The Russia We'd Like To See

[lordtiberius]

For most Russians, Crimea is historically important and "theirs".  A lot of Russian blood was spilled in that region.


As for religion, a significant number of the wars on Ukrainian soil had a religious basis, Orthodoxy vs Catholicism.

There is a Catholic element in the Euromaidan movement

[AC]

For most Russians, Crimea is historically important and "theirs".  A lot of Russian blood was spilled in that region.

As was Tatar and Greek blood.  In 1954 Kreshchev gave Crimea to Ukraine. 

Are Russians honorable in their decisions or do they pick and choose based on nationalism?

[Photo Guy]

Both Hitler and Napolepon tried to  defeat Russia- didn't work.
Height doesn't count.

The West is NOT trying to defeat Russia. That is propaganda. The West is trying to stop Russia from crushing Ukraine. The West believes sovereign nations should be allowed to choose their trading partners and system of government.

[Doll]

The West is NOT trying to defeat Russia. That is propaganda. The West is trying to stop Russia from crushing Ukraine. The West believes sovereign nations should be allowed to choose their trading partners and system of government.

BS

[Photo Guy]

Continuing with criticism of Putin's recent speech from December 4th.
the speech:
http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/23341

'...Every nation has an inalienable sovereign right to determine its own development path, choose allies and political regimes, create an economy and ensure its security. Russia has always respected these rights and always will. This fully applies to Ukraine and the Ukrainian people...'

Again- this is a joke, very far from the truth. Ukraine's eastern border with Russia is under the control of Russia, which allows movement of personnel and equipment into Ukraine and also dead cargo back to Russia.

About the coup in Kiev:
'...How did it all begin? I will have to remind you what happened back then. It is hard to believe that it all started with a technical decision by President Yanukovych to postpone the signing of the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the European Union. Make no mistake, he did not refuse to sign the document, but only postponed it in order to make some adjustments...'

To call it a 'technical' decision is silly. This was a huge promise that Yanu made to the people of Ukraine. And soon after he flew to Moscow and signed a trade agreement there, which was a slap in the face of those wanting an agreement with the EU. And how did Yanu react to the massive protest at Maidan? He reacted by calling it 'illegal'. That was certainly a Putinesque maneuver.

Putin also said:
'...It is true that we condemned the government coup and the forceful takeover of power in Kiev in February of this year. The developments we are currently witnessing in Ukraine and the tragedy unfolding in the country’s southeast prove that we were right to take such a stand...'

Most Ukrainians see Yanu as a Putin's Puppet, a Putin Junior. So, of course, Putin condemns the coup. Why does Putin ignore how Yanu treated protestors and how Yanu trashed the Ukrainian Constitution? Putin would've sent tanks to the Maidan. That's the kind of leader he is- a dictator. The conflict at Maidan and in Ukraine today is about a Russian dictator fighting against a European style of democracy. Two opposing ideologies... There has never been a war between two democracies.
   He speaks of the unfolding tragedy in Ukraine's southeast, but where is his description of it?? He says he respects Ukraine's elections, and yet he does not respect Ukrainian's desire for a UNITED Ukraine. Putin respects Russians, but he does NOT respect ethnic Russians who want a united Ukraine, and he does NOT respect the Tartars, ethnic Ukrainians or western Europeans.

The tragedy in Odessa:
'...Against this background, there was no way we could support this armed coup, the violence and the killings. Just take the bloody events in Odessa, where people were burned alive. How can the subsequent attempts to suppress people in Ukraine’s southeast, who oppose this mayhem, be supported? I reiterate that there was no way we could endorse these developments. What’s more, they were followed by hypocritical statements on the protection of international law and human rights. This is just cynical. I strongly believe that the time will come when the Ukrainian people will deliver a just assessment of these developments...

