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No one wants an escalation of the current conflict-but-- it looks to me that Putin has set out to create the climate and excuse for Russia to move further into Ukraine - so what will happen if he does?
What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
http://theweek.com/article/index/257406/what-would-a-us-russia-war-look-like
A conventional war in Eastern Europe
This is the other scenario that never happened in the Cold War. Now, the possibility of scenario one (nuclear Armageddon) makes this one almost equally unlikely. But for the sake of argument, let's assume this hypothetical U.S.-Russia war breaks out in Ukraine, and that other NATO forces are supplementing U.S. troops, ships, and aircraft. Unlike in the Asia-Pacific, where the U.S. keeps China in check (and vice versa, as Eugene Chow explained), NATO provides the United States with a robust military alliance set up specifically to take on Soviet Russia.
A proxy war
Short of a negotiated peace with no casualties, this is the best of the bad options. The U.S. and Russia have already fought a string of proxy wars, the big ones being Vietnam to Afghanistan. In this scenario, the U.S. might finance Ukrainian forces to fight Russian soldiers, with the probable goal of driving them out of Ukrainian territory. Or, should the U.S. or NATO back the Ukrainian army, Russia might fund pro-Moscow separatist movements in Ukraine against it.
Added Later
Worth reading!!
Games Kabanenko said that now is the moment of truth. "If we make any moves with a delay, it is creating new risks. Military affairs policy must act decisively," - he said.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/vice-admiral-poyasniv-chomu-ukrayinci-peremozhut-u-viyni-z-rosiyeyu-339951.html
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Jay,
I haven't read the article yet. I just wanted to thank you for continuing to post up news. I like the new style too. Much easier to read by clicking on the link. Before it was so broken up it was hard to follow. Plus.....the Admin. is happy :clapping:
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Thx LD-- regardless of what a few think there is nothing remotely as important right now to most of our interests in Ukraine ( & Russia) to compare with this ongoing and fast moving crisis. The simple fact now is that any beginner interested in the FSU ( soon to be again?? :) ) would not be wise to be making a first trip--especially so if not Russian speaking. So--best advice is to put all on hold-wait & see for the moment.
Some of the links I use are not obvious-often they do not appear in English speaking search engines - and have some very interesting material. They are also well ahead of western media sources and I often see it used days later!!!
So here is one just in below. Earlier today I have been seeing reports of Ukrainian troops and hardware taking up defensive positions in eastern and southern Ukraine .
http://tsn.ua/politika/ukrayinska-armiya-grupuyetsya-na-shidnih-ta-pivdennih-kordonah-dlya-protivagi-rosiyanam-340124.html
This is a pre-cursor to declaring martial law.
Turchynov signed a decree on partial mobilization, which will take effect after enactment.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/turchinov-pidpisav-ukaz-pro-ogoloshennya-voyennogo-stanu-ta-chastkovu-zagalnu-mobilizaciyu-v-armiyu-340154.html
Russian Military Obsolete?
Columnist notes that the armed forces of only 26% upgraded. UNIAN Russian army is not ready for long fight with Ukraine Army of currently the largest in Eastern Europe, but it is outdated and can not win in the long conflict.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/armiya-rosiyi-moralno-zastarila-i-ne-gotova-dovgo-voyuvati-z-ukrayinoyu-the-washington-post-339101.html
Putin Bluffing?
The German edition has analyzed whether the Russian economy to withstand sanctions to the Kremlin fought in Ukraine. AFP Putin is bluffing and has no money for the army and the war in Ukraine President of Russia only pretends strong leader, who allegedly did not frighten Western sanctions. But in reality it lacks the Army prepared for a long war with Ukraine, nor the money to do so.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/putin-blefuye-i-ne-maye-armiyi-ta-groshey-dlya-viyni-v-ukrayini-bild-339580.html
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What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
It will look like a Ukrainian civil war.
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Jay,
Any war will be fought on the economic front. Troops on the ground? Very doubtful.
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Jay,
Any war will be fought on the economic front. Troops on the ground? Very doubtful.
That should benefit Russia tremendously.
Right now, a naval battle between the Russian BSF and the US 6th fleet would last maybe half a day with all the Russian ships in the bottom of the Black Sea.
http://russiamil.wordpress.com/ (http://russiamil.wordpress.com/)
Basically, it is in Putin's best interest that the rest of the world accept his North Korean doctrine (he is crazy enough to start a nuclear war so let him do what he wants) and push along as far as he can. He'd be hard pressed if some other lunatic, like a Ted Cruz, would be US President. Then he'd be forced to use his nuclear warheads because he is going to lose a conventional war with US/NATO.
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Jay,
Any war will be fought on the economic front. Troops on the ground? Very doubtful.
Yep, troops that already on the ground are fiction of imagination. 8)
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Yep, troops that already on the ground are fiction of imagination. 8)
I'm guessing (hoping?) that he means U.S. troops v Russian troops. Even the "average" Russian must surely know by now that, despite what Putin has claimed, there ARE Russian troops in Ukraine.
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Even the "average" Russian must surely know by now that, despite what Putin has claimed, there ARE Russian troops in Ukraine.
Russian Spetsnaz have been infiltrating Ukraine since the Kyiv Maidan protests. They were supposedly participating on both sides of the Maidan struggle, passing false information to Police or whoever, in attempts to sway the events.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK2In1AgFQU
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lets all hope it wont escalate to open conflict involving the military
while many supposed experts are saying it wont happen and its putins bluff , honestly id not be surprised if it goes ahead, currently it wont take much to spark it off either in crimea or ukraine proper
if the destabilisation of the south east doesnt work as he had planned , he might up the anti even more in the near future
if it where to happen , even if putin is able to initially put forces into ukraine quickly at the outset, it will be bloody and protracted imho , slowly inevitably dragging in other players
SX
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It will look like a Ukrainian civil war.
That is sort of how I see it-- with Ukraine intent on preventing invasion. EG- Ukraine defending ground but not moving into Russia . If it came to military action then this would be preferrered containment( my preference is for the Russians to leave voluntarily without bloodshed-the damage done to Ukraine paid for by zeroing any debts to Russia!!)
Hopefully Ukraine will have the assistance of NATO as the US and UK honour the treaties it holds with Ukraine.
Jay,
Any war will be fought on the economic front. Troops on the ground? Very doubtful.
The economic pressure that is induceable is potentially substantial-- paticularly when it hits Putin's cronies and they start to see personal wealth diminishing--both in Russia and elsewhere.These people will get rid of Putin asap once the writing is on the wall. Combine that with military action-- and you have the ingredients to resolve this crisis.If Ukraine gets the military backing it needs--they will be effective on the ground.
lets all hope it wont escalate to open conflict involving the military
SX
Agreed.
Unfortunately I tend to think the provocations are the pre cursor to create the climate for an excuse to invade. Putin is either insane--or deluded--probably both-- and that is just plain dangerous to Ukraine-- and to the rest of the world.
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The economic pressure that is induceable is potentially substantial-- paticularly when it hits Putin's cronies and they start to see personal wealth diminishing--both in Russia and elsewhere.
Wait, are you saying they are capitalists !!! :o ;D :D
and just to chime in on your previous post.. it is not that news is not important.. it is simply better left to actual news organizations. One of my idols said it best.. paraphrasing, but... You can not cram the truth down someone's throat, despite the tasty truthfulness, the cramming makes it palatable.
