Top Universities in USA

[ML]

Quote from: jone on Yesterday at 11:43:52 PM
"One metric.   Big deal.  No matter how many times you may say so, Rice is NOT an Ivy League School.   One metric about my alma mater is that it creates more CEOs in the country than any other university.   It has a great engineering program.   But that does not make the school better than CalTech or MIT.   And I would not be so demented as to say so.   If someone were to ask me what the best school in the South is, I would probably say Duke.   Not because of the Basketball program, but because it has a tremendous medical school.   And my nephews went to UNC.   So that is a tough pill to swallow for me.   

The top rated schools in our country - for prestige and education probably are Stanford and the Ivies.  For engineering and scientific programs, MIT (you're welcome Pitbull) and CalTech.   Of the public schools, I'd probably choose Michigan.  And that is also a tough pill to swallow as I went to Wisconsin."

- - - - - - - - -

First, I don't see any harm in referring to a school as 'Ivy League like' and there are a few of them.

Second, I would agree with most of what Jon posted above.

In my view, there are several public and private schools that are just as good as most Ivy schools.

Full disclosure:  I have degrees from two of the schools noted below.

Top Public:
University of California Los Angeles
University of California Berkeley
University of Michigan
University of Texas
University of Virginia

Top Private:
MIT
CalTech
Stanford
Carnegie Mellon
University of Chicago
Duke
Vanderbilt
Rice
Univ of Southern California
Northwestern
Johns Hopkins

Another very important factor for individual students is the majors available.
Does no good to select a top name school if they are not strong in the desired major . . . or don't even have that major.
Of course a counter argument (that I somewhat agree with) is that a person should get a good general education at undergrad level, and then focus on major for grad degrees.
In fact, I will recommend to my grandchildren that in undergrad they focus on:
Math, Statistics, English, Speech, Argumentation, Logic, Computers, Music Appreciation, Art Appreciation, Golf or Tennis (skip all team sports).
Top scores in the above will get them into top Law schools.
If they are leaning toward business then throw in a couple of accounting courses and a couple of economics but wait for MBA to go heavily into business courses.  High scores in Math, Stat and Computers will get them into top MBA programs.
If leaning toward medicine, then throw in some biology and chemistry.
If leaning toward engineering . . . well then there isn't much choice other than a straight undergrad Engineering program.

One last viewpoint; and this is what I have advised to dozens of International students that I have talked to in their home countries.
You can't go wrong by choosing ANY Big Ten school.
This cannot (the ANY) be said of any other 'conference.'

[Faux Pas]

One last viewpoint; and this is what I have advised to dozens of International students that I have talked to in their home countries.
You can't go wrong by choosing ANY Big Ten school.
This cannot (the ANY) be said of any other 'conference.'

Ah bullshit. Most any school in the SEC can meet or exceed the education or degree in any Big 10 school plus your SEC school will also be an athletic champion in most sports. The SEC, it just means more

 

[GQBlues]

Ah bullshit. Most any school in the SEC can meet or exceed the education or degree in any Big 10 school plus your SEC school will also be an athletic champion in most sports. The SEC, it just means more

 

 

PAC-12! Can't touch that, baby! We ain't chopped liver out west, you know....

As for sports, slamdunk! Had UCLA been a 'country', it'd rank 4th in the world in Olympic medals (ex). 

[BdHvA]

In fact, I will recommend to my grandchildren that in undergrad they focus on:
Math, Statistics, English, Speech, Argumentation, Logic, Computers, Music Appreciation, Art Appreciation, Golf or Tennis (skip all team sports).

Curious why are you opposed to team sports?

[pitbull]

Quote from: jone on Yesterday at 11:43:52 PM
"One metric.   Big deal.  No matter how many times you may say so, Rice is NOT an Ivy League School.   One metric about my alma mater is that it creates more CEOs in the country than any other university.   It has a great engineering program.   But that does not make the school better than CalTech or MIT.   And I would not be so demented as to say so.   If someone were to ask me what the best school in the South is, I would probably say Duke.   Not because of the Basketball program, but because it has a tremendous medical school.   And my nephews went to UNC.   So that is a tough pill to swallow for me.   

