Trench's Questions and Philosophies

[Davo2]

Affairs are caused by many  reasons.... Iike you have suggested, one spouse feeling neglected and someone comes along at the right time and makes them feel special. They get all those magic feelings of a new relationship that their husband or wife can never give them again, once they have been together for a while. The affair couple enter what's commonly called an affair fog, where all there thoughts and effort are put into their affair partner and not their children or betrayed partner.

In my ex's case, her family has a many instances of mental illness. My ex involved her  niece  in two affairs and when it was all exposed, her niece committed  suicide. My ex has undiagnosed bipolar and refuses to get help. It was quite obvious from a young age and often with bipolar a sufferer has a propensity to be unfaithful.

Emotional affairs are real. Usually it's a stepping stone to a full blown affair, but sometimes the person snaps out of it before too much damage occurs. Many members of these sites post messages they have found on their loved ones phones and computers, often hidden.  They have not been intimate with  someone, but expressed love for, or sent sexually explicit messages between each other, it is more damaging than finding your partner having a meaningless one night stand. As they have basically given their heart to someone else.

The internet has made it far easier to cheat and have an affair. We even have adverts on TV encouraging affairs, such as Ashley Madison. I was a victim of that campaign, with my ex's last affair. 

You might say society is lacking the morals that once existed when many more were attending church. The thing that I found very surprising on these recovery sites is that many of the US members where regular church goers and countless times their partners were having affairs with other congregation members and even the odd occasion with the church elder or his wife.

There are lots of good reasons to divorce when you have kids, I'm a classic example. We got married far too young. I over looked many red flags that were even obvious to me in my teens. I'm pretty placid and she made almost every decision in out lives. I stayed with her far too long and in fact I was going to leave her when I was 22. I suspected her of having an affair with my mate, which turned out to be true. She admitted trapping me in the relationship after going off the pill and deliberately getting  pregnant. Spending 9 months being congratulated on a pregnancy that could be a result of your best mate, is absolutely demoralising. Luckily or unluckily for me my daughter is biologically mine. It takes a good seven hours to explain the true level of betrayal I went through in the condensed  form, I grantee you would have divorced, kids or no kids after the first 10 minutes.

My kids all have reasonable relationship with there mum, they all top their class at school, they all help around the house and the older ones started working at 14. They have a better appreciation for what it's like to be a family than what they did before and are far more skilled that most kids are with two parents regarding general life skills, but it did come at a cost of dealing with some very disturbing behaviour as the oldest 3 discovered their mother's affair before I did. Lastly they have the father they should have had from birth if I was in a caring mutually respectful  relationship.

One thing you tend to find with divorced people, especially at our age is honesty!!, as we all admit we have made mistakes and I'm one also. There's some things I aren't proud of. Those who can reflect on this have a good understanding of what's needed to have a successful relationship. Many divorced people stay and work on their marriages far longer than you would ever have the mental  stamina to with stand. Try surviving 10+ incidents of infidelity, it's likely one would destroy you and you would break your promise.

On Divorced women, they come with an instruction manual on how to make them happy and all it takes is to listen regarding their reasons for the failure of their marriage and their feelings. Trench, don't ever overlook a divorced woman, in my experience they are often much more tolerant, will communicate there issues in a far superior way, appreciate a good man when they have come from a bad situation. They will over look petty issues like class, if you show them kindness and love, because that's more important to them.

On "K".... I wasnt her rebound, if anything she was mine. I met her after her being in several short  relationships, with men who would be viewed as a higher social class than me. Her divorce took a long time to initiate as she was hopeful she could reconcile with her  husband, but eventually he got his mistress pregnant also. She also had the issue of protecting her assets so she didn't want to rush into it.

What she got from me was a guy who could sympathise with her, a guy who wasn't career driven and was more family orientated and could provide a stable environment for her  child, as when I came along she hadn't seen her father for two years. What can you offer a woman who has everything???
 something she has never had, a man who views her as a person not someone who can is an easy way to climb the corporate ladder or status. We still have a great emotional connection, it wouldn't take much to resurrect our relationship and we have in the past talked about marriage, I was the man who both she and her family could see was right for her. A rebound doesn't get offered with welcome arms and set up financially. It was my situation that caused the issues ..... Wealth, success and perceived social class does not make you a good  husband, it's just that type of men who treated her badly.

Drugs not the best thing for someone to do, but I'd much rather be with someone who might do it in small amounts twice a year, than be with someone like my ex who went out every weekend and come home so drunk she couldn't walk or talk and would spend all Sunday in bed hungover..... Try surviving that for 20+ years without considering a  divorce!!

Australia is a little different to the US.... It's been said many times that we have no obvious class structure, at least in a social sense. It's not uncommon to see a millionaire talking to a garbage man at a pub or footy, both have equal respect for each other and will treat each other as mates. It's something that k's dad talked about also on several occasions. His mindset changed once he lived here.

I work for a multinational agricultural company and it's quite obvious in our work environment also. Our Australian division turns over 100+ million a year and our CEO is quite often found on the workshop floor in his overalls working along side guys on $20 an hour. After he will call in at the local pub for a beer with us. His attitude and nature would never give away his success.

There are many theories on this, but the predominantly accepted one is many of us come from a convict back ground and many of the rejects of British society eventually became far more wealthy and successful than the judges and high society that put them on the ships to Australia, due to agriculture and especially wool. This lead to a general feeling that no one is any more special than anyone else. Defiantly not our English over lords

Lastly regarding FSU woman ( again I have no real time experience) ... I had to supply my pay slips for her visa application (failed) and she thought I was on a high wage but in fact it's only slightly above average. I googled her current position in Australia and she would be on 20-30 k more than me. She was very surprised that a woman would earn more, but I explained at in middle to upper middle class society in Australia, it's often the wife who earns more than the husband and gave her examples of this with my friends who i'd talked about in the past. She found this idea quite liberating

Anyway I've dribble far too much shit today.

