a sizeable fortune[/size][/color][/font]
If you have nothig to loose then it dose not matter
Let's look at it in a way you refuse to abandon...... Some of the "richest men" in the world got their riches by risking everything they had to get it. If material possessions which can be replaced are worth risking everything a man has, then why isn't a wife, who is supposedly one of the richest sources of happiness a man can have isn't worth risking it all on? A treasure who maybe can Never be replaced. Like I said, this is your individual choice, but please don't suggest other men take this narrow-minded and selfish path towards marriage, it's not fair to suggest them to risk losing a far more valualbe treasure than silver and gold. For some of us our happiness has no dollar value. Dave
Quote from: TigerPawsI agree 100% with you Dave. To me, if a guy feels he needs a pre-nup, he is not 110% sure in his relationship. If a guy is going to marry one of these ladies, giver her some respect and let her participate in the relationship as an equal. Otherwise, stay the heck away from these women. Most of them are very good I think and deserve more than some guys are willing to give. I have a business and lots to lose. When I am married, my wife will be my partner in it all. I am willing to take the chance because I know she has good character, shares the same values and wants the same things in life. And yes, I will let her think for herself. I'm not a control freak!! If you all will let your wives participate in everything, you might find they are an asset. Frank
This is a very contentious issue amongst guys. I agree with Tigerpaws 100% and I'll leave it at that.
Dave,
You are course more than welcome to you opinion and in a perfect world it wold be wonderful to be able to trust people but we live in the real world where people will do anything possible to take what is yours. It is very obvious that you are willing to loose anything and everything in the hope that love will see you through but not everyone is willing to do that. Speaking from experience, love and trust are no substitute for a good contract and additional protections when things go terribly wrong.
If you truly knew anything about how to become wealthy then you would know it is all about risk management, maximize the profit at the least possible risk and insure the rest. A prenup, trusts and offshore accounts are nothing more than insurance not just for a divorce but for everyday life. Any number of things could happen and you could be suied for far more than what your net worth is with multiple judgements you may not be able to discharge in a bankruptcy. You could loose everything but with the proper protections in place you could forget those worries, prenups trusts and offshore acounts have been in use by the wealthy for a very long time for a good reason, they work.
You don't have to like it but then again you are willing to risk your enitre future, I and many others are not, that dose not make you right and me wrong or me right and you wrong only different and what is wrong with that?
"What do they say planning for failure does? When you get a pre-nup aren't you planning for failure?" I gather then Dave you do not have health, fire or anyother type of insurance because that would be "planning for failure"?
Ah, I see you want to compare apples to oranges? apples being the assets, or property you insure to recover the loss of due to natural disasters, oranges being the wife, and marriage you want to insure with a pre-nup to recover from the loss of NOT due to natural disasters, but intangeble ones of the heart. Is your wife, or marriage property you insure? I don't think so, and fortunately most people in America don't think so either, and yes even the very wealthy ones who have a lot to lose, they don't see their wives, or marriages as property, we see them as MORE valuable than mere property, something worth risking all that we have for happiness. Like Donna pointed out: she's not a little girl , she can tell bs no matter how you present it... why would women be any less clever than us? are they mindless fish that you can "present" the bait (pre-nup) to with just the right amount of wiggle to entice them to bite? It just doesn't seem fair that these women are willing to risk all that they have (even though it may be less then her man at the time of marriage) to share their lives with a husband without a pre-nup, and we men aren't? You still see marriage as a business deal and I can't help that, it's your choice, but even you have admitted in a perfect world a pre-nup wouldn't be necessary,... well it's still not necessary in many many marriages that work. Judging from what you wrote above here , it is apparant you reject all points that I make about proper marriage etiquiete. My belief is more towards the "ideal" marrriage circumstance we should all strive to have, your view obviously is the less than ideal marriage circumstance that doesn't rely on the love and trust in marriage. It is like: comdoms prevent pregnancy, but abstinance prevents it better. :-) Dave
Quite amazing the things we can read here that are written by supposed adults.
Hard to do when the bulk of your assets were in your house, pension, and company 401K plan. I just lost half, and have a crushing child-support and alimony payment - taking virtually all the joy out of my life. I now work to make these payments, and to try and hold onto my house and car. Discretionary funds have basically dried up, with the exception that I'll continue to fund my quest for a new wife - otherwise there would be little left to live for. Having to sell assets to cover deficit monthly spending.
Oh, divorced an AW in Missouri and the judge used me to make a point to my lawyer ("Told you he should have settled...").
Kevin C.
Yes a pre-nup is wide open for any stipulations the author wants in it, as long as the other party "agrees" to it...This becomes a legally-binding agreement.... this is law for that marriage! In the case where the marriage goes wrong.... the husband could abuse, mistreat his wife in any fashion he wants and in the divorce court the judges power to award the wife a settlement commensurate with her level of suffering in the marriage is completely "Usurped!" As you can see the pre-nup doesn't have to be fair.... it only has to be signed by both parties. Most women know about this and if you check with them... like Donna.... of course it offends them, but there are some women, (tiger found one) who don't mind, maybe they are comforted by some other aspect in the marriage, not to mind being taken advantage of. Let's all face it... the pre-nup protects the author the most, it is He/ she, who brings it to the marriage table, the other party looks at it and decides if they can live with it or not Dave
Yes let's all suck the love and trust right out of marriages, every guy should protect every penny against these "evil women" why should any guy "trust any woman"? after all, since we know no woman can be trusted in a marriage, I think a pre-nup should be mandatory. Why should we even call it a marriage? let's see..... why not call it: "Co-habitation merger"? we've been looking at this proposition all wrong all these years....we could have co-habitant fines from the courts when one party violates a co-habitant rule? why not? it's only smart business? When a pre-decided number of violations are amassed by the wife (per the pre-nup) then there could be a co-habitant merger dissolution, with a small severance pay given to the departing co-habitant of course. :-)
hahaha why do you think it was necessary for the courts to decide how much a father should spend in the first place? because of fathers who did just what my example father did!
