The Mike and Olga Conroy Story

[Admin]

Over in another topic, GQ recalled a sad story in the annals of AM/RW relations by bringing up the story of Mike and Olga Conroy (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11274.msg220341#msg220341).

As their story is one of the more sensational failures - along the lines of Anastasia King, Alla Barney and Nina Reiser (though these latter 3 were all homicides, so even more serious) , it prompted me to do a little digging to refresh my recollection of the events. The Conroy story, and the legal consequences, have been important to those who promote IMBRA.

Much of the material that used to be posted on the internet has disappeared over time - after all, it was more than 5 years ago. In my offline files, and using some resources such as The WayBack Machine, I was able to piece together quite a bit of the story.

The thumbnail sketch is as follows:

* Olga Mishenko was 17 years old at the time she first began communicating with Mike (Myke) Conroy.
* Mike Conroy was 55 years old - a 37/38 year age difference.
* Mike brought Olga to the US in 1999/2000 on a K-1 visa after she turned 18.
* Olga had a child with Mike in 2002.
* On August 28, 2004, Mr. Conroy raped and sodomized Olga at knife-point, bound her 97-pound naked body, locked her in a closet, and then fled with their two-year old son.
* Before meeting Olga, Conroy had been sentenced a 20-year prison term in Texas for “Assault to Murder with Malice Aforethought” in 1973. After he was released from prison, he was convicted in Oklahoma in 1986 for: (1) “Lewd Molestation” and (2) “Lewd or Indecent Proposals/Acts to a Child.”
* On October 20, 2006, a jury sitting in Logan County, Oklahoma convicted 61-year-old Michael R. Conroy of:
· First Degree Rape;
· Kidnapping;
· Domestic Abuse (Assault and Battery);
· Forcible Sodomy; and
· Assault and Battery with a Dangerous Weapon.
* Conroy is serving a life sentence in the Oklahoma prison system (ref -- http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=157509&offender_book_id=57112&imageindex=1)
* Someone, presumably Mike, posted an odd profile for Olga at a site called "randombabes" prior to her arrival in the US, and advertising an interest in modeling or acting. The profile shows her as being 5'0" tall and she was less than 100 pounds - a very small young woman. The profile spoke of her prolific talent in writing, and that she began writing for newspapers at 14 years old.
* Following her ordeal, Olga sought support via the internet, and at one time was collecting donations solicited through an internet site. She also visited at least one forum and posted some of her story there. Her story, as she wrote it, follows in the next post by Maxx.



A number of things struck me as I read her account. I will comment on those in later posts. For now - this is the story as I have pieced it together. I think there are some useful learning points contained in their story, and that is my motivation for posting it.

Others are welcome to contribute their own recollections of events - preferably with some evidence.

I am interested in what our experienced members 'see' in this story that might be helpful to our members.

Comments?

- Dan

[Maxx2]

After her problem with Myke a board called "Joe's board" who knew them did a story on her and sent a link of a PO box where people could send her some money. I sent her some money and she sent me a nice thank you card along with photo of her and her son (not the one below).

Anyway below is her story in her own words.   






"It could take me days to try to explain how the hell I got involved with Mike. It's especially hard to do when people like Helen and Zmejka already doubting heavily everything I might say. What's really weird is that girls (Russian girls) seem to be most skeptical. That's mean!

Believe it or not, SOME teenage girls can actually be naive and easy to manipulate. And that saying would never exist if it was untrue (Любовь зла, полюбишь и козла - Love is tough, you may fall in love with a goat/ jerk) There are sure to be plenty examples in any country, with "inside marriages" - when there is no money involved, and no benefit of location. That's why I'd hope that those of you, who are parents, are very sensitive to their girl's lives.

In my case, there were several factors that had to come together to make it possible. My teen years were, indeed very unhappy - to the point when I still consider I was happier in this marriage then before it. Anyway, I never smoke or took drugs - I avoided mistakes that I could foresee being wrong. Yet, it's a wonder I survived those years because I really tried not to. Now, you can label me insane at this point, I don't care. There is a lot that can go wrong for a person while growing up, and, with no emotional support I can see why people can go insane, or turn to drugs, or even become criminals.

