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Author Topic: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen  (Read 75445 times)

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Offline jen

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2007, 08:57:35 AM »
jen,

There is no pat, quick or easy answer as to why American men would go looking to the FSU for a lady. Still I am sure you will see patterns emerging and will be able to jude for yourself what those similarities are.

TigerPaws


Yes, I agree with all of that. Thanks for the useful comments.

Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2007, 08:59:22 AM »
Re: the definition of feminism, I think this is an important question, but I don't have an easy answer and I am interested in hearing what all of you think...actually, we had some discussion of this question above. I entirely agree with what you said about Russian women.

You classify yourself as a feminist but have difficulty in defining it.  Maybe that's a clue to AW in general, who can't define who they are and what their role in society and marriage is.  there certainly isn't that problem with RW.

Offline Bruno

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2007, 09:15:17 AM »
...
I live in a small town of about 18,000 people.  Assuming 1/2 of the people here are women - that means in my town there are 162 women that are even a possibility.  That actually sounds right to me.
...

162 for you...

but in this, you count the baby's, child's, "babuska's", invalid, blind, criminal, etc...   :hairraising:

But like you show it, dating is a number game.... more ladies, more chance to find the right one... how much women in US to how much women in the rest of the world...

Hey, if she is in my taste and she is the right one, i am ready to accept a woman from a other planet !!!

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2007, 09:33:32 AM »
jen,

KenC brings up an important issue, coming from a more affluent background gold diggers were an ever present concern, as KenC said you could see the AW's checking out a gentlemans social status and bank account sometimes quite overtly.

One of the many reasons I chose to look to the FSU was that it would be far easier to conceal both my social status and net worth during the early stages of contact, meeting and getting to know various ladies from the FSU. Anonymity and the inability of the ladies to as KenC said to check out a man's possessions and bank account relieves the man from one more concern while he is seeking out, meeting and getting to know a lady.

KenC also brings up another excellent point which I also found to be true, of the ladies I met only 1 was concerned about my personal net worth and possessions and it did not take me long to realize that lady was looking for an easy ride to a better life (gold digger). The other ladies were far more concerned with who I was and if we were compatable, if I would make a good husband and father rather than what kind of opulent life they could enjoy.

TigerPaws

Offline groovlstk

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2007, 09:48:09 AM »
Jen,

One of the problems that I see is that definitions from everything from "feminism" to "traditional women" have wide disparities. I know you want to get a sense of opinions here in order to form definitions, but unless you're going to provide for a lot of leeway your definitions may be acceptable to the academics who review your work but too narrow to represent reality, IMHO.

Looking at the posts above you can see that most men define feminism in its most extreme sense; there's very little recognition for the wide diversity that exists.

For instance, I live in the NYC area and I know women who consider themselves feminists mostly because they want to get paid the same salary as men do for performing the same jobs or they simply feel they're cut out for a lot more than a life of cooking, cleaning, and caring for children; I also know some hairy-armpitted Andrea Dworking disciples who are at the extreme end of the spectrum (and whenever I'm at a party and they start to rail about how men view women as sex objects, I do my best to keep my mouth shut even if I'm thinking that's something you'll never need to worry about, but I digress).

The definition of "traditional woman" as propagated by marriage agencies usually means a woman who:
-Prefers life as homemaker - with or without children - and has no interest in a career
-Is subservient to her husband
-Is ultra-feminine in dress, manner, and behavior
-Has heaps of wisdom and common sense but will never be mistaken for an intellectual

I dated dozens of Ukrainian and Russian women before I met my wife, most were in their 30s, and not a single one fit this definition - even if many were ultrafeminine in dress. (And this was pleasing to me as I wasn't looking for a scullery maid.)

My wife would sock me if I asked her if she considered herself a feminist, but a side-by-side comparison of her qualities opposite those of most American women who trumpet themselves as feminists tells another story.

Another distinction that may seem subtle but IMHO is significant is that many and maybe even most of the men you're soliciting opinions from are not engaged or married to FSU women. Even here on RWD, most of the members are still in the search phase, many haven't even visited Russia or Ukraine and their only "experience" with these women are through email, photos, and fantasy. I have no data to back up my claim, but I'm willing to bet a sixer of Baltika 7 that a good portion of these guys will eventually drop out and never visit the FSU for a variety of reasons, another portion will visit and have their unrealistic expectations dashed, and only a scant few will actually marry and bring an FSU woman to the US. Shouldn't there be some distinction between those who fantasize, those who try and fail, and those who succeed in at least marrying an FSU woman?

Offline jen

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2007, 09:56:21 AM »
Groovlstk, thanks for the useful additions.



