Second Meeting - Vacation - Something Rotten In Denmark / Nikolaev...?

[mendeleyev]

To the original poster: Like so many others, I agree that it is far too early to be vacationing together somewhere. At this stage she should be introducing you to her city and region, helping you get an idea of what her life and background is like, etc. You've not even met her family yet.

If this girl lived 5 hours away from your home, would you be considering a vacation to another country at this stage in your relationship?

Save the honeymoon for the honeymoon.

[dragonkid]

Not exactly, that's the soul's beauty of FSU women, they are strong minded and are strongly courageous when they are interested in a man, not like their western cousines, who have been raised in the "chut, don't show him that you COULD be attracted to him".
So they are absolutely capable to push their curiosity without any shame and let you clearly know that they want to give you a try and even that's YOU SHOULD give her a try. But please DK, consider and don't forget that they have a real and higher proud than the western ladies.
So when you start to be used to such women things start to become clearer and you forget the headaches you were getting with western women, unless you are good enough in the game to decrypt the BS they are giving you all the time.
At the end the most important is to find a lady seriously interested in you, and finally there are not a lot. And you neeed a woman capable to endure the painful immigration journey. Because, that's a pain in the ass DK, believe me.

I will explain myself more clearly. lyndontom, i looked back on his posts, he talks about possible tours, paid for introduction services. He says he has dated a few women with kids and he is around my age. He does the WMVM approach, now lets presume he tells these women he is going to meet others etc. If he didn't, this would be a whole different story. In russia a woman in my age bracket with kids, wouldn't be wanted by most of the guys there, this is even in the UK, so what guy travels to russia at my age to date women with kids? Only guys 35+ would consider a woman with kids, as the majority of women will have kids, it is not a bad thing. He says he has talked to women more beautiful than the women i have posted.... blah blah blah. Truth is he has dated women that have less value than the women i know, so they are more desperate than the women i know. Key here is desperation and value, if i went on a date with for example.... Emma watson, do you think i would be able to say to her "you know what, i got other candidates which i am going to try out, and i will get right back to you after". She would chuck me out the door, too rightly, as she has a high value, she has options, she is not desperate.

I dated my russian ex, told the women who contacted me i found someone else. One of them i showed on here, by far she was the most beautiful one i had the chance to meet, We talked, she was coming to moscow to see me for a few days. When i told her i found someone else, she said "okay". After me and my ex broke up, i thought i would give it another shot with the girl i turned away for my ex, didn't work, she was pissed on what i did, said i was rude, a dick for doing that, you name it, she said it to me. Why did she behave like this? Because she had a high value, my ex would push me to meet other women, it was a test, she had a high value, women with a high value don't need to take crap for a westerner. unless he has an extremely high value which will tempt her to swallow her own pride and reconsider. 

We can all blame the women for not being right etc but unless with give each woman our all, why would they give us their all? Too rightly it will end before it even started, and we will need to lower our standards for women that feel like we are above them, so we can shit all over them and they will take it.

In FSU countries, dating a foreign man is considered pretty tacky (According to someone who told me on here), so what would you think would be their reaction if this foreigner treated them like a tinder swipe. No way do i believe fsuw are fragile flowers, but they have ego's, some have standards, if you want 90 cents to the dollar. Do the WMVM approach and not tell the women what you are doing, or do the WMVO approach, but telling these women you are going to measure them up against other women, you will be left with the women that are 50 cents to the dollar rather than 90 cents to the dollar for example.

[lyndontom]

I will explain myself more clearly. lyndontom, i looked back on his posts, he talks about possible tours, paid for introduction services. He says he has dated a few women with kids and he is around my age. He does the WMVM approach, now lets presume he tells these women he is going to meet others etc. If he didn't, this would be a whole different story. In russia a woman in my age bracket with kids, wouldn't be wanted by most of the guys there, this is even in the UK, so what guy travels to russia at my age to date women with kids? Only guys 35+ would consider a woman with kids, as the majority of women will have kids, it is not a bad thing. He says he has talked to women more beautiful than the women i have posted.... blah blah blah. Truth is he has dated women that have less value than the women i know, so they are more desperate than the women i know. Key here is desperation and value, if i went on a date with for example.... Emma watson, do you think i would be able to say to her "you know what, i got other candidates which i am going to try out, and i will get right back to you after". She would chuck me out the door, too rightly, as she has a high value, she has options, she is not desperate.

