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Author Topic: The Russian/Syrian connection thread  (Read 253530 times)

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Offline BillyB

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #575 on: November 25, 2015, 09:18:22 PM »
WikiLeaks Reveals Saudi Arabia, Turkey & Qatar Secret Anti-Syria Plot


The whistleblower website WikiLeaks says that leaked documents from Saudi ministries revealed that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey had a secret deal three years ago to topple the Syrian government.......

.......WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange told Rossiya-1 (Russia 1) TV channel on Sunday that the United States, France, and Britain had also been involved in the secret deal in 2012.



These are not new revelations. Assad has to go theme has been out in the open for years. When Russia and Iran go behind closed doors, they talk about how to get control of the Middle East too. When Russia and China talk behind closed doors, they talk about how to expand their borders and minimize interference by America.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #576 on: November 26, 2015, 01:16:09 AM »
Channel One, the "CNN" of Russia, is pounding the theme of Turkish aggression, complete with maps purporting to prove that the plane was not violating Turkish airspace.

Their maps, like the one presented earlier here, are pure bullshit and I am impressed at how fast the St Petersburg troll factory had those produced and unleashed their guys with the message so quickly. What the average nonthinking Ruskie citizen doesn't realize is that with today's modern technology and digital guidance systems, you can't just make up bullshit about whether a plane was, or was not, in restricted airspace. Either you were, or you were not. Simples.

If Russia truly believes that the plane was over Syria, then they should trot out the universally known and accepted electronic evidence and open an inquiry at the United Nations. Next, begin international legal proceedings at the Hague.

I'm guessing that they won't because the "evidence" they appear to have manufactured is probably as acceptable as the vomit from a Russian drunk on Saturday night. But, if they are right, then take the case to the world, not just the sheeple within your own borders.

In the meantime, keep applying those Preparation H pads and salve until the bleeding stops.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 01:20:07 AM by mendeleyev »
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Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #577 on: November 26, 2015, 07:02:36 AM »

If Russia truly believes that the plane was over Syria, then they should trot out the universally known and accepted electronic evidence and open an inquiry at the United Nations.... I'm guessing that they won't because the "evidence" they appear to have manufactured is probably as acceptable as the vomit......

You are correct, yet I have seen little evidence of the actual flight path. 

The American news agencies have shown a flight path map (source ?) indicating the Russian plane crossed the southernmost tip of Turkey's Hatay Province.  The tip is only about 2-3 miles wide, meaning the Russian plane violated Turkish airspace for only 17 seconds. 

That would not be enough time to go through the usual procedures of warning, dispatching planes to intercept, etc.   So I agree with Russia's statement that Erdogan took the initiative to plan this provocation and had the intercepting planes eagerly waiting in position to shoot down a Russian plane if the opportunity presented itself.   

Why?  We have already discussed the bordering Syrian area is:   1) inhabited by ethnically kindred Turkmen and 2) needed by Turkey as a buffer with the Kurds.  I learned more history  that is also at play.  Both Turkey and Syria claimed Hatay Province, and the French ceded it to Turkey in the 1930s.   Syria still disputes this, so the  politics is similar to Kashmir.  Russia knew the sensitive politics yet bombed close to the borders and had crossed the Hatay airspace multiple times. 

Therefore, one could say Russia started this, and Erdogan had the balls to  punch the big bully in the nose.  And he said if another Russian plane invades his airspace, he will do it again.  Would he do this without being part of NATO?  I doubt it.

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #578 on: November 26, 2015, 07:50:04 AM »
Brass,

.... Absolute disbelief that Turkey would be an aggressor against Russia.  ..... Absolute condemnation of the Turkish government by the Russian populace.

I would be surprised if Putin's rating at home took even a hiccup.  If you would listen to the reports from Syria, you would hear Russia playing the aggreived.  More fodder for the PR cannons helping the plot line that Russia is the victim. 

This is the way it is being played out at home.

Thanks for the insight, Jon.

This op-ed has also touched on the issue...

How Turkey confounded Putin’s favorite narratives

..."On Monday, two Turkish F-16s shot down a Russian plane which Turkey said had crossed into its airspace. Various interpretations could in theory be placed upon this event. Depending on one’s point of view, it could be described as an act of self-defense on the part of Turkey, a NATO member — or an act of aggression. But to Vladimir Putin, and to his claque in the Russian media, only one question matters: To which of his narratives should it belong? "...

