Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash

[The Natural]

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

At the moment, an international team of 24 experts is investigating the plane crash. The B777-200 aircraft had a clean maintenance record and was last checked on July 11 at Malaysia Airlines’ hangar at Kuala Lumpur International Airport.

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 heading from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed on July 17 near the city of Donetsk in Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. Kiev placed the blame on the independence supporters in eastern Ukraine for shooting the plane down, but the latter insisted they did not have the means to shoot down an aircraft flying at 32,000 feet.



http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

[jone]

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

At the moment, an international team of 24 experts is investigating the plane crash. The B777-200 aircraft had a clean maintenance record and was last checked on July 11 at Malaysia Airlines’ hangar at Kuala Lumpur International Airport.

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 heading from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed on July 17 near the city of Donetsk in Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. Kiev placed the blame on the independence supporters in eastern Ukraine for shooting the plane down, but the latter insisted they did not have the means to shoot down an aircraft flying at 32,000 feet.



http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

Same source that shared the important information about the crucifixion of the 3 year old.   

[tfcrew]

Enough with the anonymous sources....

http://news.msn.com/in-depth/what-happened-the-day-flight-17-was-downed

[jone]

Here's an interactive map that is updated daily that shows the location of forces in Eastern Ukraine.  It describes a HUGE wedge that now separates Donetsk from Mother Russia.  I am not sure of the validity of the site as it is being voluntarily updated by software engineers in Dnepropetrovsk.  But it is worth a look:

http://liveuamap.com/?ll=48.17818348134903;38.37856079101561&zoom=9

[jone]

After looking at the maps and where the present fighting is, it is clear that the Ukrainian forces are attempting to encircle Lugansk and further shrink a perimeter around Donetsk.  Without the ability to re-supply, one could only assume more draconian tactics by the Russian occupiers will ensue.  My guess is that most of the Ukrainian separatists have long ago left the Russians to their own devices and melted back into the population.

While I am sure that the map cited above is of Ukrainian origin, it is compelling to read and lays out the battle, at least from one perspective.

[jone]

The Ticker claims that the DPR Prime Minister has fled to Russia.  Boroday is gone.  New PM is imported from Transnistria: Alyufeev

[Hammer2722]

More than like Putin has made him disappear after his previous comments, LOL

[Chicagoguy]

My Russian wife is a big Putin fan and believes every rumor in the Russian news. I tell her they can't ALL be true. At the same time she has absolutely no love for any of the Ukrainians. Go figure.

[jone]

I'll tell you what I can't figure:

There are a tremendous number of Russian 'Patriots' dying in Ukraine right now.  This is like a 'Bay of Pigs' disaster.  The Russian military is not intervening, and, thereby, sentencing the people that Putin duped into going to Ukraine to almost certain death. 

This is the ultimate shame on Russia.  Not only did they invade another country, supposedly their friend, but when the going gets tough the government decides to stand on the sideline and watch.

If I were a hardliner in Russia right now, I would be seriously pissed.  And if I were an Oligarch in Russia right now, I would also be seriously pissed.  This is one massive F/U by Putin.   

[krimster2]

Hi Nature Boy!
Your source "RIA Novosti" is one of the largest news agencies in Russia, operating under the purview of "The Russian Ministry of Communications and Mass Media", commonly known as "The Ministry of Propaganda" or "News for Nitwits".  I see that they've reached their target audience... 

[southernX]

My Russian wife is a big Putin fan and believes every rumor in the Russian news. I tell her they can't ALL be true. At the same time she has absolutely no love for any of the Ukrainians. Go figure.

chicago guy , im guessing your wife is over 40/45 , and is still holding true to her FSU upbringing under such culture ?

my observation is some FSU people will over time in a new country open up theri mind to the differing view points in the media , while others remain totally loyal to their roots in the FSU

SX

[jone]

Russian Drone:  Found in farmer's field in between Donetsk and Kharkiv.



US Drone:



And that is one used for border patrol.  The ones used in combat regions have weaponry.  Remember how Russia claimed that it had shot down a US Drone in Crimea to excite the idiots?

[I/O]

over 40/45 , and is still holding true to her FSU upbringing under such culture ?

Not only - there's plenty of young'uns see Putin as the father of  modern Russia. Wifey was locked in a debate with a  couple of them recently and they even resorted to arguing that our new sources were out dated because we were so far away, Europe is firmly behind Russia and anything emanating from Washington was lies (they were probably closest on the third point). The irony was, the 'latest' news they were quoting was 3 - 4 days old here. ~shrugs~.