[msmob]

Sorry, I disagree with this.  Until you have lived with someone, day in, day out, for years,  you do not truly know that person.  Sometimes, even when you have lived together, you don't know the person.  You will also get a completely different understanding of your partner if you have children together.  You will see facets of your partner you have never seen before, probably both positive and negative.  Children cause a lot of stress on good parents, and on a marriage.

EXACTLY

[Bee Farmer]

You remind me of a RC Priest 'advising' folks on relationships

Then maybe there is some wisdom you refuse to accept.

WRONG .. it is entirely possible to marry someone who changes their behaviour and becomes 'unreasonable' ...  That is but one circumstance ...You just proved your 'expertise' to comment on such matters ... thanks ...

Core values don't change without some kind of serious spiritual or traumatic event.

Normally what happens, is that they did not change.  Their partner had simply never got to know them completely.

I'm posting from having worn the t-shirt and accepting my part in any failure ....   Hardly 'bollox'...

It's FAR more relevant and pertinent than your wacko 'theorising'

Indeed, I have vowed before God Almighty - and broken those wows...  not without a GREAT deal of careful thought and the happiness of my daughters - seeking council from the Church ..

Divorce is to some degree the relationship equivalent of financial bankruptcy.  Call it relationship bankruptcy if you will.
The absolute worst person to get financial advice from is someone who has went bankrupt.  They may know all the ins and outs of bankruptcy, but they are a failure at avoiding bankruptcy. (divorced)
The best person to get financial advice from is someone who has became wealthy through their hard work and wise choices. (happily married)
Someone who strives to become wealthy, and has never went bankrupt may not be able to give you financial advice as good as someone who is wealthy, but it is still head and shoulders better than someone who has went bankrupt. (never married)

Divorce is the refusal to accept responsibility for the commitment someone made.

Sorry, I disagree with this.  Until you have lived with someone, day in, day out, for years,  you do not truly know that person.   Sometimes, even when you have lived together, you don't know the person.  You will also get a completely different understanding of your partner if you have children together.  You will see facets of your partner you have never seen before, probably both positive and negative.  Children cause a lot of stress on good parents, and on a marriage. 

You may not know every nuance of the person, but you should know how they handle conflict resolution, their ability to work together or compromise, how they handle adversity, etc.  You should know their core value structure, and their life views.  If you don't know someone this well, then you don't know them well enough to marry them.

Only fools enter marriage with their eyes shut.  It is a very big decision, that should be entered after serious introspection.  It is the most important decision of your life, and should not be taken lightly. 
But once you choose to marry someone, you give a vow that you will stay together, no matter what.  You give a vow that you will place the well-being of your partner and children over your own selfish desires.  You honor your responsibility and commitment.

Marriage is sacred to some people.

Affairs are caused by many  reasons....

I disagree.  I believe affairs and divorces are caused by only one reason.  Selfishness.

When you marry, you agree to place what is best for your partner and children over your selfish desires.  You agree to make sacrifices.  You agree to work through problems.  It is win-win for everyone.
When someone begins to place their selfish desires over the family, the relationship breaks down, and it becomes a lose-lose situation.

You get what you give.  And when you stop giving...

There are lots of good reasons to divorce when you have kids, I'm a classic example. We got married far too young. I over looked many red flags that were even obvious to me in my teens.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Divorce is never good when you have kids.  It may be the lesser of two evils, but there is never a good reason for divorce.
And pursuing another relationship after divorce if you have kids...my goodness, the rate of child abuse is 8 times higher.  30% of those kids are abused.

I know people whose spouses have mental illnesses, and they remain together.  I know marriages that have survived infidelity.  Granted, it takes an enormous amount of work to repair the damage.  But for some people, it's easier to run from problems than to work to fix them.  But when they do that, they never learn how to fix problems.  They just keep running from the problems for the rest of their lives.

The proper solution is to learn how to avoid marriage with bad apples, and to have the strength to stand up for yourself.

[msmob]

Then maybe there is some wisdom you refuse to accept.

But you STILL remind me of someone even you would ignore -....

Core values don't change without some kind of serious spiritual or traumatic event.

You see ? ... You haven't lived such stuff -and it is clear ...  I judged that it was better to end a marriage than my kids endure my wife's unreasonable behaviour ...  I STILL value marriage, fidelity and think pre-nups are for those who shouldn't GET married 

Below is UTTER TWADDLE..It is SO clear you haven't worn the t-shirt and are commenting from the 'clueless corner' :

Divorce is to some degree the relationship equivalent of financial bankruptcy.  Call it relationship bankruptcy if you will.
The absolute worst person to get financial advice from is someone who has went bankrupt.  They may know all the ins and outs of bankruptcy, but they are a failure at avoiding bankruptcy. (divorced)
The best person to get financial advice from is someone who has became wealthy through their hard work and wise choices. (happily married)
Someone who strives to become wealthy, and has never went bankrupt may not be able to give you financial advice as good as someone who is wealthy, but it is still head and shoulders better than someone who has went bankrupt. (never married)

Your analogy SUCKS and your very own 'leader' enjoys the support of the GOP - despite his taking folks / banks and being a serial misogynist ... hmmm  So much for 'core values' in 'Merica ?

Divorce is the refusal to accept responsibility for the commitment someone made.