The top rated schools in our country - for prestige and education probably are Stanford and the Ivies.  For engineering and scientific programs, MIT (you're welcome Pitbull) and CalTech.   Of the public schools, I'd probably choose Michigan.  And that is also a tough pill to swallow as I went to Wisconsin."

- - - - - - - - -

First, I don't see any harm in referring to a school as 'Ivy League like' and there are a few of them.

Second, I would agree with most of what Jon posted above.

In my view, there are several public and private schools that are just as good as most Ivy schools.

Full disclosure:  I have degrees from two of the schools noted below.

Top Public:
University of California Los Angeles
University of California Berkeley
University of Michigan
University of Texas
University of Virginia

Top Private:
MIT
CalTech
Stanford
Carnegie Mellon
University of Chicago
Duke
Vanderbilt
Rice
Univ of Southern California
Northwestern
Johns Hopkins

Another very important factor for individual students is the majors available.
Does no good to select a top name school if they are not strong in the desired major . . . or don't even have that major.
Of course a counter argument (that I somewhat agree with) is that a person should get a good general education at undergrad level, and then focus on major for grad degrees.
In fact, I will recommend to my grandchildren that in undergrad they focus on:
Math, Statistics, English, Speech, Argumentation, Logic, Computers, Music Appreciation, Art Appreciation, Golf or Tennis (skip all team sports).
Top scores in the above will get them into top Law schools.
If they are leaning toward business then throw in a couple of accounting courses and a couple of economics but wait for MBA to go heavily into business courses.  High scores in Math, Stat and Computers will get them into top MBA programs.
If leaning toward medicine, then throw in some biology and chemistry.
If leaning toward engineering . . . well then there isn't much choice other than a straight undergrad Engineering program.

One last viewpoint; and this is what I have advised to dozens of International students that I have talked to in their home countries.
You can't go wrong by choosing ANY Big Ten school.
This cannot (the ANY) be said of any other 'conference.'

Where is Harvard in your top private list? (

[ML]

Where is Harvard in your top private list? (

You need to carefully read the words in my posting again.

[GQBlues]

Can we all at least agree, regardless of inference, and while it is a fine university, Rice is not an Ivy League school?

[BillyB]

Ivy League has won 60  football championships which is more than the SEC and Big 10 combined.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/43028-bcs-conferences-who-has-the-most-national-championships-of-all-time

Pac-12 has the most sports championships overall with 526 which is more than 200 more than 2nd place Big 10. For 14 years straight, Pac-12 has won the most championships. Pac-12 is correct when they advertise they are the conference of champions.

http://pac-12.com/article/2019/06/27/pac-12-winningest-conference-14th-year-row

[jone]

PAC-12! Can't touch that, baby! We ain't chopped liver out west, you know....

As for sports, slamdunk! Had UCLA been a 'country', it'd rank 4th in the world in Olympic medals (ex). 

IMO the Pac 12 has the best looking cheerleaders, too.

[ML]

Hey fellas . . . I started this thread obviously about top academic universities.

Sports programs in no way reflect academic achievements.

Please start another thread on that.

[ML]

Curious why are you opposed to team sports?

1) There can be serious and minor injuries which last a lifetime.
2) You cannot participate as you age.
3) Those activities do not help your professional career as can golf and tennis.

[JayH]

Can we all at least agree, regardless of inference, and while it is a fine university, Rice is not an Ivy League school?

That was never disputed ~

[krimster2]

actually cobber, I disputed it...
and ya know what?
my daughter is going to an ivy league like school, and only a complete and utter fool would dispute that claim...
so feel free to do so...
you CLEARLY are what you are after all...

[BillyB]

Pac-12 eats Rice for breakfast! 

[jone]

Fine school that Rice may be, the number of Valedictorians and exemplary students turned away from Ivy League schools outmatch all other Universities, combined.   Rice is not an Ivy League type school.   On the West Coast it is not even spoken of.   And many East Coast Universities are.   