[calmissile]

Not only - there's plenty of young'uns see Putin as the father of  modern Russia. Wifey was locked in a debate with a  couple of them recently and they even resorted to arguing that our new sources were out dated because we were so far away, Europe is firmly behind Russia and anything emanating from Washington was lies (they were probably closest on the third point). The irony was, the 'latest' news they were quoting was 3 - 4 days old here. ~shrugs~.

Must be an interesting household.   

[jone]

Russia is now moving up helicopters to the border.  Then this:

http://russian.rt.com/article/43006

For those who don't read Russian, it says that Russia is blaming Kyiv for shooting across the border.  A classic statement for those who wish to invade.

Putin is all in.  He's losing the war in Ukraine.  What other choice does he have but to invade?

[Drew]

How can decent persons living anywhere in the world be giving support to the actions of Russian terrorists operating in eastern Ukraine?

[Manny]

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

At the moment, an international team of 24 experts is investigating the plane crash. The B777-200 aircraft had a clean maintenance record and was last checked on July 11 at Malaysia Airlines’ hangar at Kuala Lumpur International Airport.

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 heading from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed on July 17 near the city of Donetsk in Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. Kiev placed the blame on the independence supporters in eastern Ukraine for shooting the plane down, but the latter insisted they did not have the means to shoot down an aircraft flying at 32,000 feet.



http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

You are preaching to the wrong audience, Natural.

[jone]

I'm just curious: 

We've got a couple people on here who obviously support the Russian media and their position.  In various reports today, farmers in the border areas of Russia have been advised to do any harvesting prior to August 3rd (as if the Russian government would broadcast such news to the farmers prior to an invasion).

What is your position if the Russian armed forces do invade Ukraine in the next week or two?  Are you for it?  Endorsing it?  What?

Manny? 

Natural?

GQ?

LivefromUkraine? 

Fathertime!?

What are your positions on an invasion by Russian forces?

It can no longer be ignored that this is a possibility.

[fathertime]

I'm just curious: 

We've got a couple people on here who obviously support the Russian media and their position.  In various reports today, farmers in the border areas of Russia have been advised to do any harvesting prior to August 3rd (as if the Russian government would broadcast such news to the farmers prior to an invasion).

What is your position if the Russian armed forces do invade Ukraine in the next week or two?  Are you for it?  Endorsing it?  What?

Manny? 

Natural?

GQ?

LivefromUkraine? 

Fathertime!?

What are your positions on an invasion by Russian forces?

It can no longer be ignored that this is a possibility.

I'd be delighted to give my opinion soon...truly....even though it might be taken badly.  BUT  why don't you give your opinion what you think Ukraine should be doing NOW? Negotiating further or fighting? I believe it is in their hands how this goes going forward.  Botheious and Muzh already declined to give their opinions on what Ukraine should be doing right now, and I assert it is because they are afraid they will make the wrong choice.  Are you also afraid to voice your opinion about what Ukraine should be doing right now?  I think you WILL stand up and be heard...but not many others are willing to be.  Whaddya say?

Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

No, we have both given our opinions.  You just either didn't understand, or didn't like, the answers.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I'm just curious: 

We've got a couple people on here who obviously support the Russian media and their position.  In various reports today, farmers in the border areas of Russia have been advised to do any harvesting prior to August 3rd (as if the Russian government would broadcast such news to the farmers prior to an invasion).

What is your position if the Russian armed forces do invade Ukraine in the next week or two?  Are you for it?  Endorsing it?  What?

Manny? 

Natural?

GQ?

LivefromUkraine? 

Fathertime!?

What are your positions on an invasion by Russian forces?

It can no longer be ignored that this is a possibility.

Jone, you have some comprehension problems if you think I support Russia media or Putin. 

I'm not sure why being critical of western involvement automatically equals supporting Russia. 

[Misha]

BUT  why don't you give your opinion what you think Ukraine should be doing NOW?

Here is my opinion: the Ukrainian Army must continue its present course, which is to win back the territories still held by the mercenaries. They must continue to do this while trying to minimize the loss of civilian life. Hopefully, they can succeed in finally securing the border and create an easily defined buffer zone between the Russian border and the remaining mercenaries as to stop the flow of new mercenaries and arms into Ukraine from Russia. Having cut off this supply of troops and supplies, it will be only a matter of time before the remaining mercenaries flee, give up, are arrested, or failing any of the former are killed. Once Ukraine finally imposes some semblance of law and order, then at some point new elections can be held for the V. Rada and the political process of deciding what course Ukraine should take will be begin.

