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Author Topic: Minimum Wage debate - USA  (Read 52537 times)

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lordtiberius

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #125 on: December 18, 2014, 04:01:28 PM »
You have no honor!

lordtiberius

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #126 on: December 18, 2014, 04:09:36 PM »
Dear Muzh,

I put aside our mutual contempt to say, your son forfeited any monies owed to him and will have a hard time living down "I got fired for breaking my boss' finger.". That said, breaking the POG's finger probably gave your son great personal satisfaction.  At the end of the day, isn't that what we all want - to be happy at work?


Offline fathertime

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #127 on: December 18, 2014, 07:21:21 PM »
As a younger person as Muzh's son must be, I can see him overreacting after getting jabbed in the chest.  I know for me, and a lot of others, if another man or for that matter anybody makes contact with the middle of my body in an aggressive manner I react automatically.  I've done it even with my kids when I was startled, but I've stopped myself, but the reaction itself is automatic.    Why would the supervisor feel comfy doing that to begin with?  I can't approve of breaking fingers, but twisting them (and spraining them) is not that far off the chart of reasonableness as an automatic reaction to a momentary perceived threat.  IMO.


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lordtiberius

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #128 on: December 18, 2014, 09:02:15 PM »
if another man or for that matter anybody makes contact with the middle of my body . . .  not that far off the chart of reasonableness as an automatic reaction to a momentary perceived threat.  IMO.

That is assault.  Unwanted touching and fighting words, Puerto Rican you don't have a hair on your @$$ if you don't sue this bastard and his company for all that its worth.  Stop bit$hing about Bohica and defend your family.

Offline Muzh

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #129 on: December 19, 2014, 08:33:12 AM »

Ah, I understand now.  You would rather someone push you around and beg to keep your job so you can change the company from the inside.  I bet that supervisor loves guys like you which is why he was probably surprised one person didn't accept his physical provocation.

Yes, thick as a brick is perfect for you.  I honestly can't believe you would allow someone to poke you in the chest just because you told him no.


You obviously feel like you deserve to be treated like that and who am I to disagree.  :)


I don't think he likes BOHICA.


Me thinks he enjoys BOHICA.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #130 on: December 19, 2014, 08:37:29 AM »
Guys, no fingers were broken.


It was an instinctive reaction. He was trained to defend himself.


Now, AC is a case by himself in his own world. So I'll leave it like that.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #131 on: December 19, 2014, 08:47:37 AM »

AC, you seem to want to make more of this story than what was told.  Of course we got one side and based on that I am discussing it.


This isn't just being mistreated, this is about being physically threatened.  A man poking another man with his finger is a physical threat and should be treated as one.  We are not talking about calling someone a name here so don't try to downplay the interaction as it was told.


Yes, you are blaming the victim for taking the threat seriously and responding to it.  It sounds like you don't have much experience in physical altercations.


Exactly.


Not only the grunts are disposable, now you can dispose of them with prejudice.


It is interesting that you will hear people defending these kind of policies. I don't know if it is the lack of decent jobs, conditioning, lack of education or a combination of the above.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline BillyB

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #132 on: December 19, 2014, 09:19:39 AM »

I love minimum wage and McDonalds. My oldest son has worked at McDonalds and other close to minimum wage jobs. It has helped him understand why higher education is important. If he were making $15 an hour, he may be satisfied where he's at and never progress in life.


Minimum wage helps keep costs low, food prices down, among other items helping all Americans. It also has encouraged many young Americans to get educated and move forward with their lives. If we make it too comfortable for people to make a living without getting an education, America will quickly decline.


Trying to create equality in wages when people aren't equal doesn't work well. Just ask the USSR.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #133 on: December 19, 2014, 09:20:08 AM »
Someone comes around poking me in the chest, I'll haul off and whack 'em.  You can always get another job.  You need to stand up for what you believe in.  Good life lesson.  Move on.

