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Author Topic: A Hit on Russia's Opposition  (Read 53348 times)

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Offline jone

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A Hit on Russia's Opposition
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2015, 12:01:07 PM »
Oh come on man, is one negative adjective so much worse than the next? Remember, English is not my native Language, so in the heat of the moment one can sometimes use Words that pops up in ones mind  ;) As far as I'm concerned, there's a difference between unchallenged provocations and reacting to it. I do the latter.

Racial slurs are distinguished from normal profanity by casting slights on a person's heritage.  Such insults have no business being in civilized discussion and you will receive push back from me if you use them regardless of the circumstances.  Surely you are now more educated in the English language and have been put on notice so that you will not use them in the future.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2015, 12:03:19 PM »
Interesting that you chose to assail me for my shortcomings, thus keeping the fire going,  rather than address something I thought vey relevant to RWD.  I repeat my words:

So I ask you, what do your UA friends think about Crimea?  The conflict with insurgents?   The prospects for Ukraine's economic improvement?   The merits of Poroshenko?  The murder of Boris Nemtsov?   Etc.   This would merit its own thread.   

BTW, regarding keeping the fire going, you have the last word.   As my personal psychiatrist,  even if you advise otherwise, I believe enough has been said.  Back to this horrible assassination.


As I already stated, the political discussions are tedious at best.  I'm not interested in starting a thread discussing even more of the same topics that are already going on.


I was in Odessa, and even though people there think of themselves as Russian, they don't want to be part of Russia. 


What economical improvement? 


A lot of people I met didn't understand how things worked in the West.  I even had one person tell me everyone in the US makes 20k a month. 


I also don't think most people understand what will happen with all of these loans being given.  I just read an article that it may total 65 billion in aid and loans to Ukraine from many different countries. 


I've seen some people argue with Bo about Poroshenko and his ill gotten gains.  Most of the people I know think the same way.   It's too early still and these people have been screwed over way too many times.

Offline Gator

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« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2015, 12:11:45 PM »
I believe Russia is just now waking up to the fact that the death of an opposition leader by murder on the streets is a sign to the rest of the world that Russia is not civilized.

You act as if this has never happened before.  Politics in Russia is dirty with no holds barred.  The mass murder of citizens as a ploy to incite a war for favorable election results is so foreign to western thinking that many simply reject it outright as impossible. 



Quote
The fact that Russian mouthpieces on this forum cannot grasp that the world sees this as a degradation of the Russian civilization, is, in and of itself, a tragedy.

The silence is deafening.  Great point.  Keep in mind this murder and the corrupted culture surrounding it is an internal domestic matter, and Russians will need to sort this out among themselves.

Quote
The question on everybody's lips in the governments of Western Europe and North America is 'when' not 'if'....... A show of force is now in order to demonstrate the resolve of these governments.
 

I still believe most will prefer the diplomacy route.  There are many weapons available to the West.  Terminating SWIFT could be done quickly.  Even more damaging would be to reduce Russia's share of the oil and gas export market.  Such would take time, and I imagine much is underway.  Europe would not want to be a slave to Russian energy.    Russia is isolating itself from the world.  In Boris's words as he expressed in the CNN interview, the ways of the 19th C, not the 21st C. 




Offline jone

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« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2015, 12:17:19 PM »
Thought you all might want to see a picture of slain leader Nemstov's girlfriend:

Ukrainian model:  Anna Duritskaya



She was present at the murder.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

lordtiberius

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« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2015, 12:23:34 PM »
Who cares? 

She will be another character in the Kremlin version of Game of Thrones.

Boris Nemtsov was hero of freedom and democracy.  All peoples all over the world who cherish liberty should avenge him.  Cutting SWIFT from Russia would be a good start.

Putin has $200 B in assets to be frozen and confiscated to rebuild Ukraine, Georgia, Chechnya and Dagestan.  I wonder where he could be hiding it.  Germany?

Offline Gator

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« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2015, 12:27:16 PM »

I've seen some people argue with Bo about Poroshenko and his ill gotten gains.  Most of the people I know think the same way.   It's too early still and these people have been screwed over way too many times.