Another distinction that may seem subtle but IMHO is significant is that many and maybe even most of the men you're soliciting opinions from are not engaged or married to FSU women. Even here on RWD, most of the members are still in the search phase, many haven't even visited Russia or Ukraine and their only "experience" with these women are through email, photos, and fantasy. I have no data to back up my claim, but I'm willing to bet a sixer of Baltika 7 that a good portion of these guys will eventually drop out and never visit the FSU for a variety of reasons, another portion will visit and have their unrealistic expectations dashed, and only a scant few will actually marry and bring an FSU woman to the US. Shouldn't there be some distinction between those who fantasize, those who try and fail, and those who succeed in at least marrying an FSU woman?

Does anyone else want to chime in on this?  I imagine a poll has been done at some point of who has been to the FSU, who is married vs. single, etc. I feel as though I have probably seen one but do not remember where to find it now.

Offline catzenmouse

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2007, 09:58:02 AM »
Groov,

 :clapping: - You got you sum buk lernin' din't ya!
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Offline Wayne B

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2007, 10:03:52 AM »
Ken, you a fart ass ;)

Offline KenC

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2007, 10:31:43 AM »
Jen,

One of the problems that I see is that definitions from everything from "feminism" to "traditional women" have wide disparities. I know you want to get a sense of opinions here in order to form definitions, but unless you're going to provide for a lot of leeway your definitions may be acceptable to the academics who review your work but too narrow to represent reality, IMHO.

Looking at the posts above you can see that most men define feminism in its most extreme sense; there's very little recognition for the wide diversity that exists.

For instance, I live in the NYC area and I know women who consider themselves feminists mostly because they want to get paid the same salary as men do for performing the same jobs or they simply feel they're cut out for a lot more than a life of cooking, cleaning, and caring for children; I also know some hairy-armpitted Andrea Dworking disciples who are at the extreme end of the spectrum (and whenever I'm at a party and they start to rail about how men view women as sex objects, I do my best to keep my mouth shut even if I'm thinking that's something you'll never need to worry about, but I digress).

The definition of "traditional woman" as propagated by marriage agencies usually means a woman who:
-Prefers life as homemaker - with or without children - and has no interest in a career
-Is subservient to her husband
-Is ultra-feminine in dress, manner, and behavior
-Has heaps of wisdom and common sense but will never be mistaken for an intellectual

I dated dozens of Ukrainian and Russian women before I met my wife, most were in their 30s, and not a single one fit this definition - even if many were ultrafeminine in dress. (And this was pleasing to me as I wasn't looking for a scullery maid.)

My wife would sock me if I asked her if she considered herself a feminist, but a side-by-side comparison of her qualities opposite those of most American women who trumpet themselves as feminists tells another story.

Another distinction that may seem subtle but IMHO is significant is that many and maybe even most of the men you're soliciting opinions from are not engaged or married to FSU women. Even here on RWD, most of the members are still in the search phase, many haven't even visited Russia or Ukraine and their only "experience" with these women are through email, photos, and fantasy. I have no data to back up my claim, but I'm willing to bet a sixer of Baltika 7 that a good portion of these guys will eventually drop out and never visit the FSU for a variety of reasons, another portion will visit and have their unrealistic expectations dashed, and only a scant few will actually marry and bring an FSU woman to the US. Shouldn't there be some distinction between those who fantasize, those who try and fail, and those who succeed in at least marrying an FSU woman?
Groovster,
Nice post, but......
I didn't think you were accurate in the bolded area so I checked.

Sohkay  I believe engaged, been to fsu
Jazzyclassy RW unmarried living in Moscow
Simoni married to RW multiple trips to fsu
Gator previously engaged to RW, multiple trips to fsu (there now)
KenC married to RW multiple trips to Russia
jb married to RW multiple trips to Russia/ worked in Russia
BC married to RW multiple trips to fsu
Pitbull RW married to AM
Bruno was married/divorced to RW multiple trips to fsu
Makkin not sure of current status but multiple trips to fsu
Mir looking, multiple trips to fsu
Wayne B married to RW multiple trips to fsu
Dan Married to fsuw multiple trips to fsu/ worked there
rivardco looking but has dated RW locally, never been to fsu
Sandro, have no clue what his status is never been to fsu
MUJ married to RW multiple trips to fsu
Tigerpaws married to RW multiple trips to fsu
Slant looking been to fsu
Scott married to UW and lived in Ukraine
Shadow married to fsuw multiple trips
Maxxum engaged to RW multiple trips
Catzenmouse married to RW multiple trips

So..... out of a total of 22 posters, 16 are either married or engaged and all but 2 have been to fsu!  Want me to PM you the address to send the beer? :D
Ken
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 10:34:30 AM by KenC »
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Online 2tallbill

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2007, 10:33:33 AM »
Ken, you a fart ass ;)

You keep using these super technical debating points that although profound are difficult for the less educated of us to follow

LOL

Bill
PS, I would not trust a feminist researcher. 99.99% of them give the rest of them a bad name 

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FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Just kiss the girl, don't ask her first. Tolerate NO excuses!