My parents have not divorced, like many; they were actually fairly stable couple, also doing relatively well financially. Yet, I could not have been more isolated from them emotionally. We were worlds apart, I felt alien - to my parents, siblings, schoolmates...
I could never talk to them; reveal my troubles, my fears, and my pain. I had a hurricane sweeping through my soul, breaking everything apart, yet I had to contain it in me and manage to look normal. I don't know why and how it happened but I came to conclusion that I was nothing but a bother to my parents. They never hugged me, kissed me or praised me in any way. I had no idea who I was and was looking at others to let me know, am I a mistake of nature or what, am I smart or dumb, am I pretty or not. I could not just decide on my own, that I'm a person worth living; that wouldn't be "modest" - so I thought. Only others could be objective and give me honest answer. I waited and waited - but there were no indications of good "grade".
So, given the fact, that at school I'm pretty isolated, too - my classmates were all one to two years older then me, making me a kid in their eyes; I wasn't getting any positive feedback either. My grades started falling, too - going from straight "A"s most of my life to B and even C sometimes. I don't see why they wouldn't; I had no energy to live, no desire, no dare... let along study.

10 years ago, I looked exactly the same - I stopped growing at 14. But, see, I had no idea that I'm "young, beautiful and sexy", desirable and worthy. Without that, without any self-esteem, any self-worth - anybody can steer you in just about any direction.

Mike just happened to be in the right place in right time. At that point, I graduated high school at 16, moved out of the house at 17 - didn't want to be a burden to the parents, thought, they might like me more then... So, I tried to make sense of a world and my place in it, myself. I had a strong will power and wanted to change myself, I was mature enough to know that theoretically, my parents do love me; theoretically, I'm not any uglier or dumber then an average person, that I'm just as worthy of love and life.
Again, I only knew it theoretically, I NEVER FELT it. Nobody told me that. I was facing my fears, living along, I learned to talk to people despite being painfully shy, in fact, I was pursuing journalism - very "people" job; and had to constantly pretend I'm not afraid, I'm same as others, and push myself at every level, all while being terrified & frozen with fear inside. Unless you ever experienced it yourself, you will never know what it is like.
Whenever I'd accomplished something, it empowered me to do more.
Still, writing always was and always will be an easier form for me to communicate. And I had pen pals all over Russia at the time, people of all ages and social classes. I wanted to expand my experience and talk to people abroad, from whatever country - and that could help learn a foreign language, too. For a long time, I couldn't find any penal club or any ways to get in touch with new pen pals. I searched old newspapers in libraries - in Soviet Union it was common for students to write letters to other students in Germany, England, Cuba, etc. That old system was no longer working and there was nothing to replace it yet.
At some point, I found an ad for pen pal club, paid an outrageous fee for membership (still in high school, making my own money by taking people's portraits) - and it turned out to be a scam. A couple of years later, there were marriage agencies beginning to appear. Honestly, I was way too young for marriage; I was no going to - until I'm 25 or so. I was not looking for a husband. But I filled out the form, it was free anyway - nothing to loose; but mentioned in "my goals" paragraph that I just looking for friendship and correspondence. As usually, things always work, when you don't expect them to.

My photo and info ended up on the web, at different agency (perhaps, sold), where Mike and others had seen it. I got some letters, was corresponding for a year or more, it helped me to work on myself, not sink in teen insecurities. But, since it was a marriage agency, guys writing to it had different ideas and plans. Sometimes they'd ask to come visit me or for me to visit... that wasn't something I could do, or would be willing to do. Besides, it is more like actual dating, and I was scared as hell to meet anybody for that reason.
Mike was the only one who didn't ask - he just informed me he's coming. By that time, we corresponded for about a year, had a good time, and discussed everything we could think of in our long letters back and forth. Oh, and did I mention he was a writer? And I was planning on going to college for journalism, writing articles in local newspapers, stories & poems for myself? We had a lot in common, or so it seemed.

Nevertheless, I never thought about marrying him, for many reasons - not ready to marry is one, him being so different and so far away, big age difference is another. Not that I minded the age thing - I actually felt easier and safer around older, adults 25-35. I had no idea how to talk to teenagers. Yet, 50-54 was REALLY over the top to even consider any relations, especially of romantic matter. Back then, I didn't analyze all those reasons - but simply didn't even consider us marrying each other one day.
(he was VERY persuasive - he didn't give up, until I got the idea, got attached to him, fall in love with him, considered marrying him ... leading me all the way to the actual wedding. It was the only way it could've worked, and he found exactly the way). I couldn't fight authority and leadership. There is a great Russian saying - наглость города берёт/Arrogance is what brings the victory. It is very true.


