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Author Topic: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...  (Read 34437 times)

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Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2013, 07:54:54 AM »
What will hurt me will be, as most part of my wealth comes from my family is to see my father, grand father, grand mother standing up from their graves and looking at me every morning in the bathroom with this disappointed face : "why have you been so stupid ?" for the rest of my life if i divorce,  giving a large part of what i own. Do i spit to 3 full generations of labour, my own blood ? THREE GENERATIONS of labour disbanded in few minutes because i im too lazy or too craven to not sign a document ?

Pat:

You have two choices.

1) Don't marry. Ever.

2) Work your ass off making your marriage successful.

Your grand parents are dead and buried. Keep it that way.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Gator

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #126 on: March 13, 2013, 09:14:16 AM »

I would, and will, try to teach my kids what is really valuable in life and that is certainly not related to money or stuff.

Interesting use of the word "teach."   Ade, you are an intelligent man and you seem very enthused about being a father.  As a long time  father, and certainly old enough to be a grandfather, I share the following with a new father just starting his 20-year lesson plan.

What do I consider the most valuable life  lessons for children?   Answer:  the joy of family, friends and love.  Also important:  forgiveness, generosity, respect and gratitude for the blessing of life, honesty, etc.   However, the values I just listed are not intentionally taught but can only be inculcated from the way you as a parent live your life.  They are watching you all the time.
 
What is taught to kids to prepare them for the maze of life?  I place "money" but not "stuff" in my innumerable list as follows:  discipline (self-control), importance of knowledge, goal setting - risk taking - risk management, determination,  etc. The category of discipline includes health management and money management.  Yes, IMO, money management is a valuable life lesson. 
 
Making money is also a good lesson, but enjoying money is even better.  A Mexican saying,  "money belongs not to the person who makes it, but to the person who spends it."  The saying continues with "love belongs not to the one who receives it but to the person who gives it."
 
Before I close, please think about this.  A long time ago a smart woman told me something that has really helped me with my children:   catch your kids doing something right and immediately praise them.   Too many parents IMO focus on the negative.

I do not want nor expect a response.

Offline Gator

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #127 on: March 13, 2013, 09:27:58 AM »


This is the real difference between most of those that want a pre-nup and those that don't. You guys value stuff way too much and I suspect it will hurt your marriages in the long run.  :-X

Stuff?   :D  I drive a 1998 SUV.   I consider it very functional, and the annual depreciation is nil.   I can park it anywhere without concern. 
 
I admit to having some  stuff, yet I enjoy and appreciate this stuff the same as my wife appreciates jewelry.  However, we are not prisoners to it.   It is partially insured, and if a burglar stole it, c'est la vie.  In fact, my wife had some far more expensive jewelry from her first husband that was stolen a long time ago.  She does not fret but did insist I buy a safe.

Offline Gator

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #128 on: March 13, 2013, 09:42:44 AM »
You are the one who does not get it.

If a man trust his babe, there is no reason for him to start thinking about divorce and maintenance BEFORE they even get married.

Ergo, anyone who is demanding prenups is planning to fail.

It IS that plain and simple.

Planning to fail?    Or planning for the adverse consequences if failure, however unlikely, were to occur.

From Wiki:  Risk management is the identification, assessment, and prioritization of risks (defined in ISO 31000 as the effect of uncertainty on objectives, whether positive or negative) followed by coordinated and economical application of resources to minimize, monitor, and control the probability and/or impact of unfortunate events.
 
I do not expect to be involved in a serious automobile accident,  yet I wear my seatbelt.   I buy "uninsured motorist" insurance.  I also have flood insurance.
 
Did you buy life insurance so your wife could continue her present lifestyle in the unlikely event of your early death? 
 

Offline Patagonie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #129 on: March 13, 2013, 09:56:12 AM »
Gator introduced two smart concepts :

money management
risk management

risk of divorce : almost 50 % in the west.

And me i add two values :
The respect of the labour (money is just a transcription of that) 
The respect of elders
"Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2013, 10:01:06 AM »

Planning to fail?    Or planning for the adverse consequences if failure, however unlikely, were to occur.


I see you understand now. Planning to fail.

