Poll: Among US citizens has increased the number of supporters of Ukraine weapon

[Boethius]

So because he got a sweetheart deal, that makes him a thief?

When you take state property and don't pay for it, yes.

I know people who steal government property.  They abuse their positions to steal tools, guns and optics.  They then sell it for drugs sometimes.  The smart ones then launder the dirty money through real estate.  That's what thieves do at an Army base, not that the Army cares because they don't.

Poroshenko got a once in a lifetime something for nothing deal and he took it.  He then built one of the best brands in Ukraine that could be a European or world competitor.  A thief just thinks about more stuff he can steal because he thinks it is owed to him.

Unless you have other evidence, I will refrain from future comment on the matter and let others make their own mind.

I will say I agree with you on Yats. He is a crook.



What kind of evidence can there be?  He took over existing factories, didn't pay the workers for them, and claimed they were his.  He built a brand, but that "brand" is identical to the candies produced in the Soviet factories he took over. 


Under your definition, virtually no Ukrainian oligarch is a crook. 

[AC]

When you take state property and don't pay for it, yes.

Simply not necessarily true, as BB pointed out.  He took a failing state asset and turned it around.  Props to Poroshenko.

Would you rather have somebody else in the leadership position of Ukraine?

[Gator]

Darth, you have appeared again at RWD.   How long has it been?  Three years. 

Still the oddball.  You are a conflicted man.  A "socialistic republican" if I recall your self-label.   I considered you as an intelligent yet misguided, very young man with a ton of idealistic contempt for a fundamental part of what made America great. And now you are on a commie wave.  What kind of weed are you importing to your upstate New York hamlet?

I do admire you having sole custody of your young child.  Plus anyone who appreciates Paul Smith College ain't all bad.  And contrarian views are welcome at RWD, particularly if fresh, yet the standard still should be reasoned and well-founded.   

And this brings me to something you wrote:

First off,,, I have a friend who is fighting for the DPR "that's east Ukraine."
I do not consider him or the people of east Ukraine Terrorists....

And you are believing everything this "friend" is telling you.  How did you meet this friend?  IIRC you communicated with some FSUW through a specious agency yet never took a trip.  I doubt you met this "friend" in your hamlet?  I may be wrong, yet this sounds like someone you met on-line in the middle of a long, cold night with nothing to do.


And this "friend" says there are no Russian military in Ukraine.  Please learn more about your friend before subscribing to his story.  The internet chat rooms are full of Russian trolls. 

Read the Guardian's account (The Guardian, winner of the Pulitzer Prize) of their moderators' encounter with an orchestrated pro-Kremlin campaign in news coverage of the Russia-Ukraine conflict:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online

  On 23 April the writer complained again: "One need only pick a Ukraine article at random, pick any point in the comments at random, and they will find themselves in a sea of incredibly aggressive and hostile users (the most obvious have accounts created since February 2014 … but there also exist those who registered with the Guardian before the high point of the crisis) who post the most biased, inciteful [sic] pro-Kremlin, anti-western propaganda that seems as if it's taken from a template, so repetitive are the statements. Furthermore, these comments are consistently capturing inordinate numbers of 'recommends', sometimes on the order of 10 to 12 times what pro-Ukrainian comments receive."

[Boethius]

Simply not necessarily true, as BB pointed out.  He took a failing state asset and turned it around.  Props to Poroshenko.

Would you rather have somebody else in the leadership position of Ukraine?

It was not a failing state asset.  The factories he "liberated" were all successful.  There were, even in Soviet times, some successful factories.

[AC]

It was not a failing state asset.  The factories he "liberated" were all successful.  There were, even in Soviet times, some successful factories.

I wonder why as BB pointed out there wasn't some dirt about this during the campaign?

He was elected by an unprecedented majority of the Ukrainian population in all regions.

[Boethius]

I wonder why as BB pointed out there wasn't some dirt about this during the campaign?

He was elected by an unprecedented majority of the Ukrainian population in all regions.

All irrelevant.  Kuchma was reelected when rumours circulated about his ordering the execution of a journalist, and when it was well known he and his son ran Donbas.  Yushchenko was elected despite having stolen priceless artifacts from Kyiv museums.  They remain, to this day, part of his private collection.  Tymoshenko was elected despite the fact she stole well over a billion dollars. 

[AC]

All irrelevant.  Kuchma was reelected when rumours circulated about his ordering the execution of a journalist, and when it was well known he and his son ran Donbas.  Yushchenko was elected despite having stolen priceless artifacts from Kyiv museums.  They remain, to this day, part of his private collection.  Tymoshenko was elected despite the fact she stole well over a billion dollars.

