Why Ukraine ?

[ML]

I pay the same everywhere (even in taxis) as the locals do.

I specifically asked you about Museums and Opera, etc.
And if not related to you because of your experience, then how about prices paid in such places by 'ordinary' westerns?

Many do support the militants but they would not support a Russian invasion into Ukraine.

There is in fact an ongoing Russian invasion into Ukraine.
One would have to be totally dishonest to deny this.
And vast majority of Russian citizens do support this invasion.

. . . those most critical of Ukraine have been Ukrainians who came here to escape the fighting. They're absolutely furious about Maidan.

You are being quite disingenuous in your responses.
Those furious about the Maidan are not loyal Ukrainians.  They are mostly ethnic Russians.

[Boethius]

Those furious about the Maidan are not loyal Ukrainians.  They are mostly ethnic Russians.

Donetsk, by Soviet design, was ethnically Russian.  But until Maidan, polls showed they largely viewed themselves as Ukrainians (citizenship wise, not ethnically).


Even with Maidan, there would have been no war without Russian interference.

[mhr7]

I pay the same everywhere (even in taxis) as the locals do.

I specifically asked you about Museums and Opera, etc.
And if not related to you because of your experience, then how about prices paid in such places by 'ordinary' westerns?

Many do support the militants but they would not support a Russian invasion into Ukraine.

There is in fact an ongoing Russian invasion into Ukraine.
One would have to be totally dishonest to deny this.
And vast majority of Russian citizens do support this invasion.

. . . those most critical of Ukraine have been Ukrainians who came here to escape the fighting. They're absolutely furious about Maidan.

You are being quite disingenuous in your responses.
Those furious about the Maidan are not loyal Ukrainians.  They are mostly ethnic Russians.

What part of "pay the same everywhere" don't you understand? I make no comment on what other westerners pay.

Why do you think it's illegal to talk about Russian soldiers in Ukraine? Because it's so popular? Putin knows all too well that the deaths of Russian soldiers doesn't play well with the population. Sorry, no the Russians would not support an invasion. When I say invasion I mean full out invasion, not just a few hundred Russian soldiers who definitely are there. Russians still remember Afghanistan and they don't want it repeated.

Ah, I see. Ukrainians who criticize Ukraine aren't real Ukrainians.

[Boethius]

No, ML is correct.  If you go to state museums, or the ballet/opera, you will pay more as a foreigner than do Russian citizens.  I don't object to this, the state is subsidizing the culture for its citizens.

[mhr7]

No, ML is correct.  If you go to state museums, or the ballet/opera, you will pay more as a foreigner than do Russian citizens.  I don't object to this, the state is subsidizing the culture for its citizens.

I get charged the same as Russians, They don't ask for a passport and as far as they know, I'm Russian.

[Boethius]

Yes, it's an honour system.  However, you should be paying more at most museums. 

[alex330]

I get that a certain type of guy here.......would go to Ukraine......because of a more desperate situation. More desperate to "leave" Ukraine because of the current economic/political situation.

I have always said this and I still see it to this day. The Russian women we know here are more desperate to leave the country than the Ukrainian women. In fact we know several currently selling their businesses in Russia in a desperate bid to leave. Most of the Russian women we know here arrived on a tourist VISA and got hitched to the first decent guy so they could secure a green card.


The Ukrainians are very proud, and many that I have met had no desire to leave. They only left because of the man they loved.

Here in USA, spouse and I have had opposite experience you claim regarding Russians.
We have had to cut off socializing with several Russians. They, each and every one, fully support all aggression that Russia has taken against Ukraine.

Agree with ML. We have cut ties with several Russian friends here in the US because they fly the separatist flag and say the US and Ukraine are the culprits and killers. They support the invasion to "protect" the ethnic Russians.These same women are trying to secure a green card here. It disgusts me tbh.

My wife was threatened in Spain by a group of Russian men because she was Ukrainian.

It is not all Russians. We have several very close Russian friends who are more enlightened and realize what is really happening. They do not criticize Russia, but remain quiet on the matter.  You can look on vk and see that many do support it.