Offline jen

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2007, 11:00:42 AM »
Ken, you a fart ass ;)


On that note :), I'll sign off for today.  FYI, I am going to be out of town for about a week visiting family and will probably not be able to check in on a daily basis, but obviously you guys can keep discussing if you wish and I'll catch up.

Thanks again for all the input.

Offline Jazzyclassy

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2007, 11:10:41 AM »
I think this research question was answered long time ago

Jennifer why would you care about those men who search women somewhere else, you are a married woman, let them find their happiness wherever they like from Africa to Antarctika.
I am sure there are so many great western women who wont let their men go somewhere else to find a partner

I think it is just how the World works, when one Country is lacking of somebody like Men in Russia for example they should somehow float from those places where you got tons of men and they are not appreciated by the other women  and not needed cos simply you got less women than men there, and when somewhere they lack of women, they should come from the country where they got plenty of them, Again I am not saying that they are desperate or bad or ugly or stupid , no it is just there are no partners for them cos simpy all are occupied!
Why not?

Plus why you stick to russian women in particular, look at the massive attraction of  American guys with Asian women , oi they are much more popular among any women as far as a lot of forums and research projects tell btw

and one more thing I disagree with Scott's last phrase about american women were being taught to become selfish , it is generalisation as you all love to blame me for, dear Scott there are tons of Russian women who are terribly selfish , its not that, it is just Russian women have more of low self esteem ...................

Offline groovlstk

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2007, 12:07:07 PM »
So..... out of a total of 22 posters, 16 are either married or engaged and all but 2 have been to fsu!  Want me to PM you the address to send the beer? :D
Ken

Ken, I'd assumed that she was using additional sources. If I'm wrong, do you mind if I tap just one of the Baltikas? :)

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2007, 12:08:29 PM »
and one more thing I disagree with Scott's last phrase about American women were being taught to become selfish , it is generalisation as you all love to blame me for, dear Scott there are tons of Russian women who are terribly selfish , its not that, it is just Russian women have more of low self esteem ...................

Jazzyclassy,

 We are all generalizing in one form or another and while your experience with American women is extremely limited you do bring a different view which is welcome.

As for Russian ladies having low self esteem, I will tend to agree with that assessment, some of that is because women are in general 3rd class citizens with little to no real power. Additionally there is little in the way of political correctness in Russia so women seem to be a bit  more critical of each other, then again that could simply be my preception.

TigerPaws

Offline caseyb2050

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2007, 12:32:00 PM »
Here's my reasoning:
population in 50 mile radius is 1,000,000
half of the population is female 500,000
65% of that figure is white 325,000
50% of that figure is single 162,500
25% of that figure is in my age range 18-28 40,625
At least half of American's are obese so / by 2 20,312.5
but make it 20,312 because I don't date midgets
Let's say I only consider 30% of these single, not obese, white females in my age range who aren't midgeted
are attractive and the number drops to 6,093 women who I would consider dating in my area.  And of the 30% that I find attractive perhaps only 30% find me attractive and the number dwindles down to 1,827- and a partially midgeted woman of .9, who could be a compatable match before further reduction due to: feminism, children, physical handicap or mental disorder, money hungry, like country music etc. 

So that's 1,827 women out of 500,000 in my area.

Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2007, 12:47:06 PM »
caseyb, sounds like some speed dating is in order.

JC and tigerpaws, I'm sorry but my RW certainly does not have low self esteem.  As far as my previous comment that JC disagreed with, yes, I was generalizing.  I believe this is what the culture teaches them.  Of course there are unselfish women in the US and selfish women in the FSU, just like there are one armed women in both.  Not so common, but easy to spot because they are the exception.

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2007, 01:20:38 PM »
ScottinCrimea, 
 
I have seen evidence of low self esteem throughout Russian society by women, more often from the more attractive ladies than anyone else.

I will agree that in general Russian culture seems to want women in subordinate rolls yet they have a very strong side when they need to. Most if not all of the Russian ladies I have and know have said they would prefer to be as a stone wall behind their husbands, which is an interesting contrast to AW who either want to be equal or better.

TigerPaws

Offline BC

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2007, 02:12:04 PM »
ScottinCrimea, 
 
I have seen evidence of low self esteem throughout Russian society by women, more often from the more attractive ladies than anyone else.

I will agree that in general Russian culture seems to want women in subordinate rolls yet they have a very strong side when they need to. Most if not all of the Russian ladies I have and know have said they would prefer to be as a stone wall behind their husbands, which is an interesting contrast to AW who either want to be equal or better.

TigerPaws

Tiger,

Low self esteem?.. anything but IMHE.

There seems to be a stark contrast as to what you have experienced and what I experienced.  RU is indeed a vast country.. Maybe our respective wives came from opposite ends?