Not at all irrelevant.  Clearly Ukrainians wanted change as evidenced by the events of Maidan.

Clearly Ukrainians believe Poroshenko was the best man for the transition to true democracy.

The accusation which you've made has little to no evidence and more importantly pales in comparison
to the accusations against the others, especially that Kuchma ordered the execution of a journalist.

[Boethius]

There is plenty of evidence in Ukrainian language resources, going all the way back to Yushchenko's presidency.


I'm not about to whitewash Poroshenko's past because it fits some ideological purpose.

[Boethius]

In the 1990's, in both Russia and Ukraine, property was taken by what was called "raiders" locally.  The raiders would show up at a factory, armed, and tell the director they now owned it.  Lazarenko did this with the largest gas company in Ukraine.  One day, it was a state asset, the next day, it belonged to him and his deputy, Tymoshenko.  Lazarenko's mistake was signing paperwork, which is what eventually lead to his downfall.  That, and moving money to the US.  Tymoshenko learned from that mistake. No Soviet built factory was acquired legally, or for anything near its value.  This was the way privatization occurred, and how business was done in Ukraine, and still is, to a large degree.


Muzh had a story here of a building that a local politician turned into his residence, and his SIL told him "He stole it fair and square."


In Russia, to some degree, this type of theft was somewhat reversed.  For what purpose, I won't go into, but in Ukraine, that is not the case and instead, these oligarchs want the world to believe they earned their fortunes, and that they are "self made men".  Look at who Ukraine's oligarchs are;  All former nomenklatura.  There is a reason for that.

[AC]

There is plenty of evidence in Ukrainian language resources, going all the way back to Yushchenko's presidency.


I'm not about to whitewash Poroshenko's past because it fits some ideological purpose.

Oh okay.  Bandera comes to mind.   

[Boethius]

I haven't whitewashed his past.  There is no evidence he knew of the slaughter of Poles, or the killing of Jews.  There was no evidence that UPA took part in the killing of Jews until fairly recently, and when that evidence was published, I noted that they did take part in the first pogrom in L'viv, with the loss of 19 Jewish lives.

I have never denied UPA was responsible for the slaughter of tens of thousands of Poles in Volyn'.  But to this day, there is nothing to indicate Bandera knew about this, let alone ordered it.

I have posted he was ruthless, and he was.  Had he ever gained power, I believe he would have been a dictator. 

[Boethius]

I'll also say this.  Bandera is a symbol.  It is not so much that many Ukrainians venerate him, but he is a symbol of resistance to a hated Stalinist past, and in particular, and, by extension, rule from Moscow.   Moscow's rule in Western Ukraine after WWII was particularly onerous, far more so than in Central or Eastern Ukraine, and lasted until the collapse of the USSR.  More than 100,000 Western Ukrainians died fighting communism in the aftermath of WWII.  That is what Bandera represents to many in that region.


 

[BillyB]

The Kiev government has done very little to help the People. Min-Wage in Western Ukraine is now less than several African countries and with IMF Greek style bail out on it's way...

Ukraine tried Communism but it didn't work. You may believe they tried Capitalism after the fall of the USSR in 1991 but they were never free since they were always influenced by Russia. Poland and the Baltics on the other hand successfully pulled away from Russia's influence and the average wage for citizens there are more than what Russians are making. Communism never worked anywhere. Friends have told me the only thing that is true about Communism is Communism makes everybody equal, equally poor.

You are a conflicted man.  A "socialistic republican" if I recall your self-label.   I considered you as an intelligent yet misguided, very young man with a ton of idealistic contempt for a fundamental part of what made America great. And now you are on a commie wave.  What kind of weed are you importing to your upstate New York hamlet?

I remember Darth always stating he had Communist beliefs so I don't think he changes his mind everyday but I would be interested to hear how he thinks Communism's core values will solve Ukraine's problems. Communism is not just an idea to people of Ukraine. Most of the people there have lived it and have no desire to go back to that life after seeing how the people in the West live and seeing their neighbors Poland and the Baltics enjoying success.

[Boethius]

Darth, here is an eyewitness report.  Read this then tell me the separatists are not terrorists.
 
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-withdraw-eyewitness-debaltseve-russia/26873579.html

[Muzh]

Muzh had a story here of a building that a local politician turned into his residence, and his SIL told him "He stole it fair and square."

Kharkiv Children's Hospital #3


Originally, it was the house/offices of Kharkiv's Governor personal physician before the revolution. After the revolution, the Bolsheviks appropriated the building and turned it into a hospital.

[Boethius]

The current "owner" of that building turned it into a personal residence, did he not?  And did not pay for it, if I am not mistaken?