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Wait, are you saying they are capitalists !!! :o ;D :D
and just to chime in on your previous post.. it is not that news is not important.. it is simply better left to actual news organizations. One of my idols said it best.. paraphrasing, but... You can not cram the truth down someone's throat, despite the tasty truthfulness, the cramming makes it palatable.
Part of the point has been that I posted translated version- not everone can translate. I also see little point in rewriting ( as some do!!) extensive material that someone else has already covered.This crisis was and still is moving at an extraordinary rate -with so many relevant side issues needing wider explanations .That is where links are crucial-- eg- saying there is concentrated Russian Propaganda is best illustrated to see for oneself -- rather than spend time in silly dispute about semantics.My last point-- some links are to news releases--ie the material that later news organisations use to base material on.
Regardless--I take your point. :)
Re Capitalists-- well yes-- the absolute extreme end of ugly exploitative extreme end of undesirable capitalism-- the thieving corrupt end!! ;D
ADDED LATER
France threatens military response to Russian aggression in Crimea
French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius Russia threatens military response to aggression in the Crimea and in the desire to annex the Ukrainian peninsula.
The minister said that this is the biggest crisis since the Cold War. The Minister said, speaking in French broadcast channel TF1. "After a certain point the reaction, including the strength, we can not let them do it. Initially France may terminate a contract with Russia for the supply of two ships Mistral, being built in Saint-Nazaire.
If Putin continues what he is doing, we can consider the cancellation of the supply, "- said the Minister. Interestingly, the construction of ships Mistral has created in France about a thousand jobs. For, these ships opened access to advanced military technology.
Source: http://tsn.ua/politika/franciya-pogrozhuye-rosiyi-viyskovoyu-vidpoviddyu-na-agresiyu-v-krimu-340335.html
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It will be a proxy war.
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Unfortunately I tend to think the provocations are the pre cursor to create the climate for an excuse to invade. Putin is either insane--or deluded--probably both-- and that is just plain dangerous to Ukraine-- and to the rest of the world.
yes , it is most likely how it wil be started if it does happen
putin is however not insane or deluded
he is imho a typical male of his generation and social enviroment ,hard nosed and practical , do what you must to achieve your aim , you dont work in the areas he has in germany under soviet rule etc without learning certain skills , evaluating people and manipulating/intimidating them among others is stock in trade,
he has imho made the decision his plan will pay off in the longer term , he accepts his country will take some negative for it , but in the pragmatic longer term he will make it into russian history as a strong leader who reunified parts of the FSU
question is really how far is he ready to go to do that , before he gets some significant push back
at present it doesnt look good
SX
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To be honest and I don't wish to insult or offend any US citizens on here.
I can't stand the fact that any time there is conflict the US has to stick their nose into it!
I am not political or don't know too much about politics however it seems to me that EVERY time there is a dispute the US have to get involved.
My girl is from Russia and she doesn't even like this situation in fact she hates that it has come to this...
Sorry if I offended I have heaps of US friends and don't wish to offend in any way.
Let these 2 countries sort it out themselves I think
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How do you propose the two countries sort it out themselves ?
Russia has invaded part of Ukraine and stolen it's land.
If Russia decides to invade the rest of Ukraine,you think Putin and his cronies will take notice of any Ukrainian protestations. ?
All looks a bit one-sided to me ,unless other countries step in and help Ukraine with military intervention.
And I'm a Brit..not US.
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To be honest and I don't wish to insult or offend any US citizens on here.
I can't stand the fact that any time there is conflict the US has to stick their nose into it!
I am not political or don't know too much about politics however it seems to me that EVERY time there is a dispute the US have to get involved.
My girl is from Russia and she doesn't even like this situation in fact she hates that it has come to this...
Sorry if I offended I have heaps of US friends and don't wish to offend in any way.
Let these 2 countries sort it out themselves I think
I'm an American and I completely agree and I suspect a lot of others do too. Perhaps there was a time when USA acted as world police by necessity because no one else had the resources. That is not the case anymore. IMHO, we (meaning the US of A) need to get the UN off it's duff and sort this out as part of the UN, and even then, only to ensure elections are legit, ensure safe passage for those that want out and to *help* defend the defenseless. The US has no more right to dictate Ukraine's future than Putin does.
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To be honest and I don't wish to insult or offend any US citizens on here.
I can't stand the fact that any time there is conflict the US has to stick their nose into it!
I am not political or don't know too much about politics however it seems to me that EVERY time there is a dispute the US have to get involved.
My girl is from Russia and she doesn't even like this situation in fact she hates that it has come to this...
Sorry if I offended I have heaps of US friends and don't wish to offend in any way.
Let these 2 countries sort it out themselves I think
Daz--this is not about the US. The politics here are clear enough-- any action will be the result of long standing treaties that The US is party to-- for me personally I want them to honour those obligations. Thru NATO taking a strong emphatic stance is the way to prevent loss of life- and that will only be after all other measures are tried to make Putins Russia see some sense.
I have been sceptical enough myself about US motives historically-- but when the world sat on its hands while the genocide took place in Bosnia I think having a worlds policeman was not such a bad thing. The fact is that the US is the most powerful military-- means its assistance is required to make effective responses.
In this case-- the chances of your girlfriend getting anything close to the factual situation is highly unlikely,See the forum re Russian propaganda --it is in fact telling ludicrous lies. Russia has invaded a foreign country-- and is now threatening to move further.That is simply unacceptable.
The Australian government has made it clear to Russia exactly that point- and Australia will be party and active participant in sanctions against Russia.
I would say to your girlfriend-- wake up about what Putin is dragging Russia into-- there is a simple solution-- Russia can withdraw its troops from Ukrainian territory and stop meddling in Ukrainian internal politics.
This is all about Russia-- not the US of A.
I'm an American and I completely agree and I suspect a lot of others do too. Perhaps there was a time when USA acted as world police by necessity because no one else had the resources. That is not the case anymore. IMHO, we (meaning the US of A) need to get the UN off it's duff and sort this out as part of the UN, and even then, only to ensure elections are legit, ensure safe passage for those that want out and to *help* defend the defenseless. The US has no more right to dictate Ukraine's future than Putin does.
Answer above-- applies equally!! I do not think in any way that the US is dictating or has attempted to . US is a bystander -- and because of treaty obligations has a seat at the table.
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Well, there is that 8 billion $ the US will, possibly has lent the current Ukraine government, I can't imagine there are absolutely no strings attached besides "pay it back when you can". It could be perceived as a sly way to "keep an eye on an investment" via the eyes of US troops, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is exactly what it is.
Yes I am jaded.. I don't trust anyone, especially governments, including my own with few exceptions
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If USA citizens are so frightened of Russia they're afraid to honour their agreement with Ukraine,regarding Ukraine giving up it's Nuclear weapons,then what's the point in the USA having all it's military strength.?
It's highly unlikely anyone will attack USA with all the nuclear missiles at it's disposal,so why not just disband the vast majority of fleets,Air-force and troops..they're not needed...just a waste of taxpayers money.
The same applies to the UK.
Then we can all let Putin do what he wants..oh hang- on he does that anyway.