I dated my russian ex, told the women who contacted me i found someone else. One of them i showed on here, by far she was the most beautiful one i had the chance to meet, We talked, she was coming to moscow to see me for a few days. When i told her i found someone else, she said "okay". After me and my ex broke up, i thought i would give it another shot with the girl i turned away for my ex, didn't work, she was pissed on what i did, said i was rude, a dick for doing that, you name it, she said it to me. Why did she behave like this? Because she had a high value, my ex would push me to meet other women, it was a test, she had a high value, women with a high value don't need to take crap for a westerner. unless he has an extremely high value which will tempt her to swallow her own pride and reconsider. 

We can all blame the women for not being right etc but unless with give each woman our all, why would they give us their all? Too rightly it will end before it even started, and we will need to lower our standards for women that feel like we are above them, so we can shit all over them and they will take it.

In FSU countries, dating a foreign man is considered pretty tacky (According to someone who told me on here), so what would you think would be their reaction if this foreigner treated them like a tinder swipe. No way do i believe fsuw are fragile flowers, but they have ego's, some have standards, if you want 90 cents to the dollar. Do the WMVM approach and not tell the women what you are doing, or do the WMVO approach, but telling these women you are going to measure them up against other women, you will be left with the women that are 50 cents to the dollar rather than 90 cents to the dollar for example.

Oh dear, DK. You've really shown your worth here.  Let me break it down for you. For starters, show me - in context - where I've discussed possible tours. Is this quote below what you've used to jump to a conclusion skewed exactly as you'd prefer to portray it?

I haven’t tried a group tour and I personally do not feel it’s the right approach for me. This is based on the demographic of the lady I’m searching for, the restricted/pressured nature of it and not being so flexible in my travel dates, and has some here have mentioned the intentions of some of the ladies will inevitably be less than honourable.

Other have already pointed it out, but i'll reiterate it - your stupidity shows no bounds. Yes, I have used introduction agencies in the past when I've been short of time and visiting a new city in FSU. Yes, I went on a date with someone with a child. A mutual friend introduced us, said that she was a fantastic girl and been treated badly in the past. Indeed she was and I won't hold it against her because she has a child. She is still young, stunningly pretty, independent, intelligent and had a very pleasant personality. The reason I did not pursue her further was that she was working 3 jobs to support her child and family and it was a big commitment for someone to begin a long distance relationship. Should she be confined to the 'ruined forever' scrapheap of women with no self-value because the all-knowing DK is the leading authority on the subject?

My recent searches and dates have been with women without children because at the present time I feel it would be a less complex situation to find a partner and I have no personal experience in bringing up a child. Would I date a value-less lady with a child in future? I certainly wouldn't rule it out; but I don't hold such hypocritical views on some things as you do. For what its worth, I have also done WOVO visits as well so again, please don't claim that you know everything or what I do or don't tell the ladies that I've met.

In one sentence, you talk about wanting to marry a virgin lady of 'value' yet you show pictures of ladies taking selfies in their shades, high heels and fake tan wishing they were Kim Kardashian. The truth is you have no idea what you're looking for and you have no concept of what a lady with 'value' really is, not to mention you've made a grand total of how many visits to FSU despite professing to know everything about everyone, everywhere?

You spoke about self-respect before. Enlighten us all, when you find your cossack virgin and she agrees to marry you - a casanova and former playboy - where will her self-worth rank on the scale?

If the ex-girlfriend who clearly wants nothing to do with you suddenly changed her mind and said she wants you back, you'd jump at in in a heartbeat. Where would that leave your self-respect, considering you're the divine right when it comes to self-worth and value?  By the way, just to help you out - your ex didn't refuse to take you back because she has high value - she just had saw some sense. But, if it makes you feel better to twist the reality a little...

Lets get this thread back on track because others don't want to see you and I bitching back and forth about trivial things from behind our keyboards. Besides, it's not really a fair battle.

[dragonkid]

Yes, I went on a date with someone with a child. A mutual friend introduced us, said that she was a fantastic girl and been treated badly in the past. Indeed she was and I won't hold it against her because she has a child. She is still young, stunningly pretty, independent, intelligent and had a very pleasant personality.