..."But that doesn’t mean that the story has come to an end. What if there are further Russian losses, or another plane is shot down? What if the Syrian war begins to go badly, or becomes unpopular in Russia? Then the Kremlin will need an explanation for its failures and the narrative will have to change again. NATO might still prove an excellent villain. The only question is whether Russia’s response will then play itself out in virtual reality — or in real life. "...

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions

I noted several articles in the same vein this a.m. more or less catching up with the RWD discussion although I haven't read them fully yet.

You and Mendy are right of course the Russian propaganda machine has gone into overtime vilifying the Turks and making Russia look the victim.

I'm still of the opinion that this incident has damaged Putin internally though. As this article alludes to - Turkey daring to push back against the Russian military machine doesn't fit the 'Putin narrative'.

Brass
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Offline AkMike

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #579 on: November 26, 2015, 08:57:33 AM »
They should be reminded of KAL flight 007! Another 'trespasser' shot down years ago except it was a 747 full of civilians.

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #580 on: November 26, 2015, 09:53:21 AM »
Would be interesting to see a third front open up against Russia in the Caucasus....

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #581 on: November 26, 2015, 10:08:04 AM »
Would be interesting to see a third front open up against Russia in the Caucasus....

After Georgia, no one in their right mind would do such. 

Offline jone

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #582 on: November 26, 2015, 10:09:37 AM »
Channel One, the "CNN" of Russia, is pounding the theme of Turkish aggression, complete with maps purporting to prove that the plane was not violating Turkish airspace.

Their maps, like the one presented earlier here, are pure bullshit and I am impressed at how fast the St Petersburg troll factory had those produced and unleashed their guys with the message so quickly. What the average nonthinking Ruskie citizen doesn't realize is that with today's modern technology and digital guidance systems, you can't just make up bullshit about whether a plane was, or was not, in restricted airspace. Either you were, or you were not. Simples.

If Russia truly believes that the plane was over Syria, then they should trot out the universally known and accepted electronic evidence and open an inquiry at the United Nations. Next, begin international legal proceedings at the Hague.

I'm guessing that they won't because the "evidence" they appear to have manufactured is probably as acceptable as the vomit from a Russian drunk on Saturday night. But, if they are right, then take the case to the world, not just the sheeple within your own borders.

In the meantime, keep applying those Preparation H pads and salve until the bleeding stops.

How did you know I was in Moscow on Saturday night?  I hope those shoes you were wearing were not new.
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Offline alex330

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #583 on: November 26, 2015, 10:10:18 AM »
After Georgia, no one in their right mind would do such.

Nobody would fund terror groups in the Caucasus to stretch Russia thin? There has already been an attack on a Russian military base there if I recall correctly.

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #584 on: November 27, 2015, 08:47:41 AM »
Turkey warns Russia not to 'play with fire' over downed jet

..."Turkish President Erdogan has warned Russia's President Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet."...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34941093

Indeed. The criminals occupying the Kremlin know that Turkey holds the trump card if the Russian economic temper tantrum becomes too annoying.

The Bosphorus and Dardanelles are the final say in this matter.

The Russian propaganda machine is already telling the Turks why they can't close it, of course...

Why Turkey Will Not Close Bosphorus to Russian Naval Ships

..."According to the 1936 Montreux Convention, Turkey can close the Bosphorus Strait and the Dardanelles to naval ships of other countries only when it is at war."...

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20151127/1030850160/turkey-bosphorus-naval-ships.html#ixzz3shokQiIk

Russia Hopes Montreux Convention on Turkish Straits to Remain Inviolable

..."MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia relies on the inviolability of legal norms of freedom of navigation through the Black Sea straits, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Thursday."...

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151126/1030783246/russia-turkey-straits.html#ixzz3shssLwP9

I'm sure Turkey will give the "inviolability" of the Montreux Convention the same consideration that Russia accorded the "inviolability" of the Budapest Agreement and Turkish airspace. ;)

Brass



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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #585 on: November 27, 2015, 10:43:45 AM »
Nobody would fund terror groups in the Caucasus to stretch Russia thin? There has already been an attack on a Russian military base there if I recall correctly.

I misunderstood.  I thought you were suggesting Ajerbaijan or Armenia start hostilities with Russia.   There is thought that if Russia attacked ISIL, the Sunni Muslims in Russia and just across the border would organize terrorist attacks.