Yes there was a tragedy there and it should be investigated. But, why hasn't Putin spoken of tragedies against those protesters who are for a united Ukraine?? 100 were murdered in Kiev during Maidan. In Kharkov, protesters for a united Ukraine were beaten. Was that okay with Putin? The biggest tragedy is that Putin has characterized all Ukrainian nationalists as 'fascists'. Don't Russians have friends and relatives in Ukraine? Are they all fascists!? Ridiculous.

Putin:
'...How did the dialogue on this issue begin between Russia and its American and European partners? I mentioned our American friends for a reason, since they are always influencing Russia’s relations with its neighbours, either openly or behind the scenes. Sometimes it is even unclear whom to talk to: to the governments of certain countries or directly with their American patrons and sponsors...'

Here, Putin sounds like a paranoid KGB agent. How is America influencing? Through conversations? Is America making threats against nations, like Russia? Is America threatening to stop the flow of gas? Is America threatening 'consequences' for countries wanting to trade with particular nations? Putin is imagining that America is similar to Russia. He's promoting more propaganda: countries in Europe CANNOT think for themselves, and that includes Ukraine.

'...All the arguments that Russia and Ukraine are members of the CIS free-trade zone, that we have deep-rooted cooperation in industry and agriculture, and basically share the same infrastructure – no one wanted to hear these arguments, let alone take them into account...'

The is a horrible joke. Those 'arguments'??? The West is okay with the CIS trade group. The West is not okay with Russia telling a nation that they cannot be part of an EU trade group. That is Russia being a 'bully'. Is there a Russian word for 'bully'?? I guess not. Yanu, the dictator, flew to Brussels and said nyet, and then flew to Moscow and said yes. Putin liked that and then Yanu was ousted. That looks clear to me. So Putin is now holding a grudge, like an immature 14 year old.

'...So what’s came out of it all? The agreement between Ukraine and the European Union has been signed and ratified, but the implementation of the provisions regarding trade and economy has been postponed until the end of next year. Doesn’t this mean that we were the ones who were actually right?..'

I think the postponement is a mistake. I think the EU was afraid of threats from Russia. Putin seems to think that Ukraine should not choose free trade with the EU. So Putin thinks Ukraine should not choose a course that would not be in Russia's interests.

'...There is also a question of why all this was done in Ukraine? What was the purpose of the government coup? Why shoot and keep shooting and killing people? In fact, the economy, finance and the social sector were destroyed and the country ruined...'

This is complete BS. Propaganda. 'shoot and keep on shooting'?? What the heck is he talking about? What about the separatists who chose to take over buildings and police stations in eastern Ukraine? And the Russian military who went into Ukrainian bases? What does Putin think of Ukrainian businesses in Crimea?? Does he think or speak about that? He says the coup ruined everything, but he has told us that he RESPECTS the elections in Ukraine, the elections that have been in effect long after the coup. So is he insane? ...Nonsense. Do the Russian citizens know that there has been mortar fire from Russian positions into Ukraine, to destroy border stations?? Is that a secret or do the Russian people know that? I hope there is more communication between Russians and their Ukrainian cousins.   ...more analysis to come.

[Photo Guy]

Doll, why do you consider that BS? Give us specific examples...
Also, do most Russians see Ukraine as their possession?

[Photo Guy]

Here in the USA, most people do not think about Russia. People are not sitting around, having lunch and talking about victory or defeat with Russia. We do not even know what a victory or defeat would look like. We are happy without Russia in our thoughts. We go to work, we enjoy our friends here, and free time, etc. We do not see Russians as our enemy at all. We do not understand why Putin wants to control Ukraine. We are not like Russia. We do not want to control Ukraine or Russia. We want peace and benevolence. And we are tired of playing the role of 'world police'. 

[AkMike]

Having the west and the USA as focal points as enemies of Russia gives them a 'reason to live a substandard existence and feel good about it.

[Brasscasing]

Both Hitler and Napolepon tried to  defeat Russia- didn't work.
Height doesn't count.

Oh dear...This is neither the 19th or 20th century, Doll.