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HUH? Who said anything about the US being frightened? Frightened of nuclear war perhaps, which seems a fairly reasonable thing to be frightened of... If you are responding to me.. all I am saying is the US should not be the lone force to deal with this.. UN, EU, NATO.. otherwise whats the point of their existence ?
Odd, most don't want the US to act like world police, until they need a country capable of acting like world police.. THATS WHAT NATO and the UN is for !
and to just kill em all and let God sort em out is not a very good diplomatic tactic.. perhaps we should try something a little less Armageddon'ish first? ya think?
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If USA citizens are so frightened of Russia they're afraid to honour their agreement with Ukraine,regarding Ukraine giving up it's Nuclear weapons,then what's the point in the USA having all it's military strength.?
It's highly unlikely anyone will attack USA with all the nuclear missiles at it's disposal,so why not just disband the vast majority of fleets,Air-force and troops..they're not needed...just a waste of taxpayers money.
The same applies to the UK.
Then we can all let Putin do what he wants..oh hang- on he does that anyway.
Nobody is frightened of Russia. We have a weak leader. Yes, that's the leader Europe and the rest of the world was fawning over as the next messiah. Make no mistake, if Obama had the cajones to introduce a military option over Crimea Russia would be gone from Crimea in a matter of days, possibly hours. Russia's military is massive against Ukraine but, the U.S. isn't Ukraine. Putin knows it and he also knows Obama won't use a military option against him for anything.
Come to think of it, where are the Brits? They were in Budapest in 1994, too.
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If USA citizens are so frightened of Russia they're afraid to honour their agreement with Ukraine,regarding Ukraine giving up it's Nuclear weapons,then what's the point in the USA having all it's military strength.?It's highly unlikely anyone will attack USA with all the nuclear missiles at it's disposal,so why not just disband the vast majority of fleets,Air-force and troops..they're not needed...just a waste of taxpayers money.The same applies to the UK.Then we can all let Putin do what he wants..oh hang- on he does that anyway.
It sounds like you're suggesting war.
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If USA citizens are so frightened of Russia they're afraid to honour their agreement with Ukraine,regarding Ukraine giving up it's Nuclear weapons,then what's the point in the USA having all it's military strength.?
It's highly unlikely anyone will attack USA with all the nuclear missiles at it's disposal,so why not just disband the vast majority of fleets,Air-force and troops..they're not needed...just a waste of taxpayers money.
The same applies to the UK.
Then we can all let Putin do what he wants..oh hang- on he does that anyway.
Frightened???? Just remember one thing. The US is the only country to have ever used nuclear weapons against another country........ :popcorn:
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To be honest and I don't wish to insult or offend any US citizens on here.
I can't stand the fact that any time there is conflict the US has to stick their nose into it!
I am not political or don't know too much about politics however it seems to me that EVERY time there is a dispute the US have to get involved.
Not to offend you but, this is exactly the same reason why you feel this way about the US "sticking" its nose into it.
Read, educate, discourse.
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Not to offend you but, this is exactly the same reason why you feel this way about the US "sticking" its nose into it.
Read, educate, discourse.
+1
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...Thru NATO taking a strong emphatic stance is the way to prevent loss of life- and that will only be after all other measures are tried to make Putins Russia see some sense....
Tell that to the Serbians, Bosnians, Albanians, Libyans, Rwandans, etc...will you.
NATO, once a defensive alliance, had turned into strategically marauding post-WW II military force behind western commercial and economic exploratory machinations.
Thus: Location, location, location!
It was us, the US (NATO), that intentionally spurred and armed the KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) (Read: 2014 Venezuela) to rise up against the Serbs & pro-Kremlin Milosevic, that began the Balkans War, which ultimately ended up in us bombing Yugoslavia day & night and Milosevic's final days...NATO IS/WAS the true butcher of the Balkans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia)
For what? The advancement of western ideals and decency? LOL. Give me a break...
"....Although politicians like Tony Blair see hope in the outcome of Kosovo for a "new internationalism where the brutal repression of whole ethnic groups will no longer be tolerated," there are too many signs that the events and repercussions of the Kosovo conflict have been cut from Old-World cloth. The West's response to humanitarian concerns in Kosovo were reinforced by strategic interests in Europe's future and the NATO alliance. If the West were truly committed to the creation of a world system where respect for humanity was of the highest order, we would take notice of other regions of the world where regimes have engaged in heinous crimes against humanity. Unfortunately, the West has ignored many of these cases.
In Rwanda in 1994, approximately 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed in one of the most horrendous examples of genocide since World War II. Two million people fled the country as refugees. The conditions that produced genocide in Rwanda were remarkably similar to those that led to humanitarian violations in Kosovo. A deteriorating political and economic situation led those who sought to maintain their hold on power to brand a group of people as the "scapegoat," which became the target for physical attack and murder. The international community failed to respond. Dominant powers actually resisted effective UN action, and it took over a year for President Clinton to admit that genocide occurred...."
http://www.cpjustice.org/stories/storyReader (http://www.cpjustice.org/stories/storyReader)$646
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If USA citizens are so frightened of Russia they're afraid to honour their agreement with Ukraine,regarding Ukraine giving up it's Nuclear weapons,then what's the point in the USA having all it's military strength.?
Read the agreement. USA never said it would help Ukraine if it were attacked or invaded; USA only said it would not attack or invade Ukraine.
Russia, UK (and later China and France) said the same thing.
Only Russia has violated the agreement.
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As a separate question . . . should USA and other countries provide help anyway?
I vote yes . . . but we can't refer to Budapest Memorandum as the reason.
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This whole the US should do something!" rhetoric is laughable...especially from the same regions of peoples who, at the same time, demonizes the US for, well, "always doing something'.
Ukraine wants to be a part of this clusterphocks?
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NATO taking a strong emphatic stance
NATO isn't that strong. Russia saw it's weaknesses when NATO was in action during Libya. America usually takes the lead on these kinds of operations but Obama wanted everybody to feel important so he let NATO take the lead. Our defense secretary at the time complained the worlds greatest collection of nations in the history of mankind can't even accomplish simple tasks. NATO members weren't living up to their obligations of support. Some nation's responsibility was supplying ammunition for planes and Libyan rebels and couldn't even do that on time or at all.
The more America and Europe show weakness, the chance for world war to materialize increases. People would like to believe todays problems are different than in the past or that we're more civilized. People have a good idea how WWII started but WWI started differently with an assassination.
Who really knows what it takes to have things get out of hand? Showing weakness increases the odds that things will get out of hand. What we do know is there are countries with interests that threaten our interests. Russia currently wants to annex surrounding territories. North Korea wants South Korea and nukes, Iran wants nukes and the elimination of Jews from Israel, China wants Taiwan, Arab nations would like to see Israel go, poor Arab nations would like to have oil rich Arab nations, etc... What better time in history for some of these countries to make their move than in a time of America's weakness and encourage America's decline? By all those countries collaborating and acting together, they can exploit America's weakness even better as we would have to act on multiple fronts. It's no secret behind closed doors they had meetings in the past on how to beat America militarily and economically. The only question left is the best time to act.
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One more look at an old classic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJ8ZCs4jY&feature=kp
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The Truth? The Truth?
The truth is that there is no real separation between Russians and Ukrainians. Especially in Ukraine. This great enmity is manufactured for political purposes.