Divorce is not a process one undertakes lightly - indeed - on behalf of at least one partner - it suggests accepting responsibility to sort out a bad situation

You may not know every nuance of the person, but you should know how they handle conflict resolution, their ability to work together or compromise, how they handle adversity, etc.  You should know their core value structure, and their life views.  If you don't know someone this well, then you don't know them well enough to marry them.

Really, you simply cannot have had LTRs - as many of us KEEP pointing out that you can live with someone decades and they can change to the point living together becomes impossible

Only fools enter marriage with their eyes shut.  It is a very big decision, that should be entered after serious introspection.  It is the most important decision of your life, and should not be taken lightly. 
But once you choose to marry someone, you give a vow that you will stay together, no matter what.  You give a vow that you will place the well-being of your partner and children over your own selfish desires.  You honor your responsibility and commitment.

Such 'fine' words - but it takes NO account that most people love each other when they marry

Marriage is sacred to some people.

I did not marry young and sought a partner who I THOUGHT had the same values as I ...   I expect many members will be shaking their heads at your making a SPECTACULAR ass of yourself

I disagree.  I believe affairs and divorces are caused by only one reason.  Selfishness.

I've never been unfaithful to my partner - I HAVE entered into a relationship when we have separated for some time and we have commenced divorce proceedings or signed a separation agreement ...  Once again, your words are those of a pompous ass

When you marry, you agree to place what is best for your partner and children over your selfish desires.  You agree to make sacrifices.  You agree to work through problems.  It is win-win for everyone.
When someone begins to place their selfish desires over the family, the relationship breaks down, and it becomes a lose-lose situation.

You get what you give.  And when you stop giving...

Your just can't stop with the Bollox...  WHAT happens when the bread-winner HAS to move - to 'win' for the family and t'other partner doesn't WANT to move ?    Who should compromise ?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quite ...   there comes a time - when the RIGHT thing to do is to end wrongs ...

Divorce is never good when you have kids.  It may be the lesser of two evils, but there is never a good reason for divorce.

You ARE an idiot ... When kids live in a abusive relationship - when one partner is controlling, violent, jealous and involves the kids - best to remove oneself - for THEIR sake

And pursuing another relationship after divorce if you have kids...my goodness, the rate of child abuse is 8 times higher.  30% of those kids are abused.

'Ri-ight' ...  more bollox 'stats' from the 'expert' ...   My daughters would tell you that life with us apart was FAR better...  that their step-dad - for the most part - tolerated the excesses of their Ma.

I know people whose spouses have mental illnesses, and they remain together.  I know marriages that have survived infidelity.  Granted, it takes an enormous amount of work to repair the damage.  But for some people, it's easier to run from problems than to work to fix them.  But when they do that, they never learn how to fix problems.  They just keep running from the problems for the rest of their lives.

One's partner becoming infirm  or 'losing it' is something we may encounter later in life - getting 'practice' with elderly parents ...  Again do you have ANY experience of caring for a partner / parent so afflicted ...  There's plenty of evidence that spending one's time away from the afflicted partner HELPS ....   it does not have to mean infidelity / lack of care

The proper solution is to learn how to avoid marriage with bad apples, and to have the strength to stand up for yourself.

Haha, I'd like to see you 'stand-up for yourself' and tell your partner, "you're not being selfish " ... 

'Carry on' ..

[John Gaunt]

Msmob, once again, you are the one posting the bollox, when you don't know what you are talking about.

Just because someone has never been married doesn't mean they have never had a long term relationship.  It just means that for whatever reason, they have managed to avoid the pitfalls and mistakes made by people who got married and divorced.

However, if someone is divorced, we know they don't know how to have a successful marriage.  They know how to fail, and that they accept failure as an option.  (If they do not accept failure, they would dedicate their lives to trying to reconcile.)  We also know that if they ever pursue another relationship after divorce, that means they have no integrity and can never be trusted.  After all, they gave their word to someone who was supposed to be the most important person in the world to them, that they would never leave, no matter what, and they would never get involved with anyone else until death parted them.
A person is only as good as their word.  If they will break their word to the person who is supposed to be the most important person in the world to them, how can anyone else ever trust anything they say?

People of good intentions make promises.
People of good character keep their promises.

Perhaps a better question is, why are you posting bollox about marriages, when you have dishonored your marital vows?

I’m sorry, but this is just twaddle. Marriages fail for all kinds of reasons, none of which have anything to do with your sanctimonious tripe above.

[Boethius]

I can totally relate to this Gaspar as my situation with that the last girl I was with was much the same. She ordered a plate of Mousaka and barely touched it, even the waiter noticed and commented as well. This was after I told her we had just eaten a couple of hours or so ago. Like your girl she was supposed to come from a poor background but acted like a spoilt LA brat. She apparently like in a small cramped apartment in a concrete block. I was dumbstruck at this sheer wasteful attitude. It was like her flushing my money down the toilet and not caring. To me eden someone you don't like that much this is beyond disrespectful. I had bought her clothes, gave her a small amount of money, paid for all flights, accomodation and car hire (& drove). I had talked to her and tried to be nice to her and yet apparently my walet still deserved to be trashed needless in this manner. Then she had the cheek to demand I get her a tourist visa on top of that. Totally demented behaviour. I don't really care if a guy is X amount of years older than the girl, there is still a basic minimum of respect one should have. If I had been a real arsehole I could understand it, but I had not. This was all in Cyprus so though probably not as expensive as Paris prices not exactly cheap like Ukraine prices either.

So no they don't appreciate it, even when their actions say they do their actions say otherwise. I find with a lot of FSW I message that they have this 'I'm the boss attitude' What is it with that? It's just bizarre and makes them difficult to deal with. I'm guessing that is why they are single as most FSUM can't deal with it either and pass over them. Is a sense of reasonableness too much to ask for, lol.