(I have watched as my children got some tough life lessons.  My thoughts in watching these happen is to acknowledge that it happened and tell 'em to move on.  You can't dwell on this stuff.)
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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #134 on: December 19, 2014, 09:55:34 AM »
I love minimum wage and McDonalds. My oldest son has worked at McDonalds and other close to minimum wage jobs. It has helped him understand why higher education is important. If he were making $15 an hour, he may be satisfied where he's at and never progress in life.


Minimum wage helps keep costs low, food prices down, among other items helping all Americans. It also has encouraged many young Americans to get educated and move forward with their lives. If we make it too comfortable for people to make a living without getting an education, America will quickly decline.


Trying to create equality in wages when people aren't equal doesn't work well. Just ask the USSR.
Hey billy, a lot of what you said makes sense although there are a lot of people that are going to be working these types of jobs.  Remember we shipped many of the decent paying jobs overseas so now we have laborers picking up jobs at McDonalds instead. Not everybody is interested in higher education or are capable of those types of jobs, for one reason or another.  For better or worse in a prior generation many of those burger King workers were better taken care of with unionized jobs in the past. It is all of our society so we chooose....
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Offline BillyB

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #135 on: December 19, 2014, 10:21:02 AM »
Remember we shipped many of the decent paying jobs overseas so now we have laborers picking up jobs at McDonalds instead.



Much more lower paying jobs are going overseas than well paid jobs. America is still the land of opportunity for people. We can't get enough intelligent people here so we give them visas to study and work. Many of those immigrants homelands suffer from brain drain. They smartest and brightest people leave. Compared to other nations in the world, this is the place to come to succeed yet we talk about how bad we got it.


We wouldn't need smart immigrants if our own population were educated. I understand some people aren't born to be smart but we have to reward those that contribute most to society. If we paid doctors the same we pay people to flip burgers, there would be less incentive for people to spend 8 years of their life studying to become a doctor when they can make the money right now flipping burgers. As we close the gap in wages, we encourage more and more people to switch their career paths and most likely they will choose the easiest path that requires the least amount of work and use of their brain.


Sometimes my oldest son works for me in construction as a laborer. He makes more than minimum wage but less than other labors. It's physical work that is sometimes done in the heat, cold, or rain. He deserves more than what he make at McDonalds but less than what a doctor should make. If McDonalds pay him what I'm paying him, he probably never would be asking me for a summer job to make more. He probably would be dropping out of college.


Not everybody is interested in higher education or are capable of those types of jobs, for one reason or another.



True, but there should be and will always be a minimum wage. Those who aren't motivated or aren't smart shouldn't be making near what those who are motivated and smart are making. Regardless if one isn't smart by choice or by birth, they simply aren't contributing to society as much as those who are. Guys who work for me aren't smart by society's measure but they do hard work and contribute to society by building infrastructure. They should be paid more than guys who flip burgers but less than doctors.


If McDonalds raises their wages to $15 for labor work and I can't find good people because they are leaving the construction industry, I'm going to raise my wages to lure good people in and pass the cost onto you as a homeowner and taxpayer. Your home will cost more. The parks and facilities the government builds will cost more in labor and materials and you will pay more. Wages for everyone will go up across the board. The government will be happy to collect more taxes off higher wages and when everyone shuffles to adjust wages in their industry to keep their qualified workers from leaving, we'll end up where we started, with a wage disparity.


Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #136 on: December 19, 2014, 11:03:02 AM »
Billy you make good arguments and I'm glad we both were able to state a case. 

I think 15 is too much for a minimum wage all at once but I've  concluded a little higher should happen. I think the disparity has become too great now.
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Offline Gylden

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #137 on: December 19, 2014, 11:04:08 AM »
I would like to just make some comments at this point.

1. Is it the general line of thinking now that education/career is just about the money? If so what does that say about the teaching profession?

