The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[Belvis]

For those who denied Russian troops were in Ukraine -


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11506774/Separatist-fighter-admits-Russian-tanks-troops-decisive-in-eastern-Ukraine-battles.html

Hah, if you accept what  this  man  said in the interview then you have to accept the following: he said the rebels have taken 300 captives from foreign military including americans  in Debaltsevo.

[Boethius]

He has no reason to lie about Russian troops.  He does have reason to lie about foreign fighters.


I have never denied there may be foreigners fighting among battalions.  But I suspect any Americans fighting are diaspora Ukrainians.  If the US army were fighting in Ukraine (as Russian propaganda trolls claim), the rebels would have made no gains.

[calmissile]

Hah, if you accept what  this  man  said in the interview then you have to accept the following: he said the rebels have taken 300 captives from foreign military including americans  in Debaltsevo.

I cannot find the quote you mentioned about 300 captives from foreign military including Americans.  Can you point out your quote?   thanks

[Изумруд]

For those who denied Russian troops were in Ukraine -


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11506774/Separatist-fighter-admits-Russian-tanks-troops-decisive-in-eastern-Ukraine-battles.html

Bo, you know that unless Putin says Russian troops are there it can't be true.

[Belvis]

He has no reason to lie about Russian troops.  He does have reason to lie about foreign fighters.

Very selective approach, don't you find?

I cannot find the quote you mentioned about 300 captives from foreign military including Americans.  Can you point out your quote?   thanks

Can you read the original interview in Russian?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2015/03/150325_donetsk_rebel_interview

Би-би-си: А вы видели сами этих американцев и европейцев здесь? Много их?

Д.С.: Конечно. Когда брали Дебальцево, было взято в плен порядка 300 иностранных военных (проверить эту информацию не удалось - ред.). Американцы, европейцы. Большинство из них снайперы. Инструкторов очень много. У нас инструктора в основном российские военные, а у них, естественно, западные.

[calmissile]

When I translated the original Russian version  it is noted that the statistic you mentioned cannot be verified.


BBC: have you seen the Americans and Europeans themselves here? A lot of them?

D.s.:  Of Course. When the sample Debaltseve, were taken prisoner some 300 foreign troops (unable to verify this information-ed.). Americans, Europeans. Most of them snipers. Instructors very much. We have mainly Russian military instructor, and they, naturally, Western.

[jone]

Haven't you known, Calmissile,

Someone makes an outlandish statement to the press that makes it in print or video (as outlandish and not verified) and then the selective quote, without the un-verified disclaimer is used to offset verified facts from the other side. 

It is the new logic.  Straight from the FSB talking points.

BELVIS - Show us the passports from fighters from the Western Countries.  Or take your ramblings somewhere else.  We have shown countless interviews and passports here from Russian soldiers. Your feeble attempt to offset that by trying to state that Americans and Brits were fighting as advisers for  Ukraine is nothing but a passing of wind.

Tell us again how the Jetliner was shot down by the Ukrainian Air Force!

[Belvis]

BELVIS - Show us the passports from fighters from the Western Countries.  Or take your ramblings somewhere else.  We have shown countless interviews and passports here from Russian soldiers.

Hey, ask that guy to show you the passports from fighters from the Western Countries. I prefer to believe the information from OSCE observers  there.

  As I've entrusted on myself the mission to educate you about Russian realities,  the next lesson. Russian soldiers while in active service have  military identity cards (военный билет). Only the military identity card (its form and recording there) is a firm proof that a man is in service. I saw  military identity cards in Ukrainian media but these were the cards of men in reserve, almost every adult  man in Russia have similar documents. For example I'm a senior lieutenant in reserve.
As for passports you saw I'm pretty sure there are thousands of men with Russian passports in Kiev right now. In your logic Kiev is occupied by Russian Army but I hurry to comfort you, that's not the case 

If you mean under Russian soldiers the guys from Russia who are fighting for Donbass, no need to demostrate their passports, they are shown on Russian TV.

[jone]

We bet you are a Senior Lieutenant in reserve.  I don't think that there is anyone here who disputes that you have a role in the Russian army or government.

OSCE makes absolutely no representations that US or British soldiers took part in the recent fighting.  You are smoking hashish if you think so.

