Living Here or Living There

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ You are at it again aren't you!

If you want to have decent swimming facilities (clean water and such like) then you should know that it is either unavailable, or not cheap. A local example, we have/had a choice of pools, one was very cheap and pretty unsanitary, the regional norm. We have also a very nice place, modern, clean and hygenic. It costs about $7 per session and is in one of the most expensive suburbs of Tallinn, it is there because the people living nearby can afford such a figure, but then they would, on average be earning well more than $3k per month per family. The decent places are rare across the FSU, but they all share the cost attribute, I am sure!

But you might be right about a satellite dish, if you want to watch TV a lot. Personally, I do not watch tv, but many poor people do, it is the cheapest entertainment going. As to programmes, I guess that depends upon where you live and how good your Russian is.

How many times will you visit the local museum in a month? Cinema is not usually cheap, again not comparing like for like, library is great for Russian books, not many libraries have many books in Flemish, although more have a small selection in English, but how much money will you 'save' by using a library? Circus, well, I guess we will go every week yes?

In areas where tourists do not go, restaurants are far from cheap, but some are very good... Their clientele is those who can afford it. The average Russian eats in a restaurant about once per year. The only restaurants you are likely to have used will be those frequented by tourists and the relatively well off. But if you like the schwarma stands, shashlyk grills and burger joints, you will be OK.

[Leslie]

First thing I will mention is that credit in FSU is almost impossible for a foriegner to obtain.  Mortgage finance is hard to find then think 12% interest in Ukraine.  If you want a new West European car you will pay cash for it.  A new BMW 330SE will set you back over $60K.  Oh and you won't be able to park it anywhere cos when you return it will be gone.  Think 24 hour security and a chaffeur....

In a provincial city  (I am thinking of my wife's Rodina - Vinnitsa)  $30K will buy a three room flat.  You could park a 10 year old Opel in the courtyard.  This car would be scrap in UK.  In Ukraine think around $3000. 

Is this your idea of retired bliss???

Like living the projects in the Bronx!  (Or tower hamlets in London) 

Well it ain't mine.  Nor Natasha's

$150K would allow me to build a house in a fashionable suburb (say by the lakes in Vinnitsa)  I could keep a reasonable car then.  In sq m terms it would be the same size as my $600K house in UK.  In terms of location though provincial Ukraine SUCKS compared with just about anywhere!  Sure the basics of life are cheap but everything else is way MORE expensive.  Education and Health care are essentially free in UK. It would be private education and hospital in Ukraine. 

Krimster you won't answer the basic question.  What are you doing for income??  You state that your business is not making much money and you have offshore investments.  Under Ukraine law if you spend 181 days a year in Ukraine your world wide income is taxable in Ukraine.  Sure what you are doing will work for 2-3 years.  That is a sabbatical - not making your life in Ukraine.

I reckon I could live a reasonable lifestyle in provincial Ukraine on $3000 a month.  That means I have to make about $5000 a month.   Where do you guys get the idea that you don't have to pay taxes??  Sure you can get away with it for a while - but ALL your neighbors will be queuing up to inform on you.  Anyone who has spent ANY time in FSU will know the "crabs in a bucket" mentality.

 

 

[Leslie]

Multiple post deleted

[andrewfi]

Les, I think the problem is that guys who are feeling the pressures of life in the real world go all 'Gaughan' and imagine life in a simpler place will solve all their problems. The dream makes it much harder to face the realities that the dream entails.

I, as you know, live in Estonia, 'FSU Lite', it is easier to live here than Russia, or Moldova, both places that I know, but the patterns are much the same. I know that in this relatively wealthy little country (at least compared to Ukraine or Russia!) that to have a home equipped to the same standards as a decent upper middle class British home costs much, much more than in the UK. But one can buy a less well equipped and built place with more square footage and land than the UK for less money than there.

It is hard for me to imagine that guys who are on fixed incomes of the order of magnitude of $3k per month would have the lump sums required to buy any kind of decent place, they are stuck with rent, forever, and of course that means the property they can get will never be the best built, best equipped and certainly not the best value. The nice thing is that in Estonia one can get mortgage finance, indeed, if one were to move here, one could buy on a mortgage, or lease, and at very low rates of interest. The downside is that mortgages need a 25-30% deposit and must be repaid by the date of the buyer's 65th birthday, not very long for most guys here!

You are also right about the taxation situation. Estonia is certainly easier than Ukraine, both for businesses and personal matters, but for sure, to try to manage a tax free life in Ukraine, or Estonia in the medium term would be very difficult, in Ukraine becasue of envy, in Estonia, because they have an effective tax and banking regime - and envy!

