What's the stupidest thing a nation has ever done?

[BC]

Jone,

reflecting a bit I think that the fundamental problem is that those in Congress and others running for election are more about 'gaming the system' rather than abiding by the 'spirit and intent'.

[mhr7]

Yeah.  Who woulda thot to conduct campaigns in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania?  Before 2016, apparently not Hillary.  She found out too late.  Do any of you remember last year when I was wondering why Hillary, the Obamas, Kaine and everyone else Democrat were winding up in Pennsylvania on election eve?  Her polls showed a massive shift in the electorate in the last two weeks of the campaign.   

Hillary tried to tip Arizona and Georgia.  Trump played around with New Mexico.

Your 8 - 10?

Florida, Virginia, Ohio, North Carolina, Iowa, New Hampshire, Colorado, Nevada?  That was conventional wisdom before the election.

I wasn't thinking about any specific states at the time I wrote 8-10, just seems to be about that number every presidential election.

[jone]

I have a thought:

A number of my Democratic friends believe that the party is too liberal for them.  A number of my Republican friends castigate anyone who isn't truly conservative.  What do you guys think about making a third political party, which embraces a more liberal agenda than the conservatives seek and a more conservative perspective than the liberals pursue?

[BillyB]

1.  The 'Article' was an Editorial, not representing fact.

Just because it was written by liberals doesn't mean everything they wrote was a lie. Liberals were the ones that wanted slaves. Slaveholder states wanted the electoral college. Later the liberals formed the Democrat party.

This is already pretty much happening. Candidates tend to spend the majority of their time and money in only 8-10 battleground states where the voters are split.

With our current system, any state during any election can be a battleground state and be very important. A popular vote would ensure the same 9 states that hold over half the population would be the important states in every election.

[JayH]

I have a thought:

A number of my Democratic friends believe that the party is too liberal for them.  A number of my Republican friends castigate anyone who isn't truly conservative.  What do you guys think about making a third political party, which embraces a more liberal agenda than the conservatives seek and a more conservative perspective than the liberals pursue?

I have long believed that the huge majority of people are in the centre -- maybe lean a little to the left--or a little to the right -- and in fact have much more in the way of common attitudes and beliefs than they do with the extreme right and extreme left.

This is particularly so in Australia -- but in recent times I think it applies in America too, At the moment --the conservative agenda in the US has been hijacked by the extreme right --or alt right at the ridiculous end of the right scale.

Many fundamental values of what has and does make America a great country are being challenged by a small minority.There is evidence fromTuesday that a pushback has started -- but it will need to be sustained to actually return America to greatness.

For Americans to accept a President who lies as a matter of course ,who is attempting to subvert the democratic process in some crazy piece if extremist right wing idealism --it is simply not what most Americans want for America.

Before some of our idiot Trumpateers get to excited --the evidence is clear -- at least 2/3 of Americans do not approve of the current incumbent --he is on borrowed time

[jone]

I have long believed that the huge majority of people are in the centre -- maybe lean a little to the left--or a little to the right -- and in fact have much more in the way of common attitudes and beliefs than they do with the extreme right and extreme left.

This is particularly so in Australia -- but in recent times I think it applies in America too, At the moment --the conservative agenda in the US has been hijacked by the extreme right --or alt right at the ridiculous end of the right scale.

Many fundamental values of what has and does make America a great country are being challenged by a small minority.There is evidence fromTuesday that a pushback has started -- but it will need to be sustained to actually return America to greatness.

For Americans to accept a President who lies as a matter of course ,who is attempting to subvert the democratic process in some crazy piece if extremist right wing idealism --it is simply not what most Americans want for America.

Before some of our idiot Trumpateers get to excited --the evidence is clear -- at least 2/3 of Americans do not approve of the current incumbent --he is on borrowed time

There is NO evidence anything has started.  Two blue states voted blue.  Don't believe everything you read.  Every federal employee showed up at the polls in Virginia on an off year election.  As for Trump being on borrowed time, he has a little over three years remaining on his term. 

Did you ever think, Jay, that you might be the extremist?  You, who were very quick to point out that there were not really Nazis in Ukraine, as Russia was stating when they invaded, are blind as a bat when you see that the conservative agenda is simply the Republican agenda, not something that is far Alt Right. 

On another topic, what do you do when you lose an election?  Well, for the Democrats, they complain loudly about Gerrymandering and the Electoral College.  As if that isn't predictable.   Reminds me of the Birther movement and how everyone was going to replace Obama because he wasn't really a US citizen.

[JayH]

You decline to address the point I was making.
What I see is the extreme end of the conservative scale has been driving the agenda. So far -- the majority of moderate elected Republicans who are decent people -- have not yet "come out" . Trying to achieve some of the overall republican agenda has taken precedence.
Eventually --Trumpism will force them out to oppose him. Up to now -- the overall agenda was enough to keep them in line -- and it is only a matter of time.

I like the term --the coalition of the decent" !!
That will be enough to restore America  !

