More Bad News for Russia

[JayH]

More information is coming to light all the time !


Mafia links of Putin’s party laid bare

President Putin’s United Russia party represents the interests of organised crime, from the lowest rungs of local government to the highest echelons of power, according to an opposition report.

The 65-page report, entitled The Party of Criminal Russia, was written by Ilya Yashin, a former ally of Boris Nemtsov, the Kremlin critic shot dead near Red Square last year. Mr Yashin said that he hoped his report would result in United Russia losing votes in parliamentary elections next month.

Although compiled from open sources, the report provides one of the most comprehensive pictures of criminality within the party since its…

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mafia-links-of-putin-s-party-laid-bare-m9q359svd

[JayH]

Some in Russia can see reality-- and are not afraid to speak out . It needs about another 10 million to start talking!



Every citizen of Russia will incur responsibility for Crimea
Russian opposition journalist Alexander Sotnik believes that every citizen of Russia will have to be responsible for the annexation of Crimea and the war in Donbass.

“Crimea is annexed by Russia, and the Kremlin commits one crime after another in Donbass. No matter how this war is called “hybrid” or else, this is a war, and the death is not “hybrid”. Wars always lead into grief, casualties, deprivation… And Russia will incur responsibility for those suffering, too, either with Putin alive in the Hague or dead, it doesn’t matter. The responsibility will be incurred by everyone, by every citizen of Russia, including me,” he said in an interview with the Detector Media publishing.

The journalist believes that “terrible times will wait for” Russians in the future. “Everything has its cost in this life. The Putin’s regime has committed so many crimes both in Russia and outside the country that the payback would be terrible. Perhaps, the disintegration of Russia will be the price. As for me, I certainly hate this idea, but each new day of Vladimir Putin’s and his gang’s power leaves less chance of saving my country within the old geopolitical boundaries,” said Sotnik.

http://en.sobytiya.info/journalist-every-citizen-of-russia-will-incur-responsibility-for-crimea.html

[JayH]

Maybe the world is now awakening to menace Russia is to the rest of the world under Putin and his corrupt regime that has created a pariah state.
Pariahs are not asked to cooperate on challenges to the global commons. They shouldn’t get to host events like the World Cup, as Russia is scheduled to do in 2018. They should not be diplomatic partners in U.S. policy to disarm other pariahs like Iran. No, pariahs should be quarantined. With Russia, it’s the very least the U.S. and its allies can do to save the international system from a country that seeks to destroy it.


Treat Russia Like the International Poison It Is



Michael McFaul, who served as President Barack Obama’s ambassador to Russia and was the architect of the first-term policy to “reset” relations with Russia, told me the U.S. had hoped to “moderate” Russia’s negative behavior “by making them stakeholders in these international institutions.” McFaul said he believed that in the 1990s and 2000s that this was the right policy. But he said it’s time for a new approach: “Russia under Putin today is not interested in being a stakeholder or responsible member in many of these international institutions. Rather, they seek to weaken them or in the case of NATO to undermine them completely.”

Evelyn Farkas, a former deputy assistant secretary of defense under Obama who focused on Russia and Eurasia, told me this week that part of the problem is that the U.S. and its Western allies have not punished Russia for its violation of international norms and rules. “When we don’t enforce the rules of the international community, then the international community and the institutions will fail to make responsible actors out of countries like Russia,” she said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-10-13/treat-russia-like-the-international-poison-it-is

[JayH]

 Now that the US Presidential election has been decided  perhaps it is time to consider what the impact will be on the FSU   -- a topic that is related to the forum !!

Despite my earlier misgivings about Trump it seems that somewhere along the way he has changed direction on a few topics -perhaps he has actually listened to advice? Certainly the Republicans in general have been in favour of doing more to assist Ukraine -- maybe now we will see some action.

The Kremlin panic! Trump: strengthen sanctions against Russia, and  isolate as  North Korea

"we will expand the sanctions against Russia and Russian oil companies, will strengthen the impact on the banking sector and isolate it as North Korea, "- said Trump

Источник: http://www.amn.com.ua/svit/v-kremle-panyka-tramp-usylym-sanktsyy-protyv-rf-y-yzolyruem-kak-severnuyu-koreyu/

[JayH]

Story about the process where some earlier comments and ideas of Trump were "realigned" !