Offline Изумруд

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #586 on: November 27, 2015, 11:54:17 AM »
I'm still of the opinion that this incident has damaged Putin internally though. As this article alludes to - Turkey daring to push back against the Russian military machine doesn't fit the 'Putin narrative'.

BBC: "Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned Russia's President Vladimir Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet."  I have to hand it to the Turkish president, he's certainly talking the talk; however, he'd be wise to reign in the rhetoric whilst standing firm.  I'd have to agree with jone: it may have slightly damaged Putin's aura of invincibility but in the short term increased his popularity as the right man for the job in Russia.  Things may be better in Moscow and Peter, but people are really starting to suffer in other parts of Russia; unless you have plenty of money, you're feeling the recession and this certainly distracts people's attention away from domestic issues.

I spoke to a Turkish acquaintance yesterday, and she said Erdogan isn't very popular with Turks in the bigger cities. Investment in education is down, especially in the sciences, whilst Religious classes have increased; not a good sign.  She also told me that Erdogan was most popular with the poor and with people in villages; offering them food if they voted for him.  Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence but interesting nonetheless.  I don't believe in the short term, that Turkey will be able to replace all those Russian tourists.  Around 4m Russians visited Turkey last year and that's a lot of investment.  If the Russian tour operators pull out as has been rumoured, then lots of smaller Turkish businesses and hotels are going to go bust, especially in Antalya; that will not make Erdogan popular.

Erdogan has also been buying cheap oil form IS and in that Putin is right that they are sponsoring terrorism; although, as so often is the case in these scenarios, the black kettle is always hovering nearby.  If the Russian SU did enter Turkish airspace, then they should have just escorted it out.  On the other hand, part of me can't help but respect Erdogan for giving Putin a bloody nose, even if it is a very dangerous game he's playing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34941093
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:49:31 PM by Изумруд »

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The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #587 on: November 27, 2015, 12:20:24 PM »
Nobody would fund terror groups in the Caucasus to stretch Russia thin? There has already been an attack on a Russian military base there if I recall correctly.

No way would anyone want to do that, unless maybe some nutter in Sandland.

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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #588 on: November 27, 2015, 06:53:36 PM »
I spoke to a Turkish acquaintance yesterday, and she said Erdogan isn't very popular with Turks in the bigger cities. Investment in education is down, especially in the sciences, whilst Religious classes have increased; not a good sign.  She also told me that Erdogan was most popular with the poor and with people in villages; offering them food if they voted for him.  Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence but interesting nonetheless.  I don't believe in the short term, that Turkey will be able to replace all those Russian tourists.  Around 4m Russians visited Turkey last year and that's a lot of investment.  If the Russian tour operators pull out as has been rumoured, then lots of smaller Turkish businesses and hotels are going to go bust, especially in Antalya; that will not make Erdogan popular.

That is spot on. Erdogan has surrounded himself with Muslim Brotherhood staffers, and he supported the Muslim Brotherhood takeover of the Egyptian government. Turkey is supposed to be a secular state, but he has taken many steps to tear down the walls of separation between Mosque and State. His party, the "Justice and Development Party", is part of the Cemaat movement which is a Pan-Islamist ideology.

His style of government is very authoritarian, something that many modern Turks do not appreciate. Thus, many of his supporters are the poor and the very religious.

Quote
If the Russian SU did enter Turkish airspace, then they should have just escorted it out.  On the other hand, part of me can't help but respect Erdogan for giving Putin a bloody nose, even if it is a very dangerous game he's playing.

I take another view: Turkey, and other nations, have complained continually to Moscow about such incursions, over and over again. Moscow only shrugs and denies the obvious. On Erdogan's recent trip to Moscow he made a point to again bring up the subject with Putin.

This time, there was no scant 17 seconds, it was an incursion long enough to scramble jets, issue 10 warnings which were ignored by the two pilots, and then gain clearance from Turkish Prime Minister Davutoglu before firing. This was a test of resolve, and the Turks jammed a missile up Putin's backside to make their point. Hopefully, no escalation will result from Putin's certain case of fiery hemorrhoids.
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #589 on: November 27, 2015, 09:00:06 PM »
That is spot on. Erdogan ...

Aren't Erdogan and Putin both riding a wave of nationalism and high popularity?  It is difficult to reason with such people, much less  such people  reasoning with each other. 

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #590 on: November 27, 2015, 10:29:42 PM »
Putin is riding high, but Turkish voters in the larger cities have been in a mood to protest often lately, and Erdogan has censored the Internet and cracked down on protesters.

