The Struggle For Ukraine

[Chelseaboy]

Putin must be getting desperate ...Belarus troops have now entered Ukraine,no doubt at his bidding.

[Trenchcoat]

At the current condition Ukraine finds itself in, I fail to see the point of the whole drama the EU made about accepting Ukraine’s application to join the Union. I thought one of the fundamental requirement for admittance was a country must first proved its void of government corruption, and prior to the invasion, it was deemed Ukraine wasn’t quite there yet?

Now if this was for show, and rather ‘accepting’ an application was a symbol of some silly unity theatrics, wouldn’t this just became a stupid act of stoking the fire at a very bad time for Ukraine/Zelensky?

Not all good intentions yield desired result. Sometimes it only results to a very bad decision. Methinks someone just inked someone’s death certificate here.

That I find very true GQ, when some people bang on about stuff that sounds like its a great moralistic thing the end result doesn't necessarily match up. They are so caught up on the high morals of it all they fail to look any further as too actually looking into the results of such a stance they think it will be great but they fail to realise that's just a presumed assumption not necessarily the outcome.

Well Ukraine is apparently seeking a fast track to EU membership that apparently doesn't exist. As this article amount others tellks us EU membership takes many, many years moreso if the economy of the country applying is not in shape and able to adopt the Euro:

http://www.ft.com/content/a64c2b7a-dda4-4452-ad04-f308ff26e694

I believe you are right also in corruption being an issue that has to be ironed out as well. So currently under current rules applied as they should be Ukraine shouldn't have a hope in hell of joining. Unfortunately Zelensky is on a acting performance worthy of a Golden Globe and wants to ride high on the outpouring of support for Ukraine all the way into the EU on a quick easy in just for Ukraine. As you rightly say that will be like writing a death warrant. While I'm sympathetic to Ukraine I think people need to really calm down now and not let Zelensky take advantage unduly by what will in affect chain us up with him into a world war.

[GQBlues]

60 kilometers of troop convoy heading to Kyiv. Now that the countries who announced sending war planes to Ukraine thought better of it and rescinded that nutty idea, I hope Zelensky take this time to usher all the civilians still inside the capital to leave. This should be one of his prime objective during these ceasefire negotiations that is ongoing, instead of asking civilians to take up arms.


I respect him wanting to stay behind to fight till the end. All those willing to die for their country, too. But at least give the women and children the time to leave unharmed out of the capital. Give the saber rattling a rest and stop playing hero ball. Zelensky shouldn't take as many Ukrainians with him because that's exactly what's going to happen soon, especially with the west stoking every bit of this conflict as hard as it does.


Zelensky is totting the fine line of using his people as human shield. Learn what happened in Aleppo, Syria. You don't have much time.

[Jumper1]

I dont think he is impeding any women and children leaving? I think on the ground there it is actually being encouraged if possible.
   Although that may not be the sound bite for tv or media coverage?. If you need aid. You  play the best card of human suffering to your audience, and honestly why not? He was  partially put in this situation by those that,  if wanting to play in ukraines politics,should be sending in aid or not play in the first place, bay of pigs style?

The russian  troops certainly are part of that issue regarding Kyiv citizens leaving, or having any thought of that in any large numbers.

It's an issue in my mil case in Nikolaev.
While the troops are not in.the city today ,there are no buses or rail.running and the russian troops  do stop anyone leaving on any roadway in or out.
Theres still.direct skirmishes and bombing as well
 
So it's not like they can  just simply walk out,or get a mashruka , taxi.or.private car
Nor is Zelensky is in any position to help his civilian.population leave if he choose to.

It's a mess, and we can all point fingers all day at the various parties and policies that.shaped this,and continue to,but like always it's the common people who pay.

One things for certain, carried out in this manner,  a new regime Putin puts in of any of his cronies will be facing nothing but huge issues on.many fronts ,politically,economically ,logistically in rebuilding,and most likely a continued resistance that ultimately they cant control.
If they crushed Ukraine tomorrow,  odds are high they face a decade if strife and it regains independence anyway .
If its held it will still have Russua as the old. Ighieman in world view and both countries economic outlooks will be lower than pre invasion.
All this  will likely be for nought.

How world leaders cant see 10 steps ahead is weird.
Putin is typically much better at political chess

[Nightwish]

OH… MY… GOD

Q: “What’s going on in Ukraine?”

Kamala Harris: “Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists next to another country called Russia. Russia is a bigger country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine so basically that’s wrong.”

http://imgur.com/a/dHypwm8

[fathertime]

OH… MY… GOD

Q: “What’s going on in Ukraine?”