Yes, these people have been screwed over.  I assume more by internal corruption than by being subordinate to Russia.  Nevertheless, it seems Ukrainians want to undertake the path of reform.   I commend this goal, and I wish them the best knowing based on my UN assignments that such changes will take two generations if done in a straight line.  My protest is Russia's interference does not give Ukraine the freedom to even start this journey, much less follow a straight line. 

Think about this - when have we as Americans ever undertaken something looking two generations out?  Using your words, indeed "It's  too early..."   


Offline jone

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« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2015, 12:34:14 PM »
Who cares? 

She will be another character in the Kremlin version of Game of Thrones.

Boris Nemtsov was hero of freedom and democracy.  All peoples all over the world who cherish liberty should avenge him.  Cutting SWIFT from Russia would be a good start.

Putin has $200 B in assets to be frozen and confiscated to rebuild Ukraine, Georgia, Chechnya and Dagestan.  I wonder where he could be hiding it.  Germany?

200 Billion is speculative.  I have heard wildly disparate numbers.  My guess he is only worth around 40 Billion.  Not even a significant figure.  A billion here, a billion there, then we're talking about some real money!
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline The Natural

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« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2015, 12:34:28 PM »

I still believe most will prefer the diplomacy route.  There are many weapons available to the West.  Terminating SWIFT could be done quickly.  Even more damaging would be to reduce Russia's share of the oil and gas export market. 

  Cutting SWIFT from Russia would be a good start.


Some experts say that the sanctions imposed on Russia is Close to a declaration of war. Doing what you suggest will be a certain declaration of war on Russia. Think about it once more, is this something you really want to see done?

Offline jone

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« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2015, 12:34:56 PM »
Yes, these people have been screwed over.  I assume more by internal corruption than by being subordinate to Russia.  Nevertheless, it seems Ukrainians want to undertake the path of reform.   I commend this goal, and I wish them the best knowing based on my UN assignments that such changes will take two generations if done in a straight line.  My protest is Russia's interference does not give Ukraine the freedom to even start this journey, much less follow a straight line. 

Think about this - when have we as Americans ever undertaken something looking two generations out?  Using your words, indeed "It's  too early..."

Our space program.  One that has lain dormant too long.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2015, 12:36:13 PM »
200 Billion is speculative.  I have heard wildly disparate numbers.  My guess he is only worth around 40 Billion.  Not even a significant figure.  A billion here, a billion there, then we're talking about some real money!


It's interesting about all of this talk regarding stealing 200 billion.  How the hell is he going to enjoy whatever is the amount he has stolen?  It seems Putin is more worried about staying alive and needs to stay in power to do so.

Offline Gator

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« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2015, 12:37:00 PM »

Putin has $200 B in assets to be frozen and confiscated to rebuild Ukraine, Georgia, Chechnya and Dagestan.  I wonder where he could be hiding it.  Germany?

Manny and Shadow each are managing a chunk.   :D :D :D


I imagine most of Putin's assets are illiquid.  I guess it is in Russian corporations and real estate owned by his cronies, not as shares or tenants in common, but something cleverly disguised.

I don't know if Putin has any "Run Away from Home Money."  To where could he run and be safe?  He can not leave.  He will stay with the ship much like Saddam and Hitler.  Hopefully, he does not take the ship down with him. 

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2015, 12:40:52 PM »
Some experts say that the sanctions imposed on Russia is Close to a declaration of war. Doing what you suggest will be a certain declaration of war on Russia. Think about it once more, is this something you really want to see done?


I do think there is a line where you take enough away and they feel like they have nothing else to lose.  Would SWIFT be that breaking point? 

Offline Gator

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« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2015, 12:41:15 PM »
Some experts say that the sanctions imposed on Russia is Close to a declaration of war. Doing what you suggest will be a certain declaration of war on Russia. Think about it once more, is this something you really want to see done?

Not now.  I suggest Putin not cross any more lines in Ukraine. 