If bullets start flying, and Ukraine is seen as the victim, there will be a great groundswell against Russia and the militant Russian agents in Ukraine.
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Faux Pas,
Yes,i did say the same applies to the UK..so we're equally culpable for our inaction.
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The Truth? The Truth?
The truth is that there is no real separation between Russians and Ukrainians. Especially in Ukraine. This great enmity is manufactured for political purposes.
If bullets start flying, and Ukraine is seen as the victim, there will be a great groundswell against Russia and the militant Russian agents in Ukraine.
What is truth? Is truth unchanging law?
A Ukrainian serviceman has died after being shot dead in the storming of a Ukrainian military base in Simferopol, Crimea, according to a military spokesman. He said a captain was also injured and taken to hospital and other Ukrainian servicemen were arrested.
The Ukrainian military spokesman described the attackers as “unknown forces, fully equipped”. Russia reportedly said that Crimean self-defence fighters were shot by a sniper.
Following the shooting, the Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, accused Russia of a “war crime”. He also said the conflict had moved from the political to the military stage.
BUT
Russia has offered an alternative version of events in Simferopol.
#Russia (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Russia&src=hash) version of Simferopol shooting says #Crimea (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Crimea&src=hash) "self-defense fighters were shot by a sniper," 1 killed.
The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/ukraine-crisis-putin-plan-crimea-annex-speech-russia-live)
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A Ukrainian serviceman has died after being shot dead in the storming of a Ukrainian military base in Simferopol, Crimea, according to a military spokesman. He said a captain was also injured and taken to hospital and other Ukrainian servicemen were arrested.
It seems Ukrainian soldiers are now trespassing on another country's land and lethal action will be used against them.
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Not to split hairs here...its interesting to note, even before the referendum voting, Crimea had always been known as 'The Autonomous Republic of Crimea' and while it is a constituent part of Ukraine, it is not for all intent and purposes - 'Ukraine'. Hence, there hasn't been a cause for the Budapest Agreement to be at play here.
Now that Crimea population had voted for its self-determination, their basic right as an autonomous republic state, their assession to the Russian Federation should in no way be any different with Ukraine's interest to align with the west.
So, it should be all over but the shouting and hooray for Ukraine and Crimea....
Apparently in the next month or so, there will be a public auction for homes built, recently purchased or owned by 'ethnic-Ukrainians inside Crimea, which will be open for all Russian nationals and their spouses.
:P
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Apparently in the next month or so, there will be a public auction for homes built, recently purchased or owned by 'ethnic-Ukrainians inside Crimea, which will be open for all Russian nationals and their spouses.
:P
Didn't Stalin tried that in Donetsk, Lughansk and Kharkiv back in the early '30s?
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Crimea had always been known as 'The Autonomous Republic of Crimea' and while it is a constituent part of Ukraine, it is not for all intent and purposes - 'Ukraine'.
If Crimea was never part of Ukraine, why did they feel they needed to vote to be independent and secede from Ukraine? Canada could hold a vote and secede from America but it would be a little silly to do so if they already viewed themselves as a separate nation.
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If Crimea was never part of Ukraine, why did they feel they needed to vote to be independent and secede from Ukraine? Canada could hold a vote and secede from America but it would be a little silly to do so if they already viewed themselves as a separate nation.
LOL. There's something seriously faulty in your logic.
Anyway, while not exactly the same but comparatively closer in context of constituency, think Puerto Rico and the US...
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what if....
http://www.ibtimes.com/what-if-texas-really-were-its-own-country-880112
and decided to 'go with Mexico'....
just 'what if.....'
Get the picture?
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Didn't Stalin tried that in Donetsk, Lughansk and Kharkiv back in the early '30s?
...and did again along the central/eastern bloc European countries shortly after WW - II until he died. I can only hope that JustMe was smart enough to run to the bank before all these crappola happened and exchange her grivnas to rubles, LOL. She'll be psyht out of luck if she didn't.
But then again, the rubles won't be worth much after all of this is done....come to think of it, neither will the USD, Euro and the pound.
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what if....
http://www.ibtimes.com/what-if-texas-really-were-its-own-country-880112 (http://www.ibtimes.com/what-if-texas-really-were-its-own-country-880112)
and decided to 'go with Mexico'....
just 'what if.....'
Get the picture?
Hi BC,
If we were having a revolution in this country and we were weak/corrupt like Ukraine appears to be (and Mexico was vastly superior militarily) and a huge % of people in Texas wanted to secede, we might have to allow the people of Texas to go. I sure wouldn't expect/demand countries in Europe to race in to the rescue, spending their money/resources/men.
Fathertime!
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...and did again along the central/eastern bloc European countries shortly after WW - II until he died. I can only hope that JustMe was smart enough to run to the bank before all these crappola happened and exchange her grivnas to rubles, LOL. She'll be psyht out of luck if she didn't.
But then again, the rubles won't be worth much after all of this is done....come to think of it, neither will the USD, Euro and the pound.
GQ
Have been working with UA programmers for years... anyone with a sense of business in UA has lodged their banking in one of the emerging EU countries like Latvia or Estonia....
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...and did again along the central/eastern bloc European countries shortly after WW - II until he died. I can only hope that JustMe was smart enough to run to the bank before all these crappola happened and exchange her grivnas to rubles, LOL. She'll be psyht out of luck if she didn't.
But then again, the rubles won't be worth much after all of this is done....come to think of it, neither will the USD, Euro and the pound.
No, but the Yuan Renminbi will! :devil:
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Hi BC,
If we were having a revolution in this country and we were weak/corrupt like Ukraine appears to be (and Mexico was vastly superior militarily) and a huge % of people in Texas wanted to secede, we might have to allow the people of Texas to go. I sure wouldn't expect/demand countries in Europe to race in to the rescue, spending their money/resources/men.
Fathertime!
If I read correctly we agree more than disagree... that's progress!!
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GQ
Have been working with UA programmers for years... anyone with a sense of business in UA has lodged their banking in one of the emerging EU countries like Latvia or Estonia....
Hell BC. Are you kiddin' me? Both Estonia and Latvia are Eurozone members. The Euros will be worth as much as Saddam Dinars! That ain't too smart.
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If we were having a revolution in this country and we were weak/corrupt like Ukraine appears to be (and Mexico was vastly superior militarily) and a huge % of people in Texas wanted to secede, we might have to allow the people of Texas to go. I sure wouldn't expect/demand countries in Europe to race in to the rescue, spending their money/resources/men.
Texas did secede from the Federal Union.
This happened in 1861 and Texas quickly joined the CSA. The newly elected President of the Federal Union declared secession legally void, and the northern states invaded and blockaded the southern states to preserve the Union. Neither Mexico nor Russia came to the aid of the South, and the larger population and industrial superiority of the North prevailed.
Ironically, Texas and other southern states were more autonomous prior to the secession than now.
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Canada could hold a vote and secede from America but it would be a little silly to do so if they already viewed themselves as a separate nation.
What do you mean, seceding from the American continent :o? Wouldn't that require quite a lot of trench-digging on their part :D?
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more wisdom from the generalismo :rolleyes:
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What do you mean, seceding from the American continent :o? Wouldn't that require quite a lot of trench-digging on their part :D?
Sandro, we've always felt that some day the San Andreas fault is gonna cut loose here in California. The rest of North America will slide into the ocean and California will be left.