Kamala Harris: “Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists next to another country called Russia. Russia is a bigger country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine so basically that’s wrong.”

http://imgur.com/a/dHypwm8

I'll assume that was her.   I don't object to the way she spoke because considering her audience they needed a lesson on the basics I'm sure....the audience is probably young with NO clue about either country.... that show listeners probably couldn't care less about Russia or Ukraine.  I don't know anything about the 'morning hustle'. 

Fathertime! 

[ML]

Reports and photos show a column of Russian tanks and trucks some 40 miles long headed for Kyiv.

Seems like that would be the perfect opportunity to throw all the Javelins available at them.  With that string, there would be no misses.

If some planes were available, they could do the same thing.

What am I missing here ?

[Boethius]

Putin must be getting desperate ...Belarus troops have now entered Ukraine,no doubt at his bidding.

Belarussian troops are now in Kyiv, according to my sources on the ground.

[Boethius]

It's almost impossible to leave Kyiv.  People, including entire families, have been shot by Russian forces in their attempt to flee.  If a person doesn't have a vehicle, it is now impossible.

[Boethius]

The Russians are now bombing civilian areas in Kharkhiv and Kyiv indiscriminately.  This is a tactic they've used in all their wars. 


I think sanctions have to be broadened.  No Russian oil/gas in the West.  No wheat.  All bank accounts of Russian citizens locked, with a legal mechanism to get them unlocked for cause.  Property abroad confiscated if the citizens are tied to the regime.  The pressure has to come from within. 

[ML]

I think sanctions have to be broadened.  No Russian oil/gas in the West.  No wheat.  All bank accounts of Russian citizens locked, with a legal mechanism to get them unlocked for cause.  Property abroad confiscated if the citizens are tied to the regime.  The pressure has to come from within.

I agree. 
News reporters crying that if Russian oil cut off, prices will rise in the west. 
Who gives a shit about that?? 
I will willingly pay any price for gas and oil to stop Russia. 
Going to cost us a lot more in reconstruction expenses.

[Nightwish]

It's almost impossible to leave Kyiv.  People, including entire families, have been shot by Russian forces in their attempt to flee.  If a person doesn't have a vehicle, it is now impossible.

at least 2 full trains from Kyiv arrived today in Poland.
I have a couple of friends in Poland at the trainstation helping with transports who was there when they both arrived.

One of the trains went back to Ukraine half filled with (mainly Ukrainian) men who lived and worked in West Europe, to join the defense. 

Have no idea how long they will keep that up though.

[GQBlues]

I dont think he is impeding any women and children leaving? I think on the ground there it is actually being encouraged if possible.
   Although that may not be the sound bite for tv or media coverage?. If you need aid. You  play the best card of human suffering to your audience, and honestly why not? He was  partially put in this situation by those that,  if wanting to play in ukraines politics,should be sending in aid or not play in the first place, bay of pigs style?

The russian  troops certainly are part of that issue regarding Kyiv citizens leaving, or having any thought of that in any large numbers.

It's an issue in my mil case in Nikolaev.
While the troops are not in.the city today ,there are no buses or rail.running and the russian troops  do stop anyone leaving on any roadway in or out.
Theres still.direct skirmishes and bombing as well
 
So it's not like they can  just simply walk out,or get a mashruka , taxi.or.private car
Nor is Zelensky is in any position to help his civilian.population leave if he choose to.

It's a mess, and we can all point fingers all day at the various parties and policies that.shaped this,and continue to,but like always it's the common people who pay.

One things for certain, carried out in this manner,  a new regime Putin puts in of any of his cronies will be facing nothing but huge issues on.many fronts ,politically,economically ,logistically in rebuilding,and most likely a continued resistance that ultimately they cant control.
If they crushed Ukraine tomorrow,  odds are high they face a decade if strife and it regains independence anyway .
If its held it will still have Russua as the old. Ighieman in world view and both countries economic outlooks will be lower than pre invasion.
All this  will likely be for nought.

How world leaders cant see 10 steps ahead is weird.
Putin is typically much better at political chess

This isn't difficult, AJ.

The core intent of this whole crap is Russian wanting to install a pro-Russian political body over the current one. In a way, just like what happened in 2014. Different method, same objective.

I know this seems so wacky, but given some thoughts, the USA, along with its allies, did exactly that in Libya at far bloodier than what we've seen in Ukraine so far. Heck, we gangbanged Libya (US, Europe, Canada, et al for its oil). The US attempted doing that in Cuba, did it in Iraq, Afghanistan. Succeeded doing exactly that in many So. American nations, etc...Europeans had done exactly that in Africa, Asia, Europe, etc...