Trump has personally promised to be a friend for Ukraine

According to him, the former Permanent Representative of Ukraine to the UN Yuriy Sergeyev Trump personally promised to be a friend for Ukraine. "Now Trump statements in which he allegedly was going to recognize the Crimea" Russian. " After them, we went directly to the Republican. Our people had a meeting with him, talked about the Ukraine, brought him national souvenirs. It was four months before the election. At a meeting with our delegation Republican said he is a friend of Ukraine. Our diplomat Sergeyev Trump himself said he would be for Ukraine ", - stressed Malomuzh.

Источник: http://www.amn.com.ua/blogy/tramp-lychno-poobeshhal-byt-drugom-dlya-ukrayny/

[BillyB]

Despite my earlier misgivings about Trump it seems that somewhere along the way he has changed direction on a few topics -perhaps he has actually listened to advice? Certainly the Republicans in general have been in favour of doing more to assist Ukraine -- maybe now we will see some action.

Trump has been receiving intelligence briefings for a few months now. He has faith in our intelligence community to believe Russia's recent actions are harmful to our nation. He knows now Putin is not on board with his "Make America Great Again" program.

[Bounder]

Trump has been receiving intelligence briefings for a few months now. He has faith in our intelligence community to believe Russia's recent actions are harmful to our nation. He knows now Putin is not on board with his "Make America Great Again" program.

I'm sure Trump is in contact with and has respect for the intelligence community.  But JayH is providing links from Ukrainian media sources which are reliably unreliable.

Instead of the US vs them silliness, which you are translating as "He knows now Putin is not on board", the question that should seriously be asked is how and where can Russia and US cooperate more and how can they learn to be less hostile towards each other.  Putin is not on board or off board; he and the Russian people are waiting to see if he has a partner to work with rather than just another who demonizes Russia no matter what, typically for domestic gains and to the great disservice of global peace and stability at large.

[JayH]

I'm sure Trump is in contact with and has respect for the intelligence community.  But JayH is providing links from Ukrainian media sources which are reliably unreliable.

Oh-- so quoting Trump is unreliable?
In the past Trump's off the cuff comments have rambled and often seemed contradictory  -- but  -- a clearer theme has emerged.
Fact is  right now  if he takes all the advice he will be given ,  Ukraine will get the help it needs.Trump will not be a limp wristed President.Obama was lame on issues where US could be accused of being an aggressor--  that will not worry Trump.
The door is open for Russia to rejoin  the world and be a good world citizen -- it is simple enough -- get out of Ukraine.Fact is it does not suit Putin's agenda to be at peace with the world.

Read the words-- Trump's words !


Now I'm all for Ukraine - Trump

 "US presidential candidate from the Republican Party, Donald Trump explained his attitude to the situation with Ukraine.

The new head of the United States billionaire Donald Trump unveiled a number of statements on the situation in Ukraine. Shared his thoughts in an interview with billionaire of The the New York the Times , reports "STS-1492.news".

"When he, Putin, came and seized the Crimea, he ripped the heart and soul, because there was all the money I was surprised I've heard that most of the revenue comes just from this region This -... The territory of the wealth, which means that the rest of Ukraine will be defeated, and that is how you can predict will happen very soon ... Look what they are doing in Ukraine, and you will realize that it is - a matter of time ", - said Trump.

Trump calls on European countries to continue support for Ukraine: "I do not like what is happening in Ukraine, but Europe, this problem affects more than us and it should take a leading role I have a feeling that people from different parts of Europe need to... together to help Ukraine. I think that Ukraine receives a decent respect from other parts of Europe. But Ukraine deserves this respect, it is a long time proves it. So, of Germany it is or about other countries, I do not think you get support that need. "

"We are fighting for Ukraine, but no one is fighting for Ukraine, but Ukraine itself, of course, and I say that it does not seem fair, and it does not seem logical," - concluded his speech by Trump."
http://ru.1492news.com/news/37074_1478761690

[BillyB]

I'm sure Trump is in contact with and has respect for the intelligence community.  But JayH is providing links from Ukrainian media sources which are reliably unreliable.