Amherst, Georgetown, Tufts, Johns Hopkins, Swarthmore, University of Virginia - all of these are regularly spoken of.  Middlebury for languages - all of these are extraordinary universities.   But NONE of them are Ivy like.   

To say that Rice is better than Johns Hopkins or Georgetown is simply not true.  And, as I've said previously on this forum, we just went through all of this a couple of years ago, meeting with many of the college recruiters, Rice is not even heard of on the West Coast.   There is only one college in the country that matches up with the Ivys.   And that is Stanford.     

Now, I will be the first to agree that Harvard, Yale and Princeton (and possibly Wharton at Penn) are a bit higher in stature than the other Ivy League schools.   Maybe Columbia too.   But the drift is that Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, etc. all turn away the best of the best.   So when a little 17 year old Valedictorian from Pierre, South Dakota, cries her eyes out because she got turned away from Rice, then you can make your claim.   Until then, all other metrics fall short.

[krimster2]

if I spend over $60,00 per year on something, then I can call it WTF I want!!!!
and when YOU have a kid in college then YOU can argue with ME about it...
until then fuhgetaboutit...

[jone]

if I spend over $60,00 per year on something, then I can call it WTF I want!!!!
and when YOU have a kid in college then YOU can argue with ME about it...
until then fuhgetaboutit...

Just because you call a swan a duck does not make it a duck.  My 'kids' just finished college.   So I know the drill.   And it wasn't cheap.

[krimster2]

vhy a duck? vhy a no chicken?

[jone]

I chose my words carefully.  Some of us are just a bit more subtle in what we post or brag about.

[krimster2]

a bit...

[JayH]

IMO the Pac 12 has the best looking cheerleaders, too.

Someone in photo you know?

[Gator]

Hey fellas . . . I started this thread obviously about top academic universities.

Sports programs in no way reflect academic achievements.

You used the term "Ivy League," a term whose first official use was not for academics but for organized collegiate sports.  However, the term now is used more for the context of academics, not sports.

Ivy League Eight

The eight members of the Ivy League are indeed elite private universities located in Northeastern US, with small enrollments (undergraduate students number less than 9,000 at 6 of the 8 schools), large endowments  (Harvard $37 billion),  small teacher::student ratio, etc.


Of the nine colleges established in the American colonial era (prior to 1776), seven are Ivy League universities.  The two not included are Rutgers and William & Mary, both of whom  became public institutions.  The oldest Ivy League school is Harvard, founded in 1636.


Little Ivies

Many contend there are even better liberal arts universities in the Northeast, almost as old but just as small in number of students and as large in size of their endowment.  Most prominent are:

            - Amherst College
            - Wesleyan University
            - Williams College
            - Bowdoin College

Others include Bucknell, Colgate, Hamilton, Lafayette, Colby, Union, Swarthmore, etc.  These gained much of their prominence from being schools for the descendants of old money.   


Seven Sisters

Female students were not admitted to the Ivy League schools until well into the 1930s.   Female students wanting a private education similar to the Ivy League schools, attended the "Seven Sisters," fine institutions associated with the Ivy League men's colleges.   These are:

     
     -  Barnard
     -  Smith
     -  Mount Holyoke
     -  Vassar
     -  Bryn Mawr
     -  Wellesley
     -  Radcliffe

Many assert they are just as elite and distinguished as the Ivy League schools.   Having dated  students and graduates from some of these institutions, I can say most ran circles around me and my Southern ways.

Southern Ivies

It is widely recognized that one can earn a superb education at one of these private institutions in the South:  SMU, Emory, Rice, Duke, Tulane, Davidson, Sewanee, Washington and Lee, etc. 

The most important variable in education is the individual student. 

I went to NC State because it was the best that my parents and I could afford. As freshmen, we heard about UVa, as if it were a class above - Thomas Jefferson and all that prominence of FFV gentry.   I finally met a UVa student, who soon passed out on our fraternity floor.  We checked out the labels of his soiled clothing and shoes, and discovered he wore what we were wearing.    A class difference?  Bullshit. 

Later I obtained a Master's from the Ivy League's Cornell University on a full boat scholarship that paid me more than what some of my NC State fellow graduates were making at their first job.   
         

