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Author Topic: Ukraine Can Win  (Read 72995 times)

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Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2015, 12:46:58 PM »
"Welcome to Canada's unofficial war"

In the finest tradition of everyday Canadians knowing what's right and acting on it...

As the government of Ukraine has found a way around Washington's, NATO, EU's and the western allies abandonment of Ukraine and procured badly needed weapons/equipment so has Canada's Ukrainian community (backed by a significant number of Canadians of non Ukrainian descent, I might add) by passed the Canadian government's reticence to break from the pack (C'mon, Mr. Harper you know you want to) and has gone into the military supply business themselves....

Bypassing official channels, Canada's Ukrainian diaspora finances and fights a war against Russia

Some excerpts...

..."They're doing everything from raising private funds to providing supplies to troops – and even taking up arms on the front lines. As Mark MacKinnon reports, Ukrainian-Canadians aren't content leaving the defence of their homeland up to Ottawa."...

..."The fight for Ukraine is associated, naturally enough, with the blue-and-yellow hues of the country’s flag. But in the struggle to hold back Russian-backed rebels in the east, a second pair of colours is increasingly seen: the red and white of the Canadian flag."...

And this is significant...

..."And some – a handful – have taken up arms. While Canadians who have gone to join the fight in Syria have had their passports revoked, at least one Ukrainian-Canadian who joined a pro-government militia and fought in the Lugansk region has returned to Canada to help raise money for Army SOS. He hopes to recruit other Canadians to the front line.

This uncharted territory is not without risks. Most obviously, the fundraising campaign is going where no country, including Canada, is willing to go – supplying sometimes-lethal equipment to Ukrainian fighters, including irregulars. By circumventing official channels in both Canada and Ukraine,"...

This is really good news. Canadian vets have been held back because of the fear of losing their benefits, passports and anything else associated with being labeled a 'Mercenary'. It's a criminal offence in Canada.

If the Canadian government is willing to turn a blind eye to Canadians (vets) 'volunteering for a vacation' in eastern Ukraine it could open a door for some real, albeit not officially authorized, support from Canada.

Read the article, it's well worth it as there's some uplifting information and pics for Ukraine supporters.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ukraine-canadas-unofficial-war/article23208129/

Bravo Zulu Canada's Ukraine Diaspora, Bravo Zulu!

Brass

« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 12:48:36 PM by Brasscasing »
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Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #126 on: February 26, 2015, 02:13:37 PM »
A very good article Brass!  :clapping: :clapping:

Offline Darth_Budda

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #127 on: February 26, 2015, 04:52:35 PM »
The situation in Ukraine is very dangerous.

With the propaganda machine going full steam in the good old USA, I see what could be the start to a new cold war, which will only benefit the super rich.

People from around the world are joining both sides. I doubt very much if their is any political will for Americans to send troops. I think the Majority of Americans want no part of the Ukrainian Civil War.

I don't know anyone fighting for Kiev, but I know one American who is fighting in the 404 ghost Battalion/group. He is in Donetsk right now.

It is hard to say were this will all go...

I thought after the first cease fire the DPR might of been destroyed or pushed back, but after the airport it is hard to doubt their resolve..
Either way this has been truly disastrous to Ukraine and the DPR..
We need a government of action to fight for working families!
Caleb Maupin

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #128 on: February 26, 2015, 05:33:09 PM »
The situation in Ukraine is very dangerous.

With the propaganda machine going full steam in the good old USA, I see what could be the start to a new cold war, which will only benefit the super rich.

People from around the world are joining both sides. I doubt very much if their is any political will for Americans to send troops. I think the Majority of Americans want no part of the Ukrainian Civil War.

I don't know anyone fighting for Kiev, but I know one American who is fighting in the 404 ghost Battalion/group. He is in Donetsk right now.

It is hard to say were this will all go...

I thought after the first cease fire the DPR might of been destroyed or pushed back, but after the airport it is hard to doubt their resolve..
Either way this has been truly disastrous to Ukraine and the DPR..

I would disagree with you with the" propaganda machine going full steam in the good old USA" comment. I don't think the US media or edit: administration is going anywhere near the Russian invasion of Ukraine to any great degree at all.