I don't read any Ukrainian news. I even tell my Ukrainian wife those news sources are bias and unreliable. I read other news. Trump's friend, Newt Gingrich, said the US would sell weapons to Ukraine if Trump becomes president. Trump, in a past interview, said Russia isn't going to go into Ukraine anymore if he's elected president. Congress has already approved lethal weapon sales to Ukraine but Obama failed to act. All Trump has to do is act since funds are approved. Trump also has an ad that says he will be tough on the bad guys and lumps Putin and ISIS together.

Instead of the US vs them silliness, which you are translating as "He knows now Putin is not on board", the question that should seriously be asked is how and where can Russia and US cooperate more and how can they learn to be less hostile towards each other.  Putin is not on board or off board; he and the Russian people are waiting to see if he has a partner to work with rather than just another who demonizes Russia no matter what, typically for domestic gains and to the great disservice of global peace and stability at large.

I don't know if you've been sleeping the past few years but my eyes were open. Putin invaded a nation to take their land. He continues to destabilize Ukraine so 40 million people can't improve their quality of life. He's bombing civilians to keep a dictator in Syria in power. Putin uses ceasefires over and over in Ukraine and Syria to get us to pause so he can advance. He's deceived us numerous times and you think we can work with him towards peace and global stability? How many times does a person have to lie to you before you understand they can't be trusted? Face it. Some people only cooperate when they stare down the barrel of a gun. Putin uses this method on those he wants to bully but he too can be bullied. Trump may try to act nice with Russia to give them a chance to be part of a peace loving international community but after the first betrayal, I don't think Trump will be the pussy Obama was.

[JayH]

To highlight the ignorance of Bounder comment  above-

Some quotes from Trump manifesto in relation to Ukraine and Russia

The text of the election platform of the party referred to Russia mainly in a negative way, in the context of the various threats facing the United States. The word "Russia" occurs ten times.
"Despite its promises, Russia and China consider kiberoperatsiyi as part of its military doctrine even in peacetime. In response, we have to take measures in the diplomatic, financial and legal areas not involved in issuing visas of persons to freeze their assets, to start an investigation against them "- the document says.

The section on human rights, said that the welfare of the United States in particular will depend on the development of an independent judiciary and civil society in countries where the government has resorted to repression, such as China, Russia and many countries in the Middle East and Africa. "
"Together with allies support the preservation and, if necessary, strengthening of sanctions against Russia for as long as the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine will not be fully restored," - the document says.

"The hostility of Russia we will respond with the same determination that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. We do not accept changing of power in Eastern Europe, Ukraine, Georgia or elsewhere, and will do all possible measures constitution to bring to justice all the perpetrators of aggression and assassinations ", - emphasized in the text of the platform.

The program also calls for Republicans to keep sanctions on Russia and Ukraine to continue to provide assistance.
"We also support adequate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and better coordination with NATO (on) defense planning" - the document says.

[Bounder]

Oh-- so quoting Trump is unreliable?
In the past Trump's off the cuff comments have rambled and often seemed contradictory  -- but  -- a clearer theme has emerged.
Fact is  right now  if he takes all the advice he will be given ,  Ukraine will get the help it needs.Trump will not be a limp wristed President.Obama was lame on issues where US could be accused of being an aggressor--  that will not worry Trump.
The door is open for Russia to rejoin  the world and be a good world citizen -- it is simple enough -- get out of Ukraine.Fact is it does not suit Putin's agenda to be at peace with the world.

Read the words-- Trump's words !


Now I'm all for Ukraine - Trump

 "US presidential candidate from the Republican Party, Donald Trump explained his attitude to the situation with Ukraine.

The new head of the United States billionaire Donald Trump unveiled a number of statements on the situation in Ukraine. Shared his thoughts in an interview with billionaire of The the New York the Times , reports "STS-1492.news".

"When he, Putin, came and seized the Crimea, he ripped the heart and soul, because there was all the money I was surprised I've heard that most of the revenue comes just from this region This -... The territory of the wealth, which means that the rest of Ukraine will be defeated, and that is how you can predict will happen very soon ... Look what they are doing in Ukraine, and you will realize that it is - a matter of time ", - said Trump.