Hell, we (US & NATO) bombed Serbia's civilian proper for 75 straight days because we want NATO to take hold in the region, and oust Milosevic at the same time, remember that?

Isn't it funny how certain similar things are perceived differently?

Again, if Zelensky's priority is with the people of Ukraine, make their safe passage out of Kyiv the very top condition in the negotiations, or his ousting in return to Russian army retreating back to Russia. I mean, the Shah left, so this isn't unprecedented. If he exiles himself, along with other politicians deemed anti-Russian, but Ukraine and all of its people can return back in peace, is his 'presidency' really that much more important than Ukraine itself?

Of course, his other option is dying fighting for whatever cause he feels, along with untold number of innocent Ukrainians, and maybe even Ukraine itself.


Just like what the 'west' did in Libya and Qadafi.

[Jumper1]

Having been in the middle east in my younger days, I don't perceive those things as significantly different.

Regular people are routinely sacrificed for the self interest of major powers and the wealthy that influence them.

[Trenchcoat]

To be honest men in Ukraine could probably leave if they wanted too, if not already in a city that is surrounded. The border with EU countries is so long that its merely a case of by-passing checkpoints by a considerable distance. Odds are if there was anything much in the way of border patrols on the Ukrainian side they will have been called away to the front. Border guards on the EU side will just treat them as any other asylum seeker so they aren't party to enforcing the 18-60 rule being another nation.

Other than not in Ukraine the area southwest of Lviv is probably the safest place to be in Ukraine right now and will likely be until the very end if the Russians adavance all the way in. So the Ukrainian 18-60 rule probably doesnt have a lot of teeth in reality unless stuck in an area surrounded by the Russians.

[Jumper1]

There was continued bombing in Nikolaev today, also another troop assualt brought in by ships. In the vid I saw it was a pretty big line of them.
Because of rough seas  during the   drop ,the landing force was hampered, some drowned and this aided the defenders. At the moment the Russian troops have again pulled back some.
Niko is still in Ukrainian troops hands for now.
I have my doubts about tonight

[tfcrew]

[Davo]

 

[JohnDearGreen]

10,000 vehicles entering Sumy area
http://www.segodnya.ua/regions/others/v-suskuyu-oblast-zashlo-bolee-10-tysyach-rossiyskih-tankov-zhivickiy-1606221.html

[Boethius]

Planes are bombing Kyiv right now.

[Trenchcoat]

Apparently Kherson has or is about to fall, the city's Mayor has pretty much said so:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/mayor-of-kherson-in-southern-ukraine-occupation-of-our-city-is-under-way/

Russian troops have taken the port and the railway station. Whether Ukrainian forces are holding out in the rest of the city who knows. Kherson is surrounded so it's either a case of surrender there or fight to the death for Ukrainian soldiers there, that or mixing in with the local population but that is pretty much surrender anyway. Repealing the Russians looks unlikely there. If Kherson  girl is there she'll be in for a bit of a time of it.

Mariupol too is in much the same situation, surrounded with heavy shelling. The first girl I met in Kyiv was from Mariupol so she will be in much the same circumstance.

Looks like overall Russian forces are starting to break through as the pressure mounts on Ukrainian troops.

Article also states that Russian forces have linked up with Separatists along the Azov sea which is what I mentioned they were likely looking to do last night.

[SteveInBoston]

This isn't difficult, AJ.

The core intent of this whole crap is Russian wanting to install a pro-Russian political body over the current one. In a way, just like what happened in 2014. Different method, same objective.

I know this seems so wacky, but given some thoughts, the USA, along with its allies, did exactly that in Libya at far bloodier than what we've seen in Ukraine so far. Heck, we gangbanged Libya (US, Europe, Canada, et al for its oil). The US attempted doing that in Cuba, did it in Iraq, Afghanistan. Succeeded doing exactly that in many So. American nations, etc...Europeans had done exactly that in Africa, Asia, Europe, etc...

Hell, we (US & NATO) bombed Serbia's civilian proper for 75 straight days because we want NATO to take hold in the region, and oust Milosevic at the same time, remember that?

Isn't it funny how certain similar things are perceived differently?

Again, if Zelensky's priority is with the people of Ukraine, make their safe passage out of Kyiv the very top condition in the negotiations, or his ousting in return to Russian army retreating back to Russia. I mean, the Shah left, so this isn't unprecedented. If he exiles himself, along with other politicians deemed anti-Russian, but Ukraine and all of its people can return back in peace, is his 'presidency' really that much more important than Ukraine itself?