I can turn on my TV and watch hours of commentary and analysis on Bobbi Kristina Brown or US efforts regarding ISIL. However, except for some print news commentary there's little on Ukraine. In fact, I'd say except for John McCain and a few like minded politicians speaking out the US media is avoiding the issue like the plague.

"I think the Majority of Americans want no part of the Ukrainian Civil War." And they'd probably be correct if this were a (Ukrainian) civil war but it's not, it's an invasion by Russia.

You're right about it being a dangerous situation. However, my reasoning for the danger might differ from yours. I believe the cold war has already started and to do nothing about Russia's aggression is where the danger lies because if allowed to continue Putin will not stop at Ukraine.

Having said that my sole interest right now is the plight of Ukraine and it's people. As far as I'm concerned there are countries in the EU that deserve a wee knock on their front door from Mad Vlad.

I wonder how long it would take for Germany or France to invoke Article 5 or scream for US military aid if the 'polite people' started showing up within their borders.


Brass
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 05:40:12 PM by Brasscasing »
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2015, 05:40:46 PM »
The situation in Ukraine is very dangerous.

With the propaganda machine going full steam in the good old USA, I see what could be the start to a new cold war, which will only benefit the super rich.

People from around the world are joining both sides. I doubt very much if their is any political will for Americans to send troops. I think the Majority of Americans want no part of the Ukrainian Civil War.

I don't know anyone fighting for Kiev, but I know one American who is fighting in the 404 ghost Battalion/group. He is in Donetsk right now.

It is hard to say were this will all go...

I thought after the first cease fire the DPR might of been destroyed or pushed back, but after the airport it is hard to doubt their resolve..
Either way this has been truly disastrous to Ukraine and the DPR..

A lot of platitudes short on fact.  May play well on Ron Paul boards and OFA meet ups but not around here where people actually think.  nice try though

Offline Darth_Budda

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2015, 05:46:43 PM »
Well the polite men did one heck of a job in Crimea. I don't think the USA ever managed to take over a land with out a fight like Russia did..

To me it seems odd... If Canada invaded my town I would grab the AR-15 and defend my land.. I think most people would.. So the complete lack of fighting leaves me to think the Majority of people wanted to join Russia...

I should also add my friend in Donetsk says their are no Russian military their... Russian speaking volunteers sure, but their are also international volunteers from many places...

The Propaganda I see is mostly online and from major news agencies like NPR. Their coverage has been completely one sided "American government side."

So far the best place I have seen for news is vice news and the Facebook accounts from people on both sides...

We need a government of action to fight for working families!
Caleb Maupin

Offline Darth_Budda

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2015, 05:48:28 PM »
A lot of platitudes short on fact.  May play well on Ron Paul boards and OFA meet ups but not around here where people actually think.  nice try though

I am a Socialist/Communist not a Libertarian.

Notice the Marx signature..

Ron Paul is a Racist and his economic policies are just,,, bad...
We need a government of action to fight for working families!
Caleb Maupin

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2015, 06:36:42 PM »
http://crime.in.ua/news/20150225/donetsk-partizany

Partisans blew up war material in Donetsk.

Nice if I could see it, but the website has banned my country!  :'(

Offline Darth_Budda

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2015, 06:44:27 PM »
Nice if I could see it, but the website has banned my country!  :'(

You would think freedom of press and speech would be of high priority in a democracy...

It worked for me,,, just use a proxy masker,, and bounce off a US server...
We need a government of action to fight for working families!
Caleb Maupin

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #134 on: February 26, 2015, 09:51:15 PM »
Well the polite men did one heck of a job in Crimea. I don't think the USA ever managed to take over a land with out a fight like Russia did..

To me it seems odd... If Canada invaded my town I would grab the AR-15 and defend my land.. I think most people would.. So the complete lack of fighting leaves me to think the Majority of people wanted to join Russia...

I should also add my friend in Donetsk says their are no Russian military their... Russian speaking volunteers sure, but their are also international volunteers from many places...

The Propaganda I see is mostly online and from major news agencies like NPR. Their coverage has been completely one sided "American government side."

So far the best place I have seen for news is vice news and the Facebook accounts from people on both sides...

Well the polite men did one heck of a job in Crimea. I don't think the USA ever managed to take over a land with out a fight like Russia did..

Yeah they did (for the most part). The Russian army were all over the place, prepared and well armed. By the time Kiev understood what was going on it was all over.