Trump calls on European countries to continue support for Ukraine: "I do not like what is happening in Ukraine, but Europe, this problem affects more than us and it should take a leading role I have a feeling that people from different parts of Europe need to... together to help Ukraine. I think that Ukraine receives a decent respect from other parts of Europe. But Ukraine deserves this respect, it is a long time proves it. So, of Germany it is or about other countries, I do not think you get support that need. "

"We are fighting for Ukraine, but no one is fighting for Ukraine, but Ukraine itself, of course, and I say that it does not seem fair, and it does not seem logical," - concluded his speech by Trump."
http://ru.1492news.com/news/37074_1478761690

Jay, with all due respect, do you have any better sources?  STS-1492news quoting "The the New York the Times"??? Huh?  I haven't looked to see if the NYT is actually reporting this, I'm putting in as much effort as you.  To the reported speech itself, it reminds me of reporting in Indian and other newspapers: "So, of Germany it is or about other countries, I do not think you get support that need."  What does it even mean? 

Look, Jay, I stand to be corrected and if Trump has come out pro-Ukraine, then so be it.  I don't think he's such a fool as to join the wrong side though.  If he is backing Ukraine, you DO understand that he is using them as a pawn, right?  Because, what else is Ukraine other than a pawn?

[JayH]

  Because, what else is Ukraine other than a pawn?

Your condacending arrogance is disgusting.

Ukraine is a country -- an independent country  of 45 million people  who want to be free of Russia and all the negatives that go with it.
Ukrainian lives have been sacrificed in the quest for freedom and a chance to live. Ideas that the free world has promoted and sort to protect.
Right now Ukraine is the frontline for the rest of the world against Russian aggression and hostility-- AND POTENTIAL EXPANSION through what was much of the SOVIET UNION.

I am not going to revisit every issue that has become clear enough for every cretin that comes along with a head full of ignorance  and inane ideas. Go read the track on the forum of abundant threads where time after time Russian bs and propaganda has been eventually clearly discredited-- in the process you might learn something.

[Bounder]

I don't read any Ukrainian news. I even tell my Ukrainian wife those news sources are bias and unreliable. I read other news. Trump's friend, Newt Gingrich, said the US would sell weapons to Ukraine if Trump becomes president. Trump, in a past interview, said Russia isn't going to go into Ukraine anymore if he's elected president. Congress has already approved lethal weapon sales to Ukraine but Obama failed to act. All Trump has to do is act since funds are approved. Trump also has an ad that says he will be tough on the bad guys and lumps Putin and ISIS together.

I don't if you've been sleeping the past few years but my eyes were open.

No, definitely not sleeping, but we may have different points of view.

Putin invaded a nation to take their land. He continues to destabilize Ukraine so 40 million people can't improve their quality of life.

He did take Crimea back home, that's true.  As to the rest, I would say the jury is out on that.  Probably he emboldened goons in Eastern Ukraine, but I wouldn't go any further in assessing that, although I know many of you do and will do more now.....

He's bombing civilians to keep a dictator in Syria in power.

Here is some patent nonsense.  I don't know that anyone says Assad is a good guy.  I won't because he's not.  Most people would also agree that Ghaddafi and Saddam were bad guys.  Well, you fellows knocked out Ghaddafi and Saddam and what do we now have in Libya and Iraq?  Chaos.  Most people prefer anything to utter chaos.  Russia is right, and morally right I might add, to uphold the ONLY recognized government in Syria.  If Assad's regime is destabilized to the point of crumbling, it will be another Libya/Iraq, with the added bonus of spilling over into Israel and Lebanon.  Please spare me Hillary's pleas to bring down the dictator.  Let's get serious!

He's deceived us numerous times and you think we can work with him towards peace and global stability?

You, as in U.S.A., has deceived nonstop since forever, including the Russians.  For fucks sake, just see if there's an olive branch to be grasped.  It's all lies on all sides.  How does peace begin????

How many times does a person have to lie to you before you understand they can't be trusted? Face it.