Anyway, he announced he is coming; he wants to see Russia, and so on. I was too polite and didn't have the guts to say "don't come see ME, though!", because we were good friends and I didn't want to be rude. I just figured, I will have to be "brave" and act like a normal social person and, perhaps, show him a few things around town, and that be the end of it.
Well, first of all, he showed up way before he told me - of course, I know now, he was on a bride-shopping tour and had seen several other girls before me. I wasn't even home - he came to my apartment address, where even my parents didn't live anymore. Neighbors told him where to find parents; my mom then told him where to find me - another town. That was quite a task.
He had a few days, I was going to be his guide around town - by the way, I didn't speak any English back then, the best I could do is translate our letters with dictionary. (German was my language of choice at high school) He was very sweet, very kind and funny, he wasn't talking about marriage and that kind of stuff, we just spent time together and had fun. And NO, we didn't have sex.
I liked him; he was such a sweetheart, very charming and very safe like a big teddy bear. My Mom met him, she liked him a lot, too - still, none of us were thinking about marriage thing. Don't forget he has great conning talents, which enabled him to impress people and gained trust throughout his whole life, between the convictions (he was even able to convince Oklahoma military association, that he was in Marines for 33 years, while in fact he only served 4 years!)

After he left, we started talking on the phone, I took English classes. In a few months, before I realized it, I was living phone call to phone call. He was so patient, caring, and attentive - he became my life line, helping me get over permanent depression, gain a positive look at life, self-respect and joy overall. And NO, he didn't send me money - unless you count that $5 for mailing expenses.

By the time he brought up the idea of getting a visa, "so you can come visit me, too" - no word about marriage yet, I was very attached to him and in fact, it felt a lot like being in love, except I would not admit it to him or even myself. But all I talked about was Mike, I hugged my pillow as it was him, I felt so much better with him being in my life. He called me Baby; that's what I wanted to be, a baby all over again, with only love and no worries.

Then, as I get a visa, I learn it's a FIANCE visa, surprised but not confronting him.. Then I come, the subject of wedding (THIS time, not even in a distant future) arises and gets more and more serious. My doubts and uncertainties didn't seem to make sense, when I got the guts to express any, which soon I wasn't able to - again, with dumbest idea in the world of not being rude. (Parents, ple-ease, teach your daughters to say no!) Before long, I didn't even know myself, why not to get married - I'm happy, I'm in love, he is such a sweetheart, loving and supportive - just what I always needed.

About the money issue: he lived in a simple small one-bedroom apartment (btw, it's Oklahoma, so it's not like NYC or LA rent prices!), had minimum furniture and belongings, one car and not even remote perspective of getting rich. He confessed me about his $20,000 debt BEFORE getting married and that could have actually played a role, too: I didn't want him to think that I said "No BECAUSE of all that money trouble. If by now marriage to him seemed to be possible, might as well go ahead and do it now, and don't disappoint him or hurt him.

I thought, we could work it out, am used to live modestly if I have to.
My wedding could not have been further away from any Russian girl's dream. My sister had 150 guests - we had two, just enough to sign as witnesses. She had a gorgeous gown - I made my wedding dress by hand (never sewn before). Extended family, friends, relatives there - and here, I knew nobody and none of his family wanted to ever see him again. We didn't have any reception, got one wedding gift, bought 4-inch Wal-Mart cake and went home. I didn't even allow myself to feel disappointed, so it will not somehow show to him and hurt him.

I should have been understanding of his situation - and so I was. Swallowed up wedding disappointment, tried to be as frugal as possible to help him save money to pay off the debt - cooking at home, never going out, to movies, buying any house stuff, or clothes, or shoes only on garage sales for no more then 50c each... And having to bite my tongue when he'd come home with a new floor lamp, fancy notebooks for his writings, or a puppy that needed shots, food, cage, and most of all, attention - while we were gone all day, both working two jobs. It's a whole different story how he literally kicked me out to work, when I was just mortified to be along, not being able to speak English (we never had money for classes) at any satisfactory level, and having to deal with people; when it was hard enough for me to do back in Russia.