[BillyB]

No, ML is correct.  If you go to state museums, or the ballet/opera, you will pay more as a foreigner than do Russian citizens. 

True. Many FSU women I've dated told me they'll do the talking and to keep my mouth shut when we are buying tickets to events.

[Gator]

You write:  You are seeing something that is not there. I only ask "why" not many men were no longer visiting "Russia".

Here are your words:

So I and others are not 'seeing something that is not there.'

It is right there.

Capt B said he did not intend offense.  That usually is good enough around here.  "Intent" was good enough with FBI Director Comey in deciding not to prosecute Hillary of something far more grievous.

I understand your UW wife is patriotic, and resided near the conflict.  My wife is Russian and she refuses to talk about Ukraine other than it is sad her blood cousins are being killed.    None of her RW friends talk about Ukraine, much less boast about it.    I have not encountered anyone similar to the boasting Russians at your social gathering.   

I met women in Ukraine.  I liked them.  I married a Russian, who I would have married had she been from Ukraine.  Wait!........she is Ukrainian in a way, having descended from Ukrainian Cossacks displaced by Stalin generations ago to Siberia.    She loves salo. 

[LAman]

No, ML is correct.  If you go to state museums, or the ballet/opera, you will pay more as a foreigner than do Russian citizens.  I don't object to this, the state is subsidizing the culture for its citizens.

I disagree Boe, you can (and I have) easily order online tickets to many places/events in Moscow, it does not ask questions if you are/are not a Russian citizen and have any separate pricing. I do remember a few years back at Peter Paul Fortress that the girl I was with told me do not speak while we were going to pay for tickets. And of course, in Ukraine, I was told countless times don't say anything when we were getting prices for taxi's....I knew why!!! Yes, you can go to almost any country and pay a 'foreigner tax'.

[LAman]

I believe the real reason guys look more to Ukraine is because of visa issues in visiting Russia. Over last ten years this is biggest reason I have heard. For US citizens, the new 3 year visa has made it simpler to visit Russia, which is why I have been twice to Russia this year. I know of many others going to Russia now and if you look at Trip Advisor, lots more action with questions about visiting Russia( many different countries).

I have no dog in the fight between Russia and Ukraine. I do as I please, go where I please. My passport has plenty of stamps from Ukraine and now more of Russia. Never have I ever been asked about this. If I find my partner it doesn't matter what country she is from. While I can no longer go straight from Russia-Ukraine, there are plenty of indirect flights.

I have spent almost 2 months this year in Russia. I haven't met ANYONE that is happy about what is going on in eastern Ukraine, yet they also feel there is nothing they can do about it. I have not heard anything said negative about USA.... but they do have many questions about USA. Never have I felt uneasy, threatened, look down upon in Russia even though everyone knows I am American and I have even been in bars/clubs late at night.

[Boethius]

I disagree Boe, you can (and I have) easily order online tickets to many places/events in Moscow, it does not ask questions if you are/are not a Russian citizen and have any separate pricing. I do remember a few years back at Peter Paul Fortress that the girl I was with told me do not speak while we were going to pay for tickets. And of course, in Ukraine, I was told countless times don't say anything when we were getting prices for taxi's....I knew why!!! Yes, you can go to almost any country and pay a 'foreigner tax'.

I asked the better half, as he was in Saint Petersburg this summer to visit the graves of his ancestors at the Novodevichy Cemetery.  He said the cost at both the Winter Palace and Peterhof was slightly higher for tourists, but insignificant (150 roubles or less).  No one asks for proof of where you're from, and the local price is for both Russians and Belarussians. 