I like a lot of the stuff you post in here Billy and I would prefer not to make it personal.  I am not stupid and neither are you.  And we are both lied to nonstop thousands of times per day.  And eventually we start believing a few.  We are all guilty on that front if we are human.  We do have different opinions, however, on this particular issue, and I am prepared to respect yours and even learn from it.

To be honest, I think Ukraine has had a good go at it, being a country that is.  I mean, it has been given 25 years and look where they are.  A deeply corrupted entity that is not in the West and now is not in the East either.  Good luck to it! 

To be perfectly honest, for Ukrainians in Ukraine today, the sooner they quit fighting with Russia, the sooner life will get better.  EU dreams are way way off, if ever, in my opinion. 

As long as the words NATO are whispered on Russia's doorstep, life is going to be hell for Ukrainians, so go talk to your government about that if you really care for Ukraine and it's people.

Just my two cents and I don't want wars with any of you.  There's plenty enough of those here and everywhere.

[Bounder]

Your condacending arrogance is disgusting.

Ukraine is a country -- an independent country  of 45 million people  who want to be free of Russia and all the negatives that go with it.
Ukrainian lives have been sacrificed in the quest for freedom and a chance to live. Ideas that the free world has promoted and sort to protect.
Right now Ukraine is the frontline for the rest of the world against Russian aggression and hostility-- AND POTENTIAL EXPANSION through what was much of the SOVIET UNION.

I am not going to revisit every issue that has become clear enough for every cretin that comes along with a head full of ignorance  and inane ideas. Go read the track on the forum of abundant threads where time after time Russian bs and propaganda has been eventually clearly discredited-- in the process you might learn something.

Sorry, no condescending arrogance.  Ukraine is one of the frontline's in the United States' never-ending warfare needed to keep the military industrial complex in business.  The US is always going after Russia, and Russia has no love for yankees either.  Ukraine IS a Pawn.  The US and Russia both see Ukraine as a Pawn and so does the EU.  Think of a chessboard.  My comment was not meant to be condescending.

[BillyB]

He did take Crimea back home, that's true.

At the moment Putin took Crimea, it was legally Ukraine's

Probably he emboldened goons in Eastern Ukraine, but I wouldn't go any further in assessing that, although I know many of you do and will do more now.....

Putin denied he had troops in Crimea until after he took it. He has troops in Eastern Ukraine too.

Russia is right, and morally right I might add, to uphold the ONLY recognized government in Syria.

Russia is morally right to support the government in Syria while trying to topple the current government in Ukraine? Assad isn't well liked in Syria and was about to be toppled before Russia came to the rescue. Syrian citizens have the right not to recognize their government as legit.

To be honest, I think Ukraine has had a good go at it, being a country that is.  I mean, it has been given 25 years and look where they are.

Poland and Ukraine are similar sized in similar locations with similar populations. In 25 years Poland is doing well aligning with Europe and the average citizen there makes more than the average Russian in Russia. Ukraine remained under Russia's foot and make 3 times less while under their influence. Yes, look at where they are at and who kept them there. Park Canada next to Russia for 25 years and Ukraine next to America. Do you really believe Ukraine would be in the same situation they are in now and Canada prosperous and free? Don't blame the corrupt leadership of Ukraine on the people. Blame it on the Russian guy pulling the puppet strings.

the sooner they quit fighting with Russia, the sooner life will get better

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union they haven't fought Russia, remained a cooperative puppet and life never improved. So Ukraine looked elsewhere and Russia has brought the fight to them like an abusive man who's woman just left him and he wants his ring and gifts(Crimea) back. Ukrainian people wanted change. Wouldn't you if you had their standard of living?

As long as the words NATO are whispered on Russia's doorstep, life is going to be hell for Ukrainians

So it's NATO's fault for little guys around the world getting beat up when seeking security and improving prosperity for their nations? Most nations around the world don't seek Russia's troops to be stationed in their nation. It didn't work out well for Ukraine. When people seek a better life, their top choices don't include Russia. When refugees flee from war, they don't run to Russia to build a new life and better life for their kids. Most people in the world know which countries are people friendly.

Russia should compete with America in a different way to gain respect from their neighbors. Russia should do what America does or better for its neighbors and partners but they chose to use guns to keep their them from moving on to bigger and better things.