2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
     
3.  There are plenty of examples of countries, which have decent pay for less skilled jobs, where the economies are doing quite well regardless.

4. Where is the honor in holding someones head "underwater" financially speaking just because you can?



Offline ML

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #138 on: December 19, 2014, 11:17:10 AM »
Billy, thanks a lot for the posts.

It is good to hear from those working in the real world and understanding how wages are determined, etc.

As you said, raising the minimum wage will just set off an upward spiral and, in the end, we will be right back with income disparity which people will continue to complain about.
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lordtiberius

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #139 on: December 19, 2014, 11:27:34 AM »
Billy, you said there should and always will be a minimum wage.  Please explain

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #140 on: December 19, 2014, 12:00:06 PM »
Billy, thanks a lot for the posts.

It is good to hear from those working in the real world and understanding how wages are determined, etc.

As you said, raising the minimum wage will just set off an upward spiral and, in the end, we will be right back with income disparity which people will continue to complain about.

 :clapping:

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #141 on: December 19, 2014, 12:18:45 PM »
This isn't just being mistreated, this is about being physically threatened.  A man poking another man with his finger is a physical threat and should be treated as one. 

Only a lunatic would claim that an aggressive supervisor who gets animated and pokes a guy with his finger to make a point is "physically threatening" you.  You must be the type of mentally deranged guy who when his GF or spouse pokes you to make a point you throw her to the ground like you described above.

As far as all this talk of BOHICA I can assure you that after my talk with my union steward and my Lawyer that the supervisor in question might not be working for the company anymore, but at the very least he would never do that again and he would have a permanent written reprimand in his file.

Furthermore this situation shows that some guys have a brain which controls their reactions as opposed to just giving into a Neanderthal response.  We also still don't know what the employee actually said to the supervisor and how it was said, which is why I suspect there's more to this story then is being told.  It's clearly a way for some to deflect from losing a very good paying job with excellent benefits.  Sure that's hard to swallow and you sometimes have to learn a lesson and move on.

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #142 on: December 19, 2014, 12:26:07 PM »
1. Is it the general line of thinking now that education/career is just about the money? If so what does that say about the teaching profession?



The "love" of money may be the root of all evil but money is not. Money is just a tool we use to buy goods. It's difficult for me to trade construction services with the farmer who grows foods, the doctors who heal me, etc.... Money is used to get us what we need without the hassle of trading services and products we create. The more money we have, the more we can get in life and that is not a bad thing. Women measures money and a man's ability to earn it to judge if the man is capable of supporting a family or giving them a good lifestyle. In my opinion there's nothing wrong if a man chooses a career based on how much he can make whether he wants to earn the right to catch a good woman and have a big family or buy lots of toys. As far as the teaching profession goes, teachers who put out better students, should get paid more.


2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?



Minimum wage is designed to make sure people don't become slaves. Minimum will never be defined as decent. Even if the minimum wage becomes $15, it's still on the bottom of the totem pole after everybody else gets raises.  As wages go up, cost of living goes up. $15 may be decent money today, but not tomorrow. Some governments may move to create wage equality as the USSR did. People made the same money regardless if they were a doctor or cleaning toilets. That didn't work out too well.


 
3.  There are plenty of examples of countries, which have decent pay for less skilled jobs, where the economies are doing quite well regardless.



Just because a country does well doesn't mean higher minimum wage should get the credit. They're economy may be better with a bigger wage disparity which promotes people to advance onto a better job and/or get better educated. Germany and Greece share the same currency but their work ethic is different along with their economies. Germans deserves a better standard. Germans deserve to be paid more and have more in life if they are smarter and work harder. The same should be said for individuals.


America's economy is working well even in a recession. When our economy sneezes, the world catches a cold. Sure other economies are doing well but America should be careful in looking for answers from economies that isn't doing as well as ours. I understand there are some European countries that take from the rich to give to the poor more than we do but there should be a limit as moving towards wage equality will hurt their economy which in turns hurt everybody including those who are at the bottom fighting for wage equality. It may hurt some to hear this but one person who creates a thousands of jobs is more valuable than one employee and they deserve more in life.