[ML]

You used the term "Ivy League," a term whose first official use was not for academics but for organized collegiate sports.  However, the term now is used more for the context of academics, not sports.

Ivy League Eight

The eight members of the Ivy League are indeed elite private universities located in Northeastern US, with small enrollments (undergraduate students number less than 9,000 at 6 of the 8 schools), large endowments  (Harvard $37 billion),  small teacher::student ratio, etc.


Of the nine colleges established in the American colonial era (prior to 1776), seven are Ivy League universities.  The two not included are Rutgers and William & Mary, both of whom  became public institutions.  The oldest Ivy League school is Harvard, founded in 1636.


Little Ivies

Many contend there are even better liberal arts universities in the Northeast, almost as old but just as small in number of students and as large in size of their endowment.  Most prominent are:

            - Amherst College
            - Wesleyan University
            - Williams College
            - Bowdoin College

Others include Bucknell, Colgate, Hamilton, Lafayette, Colby, Union, Swarthmore, etc.  These gained much of their prominence from being schools for the descendants of old money.   


Seven Sisters

Female students were not admitted to the Ivy League schools until well into the 1930s.   Female students wanting a private education similar to the Ivy League schools, attended the "Seven Sisters," fine institutions associated with the Ivy League men's colleges.   These are:

     
     -  Barnard
     -  Smith
     -  Mount Holyoke
     -  Vassar
     -  Bryn Mawr
     -  Wellesley
     -  Radcliffe

Many assert they are just as elite and distinguished as the Ivy League schools.   Having dated  students and graduates from some of these institutions, I can say most ran circles around me and my Southern ways.

Southern Ivies

It is widely recognized that one can earn a superb education at one of these private institutions in the South:  SMU, Emory, Rice, Duke, Tulane, Davidson, Sewanee, Washington and Lee, etc. 

The most important variable in education is the individual student. 

I went to NC State because it was the best that my parents and I could afford. As freshmen, we heard about UVa, as if it were a class above - Thomas Jefferson and all that prominence of FFV gentry.   I finally met a UVa student, who soon passed out on our fraternity floor.  We checked out the labels of his soiled clothing and shoes, and discovered he wore what we were wearing.    A class difference?  Bullshit. 

Later I obtained a Master's from the Ivy League's Cornell University on a full boat scholarship that paid me more than what some of my NC State fellow graduates were making at their first job.   
         

Excellent and extensive post.  Thanks Gator

[krimster2]

“Little Ivies”
“Southern Ivies”

This idiomatic term “Ivy League” has come to mean more than just the original 8 universities, and that the word as seen in the above "Ivies" is used as a universal descriptor meaning “high quality”...
and that this change to the US lexicon happened about 50 years ago...
sorry, you weren't put on the CC: list for the memo, probably cuz you're in the outback which is after-all NOT famous for it's knowledge on US culture, language, lexicography, etc...

OTOH, I have physically been present at almost every Ivy League campus, Princeton being my favorite,
so just based on my travels alone, much more aware than you of their identities...

I never thought that the Universities established in colonial time more than 1,000 miles away were magically transported to Texas just so my daughter wouldn’t have to commute so far...

[Steamer]

This idiomatic term “Ivy League” has come to mean more than just the original 8 universities, and that the word as seen in the above "Ivies" is used as a universal descriptor meaning “high quality”...

Excuse my ignorance but I always thought that Ivy league meant the original 4 universities in the US hence the term 'IV' league.

[krimster2]

that's actually a myth spread by the big 4, but the term was used decades before that myth was concocted...
anyone who has been in the North Eastern USA knows about the ivy clinging to all the old buildings...
and that's where the name originates

here's an example of eastern ivy from my parent's house in Arlington, Virginia from many decades ago...
sadly, a few years ago, I had to cut back most of this ivy to repaint this house after my mother died who unfortunately liked the ivy too much to EVER trim it...
my bedroom window was on the far right...
I currently rent it to a law firm...
and will sell it some day as I don't want to live there again...

[Gator]

From July 2018, "The Definitive Guide to College."