Something else for all of you to think about; my sister is a lawyer practicing family law. I have heard lots of stories about men that think all of the money they make is their own and not the wifes also. There are lots of divorced women out there who support the kids and live on next to nothing, while the ex-husband is living it up, not providing for their needs! When you are married, what you make should also be that of your wife. I would tell any RW to stay away from any man who will not let her participate 100% in all aspects of her husbands life. These RW are not business propositions or objects to buy. Give them the respect, honor and trust they deserve. If you can't, then stay away. Don't be stingy. If the roles were reversed, you would not like it. Do to them as you would like them to do to you.
Marriages were not designed to break up. That is why it hurts financially and psychologically when they fail. If you don't want the worst to happen, do all you can to be a good husband and choose a wife of good character, not just a good body. Also, be of good character yourself.
Incase you wonder; I do have lots to lose. I will stick to my principles no matter what.
and business partners split even more frequently than divorces, paving the way for an even greater divorce rate. The pre-nup certainly allows for the possibility of the author to abuse any aspect of a marriage if only he can get his woman to "sign" then he's home free! Oh, did I mention that I don't approve of Pre-nups in a marriage? :-) Dave
" Marriage was just a tribal/cultural rite to ensure order within the tribal grouping set.
At any rate marriage was a cultural/social invention (the design of) of the, shall we say, cavemen, to ensure order within the tribal grouping.
No Mr. Darwin marriage was NOT a cultural/social invention of any "tribes" sorry to burst your bubble, but marriage was invented by God, and He designed it NOT to fail. I know you hold your fantasy in high regard, but remember even Darwin near the end of his life was very distraught over his writings about evolution, he regreted being wrong about it, and sought God's face before he died. Darwin could not undo what he had done. Dave
I like the thread, but you are wrong, the purpose of this thread is to learn about all views on this subject NOT to learn about the possiblities an man has to protect himself from a RW. It is to exchange opinions here, and I suggest if YOU don't like it you know what to do? I enjoy thoughtful debates and up till now you have been cordial, but you are getting close to crossing the line my friend. if you can remain civil , I'd like to read any constructive thoughts you have. I wish you the best Dave
[user=62]tim 360[/user] wrote:Quote" Marriage was just a tribal/cultural rite to ensure order within the tribal grouping set.QuoteAt any rate marriage was a cultural/social invention (the design of) of the, shall we say, cavemen, to ensure order within the tribal grouping.QuoteNo Mr. Darwin marriage was NOT a cultural/social invention of any "tribes" sorry to burst your bubble, but marriage was invented by God, and He designed it NOT to fail. I know you hold your fantasy in high regard, but remember even Darwin near the end of his life was very distraught over his writings about evolution, he regreted being wrong about it, and sought God's face before he died. Darwin could not undo what he had done. Dave
Davey Boy,
Thanks a bunch. Now I can see much more clearly now. Thanks for your erudite reply. When bygosh, Jehossaphat, did your GOD invent marriage? Wwwwwhhhaaat year, pray tell? Whats his name? My total ignorance is embarrassing to say the least. Ya know Davey boy...once I was blind, now I can see. Hey do ya know the song? Can ya sing it? Better yet Can ya sing, dance and read the bible at the same time and make a post? [user=101]Dave_home[/user] wrote:Quote[user=62]tim 360[/user] wrote:Quote" Marriage was just a tribal/cultural rite to ensure order within the tribal grouping set.QuoteAt any rate marriage was a cultural/social invention (the design of) of the, shall we say, cavemen, to ensure order within the tribal grouping.QuoteNo Mr. Darwin marriage was NOT a cultural/social invention of any "tribes" sorry to burst your bubble, but marriage was invented by God, and He designed it NOT to fail. I know you hold your fantasy in high regard, but remember even Darwin near the end of his life was very distraught over his writings about evolution, he regreted being wrong about it, and sought God's face before he died. Darwin could not undo what he had done. Dave
Mr Tiger Paws,Hey tim 360, I liked your post. Anyway, I don't like dueling. In fact, I don't shoot in the dark. However, when I go hunting, I get in some good brush shots:D
I do beg your pardon, I have enjoyed your posts. However, I did not originally invoke the name of any diety or Darwin whatsoever. Nor would I.
I originally replied to Frank 2 hours after his post which spoke of the "what marriage was designed for." I did wonder who designed it. Curious.
Then Davey piped in to post the GOD and Darwin stuff. It's all there in the record.
To castigate me for initiating GOD and Darwin and religions is inaccurate at best. I have enjoyed many of your posts and agree with much of what you have to say. Very practical stuff. But to nail me for starting the GOD stuff...you are incorrect.
Normally I would challenge you to a duel with pistolas, but the hour is getting late and the sky is darkening and my aim is probably not what once it was. And so I will let you go this time, knowing that you are a man with a good heart and possibly a better aim than mine in the dark.
Yo Frank,
No anger here, a little laughter. Like Mr. Tiger Paw said, this thread is about Pre-Nups and financial considerations. If ya got some religious views you should be posting them on a different thread. Like just start a religious thread, thats where it belongs. Not this one.
Sorry, but marriage IS a religious instition so Yes it is relevant to have God in it! post, or dont post here it is your choice as well as mine, I'm not going anywhere how 'bout you? :-)
hahaha, that is amusing.... you think I'm (looking for RW)? I'm not, and the way for you to know is to go where he hangs out the most: RWL at St. Johns Malestrom, and yahoo groups Russian Bride List. From his posts you can see he is nothing like me. ,.,. but him and I have had some interesting debates, Dave
Davey Boy,
Thanks a bunch. Now I can see much more clearly now. Thanks for your erudite reply. When bygosh, Jehossaphat, did your GOD invent marriage? Wwwwwhhhaaat year, pray tell? Whats his name? My total ignorance is embarrassing to say the least. Ya know Davey boy...once I was blind, now I can see. Hey do ya know the song? Can ya sing it? Better yet Can ya sing, dance and read the bible at the same time and make a post?