I don't know how I got hired; that's where I learned everything. This is also where I have warmed up to people, as everyone was very friendly and patient, very understanding to my language difficulties and adjustment problems. I was in heavens. I felt more at home then I ever did back in Russia. If you have ever been there, you probably noticed how people always seem frustrated, pushy, angry, lashing out on each other (I could never learn that to become comfortable with it, feel the same), how they never smile. Here, I learned to smile - it wasn't a fake plastic smile that I sometimes hear people call American smile; no, it was a happy genuine smile. Because everybody smiled, and said "Hi", and was friendly. I was reborn.
I never felt homesick, never missed anything back home. I had no attachments there, no emotional ties with my family, no close friends, nobody that seemed to care whether I live or die. When I was leaving at Moscow airport, I was VERY shocked to see my Mom crying - does she actually love me?? Until then, I never saw any signs of that, no sympathy, no attachment to me.. In my family, it was almost embarrassing to say "I love you", "I miss you", call loving names. I grew up the same way, so it was much easier for me to say those things in English, because I literally felt as an infant learning life all over again. Actually, that was partially what helped me to learn English faster, and adjust to anything new.

See, I didn't really need somebody very handsome, or rich, or even very educated for that matter, and not really young - just someone who will love me to death and I can be sure of it. I actually thought that his age would make him more likely to love me more, appreciate me, value me, be more understanding to me, and be faithful to me. That was my idea from books, and that's what it seemed like at first.
I actually found pride in a fact that we are different from the rest; that we do have real love, despite what everybody thinks. Our age difference made me feel more secure - he will not go away with some young chick, he already got one! (But guess what - not too long ago I found all of his files& folders, in which he meticulously kept track of which girls and when he was writing to, what about; all while married to ME!!)

It just never occurred to me that people around might find us weird and even disgusting (real comment)... when we'd hug or kiss, hold hands in public. I can definitely see it now why that would be the case. Now, it gives me chills to even think what all those people must have thought of me back then - she is with him, she is a w...., and he must be filthy rich. Then, I was in love and simply didn't see any of that - otherwise, I could not have done it. For some strange reason, it's very important what people think of me - still. Darn it."

[Gator]

We were asked not to post pictures....

IIRC she posted the photo. 

[GregfromGa]

I'm really happy this animal will die in prison.

[So Cal Joe]

Dan,
I know the Olga and Mike Conroy story very well.  The facts as you state them are extremely accurate. I knew Myke when he was planning on bringing Olga over, and my RW wife and I met them in their Guthrie, Oklahoma home in 2003. Myke was teaching at the Univ of Oklahoma, Oklahoma City at the time.  How do I know it wasn't one of his many other lies?  Because I walked onto the campus and saw him in front of a class!  Indeed, unless you physically saw Myke doing the things he always bragged about, you never knew what was true and what wasn't.

Myke was smooth, very smooth.  Everyone gives Olga crap for not seeing through him.  Let me tell you, of the 15-20 guys I know who met him and Olga from 2000-2005, not one thought he was a fraud or dangerous. He claimed to be a decorated USMC officer, wounded in Vietnam, etc. He was active in the OK Military groups, and attended military functions in uniform.

When my wife and I and my kids stayed in their home, the only thing that was obvious to me was that Olga was young and a bit overwhelmed,  However, Myke was as loving and warm as could be.  He was smooth, I am telling you.

When Myke's true self came out and he almost killed her, we communicated with her and raised money for her to survive for a few months as Myke's criminal case progressed.  He fought the charges hard. Olga had left the state by then and had to fly back 3-4 times for the trial.  It was a helluva burden, but she had to do it because after he was arrested she went about piecing together his story.  She learned that the reason he had no family was because he had violently attacked various family members over the years, starting with a rape/attempt murder Myke inflicted against one of his sisters friends when he was 16.  The victim was brutally beaten with a block of cement and Myke must have been mightily surprised to find out she lived after he left her for dead.  He went to prison behind that, and committed other sex offenses after being released.  He went back to prison, married a Vietnamese woman, divorced her, and then found Olga.  He had only been released from prison four years before Olga met him.