Your comments on Tuesday are off beam-- what we saw was Democrats coming out to vote  -- and instead of wavering as they did after the Sanders/Clinton debacle-- they went the obvious way. Chances are that will be repeated.

[2tallbill]

I have a thought:

A number of my Democratic friends believe that the party is too liberal for them.  A number of my Republican friends castigate anyone who isn't truly conservative.  What do you guys think about making a third political party, which embraces a more liberal agenda than the conservatives seek and a more conservative perspective than the liberals pursue?

There are 36% conservatives, 34% moderates and 25% liberals 
according to Gallup. The conservatives and the liberals are the
most likely to vote. There are moderates in the GOP, most
consider Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski as moderates.

Joe Manchin of West Virginia is the best case for a moderate
Democrat, the Dems don't have many any more.


http://news.gallup.com/poll/201152/conservative-liberal-gap-continues-narrow-tuesday.aspx

[Anotherkiwi]

Well done, Kiwi old boy!  Impressive knowledge of history, in spite of your shortfall of being born on North Island.   Did you learn as much of your own nation's past at Te Papa Tongarewa

Overeseas people always get this wrong.  I was born IN "THE" North Island. 

Although I have visited Te Papa, I certainly don't need to do so for history lessons!

[Anotherkiwi]

You didn't understand the NY Times article. They said the electoral college was to appease slaveholders. Slaveholders were mostly located in the less populated states down South where liberals resided. They eventually created the Democrat party.

When Republicans gave blacks freedom and later the right to vote, only then did Democrats decide Black votes are worth pursuing.

I wasn't referring to any NY Times article, and cetainly haven't read the one to which you refer.  I based my reply on what you, amongst others, have said in relation to the founding of the Electoral College - i.e. that it was created by the Founding Fathers to equalise the rights of smaller states.

I then did what everyone else does, and Googled the Constitution, where I found this in one of the original articles - not in a later Amendment. 

[Anotherkiwi]

In the USA we have a constitutional republic not a democracy.

I know that.  So what?

In the USA we elect a president. Then the president appoints 4000 people to run the administration. That's how we do it and how we've done it. That's how all previous presidents have done it and how we will do it in the future.

And how inefficient is that?  A president is supposed to be a president - not an HR consultant! If he's going to appoint 4,000 people it will take him the whole four years just to do that, and he won't have time for anything else.  As he's jauntering around from one golf course to another, with the occasional state visit thrown in, I guess he's not actually "appointing" many of these 4,000 at all.

How other countries like to do things is up the the citizens of their respective countries. We have three different branches of government not 30 or 40. The president runs the executive branch and we don't elect 39 different people with differing agenda's to run the executive branch.

We also have the same three branches.  Our Prime Minister runs the executive branch, and appoints cabinet members from his or her own party (or coalition partners), who have been duly ELECTED by the people - not appointed from outside Parliament.  That way we know who we're getting to run our country, and we also know that they won't have 39 different agendas.

Obama weaponized the EPA. They were trying to control private land ownership through several different means none of which were allowed by law. 13 states were suing the EPA over it. Obama couldn't get what he wanted passed through
congress so he just told his various agencies to do it anyway. 

On October 9, 2015, the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit temporarily blocked the Obama land grab nationwide to deliberate whether the (waters of the US) rule was permissible under federal law. Prior to this decision, the United States District Court for the District of North Dakota issued an order temporarily blocking the EPA's water rule in 13 states in August 2015
http://ballotpedia.org/Waters_of_the_United_States_rule

Whatever the merits (or otherwise) of the "Waters" rule and the various legal actions, appointing someone who is suing an agency to be its head absolutely screams "conflict of interest," if nothing else.  Surely even you can see that!

[jone]

Overeseas people always get this wrong.  I was born IN "THE" North Island. 

Although I have visited Te Papa, I certainly don't need to do so for history lessons!

Hell, if it weren't for Peter Jackson, I wouldn't even know where the hell you lived.

[Anotherkiwi]

Hell, if it weren't for Peter Jackson, I wouldn't even know where the hell you lived.

You mean the location of the country, or the fact that my country exists?

[jone]

You mean the location of the country, or the fact that my country exists?

I dinht now you were a country.  I thot you were part of Austria. 

[JayH]

I dinht now you were a country.  I thot you were part of Austria.

That'all tells us'all  that you did vote Trump 

[JayH]

NO LABELS ?

Reality already !



Sens. Susan Collins and Joe Manchin find common ground with No...Labels

Sens. Susan Collins, R-Maine, and Joe Manchin, D-W. Va., will serve as honorary co-chairs of bipartisan group No Labels, and they join Morning Joe to discuss searching for 'fanatical moderates'.



http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/two-senators-from-both-sides-find-common-ground-1092112963896

[msmob]

Back to the stupidest think a nation has ever done - getting rid of 'Tramp' can take a max of four years .... undoing Brexit ... ?

Now every UK citizen will be burdened with a penalty of  £1000 per head for budget for an organisation we promised - but will not benefit from the input..