Dude, I've been doing risk assessments for risk managers for almost 30 years. I KNOW what risk management is. Planning for failure.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Paulie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #131 on: March 13, 2013, 10:13:24 AM »
Hi Everyone...

I am on my way back to Los Angeles and right now the plane is just now entering the lower part of the Arctic circle. 

The last few days in Istanbul were very interesting and I know for the sake of my health, emotions, and financial well-being, I must let go of this woman.  It is sad because she does have a sweet, endearing way about her.  The love does run deep, I do not doubt that.  I touched her heart, she touched mine.  I don't think I ever met such an intense woman with so many positive characteristics. 

HOWEVER, there is an equal and opposite side that counter balances what I just wrote.  It has to do with her expectations, attitude, money and IMHO - entitlement.  It also makes me think this might be not as real as I thought.  Is it really possible that someone can fake deep love and affection and do it so well? 

Without getting into a discourse that would turn into a tome, I will just merely highlight some key thoughts below:
1) As a gift, I bought her a new video cam.  When it was time for her to look at it, she was sitting on her couch and angrily made a comment that during the week that I was there, I didn't take the time to show her how it works  (I had work to do and we were busy with one another).  First off, I dislike video cams and do not even attempt to use them.  In any event, she said I should have 'studied' the manual and then demonstrated it to her. She said ‘my ex used to do that.'  (Did that comment ever piss me off.)  I responded that I would have preferred to sit with her and go through it together.  She kept on and on, so I just excused myself from her presence and walked into another room.  I was fuming!  Later she came to me and apologized, stating that she was feeling badly about my leaving the next day.  Is that ever a funny way of showing you are going to miss someone!
 
2) As I mentioned to all of you, her apartment was robbed.  They took about $2,000.  I said she shouldn't worry and that I would help her.  I did not say how much.  While I was in Istanbul, I went to the bank and was able to withdraw $500 cash which was all I could take out.  I then attempted to use my business ATM card and was planning to take out another $1,000.  But the card would not work.  When I went back to her car, I handed her the $500 and she had this disappointed look on her face before I could even explain what took place.  She said "you should have brought money with you" and then handed me back the $500 stating she didn't want it.  I thought to myself 'now this is an ungrateful person, I am done.' 

We did not talk about both incidents much after that.  I was trying to just make it through the day and all I could think about was going home. 

Later that afternoon we went for a walk and my conversation was quite candid about #3) below.

3) We talked about her 'real estate' security issue and I told her there is no way I will be handing over $100K to $150K of my money to pay for real estate in her name.  I said if we were married, that would be OK and it would have to be joint.  She said we were on a different page.  She said “you don’t trust me.”  She is right, I do not…not based on the way she goes about trying to get what she wants. 

After the walk and as we were getting close to the car, she turned to me and said - "you are a good man, I know you will do this for me" as she looked me in the eyes.  As we drove home the conversation was polite, no talk about the above issues again.

When we came back to her place, it went right back to the 'romantic' feelings.  She cooked dinner, we sat and listened to music and had a polite conversation.  I have to admit, I was feeling really distant and she knew it. 

Later as we were going to sleep, she turned to me and said "no matter what happens, you will have been my greatest love."  As a side note, I find it interesting that if someone admits to finding their 'greatest love,' they would do anything to hold onto it and find a way to work through the obstacles.  I will be thinking of this for some time to come.

Lastly, as I was preparing to leave for the airport this morning, I decided to give her the $500 and said for her to please take it.  She didn't even say thank you.  Wanna know what she said as we were driving to the airport?  "I need more than this."  What nerve. 

In her mind we are in a relationship.  Her rationale is that being the situation, I should be offering to help her in any and every way.  By the way, when I came to her the beginning of the week, she laid the utility bill in the amount of $380 Turkish Lira on the table where my computer was sitting.  I knew what she wanted.  Frankly, I let it sit there all week.  I felt so put out by that gesture. 

Overall, she said a couple of times that I do not know how to take care of her.  A few times she mentioned her ex-husband's capabilities of taking care of her. (I guess she forgot that he compromised her financially and put her on the street.)