You were told that unlike most Westerners, Ukrainians (and Russians) don't go to restaurants to tie on a feedbag.  They go to try dishes they don't cook and normally would not eat.  For her, this was a status thing.  How many times do you need this to be explained to you?  It had zero to do with respect.

[Trenchcoat]

You were told that unlike most Westerners, Ukrainians (and Russians) don't go to restaurants to tie on a feedbag.  They go to try dishes they don't cook and normally would not eat.  For her, this was a status thing.  How many times do you need this to be explained to you?  It had zero to do with respect.

For a Ukrainian it may have zero to do with respect for a westerner it very much does. Don't they even try to get educated in western ways/manners before dating? We do there is loads of stuff out there on the internet. Even when explaining to these girls they don't pick up, it's just plain rude and bad manners. Surely when they go to restaurants at home the Ukrainian man does not sit back while they act as such numpties and rack up a nice huge bill for him?

[Boethius]

Does it really?  I'm a Westerner, and would have zero issues with someone not eating what they ordered in a restaurant.  Perhaps they didn't like it. 

Can you point me to the etiquette guide which states one is obliged to finish all the food on his/her plate in a restaurant? 

A normal UM would never tell his date to finish everything on her plate, if she chose not to eat something.

[Trenchcoat]

Does it really?  I'm a Westerner, and would have zero issues with someone not eating what they ordered in a restaurant.  Perhaps they didn't like it. 

Can you point me to the etiquette guide which states one is obliged to finish all the food on his/her plate in a restaurant? 

A normal UM would never tell his date to finish everything on her plate, if she chose not to eat something.

Perhaps they then should pay, at least to offer only seems polite to do so.

These Ukrainians can't be as bad off as they make out. My mother would eat whatever's on her plate whether she liked it or not. She would even finish other people's plates after her own if they did not like something on it. Even if she was full after eating her own meal and struggling to put it away. Why? Because she grew up during post WWII times of rationing and hardship. Essentially not wasting anything as you didn't know where you're next meal was coming, food was scarce.

Yet here we have these so called hard up Ukrainians who are happy to just leave food to go to waste. I don't understand it, it just doesn't add up to me. Even when I was growing up in the eighties as a child, no it was not poor like post war but I was generally expected to eat most of the food provided for me. I NEVER have ever just taken one bite off a plate and then refused the rest or ordered another plate off the main course, another plate! I mean that's just insane.

[Boethius]

Having enough food has never been an issue in Ukraine, other than during forced collectivization and war.  If you travel in Central or Southern Ukraine, you will see rows and rows of fallen fruit, there is so much that people don't even pick it.  Living in poverty is about more than food. 

In Ukraine, women do not pay when they date.  Didn't you say you want an FSUW because you don't like WW's emancipation?  You have to accept their cultural norms if you want a woman who is traditional by their cultural norms.  The restaurant stuff is about going home and boasting.

[Trenchcoat]

Having enough food has never been an issue in Ukraine, other than during forced collectivization and war.  If you travel in Central or Southern Ukraine, you will see rows and rows of fallen fruit, there is so much that people don't even pick it.  Living in poverty is about more than food. 


In Ukraine, women do not pay when they date.  Didn't you say you want an FSUW because you don't like WW's emancipation?  You have to take their culture if you want a woman who is traditional by their cultural norms.

Ah, so that's why they are so thin, they order food/have it available but never eat it, lol.

So what is the guy supposed to do like in Gaspar's case here, just ride out the pain being inflicted on his wallet? Surely a Ukrainian man does not do that, a Ukrainian man still has to pay and as we know money is something Ukrainian men are usually short on.

[Boethius]

They're thin because they walk everywhere.

A UM would know who he is dealing with from Day 1, and would act accordingly.

Now put on your big boy pants, stop whinging, and say to yourself, "I chose a woman who was too young for me, and was not looking for a serious relationship.  I allowed her to manipulate me.  It was a learning experience."

[Boethius]

PS - Also stop assuming that because Ukrainians are poor, they should accept with gratitude whatever you offer them, and just shut up about it.  That's in no way normal in any relationship.

[John Gaunt]

They're thin because they walk everywhere.


A UM would know who he is dealing with from Day 1, and would act accordingly.

It's hopeless, Bo. Why this clueless Brit us looking for a FSUW is beyond me. He wants traditional, just not FSU traditional. Of course, he wants the arm candy flashing a bit of leg and cleavage to impress his mates down the pub although he's also scared stiff of her dumping him for the first better option that shows up. The good thing is that any FSUW will suss him out easily and realise that Trench really is at the bottom of the dirty barrel of WM.

[Trenchcoat]

She chose me, I brought up about the age difference but she stated she was not too young. Yes I learnt a lot from he experience.

I guess food in restaurants food is generally cheap compared to the west so not as big a deal.

I guess at least the girl I was with didn't order second main course dishes and they were ever day restaurants so I did better than Gaspar there. I just lost out on her manipulative nature in buying her stuff. So what I gained on the swings I lost on the roundabout you could say.

Yes a Ukrainian man can no doubt weigh them up and act accordingly. The more I get experience of this scene the better I will get at it I think.

[Trenchcoat]

...although he's also scared stiff of her dumping him for the first better option that shows up.

No longer I think I have finally got that issue squared away

[John Gaunt]

No longer I think I have finally got that issue squared away

No, you most definitely haven't got anything squared away. IF, and that's the mother of all ifs, you ever dupe a FSUW into marrying you, you won't stay married for long.

[Boethius]

She chose me, I brought up about the age difference but she stated she was not too young. Yes I learnt a lot from he experience.

You still met with her, therefore, you chose her.  You also chose to take her on vacation, and where to stay.  You could have chosen an apartment and cooked her meals.

