date but Nat refuses any advances past third base because she's not that type of girl. On a future date the man proposes marriage because he wants a girl who'll triple his money since Nat knows how to find all the deals. Nat accepts and their bank account balloons. They live happily ever after.
:D :D :D
Nat also has a point those old apartments require a lot of maintenance. I also wonder if those old pipes delivering water are free of lead and other harmful metals.
I'm not sure about lead, I HOPE there isn't any, but the rest of Mendeleev's table... It looks like this:
http://mtdata.ru/u24/photo6C0D/20133988587-0/original.jpg (http://mtdata.ru/u24/photo6C0D/20133988587-0/original.jpg)
(although this particular one is from Russia [size=78%] :D [/size])
Nat, single and looking? ;D no no not for me, Tanya would eat my balls for breakfast..and I am quite attached to them.. but I do have a very single friend..
Well, actually Nat wasn't looking, Nat was just having fun, but if you have a really nice single friend, then Nat might consider... ;D :P
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Well, actually Nat wasn't looking, Nat was just having fun, but if you have a really nice single friend, then Nat might consider... ;D :P [/size]
Why cut out half the men ??
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Why cut out half the men ??
I assume you mean the single part :cheesy:
ML wants a piece of this to I think..
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So vast majority if crash and burns at such suspect agencies , is over a METHODOLOGY,
of a guy chasing a girl out of his league.
This methodology, wouldn't be generally successful in his home town, at a free site of FSU
women, or with fsu women he met at the park.
If he dated FSU women his age, in relative attractiveness to his looks and and status, it
would not matter if he met them off a ppl site ,a free site or the park, we wouldn't even
be having this discussion.
So to think the crappy ppl.sites, are the real heart if the issue cracks me up.
The men's expectations are.
They travel to a poor economy, a culture and society where corruption is a way of
life and accepted as status quo, then think *where* they find the woman has much
bearing on any given woman's ethics.
The reason guys should avoid ppl, is because they are like moths to the flame, they
write the ten hottest youngest women, or as close to it as the personally dare, and
wonder why there are issues. They can't bring themselves to correspond with the
thousands and thousands of women in just one city on such sites they'd consider
average.
I know a pile in Nikoleav that are quite attractive, early to late 30s and never get
a sincere letter in 3 or 4 years. They then typical give up, as they never really felt
it possible anyway.
To label all agency girls as unethical, over the percent that are mercenary, is silly.
To wade through the ppl bad agency crap, we say is too tough.
Its, only too tough because men are men.
I married someone 19 years younger, and breathtakingly beautiful inside and out,
so admit the glass house .
My wife was 28 when we met.
So don't take it harshly, I'm throwing pebbles not stones!
But I don't hide behind crappy excuses, or blame mercenary girls for any failure
of my own. I own my actions, every one of them, poor or not, and frankly had no
problems telling a good person from a mercenary one.
If I did not, I'd have mitigated my losses and taken my lumps.
In fact I'd have probably felt *good on ya girl* and know I was as culpable as she,
and just moved on.
It's about attitude. Its about realistic expectations,
And it's about knowing what you have to offer as a partner
(very little of that worth is measured financially)
I've made decent money some years ad zero some years,means nothing.
My wife has worked ,and would gladly carry us, if I was unable to at any given time.
She's never had to ,but the attitude of a team, a partnership in life as a family is
fundamental to how she thinks,reacts, lives.
As long as its a husband she loves & respects this is typical of an FSU woman s mentality .
So guys going on about a subset of 20 yo smokinhotkovas, being totally mercenary,
is actually a bit amusing .
These are not the guys a model looking 20 to 25yo NYC or LA socialite is regularly dating,
and within that group of girls ,there is a pretty good percent of mercenary status climbers.
So yes guys should avoid flying to NyC to meet them, unless buying very high end items
is their idea if true romance right?
Wow AJ,
You posted at least a dozen gems of wisdom there and some of them huge flawless
diamonds. Guys should print this out and post it on their refrigerator door.
They can't bring themselves to correspond with the thousands and thousands
of women in just one city on such sites they'd consider average.
Here is the thing. Those girls would only be considered average compared to the
hottest 5-10% of the girls on the website who have the luxury of photo shop.
If they saw those "average girls" in real life at a barbecue they would
probably p!ss themselves and be too nervous to walk up and talk to them.
Yet while in Ukraine they think that they can get a top 5% girl when they can't
and they are spoiling their real chances with the other 95%.