It doesn't take an army 3 months to march their way to Moscow or is it necessary to fight harsh Russian winters while standing in the snow with blankets eating horse meat anymore.

Further, not to take anything away from the red army soldiers or soviet population who sacrificed much to defeat Hitler's armies, but the USSR did not go it alone and there is ample evidence (from the old soviet archives themselves) that without the assistance of the British and American lend lease programs of '41/42 that Moscow and possibly the USSR itself would have fallen.

The Lend/Lease pact included tanks, aircraft and maybe more importantly rations, personal equipment/clothing, medical supplies, locomotives, rail cars, logistic vehicles and numerous other articles required to maintain an army in the field. All petitioned for and received by the Kremlin even while the same supplies were sorely needed by the lending countries.

I've mentioned it to you before that you put too much faith in Soviet style halve baked myths and re-written history regarding Russian invincibility - It is a fallacy. The Russian military is learning this even now with their efforts in Ukraine.

If the Russian population is placing their faith and hope that NATO won't engage to thwart Russian aggression on the basis of a two hundred year old tactical error and a 75 year old war they did not win on their own they're sadly mistaken.

Brass

[lordtiberius]

BS

If we tried to destroy you, wouldn't it be already accomplished?

 

Who can reason with such people? 

[jone]

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-frank-kamenetsky-open-letter/26805995.html

This link, from Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, encapsulates the growing chasm between the world outside of Russia and the ultra nationalism in Russia.  As the interview reveals, the power centered around Putin dooms Russia to one of two unfavorable outcomes - at least in the opinion of the interviewee.

Here is the key paragraph:

"During my stay here, an overwhelming feeling of nausea gradually came over me and grew stronger all the time," he wrote in his letter, which has been widely circulated since it was posted online earlier this month. "There has not been such centralization, such concentration of power in this vast country in the hands of one person since Stalin's time."



Maksim Frank-Kamenetsky, a Soviet-born biophysicist who lives in Boston, was struck by the rampant anti-Americanism among Russians.

[jone]

I have to wonder, with the growing anti-American feelings, if we're not going to see random attacks on visitors from America to Russia in the near term future.  I talked to some friends of mine in Russia today and they say that the hatred of the United States government is palpable.

[JayH]

I have to wonder, with the growing anti-American feelings, if we're not going to see random attacks on visitors from America to Russia in the near term future.  I talked to some friends of mine in Russia today and they say that the hatred of the United States government is palpable.

Not the random attack that is the concern--it is the planned attack that is really dangerous. The moron thugs are not that clever and not see anything but citizenship.

[fathertime]

Not the random attack that is the concern--it is the planned attack that is really dangerous. The moron thugs are not that clever and not see anything but citizenship.

So now you are telling us US citizens that we shouldn't worry about the Russian anger and possible random attacks as well?  Easy for you to do in the recliner chair in Australia.  He brought up a legit concern, and it isn't your place to say much, as you don't live here... 


How about we US citizens start telling you Aussies what to do, and what to be concerned about? 


Fathertime!

[sleepycat]

So now you are telling us US citizens that we shouldn't worry about the Russian anger and possible random attacks as well? 

Very simple solution to your concern...
Save your tourist dollars and don't visit that cesspool of a country known as 'Rossiya'.
One more empty hotel room aren't going to make much difference to their already imploded economy.

[Anotherkiwi]

Not the random attack that is the concern--it is the planned attack that is really dangerous. The moron thugs are not that clever and not see anything but citizenship.

So now you are telling us US citizens that we shouldn't worry about the Russian anger and possible random attacks as well?  Easy for you to do in the recliner chair in Australia.  He brought up a legit concern, and it isn't your place to say much, as you don't live here...

I sometimes nearly always despair about you, fathertime, I really do.    "Random" attacks are precisely that - random.  They can happen anywhere, anytime, to anybody, and hopefully don't result in anything worse than some bruises and a missing wallet.  Many visitors to Russia over the years have suffered these - as have visitors to every country on earth, including yours.