You're certainly welcome Timmy, always glad to help. :-)
Respectfully Tiger, you may have started this thread, but you don't control it, moderator Dan does and it is open for all members who want to comment regardless of their beliefs
When you set up your shell companie(s) in the Caymans you also need to set up a transfer banking account into which to funnel those funds you want to move to say Monaco. This account will act as a middle man or men depending on how many shells you decide you want to use, the more the better but remember this greatly complicates things for you (true security is never easy). Once the transfers are complete you money is about as safe as possible and you still have total access to it, of course if your liguid assets are small then this approace might not be for you. Still between a well written prenup and several protected trusts you can secure the bulk of your assets not just from your wife to be but from those ever present blood sucking leeches we call "civil litigation attorneys".
Would a new wife who divorced me after 2 years (and getting her green card), get half of our combined increase in wealth?
Kevin C.
Divorce laws are different from state to state, I know in my state of Indiana it is a "no fault" divorce state, a man could have amassed a huge fortune before a marriage, and if he married a woman and it ended in only 2 years she is only entitled to "half " of the increase of wealth during the 2 year marriage only..... this is without a pre-nup. Yes that is fair, but some guys live in states where a judge could award half of a man's entire fortune ( or even more) regardless if he was married to his wife for a year, or 20 years, it's whatever the judge decides. I won't beat a dead horse here, my opinion is known already, but anyone can see why guys who want to marry in these states where a judge could go crazy in a divorce and award half, or even much more of a man's life's savings! to the departing wife! it could cause the victum (husband) to consider doing something to the departing wife, or her attorney! :-) or the judge! Dave
ps. this is really none of our business, but I thought if might be more fair to look at all sides of the matter.[/color]
I would not do it of course no matter how much I had to protect... due to my beliefs, but for those that "Do" want to do a pre-nup, I think you are a good example of a fair way to do it. good example. Dave
Goombah,
Divorce laws are different from state to state, I know in my state of Indiana it is a "no fault" divorce state, a man could have amassed a huge fortune before a marriage, and if he married a woman and it ended in only 2 years she is only entitled to "half " of the increase of wealth during the 2 year marriage only..... this is without a pre-nup. Yes that is fair, but some guys live in states where a judge could award half of a man's entire fortune ( or even more) regardless if he was married to his wife for a year, or 20 years, it's whatever the judge decides. I won't beat a dead horse here, my opinion is known already, but anyone can see why guys who want to marry in these states where a judge could go crazy in a divorce and award half, or even much more of a man's life's savings! to the departing wife! it could cause the victum (husband) to consider doing something to the departing wife, or her attorney! :-) or the judge! Dave
Tiger,
I think your image on this matter still appears ugly to many of us,
Tiger,
This seems very fair, and I think it casts you in a much better light.
I would not do it of course no matter how much I had to protect... due to my beliefs, but for those that "Do" want to do a pre-nup, I think you are a good example of a fair way to do it. good example. Dave
Words of wisdom in this thread from our expert Dave_home:
___________________________________________________________________
Dave_home.
I have read all your many posts on this thread. You are not seeking a RW at all but you tell other WM how to behave; they must follow your own hypocritical religious values. Moderator Dan should give you a caution at least. Please reread all the advice you wrote and ask yourself if it is truly helpful to even one WM seeking a FSUW? Lastly do you notice how your posts wander, indicating some sort of confusion on your part?
My , My, My.... I don't think I will address a person here, I agree with Anono, you must be a troll? In any case you can state your opinions as we all can here, as long as you are respectful in doing it. As for all my posts they are : " OPINIONS! get that through your head! NOT advice, and none of my posts have told anyone what to do, or how to behave. I stand by all my posts as my own opinions.
You are right I am NOT seeking a RW, I have one! Lastly I don't have to defend, or explain any of my posts... if they were not acceptable Moderator Dan would have deleted them. It is his business, not yours! If you don't like opinions here then go "Troll some other group!" and leave us alone! Many guys here don't agree with me and that's ok with me, we don't all have to agree, this is a disucssion forum... We discuss topics and opinions will vary so what? You need to mature and keep your flames to yourself. I hope you find a group that likes your personal attacks. thanks for the insults :-) Dave
I don't know Anono, He just joined yesterday.... I guess if he "flames" enough people on here Dan will do something about it? but just the same I think I'll follow your advice :-)
TigerPaws, thankyou for a valuable post. It is easy for some people to be jealous of those that have more money and more sense than they do. The way I see it is this, you have gained nothing by helping but some thanks, and a lot of criticism by one man that thinks true love abounds with FSUW who want to go West. And Donna thinks you are on the nose also. Funny thing is, ask your loving FSUW if you can live with her permanently in the FSU, surprising thing is that going west seems more important than this imaginary true love.
Dave_home (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/view_user.php?id=101), you are naïve, trusting of FSUW, mistrusting of WM who think differently to you, and opinionated. Men with some assets had better listen to TigerPaws and not you, unless they want to end up in divorce court. Why are you so angry and forceful about this and other subjects? Lower your voice, and strengthen you argument. In my opinion, a prenup actually reduces the chances for divorce, as the financial incentive for divorce is not available. A woman will stay living with a wealthy man because he provides her with a very good lifestyle, which ceases if she leaves him. She is limited to seeking only other very rich guys, who probably would not marry a divorcing FSUW if they know what is good for them. I know one such lasting marriage involving a wealthy man and Filipino woman with a prenup. He has a very good life and she will probably never leave him. Her lawyer advised her the contract was not fair to her, she happily signed it anyway.