Lastly
I also see you are still wearing your motocross gloves and goggles (last tear off from
recent mud race still not torn off) while you post from your not yet smart phone. :D
I am hoping that when they print out your post and put it on their refrigerator door
for reading every day that this will help them learn to decipher messages from FSUW
with broken English. ;D
I corrected some of the grammar and changed the size above in case anybody is
smart enough to print out AJ's post quoted above. I am going to copy and paste it
in the Pursuing FSUW 101 thread here
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.new#new
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Your mistake is to argue with Nat
There is no point in arguing - but if you wish to publish BS and dishonesty expect some one will note it. :popcorn:
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There is no point in arguing - but if you wish to publish BS and dishonesty expect some one will note it. :popcorn:
Oh, come on, don't embarrass yourself that much, it's so pathetic that I'm starting to feel ashamed for you :D
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How is he embarrassing himself? His wife is a realtor in Kyiv, so I assume he knows the real estate market there.
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His wife is a realtor in Kyiv, so I assume he knows the real estate market there.
My wife speaks fluent Ukrainian but none of it rubbed off on me. I've met my employees wives and I wouldn't hire them to work construction because although they live with a construction worker, they don't automatically become experts without experience.
I bought a brand new apartment in a fancy apartment building in a major city in Ukraine for 19k. It's possible to get those prices with a strong dollar. If I didn't have experience buying, I would've been shocked by Nat's claim an apartment in Kiev can be bought for 25k.
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My wife speaks fluent Ukrainian but none of it rubbed off on me.
Assuredly, some of us won't be surprised....Some of us are interested in speaking foreign languages - as it makes prolonged stays and meeting the friends of one's loved one so much more interesting and get-togethers less boring
I've met my employees wives and I wouldn't hire them to work construction because although they live with a construction worker, they don't automatically become experts without experience.
Was that supposed to be an affirmation analogy ? BdHvA's goes to and spends a great deal of time in Ukraine - not just Kyiv - whilst -
probably - a construction worker might not talk about what he did with his wife - fellow professionals do tend to share their days
I bought a brand new apartment in a fancy apartment building in a major city in Ukraine for 19k. It's possible to get those prices with a strong dollar. If I didn't have experience buying, I would've been shocked by Nat's claim an apartment in Kiev can be bought for 25k.
I am buying place in Sochi - I wouldn't claim it made me an expert on the Moscow market - 'coz I'm not even one re Sochi ..
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How is he embarrassing himself? His wife is a realtor in Kyiv, so I assume he knows the real estate market there.
Boe, first of all let me say that despite all my trolling smiles I do respect you and I think that sometimes you have quite interesting insights! So what I'm gonna say no is not to tease you or something, but it just because it really is so. The matter is, that all you, guys, don't fully understand what realtor in Ukraine is. As far as I've heard realtors really do their job in the USA and that's why you maybe don't know about the attitude to realtors here, their way of conducting business, and, what is the most important, their price policies. All these factors have lead to the trend where there are tons of ad boards on the Internet now where people do not want to have anything to do with realtors, who tremendously exaggerate prices to get higher royalties, and conduct the purchases on their own directly with each other, without any mediators.
As you may have noticed, I spent some time and provided you the links for the newly built flats INSIDE Kiev, not in the city center (because I never mentioned the city center), which match what I had said before. I could spend some more time and give you more links, but am I motivated enough to do that? ;) All I get in return is "you're a liar" and "your info is bullshit", and who from?! From a person, who appears to be connected with a realtor! And I couldn't understand where all this aggression was coming from!!! :) ))) It's because I'm spoiling the potential business, as it turns out. So I guess those of you who are planning on buying some real estate have enough sound mind to google everything themselves, research the field and see who is right and who is a lying bullshitter. I, on my side, have no wish or time to waste to prove that the sun is yellow and the grass is green :) After all, why would I care? I don't have any business to protect, I'm just practicing my English, sharing TRUE info with you along the way :) )))
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For those who want to look for themselves on Kyiv prices.
http://fn.ua/listing.php?rid=129&p=1&sort=0&pricemin=0&pricemax=0&pricecur=2&rooms=0&acomm=off&stxt=
http://www.lun.ua/
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Flats CLOSE TO THE CITY CENTER, WITH REMODELING:
http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodayu-2k-kvartiru-v-pecherskom-r-ne-IDuDoGs.html#925448f19c;promoted (http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodayu-2k-kvartiru-v-pecherskom-r-ne-IDuDoGs.html#925448f19c;promoted) (2-roomed flat)
http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/1-kom-na-pecherske-ul-primachenko-8-b-IDuXr2a.html#925448f19c (http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/1-kom-na-pecherske-ul-primachenko-8-b-IDuXr2a.html#925448f19c) (1-roomed office flat)
And I'm not gonna participate in this discussion anymore :)
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We all should know that throwing out random examples of prices for apartments or any real estate proves nothing.