I dated a few women with children in Ukraine and whilst it wasn't something I was looking for

I know what i want, that is why i went to spain in july rather than russia. For sex, yes, russia is definitely the place to go, but i ain't the type of guy that would travel out at my age to go meet single mums to get married to them. I never messaged a single mum in russia, solely because i wouldn't feel nice messing around with a single mum and hurting someone who might be struggling. I do not want to get married, i am part of MGTOW movement, i do like a relationship, but marriage isn't for me. I do get talked to meeting the "right" girl, that is why the ones you saw me post, i would only meet them for really one thing. Apart from my ex, which is why i met her and not others who would of been easy prey for me (They were going to travel out to my apartment and spend a few days there).

I met another lady who speaks good English, had a good job and also had a young daughter. I felt it could work, but I didn't feel any real connection with her and eventually she withdrew from the process (for want of a better expression) I think primarily because she knew I was going on dates with other ladies concurrently.[/size]

[lyndontom]

I know what i want, that is why i went to spain in july rather than russia. For sex, yes, russia is definitely the place to go, but i ain't the type of guy that would travel out at my age to go meet single mums to get married to them. I never messaged a single mum in russia, solely because i wouldn't feel nice messing around with a single mum and hurting someone who might be struggling. I do not want to get married, i am part of MGTOW movement, i do like a relationship, but marriage isn't for me. I do get talked to meeting the "right" girl, that is why the ones you saw me post, i would only meet them for really one thing. Apart from my ex, which is why i met her and not others who would of been easy prey for me (They were going to travel out to my apartment and spend a few days there).

Then I'm not really sure why you insist on posting on a forum about FSU women and is heavily linked to marriage, but I'm not going to exert any additional energy thinking about it. I still maintain my view that you're confused; now you're saying Russia is only good for women for sex and thats why you're going to Spain. I travel to Spain a few times a month, but I'm not sure its where I'd head just to find a 'girlfriend'. Not long ago, you were looking to live in a village in Russia and marry a virgin. I'm not knocking you, I was probably of the same mindset as you 2-3 years ago and life took me to South-East Asia, but its hard to take you seriously when your story is so inconsistent.

Yes, I did indeed meet a lady with a child a long time ago in Odessa (one date, may years ago) thanks for reminding me, I'm glad to see you've spent your time wisely by diligently going through all of my posts. She was a nice lady with a good job and I did at the time feel that was the reason she didn't pursue it. But if she has a child, is she a woman of lower value in your eyes or because she opted not to meet me further does she go back up a bit? I don't need to be part of a MGTOW movement or use the assistance of a PUA to be able to make my way in life.

My point is simply that people are different and have different circumstances. What ranks as a 9 in your book might be an 8 in mine, or vice-versa appearance-wise. What you might consider a woman of 'low-value' might have qualities you've dismissed on the face of it. Read some of the Trip Reports on here to get an idea of the way the world really works. Life isn't black and white, and as you get a little older you'll realise we all will go through things that will tarnish our 100% records at getting things right in life.

Many guys here have been on a WMVM and will have either been honest or not entirely about meeting other women. Men have succeeded and failed taking both routes; whats important is your ability to deal with different situations and build relationships with people. Your idea about women having options and being of high-value are out of kilter. You posted a photo of a model who had added you as a friend on Facebook or Twitter something the other. Because she was a model and had a specific number of followers, this somehow bumped her up in your estimation. You can't assign an accurate 'value' to a woman unless you're using the right criteria, or looking for the right qualities in a woman, which I don't feel that you are.

[dragonkid]

Then I'm not really sure why you insist on posting on a forum about FSU women and is heavily linked to marriage, but I'm not going to exert any additional energy thinking about it. I still maintain my view that you're confused; now you're saying Russia is only good for women for sex and thats why you're going to Spain. I travel to Spain a few times a month, but I'm not sure its where I'd head just to find a 'girlfriend'. Not long ago, you were looking to live in a village in Russia and marry a virgin. I'm not knocking you, I was probably of the same mindset as you 2-3 years ago and life took me to South-East Asia, but its hard to take you seriously when your story is so inconsistent.

Yes, I did indeed meet a lady with a child a long time ago in Odessa (one date, may years ago) thanks for reminding me, I'm glad to see you've spent your time wisely by diligently going through all of my posts. She was a nice lady with a good job and I did at the time feel that was the reason she didn't pursue it. But if she has a child, is she a woman of lower value in your eyes or because she opted not to meet me further does she go back up a bit? I don't need to be part of a MGTOW movement or use the assistance of a PUA to be able to make my way in life.

