The Struggle For Ukraine

[Admin]

Funny. I hope that made you feel much better. As is always the case, certain caustic post are allowed to remain depending on who posts.

More likely, the most frequent violators of forum guidelines have posts removed more frequently. They, predictably, complain about uneven moderation.

[GQBlues]

Was watching a lot of reports from the BBC channel yesterday. Mostly regurgitated snippets of videos that's been played over and over again. Half the telecast shows the current plight of the refugees of this war. From Poland to Slovakia to Hungary and even Moldova. With the exception of the latter, I've been to each of those locale.


I am elated to see these nations open their borders widely for these arriving folks, Ukrainians and foreigners alike.


It wasn't too long ago when we witnessed the very same plight of refugees from Syria when that war broke out. Again, many nations opened their borders to welcome these folks.


I am however taken aback when the north African refugees, mostly from Libya, when we invaded and bombed that nation back to stone age, took flight to cross the sea that divide their war torn nation hope to reach Europe and many, if not most, fell to their death in the high seas, or gunned down by paid militants, or stopped at their departure points. Predictably, those moments weren't televised on western media, including the day/night bombing unto oblivion of Libya.


Joe Biden was asked yesterday at the SOTU shindig if he thinks Zelensky should leave Ukraine, to which he responded 'that's Zelensky's decision''. Sleepy Joe is hardly ever right in many of his decisions, but I would agree with him on this one. It is Zelensky's decision. The decision to stay and fight. I watch him everyday, along with the Klitschko brothers, saying the same thing.


One can only marvel at their collective bravery. You just know by watching them what is in their hearts. Misguided as it may be. People used to always say FSU folks are pragmatic folks. I myself laid witness to this at times.


Just not all the time. In the end, IMHO, UKraine matters more than any one, two even 3 persons. But that's just me.

[GQBlues]

More likely, the most frequent violators of forum guidelines have posts removed more frequently. They, predictably, complain about uneven moderation.

Dan, I wasn't complaining. I simply noted what was evident.

[Admin]

This isn't difficult, AJ.

The core intent of this whole crap is Russian wanting to install a pro-Russian political body over the current one. In a way, just like what happened in 2014. Different method, same objective.

I know this seems so wacky, but given some thoughts, the USA, along with its allies, did exactly that in Libya at far bloodier than what we've seen in Ukraine so far. Heck, we gangbanged Libya (US, Europe, Canada, et al for its oil). The US attempted doing that in Cuba, did it in Iraq, Afghanistan. Succeeded doing exactly that in many So. American nations, etc...Europeans had done exactly that in Africa, Asia, Europe, etc...

Hell, we (US & NATO) bombed Serbia's civilian proper for 75 straight days because we want NATO to take hold in the region, and oust Milosevic at the same time, remember that?

Isn't it funny how certain similar things are perceived differently?

Again, if Zelensky's priority is with the people of Ukraine, make their safe passage out of Kyiv the very top condition in the negotiations, or his ousting in return to Russian army retreating back to Russia. I mean, the Shah left, so this isn't unprecedented. If he exiles himself, along with other politicians deemed anti-Russian, but Ukraine and all of its people can return back in peace, is his 'presidency' really that much more important than Ukraine itself?

Of course, his other option is dying fighting for whatever cause he feels, along with untold number of innocent Ukrainians, and maybe even Ukraine itself.


Just like what the 'west' did in Libya and Qadafi.

Red Text = Appeal to hypocrisy. A tactic used to distract from the central issue. Totally irrelevant in addressing the CURRENT SITUATION.

Blue text = Failure to understand the ideologies in play.

[Admin]

Dan, I wasn't complaining. I simply noted what was evident.

As was I.

[GQBlues]

Red Text = Appeal to hypocrisy. A tactic used to distract from the central issue. Totally irrelevant in addressing the CURRENT SITUATION.

I don't agree. You have the hypocrisy issue in reverse.

Blue text = Failure to understand the ideologies in play.

What's more ideal than NOT implicating the innocent lives that are at stake in this war? IMHO, this was LARGELY avoidable.

[GQBlues]

As was I.

I'm elated you agree.

[Admin]

I don't agree. You have the hypocrisy issue in reverse.


What's more ideal than NOT implicating the innocent lives that are at stake in this war? IMHO, this was LARGELY avoidable.