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Sandro, we've always felt that some day the San Andreas fault is gonna cut loose here in California. The rest of North America will slide into the ocean and California will be left.
Somehow, jone, I think you have that back to front. 8)
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Ethnocentrism, my friend.
Ethnocentrism!
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To be honest and I don't wish to insult or offend any US citizens on here.
I can't stand the fact that any time there is conflict the US has to stick their nose into it!
I am not political or don't know too much about politics however it seems to me that EVERY time there is a dispute the US have to get involved.
My girl is from Russia and she doesn't even like this situation in fact she hates that it has come to this...
Sorry if I offended I have heaps of US friends and don't wish to offend in any way.
Let these 2 countries sort it out themselves I think
daz
sorry mate iv gotta take the opposite view ,
while no one wants a war or any military conflict , for the world to have reasonable peace & order such actions as putin has done with crimea , right in the guts of europe has to be dealt with strongly imho
if not it will signal the start of more of the same from who knows where , im alarmed here of the bigger ramifications this could have if there is not a cohesive , forcefull response from the world police, , eu, un , nato etc americas role is tied into those entitys
daz , ask yourself this question ,
if indonesia or india , just decided to land into tasmanania or the NT in australia and occupy it with military, with the aim to anexxe it from australia , would you not wish those world bodys to come to australias, aid if a military conflict broke out ? &we asked them to help ??
currently as i see it , all these treaties and international laws are worthless unless we all help ukraine , for who knows when next it might be one of us ,
might sound implausible , but having been in crimea recently current situation seems pretty unbelievable to me know as well
australia is wide open to many aggressors should they choose to come here , western democracys need to keep the faith in such events as are happening to ukraine now , especially if we dont want an nuclear arms race to grow again ,
ukraine would not have this issue now if it had kept its nuclear arsenal intact , end of story
we in australia have little idea how dam lucky we are never to have had such military conflicts on our own soil ,
the people of ukraine deserve our help , in any form to get them on the road to a better life , free from corruption and with full transparent laws and gov etc
aggression will not go away by looking the other way , it must be faced and dealt with asap
SX
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What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?
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What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?
The ANZUS Treaty for a start - unlike Budapest, this one WAS signed off by all countries involved. :clapping:
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The ANZUS Treaty for a start - unlike Budapest, this one WAS signed off by all countries involved. :clapping:
, thing is , how would we/ANYBODY view the ANZUS treaty if other treatys are not honoured by signatorys ?
SX
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daz
sorry mate iv gotta take the opposite view ,
while no one wants a war or any military conflict , for the world to have reasonable peace & order such actions as putin has done with crimea , right in the guts of europe has to be dealt with strongly imho
if not it will signal the start of more of the same from who knows where , im alarmed here of the bigger ramifications this could have if there is not a cohesive , forcefull response from the world police, , eu, un , nato etc americas role is tied into those entitys
daz , ask yourself this question ,
if indonesia or india , just decided to land into tasmanania or the NT in australia and occupy it with military, with the aim to anexxe it from australia , would you not wish those world bodys to come to australias, aid if a military conflict broke out ? &we asked them to help ??
currently as i see it , all these treaties and international laws are worthless unless we all help ukraine , for who knows when next it might be one of us ,
might sound implausible , but having been in crimea recently current situation seems pretty unbelievable to me know as well
australia is wide open to many aggressors should they choose to come here , western democracys need to keep the faith in such events as are happening to ukraine now , especially if we dont want an nuclear arms race to grow again ,
ukraine would not have this issue now if it had kept its nuclear arsenal intact , end of story
we in australia have little idea how dam lucky we are never to have had such military conflicts on our own soil ,
the people of ukraine deserve our help , in any form to get them on the road to a better life , free from corruption and with full transparent laws and gov etc
aggression will not go away by looking the other way , it must be faced and dealt with asap
SX
Interesting questions SX,
I would say it isn't a fair comparison at all, if the point is why protect Australia and not Ukraine.
Without a doubt, even if ANZUS wasn't in place, if Australia was suddenly attacked/invaded by a country like India, I'd be all for doing something in a hurry and I believe most Americans would feel the same way. I do believe there are some circumstances where the US should get involved, but others where they should not. There are many reasons and factors for that. The conflicts we have entered recently have been bad choices and many, if not most of the American people are very unhappy about it. Our military is supposed to be for defensive purposes, not to go on the offense in response to everything we consider an 'injustice' in the world. We are approaching 18 Trillion in debt...we got some serious problems here coming up...
Russia is clearly not going to back down, not under these circumstances. I'm convinced plenty of the world's population supports them even if they don't say so. One of the reasons for this support is a dislike of the how the USA has behaved recently.
All that being said, maybe it would be wise for Australia to build up a reasonably sized military of it's own if they have concern...the USA can't be in the business of making everybody feel secure on our nickel.
[size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
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If anyone still harbors doubts of the wisdom and morality of fathertime's de facto but very philosophical appeasement consider the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmOh0MwnwxY
In it the speakers predict World War III breaking out in the Middle East and Asia (not in Ukraine or Russia).
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All that being said, maybe it would be wise for Australia to build up a reasonably sized military of it's own if they have concern[size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
id agree FT, especially if those democarcys who sign international ageements dont honour them into the future, , thus if little support is given to ukraien in this situation, it will imo open the door for many countrys to legitimatly review their defences and opt for the nuclear option , who could argue they should not do so ?
...the USA can't be in the business of making everybody feel secure on our nickel.
[size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
neither can australia or any other country , our economy is no so big we can afford to go to the middle east etc to support you guys either if it is not reciprocal ,
we do so in good faith to keep our international commitments and obligations we signed up for
to break that commitment would leave alot of neagativity ,
remember when NZ banned nuclear ships
?
SX
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What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?
uh.. WWII ? Japan's naval fleet... I hated world history in school, but even I recall that one.. Granted it was strategic for the US to have a naval presence there, but it certainly was not without benefits for Australians, like not having to learn Japanese which I gather is a pretty hard language to master.
Personally, I've always considered Australia and the US to be like two good friends with more in common than not.. an alliance I can actually point to with pride. Of course I don't speak for the US government but I'm pretty sure the majority of US citizens feel the same way. We love you guys.. sorry we don't say so often enough.. :(
and Fox news / Bill O'Reily??? really?? I haven't watched it but that is the crux and the head honcho of the disinformation machine in the US.. watch if you must, but VERIFY!!!!!
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dewed ,
Personally, I've always considered Australia and the US to be like two good friends with more in common than not.. an alliance I can actually point to with pride. Of course I don't speak for the US government but I'm pretty sure the majority of US citizens feel the same way. We love you guys.. sorry we don't say so often enough..
same here , it is why australia has always supported the US,
we might seem laid back or sometimes affront someones sense of patriotism :D :D,because by and large we are more low key usually , but we do have a deep seated sense of fair play and justice , when it counts we will do the right thing
SX
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aw shucks you made me blush dagnabit !
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Of course, you all know that I was teasing when I said that the US wouldn't support Australia. With the misinformation that is being disseminated throughout the internet, people need to hold on to things that are real. Friendship with Australia and mutual admiration is one thing that is real and will never go away. When the the 1st Marines landed in Melbourne after fighting in Guadalcanal, they were treated as the saviors of Australia. Many a good Marine was lost to the warm embraces of the Aussie women whose men were off fighting in Burma.