My point is simply that people are different and have different circumstances. What ranks as a 9 in your book might be an 8 in mine, or vice-versa appearance-wise. What you might consider a woman of 'low-value' might have qualities you've dismissed on the face of it. Read some of the Trip Reports on here to get an idea of the way the world really works. Life isn't black and white, and as you get a little older you'll realise we all will go through things that will tarnish our 100% records at getting things right in life.

Many guys here have been on a WMVM and will have either been honest or not entirely about meeting other women. Men have succeeded and failed taking both routes; whats important is your ability to deal with different situations and build relationships with people. Your idea about women having options and being of high-value are out of kilter. You posted a photo of a model who had added you as a friend on Facebook or Twitter something the other. Because she was a model and had a specific number of followers, this somehow bumped her up in your estimation. You can't assign an accurate 'value' to a woman unless you're using the right criteria, or looking for the right qualities in a woman, which I don't feel that you are.

I never went to spain to find a girlfriend. I went purely to kick back and enjoy myself with my brother. We did get the odd 30-35 year old old irish/scottish women looking for some young meat though.

There are a few guys on here that are not looking to get married, have a LTR , yes, i am one of those guys. Now they may say that they just didn't find the one yet, they just realise that this search is very volatile. Have you been in a relationship that lasted over a year? Now imagine being married to someone you hardly know, quickest way for a divorce, and i know because i have talked to guys that got divorced. Even when you do get married, the divorce rates according to Veterans on here is around 50%, how many of those marriages are actually happy? Be lucky if it is 10%. I know MsMoby was losing his business, not only did his wife leave him, but she actually tried to ruin him as well, she saw no use in the guy.

Now you are saying these single mums you met had great jobs, blah blah blah. No disrespect, but a good job in russia is a couple of hundred pounds each month, unless they are in Moscow, which rental prices will eat that up still. 0.2% of households in Russia are worth $1m+. Like it or not, they are looking for an escape.

I will break it down for you, imagine you met an awesome girl, you really liked her, you went on a date and opened up to her. Charmed her, then she tells you at the end , look i got a few other dates. what would you think of her? You got dumped by a single mum, and in your own words it was because you did that.

You talk about right criteria etc, what criteria is that? I did the right thing, i went for my russian ex, rather than the most beautiful girl available. She had a good household networth for russia, had a job, she wasn't desperate. But she did have needs, she wanted to go on holiday once a year, she wanted a big family, she liked to look beautiful and buy a few clothing once in a while. How would a guy living in russia earning £300 do that? do you know this saying?


“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.”


― Abraham Lincoln

Why do guys go searching in FSU? If these women honestly have it so great, why do they pick you instead their local FSU guy? Why would they subject themselves to a guy telling them that he is going to measure her up against other women, and he will take his pick?

It is because they are desperate, the ones you know are, they can take the shit because they need to, they have no other choice. If you gave them stability, they had a actual well paid job, they would behave a lot differently. Give her power and see her reaction, see how she treats you.

The women you meet may sound sweet, but they need to be sweet. Have you ever lived with a woman, and after 1 year her true colors start to emerge?

For me i want long term relationships, i can take the risk with bad women in russia, because if it doesn't work out what do i lose exactly? Nothing, i can have my fun, without being financially screwed.  It is not really a screwing contest for me, show me a lovely beautiful girl, and i would probably want to get married if i lived with her for a few years and got the impression she is actually genuine. My plans are to live in russia, and just date, have fun, have relationships, be in lust, maybe in time i will meet someone who i believe is genuine.

You may like to try out Armenia, or Georgia, the women there are pretty attractive. I am sure you could find a nice girl there, who has a higher chance to stick by you and raise a family with you. They are honestly very family orientated, some of the vets on here have recommended me to search there.

[lyndontom]

     

I will break it down for you, imagine you met an awesome girl, you really liked her, you went on a date and opened up to her. Charmed her, then she tells you at the end , look i got a few other dates. what would you think of her? You got dumped by a single mum, and in your own words it was because you did that.

You talk about right criteria etc, what criteria is that? I did the right thing, i went for my russian ex, rather than the most beautiful girl available. She had a good household networth for russia, had a job, she wasn't desperate. But she did have needs, she wanted to go on holiday once a year, she wanted a big family, she liked to look beautiful and buy a few clothing once in a while. How would a guy living in russia earning £300 do that? do you know this saying?

No need to break anything down for me. We have different opinions; I’m not a kid. Its something you might encounter as you grow up.