[CaptB]

I have re-read my initial post and can see how it could be taken another way. To the two gentlemen whose toes I may have stepped-on.......i apologize. I guess I could have titled the thread......"Why no longer pursuit of RW from Russia" ? After reading the other post here.....I can see this is a very sensitive issue. My intent was not to start a "political" discussion on Russian/Ukraine relations......but on the basic idea of why most seem to be going to Ukraine these last few years. One of the things I dislike about frequenting this forum is.......a real lack of monitoring. Are there no longer folks monitoring the forum. I am "not" saying that most of the replies here.....do not have value. I am saying that when you have to dig through 90% of replies that are off-topic.......it really degrades the use of the forum as a tool. On the old RWG......members were kept on topic. No one is saying (especially myself) that you can't speak your mind.....just speak it on an appropriate thread.....or start your own topic. For those of you who have made multiple trips to the FSU.....or have found a partner.....the (small) cost you save not having pay for a visa.....can not be the main reason folks are going to Ukraine. For those who have not made any trips.....visa cost is insignificant.


So let me rephrase my original title:  Why are so few going to Russia/ why so many are turning to Ukraine ?






Thanks for getting back on topic


Capt B

[alex330]

Why are so few going to Russia/ why so many are turning to Ukraine ?

Where are you seeing these numbers Capt?


The main reasons for going to Ukraine have already been touched on. VISA, marriage agency hype, and distaste for the current political climate in Russia.

[msmobyone]

Seriously have to take issue with comments from members who suggest all Russians 'support' the Kremlin away games in Ukraine.

Two examples .  My ex- wife to be and her fellow Russians are 'off the social list' of a lovely UA lady based on the govt. policy...i.e if you are Russia ...'go away'..

V never did like to discuss politics and had a v.myoptic view of UA people before living here. That isn't the case, now

In Sochi we have friends from Kherson, Donbass and Crimea.. Most prefer not to talk about politics, either and in the case of Donbass are ambivalent towards anyone resorting to military / violence..just seeking a peaceful existence.

Yes, I am shocked that many of our Russian friends believe the Russian are the humanitarians..and the west the aggressors...full stop...

However, short of all out war..I cannot see Russians being precluded access to western nations based on the passport. It's a truly stupid reason to avoid dating a lady you really like.

It's an excuse..nothing more..

Really, let's hope this situation passes, soon

[Slumba]

For American guys, I think:

Ukraine is seen as more western facing

Not a Great Power country (Russia is),  less threatening

Underdog status, therefore more sympathy

All Ukrainians are white, while some Russians have what seems weird admixture to an American

[mhr7]

For American guys, I think:
All Ukrainians are white, while some Russians have what seems weird admixture to an American

I think that may be the most unique, racist and just plain bizarre reason I've ever read. Really, that reason never crossed my mind in any way, shape or form.

"I don't want to date a RW because they seem to be some weird admixture". Only you Slumba.

When was the last time you were in Ukraine? Sure they're all white?

[Slumba]

I think that may be the most unique, racist and just plain bizarre reason I've ever read. Really, that reason never crossed my mind in any way, shape or form.

"I don't want to date a RW because they seem to be some weird admixture". Only you Slumba.

When was the last time you were in Ukraine? Sure they're all white?

How about you don't put quotes around something I never wrote.  And of course I am generalizing...

Guys know almost instantly if they find a woman's face attractive.  Her social status, how much money she has, none of it matters. 

A very attractive Ukr. girl will almost always look like the "hot girls" you grew up with.  They are attractive but look familiar.

e.g. this girl from some PPL site:



Attractive Russians (and some can be very very beautiful for sure!) look a little more "alien" which can translate to "unreachable" or "unapproachable" in their beauty. It could be Tatar, could be the legacy of Genghis Khan, could be the Finno-Ugric.

e.g. Elena Korikova, actress



or

Elvira Sabirova, actress with Tatar descent



In general, guys are attracted to what they are familiar with - if the Ukrainian "pings" as being a bit more familiar to him vs a Russian who looks slightly different (not bad, just different), the initial comfort level will be higher.  So if a guy goes on a site with lots of pictures of different women, he will subconsciously think "these Ukrainian girls are compatible with me".

[mhr7]

I understand some guys are attracted to (feel safe with) what's familiar. But to list it as a reason American men go to Ukraine is absurd in my opinion. I think guys who look for a foreign spouse aren't looking for something familiar, they can get that at home. Part of this adventure IS that there are differences.

It's your post, you did write it. Don't backpedal away from that.