Dave, do you really know FSUW? Your loving FSUW will clean you out financially even while living together. FSUW can spend and spend again, and will tell you that you don't love them if you slam the wallet shut. Just ask bean about this. If you honestly think that FSUW are as gushy about true love as you are, then think again. FSUW by and large are just as pragmatic and even more ruthless than TigerPaws. They strike without warning when the man least expects it, just like desperate or greedy women from other poor countries. They are often willing to make false DV claims against an innocent man for financial benefit. Think about it, Dave. These women have spent their entire lives living in a rotten and corrupt system where the greedy and dishonest are rewarded, and the honest ground into the dust. Women on marriage agency books have decided which group they belong in.
Dave, don't you know that the Western countries have divorce laws heavily tilted in the favour of women? Even some good, honest WW like to take their husband to the cleaners. Not all, but many. Why do you expect a ruthless and cunning FSUW to behave better than a WW? Donna is honest but she is certainly ruthless. Conscience, empathy and kindness are emotions unknown to some FSU citizens, or more fully, are reserved for close family members and friends. A WM may not meet the strict criteria, even a loving husband.
Typically, the FSUW brings no financial resources to the marriage table whatsoever, and also usually has a low earning power in the West. Yet you say she is giving everything up? She can get on a plane and be back in the FSU in 24 hours. If she is young she brings her youth. The man does not steal this from her, he is only sharing it, especially if she leaves him as soon as she gets her Green card. Why should she get a massive financial payout as well? After all, the true love you talk about should survive for at least a few years AFTER residency is given to the FSUW in her chosen Western country. But rarely does, and neither do many of these marriages to the unlucky mule. Especially for some true love believers, who await unpleasant training in the game of life.
Hahaha, and you scoffed that "I" was the expert? clearly it must be you? Wow, surely all this wisdom of yours is published? if not, maybe your publisher won't like you giving a free sneak peak on this forum? I bet guys have been waiting for you to come out with this definetive work on FSUW? Ok I won;'t keep you ... I know you must be busy, talk shows, meetings, lectures, movie rights... I'm just glad you could take a moment to advise all of us :-) thanks!
What post? His was NOt a post, but an attack on me... is it fair he attack me and I must NOT defend myself? I didn't have anything to answer for, my posts this guy quoted still stand as I wrote them, they are my opinions, and I as with everyone else on here have a right to express them, and NOT be flamed for them! I like your posts, but you are wrong to support someone who flames another just because they don't agree with the opinions expressed. Dave
You are free to believe whatever you want, and guess what? I won't flame you for it. I will show you the respect that you refuse to give to me. You just have a different opinion than I do, and that's ok with me, ..... but what I don;'t think should be permitted is for you to call me names.... why should you disrespect me like this? what I said, I believe to be the truth, and I have reference material I drew on for it, it was not my idea, but a revisionists account of the last days of Darwin. I am NOT a religious zealot, YOU are a very offensive man! what gives you the right to offend people on here? Dave
I am not worth much more that 2 or 3 million.
I can tell you this much JB, The ladies I meet in the USA sure are ugly. You can believe that one for sure.
I have a friend that I was in Ukraine with who likes much younger women. Actually he is 62 and likes 19 year olds.
Dave
There's a name for this disorder.... It's called pedophilia. Regardless of how much money he has, you might not want to invite this friend over when you next have a birthday party for the kiddies
and my wish to move to America becomes stronger and stronger and stronger :DSuch nice judicial system
If you have a second mortgage on your house through your off shore corporation, wouldn't the courts see this, thereby piercing the corporate vail and get at the asset anyway?
Why are you so sure:P??
What??;) I manged to scare a Tiger:D
I like our law here in South Dakota where the man can sue the person who cheated with his wife. A few years ago a man won $300,000 by suing the man who broke up his marriage. Not only did the ex wife get nothing because she cheated and moved out, the other guy had to shell out a huge some of money. He appealed to the South Dakota Supreme court and lost there too. It also works the other way around too, where the wife can sue the mistress of her husband if he is cheating.
Tigerpaws,The Grand Cayman Islands would be a good place to start, I like the Principality of Monaco but it is more expensive to do business there. The up side is that Monaco will not work with the U.S. Goverment for any reason peroid, they are extremily security oriented and privacy is their montra. As for being a safe place to stash you assets, yes your assets are as safe as you could ever wish for.
Thanks for the info. Really, can one trust the other countries the accounts are in? As for trusting you.......nothing personal, but I don't know you. As for trusting ones wife, I start to have second thoughts when reading the words of the women on this forum:D
Really, what is the best state for dealing with divorces, dividing up assets, etc?
Tiger
If you sell the second to a shell, you get the cash. What do you suggest happens with the cash from the sale? Monaco?
Alan
Dear Mr. Paws,
Your written English is not bad for a non-native English speaker
Paws is a retired general...
I like our law here in South Dakota where the man can sue the person who cheated with his wife. A few years ago a man won $300,000 by suing the man who broke up his marriage. Not only did the ex wife get nothing because she cheated and moved out, the other guy had to shell out a huge some of money. He appealed to the South Dakota Supreme court and lost there too. It also works the other way around too, where the wife can sue the mistress of her husband if he is cheating.
What you fail to understand is that I am often on our boat surfing the web using a PDA with WiFi connection and typing with a hand held pen not a keyboard.
South Dakota is one of VERY few states that continue to allow lawsuits for 'alienation of affection' and 'seduction' (North Carolina and Utah are a couple of others).
In all those states, a cheater is at great risk for losing loads of $$$. It is not uncommon to see settlements or jury awards in the hundreds of thousands of $$ (or even millions).
Makes you wonder why those laws (torts, actually) have been abolished in most states. In fact, here in Colorado, it is a misdemeanor crime for someone to even file one of those cases with the courts.
FWIW
- Dan
An old lawyer friend once told me that almost any pre-nup could be over turned.