Is that £300 a month you’re quoting? Not everyone earns that. If your ex was the daughter of an Oligarch as I think you once claimed, she wouldn’t be dating men in that pool and she wouldn’t need you to provide a holiday like you say. So which is it, really? If all you have to bring to the table is being ‘young meat’ its not really any surprise that you consider everyone to be so materialistic.

Now you are saying these single mums you met had great jobs, blah blah blah. No disrespect, but a good job in russia is a couple of hundred pounds each month, unless they are in Moscow, which rental prices will eat that up still. 0.2% of households in Russia are worth $1m+. Like it or not, they are looking for an escape.

Obviously you’re talking about your ex here because she wanted a holiday a year. I don’t know if you couldn’t give her the lifestyle she wanted, maybe that’s why you’re not with her and you have a chip on your shoulder about it.
Again, I’ve met 2 ladies with children in 6 years visiting FSU. They were in Odessa, which is not exactly a cheap city compared to some places I’ve visited. Neither were the ladies ‘desperate’ or financially dependent. I think you need to spend some more time with boots on the ground before you can generalize so much. Go to South East Asia, Africa or places in South America and you’ll realize what desperation is and be able to put it into context.

It is because they are desperate, the ones you know are, they can take the shit because they need to, they have no other choice. If you gave them stability, they had a actual well paid job, they would behave a lot differently. Give her power and see her reaction, see how she treats you.

So your ex-girlfriend is the only one in FSU that is allowed to have a good income, job and not be desperate? You're deluded if you think only the positive aspects apply to you and nobody else and the negatives only apply to others. According to you, the hypothetical girl in question would have options, which in previous posts you said meant she has high value. You can’t have your cake and eat in with your arguments. You have a habit of camouflaging facts to suit you and promote your image; basically any lady associated with you is edit and anybody else can't compete. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the reality is much different. No disrespect, but can you attract good women in the UK? Cougars in Spain don't count, been there, done that.

For me i want long term relationships, i can take the risk with bad women in russia, because if it doesn't work out what do i lose exactly? Nothing, i can have my fun, without being financially screwed.  It is not really a screwing contest for me, show me a lovely beautiful girl, and i would probably want to get married if i lived with her for a few years and got the impression she is actually genuine. My plans are to live in russia, and just date, have fun, have relationships, be in lust, maybe in time i will meet someone who i believe is genuine.

So basically, you're a serial monogamist? Why would a woman with any self-worth get involved with you when she knows you're not prepared, at least some way down the line, to make a commitment to her on the basis you'll likely eventually bump her for an upgraded version? You don’t want to put your money at risk for her, because she’s not worth the gamble or you don’t trust her? What woman of self-respect would wish to be serious with you other than a fling?

     
You seem to dote on your ex. Is that why you don’t want to look for something serious, so you don’t have to rule out the fact she’ll take you back? You’re too insecure to be alone (and would explain why you had an obsession with finding virgins and need the help of pick up artists) yet you’re always wondering if something better might come along? No disrespect, that’s just how it comes across.
I'm not attacking you; you just have a rather skewed and narrow outlook on certain things but that may change in time. No point for us to go back and forth discrediting each other, we can do that all day and I'd prefer we do it over PM so not to disrupt the forum.
 

[dragonkid]

   

It is morty who said he is dating an oligarch's daughter.  You talk down about game in other threads, yet you pay to get hooked up with single mums in fsu. This is my game when i am in a bar

"hello my name is ...... what is your name?"

I don't believe in gimmicks or what not. About me dating women here, yes i have dated women here, i had an ex that was Bulgarian, i googled something, found fdating, and thought to myself it looks fun.

i get the impression you are a guy that lacks the skill to actually hook up with women. You are close to my age and done this for 6 years, i wouldn't be surprised if your first gf was in the fsu.

[Boethius]

i get the impression you are a guy that lacks the skill to actually hook up with women. You are close to my age and done this for 6 years, i wouldn't be surprised if your first gf was in the fsu.

You can't know that.  For all you know, he is dating locally. 

[dragonkid]

You can't know that.  For all you know, he is dating locally.

When a guy insults game (Just basic introduction), travels to fsu to pay for introductions to date single mums in a span of 6 years and he is around my age. I don't know, something is just off, it sounds like he tried this search out when he was a few years younger than myself.

[Boethius]

All this "game" stuff is cr@p which plays on the insecurities of men. 

[dragonkid]

All this "game" stuff is cr@p which plays on the insecurities of men.

If it gives confidence to a guy to go and talk to a woman, it is much better than relying on online dating. It helped me get over first introductions, after that you just listen, and make the girl smile, not rocket science.