[msmobyone]

Slumba,

until 1991 families were moved all over the Soviet Union and some peoples were forcibly moved en masse.

Borders between SSR's - Republics - were not exactly 'borders' and there was lots of 'mixing up' of gene pools.

For sure, Belarusian women TEND to be blonder  - women in Odessa MIGHT to have a mix from Greco- Roman, Golden-Horde and Ottoman eras, women from - say - Urdmurtia region - MIGHT look more Oriental ...I defy ANYONE to walk around - say - Kharhiv(ov) and tell me that a lady is 'Russian / Ukrainian' with any degree of accuracy.

[Boethius]

My better half could do that, moby.   He could also tell you if they had German, or Polish, or Jewish ancestors recently.  In his teens and twenties, he studied art, and used to carry a sketchbook.  He would sketch people only, so he became familiar with all the archetypes in different regions.  But he will say that they are more often than not similar, as at one point in history, they all spoke the same language. 

When he left the navy, his belongings were searched (routine).  His sketchbook was confiscated.

For American guys, I think:

All Ukrainians are white, while some Russians have what seems weird admixture to an American

BWHAHAHA.

That must be why their poetry is filled with references to "kari ochi".  I have known Ukrainians who are darker than first nations, dark eyes (dark brown or green), jet black hair, olive skin  This is a Ukrainian archetype that does not exist in Russia.

[msmobyone]

My better half could do that, moby.   He could also tell you if they had German, or Polish, or Jewish ancestors recently.

Boethius

I've been to most cities in the Former SU and I'd like to put that to the test:))   

I reckon I'm pretty good at guessing ethnicity but often get it SO wrong .... the world is a smaller place

Why do the model agencies send so many scouts to Siberia ?

[Boethius]

Same reason they used to send scouts to Alberta.  The dry air means the skin is usually very good.

Siberians may now be viewed as "Russian", but they were mixed - Russians, Ukrainians, and Germans.  If you go south of the Amur River, there was nothing but Ukrainians.  Even the village names were Ukrainian.

The top models today are largely not Russian-

http://www.maxim.com/women/forbes-top-earning-models-2016-8

[msmobyone]

Same reason they used to send scouts to Alberta.  The dry air means the skin is usually very good.

Interesting - but having experienced the air / smell from Aluminium plants and other noxious outputs in Krasnoyarsk - their skin must be remarkable:))

V used to say that she had youthful skin as they hibernated in winter - retaining youthfulness

Siberians may now be viewed as "Russian", but they were mixed - Russians, Ukrainians, and Germans.  If you go south of the Amur River, there is nothing but Ukrainians.  Even the village names are Ukrainian.

Indeed, when the city was celebrating it's founder's day it had all the above plus Lithuanian communities.

The top models today are largely not Russian-

http://www.maxim.com/women/forbes-top-earning-models-2016-8

Indeed ?  That was surprising news..

I went on the net to check and your assertion is backed up !!!

http://www.pbs.org/pov/girlmodel/infographic-model-fashion-industry/#.UVIyDBxIuSr

TOP 10 MODEL-PRODUCING NATIONS (PER CAPITA) »

1. Estonia, 2. Iceland, 3. Lithuania, 4. Denmark, 5. Latvia, 6. Sweden, 7. Netherlands, 8. Slovakia, 9. Norway, 10. Czech Republic

TOP 10 MODEL-PRODUCING NATIONS (OVERALL)

1. USA, 2. Brazil, 3. Russia, 4. UK, 5. Netherlands, 6. Canada, 7. Germany, 8. Poland, 9. Australia, 10. France

[Slumba]

I understand some guys are attracted to (feel safe with) what's familiar. But to list it as a reason American men go to Ukraine is absurd in my opinion. I think guys who look for a foreign spouse aren't looking for something familiar, they can get that at home. Part of this adventure IS that there are differences.

It's your post, you did write it. Don't backpedal away from that.

Some guys look for the foreign/exotic, or at least a splash of it. These might be the "let's go on an adventure" types.

Some other guys are basically looking for familiarity, but other traits internal or external (what those are is open to debate) they feel they can't find in USA.