The friendship and love between Australia and the US has never been stronger. I cannot imagine the US not immediately coming to Australia's defense in the event of an emergency. Nor could we imagine the Aussies not doing the same in our time of need.
Perhaps that is why when we see Russians and Ukrainians in showdown mode, we shake our heads in disbelief. Like the US and Australia, Ukraine and Russia should be brothers. We all believe it to be inconceivable that people from any part of Ukraine would think that people from another part of Ukraine would wish them ill. It just isn't true.
I believe that the US should not be involved, simply because outsiders should never try and intervene in a family argument. But should there be violence and death promulgated by a husband on his wife, i.e., the stronger on the weaker, then it is time to defend the weaker, the abused.
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Nobody is frightened of Russia.
Not quite nobody. I am.
Each day I hope someone will kill Putin. LT won't even try. But thats what I hope. My wife and "everyone" in her city is in agreement. One man causes problems for all.
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What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?
uh.. WWII ? Japan's naval fleet... I hated world history in school, but even I recall that one..
One million American troops passed through Australia in preparation for combat campaigns and rest and recuperation afterwards. Meanwhile, many Australian men were away, fighting in North Africa and the Pacific theater and later Europe.
Given that the Australia population was only about 7 million then, the relatively large presence of American troops gave rise to the phrase, "Over sexed, over paid, and over here." :D
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uh.. WWII ? Japan's naval fleet... I hated world history in school, but even I recall that one..
"Over sexed, over paid, and over here." :D
Of course that was closer to your generation than mine Gator but, I believe that was a cry of the Brits in WWII? :D
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Of course that was closer to your generation than mine Gator but, I believe that was a cry of the Brits in WWII? :D
That's what I thought too.
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LT won't even try. But thats what I hope.
I really wish you didn't say this. First of all, I value my life especially now when I have people that are depending on me. Second, whoever kills Putin in an extrajudicial context face certain death and Putin will be martyred. Third, I have seen men die - evil men too. They are still human beings, still someone's brother, someone's Dad, someone's husband, someone's son. People are too casual about this stuff and it makes me sick. We should be preserving lives not taking them.
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I really wish you didn't say this. First of all, I value my life especially now when I have people that are depending on me. Second, whoever kills Putin in an extrajudicial context face certain death and Putin will be martyred. Third, I have seen men die - evil men too. They are still human beings, still someone's brother, someone's Dad, someone's husband, someone's son. People are too casual about this stuff and it makes me sick. We should be preserving lives not taking them.
Now you are a pacifist :shock:
You call everyone a coward for not wanting to stand up and go to war......and now this??? :cluebat:
Where is the koo-koo emotion?
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I don't have anything positive to contribute. Except that you may have misunderstood me. Anyway, its not worth clarifying. So I will ask you nicely to keep my name out of your mouth and we can keep it the same. Good luck with your family.
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LT,
I understand both of our emotions are high due to our where both of our spouses are from. I will do my best to be respectful and keep to the issues. My BIL, who is 45, was called into the army yesterday. Now I am not going to say that I know him well, but he has been nothing but nice to me. We even have skyped. He is always interested in seeing "guy" stuff. (truck,atvs,guns,tools etc)
They are getting ready for war.
I will give you a quote from what you said. Maybe I misunderstood? There is no need for me to convince my wife of anything.
The second thing you can do is convince the Russian spouses that Putin is an evil madman and that it is in their interest too to stop this man.
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Ok, it's late here I really should be asleep, but as I see it...
assassinate Putin, you have a remake of what started WWI
Do nothing, you have a remake of what started WWII
options?
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PS.. perhaps it's the sleep deprivation speaking, but I feel the need to point out I can publicly post the words "assassinate Putin" as a single sentence without fear of.. well anything.
Many do not have the luxury, and those that do, take it for granted. Those that don't assume I'll soon be dead or imprisoned
Good night and see you tomorrow
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PS.. perhaps it's the sleep deprivation speaking, but I feel the need to point out I can publicly post the words "assassinate Putin" as a single sentence without fear of.. well anything.
Many do not have the luxury, and those that do, take it for granted. Those that don't assume I'll soon be dead or imprisoned
Good night and see you tomorrow
And as you will see you will forget what you posted by tomorrow. As a moderator you will delete and edit speech and opinions contrary to what you write.
Power always goes to a persons head. Whether it be a President or school hall monitor. Eventually they become drunk with power and know better than all. Forum moderators are some of the worst drunkards. But the smart ones can handle their liquor.
This advice I give you with a handshake and pat on the back gesture of good luck.
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LOL. There's something seriously faulty in your logic.
Anyway, while not exactly the same but comparatively closer in context of constituency, think Puerto Rico and the US...
Egg xactly.
Except Ricans don't have the balls to tell the US fuck off!!!
Trust me, they'd be much, much better off by themselves. It sucks being a colony. :'(
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What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?
DUH, because they speak English, sort of.
And they have a ton of blond and blue eyed people.
What's the matter with you? Dense? ;D
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Interesting questions SX,
I would say it isn't a fair comparison at all, if the point is why protect Australia and not Ukraine.
Without a doubt, even if ANZUS wasn't in place, if Australia was suddenly attacked/invaded by a country like India, I'd be all for doing something in a hurry and I believe most Americans would feel the same way.
See?
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DUH, because they speak English, sort of.
And they have a ton of blond and blue eyed people.
What's the matter with you? Dense? ;D
(http://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQiglRVZSZo39pPiZjkEnWSo6hCGFIYBcp5OxA737dfCdchJg7X5Q)
That's me!
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If anyone still harbors doubts of the wisdom and morality of fathertime's de facto but very philosophical appeasement consider the following:
In it the speakers predict World War III breaking out in the Middle East and Asia (not in Ukraine or Russia).
I wish you would post some coherent and rational discourse.
Unless that was meant as a joke, of course.
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(http://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQiglRVZSZo39pPiZjkEnWSo6hCGFIYBcp5OxA737dfCdchJg7X5Q)
That's me!
Went well with my coffee. ;)
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Not quite nobody. I am.
Each day I hope someone will kill Putin. LT won't even try. But thats what I hope. My wife and "everyone" in her city is in agreement. One man causes problems for all.
Funny you say that. Many in Ukraine say that one bullet in Crimea will start WWIII. And one bullet in Moscow will bring peace.
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Egg xactly.
Except Ricans don't have the balls to tell the US fuck off!!!
Trust me, they'd be much, much better off by themselves. It sucks being a colony. :'(
I've always wondered about this, Muzh. Why is that? They have their own robust economy. Why do they keep rejecting being independent of the US and become an independent nation instead of being the 51st?
They have an opportunity Hawaii(ans) would love to get.
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...In it the speakers predict World War III breaking out in the Middle East and Asia (not in Ukraine or Russia).
I didn't watch the video but I would hedge a bet the speaker is a devout christian likely citing a page out of the bible where two major similar race banding together to fight the final battle against a force of a different race on the eve of Armageddon.
From the logical side:
Ukraine ought to be glad they just lost almost 1 million citizen and a swat of geography from their social dole chest, no? That European 15 billion loan should go a bit further now.
