Poll: Among US citizens has increased the number of supporters of Ukraine weapon

[fathertime]

Last year you supported more autonomy for east Ukraine. What the east wanted last year is no different than what they're asking for this year. They'll be able to live the way they/Putin wants and still be able to vote in Ukrainian elections. Russia will get the best out their autonomy while Ukraine gets the worst.

Autonomy is one thing, but not paying taxes into the central govt. and demanding hand outs is another.  The specific arrangements would have to either be fairly reasonable, or they could consider letting the region go entirely if that is in their best interests, which it appears it might wind up being.   Who pays the Ukrainian pensioners is a legit question though.  In my opinion, they should continue to receive money from Ukraine until their deaths as they can be considered Ukrainian citizens living abroad.  Since Botheius won't answer that question maybe you will..what do you think?


Fathertime!     

[fathertime]

Well, there is his wish, you got your Russians and the track of forgotten land.


How can Putler justify going after Mariupol and Odessa after this unless declaring (an open) war on Ukraine?

I'm sure I will be harangued for saying this, but I think Odessa is a bridge too far for Russia.  It would take much more than they are going to be willing to give for them to take Odessa and hold it. The repercussions would make it unpalatable.   Obama has put enough consequences out on the table already to dissuade, and the promise of more coming will halt the march prior to Odessa...in addition to a likelihood of great loss of lives.   IMO   


Fathertime!   

[BillyB]

What if Ukraine cede these two "Republics" all the way for them to be totally detached from Ukraine, where is the gun to the head?

The gun to the head came before the agreement to grant autonomy. Minsk 1 didn't provide autonomy so Putin fired the guns and made gains for more land. Minsk 2 gives Putin what he wants without war so now he's taking a break.

How can Putler justify going after Mariupol and Odessa after this unless declaring (an open) war on Ukraine?

He can't justify going after more of Ukraine IMO but he will go after more and make excuses that he has no control over the rebels in the new regions under conflict. It story worked so far in two regions so no reason to stop.

Who pays the Ukrainian pensioners is a legit question though.  In my opinion, they should continue to receive money from Ukraine until their deaths as they can be considered Ukrainian citizens living abroad.  Since Botheius won't answer that question maybe you will..what do you think?
   

A lot of people are innocent, worked most of their life, and have paid their dues to the Ukrainian government. No matter where they live in the world, they should get their pension checks from Ukraine. I also feel if those regions become autonomous, those regional governments should compensate Ukraine for infrastructure they inherited since it's paid for by the tax dollars of all Ukrainians. They also should be paying their own bills and rebuild the cities they destroyed on their own dime. Unfortunately they and Russia think Ukraine needs to pay for it.

[mendeleyev]

Neville, yes, that is exactly what Putin is demanding.

It leaves Kyiv financially responsible for all the damage, and the ongoing funding, while Russia has de facto control of those regions. Then, there is the issue of those separatists having a full vote in Kyiv elections.

Putin has indicated time and again that he has no desire to annex the East, yet he wants a say in how their autonomy is structured.

Of course he wants Mariupol and Odessa. That is a no-brainer. It is about shrinking Ukraine down to a much smaller size, then having complete control (militarily and energy resources) over Ukraine's share of the Black Sea. That is a frequent topic in Moscow--an indicator that the propaganda machine is preparing the citizenry for such an outcome.

[mendeleyev]

No, if the separatists want their independence, that includes pensions. Should we ask the Russians to pay pensions to the Alaskan Eskimos?!


Speaking of pensions, Russia announced recently that they will pay WWII stipends to veterans who fought during the war but are now citizens of Estonia and Latvia. Curious timing, especially in light that the government is still decades behind in promises of free housing to Russian veterans.

[fathertime]

No, if the separatists want their independence, that includes pensions. Should we ask the Russians to pay pensions to the Alaskan Eskimos?!

A lot of those old people probably got swept up in this and are innocent victims.  If you do not support paying the people their pensions, then would you change your mind if they moved back into unoccupied parts of Ukraine?  Or do you think they should be permanently barred from pensions? 


My feeling is they should be paid regardless, if/when this crisis is solved I would support a joint effort by nations of wealth to help Ukraine pay a portion of these pensions if that is what it took....much rather do that, then pay for weaponry.[size=78%]  [/size]


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Kyiv is paying their pensions now.  They just won't pay them in the war zone. 
 
 

[lordtiberius]

Kyiv is paying their pensions now.  They just won't pay them in the war zone.

To get their social payments they have to leave the occupied areas that Russia has de facto control over.  But Ukraine is a very poor country with lots of financial problems.  Fighting corruption is still a big problem.  If for some reason, these people can't get "their" money, they should understand or better yet, why can't they ask Uncle Vova?

[SANDRO43]

Speaking of pensions, Russia announced recently that they will pay WWII stipends to veterans who fought during the war but are now citizens of Estonia and Latvia.

Since most WWII veterans are probably deceased by now - 70 years after the war ended, its youngest recruits would be at least 88 - that should not stress his budget unduly .

[mendeleyev]

Sandro:

Since most WWII veterans are probably deceased by now - 70 years after the war ended, its youngest recruits would be at least 88 - that should not stress his budget unduly

Exactly, but he isn't making those payments out of some sacred duty. I'll wager that he's making them for the PR value of the younger Russian-speakers in those countries. It is part of the Kremlin's "Russian World" theory whereby Moscow "protects" Russian speakers anywhere on the globe.

[AC]

No, if the separatists want their independence, that includes pensions. Should we ask the Russians to pay pensions to the Alaskan Eskimos?!

Yes!