Yes terminating SWIFT is severe.  It was done to Iran and it hurt the most.  Yet, they managed to survive and continue. 


Offline Gator

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« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2015, 12:43:23 PM »
Our space program.  One that has lain dormant too long.

This did not require a wholesale change in how we worked. 

We shared in many successes along the way.  Hopefully, Ukraine would experience the same milestones, see the light at the end of the tunnel, and keep going.

Offline The Natural

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« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2015, 12:47:46 PM »

I do think there is a line where you take enough away and they feel like they have nothing else to lose.  Would SWIFT be that breaking point?

I believe so, based on earlier Readings of People who knows about economics.

So I just made a quick search now, and this sounds pretty Dangerous:

"Speaking at a panel in Davos on Friday Andrei Kostin, chief executive of VTB, Russia’s second-largest bank, said: “If there is no Swift, there is no banking . . . relationship, it means that the countries are on the verge of war, or they are definitely in a cold war.”

“The next day, the Russian and American ambassadors would have to leave the capitals,” he added.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7020c50c-a30a-11e4-9c06-00144feab7de.html#axzz3TAI1DMTR

Offline mendeleyev

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« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2015, 03:30:12 PM »
(Personal footnote to the following: I sat in TV van, crowded but relatively comfortable, while outside thousands of marchers braved a steady drizzle/light rain to pay their respects to Boris Nemtsov. We had satellite screens not only of Moscow and Piter, but several other Russian cities. The turnout was much lighter outside the two capitals. My thought was that this event has done at least two things. First, it may have given new resolve to the opposition movement. Second, and this would be true no matter where fingers end up pointing for the murder, but there is a sense that nothing, no act so brazen, is beyond happening to those who oppose the status quo. That also, has to be felt by opposition leaders.)

From the Mendeleyev Journal:

Sunday's memorial march for Boris Nemtsov was a success for the opposition, prompting the government to claim that only five to seven thousand people showed up to march in Moscow. A few hours later the police admitted that the original number had come from the first wave of marchers.

The main rally started about two hours late due to security measures: everyone exiting Metro stations for the rally were required to go through x-ray screening, just like in airports. The march got off to a very late start as police required everyone exiting the Metro stations to go thru x-ray screening, just like at airports, before they could enter the march lines, a fact verified by police and overhead photo drones.

(photo: Ilya Varlamov) height=409
(photo: Ilya Varlamov)

Moscow police revised their estimate a few hours later, claiming 21,000 persons had made it though the security inspection. However later in the evening, police contacted media saying that they were revising numbers again, and at this writing those new numbers are not available.

(photo: Ilya Varlamov) height=404
(photo: Ilya Varlamov)

The BBC estimated the crowd at nearly 100,000 and Aljazeera Network counted approximately 70,000+. Trusted photographer Ilya Varlamov, with his overhead drone photo technology, says software estimates indicated some 51,600 in the second wave of the march.

(photo: Ilya Varlamov) height=406
(photo: Ilya Varlamov)

Thousands also marched in other Russian cities, many carrying blue and gold Ukrainian flags. The rally in Saint Petersburg was attended by approximately 10,000 marchers. Protesters across the nation carried flowers, and many tied black ribbons atop the Russian flags they carried.

Boris Nemtsov memorial march Ilya Varlamov d height=404
(photo: Ilya Varlamov)

Despite light rain in both Moscow and Saint Petersburg, the marches were somber evens for the most part. Some smaller groups among the marchers shouted chants, but the most constant noise was the sound of overhead police helicopters. Television and radio crews weaved through the crowd, looking for familiar faces to interview.

(Newcaster TV/Open Russia) height=338
(Newcaster TV/Open Russia)

Just two days prior to his murder, Nemtsov has been scheduled to lead a protest rally in Moscow. The original petition for by organizers was to rally against the Putin governments role in the Ukraine war, against ongoing government corruption, and to protest rising inflation brought on by the governments "reverse sanctions" which ban import of Western food products. Organizers changed the focus of the rally after Nemtsov's murder.