If anyone wants to know what happened since, let me know.

Joe W.
P.S.  I've been doing the Yahoo Group thing for a long time.  Yeah, I know, pretty 2002, so I may not answer this right away as I learn to navigate it...

[Ade]

Joe, thanks, I for one appreciate a first person perspective on this.

I must admit to having more than a little horrified fascination with this story but besides that, I really do think people can learn some important lessons from it.

Perhaps one of the really important things that this story highlights is that young people, no matter how much they protest otherwise, sometimes do not have the remotest clue about what they want or what they will want in the future. Occasionally they get caught up in situations which, while on the surface they look entirely comfortable with will in reality be wondering, "how the hell did I get here and how do I get out of it?" And of course, young inexperienced people, screwed up or not, will make very bad decisions at some point, often because they delude themselves with wishful thinking.

Those men dating girls in their late teens and early twenties should really take this to heart as, without a doubt, at least a few of them will learn it the hard way sooner or later. This is especially the case when men are several decades older, and are also deluding themselves with wishful thinking when their teenage bride-to-be says, "I really don't want kids", or "I really don't mind sleeping with a geriatric when I'm 30", etc. In situations like this, men should be the adults and protect the girls from themselves by refusing to take part in the delusion.

This story also shows that checks and balances in the fiancée visa system are absolutely needed to help prevent predators like Myke from misleading women; it's a pity that the IMBRA-type disclosure rules aren't required by all countries.

[ECOCKS]

I had also begun assembling this story together from the bits and pieces located here and around the web. True tragedy, thankfully though, she and her son survived.

The first thought I had after reading your post (which I had read maybe 3 hours ago on another site) was, "Hmmm, Dan is interested in this also. Maybe we should have a project to assemble the 10 Commandments (or 7 or 12) for Women?" I also confess that I haven't read the RWD book and have the question in my mind (now) as to how well it addresses the situation from the FSUW's perspective in this journey.

The second thought I had concerned making the Conroy story and another one I found (Katerina Sheridan) required reading for the women I have met who are considering marrying WM.

The third thought was how good it would be if either this board or another one could provide a forum atmosphere which was more (or at least equally) focused on supporting the women. While there are some sites like antidate and the Russian women's forum, a mixed forum where men were more welcome and also able to contribute viewpoints to the women might be worthwhile. Consider for a moment Aloe's use of the forum when she had her crisis moment a month or so ago.

Then there was your question about what we found in the story.

Danger signs to highlight as we look at their stories?

* loss of control of documentation and identity
* failure of the government to insure that new US residents know their rights
* age gap is glaring in this instance (more on that later though)
* 1 visit and starting paperwork
* the dangers of culture shock being "too positive" and hiding things

While IMBRA and VAWA made progress on these issues, the Sheridan story occurred in 2007 so there are still problems not addressed yet.

These were first thoughts and I look forward to an interesting thread where we may hopefully stay on topic and discuss the issues at hand.

[Shostakovich]

An interesting topic that, I think, illustrates a dynamic that plays out in all relationships to one extent or another and is probably much more significant in this enterprise.  Much of what gets discussed here relates to factors that distinguish the FSU from the West.  It is as if success in a relationship is perceived as being primarily a matter of understanding of cultural factors in play between WM and FSU W.  While it is important to understand these dynamics, which I very much enjoy,  I think that this effort is largely misplaced - the wrong question is being debated.  My view is that basic male-female factors and other factors, more philosophical in nature, that concern what relationships are for are the primary ones that determine relationship success.  If you understand those factors correctly, the business of negotiating cultural differences comes easy and one does not need much knowledge to manage it.