4. Where is the honor in holding someones head "underwater" financially speaking just because you can?



There are a few people who would work people as slaves and that is why we have minimum wage laws but we still need wage disparity. Those who work harder, get results, and are smarter deserve more than those who are not and do not. If a guy comes over to your house to cut your grass and you pay him $10 an hour and he works slow and does a lousy job would you pay him $10 an hour to cut your grass the next time? You might offer him what he's worth, $5 an hour or not even hire him at all and nobody can claim you wanting to hold his head underwater just because you can. The truth is he is worth less than someone who does you a good job and works harder.


When people do a lousy job, they will get fired over and over throughout their life. I think most of us know at least one deadbeat and understand their worth. They don't deserve minimum wage, they deserve to be unemployed. After being hungry and learning life the hard way they may get motivated to work harder next time and if their hard work doesn't earn them enough, they can find a job that appreciates their work ethic and talents. There are plenty of well paying jobs out there where companies pay more for good talent. The bad talent and least motivated....they deserve to work at McDonalds and earn minimum wage. Those people exist and because they exist which proves not everybody is equal, we need wage disparity.


I've met some smart, hard working construction workers and asked them why aren't they a foreman, superintendent or project manager since they can utilize their talents better there. The usual answer is that they've been offered the position but turn down the job since the pay raise doesn't match the increase in responsibility. The more we try to equalize everybody's pay, we will see more and more people refusing to advance in life. Lot's of smart people will be content on staying at the bottom.


Billy, you said there should and always will be a minimum wage.  Please explain


I explain that somewhat in my response to Glyden but simply put, everybody is not equal and doesn't contribute to society the same way so people deserve different pay. Those who are dumb, lazy, and unmotivated to advance in life should get less pay than their opposites. Those people will always exist so minimum wage should always exist.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #143 on: December 19, 2014, 01:00:55 PM »

2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
 
Hi Glyden, I think you bring up valid points. One way we make up for the huge disparity in wages is through the tax code.  Through the EIC low income workers get roughly the equivalent of 3 dollars an hour more per hour, if they have dependent children...quite a bit less if not..it is not based on hours worked but on total income...very good and somewhat stealth way to help.

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #144 on: December 19, 2014, 01:04:19 PM »

As far as all this talk of BOHICA I can assure you that after my talk with my union steward and my Lawyer that the supervisor in question might not be working for the company anymore, but at the very least he would never do that again and he would have a permanent written reprimand in his file.



Bull SHIT!!!
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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #145 on: December 19, 2014, 01:11:38 PM »
I would like to just make some comments at this point.

1. Is it the general line of thinking now that education/career is just about the money? If so what does that say about the teaching profession?




Unfortunately, it is true. However, I would not blame the teaching profession itself. The blame falls squarely on the parents shoulders. This is what their children know; two parents busting their asses to have their McMansion, 10-60" HDTVs, 3 SUVs, personal powerplant to heat up those cathedral ceilings, etc. However, to damn tired to spend time with their kids so they shove them to the malls as soon as they get home from work.

2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
     


Hush, you communist, you. See Billy's statement and AC's response.


3.  There are plenty of examples of countries, which have decent pay for less skilled jobs, where the economies are doing quite well regardless.



Yep. And here many Americans refer to those places as the Socialist Gay States of Europe.


4. Where is the honor in holding someones head "underwater" financially speaking just because you can?


There is none, at least for decent human beings.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #146 on: December 19, 2014, 02:52:47 PM »
I would like to just make some comments at this point.

1. Is it the general line of thinking now that education/career is just about the money? If so what does that say about the teaching profession?

2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
     
3.  There are plenty of examples of countries, which have decent pay for less skilled jobs, where the economies are doing quite well regardless.