Definition of game differs, some think it is having a pile of books, for me it is just having the balls to talk to the women you find attractive.

[Boethius]

Your fear is just fear of rejection.  Get over that fear, and you don't need any of that stuff.  Yes, sometimes you will fail, but you just have to move on.


My husband had an acquaintance who would approach 100 girls a day in Kyiv, asking if the girl wanted to go to his apartment to drink champagne and have sex.  (The pick up lines were humorous, I'm just distilling it to their real essence).  Obviously, almost all the girls said no, but every single day, one girl would agree, because he was playing the numbers.

[lyndontom]

When a guy insults game (Just basic introduction), travels to fsu to pay for introductions to date single mums in a span of 6 years and he is around my age. I don't know, something is just off, it sounds like he tried this search out when he was a few years younger than myself.

LOL...again, you only show what a plonker you really are. I may have travelled to FSU for 6 years (some of it work-related) but I've only really been active in a search since October 2015.  I met 2 ladies with children out of about 30, you have a habit of hanging onto irrelevant information to twist it in your favour. Boethius is right, I've been busy here in UK. You've met 1 Bulgarian lady in all your life in UK? I have to chuckle...your views on Brexit in another post were ill-informed and utterly unintelligent, sorry. I can't really lend any credibility to anything you post.

If it gives confidence to a guy to go and talk to a woman, it is much better than relying on online dating. It helped me get over first introductions, after that you just listen, and make the girl smile, not rocket science. Definition of game differs, some think it is having a pile of books, for me it is just having the balls to talk to the women you find attractive.

Apologies I haven't responded sooner; I've been out living life and travelling....unlike a guy here who writes a lot but never goes anywhere and says FSU are good for sex only. I don't really need to add any more, I see there have been a few new threads that I haven't read yet where people have exposed you for what you really are, kid.

DK relies on pick-up artists because he does not have the social skills to deal with people in reality, with any great confidence or assertiveness. Thats what happens when a young lad is replying on the silver spoon provided by mum and dad and he is a university drop-out doing some part-time teaching for a living.

[BorisS]

LAMan...we were talking about late August, so yes, Odessa and Black Sea would be a great option, I think.  The way I figure it - if she's truly interested in ME, then she will almost certainly consider Odessa or similar (since location really shouldn't matter at this point).  If not, then I know where things really stand.

Trenchcoat - I really appreciate the words. Just knowing that you guys understand and are so helpful means everything to me.


Boethius - yes, LAMAN thought Odessa was a good option, too.  And I would happily pay the expenses.  And a 2 or 3-bedroom apartment seems like a great idea. ANOTHER great idea - not making it too long, just in case things don't work out.  On that topic, how do you balance that kind of thing by not making a visit too short or too long?  Too short and things are going great - not good.  Vice-versa - not good, either.

Andy

When Tanya and I first met we decided on Odessa because it was a short trip for her (Kherson). I rented a big apartment  for a reasonable rate. It took the pressure off completely. She at first offered for me to stay at her apartment but I told her it would put more pressure than necessary. Also, I told her it could be possible, however slight, that I may not be the charming man she knew from Skype :-)It let things progress naturally between us.

[Slumba]

Many people don't differentiate between "red pill", "MRA / men's rights advocates", "MGTOW" and "PUA" along with "HBD" and other sub-genres. Thus they can easily find stuff to offend them between all these different writers and viewpoints.

However, understanding how women think (they often think differently than men) and learning how to talk to almost anyone, is a useful skill to have.  And some "PUA" types do teach valid methods for learning how to do this.

[BorisS]

Yup.  I did a day trip from Odessa to meet someone that I'd talked to on the phone quite a lot, and was happy to leave at the end of the day.  Nothing wrong with the people, but the city was definitely the most depressing I've visited in the FSU.

I have to agree. I've been through Nikolaev several times and it does give off that vibe. Does it have anything to do with it being a closed city for so long? Go just a few kilometers up the road to Kherson and things seemed much different to me. Maybe it was just my perception.

[Anotherkiwi]

I have to agree. I've been through Nikolaev several times and it does give off that vibe. Does it have anything to do with it being a closed city for so long? Go just a few kilometers up the road to Kherson and things seemed much different to me. Maybe it was just my perception.

I was beginning to think that it was just me, or that everyone else was too polite to comment!  Didn't get to Kherson - maybe next time (if there is a next time).