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Author Topic: Ukraine Can Win  (Read 72988 times)

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Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #150 on: March 02, 2015, 02:36:41 PM »

I didn't come here to address the "big picture." I noticed that members are largely ignoring Jay's rants so I decided to give him some of the attention that he craves and, in the process, express my opinion about the preposterous notion that Ukraine can win.


Perhaps Ukraine can win, if we apply Winston Churchill's famous words:
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."


Tom, the man is hopeless.


BTW, it's been a long time. Say hi to your lady for me.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #151 on: March 02, 2015, 03:23:12 PM »

I didn't come here to address the "big picture." I noticed that members are largely ignoring Jay's rants so I decided to give him some of the attention that he craves and, in the process, express my opinion about the preposterous notion that Ukraine can win.


Perhaps Ukraine can win, if we apply Winston Churchill's famous words:
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."

Speaking of which, how is that book coming?

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #152 on: March 02, 2015, 03:47:40 PM »

I didn't come here to address the "big picture." I noticed that members are largely ignoring Jay's rants so I decided to give him some of the attention that he craves and, in the process, express my opinion about the preposterous notion that Ukraine can win.


Perhaps Ukraine can win, if we apply Winston Churchill's famous words:
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."

Ukraine has already won.  It depends on what one believes constitutes a "win".
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 03:59:46 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #153 on: March 02, 2015, 04:00:44 PM »

Ukraine has already won.  It depends on what one believes constitutes a "win".


seems like we are halfway home then to the win/win.


Fathertime!

I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #154 on: March 02, 2015, 04:07:17 PM »
I don't think there can be a "win win".
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Photo Guy

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #155 on: March 02, 2015, 07:01:29 PM »
Russian elites send their kids to Universities in the West.
That says it all. Most people, and most Ukrainians prefer Western ideologies, that include an assortment of freedoms, a rejection of corruption, fair elections, and... most people/most Ukrainians see the Soviet Union as an old dinosaur, that implements a power based on intimidation and a corrupt system of pay-offs. Will Russians ever tire of a system that completely shuns Christian ideals? Corruption can be found in all societies, but many societies realize that a democratic system combats corruption, by removing the perpetrators.

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #156 on: March 02, 2015, 07:04:25 PM »
Russian elites send their kids to Universities in the West.

Exactly.

Who is buried in these secret cemeteries?




Not the Kremlin kids

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #157 on: March 02, 2015, 07:35:54 PM »
I don't think there can be a "win win".


That would depend on what one believes constitutes a 'win'. 


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #158 on: March 03, 2015, 07:18:23 AM »
Ew


You have a dirty mind there.


But, what else should I expect?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #159 on: March 03, 2015, 07:21:46 AM »

Tom, the man is hopeless.


BTW, it's been a long time. Say hi to your lady for me.


Yep. I know.

It's terrible that real life interferes with what's really important: the virtual world.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 07:41:47 AM by AnonMod »

Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #160 on: March 03, 2015, 07:40:26 AM »
Russian elites send their kids to Universities in the West.
That says it all. Most people, and most Ukrainians prefer Western ideologies, that include an assortment of freedoms, a rejection of corruption, fair elections, and... most people/most Ukrainians see the Soviet Union as an old dinosaur, that implements a power based on intimidation and a corrupt system of pay-offs. Will Russians ever tire of a system that completely shuns Christian ideals? Corruption can be found in all societies, but many societies realize that a democratic system combats corruption, by removing the perpetrators.

With all due respect, Photo Guy,

Most Russians I know have strong Christian ideals.  Their government, while rife with corruption, is all most of them have known and they feel secure in it.  I think that is the point that many of us Westerners do not understand.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #161 on: March 03, 2015, 10:42:23 AM »
Where is it OK to lie in the good book?

Online Faux Pas

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #162 on: March 03, 2015, 11:03:47 AM »
With all due respect, Photo Guy,

Most Russians I know have strong Christian ideals.  Their government, while rife with corruption, is all most of them have known and they feel secure in it.  I think that is the point that many of us Westerners do not understand.