A question for me for a long time concerns the basic force that propels M/F to seek long term relationships.  Male sexuality is not monogamous.  I am not certain that female sexuality is either, though the prospect and certainly the event of pregnancy puts certain limits on promiscuous behavior.  We live in an age where the influence of religion declines and yet the momentum of religiously inspired values certainly holds sway.  Our current notions about monogamy express this momentum, though our minds are generally opaque to the reasons that underlie it.  The reasons for monogamy get to be a long discussion that I am not going to attempt here.  Beyond instinctive desires for reproduction, which explain most of M/F behavior, there are also powerful psychological factors that compel M/F coupling.  My view is that the basic human drive is not pleasure, not power, certainly not sex but to find completion.  The human condition is generally an incomplete condition.  As M/F fulfill very different roles in life this psychological differential supplies the force to couple thus finding this completion.  But this force is something of a trickster, one of the elements that makes romance so pleasurable is the illusion of completion.  This happens early on and in the vacuum of real understanding of the other we imagine them to be what we want them to be.  But this proves a fallacy and the dawning of this realization proves to be the undoing of many a relationship I suspect.  Now let us think about this in our 'international dating' enterprise.  We write letters, so romantic, we travel and meet on vacations, free form obligations,  and enjoy the contact and stimulation of life in a foreign land, with new experiences to share.   One experience from my SPB trip I will never forget.  During one of our last meals I went to the rest room and came out to find this great spread of fruits on the table.  For Oksana; pineapple, Kiwi and mango were exotic experiences.  With the wave of the wallet AM can open doors to experiences for the RW that are truly extraordinary - it probably makes us seem like something of a God.  And what do these girls do to pay in kind?  In this enterprise the romantic element is exaggerated and artificially preserved and extended - one does not have the time with the other to really find out about them.  There is no normal time together where one may expose those issues that could disrupt a marital partnership, preserving the illusion.  These factors are illustrated over and over again in the story posted by the OP.  The girl wants a father figure, someone to protect her, age differences prove true love, etc. etc.

So there you have it - So easy to believe in the notion of true love in this game.  Indeed I think a fair number of men are here, not because of feminism as they say, but because they can't cope with real relationships and so enter a game where, for a while at least, they have all the power, satisfy their sexual desires with a great girl for awhile, and where the factors that would shatter the illusion of love, never rise to the surface.

Crikey, that was tedious   

[ECOCKS]

You almost have me on board except for that crack about male sexuality not being monagamous.

[Shostakovich]

Ecocks,

Males sexuality is not monogamous, other factors come to the fore to over-rule the sexual forces and bring it into line.  Those are moral and intellectual forces, which in fact in our present age I think are on the decline.

[Maxx2]

I am interested in what our experienced members 'see' in this story that might be helpful to our members.

Comments?

- Dan

I see this as a story similar to a school shooting. The reaction is going to be to create new laws so this doesn't happen again. The laws do not work. Children continue to be shot and wives continue to be raped. The bad guys like Mike always figure a way around the system. In the meantime decent men cannot purchase a gun because they had a bout, several years back, of post traumatic stress syndrome after they served their country in Iraq. Or they cannot contact a foreign woman without revealing first that they had been arrested for something that they were later found not guilty of. Fifth Amendments rights be damned. Even basic judicial rights such as presenting their side of the story to the USCIS are denied if an immigrant spouse accuses them of abuse. One by one by the use of sensational stories such as Mike and Olga's we lose our freedoms and liberties. Good people suffer and the hardened bad guys just sluff this off like water off the back of a duck.

What should be done is a background check on all USCs sponsoring a K visa. This should be sent to the petitioner and discussed with them at the embassy interview. IMBRA would not have stopped Mike. There are all kinds of ways to skirt the system for criminals like Mike. Here's something on that    http://www.cis.org/marriagefraud

[ECOCKS]

Ecocks,

Males sexuality is not monogamous, other factors come to the fore to over-rule the sexual forces and bring it into line.  Those are moral and intellectual forces, which in fact in our present age I think are on the decline.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Nature vs. nurture, life goes on. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Shostakovich]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Nature vs. nurture, life goes on. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Ecocks - you are arguing my point.  The nature of male sexuality is to seek out suitable hosts for reproduction.  In its raw form and unchecked it simply goes on doing that.  But these sexual impulses are conditioned or nurtured through various influences: social, moral and intellectual.  This is demonstrated by the fact that most men go about sizing up girls for mating potential all the time, but do not act upon those impulses as they are checked by the other factors mentioned.  Another demonstration is made by the behaviors observed during war time or during natural disasters.  The governing factors of law and social sanction are temporarily lifted; the general result being all kinds of raping and pillaging - for a sizable segment of society the individual moral code does not keep the animal at bay.