[jone]

This is all so silly.  Russia was being offered partnership in the various economic AND military circles until five years ago.  There were books written about it.  Putin's first term was a congenial effort by all international parties.  But the idea that Russia was one of many did not sit well with the ruling kleptocracy.  The decsisions that Russia (insert Putin) has made leading up to the Ukrainian conflict highlight the disparate paths of Russia and Europe.   

Russia is now the odd man out because of its actions.  If you have a bully in the neighborhood, no one wants to play with him.  Similarly, Russia has lost many of its lucrative relationships because of its behavior.  And Europe and the US are working very hard to marginalize Russia's oil sales because Europe feels that the spigot can be turned off as a means of political pressure. 

No, Russia has been a bully and bullies are not tolerated forever.  Eventually there is push back. 

One of the things Russia will find about Trump, is that if Russian planes play fly overs and fake assaults on US territory and vessels is that they will be shot out of the sky. 

[msmob]

Some in Russia can see reality-- and are not afraid to speak out . It needs about another 10 million to start talking!

It will need a lot more than 10 million ..more like 75 million plus - ..

I see no sign of even a noisy minority of Russians realising their leadership has misled them.....

[krimster2]

“One of the things Russia will find about Trump, is that if Russian planes play fly overs and fake assaults on US territory and vessels is that they will be shot out of the sky.  “

Jone,
noooooo, US banks and oil/gas companies will force Trump to drop sanctions on Russia, Russia will stop flyovers and other provocations, Putin will then tell Russian people, “see being tough guy works!”  Next a secret protocol will be made to divide up Ukraine, IMF will stop supporting Ukraine, Russian military openly intervenes in Novo Russiya, shattering Ukraine's military which leads to a political/social collapse in Kyiv, Putin will be praised by Trump for ending the war and restoring order.  Ivanka Trump will marry one of the sons of a leading Russian oligarch....

[calmissile]

“One of the things Russia will find about Trump, is that if Russian planes play fly overs and fake assaults on US territory and vessels is that they will be shot out of the sky.  “

Jone,
noooooo, US banks and oil/gas companies will force Trump to drop sanctions on Russia, Russia will stop flyovers and other provocations, Putin will then tell Russian people, “see being tough guy works!”  Next a secret protocol will be made to divide up Ukraine, IMF will stop supporting Ukraine, Russian military openly intervenes in Novo Russiya, shattering Ukraine's military which leads to a political/social collapse in Kyiv, Putin will be praised by Trump for ending the war and restoring order.  Ivanka Trump will marry one of the sons of a leading Russian oligarch....

WTF are you smoking today?   

[krimster2]

I wish...

[jone]

Calmissile, this is a week for fun.  He's just having a little fun at my expense.  LOL.

[AkMike]

Trump's friend, Newt Gingrich, said the US would sell weapons to Ukraine if Trump becomes president.

[

 That should have read [/size][/font][/size]lethal weapons[size=78%][/size][size=78%]. The US has already sold/ given radar systems and  Hummers as well as western  (Nato) style training. obammy has refused to allow any lethal weapons to come  from the US.

[Bounder]

At the moment Putin took Crimea, it was legally Ukraine's

Putin denied he had troops in Crimea until after he took it. He has troops in Eastern Ukraine too.

Russia is morally right to support the government in Syria while trying to topple the current government in Ukraine? Assad isn't well liked in Syria and was about to be toppled before Russia came to the rescue. Syrian citizens have the right not to recognize their government as legit.

Yes, Russia is morally right to put an end to a war that has cost so many lives and has lead to massive refugee outflow, on a scale not seen for a long while.  I don't know if you've been to Syria or anywhere close, so I don't know on what grounds you say he is "not well-liked".  While the small minority of politically-motivated folks got tired of Assad's oppression and decided to stand up against it, most people were just going about their lives (see current American politics).  Not long after, Syria was awash in jihadist extremists created by your country, and you can kiss any idea of "freedom" and "democracy" as already long long gone.  It was never there to begin with since not all the world understands or appreciates the value of these Western concepts and I would include Syria here.  Now, the only option is to bring peace to Syria and let them get on with their future with a recognized, stable government, or keep making the same mistake all over again ala Iraq and Libya.  Without Assad there is going to be chaos at the present time.  I would be happy to see a different outcome and so would Russia.  That is good for Syrians.  Sorry, but that's how it is.