What you need to find is a lawyer for her who is Russian, or who speaks Russian fluently, he can explain the document to her in Russian. You must then also have an independant translator who will explain it to your lawyer. And then videotape the whole affair with everything read back in both Russian and in English for the record.
You might then have a document that will stand up in a divorce court,,, but I doubt it...
Just so everyone knows,,, I don't have much regard for old TigerPaws in any case. In my humble opinion, anyone who needs a pre-nup hasn't spent enough time with his intended to know if she loves him, or loves his money.
One week wonder time??
Get your act together and then come and offer advice to the newbies. Until then, keep your advice to yourself.
I think part of the advantage of a prenuptual agreement is psycological.Having a prenupt is more of a disadvantage to the psycological well being of the marriage. It opens up the concept that the marriage could fail. Even though any logical person should be able to admit that any marriage has an element of risk to it, the pre-marriage time is usually a fairytale time. A prenupt brings that time back to the real world.
Turbo Guy,
I hope you have enough good sense to not follow the advice to have a Russian lawyer (in Russia) get involved in a pre-nup agreement. The very first thing an American divorce attorney would do is question the Russian lawyer's legal credentials. This would almost certainly get the pre-nup thrown out. Russian lawyers are not allowed to practice law in the USA, nothing he put his name to would be a legal instrument in any court on this country.
Either you love this woman enough to stand up before the preacher and take the vows, or you don't. If the answer to that qusetion is a qualified "maybe", then you shouldn't even be thinking about getting married.
Have you guys ever thought of moving to a State which observes "Community Property" law?
It would render your pre-nups moot.
Hello BC: In clothes, jewlery, etc.And you will not give any of those next time ?
Warren
If the FSU lady balks at a marriage agreement, just tell her that the State Govenment requires it.
If the FSU lady balks at a marriage agreement, just tell her that the State Govenment requires it.This would come under the heading of "duress". Any 2nd year law student would defeat any pre-nup signed because of such a lie.
IMHO, pre-nuptual contracts are a terrible way to start a marriage.jb, though I agree with you, I think pre-nups are necessary for 'Internet' marriages. How many of these guys get married after one week together, without even getting to know their wives properly? They need to cover their a**!
Jb: You sure have been "brain washed" by your attorney friends. I, too, have atty. friends. Tiger is right that it might cost only $5-15k depending on your needs. One can certainly draw up your own prenup and have it checked over by your attorney. Certainly have it translated and understood. There may be many out there who cannot afford the $5k.
Warren
IMHO, pre-nuptual contracts are a terrible way to start a marriage.jb, though I agree with you, I think pre-nups are necessary for 'Internet' marriages. How many of these guys get married after one week together, without even getting to know their wives properly? They need to cover their a**!
KenC
I thought I would re-boot this thread rather than starting a new one.
While I disagree on the need for a prenuptial agreement (IMHO they should be mandatory) I do agree that such an agreement should be directed towards the possibility of a divorce in the future not the garbage which is so often reported in the tabloids. As for people on this forum not seeking advise here, I hope the point is to have men think about their situation and the possible need for such an agreement, not necessarily take anything written here as a path they should or should not follow. The object is to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of such agreements, as Dan so aptly stated there are two schools of thought to the issue and both are valid for different people it all depends on the man's situation.
A prenuptial agreement is nothing more than an insurance policy .. if a man does not see the need then he is under no obligation to use one, if he thinks it might be a good idea then hopefully he will seek out competent legal counsel to see if something like this is right for him.
Such an agreement is neither good or bad, they are merely a tool, a man can use one or not that is his decision.
The rules change yearly as more decisions are made by appellate courts.Absolutely...and with each year basically favoring the foreign bride.
$5,000 - $10,000 you can have a very professional done prenup.Good grief! Have it nationally broadcasted while you're at it.
Video tape it with her lawyer and yours present.
What is Russian women view on pre-nuptial agreements?http://www.womenrussia.com/letters/index.htm
I am very interested in getting your opinion on an area I don't think you have discussed. That area is pre-nuptial agreements & Russian ladies. Please don't get me wrong, I am not looking for something for nothing. I was reluctant to ask for a pre-nuptial in my first marriage because we loved each other and I thought the marriage would last a lifetime... also did not think she would ever want what I had before marriage. As it turned out after 12.5 years she no longer wanted to work and had become a gold digger despite the fact I was working 90 hrs a week to launch our new business. She financially hurt me during the divorce despite the fact that she had become wealthy. How well would Russian women accept a pre-nuptial agreement? I don't mean an agreement where they get nothing but one where what they get is specified if the marriage ends. I am not referring to child support as not wishing to have kids. Please understand, I am looking for marriage to last a lifetime. I am not abusive & have never run around with other women. I just can't afford to marry someone who dumps me & tries to take 1/2 of my assets and go on to another man. Thank-you for responding. Lin
Elena Petrova:
Dear Lin,
No matter what, a prenuptial agreement will be taken as a distrust. It can affect your relationship in a negative way. I believe there is a better way of dealing with it: organizing a cover plan for all your assets. Then you do not need any prenuptials. Use a corporation or a trust to protect your assets from an unscrupulous partner. In case your new wife decides "to take you to the cleaners", she will get nothing since all your assets belong to a trust or a corporation. You must seek legal and tax advice before deciding on any cover plan to protect your assets. Prenuptial agreement does not work in all countries in the same way, and in some countries such as USA or Australia the criminal law (for example, domestic violence cases) and other areas of law can make many areas of a pre-nuptial null and void. It is absolutely a must to seek legal advice on protecting your financial well being for all people entering marriage, does not matter if you marry a Russian or an American.
If you really want a prenuptial, find an article on the Internet discussing those issues, especially how a prenuptial can protect a woman, and ask your fiancee what she thinks about the article. When you know her opinion about prenuptials in general, ask if she would like to have one. Do not tell her you will only marry her if she signs a contract; this will ruin the very foundation of your marriage.
A prenup also can specify a man's responsibilities to enable a young wife achieve her goals during marriage.