The major factors affecting real estate values are many, foremost being location (country, city and within the city), size, condition of property, growth/decline of local economy, etc.
Probably all who have shown examples here are correct, but we can't draw any comparisons or conclusions because we don't know about the factors I listed above.
The comparisons being thrown around here have been terrible because of difference in cities, location within a particular city, condition, size, rennovations needed or not, etc.
I can firmly state that most of us here would not want to own and live in any apartment in the areas of Kyiv outside the center that would cost us less than $50,000 and was in 'move in' condition (i.e. not needing extensive rennovation).
My spouse owns 5 properties in Ukraine.
The least expensive is a 2 room apartment on a fairly quiet street in the area of National Technical University of Ukraine (formerly Kyiv Polytechnic Institute).
This is on 4th floor in an old Khrushchevka building with no elevator. She bought in 2004 for around $24,000 and put in around $6,000 to bring it up to 'Euro standards.'
At the height of housing boom/bubble similar units were selling for $70,000 plus.
During the bust, the prices dropped to around $45,000 - $50,000 and are now selling for $57,000 - $62,000.
Mini bus routes are a couple of blocks away, the nearest metro station (Politekhnichnyi Instytut) is a brisk 40 minute walk away.
Now again, this apartment and its related price CANNOT be compared to another apartment in ANY other location in Kyiv, let alone in another city in Ukraine.
However, I can again repeat that most here would not want to own or live in an apartment in a decent location near but outside the city center of Kyiv that would cost less than this after adding in needed rennovations.
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Well, Trench ...
Too 'busy' to repeat your question to Beel ? ;)
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Sure, but you yourself took 9 years to find the right one. Time over again what would you do differently if you were looking to shave a bit of time of this and get to the one quicker?
I spent a lot of time doing things the wrong way. I assumed that because of my
dashing good looks, tall rugged handsome appearance, amazing charm and wit
that none of the rules applied to me.
I chased girls who were too young, I chased girls from pay per letter sites and
I learned along the way. I constantly looked back, identified the causes of my
setbacks and constantly improved my approach, my tactics and who I pursued.
I didn't make the same mistakes twice, I made new ones.
I've written extensively about it here on this forum. You can probably get the best
information in this thread.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.0
At the moment I simply do not have the time for Skype, etc I have to get some work done and get myself in a better position for this whole game, get my crap together, that I am working on at the moment and should be sorted in the next few months. For me I really want to get over there and meet a lot of women otherwise I think I am just picking one at a time and its going to take a long time - skype is just spending a lot of time doing that. Until I see that there is real undeniable chemistry face to face its just more time spent on the wrong women, time I can do without wasting.
RW here may or may have not hit it lucky, he enjoyed himself and indeed I have enjoyed myself when out in Ukraine, but end of the day finding the right girl is where I want to be.
If you don't have time for skype then you don't have time to pursue an FSUW.
You might be a good candidate for a visit many trip when you get the time.
Write ONE letter to 50-100 girls and ask them for tea. Most of the girls will
ignore you and then you meet the girls who say yes. NEVER MEET A GIRL
TWICE no matter how hot she is unless you think she might be the future
Mrs Trench.
Once you find ONE girl who might be the future Mrs Trench to pursue, you
are going to have to use Skype extensively. If you don't have time then you
don't have the time to pursue a foreign girl.
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Beel
Sorry, I was posting while you were writing. I copied and pasted his question
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Sorry, I was posting while you were writing. I copied and pasted his question
It's kind of you to indulge him... You've just told him what others have concluded ..
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It's kind of you to indulge him... You've just told him what others have concluded ..
7 Members and 42 Guests are viewing this topic.
We often tend to get really specific with advice. I try to write so that others
can glean information as well. That way I can justify the time and effort I put
into some of my posts, when it's likely to be ignored.
Udachi!
Bill
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It should be pointed out that the preferred method of conversation (and video) is Viber. Second from women I know is Whatsapp. Skype comes a distant third, mainly because it is so resource intensive and most of the women in the FSU that I know are communicating through their cell phones.
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It should be pointed out that the preferred method of conversation (and video) is Viber. Second from women I know is Whatsapp. Skype comes a distant third, mainly because it is so resource intensive and most of the women in the FSU that I know are communicating through their cell phones.
