Putin is Ruining Russia

[Boethius]

This too.
Boe, speaking of "who started all this"- "all this" actually started in 2004 in Ukraine by Ukraninans. You know what I am talking about.
In October 2013 happened what happened but the whole thing dates 2004.

The Orange Revolution did have some positives for Ukraine.  As a result of the Orange Revolution, Ukraine is not an authoritarian state, and it does have free and fair elections.Personally, I don't believe that setting Ukrainian as the national language of Ukraine, with linguistic rights for minorities, is a horrible thing.

[Gator]

Manny,

I read something today that tells me much about European mettle, or lack thereof. 

http://nypost.com/2014/07/30/al-qaeda-raised-125m-in-kidnapping-ransom-money-since-2008/

[Doll]

The Orange Revolution did have some positives for Ukraine.  As a result of the Orange Revolution, Ukraine is not an authoritarian state, and it does have free and fair elections.Personally, I don't believe that setting Ukrainian as the national language of Ukraine, with linguistic rights for minorities, is a horrible thing.

Agree 300%
Gradually, it's become what we have now.
It took 10 years to make two nations almost enemies.
OMG- Russians and Ukrainians kill each other! Can't believe it.
Sorry for "off topic"
Now we are back in blaming Putin for "all this".
 
Boe, back in 2004 (and  for 10 years) who needed it?
 

[Boethius]

Russians and Ukrainians weren't enemies, and I'm not sure they are now, either.  However, had Russia not interfered in Crimea and Donetsk/Luhansk, the situation would have been as it was.  That fact that Russians manipulated a so called "referendum" in Crimea, killed Ukrainian soldiers there (who in all likelihood, were at least part ethnically Russian), and then funded pro separatist forces all the way to Kharkiv is what has exacerbated tensions between the countries.

I think change was needed in 2004, as elections were rigged.  The failure of the Orange Revolution was in allowing oligarchs to de facto rule the country*.  That is the case now, as well.


*Plus, Yushchenko is not particularly bright, and Tymoshenko is a thief.

[Muzh]

Manny, It sounds as if you are one of those Brits who cater to the wealthy Russians buying Britain.   Do you answer "Yes sir boss" when they ask you to jump? 

Actually, it would be "How High?"

Anyway, have you noticed how fascism in Europe is growing in stature? You have the French, the British, the Greeks all matching in number with the Russians.


Ah, Europe circa 1933 all over again. Can you smell it?

[Muzh]

Maybe I should put this in the "Time for Some Humor' section:

(Russian Foreign Secretary) Lavrov is applying to the UN Security Council today to bring Russian 'peace keeping forces' into Ukraine to secure the MH17 site. 

Don't know about you readers, but it struck my funny bone.  I kept on wondering to myself if these were the same peace keeping forces that Putin sent to Crimea.

Boy, how quickly we forget. Heh


These are the exact same peace-keeping forces he sent to Akhbazia and Osetia.


Remember how effective they were?

[Doll]

That fact that Russians manipulated a so called "referendum" in Crimea

This is what you think- it is not a fact, but your opinion.
 

[Muzh]

Well, would rather prefer the Clintons? David Petraeus? Lawrence Summers; Robert Zoellick, Carl Bildt; Shimon Peres; How'bout Tony Blair? Maybe Gerhard Shroeder; Dominique Strauss-Kahn; Mario Monti; Dalia Grybauskaite; Radel Sikorski?

Oh, last but not least, William Richardson perhaps?

Now, if these aren't good enough, how about Hunter Biden? Maybe David Leiter? Heck, John Kerry himself, perhaps? or maybe his S-I-L, Christopher Heinz? How'bout Devon Archer?

http://time.com/2964493/ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-burisma/

Take your pick, man...

I'd be interested in what Gerhard Schroeder would have to say. 


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/european-parliament-wants-to-muzzle-ukraine-comments-from-schroeder-a-958497.html

[Boethius]

This is what you think- it is not a fact, but your opinion.