I guess food in restaurants food is generally cheap compared to the west so not as big a deal.

For a Ukrainian, food in restaurants is not cheap.

I guess at least the girl I was with didn't order second main course dishes and they were ever day restaurants so I did better than Gaspar there. I just lost out on her manipulative nature in buying her stuff. So what I gained on the swings I lost on the roundabout you could say.

If she manipulated you, you chose to allow her to do that.

Yes a Ukrainian man can no doubt weigh them up and act accordingly. The more I get experience of this scene the better I will get at it I think.

I don't say this with any malice intended, but, I don't think so.  When you met a sincere woman in L'viv, you unwittingly pushed her away, a cultural miscue, but it was pretty basic.  You can't be hand held, or learn everything online.


Finally, you don't marry a culture.  You marry a person. 

[Bee Farmer]

I judged that it was better to end a marriage than my kids endure my wife's unreasonable behaviour ...  I STILL value marriage, fidelity and think pre-nups are for those who shouldn't GET married 

You agreed for better or for WORSE.  You knew there was a risk of "unreasonable behavior."
You agreed as a condition for being allowed to marry, that even if it failed (the for worse) you would never have a relationship with anyone else until the woman you were marrying died.

You agreed that if the marriage failed, you would remain single, or attempt to reconcile, until one of you died.  You can not say that marriage is sacred or that you value marriage if you have ever had a relationship with someone else after your day if the person you married is still alive.  No ifs, ands, or buts.

Your analogy SUCKS and your very own 'leader' enjoys the support of the GOP - despite his taking folks / banks and being a serial misogynist ... hmmm  So much for 'core values' in 'Merica ?

Trump is not my leader.  He is the President of the USA, elected when 58% of registered voters cast their vote, believing him to be the lesser of two evils.
Frankly, Trump is irrelevant.  I won't go to Heaven or Hell because of his actions.  He does not affect my honor or integrity, and my values are not dependent upon him.

My analogy was very good, and you are upset with the messenger simply because you don't like the message.

20 years ago, I took a mail order course on Successful Investing and Money Management.  At that time, it said that 4% of the population earned $100K+ a year.  It said that if someone's goal was to earn $100K a year, who should they consult for advice - someone in the 4% who had actually achieved that, or should they get financial advice from someone in the 96%?  Sadly, most people get their financial advice from the 96%.
Marriage is no different.  If you want a successful, happy marriage, you should seek out the small percentage of marriages that have achieved the level of success you seek.  It is very foolish to seek relationship advice from people who are divorced, or otherwise do not have the level of marital success you are seeking.

Divorce is not a process one undertakes lightly - indeed - on behalf of at least one partner - it suggests accepting responsibility to sort out a bad situation

The question is not if someone gets divorced, but if they do what they agreed and remain single and try to reconcile until one of them dies, or if they dishonor themselves by having a relationship with someone else.

Really, you simply cannot have had LTRs - as many of us KEEP pointing out that you can live with someone decades and they can change to the point living together becomes impossible

Well, gee, if I wasn't in a long term relationship with a girl for 4.5 years, what the heck was it?

I try to be observant and study people, and relationships.  There's something I've noticed.  The amount of effort a man puts forth into getting to know a girl before they have sex tends to be the limit of the effort he will ever put forth.  As soon as he has sex, he's not really interested in getting to know the girl any better.

For MANY men, their ideal marriage consists of the little more than a one-night stand with the same woman every night, with a comparable level of emotional involvement that he would have with any one-night stand.
And then years down the road, the guy claims the woman changed.  No she didn't.  The guy just never took the time to really know the lady, and she finally got fed up with being treated like a one-night stand.

Boethius is the one who keeps trying to hammer the point that you never know someone until you live with them.  I consider the source.  If you decide to marry someone after one week, you aren't really going to know them until after you have lived with them.  Personally, I believe that it is possible to really know someone to a very high degree before you have lived with them, but it takes a lot of time and work.

Such 'fine' words - but it takes NO account that most people love each other when they marry

That's irrelevant.  Yes, it's very important to love each other, but if the only reason two people are marrying is because they love each other, they don't have any business marrying.  Just because you love someone does not mean that they are marriage material or that they have the qualities or characteristics to be a good partner.

I did not marry young and sought a partner who I THOUGHT had the same values as I ...   I expect many members will be shaking their heads at your making a SPECTACULAR ass of yourself

The only people making a fool of themselves are those who agree to remain single or reconcile or the marriage fails, and then they have a relationship with someone else before the person they married dies.

I've never been unfaithful to my partner - I HAVE entered into a relationship when we have separated for some time and we have commenced divorce proceedings or signed a separation agreement ...  Once again, your words are those of a pompous ass

Unless they died, if you have a relationship with anyone else you are being unfaithful.  You are dishonoring the agreement you made.  You agreed that even if the marriage failed, you would never have a relationship with anyone else until after they were dead.

Once again, your words are those of a spoiled brat who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

WHAT happens when the bread-winner HAS to move - to 'win' for the family and t'other partner doesn't WANT to move ?    Who should compromise ?

Unless a gun is being held to their head, they don't "have" to move.  There are always other options.
They can always find another job locally.  As long as you have enough money to keep the bill collectors at bay (somewhere between poverty and lower class) having more money does little to increase the quality or happiness of your life.  It may be the difference of driving a Cadillac or a Ford, or living in a mansion or a 1500 square foot home, but the quality of their life is very similar.
I have known people where one spouse worked away from home, and was only home on the weekends.  They didn't get divorced.

And maybe our differences of opinion may be in part due to Americans having a mindset of a free person, and Europeans having the mindset of a subject or serf, like Tocqueville noted.