Offline slant

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2007, 04:06:17 PM »
Hi everyone,

I came back to a lot of responses to read this morning -- thanks, everyone. It's very interesting to see the range of answers (some agree with the idea that AW's problems are what led them to look elsewhere, others were more pulled to the FSU by certain things that attracted them, or were/are just open to a person from any country).

A few of you mentioned problems of U.S. society that affect women but might be more general problems (affecting some men too):  depression, materialism, consumerism.  Would anyone care to elaborate on those ideas?

p.s. Just read the last post from Shadow -- I don't think that looking internationally for a partner is wrong. Re: the definition of feminism, I think this is an important question, but I don't have an easy answer and I am interested in hearing what all of you think...actually, we had some discussion of this question above. I entirely agree with what you said about Russian women.



They absolutely effect American men too... However, I am not looking for a man as a mate... I think everyone holds their mate (or potential mate) to a higher standard than their friends and rightfully so... I'll consider you a friend if your fun to hang out with, like to drink beer and watch sports... It takes a bit more than that to be my wife...


With that said, I have a question for the rest of you... A lot of you have referenced demographics for why you have chosen to look to the FSU to find women with the qualities that you are looking for... My question is, how would those demographics (as in those of ScottinCrimea's post) break down in the FSU? Are they really that much better odds?
This is a bad idea with SWEET written all over it!

Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2007, 04:14:25 PM »
Most if not all of the Russian ladies I have and know have said they would prefer to be as a stone wall behind their husbands, which is an interesting contrast to AW who either want to be equal or better.
TigerPaws


I think that is a fairly accurate description of a Russian wife, but I certainly wouldn't call it an inferior role, and not one chosen due to low self esteem.  Is the foundation of a building weaker than its walls?

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2007, 04:42:19 PM »
ScottinCrimea,

 I am sorry if what I said sounded like I was saying the ladies who believe "they are as a stone wall behind their husbands" had a low self esteem that was not my intent with this quote. My intent with the above quote was to show the difference between how many Russian ladies think and how American women think.

TigerPaws
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 07:30:49 PM by TigerPaws »

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2007, 04:57:41 PM »
  My lady admits that there were and are many reasons she looked for someone outside of Russia, some of which were the possibility (hope) of a better life, someone with the means to care for his family, someone with a different mindset than the average Russian man.

 My lady had married at an early age to what many would say was an average Russian man with a good job and average income for the then Soviet Union. But like many girls (Russian or American) she married for the wrong reasons and soon realized she had made a terrible mistake. She eventually divorced and moved home, it then took several years for her to come to the realization that she would not find the man of her dreams in Russia so she began looking into the possibility of a gentleman from another country.
 
 After registering her profile with several agencies (remember this was 1997) she began to receive a number of replies, then she was on the cover of one of the printed issues of the Anastasia Agency catalogs and the letters began to arrive in mass (I saw the letters, hundreds of them from all over the world). Many of the letters arrived without a photo, those were simply ignored except for a quick glance, most were written in English a few in Japanese and Arabic but the letters that received her attention were written in Russian as she did not know any English and with a high quality photo's .
 
 My lady narrowed her choices down to two men myself and another gentleman, the difference was that I met her first and that we hit it off almost instantly, of course the fact that we met in the Bahamas did not hurt my standing in the race to win her heart.

TigerPaws

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2007, 06:38:59 PM »
Sandro, have no clue what his status is never been to fsu
KenC, FYI my status is: divorced (from an IW), 30 years a bachelor after that (didn't want to leave you wondering ;)).
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2007, 06:53:20 PM »
Sandro, here are the definitions of bachelor:

1. An unmarried man.
2. A person who has completed the undergraduate curriculum of a college or university and    holds a bachelor's degree.
3. A male animal that does not mate during the breeding season, especially a young male fur seal kept from the breeding territory by older males.
4. A young knight in the service of another knight in feudal times

Since you say you were married once, that eliminates definition #1, so which of the others are you?

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Experiences with American women -- a question from jen
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2007, 07:26:16 PM »
Sandro, here are the definitions of bachelor:
1. An unmarried man.
2. A person who has completed the undergraduate curriculum of a college or university and holds a bachelor's degree.
3. A male animal that does not mate during the breeding season, especially a young male fur seal kept from the breeding territory by older males.
4. A young knight in the service of another knight in feudal times
Since you say you were married once, that eliminates definition #1, so which of the others are you?
Scott, I beg to differ: by definition (and grammar), an unmarried man is a man who is not (currently) married, regardless of previous or future matrimonial engagements ;).

As for the other alternatives:
2 -  No, MA :P.
3 -  Not young and furry enough for that ;D
4 -  Not old enough for feudal times :(.

Straight from Webster's or COD ? Only they offer "knight" as meaning #1, for some strange reason.   
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