It is a fact, Doll.  Some areas had 123% turn out for the vote.  A Russian reporter, who lives in Russia and works for a Russian newspaper, was given ballots to vote at two separate ridings.  Furthermore, one third of the population boycotted that hastily called referendum, which also had an unclear question.

Russian troops were present and took over Ukrainian military bases, disarming, and killing, Ukrainian officers (3, I believe, were killed).

The issue is not whether Crimeans would have voted to join Russia.  They very well may have.  But the way it was done was in fact, an invasion.  The annexation was illegal by international law.  That is why international ships are not docking in Crimea, why foreign banks have closed there, and why Turkey won't allow Crimean boats to dock at their ports.

[Misha]

It ain't America's to give away. But an interesting window into your thinking.

Nor is it Russia's.

[Misha]

Hey Misha, that was a part of the article you quoted.  They are the author's words so he would have to be asked that question.

Fathertime!

The author is swimming in naiveté. It would be unconscionable for Ukraine to abandon chunks of its territory to bandits and narcissistic commanders leading some twisted holy war (Strelkov banned his mercenaries soldiers from swearing as he says that they are a Russian Orthodox Army and he has a penchant for dressing up, imagining himself an officer in the Imperial Russian Army    )

[Doll]

Boe, it amazes me how many "facts" you know for sure 

[GQBlues]

Where is the smoking gun, GQ?  Or do you simply make this all up in your mind for your own amusement and subject the forum to it.  You have never once showed any valid evidence that the US was involved in Maidan.  And we know you aren't going to show it now.

Your grand evidence?  Victoria Nuland's phone call?  Hey everyone, GQ bases his whole foreign policy diatribe on Victoria Nuland's phone call where she gives an opinion that she doesn't want Yulia Tymoshenko as the next President! 

Show us some evidence, GQ.  No more insults.  Just evidence.  We're betting you don't have any.

Evidence? LMAO! Okay...

...I said nothing about things being planned and stoked prior to Lt. Washburn appearing in Philly. Please show me exactly where in my posts I said that.  That is your imagination.  Just like you saying that Lt. Washburn is a feminist.  Most women officers in the armed services flatly deny anything about being feminist. 

My family is and was a military family.  Two of my three sisters were officers.  One in the Army, one in the Marines.  My third sister is married to a Marine.  My dad was an officer in the Navy and I was Army, ROTC  (I went Reserve.)

All of the women in my family are disdainful of the word feminist.  Although, to be fair, I believe your definition of feminism probably agrees with their definition of women in the workplace and of sexual equality, having read you for a year now.  They believe in that.

I think that the people reading this forum would be much more understanding of your use of the word 'Feminism' if you would re-couch it as those two concepts above.  Just as an exercise, pick any officer in any armed service, GQ, and ask them if they are feminists.  Why don't you do it and report back to us your results.  I did it today with all three of my sisters as we were talking about Christmas presents flying back and forth for nieces and nephews.    They all scoff at your use of this term.  And with good reason.  But they do subscribe to your basic premises that you have consistently supported.

LOL, I was nice enough to you to give you the meaning of the words "feminist" & "feminism" as you obviously had no clue but went on to speak for an entire population of females in the military over something you were clueless about.

Then if that wasn't enough, you said this...

...While the good ole'  US of A exports all types of business and commercial activity into other countries, *we have a very generous attitude towards countries coming into our lands*.  Toyota; Samsung; Volkswagon; there are countless imports....

Like I said jone, educating you to what you think you understand is not my job. I like watching you make a fool of yourself time and again...on your own.

Besides, I'd hate to see *the same BABY crying again*, LOL.

[Boethius]

Boe, it amazes me how many "facts" you know for sure 

  All of this has been reported widely, and mostly by independent observers, such as the OSCE and the UN.

I include the Russian reporter's experience as I assume it is accurate.  Had it come from a Ukrainian paper, I would have been more skeptical.

I am old enough to remember KGB disinformation campaigns in the 1980's.  I recognized most of them as well.  I was too young to have witnessed the Sinyavsky and Daniel trials of the early 1970's, but when I read about them (in the 1980's), I wrote a paper and stated they were KGB show trials.  There were lots of factors underneath, if examined, which indicated this was the case.  My theory was not well received, as at the time, they were prominent "dissidents".  After the Soviet collapse. my theory proved to have been accurate.