Absolutely...and with each year basically favoring the foreign bride.
.. can guarantee a younger wife, who is expected to outlive her husband, a specific distribution of property/assets at his death...This is best expressed in a notarized will.
Writing this down and discussing it gives each party a preview of how the other is thinking.
A pre nup works in one way and one way only. To LIMIT the entitlement of one spouse to something other than SHE (usually) would be entitled to at Law. I am hearing alot of agency talking points all of a sudden. "I am trying to protect you , darling." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAgree
But when it comes to a foreign bride. Your asking her to leave her country, leave her family, and than sign a document that you do not believe your marriage will work. Only a desperate woman would sign this or even marry this guy.
What about state laws? In my state (maybe others) a divorced spouse is entitled to 50 percent of her ex husband's retirement benefit. It depends on the length of the marriage when they divorce (I think 3 years).
If the couple are willing to reach an agreement with their respective attorneys can they change these rules? What if the wife will be content with 30% of his retirement?
Doesn't it make more sense to talk things over with the attorney's after and not before you marry? Things change, assets change, life changes.
Can't couples leave as friends if they reach an agreement?
What if the wife will be content with 30% of his retirement?
:ROFL:
Can't couples leave as friends if they reach an agreement? :arguing:
A pre nup works in one way and one way only. To LIMIT the entitlement of one spouse to something other than SHE (usually) would be entitled to at Law.
If so, I should sue my family law attorney for malpractice because our contract includes provisions to provide her more at my death than she would be entitled to by law.
Translation- I was getting away with robbing my ex blind in our divorce and was promising her eternal friendship in return for nothing until she talked to a lawyer. I got my ass hammered and had to pay what the law provides for and now I dont want to be her friend anymore. Come to think about it-she doesnt want to be my friend either. . .Yes sirree- it is all the lawyer's fault, and the judge's, and the feminists. Everybody's fault except for mine. . . . .
Translation- I was getting away with robbing my ex blind in our divorce and was promising her eternal friendship in return for nothing until she talked to a lawyer. I got my ass hammered and had to pay what the law provides for and now I dont want to be her friend anymore. Come to think about it-she doesnt want to be my friend either. . .Yes sirree- it is all the lawyer's fault, and the judge's, and the feminists. Everybody's fault except for mine. . . . .:thumbsup:
Since you live in the FSU
Since you live in the FSU I'm going to forgive you for not fully understanding
Hon, I live in the USA :D Like you do
2 out of 3 marriages fail in Ukraine and Russia.
Has to be a will or trust. Talk to your probate attorney.
Hon, I live in the USA :D Like you do
You might want to state in your profile your residence is in the USA instead of the FSU.
William, [deleted by mod] I was separated over 6 months with the ex before she got a lawyer.
Was your separation agreement filed, or did you even have one prepared by your legal advisor?
Heck, the fact you gave permission and allowed her to continue living in your house would support even your ex stating 'Well, he gave it to me.', in which case having to relinquish only half of the house may have been a generous decision by the judge on your behalf.
Billy B - did you ever get married to your girl from Uzbekestan?
BillyB, I asked for your source of the divorce statistics you cited as facts, remember?
BillyB, not sure how you ended up with child support for her kid. Seems your lawyer goofed.
You only get one side of the story here and I havent listened to your stories for over a year. They never make any sense. This result sounds like a tall tale. I restate my previous translation. Fundamental fairness came back to bite you in the butt. 'nuff said.
No separation agreement filed but the separation didn't count towards length of time the ex was married to me either. Letting the ex stay in the house had no effect with the judge's decision on how to split it. If you own a property before you were married in a State that recognizes the difference between separate property and community property, then the house should be separate property. But there are ways that a judge can give your ex interest in it. Maybe you were living together before marriage when you bought it with your own money but the judge recognizes your living together is (marriage like) even though the ex and your finances are clearly separated. Maybe you made a repair on the home when married and she gets interest in the house. Let's say you own a piece of property worth $800,000 according to the expert witness, an appraiser. But at trial he says that he can't appraise wetlands and you have 50% wetlands designated on your property and he admits the value of the property is half but the judge rules the property is worth $700,000 anyway and the ex's share is 2/7th or $200,000 based on guidelines of the law and refuses to assign her's and your share by percentage(2/7) although your attorney asked for it. So the property gets sold at the market value of $400,000 because the judges estimate of $700,000 was unrealistic to begin with and the ex gets $200,000 for a 3 year marriage although the judge calls it 4 because of the meretricious(marriage like) relationship. That may just be one piece of property in dispute. It can happen to anyone because judges have lots of "discretion". There's no doubt in my mind a judge can award half or more to an ex for a short term marriage and prenups that follow state guidelines would prevent judges from using their "discretion" from straying away from state guidelines when it comes to splitting up assets. Based on mine and viewing other people's trials, judges have lots of "discretion"
If in your State you have the option for a jury for a divorce trial, then request it. No offense to judges but more heads are better than one and jurors do pay attention to evidence and testimony more closely and most likely try their best to stick to state guidelines when making their decision for spitting up assets.
After my divorce, I talked to a lot of attorneys and they all said I got the raw deal but told me there's only a 10% chance to be awarded an appeal and if an appeal is awarded, there's little chance of winning it because family court judges are allowed lots of "discretion". Most all attorneys I talked to weren't after my money but honest with telling me an appeal is not worth persuing.
Sure, there may have been differences between multiple appraisals, but nothing really wrong with the judge picking a middle point between them to establish a value.
The essential distinctions of a common law marriage are:
1. Common-law marriages are not licensed by government authorities, although they may be recorded in the public records of some governmental entities.
2. Common-law marriages are not solemnized.
3. Cohabitation alone does not create a common-law marriage; the couple must hold themselves out to the world as husband and wife; and....