I do agree that both personalities will have a hard time with each other.


Russian joke: What will Putin eat for Thanksgiving dinner?  Turkey.
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #591 on: November 27, 2015, 11:06:54 PM »
Interesting article by Scott Lilly in the Huffington Post.

Quote
If you study a map of the border region in which the event occurred it seems fairly obvious that Russian military planners realized before they ordered the mission that a violation of Turkish airspace was required if the targets assigned were to be hit. There was virtually no approach that a jet aircraft could have taken to hit the rebel positions on Turkmen Mountain that did not involve a high probability of violating Turkey's airspace. The approach chosen by the pilots was clearly a deliberate violation....

Read the article here.
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #592 on: November 28, 2015, 11:09:47 AM »



Russian joke: What will Putin eat for Thanksgiving dinner?  Turkey.

Must have seen that coming... :)

Quote
Turkey's president warns Russia not to 'play with fire'....Relations between the former Cold War antagonists are at their lowest in recent memory after Turkey shot down a Russian fighter jet near the Syrian border on Tuesday. The pilot was machine-gunned dead by rebels on the ground in Syria as he parachuted down.
Russia has threatened economic retaliation - a response Erdogan has dismissed as emotional and indecorous.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/turkey-president-warns-russia-play-fire-151128035823435.html
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #593 on: November 28, 2015, 09:40:33 PM »
Turkmen rebels in Syria filmed shelling the Russian airbase. I initially dismissed the accuracy and damage from the old artillery but apparently the Russian130mm is considered one of the most accurate and deadly pieces of artillery designed. The Viet Cong supposedly used them very effectively against us in the war.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/syrian-rebels-filmed-hammering-russian-6914939

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #594 on: November 29, 2015, 09:49:56 AM »
BBC: "Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned Russia's President Vladimir Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet."  I have to hand it to the Turkish president, he's certainly talking the talk; however, he'd be wise to reign in the rhetoric whilst standing firm. I'd have to agree with jone: it may have slightly damaged Putin's aura of invincibility but in the short term increased his popularity as the right man for the job in Russia.  Things may be better in Moscow and Peter, but people are really starting to suffer in other parts of Russia; unless you have plenty of money, you're feeling the recession and this certainly distracts people's attention away from domestic issues.

I spoke to a Turkish acquaintance yesterday, and she said Erdogan isn't very popular with Turks in the bigger cities. Investment in education is down, especially in the sciences, whilst Religious classes have increased; not a good sign.  She also told me that Erdogan was most popular with the poor and with people in villages; offering them food if they voted for him.  Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence but interesting nonetheless.  I don't believe in the short term, that Turkey will be able to replace all those Russian tourists.  Around 4m Russians visited Turkey last year and that's a lot of investment.  If the Russian tour operators pull out as has been rumoured, then lots of smaller Turkish businesses and hotels are going to go bust, especially in Antalya; that will not make Erdogan popular.

Erdogan has also been buying cheap oil form IS and in that Putin is right that they are sponsoring terrorism; although, as so often is the case in these scenarios, the black kettle is always hovering nearby.  If the Russian SU did enter Turkish airspace, then they should have just escorted it out.  On the other hand, part of me can't help but respect Erdogan for giving Putin a bloody nose, even if it is a very dangerous game he's playing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34941093

Thanks for this, Изумруд.

Alright, that's three people who I consider to be knowledgeable on the subject telling me Putin probably won't suffer as a result of this incident. I'll defer to your opinion on this matter.

I've not seen/read Turkey (the country) is buying oil directly from IS (other than Russian propaganda). I'd suggest the oil that is being purchased on the black market is probably being moved more along the lines of what this article has stated...

Iraqi, Turkish businessmen ‘directly involved’ in funding $2B to ISIS by buying oil

..."Some Turkish and Iraqi businessmen have been involved in financing the Daesh terrorist group by buying oil from it in the black market, a senior Turkish politician says.

“There is information that 27 Turkish and Iraqi businessmen are directly involved in this trade. Iraq's central government has taken a number of measures” to prevent it, Russia's Sputnik news agency quoted Mehmet Ali Ediboğlu, the former deputy of the Turkish opposition Republican People's Party (CHP), as saying on Monday.

Ediboğlu added that the businessmen include people close to Iraq’s Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG).

Back in 2014, David Cohen, the then US Treasury under-secretary for terrorism and financial intelligence, said middlemen from Turkey and the KRG purchased oil from Daesh terrorists.