CNBC (the No. 1 business news cable channel) ranked American colleges according to the cost to attend vs. the median  salary of graduates.   The article reported the top 25 public and top 25 private universities that "Pay Off the Most."

http://tinyurl.com/y2hcac2e

Top 5 private colleges

Stanford
Princeton
Chicago
Cal Tech
Harvard

Other Ivies:  Yale 6th, Columbia 7th, Dartmouth 13th, Penn 17th, Brown 20th.  My fellow  Cornellians were unpaid slackers,   e. g., one of my Greek fraternity brothers became national president of the leftist and now extinct SDS (Students for a Democratic Society).   

Note to Krimster -  Rice ranked 15th.       

Top 5 public colleges

Washington (Seattle)
Washington (Bothel)
Massachusetts Maritime Academy`
Michigan
Georgia Tech

My university NC State ranked 22nd, proudly ahead of California Berkeley (25th).

Of the 50-60  brothers in my Greek fraternity when I attended, two made the Forbes 500  top CEO compensation (one now having a new campus building named for him).   A third brother with a private company did even better, enough to have the high-rise VIP towers at the football stadium named for him.    I still stay in touch, and some brothers from decades later have been very successful in business. 


A few of the brief descriptions of each university are interesting statements about education.

 

  Haverford’s liberal arts curriculum requires that students study in areas such as meaning, interpretation and creative expression or analysis and the social world: individuals, institutions and cultures.

  Wesleyan’s flexible curriculum requires that students study each of four “competencies” — mapping (navigating complex environments), expressing (writing and communication), mining (empirical analysis and interpretation) and engaging (negotiating cultural contexts).

   [Pomona] students take at least one course in each of six areas: criticism, analysis and contextual study of works of the human imagination; social institutions and human behavior; history, values, ethics and cultural studies; physical and biological sciences; mathematical reasoning; and creation and performance of works of art and literature.

[Gator]

Excuse my ignorance but I always thought that Ivy league meant the original 4 universities in the US hence the term 'IV' league.

From Wiki: 

"A common folk etymology attributes the name to the Roman numeral for four (IV), asserting that there was such a sports league originally with four members. The Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins helped to perpetuate this belief. The supposed "IV League" was formed over a century ago and consisted of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and a fourth school that varies depending on who is telling the story."

[2tallbill]

From Wiki: 

"A common folk etymology attributes the name to the Roman numeral for four (IV), asserting that there was such a sports league originally with four members. The Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins helped to perpetuate this belief. The supposed "IV League" was formed over a century ago and consisted of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and a fourth school that varies depending on who is telling the story."

Origins of the term ‘Ivy League’ remain mysterious
http://badgerherald.com/news/2003/03/03/origins-of-the-term/

[krimster2]

Rice Univ main advantage for us is merely geographic....
90 minute car ride vrs 7 hour airport excursion....
it means my daughter will be able to come home more often than if she lives 1,200+ miles away...

Rice's biology dept is in the top 10, and this is my daughter's main focus...
my youngest is a math/computer wiz and I hope follow her older sister to Rice...
both my children took a heavy course load at the local community college (a mile away!) while in high school
my oldest had 2 year of college credit when she graduated high school, and so will my youngest when she graduates high school in one more year...
my daughters have both agreed to spend the next two summers with me and my wife in Moscow before they take off and start living their own lives as independent adults...
so I intend to make the most out of that time...

[jone]

Origins of the term ‘Ivy League’ remain mysterious
http://badgerherald.com/news/2003/03/03/origins-of-the-term/

Wow.  Nice article from my Alma Mater.  The Badger Herald is our on-campus newspaper.   

The true test that sets the Ivy League Schools apart is the number and quality of applicants who are turned down.   While my son attended a university that Gator had on his 'Southern Ivies' list, Davidson, most of the attendees who weren't from rich Southern families were students who were turned down by the Ivy League schools.  (My son's first year in school was at Oxford.)  My son was turned down at Harvard as were many of his cohorts on campus.  Like Krimster, we actually attended the on school visits to Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Columbia.  When he was offered at Oxford, we went there.  He also had a full academic scholarship offer to attend Cal, here on the West Coast.  He was offered because he is a polyglot, fluent in six languages and knowing two more.  When he was at Oxford, he studied linguistics and Russian - even though he no longer considers Russian a language he is fluent in.   (He's a lot better at it than I am.)