1. There must be mutual consent of the parties to the relationship constituting a marriage
2. Both parties must be of legal age to enter into a marriage or have parental consent to marry
4. In some jurisdictions, a couple must have cohabited and held themselves out to the world as husband and wife for a minimum length of time for the marriage to be recognised as valid.
There is no such thing as "common-law divorce". Once a marriage is validly contracted, whether according to statute or according to common law, the marriage can only be dissolved by a legal proceeding in the pertinent trial court (usually family court or probate court). In Texas a new provision was added to the Family Code, either partner in a common law marriage has two years after separation to file an action in order to prove that the common law marriage existed. To use the provision, you must have been separated after September 1, 1989.
adultery is in fact a crime in more than twenty states.
The Role of Marriage Law in Regulating Adultery: "Fault-Based" Divorce and Property Divisionfollows...
I guess I was lucky on my divorce. I picked the attorney we both used. Told her what she was getting and she was happy. Than I went to court as she did not have to go. I even found her current boyfriend for her who she now has two kids with - great guy too.
Hard for me to imagine how relationships go this bad in the first place.
BillyB, Thanks for the links. I did the math on the links that you provided and it comes out to about 65% for Russia and if we assume the same marriage rate for Ukraine it comes out to about 63%. I checked a bunch of other sites to try to get a more reliable figure and there really isn't one out there, but the vast majority place the rate in the range of 43-45%. My impression is that this is closer to the truth. The US comes in around 52-55%.
Is this kind of thing romantic? No, but if a man has amassed a sizeable fortune or anything else he cares about then a premarital contract is necessity in todays world as are protected trusts and offshore accounts. Of course if you have nothing to loose or are the foolish trusting soul then you take your chances, as for me I have too much to loose to take chances anymore.
Donna,
Yes my lady was very aware that wihout a prenup there would be no marrage, like anything else in life it is how the informaton is presented. Once she fully understood what I was talking about and what it meant for her then she had no objections.
TigerPaws,
Over here the wife basically 'accrues' her share of gained net worth from when the marriage began. She gets a form of alimony support of which the amount depends on whether or not she is employed and how much she makes. Kids get a fixed amount of support depending on your income. ( all the above assuming the husband makes more than the wife). Accrued retirement from both are prorated for the length of time the marriage existed. Custody of kids is shared unless abuse is proven. All quite reasonable IMHO.
To be honest with you I have never seen a prenup and don't need one, partly because I am not really wealthy and due to the fact that the legal system is still quite 'reasonable' here. (That's why Boris Beckers wife moved to Florida and established residency there.. so she could file for divorce in the 'free for all' courts in the US instead of in Europe)
I am curious though and wonder if prenups usually contain similar conditions as I listed above. Not looking for specifics, but just want to understand better how the 'lesser partner'(bad term I know but can't think of a better one) is usually treated in these agreements.
Any insight is appreciated..
Tiger,
I was wondering if rich women ever made their fiance' sign a pre-nup before they got married?
I saw a movie once where a rich heiress was to marry a regular joe with nothing by comparison to her, but He was actually planning to marry her with the purpose of "scamming" her money from her, planning for her to have an "accident" and lose her life , leaving him with hundreds of millions she had. However during the course of his plan (he had other parties to assist him) He actually fell in love with this girl and changed his mind, but he was afraid his helpers would carry though with the plan for her murder, and he didn't , or was afraid to tell his fiance' of the plan because she would not want him then, so in the event she would find out, he did something to "prove he was truly in love with her" He made up a pre-nup of sorts stating in the event of her death He rejected all her millions, all of it was to go to charities, and nothing to him. The movie is called " Masquerade" starring Rob Lowe, I think Jennifer Tilly was the heiress. Anyway do rich women protect their fortunes with pre-nups too? Dave
Is it automatically half or does any sense of fairness come into play? e.g. Having just gotten divorced, my financial assets are rather well defined. Would a new wife who divorced me after 2 years (and getting her green card), get half of our combined increase in wealth? I'd hope a judge would take into consideration that it took 25 years to build the wealth, for which the lady had only been part of the scene for 2.
Kevin C.
Are you an archeologist, perchance ;)?.Whadaya worried about Sandro? Think he might start digging into ............... you? :o
Whadaya worried about Sandro? Think he might start digging into ............... you? :o
Dobra David, you're answering posts from 3.5+ years ago made by someone who hasn't been seen here at RWD for more than a year, so don't hold your breath. Are you an archeologist, perchance ;)?.
No, I'm an open book ;) :D
I was wondering if he might have similar interests (www.floriani.it/archeo-eng.htm).
Actually. it's a subject I occasionally teach. Are you familiar with Dr. Kenneth Harl?No, I'm not much into coins. Have you read Michael D. Coe's Breaking the Maya Code ? I think it's one of the best-written accounts of solving a centuries-long archeological puzzle.
No, I'm not much into coins. Have you read Michael D. Coe's Breaking the Maya Code ? I think it's one of the best-written accounts of solving a centuries-long archeological puzzle.
No, my area of interest is middle east and east European - spent 5 years in the middle east.Then you may have heard of our Professor Paolo Matthiae, discoverer of Ebla and director of its site expedition since 1963.
Here is a topic that has never failed to get a bunch of people debating
BillyB, Thanks for the links. I did the math on the links that you provided and it comes out to about 65% for Russia and if we assume the same marriage rate for Ukraine it comes out to about 63%. I checked a bunch of other sites to try to get a more reliable figure and there really isn't one out there, but the vast majority place the rate in the range of 43-45%. My impression is that this is closer to the truth. The US comes in around 52-55%.
I can certainly sympathize with your divorce ordeal. I have heard enough stories and experienced enough to confirm what you say. Of course in any divorce neither party will feel that they were dealt with fairly. My ex pulled all kinds of tricks trying to sway the judge to her side but fortunately for me her actions made it impossible for him to take her side and I came out relatively okay. Of course it took tens of thousands in attorneys' fees to respond to her outragious claims, most of which I paid, so I guess that in that sense I got screwed.