Skype via computer/s is still the best for video interaction and extended conversation.
Many business's in FSU are now using Viber,Whatsapp etc .
There is a major advantage I have not seen mentioned -- you can use your home country phone number to call and be called in those systems at no cost ( even a paid subscription is cheap to use).
That means-- you can call( & be called) on arrival if you can access wifi or at a cost--you home carrier data etc.
That saves all the difficulties of getting a phone working when the instant you arrive eg to call transport,accommodation ,girl etc to start getting organised.
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Skype via computer/s is still the best for video interaction and extended conversation.
Many business's in FSU are now using Viber,Whatsapp etc .
There is a major advantage I have not seen mentioned -- you can use your home country phone number to call and be called in those systems at no cost ( even a paid subscription is cheap to use).
That means-- you can call( & be called) on arrival if you can access wifi or at a cost--you home carrier data etc.
That saves all the difficulties of getting a phone working when the instant you arrive eg to call transport,accommodation ,girl etc to start getting organised.
There is a Viber app for PC/Mac also, works even better then skype now.. it seems to hold connection better then Skype.
Only advantage with Skype if your lady dont know english is the build in translation, I thank god do not have that issue really any longer.
Viber credits to call a cell or landline also works very good. (wait I lied, never tried calling a landline, does those still exist? :D :D) works very well calling cellphones, and quite cheap not to expensive.
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It should be pointed out that the preferred method of conversation (and video) is Viber. Second from women I know is Whatsapp. Skype comes a distant third, mainly because it is so resource intensive and most of the women in the FSU that I know are communicating through their cell phones.
???!!!
I think we've had this discussion before..
During my last two trips I've noted that Whatsapp has WAY overtaken Viber as the comms platform of choice... Moscow / Sochi )
I based this in the number of contacts I have on both .. This puzzles me as Viber desktop allows calls / video calls - Whatsapp's desktop only allows chat.
I agree that Skype is a distant third - but it is by far the best for desktop - to mobile(cell) tablet VIDEO calls. Still not sure about the latest version of Skype - I preferred the old version that allowed poor video - this new one - tries to reconnect - rather than allow a poor quality .
Skype allows one to keep the same ID - irrespective of the cell / mobile you use - Viber / Whatsapp rely on the tel number- so you can end up with multiple accounts and not knowing what number to call if you use more than one sim / cell / mobile ((
I found that if you need to get a call through and the signal strength is poor that TELEGRAM is the comms platform of choice - it prioritises voice packets- useful if you really need to talk and the viber / skype / whatsapps of this world are having problems coping. It is used by geeks and they usually know))
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Boe, first of all let me say that despite all my trolling smiles I do respect you and I think that sometimes you have quite interesting insights! So what I'm gonna say no is not to tease you or something, but it just because it really is so. The matter is, that all you, guys, don't fully understand what realtor in Ukraine is. As far as I've heard realtors really do their job in the USA and that's why you maybe don't know about the attitude to realtors here, their way of conducting business, and, what is the most important, their price policies. All these factors have lead to the trend where there are tons of ad boards on the Internet now where people do not want to have anything to do with realtors, who tremendously exaggerate prices to get higher royalties, and conduct the purchases on their own directly with each other, without any mediators.
As you may have noticed, I spent some time and provided you the links for the newly built flats INSIDE Kiev, not in the city center (because I never mentioned the city center), which match what I had said before. I could spend some more time and give you more links, but am I motivated enough to do that? ;) All I get in return is "you're a liar" and "your info is bullshit", and who from?! From a person, who appears to be connected with a realtor! And I couldn't understand where all this aggression was coming from!!! :) ))) It's because I'm spoiling the potential business, as it turns out. So I guess those of you who are planning on buying some real estate have enough sound mind to google everything themselves, research the field and see who is right and who is a lying bullshitter. I, on my side, have no wish or time to waste to prove that the sun is yellow and the grass is green :) After all, why would I care? I don't have any business to protect, I'm just practicing my English, sharing TRUE info with you along the way :) )))
Well, I doubt he is here to troll for business for his wife. There are not too many posters here interested in buying Ukrainian real estate. :)
I make no comment on the price of real estate in Kyiv. I don't follow it, never have, never will, and I don't really care as I have no desire to retire to Ukraine. I do know that prices in Kyiv are inflated because a lot of money is laundered through real estate.