Have the ethnic Russians living elsewhere trade homes with ethnic Ukrainians living inside Crimea. Just like the time leading up to the break-up of the USSR.
Vladimir isn't messing around. He already drew the new Russian map which includes Crimea.
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I will give you a quote from what you said. Maybe I misunderstood? There is no need for me to convince my wife of anything.
It was a misunderstanding. It doesn't apply to you. My wife is Ukrainian too. And yes, her family is Bila Tserkov. Probably to time to have an evacuation plan in place. I know a guy in Lviv. PM for details.
I didn't watch the video but . . .
End of discussion. Have a nice day.
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I've always wondered about this, Muzh. Why is that? They have their own robust economy. Why do they keep rejecting being independent of the US and be an independent nation?
Robust economy?
BWA HA HA HA HA
Right now they have Junk Bond status and are a pile of shit below Detroit. Now, that's a lot of shit.
PR is at the mercy of the Jones Act (1920? I'll check) which means that any type of trade into the island has to be in ships MADE in the USA. Same for trade OUT. IF they are lucky to trade anything out that is not from a US mutlinational exploiting over-educated cheap labor. For example, an engineer with a pharma will start at $25K. No lie when I tell you that my stepmom's brother was on a waiting list for two years for him to get a residency gig with a hospital. The asshole didn't want to move to the US.
Not to mention that this Jones Act was designed to eliminate competition of agricultural products from the island. Think about this. They grow coffee which HAS to be processed in the US and then if they want to buy their own grown coffee, they have to buy it from the US. Nice.
PR could be competing for coffee, sugar cane, citrus and other tropical fruits like pinapple, bananas, etc. BUT, no representation in Congress has eliminated any competition. After all California, Florida, Hawaii and other assorted states who produce some of these products would be adversely affected by PR stuff.
It goes way deeper than this.
New York Times Puerto Rico Exodus (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/us/economy-and-crime-spur-new-puerto-rican-exodus.html?action=click&module=Search®ion=searchResults%230&version=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fquery.nytimes.com%2Fsearch%2Fsitesearch%2F%3Faction%3Dclick%26region%3DMasthead%26pgtype%3DHomepage%26module%3DSearchSubmit%26contentCollection%3DHomepage%26t%3Dqry834%23%2Fpuerto%2520rico%2520exodus&gwh=00009F03BD89CCD3F6BFBD34F9180F47&gwt=regi#0&version=&url=http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch/?action=click®ion=Masthead&pgtype=Homepage&module=SearchSubmit&contentCollection=Homepage&t=qry834)
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I didn't watch the video but I would hedge a bet the speaker is a devout christian likely citing a page out of the bible where two major similar race banding together to fight the final battle against a force of a different race on the eve of Armageddon.
LMFAO
Is there any other type of Armageddon? Mr. LT might disappear in a wisp of smoke. ;)
From the logical side:
Ukraine ought to be glad they just lost almost 1 million citizen and a swat of geography from their social dole chest, no? That European 15 billion loan should go a bit further now.
Have the ethnic Russians living elsewhere trade homes with ethnic Ukrainians living inside Crimea. Just like the time leading up to the break-up of the USSR.
Vladimir isn't messing around. He already drew the new Russian map which includes Crimea.
Absolutely. I'll even help them pack. ;D
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Talk about not drinking the Kool-Aid. What was the vote for independence last time? 5% for? Almost like the 4% who voted for the Russian party in the last Crimean election?
They just need a leader to come into their country and set them on the road to Che Guerva. Me thinks you have time on your hands coming up. Muzh Guerva? Che Muzh?
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Talk about not drinking the Kool-Aid. What was the vote for independence last time? 5% for? Almost like the 4% who voted for the Russian party in the last Crimean election?
They just need a leader to come into their country and set them on the road to Che Guerva. Me thinks you have time on your hands coming up. Muzh Guerva? Che Muzh?
Jone, I think you missed the qualifier I mentioned above.
Here it is again:
NO BALLS
There is nothing more infuriating than going to the island and hear these idiots claim how unique is to be Puertoricans and dance salsa. That the gringos will never understand what is to be Puertoricans blah, blah, blah. My face immediately turns red. This is when my wife pulls me away and douse my head with very cold water.
Reason #1 for them to maintain the colonial status quo: PR olympic team.
Reason #2 for them to maintain the colonial status quo: Compete in Miss Universe
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
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Robust economy?
BWA HA HA HA HA...
Maybe in another place and time. But most of what you relayed is actually the very same reason why I, like you, believe they'd be better off being an independent nation and be removed from any US regulations. I haven't been to PR but if it's anything like what Hawaii is capable of doing on its own (tourism & agricultural), is more than capable to be independent.
The transitional period would be a major pain in the booty, but...
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...End of discussion. Have a nice day.
LOL. I assure you it wasn't an attempt to have a discussion you. Especially not from the basis of a political rant from a commercial talking head.
I rather enjoy witnessing all the recent dramatic & emotional rantings from the lot. LOL. It's freakin' comical!
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well the only thing that can result from US-Russia war is that what happened to Britain and France after world war-2
, while US and Russia replaced Britain and France as the Super Powers after WW-2, now China & India might possibly
replace US and Russia as World Powers
well anyway as an Indian we are not implementing the sanctions imposed by US on Russia , as always the case is ,we are still neutral , its time for America to stop acting like the Big Brother
God forbid any war , the common man is the one who is going to suffer
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LOL. I assure you it wasn't an attempt to have a discussion you. Especially not from the basis of a political rant from a commercial talking head.
I rather enjoy witnessing all the recent dramatic & emotional rantings from the lot. LOL. It's freakin' comical!
You routinely insult people who disagree with you and you maintain this moral superiority.
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well the only thing that can result from US-Russia war is that what happened to Britain and France after world war-2
, while US and Russia replaced Britain and France as the Super Powers after WW-2, now China & India might possibly
replace US and Russia as World Powers
well anyway as an Indian we are not implementing the sanctions imposed by US on Russia , as always the case is ,we are still neutral , its time for America to stop acting like the Big Brother
God forbid any war , the common man is the one who is going to suffer
Heh, India shows the same neutrality as Belarus. The very cautious and suspicious one.
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well my friend , Non-Violence was the weapon with which my country's freedom fighters won Independence from Britain , it runs in the blood of every single true Indian
Belarus and India ,how can you compare the two ,when the factors for the decision to remain neutral is completely different , for instance ,look geographically ,Belarus is bound to be affected if trade ties are cut-off with Russia , while India the 4th largest economy of the world is affected the least bcoz we have good trade ties with countries all over the globe
well don't take it negatively , Russia and India have always had good ties for many many years ,Russia and India will always be friends , you know most people living in north India are orginaly from Russia ,believe its a fact
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Welcome to a nuance called 'Sarcasm', vig. ;D
Incidentally, Ukraine and Russia used to also be *friends* and look what happened.
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Welcome to a nuance called 'Sarcasm', vig. ;D
Incidentally, Ukraine and Russia used to also be *friends* and look what happened.