As a full time resident here and with good experience of living elsewhere in the FSU as well as my training and education, I know the issues of which we write here. I have no axe to grind, nothing to prove, but I do have in depth knowledge of living hereabouts. I know that one cannot live here by going to museums all the time, I know that I would not go swimming in most of the swimming pools here, I know that affording a decent gym is not within the purview of a man with a family and a $3k budget. I know how the health system here works (and it is yads better than Ukriane, or Russia) my girlfriend is still indergoing her cancer treatment via the public health system - albeit aided by private 'assistance'. We would not be doing the same in Ukraine - or even Estonia if we did not live in the capital city a ten minute taxi drive from the country's main oncology centre!

Living in these places can be cheap until the real world imposes itself, but when it does, it comes with a bump, an expensive one!

Also, to repeat something I noted upthread, I think. The women you guys are seeking are not, generally, looking for a foreign guy. They are looking for a guy who can give them a better life in a different country not many want to live in a tatty old apartment like they have now, doing all the things they do now, with the same fears, stresses and concerns. If they are going to have to do those things, they can do them already, with a good looking guy, of the same age group, who speaks their language and understands their ways of thinking and acting!

[dorogoyroberto]

A new BMW 330SE will set you back over $60K.  Oh and you won't be able to park it anywhere cos when you return it will be gone...Under Ukraine law if you spend 181 days a year in Ukraine your world wide income is taxable in Ukraine.

Long-term residents of my building, which has a gated parking lot, report that a car has not been reported stolen from it in over 10 years...I notice Porsche Cayennes, Mercedes, Audis, Lexuses, even the occasional Bentley (!) parked on sidewalks throughout my immediate neighborhood and wonder why  the drivers appear so nonchalant about it...As far as taxes, I have been told this 180-day limit applies only to those with Permanent Resident status...but at least you need not leave Ukraine every 90 days!

If you try and live like an American in Ukraine, i.e., duplicate your current lifestyle, it WILL be expensive...and I do not mean the inability to find maple syrup (which I truly miss!)

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[jb]

I notice Porsche Cayennes, Mercedes, Audis, Lexuses, even the occasional Bentley

People probably know it's not a good idea to rip off the Mafia honcho's car.  

[ConnerVT]

I notice Porsche Cayennes, Mercedes, Audis, Lexuses, even the occasional Bentley

People probably know it's not a good idea to rip off the Mafia honcho's car. [/quote]
Volgas and Ladas are still fair game.  My father in law locks up his 20 year old Lada more securely than I ever have parked any of my nearly new automobiles.

[Leslie]

Roberto,

I agree with you.  I could have bought into one of these buildings 4-5 years ago.  I could not afford it now

The centre of Kiev IS a different world.  There are fancy cars everywhere.  It is closely policed.  Yes you could park a BMW on Pushkinska and it would be there in the morning.  Cross the river onto the left bank and I will bet you such a car would be stolen within the hour.

I love Kiev.  Spent lots of happy times there.  If I could earn a decent living in Kiev I would live there.  Simple fact is that I can't. 

 

[dorogoyroberto]

The centre of Kiev IS a different world.  There are fancy cars everywhere.  It is closely policed.  Yes you could park a BMW on Pushkinska and it would be there in the morning.  Cross the river onto the left bank and I will bet you such a car would be stolen within the hour.

Leslie,

I do not live in the center, but: I am right by the Vatican Embassy and, despite its modest facade and serenity, it does warrant a 24-hour police kiosk on the street. And, my building was constructed for the KGB to reward its officials, which explains my 60cm-thick walls: I cannot hear my neighbors at all. (Many retired officials still live here: this is a "dobriy den" building...)

You are absolutely right about the left bank!!!

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[SochiJon]

I'm an early retiree.. (Retired at age 52 and I am currently 57).. I have met, and am considering marrying an FSU RW. I have lived there, off and on, for the past 2 years and find that life there is not much different than living in Mexico. There are the regular inconveniences, like electricity going out for hours at a time, or the giant pot holes, unlit streets, etc., but aside from that one could make a 'home' there.

I have a fixed income of $2800/mo from my accounts, so that kinda limits my lifestyle here in the USA, but that amount in the FSU would allow a person to live very comfortably.

My question is this: Are there any people who actually have opted to live there, and if so, what are some of the obstacles they have encountered. Basically, pros and cons to living in the FSU.