But I do believe that the US will send over advisers in the future to assist in the training of Ukrainian soldiers.  It will be on TV and you will be able to watch it.  Just remember, the lies of your government prompted my government's response.

I know many Russian people.  They are not as stupid as you make them out to be.  They all know, as we do, who was sent in to Ukraine.

[Belvis]

OSCE makes absolutely no representations that US or British soldiers took part in the recent fighting.  You are smoking hashish if you think so.

You'll lose in the dispute because you don't hear others. Your weak point.  Could you please read my last posts to see what I think.
You forget to add, OSCE makes absolutely no representations that Russian Army took part in the recent fighting. I'm glad you're starting to read the quality sources. Or still rely on Vasil'eva?

[Slumba]

I think someone doesn't understand the concept of "statements against interest".

[lordtiberius]

You forget to add, OSCE makes absolutely no representations that Russian Army took part in the recent fighting. I'm glad you're starting to read the quality sources. Or still rely on Vasil'eva?

Reports from the Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk

http://www.osce.org/om/122243

OSCE has reported Russian military involvement for months.  Try again lieutenant Belvis

[Boethius]

I read the Russian BBC interview, Belvis, and not all those foreigners are American. 


I also asked my husband to read it.  His response was, "The guy is an idiot, and obviously, has never been to the army."  So, in a way, he agrees with you.


I don't believe Belvis is a Russian troll, he is giving us another perspective, and one we should listen to with respect.  I will way, however, Belvis, that the Russian narrative that Americans are in Ukraine, aiding the military, is borne of a complete lack of understanding of American society.  Were this accurate:


1.  It could not be hidden.  It would be uncovered by US media. 
2.  The Ukrainian military would be much more efficient if American military, or even mercenaries, were fighting for them.  Those guys have a lot of recent on the ground battle training.  Debaltsve would not have been the debacle it was if Americans were involved.  I used to believe American military advisors were advising Ukrainians, but based no more.
3.  If the American military were involved, the rebels would have lost long ago.  There is no reason for America to hide its involvement, if that were to occur.  I think the Americans are playing second fiddle in all of this and allowing the Europeans to take the lead role, since this is predominantly a European, not an American, issue.

[Belvis]

Reports from the Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk

http://www.osce.org/om/122243

OSCE has reported Russian military involvement for months.  Try again lieutenant Belvis

Good link which confirms your naive lie 
Sorry, LT, but OSCE reported in last months:

Military movement

At the two BCPs the OM did not observe military movement, apart from the usual vehicles of the Russian Federation Border Guard Service.

Could you give direct link and quote where OSCE said about military involvement of Russian army in Ukraine?

I read the Russian BBC interview, Belvis, and not all those foreigners are American. 

Don't repeat what I've  already said  Or I distorted somehow the interview?   

I also asked my husband to read it.  His response was, "The guy is an idiot, and obviously, has never been to the army."  So, in a way, he agrees with you.

I knew your husband is a clever man. But we have here at the forum guys who are not so clever so have to help them with propaganda antidote.

[mendeleyev]

Belvis, when Putin resumes his push toward the Black Sea, you should visit the conflict zone and see with your own eyes, regular Russian troops. I promise that you will, one hundred percent guaranteed.

What is sad among many otherwise intelligent Russians, is the foggy notion that yesterdays middle age coal miners are somehow operating sophisticated weaponry that requires extensive training and is exclusive to the Russian military. Are these folk brainwashed?

[Anotherkiwi]

What is sad among many otherwise intelligent Russians, is the foggy notion that yesterdays middle age coal miners are somehow operating sophisticated weaponry that requires extensive training and is exclusive to the Russian military. Are these folk brainwashed?

Mendy, do you remember the Gerry and Sylvia Anderson puppet shows from the 1960s - Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons, etc?  The one that comes to mind here is Joe 90 - the kid who could put on special glasses and become the world expert in whatever crisis was happening at the time.  (See the full story at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_90)

It's obvious that these wonderful Russian scientists have now perfected the glasses to include BUK manuals, and have mass-produced them for the Donetsk miners to wear! 