[Muzh]

The current "owner" of that building turned it into a personal residence, did he not?  And did not pay for it, if I am not mistaken?

Oh yes, absolutely.


I was just giving some background.

[Boethius]

I know.   I remembered that story.

[lordtiberius]

There are three sides in this conflict.

No.. 2

[Darth_Budda]

I met the guy in Donetsk through my International Communist/Socialist Channels.. I am a member of the Socialist Party USA and NYS Green Party.
May American Communist and Socialist groups have contacts with other International organizations. Their are also Internationalists Fighting for the YPG in Syria against ISIS.

Their is a underground recruitment movement that has been starting to get more active the last few years. It is not unique to Far Leftist groups.
I am friends on FB with several news type people, who write articles for Press TV, RT and American publications.. I meat some people through them.

I am a Communist that is True,, But I am not a Stalinist or Maoist...  If i had to say, and I could be wrong but my Ideas are influenced on Marx, Lenin and Deng. So my politics put me between Communism and Revolutionary Socialism. So I support Private Personal Property, Nationalization of Large Industry, Company-Unions for mid size business and Private enterprise on the small scale.  With a highly progressive Income and Wealth Tax.

I think when people hear Communism they think Stalin or Mao.. But here in America we have had many influential Socialists and Communists that you can draw inspiration from.



Kyiv's Bid To Ban Communist Party Could Provoke 'Radical Opposition'
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-ban-communist-party-election-reaction-radical-opposition/25390439.html

Ukraine: Proposed Communist Party ban threatens democratic rights
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/57058

Ukraine Minister of Justice files lawsuit to ban Communist Party
http://ukraineantifascistsolidarity.wordpress.com/2014/07/14/ukraine-minister-of-justice-files-lawsuit-to-ban-communist-party/

[Gator]

I remember Darth always stating he had Communist beliefs so I don't think he changes his mind everyday but I would be interested to hear how he thinks Communism's core values will solve Ukraine's problems.

I do not care what brand of socialism he subscribes to.  It is his choice to waste his energy in the pursuit of nationalization of large industry, etc.   Can you imagine what this country would be today if industry had been nationalized 100 years ago!!!!  Not only would the  USSR probably still exist, the Kremlin may even be the Top Dog today with the US a mere satellite.

What I care about is his quoting a "friend" to claim the separatists are good guys and are not assisted by the Russian military.   

[Darth_Budda]

He is a Communist from Texas and a ex Marine... He has not seen any Russian Soldiers.. Volunteers sure, But with Kiev Hiring BlackWater and other international Mercenaries. I see this as a Tit for tat issue...

The Situation is hard to understand, but It is not as one sided as many here think... If it was one side would of all ready won...

Some people here say that all the soldiers from the DPR are from Russia... Yet the leader of the DPR is east Ukrainian...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Zakharchenko


we can just agree to disagree...

[AkMike]

Please cite sources other that RT, pravda or sputnik for the proof of Blackwater or  foreign mers.

 It hasn't happened..

[Boethius]

There are Russian soldiers in Ukraine.  There are significant numbers of mercenaries from Russia as well. 
 
Blackwater has not been hired by Ukraine.  No way would that be able to be secret.  There are some foreigners fighting among Ukraine's volunteer batallions, but nowhere near the numbers on the DPR/LNR side. 
 
Darth, I know people from that region.  Most do not support the rebels.  Not that they support Kyiv either, but they are not siding with the "separatists".
 
Zakharchenko was not the leader of the DPR until it was pointed out numerous times that the leaders of the "rebel" side were Muscovites.  They were then pulled back to Moscow and replaced with locals. 

[Gator]

I met the guy in Donetsk through my International Communist/Socialist Channels.. I am a member of the Socialist Party USA and NYS Green Party.

Just as I guessed... the "friend" you quote is not a friend you have personally met.  He is merely one of your undetermined cyber acquaintances.   An ex-Marine from Texas fighting in a noble rebellion against oppressors from Kiev.   This is too rich. 

And you believe him.  Darth_Budda believes him. 

[I refreshed my memory by reading your 2011-2012 posts.]   


This is the same 26-yo Darth_Budda who came to RWD revealing he had a budding relationship with a UW he met through ....wait for it.....Anastasia Dating agency. 

 
And the venerable Jack, along with everyone else at RWD, wrote you were "being played."  BTW, Jack passed away sometime after his post, and is remembered as someone he really knew the FSU agency business.

Yes, your "friend" in Donetsk is speaking the complete truth just like all of your correspondents from Anastasia Dating. 

GROW UP!