I think pre-nups are generally a very good idea.
But depends on very individualized situations.
For instance, I did not do a pre-nup.
My reasons:
1) My 2 children and their families were financially secure. (My son has since died from Covid).
2) I had set up trust funds to pay for 4 years of college for my grandchildren.
3) I was old enough (and too tired to go through the search again) that I wouldn't care if I lost a good deal of my own assets. I can live in a small cabin on the side of a mountain now and eat TV dinners.
Actually my now wife (after we married) asked me why I didn't require the pre-nup. I told her the first two items above, but not the third.
If I were much younger (when I remarried) and my children were not financially secure . . . that would be a whole different ballgame and pre-nup would be a certainty.
Trench,
I think ML was trying to tell you that if you want a father figure to guide you, he might be open to adopting a replacement son. Don't let your chance slip away.
Trench,
I believe you are the only person pretending the girl I am talking to is my girlfriend.
I actually have a pretty good life. And I even earn more than minimum wage.
Trench,
What are you talking about? Where are you coming up with this idiotic nonsense? I get the idea you are projecting your own personal delusions.
I went over and met a girl I had been communicating with.
When the war started, she felt a tremendous need to help, and started working as a medic.
We put things on hold. If she survives the war, we will meet again and continue things.
Right now her focus is on saving lives, and is not interested in pursuing a relationship. (The last time she saw her parents was Christmas/New Years before the invasion. She talks to them regularly. If she won't take time out of her life to visit her parents, I trust that she won't take time to go looking for a guy. She's 40 years old, and looking for a husband is not a high priority for her.)
We continue to talk, but we have no serious commitment to each other. I would consider us to be on each other's "has potential" list.
Trying to get married as soon as possible is not a high priority for me.
Right now, we are both comfortable with where things stand. Neither of us is searching to find someone.
If she survives the war, we will meet and go from there.
The only person who considers her my girlfriend is you...or pretending that she is my girlfriend. Are you projecting your own delusions that if you talk to a girl, suddenly she is your girlfriend?
I never harped on what kind of girl she would be if she did a runner. I have no clue what a runner even is.
I have never portrayed it as anything other than it is. You however, keep trying to assume things are different than they are. It appears you are trying to project your delusions on how you think things should be.
What do you mean that I have turned to Russia? I have never had an interest in Russia. I have nothing against Ukrainian women.
I have no idea what a "have on" is. Is this British slang, or is it just drunken incoherence?
What PPL revenue are you talking about? Viber? Or Facebook? If she is thinking she is going to get money from Viber or Facebook for talking to me, she is going to be disappointed. Or are you projecting your unhappiness with getting involved with PPL schemes?
How is she ditching me for a relationship with a local guy? Why do you assume that everyone is obsessed with finding a relationship? Her focus is on trying to help wounded soldiers.
Where do you get the idea that I am angry and bitter? It appears you are once again projecting your emotions towards someone else's situation.
I'm not angry or bitter, but I do get frustrated by your idiotic nonsense. I do ask myself sometimes if you are just playing a fool trying to troll people, if it is drunken nonsense you are posting, or if your idiotic nonsense comes naturally. You remind me a lot of the schizophrenic autistic boy my cousin and his wife adopted who has the mind of a 6 year old who is trapped in a 27 year old body.
Trench,
I haven't touched the status info since I joined. It still says I have never made any trips, and my first trip to Ukraine was 10 years ago. If you are just now paying attention to that stuff...you're a little on the slow side.
When it comes to advice, I consider the source. And seeing as how I am not interested in what you are looking for, I'll pass on your advice.
you are at the penpal stage with this lady, stop using her as a crutch.
This is off topic, but.............................
Trench you've made more than 4 trips (but less than 10) to the FSU?
I have made exactly
Odesa 1
Kyiv 2
Lugansk 1
St Petersburg 1
Dnepropetrovsk 1
Tblisi 1
Voronezh 5
___________
12 trips
Beefarmer, it makes no sense coming on here with your profile back how it was 10 years ago and not reflective of your situation today. Posters can't necessarily follow all members here from memory or just plain guess. The idea is to update it so those members that don't or can't remember or know, get an idea of where you are at.
. It's fine in your teens, twenties & thirties to have set ideas about marriage as time is in your side, in theory then, but by forties, fifties and thereafter what does it really matter?
Just try and get what you can in terms of life and enjoyment whatever. If it doesn't work out failure at this later stage isn't really a big deal when there are only so many years left.
At the moment you are wasting the biggest opportunity Ukraine, etc has had for Western guys for years. In Ukraine there is both a bad economy with people working around the clock and doing what they can to survive and less eligible men, probably less men in general because of the war. Krim says about 'dewds that have made a success of themselves' but I am betting now that out in Ukraine any passport waving westerner under the age of 60 with just a few bob in his pocket would get hit on by Ukrainian women.
It's literally easier than if has ever been to pick up a genuine Ukrainian lady, why pass it up and risk being stuck alone through your 50s,60s,70s,80s even possibly 90s alone wishing you had acted in your 40s and not wasted this opportunity?
There is having integrity then there is being a stick in the mud old fuddy duddy who is letting life pass him by while clinging to all too rigid notions that makes you far too stiff and starchy for your own good.
No one cares about someone's uptight so called integrity,
you don't have to try to be a saint on this planet just a decent enough person and go out and find some enjoyment.
No one is going to reward you for what you see as integrity.
I'm not talking about a character change here, just loosen up a bit with yourself and realise you don't have to live a stale same o'l same existence.
Otherwise you'll be old before you are actually are old and will have lost out on life.
You can be a decent person without being a square.
Being older can have sone draw for younger girls in certain ways but I don't think it boosts you up as high as you think,
not unless you've become a very eligible (wealthy) bachelor.
I don't see older guys with a crowd of younger girls oogling them lol.