During this recent trip, I became more of a casual observer and started to realize that my gal was being not only demanding, but negative much of the time.   If I were to mention something, she would make an anthill into a mountain.  She would literally just 'pick up the ball' and run with the idea in a negative direction.  I was really surprised because I thought she had the capacity to be a reasonable person.  I offered that we could work together and she kept pointing out that it would be mostly my responsibility or this or that idea would not work. 

So my new found friends, I am done.  I am sad, but I am done.  This is not a person who would change her thinking because she found love.  In fact, I will share this thought with you:  I think she is in the position she is in because she has it backwards and that no man would be able to tolerate such a demanding woman who says RIGHT OUT LOUD “I DESERVE TO BE TAKEN CARE OF.”  Really now?  I suppose we all deserve a winning lottery ticket. 

I will now become part of this forum and I will listen, share and learn.  I am not sure if an RW is what I want to pursue.  It seems to be a lot of work.  I will keep an open mind though. 

Best wishes to all!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 10:21:42 AM by Paulie »

Online Faux Pas

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #132 on: March 13, 2013, 10:26:30 AM »
Paulie

My friend, it is better you not only discovered this now but, much better you didn't marry her and discover it later. The drop dead gorgeous good looks, warm loving mood and the sexy accent is blinding to many a men. It can make bad behavior harder to recognize. I have a feeling you're optimistic enough that you'll recognize bad behavior sooner the next time around

Offline Patagonie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #133 on: March 13, 2013, 10:34:43 AM »
Paulie
you impress me
i know that you have deep feelings, it hurts, a lot.
Take care of you,
Take the time to do this morny, if it is your decision.
Anyway you will be stronger in the future.

Faux Pas is right FSU women are so brilliant, so sexy, so feminine in any sense that you so attract to them that you finally loose the way to assess things with the cool head.
I have been in such situation after my first trip, believe me i am still thinking to this woman, three years and half after, but the choice i have done since is really, really better ....
"Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

Offline Gator

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #134 on: March 13, 2013, 10:47:37 AM »
I see you understand now. Planning to fail.

Dude, I've been doing risk assessments for risk managers for almost 30 years. I KNOW what risk management is. Planning for failure.

Why do you use the term "planning to fail" instead of "planning for failure."   Prepositions have meaning to me.   
 
If I surmise correctly from the little you reveal in your posts about your profession, your work dealt with toxic chemicals, presumably with regard to carcinogenesis.    The lifetime probability that a human will die of cancer is 25%, yet the federal government standard for exposure is to not increase cancer risk by more than 1x106 .     
 
In other words, your 30 years of risk assessments had the objective to assure cancer risk does not increase from 25% to 25.000001%.     Please don't suggest that everyone should ignore a 50% probability of failure when your professional mission was a scientific analysis of a 0.000001% probability target.   
 
We are from different planets.   I give my opinion for my life, pointing out my reasons for a prenup and highlighting the protection that a good prenup can afford both parties.  I do not state that everyone should do it, nor do I criticize those who do not.  You voice a contrarian opinion.  And that is what RWD does best.  However, you do not stop there but criticize if not belittle those who consider more issues than you did.      Do you see the difference?  Why make it personal?   
 
I am becoming less tolerant, or more jaded, or something.  I sense a growing narrowmindedness at RWD, and it is beginning to annoy me in my golden years.
 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 10:49:18 AM by Gator »

Offline Paulie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #135 on: March 13, 2013, 10:53:03 AM »
Faux & Patagonie,

You are both right and I appreciate our new friendship, especially all of your support and no judgement.  Really, it means a lot to me. 

During the last 8 months I pretty much cut myself off from the mainstream as I focused on this gal.  We spent hours and hours on Skype...professing our love, talking about being together, listening to one another's trials and tribulations of life. 

When we were together, it was a fairy tale for the most part.  When we didn't talk money and finance, everything was fine.  We had a few minor quarrels as most couples would.  But, the under current of her bad behavior was something I tolerated for way too long.  I am actually thinking she has a problem with men in general.  And, I am not going to get into that.  I do know some things she told me about her upbringing which lead to make that comment. 