Boris Nemtsov memorial march Ilya Varlamov f height=404
(photo: Ilya Varlamov)
 
The police presence was very high but the march was peaceful, at times even taking on somber tones. Police so far are reporting 21 arrests, with 20 youth nationalists detained for attempting to harass older persons in the crowd. One other arrest has been reported: Oleksiy Goncharenko, a member of the Ukrainian Parliament in Kyiv (Kiev), was arrested after he was recognized by police.


Ukrainian parliament member Oleksiy Goncharenko was at the Moscow rally honouring Boris Nemtsov. height=352
(Ukrainian parliament member Oleksiy Goncharenko was at the Moscow rally honouring Boris Nemtsov.)

Goncharenko claimed that he was picked out of the crowd because of his shirt, which had a photo of Nemtsov with the phrase "Heroes Never Die!" Russian police say that investigators may hold the parliamentarian on murder charges stemming from a deadly fire that took place in Odessa (Ukraine) during a pro-Russian protest last year.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 03:39:34 PM by mendeleyev »
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline jone

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« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2015, 03:38:54 PM »
For those of you wondering why I included the picture above of Nemstov's girlfriend is that one of the big spins coming from the Kremlin is that Nemstov was killed as part of a contract killing organized by his wife or former girlfriend.  The article that I read was sure to include that Nemstov began dating her when she was only 19 years old and that they had been together for four years.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline mendeleyev

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« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2015, 03:46:24 PM »
Jone, to be sure the pro-Kremlin bunch will try to make a big deal of the girl as a way to demonize him. That is already happening, as Belvis did yesterday.

Maybe her presence will end up being a big deal, so personally I just want the facts, unvarnished and unspun, to come out.

I also want to know why a city sweeper truck slowed down just seconds prior to the shooting, then stopped in just the right spot to block surveillance cameras from getting a full view. After the shooting, the truck moves again and continues along as if a shooting, with multiple shots, had not just happened next to where it had stopped.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline mendeleyev

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« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2015, 03:49:37 PM »
I am also waiting to see how the Kremlin will spin the arrest of Oleksiy Goncharenko. I was not aware that Russia had the right to prosecute someone from another country, for an alleged crime that happened in another country.  :)
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline jone

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« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2015, 03:51:42 PM »
Stupid move on the part of Goncharenko. 

Plays right into the Kremlin's hands.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline mendeleyev

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« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2015, 03:53:38 PM »
One additional note on the march: I was surprised at the number of older marchers who came out, both in Moscow and in Piter. I had not seen so many of the middle-age to even older voters, part of Putin's core, since the mass events in 2010.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

lordtiberius

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A Hit on Russia's Opposition
« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2015, 03:53:57 PM »
Nemtsov kill video:



English subs

lordtiberius

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« Reply #97 on: March 01, 2015, 03:57:33 PM »
One additional note on the march: I was surprised at the number of older marchers who came out, both in Moscow and in Piter. I had not seen so many of the middle-age to even older voters, part of Putin's core, since the mass events in 2010.

http://twitter.com/ASLuhn

Alec Luhn reports Russian nationalists among the Nemtsov marchers.  "Don't blame us"

Offline jone

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« Reply #98 on: March 01, 2015, 04:07:26 PM »
Jone, to be sure the pro-Kremlin bunch will try to make a big deal of the girl as a way to demonize him. That is already happening, as Belvis did yesterday.

Maybe her presence will end up being a big deal, so personally I just want the facts, unvarnished and unspun, to come out.

I also want to know why a city sweeper truck slowed down just seconds prior to the shooting, then stopped in just the right spot to block surveillance cameras from getting a full view. After the shooting, the truck moves again and continues along as if a shooting, with multiple shots, had not just happened next to where it had stopped.

Yeah, I didn't know why a sweeper truck would stop there unless to block camera access.  It should be easy to track down which truck it was and why the guy had stopped.  From a view from afar it looks like a clearly planned and coordinated hit with elements of the city services involved.


Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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« Reply #99 on: March 01, 2015, 05:00:17 PM »
Mendy, thanks again for sharing your reports to RWD as well as to the world.

 

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