[ECOCKS]

Ecocks - you are arguing my point.  The nature of male sexuality is to seek out suitable hosts for reproduction.  In its raw form and unchecked it simply goes on doing that.  But these sexual impulses are conditioned or nurtured through various influences: social, moral and intellectual.  This is demonstrated by the fact that most men go about sizing up girls for mating potential all the time, but do not act upon those impulses as they are checked by the other factors mentioned.  Another demonstration is made by the behaviors observed during war time or during natural disasters.  The governing factors of law and social sanction are temporarily lifted; the general result being all kinds of raping and pillaging - for a sizable segment of society the individual moral code does not keep the animal at bay.

Uh, no, I clearly said we can agree to disagree. You, obviously don't want to do that and are trying to make this into an argument.

 

[Shostakovich]

Funny

[Ade]

Funny

I would agree with that. Good post above and I think I agree with quite a lot of it.

Ed, bad day or something? Unless your opinion is that male sexuality if inherently monogamous, which it isn't as far as I know, then you and Shosy here are in agreement.

[ECOCKS]

SJ -

I don't know whether male sexuality is monogonous or not. What I believe though, is that it is no different from that of females with regard to monogamy. Hence, my willingness to agree to disagree on that subject.

[Admin]

I have a series of questions for our members as they read the account of Mike and Olga.

First of them is: A Case for IMBRA?

The obvious glaring issue is that Mike Conroy was a violent sexual predator. He preyed on others prior to meeting Olga, and he was physically abusive to Olga in their marriage.

I noted Olga's physical stature. She was a mere 5 feet tall, weighing 97 pounds and stated that she stopped growing at age 14. Even her petitite size is likely to have been a factor in Conroy's seeking her out, as one of his previous convictions had been for lewd molestation and lewd or indecent proposals/acts to a child. Olga's tiny size, her admitted naivety, and her eventual dependence on him once in the US would have made her almost childlike. The perfect target for a pedophile.

Do you think this case makes a compelling argument for legislation such as IMBRA that requires background searches and full disclosure?

- Dan

[Turboguy]

I used to be very anti-IMBRA.   I am a little less so these days.  If there were hundreds of cases like Mike and Olga then I think I would be more pro-IMBRA.   The reality is cases like that are a rare exception and a minuscule number comparted to the number of K-1 visas. 

I think the concept of IMBRA is good.  I think if the background checks and disclosures were at the visa application stage and not at the initial contact stage I would be pro IMBRA.  Requiring background checks before you even say hello and find out if there is any interest is not right.

Another thing too.  Most of the cultures foreign women come from no matter if they are from the FSU or S.A or Asia have such a much higher incidence of spousal abuse and murder that without any background checks the foreign women are probably in more danger staying there than coming here. Is it really protecting them?

[SMS60]

Do you think this case makes a compelling argument for legislation such as IMBRA that requires background searches and full disclosure?

As cold as it may sound I would have to say No. The story is sad and disgusting but as is so much in life. We cant control it all.

When you live in a free society there are dangers in everyday life. Its part of having freedoms.

Big brother cannot protect you 24/7. Personal responsibility comes into play at some point.

Sometimes we will have to experience events like these. We cant stop them. Having laws to say how and who we should date or obtain permission to date is going down the wrong road. We dont want to go any further than we already have.

I could see one day sending an application to the state to be stamped for me to see Mary Jo on the other side of the city. Mary Jo would want me to present this document on the first date.

[Gylden]

 Dan I would have to say that, sure it makes a compelling case for the argument.

Questions;
1. Are there the same disclosure requirements for domestic marriages/contacts?
2. Are the penalties sufficient to prevent non-compliance?

[Admin]

Consider that as part of processing a K-1 visa, your fiance/e will be required to undergo a background investigation - that is, s/he is required to collect police reports. You will, therefore, see any criminal history there may be in the record.

While I recognize this is but a single datapoint - insofar as its presentation here - consider the following murder cases:

* Anastasia King
* Alla Barney
* Susanna Blackwell
* Nina Reiser

And these well-publicized abuse cases, including the Sheridan case ECOCKS mentioned upthread:

* Shortly after Katerina Sheridan, a young woman from Siberia, married Frank Sheridan, he kept her a virtual prisoner, forbidding her to keep her own set of house keys, and taking away her visa, passport, and birth certificate. Later, he also took away her cell phone and cut all the phone lines in the house. He flew into violent rages, on one occasion beating Katerina and dragging her around the house by her legs. After several such incidents, Katerina told him that she wanted to go back to Russia. In retaliation, Sheridan stabbed himself and then accused her of doing it to get her thrown in jail. Later, Katerina managed to make it to a women’s shelter, but Sheridan stalked her relentlessly and tried to get her detained and deported. When police went to arrest Frank for aggravated stalking, they discovered he was in Russia looking for a new bride. Months later, when an officer went to arrest Sheridan for another stalking-related crime, he shot the officer. The deputy returned fire and killed Sheridan.