I think your other analogy on the Home team was better

Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #163 on: March 03, 2015, 11:24:45 AM »
I didn't say that they practiced the Christian faith.  But the Russians I know, not in the Federal Cities, have very strong ideals that mirror a lot of what Christianity teaches.  I am constantly reminded when visiting in Russia that these people live like we did in my home State of Wisconsin, back in the 70s.  (That's as far back as I remember.)
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Online Faux Pas

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #164 on: March 03, 2015, 11:38:54 AM »
I didn't say that they practiced the Christian faith.  But the Russians I know, not in the Federal Cities, have very strong ideals that mirror a lot of what Christianity teaches.  I am constantly reminded when visiting in Russia that these people live like we did in my home State of Wisconsin, back in the 70s.  (That's as far back as I remember.)

I would say it is a very real sense of right and wrong in their personal lives and most I know practice it. Outside of the personal sphere of influence many are filled with apathy

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #165 on: March 03, 2015, 06:35:35 PM »
I didn't say that they practiced the Christian faith.  But the Russians I know, not in the Federal Cities, have very strong ideals that mirror a lot of what Christianity teaches.  I am constantly reminded when visiting in Russia that these people live like we did in my home State of Wisconsin, back in the 70s.  (That's as far back as I remember.)

You have been there and I haven't.  I defer to your superior experience.  I do remember the thousands and thousands of apolitical and nonpolitical Russians in the streets in 2012 protesting the farce that was the Russian election ritual.  I remember we did NOTHING to help those good people.  I think we sent Ambassdor McFaul so not quite nothing more like next to nothing or worse than nothing.

I have to remind myself that not every Russian is a Novorossiya scum bag (worse than the Muslims IMHO) but if God would not destroy Sodom and Gormorrah for the sake of 10 honest men, perhaps we should exercise similar restraint.  After all it is Lent.  Easter is coming.

Russia gave us Aleksandr l. Solzhenitsyn and so many great souls . . .

Its just a sad state of affairs.  I spoke to my Father this evening.  I told him that I always lamented the corruption and wonton degeneration of his generation, only to grow old and see my generation exceed the previous generation in evil and incompetence.

In times like these, when there is nothing you can do, all I do is pray.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #166 on: March 04, 2015, 02:59:26 AM »

Jay's math:    6000-8000 government troops in Debaltseve, minus a few hundred prisoners, minus a handful of dead (according to Poroshenko) = < 2500 who made it out


Even if we use the low estimate of 6000, more than 3000 government soldiers are unaccounted for. I'd love to hear your explanation of how this was a smaller disaster than Ilovaisk.

Credible figures-- certainly far more so than yours!
This was at a briefing in. about. Spokesman of Staff Vladislav Seleznev, writes UNIAN . "During a routine operation for the removal of about three thousand troops of the anti-terrorist operations bridgehead area Debaltsevo Ukraine has lost 19 soldiers. The fate of 12 soldiers still to be confirmed," - he said.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ato/u-genshtabi-oprilyudnili-kilkist-zagiblih-pid-chas-vihodu-z-debalcevogo-biyciv-413168.html


Feel free to explain to us all at anytime how sanctions will not hurt Russia--or do you deny that you said that?
Or tell us about the impersive Russian economy that could not be touched as it's exports were so strong!! You want to deny that too? !!
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #167 on: March 04, 2015, 03:14:02 PM »

Russia gave us Aleksandr l. Solzhenitsyn and so many great souls . . .



Solzhenitsyn was nothing more than a Russian revanchist. I don't understand your love affair with him.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #168 on: March 04, 2015, 04:07:16 PM »
Read his books.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #169 on: March 04, 2015, 05:07:45 PM »
One again today an interesting idea being written about in wider media.  A few credible stats for the recalcerints and those who persist in their ignorance  and denial of reality.Ironically-- the mention of the "crowing" of Putin  is a word I would use in relation to the blind here on forums that persist in excusing the  Russian invasion,and see every Ukrainian setback as a Russian victory.