A planned attack would be a heck of a lot more dangerous, because it means that the "perp" is specifically targeting you for being American (or Australian, or whatever), with consequences that may range anywhere from a torn shirt to death.  That is when you DO need to worry.

But, of course, YOU don't need to worry, fathertime - you'll never visit Russia anyway, because you'll sit back, happy to be with your Colombian wife, and keep making stupid statements about an area and a conflict you know very little about.  It's like all the assertions about how the Ukrainian Presidential crisis and the events of Maidan were all instigated by the USA, NSA, CIA and every other alphabetical agency you can dream of.  What you (and others on this forum) conveniently ignore is that there are several members who were there, and saw first-hand what went on, including how Berkut troops tried to murder peacefully protesting babushkas (amongst others) by mowing them down with heavy vehicles sent in to clear barricades.

How about we US citizens start telling you Aussies what to do, and what to be concerned about? 


Fathertime!

That's such old news - you already do (as you do to us).

[lordtiberius]

Be careful about mentioning others' wives.  Some of these Novorossiya types can dish it out, but can't take it.

I have to wonder, with the growing anti-American feelings, if we're not going to see random attacks on visitors from America to Russia in the near term future.  I talked to some friends of mine in Russia today and they say that the hatred of the United States government is palpable.

Are you all out of love?

[jone]

There is a great difference between people people that you have broken bread with, that have invited you into their homes and shared hopes and aspirations with, and those that may attack as part of a political agenda.   I have a great love for the Russian people for the kindness they have shown me through many years.  But I am pragmatic enough to understand how ultra-nationalism can be used to hide a host of crimes. 

I am concerned that the furthering of that ultra nationalism political agenda may constitute itself in the attacks on foreigners, specifically, Americans.  Do a timeline in your minds and you may come to the same concerns I do.  I reach back all the way to the elimination of the NGOs in Russia, to the present day attacks and detentions of those that would speak against the State.  I see the fervor, sometimes even on this forum. 

The worm turned on the Soviet Union when Gorbachev opened up Soviet Society and Russia saw that it was a generation behind in technology and its people were not offered the same standard of living as Western Society.  Now, with the increased standard of living in hand, Russia now seeks to re-create the political dominance of neighboring countries using every means at its disposal. 

I believe that justification for any acts, internal or external are now on the table in the strategy rooms in the Kremlin.

[Boethius]

The worm turned on the Soviet Union when Gorbachev opened up Soviet Society and Russia saw that it was a generation behind in technology and its people were not offered the same standard of living as Western Society.

I disagree with this.  I lived in the USSR during part of so called "glasnost'".  There was no opening of Soviet society, and people did not see the difference in technology.  Ordinary Soviets already knew what type of society they lived in.  The purpose of so called "perestroika" and "glasnost'" was not for the ordinary Soviet.  It was for the elites.

[jone]

Bo -

I probably misstated the comment.  When, in your opinion, did the blinders come off the eyes of the common Soviet citizen?

[Boethius]

In the late part of the Brezhnev years.

[lordtiberius]

Viva l difference Ukraine and Russia. 

[jone]

I spent a couple of days reading a book that impressed me as the underpinnings of the current military crisis:

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9008.html

This book, by Mary Elise Sarotte, outlines the true geopolitical struggle from a historical analysis.  In it, among other things, is an assessment of why the Soviet Union allowed Germany to reunite.  It also takes a look at NATO expansion.  One of the interesting thing is that in the book, Sarotte asserts that there was NEVER a promise made to the Soviet Union or to the successor, Russia, that NATO would not expand.  That, according to her, was revisionist history, made up by Russia as a means to promote ultra-nationalism.

[lordtiberius]

Tsarism and communism maintained Russian polity through force.  Can Russia exist without authoritarianism?

[cc3]

NO