I asked him, the other night, where Rice fit into the mix.  He mentioned how impressed he was with the Medical Program at Rice and the integration with some of the local hospitals.  If that is Krimster's daughter's area of study, it will serve her well.

As Gator stated, Rice fits in with a number of quality Southern Universities.   His list was pretty inclusive of the schools that I am aware of.

But with the nature of the article that Bill posted, I still believe that the quality of these Ivy League universities is measured by the quality of the applicants who are turned down.    That is not to say that other universities do not offer great educations.   

These days the Ivy League Schools have a self-imposed mandate for diversity.   And said mandate is heavily abused, especially by those who have very little of the diversification of race which is favored for admission.   I am aware of one student who received admission to Harvard because his Great Grandmother was from the US Virgin Islands.   It should be also pointed out that the Universities also choose diversity when hiring professors.  When hired by Harvard, the University issued a press release welcoming the Native American professor Elizabeth Warren in 1996.

http://tinyurl.com/y22gy8y7

So, for students not of diversity (or who didn't lie about their diversity like Warren did) it is increasingly harder to get into an Ivy League School.   For example, from my son's graduating class, two students did get into Harvard who were Black, while students with higher GPAs with more activities/sports/AP Courses did not. 

My son, at the time, wrote a tongue-in-cheek long essay about the experience called 'Losing Ivies'.  It was a hit with the Millennial group he hangs with.  It lampooned the entire admissions process.

While it could be said that many schools offer an Ivy Leauge (like) education, the extreme competition and the quality of students whose applications are rejected, set the Ivy League schools apart. 

While he doesn't have to respond, Krimster mentioned that he visited the Ivy League campuses.   I am curious to know how many of the Ivy League schools his daughter applied to and how many she was accepted at.

[jone]

Rice Univ main advantage for us is merely geographic....
90 minute car ride vrs 7 hour airport excursion....
it means my daughter will be able to come home more often then if she lives 1,200+ miles away...

Rice's biology dept is in the top 10, and this is my daughter's main focus...
my youngest is a math/computer wiz and I hope follow her older sister to Rice...
both my children took a heavy course load at the local community college (a mile away!) while in high school
my oldest had 2 year of college credit when she graduated high school, and so will my youngest when she graduates high school in one more year...
my daughters have both agreed to spend the next two summers with me and my wife in Moscow before they take off and start living their own lives as independent adults...
so I intend to make the most out of that time...

Smartest thing you've said on the forum since I can remember.   Treasure the time before your children are gone.  In a blink they are adults, living their own lives and the time you have to spend with them is limited by the great demands put on them by their friends, work and society.

[jone]

From July 2018, "The Definitive Guide to College."

CNBC (the No. 1 business news cable channel) ranked American colleges according to the cost to attend vs. the median  salary of graduates.   The article reported the top 25 public and top 25 private universities that "Pay Off the Most."

http://tinyurl.com/y2hcac2e

Top 5 private colleges

Stanford
Princeton
Chicago
Cal Tech
Harvard

Other Ivies:  Yale 6th, Columbia 7th, Dartmouth 13th, Penn 17th, Brown 20th.  My fellow  Cornellians were unpaid slackers,   e. g., one of my Greek fraternity brothers became national president of the leftist and now extinct SDS (Students for a Democratic Society).   

Note to Krimster -  Rice ranked 15th.       

Top 5 public colleges

Washington (Seattle)
Washington (Bothel)
Massachusetts Maritime Academy`
Michigan
Georgia Tech

My university NC State ranked 22nd, proudly ahead of California Berkeley (25th).

Of the 50-60  brothers in my Greek fraternity when I attended, two made the Forbes 500  top CEO compensation (one now having a new campus building named for him).   A third brother with a private company did even better, enough to have the high-rise VIP towers at the football stadium named for him.    I still stay in touch, and some brothers from decades later have been very successful in business. 