Quite ...   there comes a time - when the RIGHT thing to do is to end wrongs ...

And how does having a relationship with someone else have anything to do with ending wrongs?  It doesn't.
If the least worst solution to wrongs is to separate, then separate, and either remain alone or reconcile, like you agreed to do.

You ARE an idiot ... When kids live in a abusive relationship - when one partner is controlling, violent, jealous and involves the kids - best to remove oneself - for THEIR sake

Divorce may be the least worst solution, but it is never good.  Divorce is always bad, and only an idiot would suggest that divorce was a good thing.  If divorce was a good thing, everyone would enjoy doing it...but for some reason, divorce tends to be a very painful and very not-enjoyable thing for people to do.

'Ri-ight' ...  more bollox 'stats' from the 'expert' ...   My daughters would tell you that life with us apart was FAR better...  that their step-dad - for the most part - tolerated the excesses of their Ma.

Once again, "far better" may be the least worst solution, but it was not good.  Compared to children in stable hones with both biological parents, children of divorced families don't do as well.  Yes, there are exceptions where children with both parents have a miserable time, and single parents who do great, but when you look at it in aggregate, children from broken homes suffer much more.

One's partner becoming infirm  or 'losing it' is something we may encounter later in life -

You agreed "for better or worse," knowing that part of for worse is the aging process...

Again do you have ANY experience of caring for a partner / parent so afflicted ... 

Yes, I do.  I have a widow neighbor lady who is almost 80 who has health issues and is pretty much housebound.  I stop by everyday, and do what needs done.

Haha, I'd like to see you 'stand-up for yourself' and tell your partner, "you're not being selfish " ... 

That's normally a big compliment, although it's usually phrased as them being selfless.

Marriages fail for all kinds of reasons, none of which have anything to do with your sanctimonious tripe above.

Marriages fail because of selfishness.  One person begins to put their desires over what is best for the family.  It builds resentment, and everything goes downhill.

This may manifest itself in many ways, but this is the reason marriages fail.

For a Ukrainian it may have zero to do with respect for a westerner it very much does. Don't they even try to get educated in western ways/manners before dating? We do there is loads of stuff out there on the internet. Even when explaining to these girls they don't pick up, it's just plain rude and bad manners. Surely when they go to restaurants at home the Ukrainian man does not sit back while they act as such numpties and rack up a nice huge bill for him?

I NEVER have ever just taken one bite off a plate and then refused the rest or ordered another plate off the main course, another plate! I mean that's just insane.

I went out to eat with a woman a few years ago.  She tried a new dish.  She took 2 bites and decided she didn't like it.  So she got another dish that she then ate.

The dish she didn't like, she did take home in a doggie bag to give to her dog.

I didn't think anything of her not eating the dish, and ordering something else.

When I was a kid, my dad's saying was, "Take what you want, but eat what you take."  The only thing is, him and mom loaded your plate, and you had to eat everything, even if you didn't like it.  They also said that when I was an adult, I didn't have to eat something if I didn't like it.  So I know what it is like to be forced to eat stuff you can't stand, and I don't think anything of adults who choose not to eat something they don't like.

If you travel in Central or Southern Ukraine, you will see rows and rows of fallen fruit, there is so much that people don't even pick it.

When I was in Odessa, there were Carpathian walnuts everywhere.  I didn't see anyone picking them up.  The pigeons however, were quite familiar with walnuts, and would eagerly flock around you if you cracked walnuts for them.

Ah, so that's why they are so thin, they order food/have it available but never eat it, lol.

No, they are thin because they almost never go to restaurants and eat.  They don't eat as much fattening, high processed foods either.
Also, higher stress from a harsh life also burns more calories.
And, they do walk more.

So what is the guy supposed to do like in Gaspar's case here, just ride out the pain being inflicted on his wallet? Surely a Ukrainian man does not do that, a Ukrainian man still has to pay and as we know money is something Ukrainian men are usually short on.

If a man considers the money spent on a woman to be pain inflicted on his wallet, he shouldn't have offered to spend it.
You don't gamble money you can't afford to lose.  If you can't afford the financial costs of playing the game, you don't play.

[Boethius]

Ukrainians were thinner in the 1980’s as well, before Westerners started eating badly. Just FTR, I don’t find Ukrainians to be noticeably thinner than people in my city until about age 35 or 40.

[Trenchcoat]

You still met with her, therefore, you chose her.  You also chose to take her on vacation, and where to stay.  You could have chosen an apartment and cooked her meals.

Finally, you don't marry a culture.  You marry a person.

Yes people from cultures can vary, the girl I had fortunately did not order second main course dishes, Gaspar's did. However many will no doubt be influenced by their culture and this may need some reconciling to get to a situation of better understanding for both I think.

Yes an apartment would have been better we had one in Kiev. She could do a good breakfast fry up, but she never seemed to want to cook any main meals, dinner or lunch. I got the impression she didn't like to cook much. So situation much like Gaspar's there as we eat out anyway. On Cyprus we just had a Hotel, unfortunately it had a mini bar and she had the annoying habit of instead of finishing her present bottle of opening a new one and leaving the other, or opening one just to taste what it was like - er, that all costs my dear. I think she got the message after I spoke to her about it as it was just peeing my money away needlessly again. Fortunately I don't think the hotel maid kept on top of it all Thankfully also none were expensive bottles of alcohol, just small bottles of mineral water and the like.

So yes if choosing somewhere on holiday for the first time go somewhere cheap - I hear Turkey is dirt cheap, do the apartment thing to see that she is up for cooking and don't book in for a long holiday. Try and educate the woman about how to behave pretty early on in a relationship, we can be talking about starting at ground zero here and working our way up!