Milosevic has absolutely NOTHING to do with what is happening in Ukraine RIGHT NOW. Libya has absolutely NOTHING to do with what is happening in Ukraine RIGHT NOW. Cuba has absolutely NOTHING to do with what is happening in Ukraine RIGHT NOW.

No, I do not have the "hypocrisy issue in reverse." Apparently you don't recognize your own appeal to hypocrisy to use as a bolster for your argument.

[Admin]

I'm elated you agree.

Don't confuse confirmation with agreement.

[GQBlues]

Milosevic has absolutely NOTHING to do with what is happening in Ukraine RIGHT NOW. Libya has absolutely NOTHING to do with what is happening in Ukraine RIGHT NOW. Cuba has absolutely NOTHING to do with what is happening in Ukraine RIGHT NOW.

No, I do not have the "hypocrisy issue in reverse." Apparently you don't recognize your own appeal to hypocrisy to use as a bolster for your argument.

Like I said, I disagree with you. The same historical events repeating itself with the same motives, ambitions and cause. I am in fact deeply saddened the current war is happening in Ukraine, as I did when it happened in Libya, Syria, Iraq et al. History repeating itself, and calling it out, is NOT being hypocritical simply because the perpetrators changed side.


Barbarism and evil isn't simply classified on who is pulling the trigger.

[GQBlues]

Don't confuse confirmation with agreement.

Then that's simply another one we can agree to disagree on. That's life.

[Admin]

Like I said, I disagree with you. The same historical events repeating itself with the same motives, ambitions and cause. I am in fact deeply saddened the current war is happening in Ukraine, as I did when it happened in Libya, Syria, Iraq et al. History repeating itself, and calling it out, is NOT being hypocritical simply because the perpetrators changed side.


Barbarism and evil isn't simply classified on who is pulling the trigger.

Not true. You presented a one-dimensional perspective of past events involving US/West powers that you perceive as evil and present them alongside the current situation in Ukraine. One has nothing to do with the other. Especially when your one-dimensional perspective FAILS to present the CURRENT aggressor and their past events.

[GQBlues]

Not true. You presented a one-dimensional perspective of past events involving US/West powers that you perceive as evil and present them alongside the current situation in Ukraine. One has nothing to do with the other. Especially when your one-dimensional perspective FAILS to present the CURRENT aggressor and their past events.

What you seem to dismiss is, whether intentionally or otherwise, the underlying point that I make that 'the politics of war is wrong' regardless on who is behind the trigger. Evil is evil.

It is always the innocent lives in any region or country in these hostilities, whether currently or 10-100 years ago, is and always will be the victims in any of these geo-political BS.


BTW, I did not 'failed' to cite the current aggressor's historical past. I cited Georgia, Chechnya, and if you dig deeper, Cuba, Afghanistan, the Prague spring, etc...the 'west, US, Russia are all one and the same idiots playing goofballs in a sandlot.

[Admin]

BTW, I did not 'failed' to cite the current aggressor's historical past. I cited Georgia, Chechnya, and if you dig deeper, Cuba, Afghanistan, the Prague spring, etc...the 'west, US, Russia are all one and the same idiots playing goofballs in a sandlot.

As I wrote earlier, you fail to recognize the ideologies in play.

[GQBlues]

As I wrote earlier, you fail to recognize the ideologies in play.

I believe Dan, it is you who sees the global geopolitical landscape in a one dimensional lens. I refuse to look at things in a biased selective lens, is all.

[fathertime]

Red Text = Appeal to hypocrisy. A tactic used to distract from the central issue. Totally irrelevant in addressing the CURRENT SITUATION.
 

I think it all ties in.    The west, more specifically the US has made grabs in the past, more delicately because it often a large block of nations that all chime in.  That was also incorrect to do, nevertheless it is done and now history.  Meanwhile another large power (Russia) is in the midst of brutally doing something not much different.  It will be more brutal perhaps.  It seems if they don't take some large action, they would have another nation sanctioning them at every step of the way, as all the other European nations are.   While the events that are taking place and will be taking place are going to be abhorrent, it is the way the world works nowadays.  Cherry picking which events to condemn and take action on is typical. 

As far as the current situation, It seems Ukraine is going to be more tied to Russia than they would have liked.  It is as much a defensive move as it is offensive.   I think Ukraine would have eventually leaned more and more west, and at some point, when something else was going on, they would have been one of those nations that was sanctioning this or that.  Russia wasn't going to let that happen.   We didn't let it happen in Cuba and were close to nuclear war over it.  That is the way I see it.   

Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

Were Russia democratic, rather than authoritarian, Ukraine would have leaned more to Russia.  Even as late as 2020, Russia was Ukraine's third largest trading partner.  Over 5 million Ukrainian citizens live in Russia.  There are familial ties in both countries going back centuries. 

[Patagonie]

The Russian Federation had scheduled to publish an announcement in the prevision of the victory Saturday. 
And quickly removed it. But some people noticed it.
Here is the summary of the text, among some other information gathered for this 7th day of the war. 
 

[Admin]

I think it all ties in.    The west, more specifically the US has made grabs in the past, more delicately because it often a large block of nations that all chime in.  That was also incorrect to do, nevertheless it is done and now history.  Meanwhile another large power (Russia) is in the midst of brutally doing something not much different.  It will be more brutal perhaps.  It seems if they don't take some large action, they would have another nation sanctioning them at every step of the way, as all the other European nations are.   While the events that are taking place and will be taking place are going to be abhorrent, it is the way the world works nowadays.  Cherry picking which events to condemn and take action on is typical. 

As far as the current situation, It seems Ukraine is going to be more tied to Russia than they would have liked.  It is as much a defensive move as it is offensive.   I think Ukraine would have eventually leaned more and more west, and at some point, when something else was going on, they would have been one of those nations that was sanctioning this or that.  Russia wasn't going to let that happen.   We didn't let it happen in Cuba and were close to nuclear war over it.  That is the way I see it.   

Fathertime!

Cuba/Russia and Ukraine/US is a false analogy. Whitewashing bold-faced military aggression as "a defensive move" is intellectually dishonest. Explaining an unprovoked assault on a neighboring sovereign nation and its citizenry due to some perceived possible future event such as voting on sanctions is ridiculous.

[Admin]

1. I believe Dan, it is you who sees the global geopolitical landscape in a one dimensional lens.
2. I refuse to look at things in a biased selective lens, is all.

1. Believe what you will. The logical inconsistencies in your argument are clear.

2. And yet, you do.

[Chelseaboy]

Not true. You presented a one-dimensional perspective of past events involving US/West powers that you perceive as evil and present them alongside the current situation in Ukraine. One has nothing to do with the other. Especially when your one-dimensional perspective FAILS to present the CURRENT aggressor and their past events.

Well said.

[fathertime]

Cuba/Russia and Ukraine/US is a false analogy. 

We could also add in a dozen other aggressive moves that caused death and destruction, often spearheaded by the US.  I think Russia will see their move as similar.   If they do see it that way, I'll have to agree with them.  That is not sanction it, but I do see how they will be able to justify it. 

Fathertime!   

Explaining an unprovoked assault on a neighboring sovereign nation and its citizenry due to some perceived possible future event such as voting on sanctions is ridiculous.

We (The US) sometimes preemptively strike sovereign nations due to a perceived threat.   Russia perceives a threat at some point down the road.    Sanctions can be a form of financial war and that type of war can also cause suffering and or death.  Russia is at a severe disadvantage, so they are going to use what they do have which is seemingly a strong military.   

Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

1. Believe what you will. The logical inconsistencies in your argument are clear.

2. And yet, you do.

You're entitled to an opinion as well as I do. Touche. I stand behind mine, the fallacy is yours.

[Jumper1]

FT.
Pray tell explain the future where a nuclear super power that is globally positioned economically and with tons of natural resources, had its citizens in ant eal.threat of change to.thier lives or livelihoods in the foreseeable future from a west leaning Ukraine?

Invading over a  possibility and directly effecting Ukrainian citizens loves and livelihoods is justifiable or not?

Despite all the *noise* this is the crux.

 

[fathertime]

FT.
Pray tell explain the future where a nuclear super power that is globally positioned economically and with tons of natural resources, had its citizens in ant eal.threat of change to.thier lives or livelihoods in the foreseeable future from a west leaning Ukraine?

I have to agree that Russia WAS positioned and about to score big on their resources, and the pipeline was going to help.  I suspect in addition to the issues we do know, there is probably more that we don't know.  Russia was willing to lay it all on the line.  They probably expected a lot of these sanctions.   Even shipping carriers won't deliver or pick up their goods, airspace restricted, assets confiscated abroad.   Another country potentially aligning against them must have been unpalatable.   From what I perceive as their view, I can see why they are taking steps.   US also accomplished one of it's goals to prevent the pipeline from being completed.     

Fathertime!