According to Ediboğlu, Daesh’s main source of income is the sale of oil extracted from the fields it has captured since last year. Reports say the Takfiris control nearly a dozen oil fields in northern Iraq as well as Syria’s Raqqa province.

The oil is transferred to the Mediterranean Sea from Turkey and then transported to the other parts of the world, the former Turkish lawmaker noted.

“There is evidence that the oil revenues amounted to USD 800 million [per year], later this amount increased to 1-2 billion dollars,” he said.

Ediboğlu also stressed that the Turkish government indirectly assists Daesh terrorists by selling weapons to Syria’s militant groups which Ankara deems 'reasonable'.

According to the politician, these groups are later forced by Daesh to sell their arms to the extremists."...

http://en.abna24.com/service/middle-east-west-asia/archive/2015/11/03/718331/story.html

Although critical of the Turkish government in general, Ediboğlu himself doesn't go so far as to accuse the Turkish government of directly purchasing oil from IS.

Erdogan has gone on record denying Turkey is buying oil from the terrorists...

Erdogan denies Turkey buying oil from ISIS

..."Turkish president denies Russian accusations as 'slander', as Moscow-Ankara row over downed Russian jet heats up."...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/203994#.Vlsrj5uFPMw

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #595 on: November 29, 2015, 11:34:56 AM »
In the Mendeleyev Journal...


Over the past two years the villains shown on Russian television have been, to quote news blogger and press photographer Ilya Varlamov, "Ukraine, the USA, France, Germany, then completely unknown terrorists from the IG, but now Turkey." He goes on to muse about how Turkish products have been on Russian shelves for years, but suddenly are to be considered unsanitary.

Turkey wedding.jpg height=477 height=359
(Turkish couple prepares for wedding. Photo: Ilya Varlamov)

Russian heath authorities have declared imports of food from Turkey to be unsafe. As usual for political political disagreements, Russian health inspectors claim to have discovered sanitary violations in food imports from Turkey.

The Moscow Times newspaper quoted former health official Gennady Onishchenko who claimed, “Every Turkish tomato you buy is your contribution to a rocket to shoot down our boys.”

The Kremlin controlled media has whipped up an angry frenzy among Russian citizens after Turkey's air force shot down a Russian warplane that had violated Turkish airspace last Tuesday. The Russian plane had ignored ten warnings and refused to leave Turkish airspace after Turkish military fighter jets intercepted the plane.

In addition to the de facto embargoes on a variety of Turkish food products, Russian president Putin cut off access to direct Russian tourist travel to Turkey. A majority of tourists who visit Turkey annually are from Russia.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #596 on: November 29, 2015, 11:56:43 AM »
Brass,

I am of the opinion that this will play into Putin's favour. Don't discount the fact that the Russian fighter crew may have been used as bait--10 warnings an no response. Why? Apparently they were not given authorization to respond.

If nothing happened, Putin's continued airspace violations would have gone unchecked. As an aside, it will be interesting to see if he pushes the envelope with other neighbors. However, Turkey responded, and now Putin is playing this as yet another sign that Russia is being surrounded by hostile forces, and the Russian citizen is so fortunate to have a strong leader at the helm!


The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline alex330

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #597 on: November 29, 2015, 12:03:14 PM »
The Kremlin controlled media has whipped up an angry frenzy among Russian citizens after Turkey's air force shot down a Russian warplane that had violated Turkish airspace last Tuesday. The Russian plane had ignored ten warnings and refused to leave Turkish airspace after Turkish military fighter jets intercepted the plane.

There was a study done by a couple Belgian physicists that shows both sides are lying about the incident. Then ten warnings and flight time in Turkeys airspace is impossible as is the Russian version of events.

Interesting read on the calculations below -

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/belgian-physicists-calculate-that-everyone-is-lying-about-the-downed-russian-jet

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #598 on: November 29, 2015, 12:42:37 PM »
Al Jazeera reported Russians hit a civilian market  near where the Russian plane was shot down.  The strike killed over 40 in the market. 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/20-killed-russian-air-strike-syrian-market-151129082103978.html


Collateral damage, or Is it conceivable Russia would exact revenge by targeting a market?

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #599 on: November 29, 2015, 12:44:15 PM »
Interesting article by Scott Lilly in the Huffington Post.

Read the article here.

Believe it.  Distances are not great in this area. 

 

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