You are both right:  I was unable to make a clear headed assessment because she had me in her 'clutches' through her charm, beauty, wit, culinary skills, outgoing personality and much more.  However, it turns out it is disingenuous.  Sadly she does not see how this has worked against her in her life.  What she attracted in the past was just as disingenuous as she was - she used them and they used her.  In the end, she has very little to show for it. 

Honestly, I would have made her life very comfortable; I would have helped her get started here;  I started a consulting firm and immediately took on a client so I could help support her needs for the future.  But her greed, her self-centered nature and especially her fears have a grip on her. 

Now it is time for me to reflect and some time down this path of life, I will reach out again.  Next time I will be more vigilant.  Boy, did this one teach me a lesson or two or three!


Offline Gator

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #136 on: March 13, 2013, 11:17:08 AM »
Paulie,
Great decision.
 :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
 
Many a man has become ensnarled during his first trip in the web woven by a beautiful RW black widow spider.   However, you escaped. 
 
I knew your analytical skills would prevail, and in fact your original post showed that you had already developed some serious concerns.   It really helped that you were candid with your explanation and open to comments instead of rationalizing what was obviously bad behavior. 
 
In some ways you encouraged this woman's behavior.  That is no excuse for her behavior because a good RW would not have tried to take advantage of you.  You have learned much from this experience.  There are many fine and sincere RW who would enjoy meeting you.   You will know what to do.  So I suggest that you give it another try.

Offline calmissile

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #137 on: March 13, 2013, 11:22:28 AM »
No calmissle, that is not at all what I stated. Does the wife having two homes and an income earning estate seem to you as the prevailing problem here?

Much as Ade pointed out. If you have 5 million in personal wealth and get divorced and lose half of it to a spouse thus leaving you with a paltry 2.5 million and the guy down the street has $100K in his 401K account and $50K equity in his house and loses half of that in a divorce, who is the worse off? You greedy bastids will say the one with 2.5 mil and that's just not the the case. Would you rather have the 2.5 mil or the $75K most of which is nothing but paper? So you guys with "substantial assets" whinning over "oh I HAVE to have a prenup" are just blowing smoke up your own ass. If you are that weathy and that scared of losing some or all of it, simply don't marry.

That said, a good business person is going to protect that business. Separating personal wealth from business wealth is sound business practice. If I had a family fortune and heirs to protect, I would protect them but, that would not be "my" wealth anyway. I would still have "my" personal wealth and a woman I chose to marry would be subject to that.

I am not a wealthy man by any measures but, I am no pauper either. However, my personal wealth is just as important to me as you blowhards claiming "substantial assets". Do not think for a moment that it isn't. Back to my original point, I would not marry a woman who was not worthy of at least half of my "stuff"  :D

I am not trying to give you a hard time.  We might even be in agreement, however your hostility to the topic makes it difficult to explore your convictions.
I gave you a very simple scenario to respond to and hoped to receive a simple answer without all the moral additions.
If I read your response correctly, we might be in agreement.

You stated that of course you would protect business interests and inheritance that was received prior to marriage.
Loosly translated, this means that you would protect these pre-marital assets from a divorce.
If this is the case, we are in agreement!

You comments that appear to be directed about wealth accumulated after marriage belong to both of you.  We also agree on that.  It is already covered by laws in the community property states and a prenup would be unnecessary to address these assets.

I understand your moral position that marriage is supposed to be built on love and we should enter into it without any consideration of it failing.  This is the common way most people (particularly young) enter into their first marriage (including mine).  Both parties enter into the marriage with rose colored glasses and have no thoughts of failure.  Neither party has any thoughts of a divorce or that either party could become someone that would rather destroy the families community property rather than see the other spouse receive the 50/50 split that he/she is entitled to in a divorce.

I think most people enter into their first marriage with exactly the same beliefs and attitude you have.  It is only after a hostile divorce that they look back and realize how much of their life's labor went down the drain to lawyers.  You apparently do not have an appreciation for the fact that one of the parties (husband or wife) can become very hostile in a divorce and can completely destroy the family assets that both have earned over the years.  Those rose colored glasses you each wore when entering the marriage have vanished in a hostile divorce.  If you have not been in this position it is understandable that you do not understand why couples take a more businesslike approach to protect any pre-marital assets they own in a subsequent marriage.