Thanks

 

I spent the last 16 months living in Sochi Russia. It's on the Black Sea.. nice and warm!!   I miss it already!!! Hopefully my wife will be arriving here in the cold MN soon!!  She's gonna (NOT?) love it here!  heh

[SochiJon]

I lived in Sochi for 16 months. Sochi on the Black Sea is probably second only to Moscow in terms of rent and cost of living. I had a nice 2 bedroom flat with A/c and it was clean and nice. My rent was $400 a month! Not $1500. I think if you know Russian a little at least, and you know or have freinds who will help you locate a flat.. you can do it and not be screwed for high dollars.

I also had no problem living there on $1300 a month. I did not save anything, but i was comfortable and ate out EVERY day!!! 

I miss that place....... great place to go!

Jon

 

Hi,

We have discussed this topic before.  If you are serious about living in FSU then the first question you need to answer is WHERE?

Moscow, St Pete and Kiev are now expensive places to live.  5 years ago $100K would have bought a nice flat on Kreshatyk.  Think over $500K now!  A decent 100 sq m flat in kiev where a forigner could live will set you back $150K minimum.  Andrew is correct on rents.  Renting such a flat would cost a minimum of $1,500 a month.

Of course if you are prepared to live in rural western Ukraine prices are cheaper.  One of my wifes friends has recently bought 3 rooms in a shared village house for $7000.  I could spend a weekend in summer there but a whole winter.  NO CHANCE.

Second thing you need to realize is the cost of living.  The basics of life are cheap.  Food, alcohol, local entertainment etc.  Electronics and cars cost MORE than in Europe.  A new BMW is TWICE as expensive in Ukraine than in Germany.  You want to drive a Lada LOL!!  Same is true for a plasma TV.

The third thing is how do you make money??  If you live in Ukraine full time your income is subject to Ukraine taxes.  The government is corrupt but as a foreigner this won't work in your favor.  The business community is even worse.....

Maintaining your Western Lifestyle in FSU will in reality cost you MORE money than it does at home.  Of course if you are prepared to live as a local then your money will go further.  If you are living in a village in winter then it is likely impossible to spend $1000 a month.  There is NOWHERE to spend your money !!

 

 

 

 

[2tallbill]

Les, I think the problem is that guys who are feeling the pressures of life in the real world go all 'Gaughan' and imagine life in a simpler place will solve all their problems. The dream makes it much harder to face the realities that the dream entails.

I, as you know, live in Estonia, 'FSU Lite', it is easier to live here than Russia, or Moldova, both places that I know, but the patterns are much the same. I know that in this relatively wealthy little country (at least compared to Ukraine or Russia!) that to have a home equipped to the same standards as a decent upper middle class British home costs much, much more than in the UK. But one can buy a less well equipped and built place with more square footage and land than the UK for less money than there.

It is hard for me to imagine that guys who are on fixed incomes of the order of magnitude of $3k per month would have the lump sums required to buy any kind of decent place, they are stuck with rent, forever, and of course that means the property they can get will never be the best built, best equipped and certainly not the best value. The nice thing is that in Estonia one can get mortgage finance, indeed, if one were to move here, one could buy on a mortgage, or lease, and at very low rates of interest. The downside is that mortgages need a 25-30% deposit and must be repaid by the date of the buyer's 65th birthday, not very long for most guys here!

You are also right about the taxation situation. Estonia is certainly easier than Ukraine, both for businesses and personal matters, but for sure, to try to manage a tax free life in Ukraine, or Estonia in the medium term would be very difficult, in Ukraine becasue of envy, in Estonia, because they have an effective tax and banking regime - and envy!

As a full time resident here and with good experience of living elsewhere in the FSU as well as my training and education, I know the issues of which we write here. I have no axe to grind, nothing to prove, but I do have in depth knowledge of living hereabouts. I know that one cannot live here by going to museums all the time, I know that I would not go swimming in most of the swimming pools here, I know that affording a decent gym is not within the purview of a man with a family and a $3k budget. I know how the health system here works (and it is yads better than Ukriane, or Russia) my girlfriend is still indergoing her cancer treatment via the public health system - albeit aided by private 'assistance'. We would not be doing the same in Ukraine - or even Estonia if we did not live in the capital city a ten minute taxi drive from the country's main oncology centre!

Living in these places can be cheap until the real world imposes itself, but when it does, it comes with a bump, an expensive one!

Also, to repeat something I noted upthread, I think. The women you guys are seeking are not, generally, looking for a foreign guy. They are looking for a guy who can give them a better life in a different country not many want to live in a tatty old apartment like they have now, doing all the things they do now, with the same fears, stresses and concerns. If they are going to have to do those things, they can do them already, with a good looking guy, of the same age group, who speaks their language and understands their ways of thinking and acting!

Excellent points