Of course, his other option is dying fighting for whatever cause he feels, along with untold number of innocent Ukrainians, and maybe even Ukraine itself.


Just like what the 'west' did in Libya and Qadafi.

Hi GQ. 

I don't know you in real life.  Perhaps you are swell guy.

Today T is flying from Boston to Warsaw.  She will head over to do what she can to help.

We all have our viewpoints.  You seem to constantly spread the bulls**t that Putin and Kremlin regurgitates.  Your choice, of course.  We have that freedom in America.

You are saying it is ok to invade another nation, to bomb it's cities, to subdue, expel and replace it's overwhelmingly patriotic  population with what another nation's Dictator wants.

As we've seen in the many signs and exchanges in Ukraine to Russia, go f"" yourself.  Idi Nahuey.

Slava Ukraini

[fathertime]

This isn't difficult, AJ.

The core intent of this whole crap is Russian wanting to install a pro-Russian political body over the current one. In a way, just like what happened in 2014. Different method, same objective.

I know this seems so wacky, but given some thoughts, the USA, along with its allies, did exactly that in Libya at far bloodier than what we've seen in Ukraine so far. Heck, we gangbanged Libya (US, Europe, Canada, et al for its oil). The US attempted doing that in Cuba, did it in Iraq, Afghanistan. Succeeded doing exactly that in many So. American nations, etc...Europeans had done exactly that in Africa, Asia, Europe, etc...

Hell, we (US & NATO) bombed Serbia's civilian proper for 75 straight days because we want NATO to take hold in the region, and oust Milosevic at the same time, remember that?

Isn't it funny how certain similar things are perceived differently?

Again, if Zelensky's priority is with the people of Ukraine, make their safe passage out of Kyiv the very top condition in the negotiations, or his ousting in return to Russian army retreating back to Russia. I mean, the Shah left, so this isn't unprecedented. If he exiles himself, along with other politicians deemed anti-Russian, but Ukraine and all of its people can return back in peace, is his 'presidency' really that much more important than Ukraine itself?

Of course, his other option is dying fighting for whatever cause he feels, along with untold number of innocent Ukrainians, and maybe even Ukraine itself.


Just like what the 'west' did in Libya and Qadafi.

While I get the personal connection on this particular website to Ukraine, it's still good to try to see things as logically as possible. 

Russia is acting as poorly as we (The US) often are.  Russia doesn't have the resources to get things done as politely as we do, which results in more brute force. 

while western media tries to control the narrative entirely (Leaving out legit Russian concerns) Aside from Europe, there is a lot of world out there, and much of that world isn't going to side with the Europe and the US on this. 

Ukraine is being used in an awful way. It is clear that Russia will continue to be as brutal as it has to be to achieve its goals.  Ukrainians would like to fight, aside for their desires to fight they are fueled by false hope they are supported fully by Europe and North America.   From a finaincial and reputation standpoint Russia is being punished greatly, but we wanted to do that to begin with.  We wanted to torpedo their pipeline, so now that these missions are accomplished, Ukraine will mostly be left to fend for themselves.  They should do whatever is in their own self-interest while remaining clear eyed regarding what they actually expect from the outside.   

Fathertime!   

[Jumper1]

What choices do they have at this point?

The idea that zelensky lead them along is one possibility.
The other is,that no matter who was their president, if it was not a putin puppet ,they would be facing a forced regime change is fairly obvious.
So are they fighting for Ze? Or for an ideology and hope of actually being independent and  of a better economically positioned ukrainevif tied more closely with  Europe.

Perhaps, just perhaps they tire of the
ration of breadcrumbs dished out old Soviet style.

There is that possibility.

Good old George ,if losing to a far superior  global force would look.much like GQs portrayal of Ze.

But maybe it wasn't the leader that defined that destiny.
Maybe it was general unrest against corruption, authoritarian non existant representation and an event to spark it.
Invasions might do that.

More sadly the underdog typically loses and the winner writes the history

[GQBlues]

Hi GQ. 

I don't know you in real life.  Perhaps you are swell guy.

Today T is flying from Boston to Warsaw.  She will head over to do what she can to help.

We all have our viewpoints.  You seem to constantly spread the bulls**t that Putin and Kremlin regurgitates.  Your choice, of course.  We have that freedom in America.

You are saying it is ok to invade another nation, to bomb it's cities, to subdue, expel and replace it's overwhelmingly patriotic  population with what another nation's Dictator wants.

As we've seen in the many signs and exchanges in Ukraine to Russia, go f"" yourself.  Idi Nahuey.

Slava Ukraini

Funny. I hope that made you feel much better. As is always the case, certain caustic post are allowed to remain depending on who posts.