If I read your response correctly, you would protect any business, inheritance, and significant assets you owned prior to entering a marriage.  That we agree on.
Wealth accumulated during the marriage are automatically equally owned by both parties, so a prenup is superfluous for this, as they will be shared 50/50.  I don't think we have any disagreement on this issue either.
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #138 on: March 13, 2013, 11:28:03 AM »
...I will now become part of this forum and I will listen, share and learn...

Paulie, thank you for telling about the end of this story. I suppose all is over with that woman. I can't say that it is good because of broken feelings and hopes, but anyway it is better you had realized everything about her before marrying her. Money and other material things are the main things for her. You will meet your only woman and when you have met her, you will see it at once, I am sure, and you will not need any advices, although we will always be ready to share our opinions with you. I wish you the best. Be lucky! :)

Offline calmissile

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #139 on: March 13, 2013, 11:31:57 AM »
I see you understand now. Planning to fail.

Dude, I've been doing risk assessments for risk managers for almost 30 years. I KNOW what risk management is. Planning for failure.

That's sort of interesting.  You are an expert in risk management, yet you can ignore the 50% failure rate in marriages.  It appears that your 'moral views' is allowing you to ignore the 50% risk factor that you would normally be considering in your risk management training and experience.

Somehow that does not square when applying simple logic.  I doubt anyone has any issue with whatever you choose for yourself (prenup or no-prenuup).   Why are you so furious with people that have a different set of views?
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline Larry1

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #140 on: March 13, 2013, 11:32:23 AM »
Eventually the accumulated weight of bad behavior makes you unwilling to keep on with the relationship, no matter how appealing the woman's other qualities.  I'm happy that you weren't willing to keep excusing this pattern of bad behavior.  As Tulip, Faux Pas, and others wrote above, it is good that you didn't marry her.

Quote
  I am not sure if an RW is what I want to pursue.  It seems to be a lot of work.  I will keep an open mind though.   

It is more work because of the long distance, but if you find one who is right for you it's all worth it.  And, as Gator pointed out below, there are many sincere, genuine, and nice FSUW out there.

Quote
There are many fine and sincere RW who would enjoy meeting you.   You will know what to do.  So I suggest that you give it another try.


Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #141 on: March 13, 2013, 11:37:37 AM »

I will now become part of this forum and I will listen, share and learn.  I am not sure if an RW is what I want to pursue.  It seems to be a lot of work.  I will keep an open mind though. 

Best wishes to all!

Wow, that was a mouthful.

Take a step back, take a deep breath and relax.

Not all RW are like that. I know plenty that feel like you do, more spiritual. I also know of one (wife's friend here) that is carbon copy of what you describe. Still, she is a nice lady, but not one I would date.

Just take your time to reassess.

BTW, did you officially 'broke' with her? If she ask why, I would suggest you print what you just wrote and send it to her.

Good luck. Actually, you had lots of it, you lucky dog.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Patagonie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #142 on: March 13, 2013, 11:50:36 AM »
That's sort of interesting.  You are an expert in risk management, yet you can ignore the 50% failure rate in marriages.  It appears that your 'moral views' is allowing you to ignore the 50% risk factor that you would normally be considering in your risk management training and experience.

Somehow that does not square when applying simple logic.  I doubt anyone has any issue with whatever you choose for yourself (prenup or no-prenuup).   Why are you so furious with people that have a different set of views?
Yes good question, why is he so furious with people whot takes THE unavoidable 50 % in account ?
"Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

Offline Belvis

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #143 on: March 13, 2013, 11:52:14 AM »
Is it really possible that someone can fake deep love and affection and do it so well? 
Love is a bitch. You were lucky she was sincere with you and you saw her personality crystal clear.

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #144 on: March 13, 2013, 12:08:06 PM »

Why do you use the term "planning to fail" instead of "planning for failure."   Prepositions have meaning to me.   
 