* Soon after “Medina,” a Ukrainian college professor, married “Thomas,” a well-respected doctor, Thomas turned controlling and violent. Among other outbursts, he threatened Medina with a knife; kicked her in the chest; and even attempted to push her out of a moving car. Thomas also slept with an ax in his drawer and threatened to have her deported if she ever called the police. Medina left Thomas after he broke her son’s finger. Today, Medina continues to live in constant fear of Thomas, who stalks and harasses her. Despite knowing about Medina’s abuse, the IMB facilitated a new match between Thomas and another Ukrainian woman who also later fled because of abuse. Medina was Thomas’ third wife; he had also abused at least one of his prior wives.

* Though she was trained as an accountant, Norman McDonald compelled his Ukrainian wife to take several waitress jobs and rely on him for transportation so he would have long stretches of time alone with her daughter, who was only 3 when the couple married. With his wife securely out of the house, McDonald showed the toddler pornographic videos of what he wanted to do to her and then raped her. Two years after the abuse started, his wife discovered what McDonald was doing and immediately contacted the police. Authorities found more than 10,000 images of child pornography in McDonald’s computer and hundreds of video clips that depicted him having sex with his stepdaughter. McDonald’s 28-year-old daughter from a previous marriage testified that her father had also abused her as a child.

* A young Ukrainian medical student named “Nina” married “John,” a U.S. military officer residing in Virginia whom she met through a Maryland-based IMB with a “satisfaction guaranteed” policy. Throughout their one-year marriage, John repeatedly physically and emotionally abused Nina, shaking her violently and insisting that she repeat the commands he gave her. He choked, raped, and beat her on several occasions, ripped a tooth out of her mouth, and threatened her with a knife. When Nina informed the president of the IMB about the abuse, the president said that Nina’s experience was normal and that many girls had the same problem. The president said domestic violence is “just the American culture,” and abuse is “very hard to prove.”

My primary point being that, sadly, we are NOT speaking of a single isolated incident. The argument may be made that even this number of cases is statistically insignificant, it begs the question of - if only one is spared by information disclosure, is it worth it?

And BTW - the above only draws on the incidents with women from the FSU. If we broaden the search to include women from Asia and/or Latin America, the incidents increase significantly.

- Dan

[SMS60]

The 4 accounts listed above could not have been stopped by IMBRA. Unless Im reading wrong all the abuse happened after the woman arrived in the states. It does not say if the petitioners had previous records of abuse.???? Does not sound like it.

If the present laws were enforced some of the above would not have reached the critical points. Some of what I read seems as if crimes of abuse were committed but not punished the way the laws state.

I still say No.

We must enforce the laws we have and forget about new ones.

[ECOCKS]

Yes, I believe it justifies, or at least contributes to the justification of, IMBRA.

Consider that without it, there could well be more predators attempting to use the lack of understanding of researching someone in another country. It's well worth adding to the case that there is some preventative measure added by IMBRA.

Further, I don't quite get the hangup about IMBRA from some folks. Did it hold anything up? Was it anything more than an attestation statement or form for most of the agencies? That's on top of many people don't even use the functions of an agency for anything other than an initial contact. Using them as a dating resource doesn't seem to add much of a hitch in the process.

[ECOCKS]

The 4 accounts listed above could not have been stopped by IMBRA. Unless Im reading wrong all the abuse happened after the woman arrived in the states. It does not say if the petitioners had previous records of abuse.???? Does not sound like it.

If the present laws were enforced some of the above would not have reached the critical points. Some of what I read seems as if crimes of abuse were committed but not punished the way the laws state.

I still say No.

We must enforce the laws we have and forget about new ones.

Re-read the Conroy story paying particular attention to his two previous convictions.