[Doll]

sure- everything was reported

[Boethius]

Everything I have posted was.


To understand something, one needs to look at various sources, from various perspectives.  It is sort of like discerning what was really happening in the USSR by reading between the lines of Izvestia and Pravda (if you bothered to read them at all).

[Muzh]

On Jone's link that talks about the Togliatti car plants suspending operations, that is nothing unusual and often happens around August time. My wife is from there so I know this. So I wouldn't read much into that. Likewise, Russia wont threaten the big VW plant as the German money has transformed the regions surrounding it, and Germany is an important partner for Russia. The statement will be aimed squarely at Chevy production there.

You'll have to forgive Jone but the good ol' chap is too intuned with American manufacturing standards that he doesn't understand the European mentality of shutting down a perfectly operating manufacturing site. Maybe a glut in cars that no one can afford to buy?

As mentioned before, the sanctions - for what they are - will have minimal long term effect and be minimally implemented by the EU as the EU needs Russia's gas. You cant have it all ways. If the EU pushes Russia, it will put the gas price up to make up for it.

Want to bet your business on it? Heh, heh, heh : D

Had the EU and the US not tried to bring Ukraine into the EU's orbit, none of this would have happened. Had they have accepted the eastern regions breaking away, allowing Russia non-EU land access to Crimea, he would have settled for that is my guess.

I agree with you 100%. No one anticipated the carrot offered to Ukraine by the US and EU was so enticing that they would risk life and limb to try what we in the West all take for granted; the Rule of law. Ukraine to a step of standing up and told Russia they were no more their "little brother" and instead should deal them as equals. But of course, this is hard to understand by someone who feels all Ukrainian women are whores.

Where we are now is America - whether it realises it or not - is pushing for a war with Russia by its behaviour. You'll only push a bear so far into a hole with a stick until it turns on you. Fighting Russia in its own backyard will not be like bombing some blokes in a tent in the desert.

One thing we can say about Russia is it does not seek to impose its will across the world. Can we say the same of America?

LMFAO


Once an imperialist always an imperialist, eh Stuart? Hints of jealousy? BTW, I hear Argentina needs cash. There is a great opportunity, again, for you to feel important.

[Doll]

Everything I have posted was

Again- no doubt

[GQBlues]

I'd be interested in what Gerhard Schroeder would have to say. 


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/european-parliament-wants-to-muzzle-ukraine-comments-from-schroeder-a-958497.html

Gazprom will remain solvent regardless of sanctions and Shroeder will be fine. When winter bites, his critics will fall silent again. His attendance in that little gathering was in quasi-support of the little contingent Russia had.

I am elated to read the little ending paragraph to the article from Der Spiegel though...

But perhaps Schröder's detractors shouldn't get too carried away. The mass-circulation daily Bild on Thursday quoted conservative former longtime German chancellor Helmut Kohl of Merkel's Christian Democrats accusing the West, including the EU, of lacking sensitivity in its dealings with Putin. Addressing the crisis in Ukraine, the elderly statesman said there had been "major lapses" by the West in recent years. He added that the "atmosphere of departure in Ukraine is no longer being accompanied by prudence" on the part of the West.

 

[Boethius]

Well, Kohl should know.  His diplomacy while in office was one of the factors which lead to the Balkan war.

[GQBlues]

Meanwhile in western Ukraine:

  [/size]

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[GQBlues]

Well, Kohl should know.  His diplomacy while in office was one of the factors which lead to the Balkan war.

You sure it wasn't the arming of the KLA by the US?

[Muzh]

Damn Boe, you beat me to it.

[Boethius]

The reason for this, GQ, is that the majority of the units are from Western Ukraine, and they've borne the brunt of injuries and death.  The majority of those soldiers are draftees, and they were sent to battle with little training.


Things have improved now that a military man is defence minister.

[Boethius]

You sure it wasn't the arming of the KLA by the US?

The KLA was much later.