You might want to look up and read (or watch) buddy comrade Strelkov's version of events in Crimea. If the translation of this interview on screen is accurate it's quite illuminating...

 Edit: I've removed the para above as it was statements made by Strelkov over the course of two responses in the debate not a single quote and appears to be not as accurate as the attached video cc.



Edit:(interesting portion of the debate starts at about 45:30 minutes with English subtitles)

To me it seems odd... If Canada invaded my town I would grab the AR-15 and defend my land.. I think most people would.. So the complete lack of fighting leaves me to think the Majority of people wanted to join Russia...

Would you? What if there were unmarked Canadian soldiers already occupying every part of your town, police stations, army barracks and holding your local officials at gunpoint with soldiers up and down your street armed with everything from assault rifles to grenades and light machine guns,  casually pointed in your and your neighbors, family and everything else you hold dear's direction?

Would you grab your AR-15 and subdue all 400 or 1400 or 4000 Canadians?...Or would you realize that you might get a round or two off before getting cut to pieces and maybe the rest of your family, friends and property as well, not to mention the punitive measures that might befall the rest of your family for defending your land, whaddya think?

Not to mention that unlike the US, Ukraine has gun laws and most citizens aren't armed.

I should also add my friend in Donetsk says their are no Russian military their... Russian speaking volunteers sure, but their are also international volunteers from many places...

The Propaganda I see is mostly online and from major news agencies like NPR. Their coverage has been completely one sided "American government side."

So far the best place I have seen for news is vice news and the Facebook accounts from people on both sides...

Your friend is fighting for the Russians. I doubt you're getting anything from him that isn't party approved for dissemination. However, I'm not going to change your mind nor you mine so if you post something I think needs debate I'll take it up with you then. ;)

Brass
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 12:14:27 AM by Brasscasing »
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2015, 10:05:45 PM »
I am a Socialist/Communist not a Libertarian.

I admire a man who says what he means and means what he says.

I also agree with the idea that the only difference between Socialism and Communism is one of degree.

That said, there's no way in heck you are a Communist.  Communists don't believe in being open about who they are.  You are what a communist would call a useful idiot.  You are great for the Demoralization and crisis phase of Communist subversion campaigns.  But you are the first one killed in the normalization phase.

So good luck with that.

There is hope for you.  Orwell recanted.  No doubt you will too if you are really honest with yourself and the world.

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #136 on: February 26, 2015, 10:10:27 PM »
I admire a man who says what he means and means what he says.

I also agree with the idea that the only difference between Socialism and Communism is one of degree.

That said, there's no way in heck you are a Communist.  Communists don't believe in being open about who they are.  You are what a communist would call a useful idiot.  You are great for the Demoralization and crisis phase of Communist subversion campaigns.  But you are the first one killed in the normalization phase.

So good luck with that.

There is hope for you.  Orwell recanted.  No doubt you will too if you are really honest with yourself and the world.

Excellent post.  What you wrote about people being killed in the normalization phase is key.

America's version of Communism is Al Sharpton, the Black Panthers and all the violent rioters who hate people who work hard for what they have (their business) and do their best to steal their American dream by stealing all of their merchandise and burning the business to the ground:  just like what Lenin and Stalin did to the Kulaks of Ukraine and to all successful private business owners in Ukraine and Russia.

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #137 on: February 26, 2015, 11:27:19 PM »
Excellent post.  What you wrote about people being killed in the normalization phase is key.

 just like what Lenin and Stalin did to the Kulaks of Ukraine and to all successful private business owners in Ukraine and Russia.

 You mean like the Soviets er ah Russian's did in Krym by 'Nationalizing' the businesses, ship yards and even bakeries??

Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2015, 06:56:25 PM »
It will take time to see more accurate numbers-- but it seems like a "smaller" disaster than Ilovaisk


Jay's math:    6000-8000 government troops in Debaltseve, minus a few hundred prisoners, minus a handful of dead (according to Poroshenko) = < 2500 who made it out


Even if we use the low estimate of 6000, more than 3000 government soldiers are unaccounted for. I'd love to hear your explanation of how this was a smaller disaster than Ilovaisk.


Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2015, 07:17:30 PM »

Jay's math:    6000-8000 government troops in Debaltseve, minus a few hundred prisoners, minus a handful of dead (according to Poroshenko) = < 2500 who made it out


Even if we use the low estimate of 6000, more than 3000 government soldiers are unaccounted for. I'd love to hear your explanation of how this was a smaller disaster than Ilovaisk.

Tom's math-- according to you there are no Russians fighting in Ukraine after invading !!You want to explain 6500  dead Russian invaders in eastern Ukraine?  So Tom--your figure is zero Russian military in Ukraine--how many post on forums have you made asserting that!@!So tell us Tom, so we are all clear-- are there Russians in Ukraine conducting a war against Ukraine?

My maths- was that my estimate of the number of Ukrainian troops actually trapped? Or in the area? The numbers dead and unaccounted  is factually lower than  Ilovaisk ( where btw-- your Russian trash shot unarmed men attempting to leave as per agreement)
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2015, 07:25:13 PM »
Tom's math-- according to you there are no Russians fighting in Ukraine after invading !!You want to explain 6500  dead Russian invaders in eastern Ukraine?  So Tom--your figure is zero Russian military in Ukraine--how many post on forums have you made asserting that!@!So tell us Tom, so we are all clear-- are there Russians in Ukraine conducting a war against Ukraine?

My maths- was that my estimate of the number of Ukrainian troops actually trapped? Or in the area? The numbers dead and unaccounted  is factually lower than  Ilovaisk ( where btw-- your Russian trash shot unarmed men attempting to leave as per agreement)


I never claimed that there was no Russian military in Ukraine.


Be that as it may, it was great timing that this all went down within a few days of your absurd assertion that Ukraine can win.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2015, 08:01:58 PM »
I think you are missing the big picture, Tom.  Russia could likely overtake Ukraine militarily.  However, Ukraine is very different now than it was in 1917, or even in 1991. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Steamer

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2015, 08:44:34 PM »
I think you are missing the big picture, Tom.  Russia could likely overtake Ukraine militarily.  However, Ukraine is very different now than it was in 1917, or even in 1991.


True, the world is a different place but what does that mean for Ukraine?
Life ain't nothing but a poker game
And no two hands are quite the same
But I never saw a winner that didn't bet

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2015, 08:46:47 PM »
It means it is not going to be controlled by Moscow anymore.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Steamer

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2015, 08:53:10 PM »
It means it is not going to be controlled by Moscow anymore.


Understood.
Life ain't nothing but a poker game
And no two hands are quite the same
But I never saw a winner that didn't bet

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #145 on: March 01, 2015, 08:56:01 PM »
Now, whether Ukraine can be ruled by its populace, and can sideline oligarchs, is a very different issue.  It is also one that, unfortunately, can't be addressed because of the war.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Steamer

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #146 on: March 01, 2015, 09:01:40 PM »
Now, whether Ukraine can be ruled by its populace, and can sideline oligarchs, is a very different issue.  It is also one that, unfortunately, can't be addressed because of the war.


This could or should be the next war.
Life ain't nothing but a poker game
And no two hands are quite the same
But I never saw a winner that didn't bet

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #147 on: March 01, 2015, 11:59:24 PM »

This could or should be the next war.

You know, if this does go nuclear, Putin will kill you and me.

Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #148 on: March 02, 2015, 12:43:44 PM »
I think you are missing the big picture, Tom.  Russia could likely overtake Ukraine militarily.  However, Ukraine is very different now than it was in 1917, or even in 1991.


I didn't come here to address the "big picture." I noticed that members are largely ignoring Jay's rants so I decided to give him some of the attention that he craves and, in the process, express my opinion about the preposterous notion that Ukraine can win.


Perhaps Ukraine can win, if we apply Winston Churchill's famous words:
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine Can Win
« Reply #149 on: March 02, 2015, 02:17:33 PM »
Interesting think piece.


Russia depends on Ukraine to be able to fulfill it's military aspirations
?


Introduction
The top-level analysis of Russia's motivations to intervene in Ukrainian affairs is provided in [1]. Currently there is almost a consensus on the matter by now, namely pointing at:
the imperial aspirations of the Russian federation and Vladimir Putin,
the need to protect Russian-speaking compatriots,
fear of NATO expansion into Ukraine, which will give Russia an extra 2.000 kms of border with NATO.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/russia-needs-ukraine-to-fulfill-its.html
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

 

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