Where is US Technology?

[jone]

I watched, as did everyone, with horror, when the jetliner was shot down over Eastern Ukraine. 

In the following days we heard a litany of possible solutions, coupled with obvious disinformation lies from Russia.  My favorite was when the Buk carrier was caught exiting Ukraine, someone photo-shopped in a sign indicating a city far away from the actual location of the carrier.

Then we saw the Russians attempt to demonstrate that there was a Ukrainian jet fighter in the region and that it had done the damage.  They did this by pulling out supposed radar images taken from air traffic control out of Rostov.

Finally, we heard the Russian attempts to discredit the FaceBook interviews and captured conversations confirming the 'kill' with exclamations of joy that another Ukrainian plane was dismembered in Eastern Ukraine.

As a result of all of these obvious lies, the US provides grainy satellite images which barely show any detail as a means to refute the Russian claims.  The images supposedly showed action in the region, and was intended to show reasonable doubt to the Russian narrative.  These same images were used to try to examine Russian troop and equipment movement into Eastern Ukraine, from Russia.  Quite honestly, they suck.

Arguably Ukraine and the conflagration of a shooting war in Eastern Europe is the greatest thread to European prosperity since the end of WWII.  It also threatens NATO countries, countries which the US is sworn to protect.   It staggers the imagination that the US, arguably the most technically capable country in the world when comparing military hardware, puts forth public arguments supported by pictures that look like they're from the 1950s.

I am refraining from any commentary on the state of the conflict in Eastern Ukraine.  But what I would like to focus on is the quality of documentation provided to the public to support State Department and NATO assertions.

Below is a picture provided by the State Department attempting to argue that Russian artillery is supporting separatist fighters in Eastern Ukraine.

In looking at the picture, the average reader is challenged to understand what is going.



Contrasting the above picture is the photos that were presented to bolster the US's position on the cuban missile crisis.



Now, I am the first to say that taking pictures of Ukraine is not the primary focus of the US's intelligence gathering as was the missile crisis.  But I also need to comment that the Cuban Missile Crisis was in 1962.  Technology has advanced a little since then.  Yet the pictures submitted above are the best available to demonstrate Russian participation in Ukraine?

The question has been advanced here before, but as we move into the summer months and probable additional fighting, at what point does the US really begin to show its cards.  Or, is this all there is?

[calmissile]

You can be certain that we have the capability to have real-time, and near real-time, high resolution images of the battlefield in Eastern Ukraine.  The issue is whether our leftist, liberal president will authorize the movement of our satellites and other resources to collect the data.  And conversely if we have, will he authorize the release of the data.  We have demonstrated this capability over and over the past 20 years.

It would provide a huge political gain for Ukraine and the EU to expose the truth about Russia's lies concerning providing military assistance to the conflict.  Photographic proof would be much more advantageous than the rhetoric spewed in allegations.  The answer to your question lies at the feet of President Obama.

I can not find myself voting for any Democrat for any public office in the foreseeable future. Rather than impeach the incompetent president, the Democrats are going to suffer the consequences of his actions for years to come.  Considering the antics of Hillary Clinton over the past many years, she is also contributing to the loss of faith in the Democratic party.  A party of corruption, lies, and deceit.  The Republicans don't have clean hands either, but we must address the issues as they happen and are exposed.

[alex330]

Unclassified technology.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-latest-generation-of-spy-satellite-will-revolutionize-how-we-watch-earth

The US military sent next generation satellites into orbit in 2013 I believe. They are obviously not releasing classified info. Once a conflict has started we have other technology that can be implemented. Dropping in on all cell phone calls in a neighborhood, tracking RFID devices from space, drone images, etc.

[jone]

I didn't intend for this thread to become a political thread, although I understand how it could do so.  Is it possible that a 'political' decision was made to not offend the Russians due to the negotiations ongoing in other parts of the world?

The bigger question is when does it come into the US's primary interest to display the imagery we (theoretically) have?  And are assets from our intelligence arsenal actually being used in Eastern Europe at this point in time? 

I have always thought that the regional success of foreign policy prevented larger conflagrations.  At what time do we begin to pull out our intelligence assets and display to the world what is really happening?  Are we sharing the real stuff with countries like Estonia and Poland, while publicly we show limited technology?

Are we supposed to wink at our State Department and acknowledge that they are still playing with the intelligence asset scrubs (the Junior Varsity) while Russia has played their star players from the jump ball?  (Basketball analogy)

I have talked to many people who were alive when Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941.  I remember speaking to one guy who said that the US looked upon Japan as a little island nation that was gonna get the 'sh&t' beat out of it for doing what they did.    But until the Japs stopped reinforcing Guadalcanal, the outcome was still favoring the Rising Sun. 

Now the world is engaged in a global political game that requires our varsity line up.  Even if only to support our European NATO partners, we need to get into the ball game.