[Trenchcoat]

Ukrainians were thinner in the 1980’s as well, before Westerners started eating badly. Just FTR, I don’t find Ukrainians to be noticeably thinner than people in my city until about age 35 or 40.

Ukrainian women are definitely thinner overall than UK chicks. They will definitely  be way thinner than most US chicks no contest. Canada may be different because the cold weather often gas a slimming effect.

[Boethius]

Yes people from cultures can vary, the girl I had fortunately did not order second main course dishes, Gaspar's did. However many will no doubt be influenced by their culture and this may need some reconciling to get to a situation of better understanding for both I think.

Yes an apartment would have been better we had one in Kiev. She could do a good breakfast fry up, but she never seemed to want to cook any main meals, dinner or lunch. I got the impression she didn't like to cook much. So situation much like Gaspar's there as we eat out anyway. On Cyprus we just had a Hotel, unfortunately it had a mini bar and she had the annoying habit of instead of finishing her present bottle of opening a new one and leaving the other, or opening one just to taste what it was like - er, that all costs my dear. I think she got the message after I spoke to her about it as it was just peeing my money away needlessly again. Fortunately I don't think the hotel maid kept on top of it all Thankfully also none were expensive bottles of alcohol, just small bottles of mineral water and the like.

So yes if choosing somewhere on holiday for the first time go somewhere cheap - I hear Turkey is dirt cheap, do the apartment thing to see that she is up for cooking and don't book in for a long holiday. Try and educate the woman about how to behave pretty early on in a relationship, we can be talking about starting at ground zero here and working our way up!

And this is why you will fail.

Ukrainian women are definitely thinner overall than UK chicks. They will definitely  be way thinner than most US chicks no contest. Canada may be different because the cold weather often gas a slimming effect.

This has been debated ad nauseum on the forum.


I've been to US cities, and young women are just as thin as in Ukraine.  Lots of AM have stated the same.  UW tend to turn out better in public. 

[msmob]

You agreed for better or for WORSE.  You knew there was a risk of "unreasonable behavior."

Still being the forum village idiot ?

I'm WELL aware of my vows and I HAVE pointed out my kids will tell you life was better when one of us removed ourselves from 'the equation' ... Given the wife warned me she would make sure my kids HATED me if I left her  - something she succeeded in for a long time .. I STILL moved out and ultimately divorced her as it was the RIGHT thing to do for my main obligation ... the kids we created ...  I didn't run off and find another lady - re-marrying 5 years later

You agreed as a condition for being allowed to marry, that even if it failed (the for worse) you would never have a relationship with anyone else until the woman you were marrying died.

You DO NOT understand that Divorce is on the statue of most nations and WHY ?  The guy that married us was....divorced ..not his choice...

You agreed that if the marriage failed, you would remain single, or attempt to reconcile, until one of you died.  You can not say that marriage is sacred or that you value marriage if you have ever had a relationship with someone else after your day if the person you married is still alive.  No ifs, ands, or buts.

I can and DO ...    Your mistake is telling others who have worn the unfortunate t-shirt where they went 'wrong' and that they should have 'endured'

Trump is not my leader.  He is the President of the USA, elected when 58% of registered voters cast their vote, believing him to be the lesser of two evils.
Frankly, Trump is irrelevant.  I won't go to Heaven or Hell because of his actions.  He does not affect my honor or integrity, and my values are not dependent upon him.

You 'got' my point - you are just distancing yourself !  He chose Mike Pence as his running mate as he was the polar opposite and yet I fear if 'Trampu' had to go - we'd get this holier than thou, intolerant, 'Christian' ..SCARY

My analogy was very good, and you are upset with the messenger simply because you don't like the message.

You clearly read selectively.. it sucked - hence no 'upset' this end...))

20 years ago, I took a mail order course on Successful Investing and Money Management.  At that time, it said that 4% of the population earned $100K+ a year.  It said that if someone's goal was to earn $100K a year, who should they consult for advice - someone in the 4% who had actually achieved that, or should they get financial advice from someone in the 96%?  Sadly, most people get their financial advice from the 96%.
Marriage is no different.  If you want a successful, happy marriage, you should seek out the small percentage of marriages that have achieved the level of success you seek.  It is very foolish to seek relationship advice from people who are divorced, or otherwise do not have the level of marital success you are seeking.

You seem to spend your life quoting BOLLOX analogies ... 

NO ONE, other than the two people and anyone that lives with 'em ( kids?) knows how good a  marriage is ...  Anyone, meeting my first wife and kids with me in the street though we were a 'wonderful family' ...

The question is not if someone gets divorced, but if they do what they agreed and remain single and try to reconcile until one of them dies, or if they dishonor themselves by having a relationship with someone else.

You are an UTTER idiot ...   I was happy and relieved when the mother of my kids recently remarried

Well, gee, if I wasn't in a long term relationship with a girl for 4.5 years, what the heck was it?

Given what you post, your conclusions from your 'observing people' - I can only conclude you live in a bubble ...  As already pointed out - you simply cannot know how some people change when behind closed doors

I try to be observant and study people, and relationships.  There's something I've noticed.  The amount of effort a man puts forth into getting to know a girl before they have sex tends to be the limit of the effort he will ever put forth.  As soon as he has sex, he's not really interested in getting to know the girl any better.

More Bollox generalisations ...  I'm a guy that has never paid for sex and sex without love, for me, leaves me sad... 

Like your 'analogies', your conclusions are risible

For MANY men, their ideal marriage consists of the little more than a one-night stand with the same woman every night, with a comparable level of emotional involvement that he would have with any one-night stand.
And then years down the road, the guy claims the woman changed.  No she didn't.  The guy just never took the time to really know the lady, and she finally got fed up with being treated like a one-night stand.