A Stalemate Ukraine Can Win

Ukraine’s military will never be strong enough to beat Russia outright. But it doesn’t have to be.
The crowing began before the battle of Debaltseve had even concluded. During the cease-fire negotiations in Minsk, Vladimir Putin reportedly boasted that 500 Ukrainian soldiers would be killed and 2,000 taken prisoner. After the Ukrainians had withdrawn, he taunted them by saying that they had been defeated by “yesterday’s tractor drivers.” Perhaps inevitably, Western media reports picked up on the irresistible alliteration and began referring to the “Debaltseve debacle.”

In contrast, Ukrainian government officials claimed that the withdrawal had been planned and orderly. Some Ukrainian soldiers and analysts disagreed; others substantiated Kiev’s claims. One policymaker even suggested that Debaltseve was a win, calling it “a colossal signal of Russia’s impending failure.” The truth lay in between. Kiev had in fact planned and, to a large degree, effected an orderly withdrawal. The Ukrainians had fought hard and well, apparently inflicting high casualties on the Russians and their proxies. Reliable Ukrainian sources estimate that, in the month before the Ukrainian army withdrew, Ukraine had up to 260 dead or missing soldiers, while Russia lost 868, for a “kill ratio” of about 1 to 3. In short, for the Ukrainians, Debaltseve was anything but a rout.In short, for the Ukrainians, Debaltseve was anything but a rout
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/03/04/a-stalemate-ukraine-can-win-russia-war-donetsk-donbass/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=%2AEditors%20Picks&utm_campaign=2015_EditorsPicks_PROMO_3_TAMU_Bush_School


SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Gator

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #170 on: March 04, 2015, 05:29:21 PM »

Solzhenitsyn was nothing more than a Russian revanchist. I don't understand your love affair with him.

I had to look that one up in the dictionary.  Impressed that you had that word floating in your mind.  Amazing what you poison guys know! 

Revanchism would define Putin as well.   


Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #171 on: March 04, 2015, 05:30:32 PM »
I had to look that one up in the dictionary.  Impressed that you had that word floating in your mind.  Amazing what you poison guys know! 

Revanchism would define Putin as well.


You learn something new everyday.  ;D
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #172 on: March 04, 2015, 06:21:37 PM »

You learn something new everyday.  ;D

Slander.

If you read Solzhenitsyn, you would not be a socialist

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #173 on: March 04, 2015, 06:30:20 PM »
In contrast, Ukrainian government officials claimed that the withdrawal had been planned and orderly. Some Many Ukrainian soldiers and analysts disagreed; others substantiated Kiev’s claims.

I think the latter is a bit closer to the truth, from what I saw.  No matter how "planned" it may have been, I haven't yet seen any videos of the homecoming soldiers looking anything but totally stuffed, and relieved to be out of there.  All of the interviews with soldiers that I've seen refer to a wholesale retreat.

One policymaker even suggested that Debaltseve was a win, calling it “a colossal signal of Russia’s impending failure.”

That's carrying optimism just a bit too far.

The truth lay in between. Kiev had in fact planned and, to a large degree, effected an orderly withdrawal...Debaltseve was anything but a rout.

Much as I would like to believe otherwise, Debaltseve and its inhabitants, including the Ukrainian soldiers, appeared to be only days away from being obliterated.  The only thing which appeared to have saved the troops was the withdrawal - although the fighting continued, the separatists and Russian army could hardly raze the town when Putin was basically trumpeting "Peace in our time!"

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #174 on: March 04, 2015, 07:03:06 PM »

Yep. I know.

It's terrible that real life interferes with what's really important: the virtual world.

How is the book coming along?  Did you ever find a likable protagonist?  You know author to author, if you ever need help with writing, I am sure you can find a seminar that fits your budget.

 

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