As to toppling the government in Ukraine, you are confusing me.  The Maidan protesters ran the democratically elected government out of town with American backing.  Do you think Russia gets excited when the Americans practice regime change on their doorstep?  They sure do!

Poland and Ukraine are similar sized in similar locations with similar populations. In 25 years Poland is doing well aligning with Europe and the average citizen there makes more than the average Russian in Russia. Ukraine remained under Russia's foot and make 3 times less while under their influence. Yes, look at where they are at and who kept them there. Park Canada next to Russia for 25 years and Ukraine next to America. Do you really believe Ukraine would be in the same situation they are in now and Canada prosperous and free? Don't blame the corrupt leadership of Ukraine on the people. Blame it on the Russian guy pulling the puppet strings.

In my view, Ukrainians have the government they deserve.  And blaming your own government on an outside force is the very definition of dependency.  The Ukrainians haven't been able to do anything for themselves.  They don't even have the same level of prosperity or stability as Belarus or Russia.  For me that proves the point.  The Ukrainians have shown they are incapable of running a country.  The Poles are a different breed altogether, it's not apples and apples.

Without going into it, an interesting historical fact is that Poles have always been Westward looking, whereas the Ukrainians have always been Eastward looking.  Now Ukraine tried to move west and therein lies their problem.  When they get around to accepting their place in this world it is going to go better for them.  Ukraine is simply confused.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union they haven't fought Russia, remained a cooperative puppet and life never improved. So Ukraine looked elsewhere and Russia has brought the fight to them like an abusive man who's woman just left him and he wants his ring and gifts(Crimea) back. Ukrainian people wanted change. Wouldn't you if you had their standard of living?

No, Ukraine never bothered to accept reality and get on with life.  Why is Ukraine behind Russia and Belarus?  Because of Ukraine, they have no one to blame but themselves.  Russia got involved when the Americans decided they would meddle in Ukraine.  It's as simple as that.  And taking Crimea back was meant as a message to the US. 

So it's NATO's fault for little guys around the world getting beat up when seeking security and improving prosperity for their nations? Most nations around the world don't seek Russia's troops to be stationed in their nation. It didn't work out well for Ukraine. When people seek a better life, their top choices don't include Russia. When refugees flee from war, they don't run to Russia to build a new life and better life for their kids. Most people in the world know which countries are people friendly.

NATO has only ill intentions for Russia.  Ukraine could get security and increase prosperity, by getting on with reality. 

Actually, there are lots of refugees in Russia from Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, North Korea, and elsewhere.  Yes, Russia provides a better life for those people, including their kids. 

I honestly don't know what you mean by "people friendly".  Every country is made up of people so how any one could exist without being "people friendly", I seriously do not know.  Russia is not a gulag, wasteland, or whatever else you may think.  It is a normal country, where people live and get wealthier or poorer, happier or sadder, etc etc.  They even still enjoy the right to not get screamed at as "Murderer!" for wearing a fur coat.  Everyone in this planet is just trying to get by and make the best of life.  Russia is no different and it is easy for me to recognize how you come to this conversation with an idea of American superiority and assuredness that your ideas are right and are universally applicable.  Look how your "democracy" is working now.  Fix that and then talk about democracy and freedom in other countries that aren't asking for your advice.

Russia should compete with America in a different way to gain respect from their neighbors. Russia should do what America does or better for its neighbors and partners but they chose to use guns to keep their them from moving on to bigger and better things.

America should compete with Russia in a different way to gain Russia's confidence.  That would start at a minimum by ceasing to meddle on Russia's doorstep.  By the way, you guys have far more guns out and about in the world than Russia and you've done plenty to stop countries from moving on to bigger and better things.
[/quote]

[Hammer2722]

Bounder, you may want to educate yourself about Belarus. Their economy is much worse than Ukraine. Stability? I guess you can say that when the country is run by a dictator who arrests anyone who dares to run against him for president, LOL

[AkMike]

Bounder should educate himself on many matters of state that he knows little about. He's just reciting the Kremlin's news sites.