A few of the brief descriptions of each university are interesting statements about education.

So, if you live in Washington State, you get a subsidized education.   That's what a gathered from your list.

[Gator]

So, if you live in Washington State, you get a subsidized education.   That's what a gathered from your list.

Do not be fooled by your understanding of sticker prices for attending different colleges.  The study factored grants and scholarships.  And if a university is stressing diversity of students, many would require financial assistance to attend. 

Compare No. 1 Stanford in the private category with Washington, No. 1 in public category.   

Stanford

Average net cost for family income in the $48,001-$75,000 range: $4,061
Salary average, early and mid career: $109,800

Washington

Average net cost (income $48,001-$75,000): $8,984
Salary average, early and mid career: $85,850


Evidently Stanford had much more financial assistance in the form of  scholarships, etc. making the cost of attending less than half that of the public Univ of Washington.

Of note,  the study did not account for cost of housing, food, etc. a major cost that parents certainly know about.    Also, the study based the results on public universities for in-state students, who would pay lower tuition than out-of-state students.

So the top private schools seemingly discriminate against white students in admittance and probably  in financial assistance too.  As a couple of you stated, the best universities are distinguished by  the quality of the applicants who not accepted for admission. 

My son graduated from USC (SoCal) Film School, recognized as top film school in the country.  He felt out of place being male, straight and white. 

[Gator]

Admission stats for Ivy League:


              Applicants  Admission Rate
Brown   35,438        7.2%
Columbia   40,203        5.5%
Cornell   51,328         10.3%
Dartmouth   22,033        8.7%
Harvard   42,749        4.6%
Penn           44,482        8.4%
Princeton   35,370        5.5%
Yale           35,306        6.3%

[jone]

Gator,

Not only do you need to take in the stats of rejection but the quality of the students who are rejected.   This isn't Risky Business, where, with a 'C' average you can get your admissions counselor laid and get into Princeton.  The cost of applying is not inexpensive and, so, the only people who apply to these schools think that they have a reasonable chance of getting in.  We're talking the best of the best of the best.

When my son applied, he had just come off an internship in Russia and was 'recommended' by a number of prominent alums.  He also had an athletic angle, having played on a Junior Olympics Water Polo Program that was one of the three top in the country (he did not really want to play water polo in college).   I remember the commentary done by the head of Admissions at Harvard because he referenced my son, specifically, as being a go-getter - having worked in a bank and hotel in Russia.

My son's best friend in college came from a prominent Harvard Alum family.  She was rejected from Harvard as well and had better credentials than my son did.    She became the Valedictorian of her Davidson class.  The simple fact is that she had no diversification.   

[Gator]

The simple fact is that she had no diversification.

And she is a female applicant.  I guess your son, although qualified, never had a real chance.  Davidson is a superb school. 

And this goal of diversification comes from schools that admitted few women as late as the early 1960s. 

I went back to Cornell on a road trip with my sons.  Even though years ago, it seemed to have had lost much of the preppy culture I remember  from my days there.   

Life was certainly different than my ACC days.  I went to my first rowing match on Lake Cayuga and one fraternity arrived riding an open-wheeled (maybe the 1920s) American LaFrance fire engine complete with a Dalmatian.  As an elective, I took one class from the equestrian school.  Intramural sports were popular, to include boxing.  The helmets and large gloves did not matter when my fraternity brother stepped in the ring for the heavyweight category - he knocked out all four opponents in 30 seconds or less.  He was a football lineman who signed with the Steelers, and had a helluva left hook.   

Students studied seriously, yet when it was time for a party, we partied.  The Rolling Stones made their second stop in America at an IFC afternoon concert.    Alcohol flowed (before drugs).   At one dressy dinner party in our large dining room, tablecloths and roasted turkeys adorned each long table.  Immediately after grace my date grabbed the turkey by both legs, spread them,  and took a bite out of what would be the crotch, then looked up smiling with turkey grease on her chin.    Somehow I graduated.   