If I surmise correctly from the little you reveal in your posts about your profession, your work dealt with toxic chemicals, presumably with regard to carcinogenesis.    The lifetime probability that a human will die of cancer is 25%, yet the federal government standard for exposure is to not increase cancer risk by more than 1x106 .     
 
In other words, your 30 years of risk assessments had the objective to assure cancer risk does not increase from 25% to 25.000001%.     Please don't suggest that everyone should ignore a 50% probability of failure when your professional mission was a scientific analysis of a 0.000001% probability target.   
 
We are from different planets.   I give my opinion for my life, pointing out my reasons for a prenup and highlighting the protection that a good prenup can afford both parties.  I do not state that everyone should do it, nor do I criticize those who do not.  You voice a contrarian opinion.  And that is what RWD does best.  However, you do not stop there but criticize if not belittle those who consider more issues than you did.      Do you see the difference?  Why make it personal?   
 
I am becoming less tolerant, or more jaded, or something.  I sense a growing narrowmindedness at RWD, and it is beginning to annoy me in my golden years.

Fine.

First, Juan in a million is NOT carved in stone, and you should know that. Juan in a million is a benchmark where RISK MANAGERS can make engineering and 'political' decisions. Juan has many cousins; Juan in a hundred thousand, Juan in ten thousand and others.

Also, I have no clue where you got that 25% probability.

Let me share with you something. The risk that a man will develop bladder cancer during his lifetime is 3.81%.  This means this person has a chance of Juan in 26 of developing bladder cancer (100/3.81= 26). I can understand maybe why you chose this number.

However, there is a 1.5% chance for those between 45 and 54 and 19.8% for those between 65 and 74. That is in general. Now, why don't we look at the population of workers exposed to certain chemicals and do some calculations? (Hint: I do that)

There are people who are dedicated to follow trends and anticipate the odds. Those are risk assessors. Then there are those who will take the information from the risk assessors to calculate the chances of the effect of uncertainty on objectives. In my business we call that a causal effect. Others may call it failure.

Is that clear for you now?

I know a cure for being annoyed by certain events: move somewhere else.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #145 on: March 13, 2013, 12:10:25 PM »
That's sort of interesting.  You are an expert in risk management, yet you can ignore the 50% failure rate in marriages.  It appears that your 'moral views' is allowing you to ignore the 50% risk factor that you would normally be considering in your risk management training and experience.

Somehow that does not square when applying simple logic.  I doubt anyone has any issue with whatever you choose for yourself (prenup or no-prenuup).   Why are you so furious with people that have a different set of views?

I'm not an expert on risk management. I leave politics to the politicians.

As I mentioned above, I study trends and effects.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline TheTraveler

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #146 on: March 13, 2013, 12:22:12 PM »
so you just spent a week with her in istanbul?...
 
but you're going to wait until you get home to break up with her via phone/skype/sms?
 

Offline Paulie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #147 on: March 13, 2013, 12:25:08 PM »
I now know my intuition is alive and doing better than I ever expected.  Seriously, I needed a reality check, and an instinct check.  I know I can’t operate in this world alone.  I think when I went into this, I didn’t have any idea of what I would find or would find me.  In the past I have tolerated bad behavior.  But then again, I am no angel either. 

However, with Ms. Istanbul,  I was very sweet, kind, giving, loving and to much of an extent more generous then ever.  I don’t thing I encouraged her bad behavior;  I think she sensed my generosity early on and like a ‘frog in a pot of cold water, she turned up the heat and I started adjusting my temperature.”  I am glad I jumped out before I was completely cooked. 

And yes, I finally realized that her bad behavior far outweighed the love she had for me – real or not.  I did find myself excusing her bad behavior on many occasions and the discomfort level became more than I could bear. 

I like the idea of writing her based on my most recent posts.  I am not sure what that would accomplish versus just saying “You are right honey, we ARE on a different page.  In fact we are in different books.”  If she asks me why, I would give her an explanation.  But I sense she knows why. 
I now believe that her ex-husband (who is still begging for her to let him back) waited on her hand and foot,  lost himself in the process and eventually lost until he was broke.  She strikes me as a ‘man eater.” 
 
So for those of you who think I should continue on because there are RW who would be different, where do I start?  What suggestions do you have? 