[Boethius]

I read the US doesn't want Russia (and probably others) to know its technological capabilities, and that is why the images were not released.

[jone]

Boe,

I am certain that your assertion is certainly one of the concerns demonstrated by the lack of technology on display.  Others may be:

A.  There is secret interaction going on at a much higher level that the release of all available information would ruin any chances to achieve a more substantial goal than to prove Russia has its hand in the cookie jar

B.  That US assets were not looking at Eastern Ukraine, similar to the lack of assets in Indonesia/Australia when that plane went missing

C.  That the US is saving the technology for when it is REALLY needed to break through Russia's deception in one fell swoop.

D.  The US is secretly bolstering Putin because his downfall would mean the rise of someone much darker.

[calmissile]

Unclassified technology.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-latest-generation-of-spy-satellite-will-revolutionize-how-we-watch-earth

The US military sent next generation satellites into orbit in 2013 I believe. They are obviously not releasing classified info. Once a conflict has started we have other technology that can be implemented. Dropping in on all cell phone calls in a neighborhood, tracking RFID devices from space, drone images, etc.

True, 'private' companies are orbiting satellites with various high resolution imagery capability.  IIRC, they are under license or other obligations from the US Government.  I seem to remember a recent disclosure of an agreement or directive from the government the satellite data will not be released that discloses imagery of US classified sites such as Area 51.  If the government does in fact have control over what imagery these companies can release, then the administration could limit what is available to the public over conflicts such as East Ukraine.  There are repeated claims that the Russians are building massive forces on the Russian side of the border, however there is no imagery to prove the point.  Doesn't this seem a little strange to most folks.  To me, it implies that the claims are lies, or the imagery is deliberately being withheld.

The question that should be asked of the commercial satellite operators......"Is the imagery of Eastern Ukraine deliberately being withheld for some reason, or is simply that no one has purchased the data?"

Since we know the data and imagery is available, the bigger question is why the west has not published it and shown the world (with proof) that Putin lies nearly every time he opens his mouth?

[calmissile]

I read the US doesn't want Russia (and probably others) to know its technological capabilities, and that is why the images were not released.

I know for a fact that this has been true in the past.  However when the US government chooses to release the data it has sometimes reduced the resolution and released the images.  There is also the issue of once your adversaries know what the capabilities are, it doesn't make a lot of sense to defend what is already known.  This applies only to military satellites and there are still the questions I raised earlier about the capabilities of commercial satellites and who has control of what can be released/sold to the public.

I am neither a lawyer, nor do I have several pots of coffee to read through this document.  From just glancing at it, it appears that the US has control over the commercial satellite maker.  If any part in it is made in the USA, the export controls apply and that leads to all the other controls, etc.  Anyone with the skills and patience might provide us a summary of what this document says about controls over commercial satellites.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UZoGjpiTTZAC&pg=PA976&dq=release+of+classified+information+from+commercial+satellites.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uS89VZC6M8a-sAXGk4CgBQ&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=release%20of%20classified%20information%20from%20commercial%20satellites.&f=false

[fathertime]

   The answer to your question lies at the feet of President Obama.

I can not find myself voting for any Democrat for any public office in the foreseeable future. Rather than impeach the incompetent president, the Democrats are going to suffer the consequences of his actions for years to come.  Considering the antics of Hillary Clinton over the past many years, she is also contributing to the loss of faith in the Democratic party.  A party of corruption, lies, and deceit.  The Republicans don't have clean hands either, but we must address the issues as they happen and are exposed.

What?   This is not a Democrat/Republican issue.  YOU are not interested in Democrats to begin with so your vote was never in play.


 At the beginning of the Obozo term I leaned more Republican then Democrat on most issues.  Now I would say it is more even to slight lean Democrat, and I marginally support Obama on many issues.  I don't think it is correct to say people have lost faith in the Democratic party.  The general election is no shoe in for anyone, if anything the Democrats probably hold a slight edge.  Current odds-makers have the Democrats winning:
http://www.politicalbettingodds.com/2016-us-presidential-election-odds.html


Why not lay a few thousand on a Republican winner if you are so sure? 


Fathertime!

[BillyB]

Yet the pictures submitted above are the best available to demonstrate Russian participation in Ukraine?

Millions of photos have been taken, not all will be seen. I doubt the West, especially European countries would sacrifice their economies in an effort to punish Russia over a lie. Russian troops are in Ukraine. Not even Putin denies this. He just denies sending them there. Russian troops followed their hearts into Ukraine. Russian heavy armor also followed their hearts into Ukraine.


In other news of where's US technology, Russia gains American uranium assets courtesy of the Clintons. Slick Willy once got paid $500,000 to speak in Moscow.


http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-gained-us-uranium-assets/