I suppose the only way to truly know is to go and try to buy a Kyiv apartment. :)
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Strider, FSW can sometimes feel like you're using an escort service I find, not that I have ever used one but it's what it kind of feels like sometime. Basically you date girl & pay for this, that & the other. If there's no chemistry on meeting then it can very much end up a 'reciprocal arrangement' by default of sharing time with one another unless you chose to give girl the heave ho. Personally though I no longer see the girl wanting to stay in her home country as a problem. If she's too eager to go to your home country it may not be for you but for herself with you acting as a mule for her to do so. Little mileage in a relationship if that is the case as once you've served your part you'll be kicked to the curb without thought nor care.
Culturally, men are expected to pay if they ask a woman out. Now, some men don't have money, and those men may arrange a picnic, or a walk in the park, or other activities that are no cost/low cost. But the man takes the lead. This, again, is your lack of understanding of the culture.
So a woman has specifically stated she is willing to consider the possibility of a relationship with a foreign man, she is somehow an "escort" because she is willing to relocate? Give your head a shake! Most of the women looking abroad are doing so because local men aren't marrying them.
A woman's shelf life is shorter than is a man's, and women, especially FSUW, are keenly aware of that. More so than in the West, where women can have children without a husband, and still have support systems in place. That's why most of them are willing to settle for foreign men. It isn't because of some nefarious plot to seduce some Western loser, steal all his assets, and move on to someone more attractive. Of course there are exceptions, but they are just that, not the rule.
Jumper gave you some great advice on your perspectives. Honestly, I do not see you succeeding in this endeavour until you get over your view that most women you meet are shysters.
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It isn't because of some nefarious plot to seduce some Western loser, steal all his assets, and move on to someone more attractive. Of course there are exceptions, but they are just that, not the rule.
With all that we've read from Trenchcoat, I'm beginning to think that, if I were an FSUW, I would have no compunction in becoming one of those nefarious plotters - especially if I had somehow found this site and worked out who he was.
Jumper gave you some great advice on your perspectives. Honestly, I do not see you succeeding in this endeavour until you get over your view that most ALL women you meet are shysters complete and utter frauds.
or, alternatively...
Jumper gave you some great advice on your perspectives. Honestly, I do not see EVER you succeeding in this endeavour.
How does that look? ;D
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So 2tallbill, why did it take yourself took 9 years to find the right one? (from RW's Trip Report) I mean I know you said you were only looking for an exceptional woman but 9 years? Everything I've seen from you tells me you are one of the more adept members of this board when it comes to dealing with girls and no doubt like most of us there was a fair bit of learning to do at the beginning, but 9 years? Quite a lengthy time, there are guys that do it a lot quicker.
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So 2tallbill, why did it take yourself took 9 years to find the right one? (from RW's Trip Report) I mean I know you said you were only looking for an exceptional woman but 9 years? Everything I've seen from you tells me you are one of the more adept members of this board when it comes to dealing with girls and no doubt like most of us there was a fair bit of learning to do at the beginning, but 9 years? Quite a lengthy time, there are guys that do it a lot quicker.
Trench - I remember Beel asking you to ask in the appropriate place - his thread - Tripping in St Pete (?) - he even gave you a link ... yet here you are - AGAIN - trying to offload your howlers - by trying to suggest you aren't any different ..
I have followed Beel through all his trials and tribulations and will let him answer - if he feels like it - in that place - but you can be assured - you'd do well to be more attentive as you might learn some useful tips .... From the get-go - he's never had any issues getting dates with FSU ladies ....
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Trench - I remember Beel asking you to ask in the appropriate place - his thread - Tripping in St Pete (?) - he even gave you a link ... yet here you are - AGAIN - trying to offload your howlers - by trying to suggest you aren't any different ..
I have followed Beel through all his trials and tribulations and will let him answer - if he feels like it - in that place - but you can be assured - you'd do well to be more attentive as you might learn some useful tips .... From the get-go - he's never had any issues getting dates with FSU ladies ....
Mobe for your information I followed the link Bill gave me and I posted at that link. If it is now elsewhere it is not my doing. No none of us have problems getting dates in the FSU it's like shooting apples on a barrel. Getting & being successful in a LTR is another matter.
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Mobe for your information I followed the link Bill gave me and I posted at that link.
Ah..so THAT would be why you posted the Q here ...? :deadhorse:
No none of us have problems getting dates in the FSU it's like shooting apples on a barrel.
:ROFL:
The misogynist in you is shining through ....
Getting & being successful in a LTR is another matter.
Well, at least we agree on that ;)