Online Faux Pas

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #148 on: March 13, 2013, 12:31:48 PM »
I am not trying to give you a hard time.  We might even be in agreement, however your hostility to the topic makes it difficult to explore your convictions.
I gave you a very simple scenario to respond to and hoped to receive a simple answer without all the moral additions.
If I read your response correctly, we might be in agreement.

You stated that of course you would protect business interests and inheritance that was received prior to marriage.
Loosly translated, this means that you would protect these pre-marital assets from a divorce.
If this is the case, we are in agreement!

You comments that appear to be directed about wealth accumulated after marriage belong to both of you.  We also agree on that.  It is already covered by laws in the community property states and a prenup would be unnecessary to address these assets.

I understand your moral position that marriage is supposed to be built on love and we should enter into it without any consideration of it failing.  This is the common way most people (particularly young) enter into their first marriage (including mine).  Both parties enter into the marriage with rose colored glasses and have no thoughts of failure.  Neither party has any thoughts of a divorce or that either party could become someone that would rather destroy the families community property rather than see the other spouse receive the 50/50 split that he/she is entitled to in a divorce.

I think most people enter into their first marriage with exactly the same beliefs and attitude you have.  It is only after a hostile divorce that they look back and realize how much of their life's labor went down the drain to lawyers.  You apparently do not have an appreciation for the fact that one of the parties (husband or wife) can become very hostile in a divorce and can completely destroy the family assets that both have earned over the years.  Those rose colored glasses you each wore when entering the marriage have vanished in a hostile divorce.  If you have not been in this position it is understandable that you do not understand why couples take a more businesslike approach to protect any pre-marital assets they own in a subsequent marriage.

If I read your response correctly, you would protect any business, inheritance, and significant assets you owned prior to entering a marriage.  That we agree on.
Wealth accumulated during the marriage are automatically equally owned by both parties, so a prenup is superfluous for this, as they will be shared 50/50.  I don't think we have any disagreement on this issue either.

calmissle
You are wrong on most fronts. I have no hostility toward the topic or prenups. I am a live and let live A-type personna. Whatever floats your boat is my approach. I make no moral judgments to those that desire prenups. I do however despise anyone's condescending remarks toward someone else's perceived lack of "substantial assets". ML's remarks were OTT. The idea that my or Ade's head is floating in the air full of fantasies because we are willing to put it on the line for the woman we love and choose to marry is a crock of shit. The idea that we couldn't comprehend the need for a prenup is bullshit and I do call bullshit where I see it.

I have been through a bitter divorce and I am all too familiar with it. You don't have to own pounds of gold bullion to feel the pain of a bitter divorce. Yes I entered my second marriage the same way I did the first and if I have a third, I'll do it the same way. All of my personal wealth is there for the taking. Whatever gets adjudicated I can live with, because quite frankly, it is just money and just stuff. Should my wife leave me broke and penniless, it won't be the first time I've been broke. I refuse to put money and possessions above my marriage. I would hope my choice for a wife felt the same way. If not, c'est la vie.

I'm not counting 50/50. We came together as one. What's mine is hers and vice-versa. Back to my point, my advice is, if you can't do this with your woman, don't marry her. It is that simple IMHO

Offline Paulie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #149 on: March 13, 2013, 12:33:53 PM »
so you just spent a week with her in istanbul?...
 
but you're going to wait until you get home to break up with her via phone/skype/sms?

I am on the plane...I am thinking...I tried rationalizing it away.  Now that I am away from it, I made the decision.  We had an emotional departure because it IS a love relationship.  This is very hard for me and I have to be careful of STRESS - I have heart disease and my life takes precedence over whether or not I should do this eye to eye or Skype to Skype. 

Shall I fly back to Istanbul or fly her to California?  Do you have any spare airline miles for a ticket? 

Look this isn't easy.  I tried six ways to Sunday to keep this going.  I gave her the benefit of the doubt more times than I should have. 

Believe me,  I thought there was a chance and that is what drove me here in the first place.  I thought maybe I was being too hard on the situation.  But thankfully there are many here who were really helpful. 

 

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