[BillyB]

In the name of diversity, Asians are getting punished the most. Although they are a minority group, they are on average intelligent and motivated to get higher education but affirmative action thinks there's too high of a percent of Asians going to college per the percentage of Asians in the population. Schools are rejecting Asians to get other groups of people in more.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/11/02/universities-harvard-yale-reward-asian-americans-successful-diversity-bias-column/1739012002/

http://www.vox.com/2018/3/28/17031460/affirmative-action-asian-discrimination-admissions

[jone]

And she is a female applicant.  I guess your son, although qualified, never had a real chance.  Davidson is a superb school. 

And this goal of diversification comes from schools that admitted few women as late as the early 1960s. 

I went back to Cornell on a road trip with my sons.  Even though years ago, it seemed to have had lost much of the preppy culture I remember  from my days there.   

Life was certainly different than my ACC days.  I went to my first rowing match on Lake Cayuga and one fraternity arrived riding an open-wheeled (maybe the 1920s) American LaFrance fire engine complete with a Dalmatian.  As an elective, I took one class from the equestrian school.  Intramural sports were popular, to include boxing.  The helmets and large gloves did not matter when my fraternity brother stepped in the ring for the heavyweight category - he knocked out all four opponents in 30 seconds or less.  He was a football lineman who signed with the Steelers, and had a helluva left hook.   

Students studied seriously, yet when it was time for a party, we partied.  The Rolling Stones made their second stop in America at an IFC afternoon concert.    Alcohol flowed (before drugs).   At one dressy dinner party in our large dining room, tablecloths and roasted turkeys adorned each long table.  Immediately after grace my date grabbed the turkey by both legs, spread them,  and took a bite out of what would be the crotch, then looked up smiling with turkey grease on her chin.    Somehow I graduated.

Great color commentary!

[Gator]

In the name of diversity, Asians are getting punished the most.

I have heard this also, yet never took a hard look at the data.   


I would think schools would somehow be influenced by the history of alumni endowments by class of students.  My former school discovered that graduates who had belonged to Greek fraternities contributed disproportionately  more to the school than  other groupings. 

I am not talking about payola to  facilitate admission, but annual gifts to building funds, etc. after graduation. 

[ML]

Last year, friend's son was denied admission to Carnegie Mellon (his true dream school for computer science, ranked # 1) but was accepted to Cornell, Princeton and Univ of Penn.

http://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/computer-science-rankings

He chose to go to Cornell (ranked # 6) with enough scholarship money that parents are paying virtually nothing.

He reported that coursework was so hard that some of his high school Valedictorian classmates were often crying and one even wanted to drop out and return home.  One mother even rented apartment there to be nearby to console her daughter for first couple of months. 

As a side note . . . I have known for long time that Cornell has the top Labor and Industrial Relations program in USA.

[krimster2]

my daughter had a 3.9 GPA and composite SAT was 1470
plus she's female and wants to get into STEM...
mother was poor immigrant born in the Soviet Union, father is an American military veteran and engineer...
State Science Fair winner, plus lived in Russia and is bi-lingual....
has a TON of extra-curricular activities and references all the way up to the governor's office...

couldn't cut Harvard, one reason, no one in my family was from officer class!
this is something I noticed about people who WERE accepted, fathers/grandfathers were officers and NOT enlisted men like mine...
but while in Cambridge we also looked at nearby MIT
liked all the college sub shops there...reminds me of my youth... happy times...
Rice was slam dunk... and it's not bad and a 90 minute drive
reminds me a lot of USC - a good school in a BAD neighborhood!
but my daughter was taught by me how to take care of herself...

BTW, Pittsburgh in the 80s was a pretty harsh place, I was in the CMU library looking out the window
and saw a guy getting mugged, so I go running downstairs/outside to help
but too late, by the time I got there there was already a circle of people surrounding his lifeless body
robber already killed him by the time I ran down!!!!
people quickly disappear off the streets after dark!!!
sometimes you hear distant screams and gunshots!!!
America!!!

[Gator]

As a side note . . . I have known for long time that Cornell has the top Labor and Industrial Relations program in USA.

And Hotel Management, Vetenarian, and......  It is the largest Ivy and had some esoteric  programs.  In the 1960s one of my frat brothers was specializing in Chinese studies (ahead of his time).