4. Where is the honor in holding someones head "underwater" financially speaking just because you can?




Some are trying to hold on to the past.  Minimum wage jobs were typically done by teenagers.  They were jobs that were temporary and thus were not intended to sustain a family.

Those days are gone.  As Billy pointed out, the jobs that many used to take care of their families have left the country.


It's rather strange to me.  You got the same people complaining that not enough people work and then in the same breath the same people are complaining about raising the minimum wage so people can take care of their own.


Then the same people complain about social welfare programs costing too much. 


We do have a serious problem here and the minimum wage won't solve it.  We have more jobs going overseas and technology taking the place of many other jobs.  As a society, we do need to take care of our own.  I know others clearly show narcissistic behavior and would let them eat cake as they say. 


That isn't good for society.


I think the line, for me, is to take care of everyone but don't make it so there isn't any drive for upward mobility.  I would rather have people making more, per hour, and have satisfaction of taking care of their own than to wait for welfare scraps. 


The jobs are not coming back.  To hold on to the past is a cop out.  This is reality even if some don't want to see it or can't see it from their ivory towers.

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #147 on: December 19, 2014, 02:57:59 PM »
Only a lunatic would claim that an aggressive supervisor who gets animated and pokes a guy with his finger to make a point is "physically threatening" you.  You must be the type of mentally deranged guy who when his GF or spouse pokes you to make a point you throw her to the ground like you described above.

As far as all this talk of BOHICA I can assure you that after my talk with my union steward and my Lawyer that the supervisor in question might not be working for the company anymore, but at the very least he would never do that again and he would have a permanent written reprimand in his file.

Furthermore this situation shows that some guys have a brain which controls their reactions as opposed to just giving into a Neanderthal response.  We also still don't know what the employee actually said to the supervisor and how it was said, which is why I suspect there's more to this story then is being told.  It's clearly a way for some to deflect from losing a very good paying job with excellent benefits.  Sure that's hard to swallow and you sometimes have to learn a lesson and move on.


Like I said, it doesn't sound like you have much experience in physical confrontations.  By the way, that isn't nor was it intended to be an attack on you.  Fights happen fast and they are over fast.  To think a man poking you in the chest aggressively isn't a threat shows your ignorance on the topic. 

We already proved you're not a man of your word and a coward so let's not continue to recap everything, shall we?

UPS needs to pay more because they are a shit company to work for.  Muzh's son has better opportunites ahead of him so this was a kick in the ass he needed.


I went through the same thing.  I quite college and moved to another state.  I eventually got tired of working from 6am to 10pm  and went back to school.  Surprisingly how well my grades were after some motivation.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 03:06:01 PM by LiveFromUkraine »

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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #148 on: December 19, 2014, 03:06:00 PM »
Like I said, it doesn't sound like you have much experience in physical confrontations.  By the way, that isn't nor was it intended to be an attack on you.  Fights happen fast and they are over fast.  To think a man poking you in the chest aggressively isn't a threat shows your ignorance on the topic. 

The only ignorance being displayed here is the fool who cannot distinguish between an unruly supervisor and a genuine threat.  You've already displayed that time and again with your pacifist whining about the USA going to war against ISIS.  Yet you would throw someone to the ground based on an inability to engage your brain as to an appropriate response; truly the actions of a Neanderthal.


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Re: Minimum Wage debate - USA
« Reply #149 on: December 19, 2014, 03:06:56 PM »
The only ignorance being displayed here is the fool who cannot distinguish between an unruly supervisor and a genuine threat.  You've already displayed that time and again with your pacifist whining about the USA going to war against ISIS.  Yet you would throw someone to the ground based on an inability to engage your brain as to an appropriate response; truly the actions of a Neanderthal.


So, have you always wanted other people to fight your battles or was this cowardice attained by being bullied in grade school?

 

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