[Slumba]

Mendy, do you remember the Gerry and Sylvia Anderson puppet shows from the 1960s - Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons, etc?  The one that comes to mind here is Joe 90 - the kid who could put on special glasses and become the world expert in whatever crisis was happening at the time.  (See the full story at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_90)

It's obvious that these wonderful Russian scientists have now perfected the glasses to include BUK manuals, and have mass-produced them for the Donetsk miners to wear! 

That is brilliant!

I know a fellow in Brumley (formerly in Estonia), who must own a pair of these Joe 90's!

[JayH]

Are these folk brainwashed?

Brain dead is more apt description. The problem for Russians is they may well finish up dead out of all this-thanks to that brain dead approach of excusing Putin and his Kremlin cronies.

[JayH]

That is brilliant!

I know a fellow in Brumley (formerly in Estonia), who must own a pair of these Joe 90's!

Talking of brain dead morons --has there ever been a bigger know it all -know nothing anywhere?

[lordtiberius]

Belvis, you are no better than a Muslim.  Muslims will lie for Allah.  You lie for Russia.  You deny over 50% of the Novorossiyans are Russian military.  You still lie despite the evidence.  So what? 

Do you think when you see Saint Peter that Russian Orthodox Jesus will absolve you from your sins?

"He had good reasons for what he did.  He was lying for Russia."

Here is a news flash for you Lieutenant.  You're not a patriot.  A patriot doesn't deny state funerals for soldiers killed in action.  A patriot doesn't defend his country when a regime of theives intimidate and kill it's critics or engage in atrocities abroad.  A patriot opposes those things and fights for justice for all.

I mean really nothing you say matters.  You are not in Moscow and in Moscow whoever has control of Putin decides policy and you can't tell us who is control. 

You better repent now son.  You might be on vacation to Ukraine pretty soon.  Your work here isn't very valuable.

[fathertime]

Belvis, you are no better than a Muslim.  Muslims will lie for Allah.  You lie for Russia.  You deny over 50% of the Novorossiyans are Russian military.  You still lie despite the evidence.  So what? 

 

The day has already come for many around the world where you could substitute the word Americans, in terms of who will lie for their cause at all costs....

Fathertime!   

[Larry1]

Belvis, when Putin resumes his push toward the Black Sea, you should visit the conflict zone and see with your own eyes, regular Russian troops. I promise that you will, one hundred percent guaranteed.

What is sad among many otherwise intelligent Russians, is the foggy notion that yesterdays middle age coal miners are somehow operating sophisticated weaponry that requires extensive training and is exclusive to the Russian military. Are these folk brainwashed?

Yes. When I studied history during my university days I found it perplexing how popular Hitler was among the German people. Germany was a modern, civilized country, yet it supported a leader who plunged the world into a horrible war. Until this last year I did not have an appreciation for the affects of constant propaganda. I understood the ideas, for example, telling a lie and repeating it over and over until your people believe it. But it has been revealing to see just how effective this is. People exposed to this propaganda and hypernationalism accept it as the truth, no matter what evidence contradicts it.

[Belvis]

Belvis, you are no better than a Muslim.

LT, I asked you to find the quote from OCSE  about Russian military involvement, and you have generated in answer the flow of of consciousness 
OK, I'll take it as you've found nothing.

Belvis, when Putin resumes his push toward the Black Sea, you should visit the conflict zone and see with your own eyes, regular Russian troops. I promise that you will, one hundred percent guaranteed.

I agree with you that if  Putin starts the push toward the Black Sea, your critics of him become defensible. Right now you employ your perceprion about him to create fantastic projection by extrapolation of your perceprions.

Are these folk brainwashed?

No, these folk want to operate with facts and firm evidences, and not with loose perceprions and emotional accusations not supported by proof.

[Muzh]

No, these folk want to operate with facts and firm evidences, and not with loose perceprions and emotional accusations not supported by proof.

What is real evidence to you?


For example, if I post something from western media your response is that WE are brainwashed by all the western propaganda.


So, what real evidence are you willing to accept?

[Belvis]

So, what real evidence are you willing to accept?

For example, OSCE reports. The most reliable source at the present time. Тestimony of respectable men, who are not connected with ukrainian media and who can see the places there with own eyes, for example Ruban, Montyan (persons from Ukrainian side). Even Jen Psaki would be OK if she supports her words with documentary or intellegеnce evidence