Have you been married or had kids ....  so you have NO idea about what you are talking about .... people DO change ...I haven't ...but I saw my partner show sides to her character that she had kept WELL hidden

Boethius is the one who keeps trying to hammer the point that you never know someone until you live with them.  I consider the source.  If you decide to marry someone after one week, you aren't really going to know them until after you have lived with them.  Personally, I believe that it is possible to really know someone to a very high degree before you have lived with them, but it takes a lot of time and work.

You are just 'mistaken' ...  more of your bollox theories ...   

That's irrelevant.  Yes, it's very important to love each other, but if the only reason two people are marrying is because they love each other, they don't have any business marrying.  Just because you love someone does not mean that they are marriage material or that they have the qualities or characteristics to be a good partner.

Now, your are twisting and turning, wriggling like a worm on a hook as one of your 'corner-stones' of why marriages 'fail 'got busted ...

LOVE is a feeling that you want to share everything - with your partner ...  Most people enter marriage with this attitude..they aren't worried about failing - see no reason why it would fail 

The only people making a fool of themselves are those who agree to remain single or reconcile or the marriage fails, and then they have a relationship with someone else before the person they married dies.

What?.. You're going to need to write a little clearer .....  My interpretation of your wack job beliefs is that one HAD to remain single, if splitting  ))))

See below: ( priceless)

Unless they died, if you have a relationship with anyone else you are being unfaithful.  You are dishonoring the agreement you made.  You agreed that even if the marriage failed, you would never have a relationship with anyone else until after they were dead.

Once more, I'll remind you that Divorce is  permitted - and for good reason - in most nations

Once again, your words are those of a spoiled brat who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

What ?! ... If I had been unfaithful - you might have a point ... Only an idiot like you would regard having a relationship with someone else whilst your divorced ex-partner is remarried a 'sin'

Unless a gun is being held to their head, they don't "have" to move.  There are always other options.
They can always find another job locally.  As long as you have enough money to keep the bill collectors at bay (somewhere between poverty and lower class) having more money does little to increase the quality or happiness of your life.  It may be the difference of driving a Cadillac or a Ford, or living in a mansion or a 1500 square foot home, but the quality of their life is very similar.
I have known people where one spouse worked away from home, and was only home on the weekends.  They didn't get divorced.

My father commuted between counties and ultimately my Mum agreed to move across the Irish Sea..  I believed the way he worked to keep his family sent him to an early grave... so. believe me I know about 'sacrifice'

My Mum, could and should have agreed to move earlier ..again your 'theories' don't hold up in practice

Below we see yet another one ! 

And maybe our differences of opinion may be in part due to Americans having a mindset of a free person, and Europeans having the mindset of a subject or serf, like Tocqueville noted.

Newsflash :  Most Americans are descended from Europeans and Europeans come in many favours .... Many Americans think they are 'Irish' - having had - some generations ago - Irish ancestors

Many Western Europeans identify more closely with Americans than Southern or Eastern Europeans ... You don't appear to be well-travelled - if you read and believe twaddle like that

And how does having a relationship with someone else have anything to do with ending wrongs?  It doesn't.
If the least worst solution to wrongs is to separate, then separate, and either remain alone or reconcile, like you agreed to do.

Third time, Divorce is on the statute of America, yes ?   For good reason ... Divorce in my country means a couple that do not agree to end the marriage cannot divorce for FIVE years...  *I* find that expecting one partner who has decided it's over to change their mind is someone unrealistic...  I've been on both sides of the situation ... Five years is prob too long.

Divorce may be the least worst solution, but it is never good.  Divorce is always bad, and only an idiot would suggest that divorce was a good thing.  If divorce was a good thing, everyone would enjoy doing it...but for some reason, divorce tends to be a very painful and very not-enjoyable thing for people to do.

My apologies if you get the impression I thought / think divorce is 'good' ..  it is horrible ... but where we differ is that I can see it is utterly ridiculous to expect a couple to remain in a marriage that is bad - or live out their lives 'single' - as some sort of 'punishment' for 'breaking your vows' ..

If you have had a LTR then don't you find your desire for a pure virgin somewhat pompous....?  Or did you live for 4.5 years with a woman without sexual intercourse ?

Once again, "far better" may be the least worst solution, but it was not good.  Compared to children in stable hones with both biological parents, children of divorced families don't do as well.  Yes, there are exceptions where children with both parents have a miserable time, and single parents who do great, but when you look at it in aggregate, children from broken homes suffer much more.

I speak from my circumstances and have been a step-dad to someone else's son ...   I would not say he has suffered from his parents divorce and living with me )))

You agreed "for better or worse," knowing that part of for worse is the aging process...

I readily admit I broke my marital vows....  I did the RIGHT thing

I have a widow neighbor lady who is almost 80 who has health issues and is pretty much housebound.  I stop by everyday, and do what needs done.

Good boy, but how id that relevant ?

Marriages fail because of selfishness.  One person begins to put their desires over what is best for the family.  It builds resentment, and everything goes downhill.

There is no one reason for marital breakdowns ...and my reason was what was best for my Kids...

Lastly, could you learn to quote to show to whom you are responding to ?   You seem to want to be seen as a 'good chap'

[Davo2]

 The problem with all this death "til death do you part" issue is, I'm not religious and identify as an atheist. Honestly I haven't been to a wedding in the last 15 years that mentioned "til death do you part", god or been in a church and  I can't think of anyone I know who's religious, except for the FSU woman I'm talking to.

If I was to identify with anything spiritual it would be Buddhism..... There are some truly inspiration writings and has helped me a lot over the last few years. It's the only religious text that is as relevant today as when it was first written.