[jone]

In the present situation, I believe that Ukraine's actions are appropriate.  Here's why:

1.  In the aftermath of MH17, Russia has to either escalate or de-escalate.  A unified Europe (and now I mean all of Europe, not just the EU) is aghast at the idea of arming a bunch of insurgents with BUK missile systems.   In spite of all of the conspiracy theories that abound, the uniform point of view by (almost) all governmental bodies is that the plane was shot down by Russian Separatists operating in Ukraine.

Accordingly, if de-escalation occurs (not likely) the Ukrainians mop up the remainder of the insurgents and get on with their Western style government implementation.

2.  If Russia escalates (as appears to be happening) it forces Russia's hand.  Russia either has to, eventually, be "All In" or eventually takes it on the chin.  After all, Ukrainian forces are forcing the Donbas fighters into a circle of about 20 miles now.   Each day that circle gets smaller and the ability to re-supply become more problematic.  With the world watching, this is no longer Chechnya or Georgia.   Russia is being laid bare as an aggressor nation.  It becomes an outcast and Europe begins the process of looking elsewhere for Natural Gas (can you say 'Fracking'?)

3.  There is a peace plan that (apparently) was floated by Germany which leaves Crimea intact (with German recognition) for Russian removal of all forces from Eastern Ukraine.  No membership in NATO, yahdeyahdeyah.   This is NOT what Putin wants, even though you have stated that this is a win/win for both countries.  Putin only wins if Ukraine is destabilized.  Otherwise he would have left well enough alone after slipping the Mickey to those Crimeans.  Having Ukraine still fighting, possibly opens the door for such a plan (although the possibilty is remote).

4.  The Ukrainian military, with a gun to their head, have demonstrated a reasonable ability to fight.  Not against the Russian regulars, mind you, but against all of the equipment and some 'advisors' who have come across the border.

5.  In a nationwide poll of Russians, the great majority are in favor of the Annexation of Krim, and the Nationalistic Spirit that has swept the country.  However, by only a slight majority (52%) do they believe that Russia should declare war on Ukraine.  And that is after months of the constant characterization of the Fascists and Baby Killers of Kyiv.  Frankly, the Russians don't want to see their children coming home in body bags.  Given that a war with Ukraine will certainly be fought with substantial casualties, it would be hard to believe that the government could possibly hide such casualties from the public. 

If Doll is to be believed (and her sentiments are not far from my many friends that I still have in Russia) then there is no great support for a war.  If people are believing what is coming out of formerly occupied cities, then the people fighting on behalf of LPR and DPR are nothing other than professional soldiers and or malcontents. 

I would like to believe that Russia is doing, exactly as Putin has had it do in many other situations, as much as it can to destabilize the region (and the country of Ukraine) but is unwilling to make the next step.  But I would not be willing to bet the farm on that.  Should Russia come across with everything they have (and that is exactly what they would to to mitigate losses) then there would be an immediate response from Europe and the US.  I am quite sure that such was discussed in the phone call, yesterday, between Obama and Putin.

[fathertime]

Here is my opinion: the Ukrainian Army must continue its present course, which is to win back the territories still held by the mercenaries. They must continue to do this while trying to minimize the loss of civilian life. Hopefully, they can succeed in finally securing the border and create an easily defined buffer zone between the Russian border and the remaining mercenaries as to stop the flow of new mercenaries and arms into Ukraine from Russia. Having cut off this supply of troops and supplies, it will be only a matter of time before the remaining mercenaries flee, give up, are arrested, or failing any of the former are killed. Once Ukraine finally imposes some semblance of law and order, then at some point new elections can be held for the V. Rada and the political process of deciding what course Ukraine should take will be begin.

Thanks Misha, you have stated something that could possibly happen (but I don't think Russia will allow it)


...Boethius claims she has stated her opinion on what Ukraine should do right now...but she hasn't, nor has Muzh......


Fight or Negotiate?  Or something else?




Fathertime!   

[jone]

Jone, you have some comprehension problems if you think I support Russia media or Putin. 

I'm not sure why being critical of western involvement automatically equals supporting Russia.

I was just curious what you thought.  Thank you, very much, for sharing.