Call it what you want but it is beneath the dignity of the forum. The moderators encourage us to moderate ourselves. You would be wise to do. Some ideas and people are worthy of ridicule especially if the malefactor has committed some crime, immoral act or encouraged others to do so. Where have I done this? I just have a different perspective from you. I can't say what you have done or continue to do is classy. I would just ask you nicely that unless you can rightly accuse me of a crime or immoral act, that you cease the ridicule. If you cannot do that, then I suggest you stop addressing me entirely. Thank you.
in others news, Mendy's explanation of Putin's weak support at home
http://russianreport.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/putins-popularity-soars-at-home/
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well my dear friends ,i am not here to degrade anyone, i am making the stand of my country clear ,i believe in a healthy debate everyone must be heard ,we still support Russia , US , Ukraine and will always be so, my point is there should be no war between US and Russia as per the title of this topic , eye for an eye will only make us blind, think about the catastrophic effects it will have on the people on both the sides , why should millions of people suffer for the ego battle between Obama & Putin , that is all my point
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(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/omg-too-much_zpsd54858a8.gif)
Edit: Not directed at you Vig.
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why should millions of people suffer for the ego battle between Obama & Putin , that is all my point
Most people's goals is the same as yours, to save people's lives. That is why some of us think Obama should take a harder stance at stopping Putin now before things escalate beyond anybody's control with the cost of more lives.
Not everybody can be successful like Ghandi. Not every situation can be solved peacefully. I have great respect for Ghandi but I don't think if Obama and America starves themselves peacefully as a way to protest Putin's actions, he will feel sorry for us and change his ways.
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well my dear friends ,i am not here to degrade anyone, i am making the stand of my country clear ,i believe in a healthy debate everyone must be heard ,we still support Russia , US , Ukraine and will always be so, my point is there should be no war between US and Russia as per the title of this topic , eye for an eye will only make us blind, think about the catastrophic effects it will have on the people on both the sides , why should millions of people suffer for the ego battle between Obama & Putin , that is all my point
Actually I'm with you on this vig. I agree. Western media is a bit slanted if I dare say about this crisis so folks easily disregard what they're not 'reading' or 'hearing' about.
Putin in Crimea today is akin to Clinton in Kosovo nary 20 years ago. The US and 'most' EU members didn't have much trouble 'recognizing' Kosovo as an independent state when it was well in their geographical favor before and Russia was at its weakest state, but seem to exercise a bit of a double standard here when the land-grab shoe is on the other foot, no?
.
I won't be surprise there was an urgent need from Obama, due to the Syrian fiasco, to one-up Putin and go along with tempting fate and initiate their silly activities in Ukraine which prompted an 'expected' and understandable reaction from Putin.
Of course, like in B-Ball, the refs always call foul on the reactionary play.
I've said it before, it's all a political BS with people dying. Sadly, Ukraine got caught in a well-spunned western spider trap.
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I hear this moral equivalence all the time when I speak to Russians about Kosovo.
1. I didn't vote for Clinton. I don't think he was a good president or a good man.
2. If you really feel that way, then charge him in the Hague. Invite him to Russia and arrest him like the did Pinochet like they are trying to do with Bush and Kissinger.
The Russian people want war. Their economy sucks and is growing at less than 1% which means it is not growing at all. People who whine about US coverage are getting their news from RT which is obviously unbiased. :rolleyes:
War is evil and must be avoided. But if you can't avoid it, then you must be prepared to end it.
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Putin in Crimea today is akin to Clinton in Kosovo nary 20 years ago. The US and 'most' EU members didn't have much trouble 'recognizing' Kosovo as an independent state when it was well in their geographical favor before and Russia was at its weakest state, but seem to exercise a bit of a double standard here when the land-grab shoe is on the other foot, no?
LMAO
You should have seen the Soviet Russians 30 years prior to that when they were very strong and how the felt about Kososvo.
http://feldgrau.info/index.php/2010-09-02-14-48-28/8548-sovetskie-antiyugoslavskie-karikatury-1949-1951-godov (http://feldgrau.info/index.php/2010-09-02-14-48-28/8548-sovetskie-antiyugoslavskie-karikatury-1949-1951-godov)
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DUH, because they speak English, sort of.
And they have a ton of blond and blue eyed people.
What's the matter with you? Dense? ;D
Muzh
I think that is an unfair charge you are making. The claim being that because Australia is full of blonds we would care more. From what i saw Ukraine was also full of blonds. In addition the hypothetical SX gave, used India or Indonesia invading Australia, so that is what somebody would have to respond to, to stay on topic. If he had said Russia was invading Australia I would have given a similar response.
I've noticed that you often look at things through the lens of Race, even when it is not an important factor....I don't know why you decide to do this, but presumably you have your reasons.
Fathertime!
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LMAO
You should have seen the Soviet Russians Ukrainians 30 years prior to that when they were very strong and how the felt about Kososvo.
http://feldgrau.info/index.php/2010-09-02-14-48-28/8548-sovetskie-antiyugoslavskie-karikatury-1949-1951-godov (http://feldgrau.info/index.php/2010-09-02-14-48-28/8548-sovetskie-antiyugoslavskie-karikatury-1949-1951-godov)
Hah! 50 years ago? Wouldn't that also include Ukrainians? ;) Actually that would put us right smack into either Stalin, a Georgian, or maybe even Mr. Ukrainian himself, Nikita Kruschev, no?
LOL. These overlords are one and the same. It's just a question on what uniforms and flag they're flying under and at what time or what place in this world it is.
Everyone's hand is historically bloodied. Sure, some more so than others. But I honestly believe we, Americans, are hardly sitting in the saint aisle even now.
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Most people's goals is the same as yours, to save people's lives. That is why some of us think Obama should take a harder stance at stopping Putin now before things escalate beyond anybody's control with the cost of more lives.
Not everybody can be successful like Ghandi. Not every situation can be solved peacefully. I have great respect for Ghandi but I don't think if Obama and America starves themselves peacefully as a way to protest Putin's actions, he will feel sorry for us and change his ways.
Hi BillyB!
This is presuming that Russia is going to escalate things. My thought is these opportunities don't come along that often so I don't see any forthcoming escalation at all. Putin made his move and for the most part it is over IF there is no further provocation. If we were to presume that was the going to be the case, then wouldn't it make sense to leave it alone, as that would save the most lives, as compared to going headlong into a war/proxy war with Russia? I'm convinced that if we involve ourselves, Russia will dig it's heals in and fight it out...the human loss in that case would be ghastly. Since they consider Crimea theirs now and if we take a battle to 'their' soil...well then who is to say they don't lob some shots into the states?...all I would see is losers...no winners if that happens.
Fathertime!
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This is presuming that Russia is going to escalate things.
Those who believe Putin is going to stop are presuming things too. Crimea is over. If Putin were done, he'd probably take a break and go on vacation. Instead, Hitler Putin is making daily speeches to his public that the West are hypocrites and Russia may change it's stance on Iran. He's making hate speeches, making threats that could make the world a dangerous place for the West, and firing up his citizens to gain support. Why is he doing that now if this is supposed to be over?
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A recent news is developing at press time that Moscow had grown weary and concern about the safety and well-being of Russians living in America. Due to the recent crisis happening in Ukraine, the Russian President expressed concerns about their state and welfare that he felt may suffer as a result of western society's uninformed and overly-dramatic and emotionally-misguided reactions and make the lives of ordinary Russians within the US border and populace less than comforting.
As a result, he immediately lobbied for the Kremlin Council to approve mobilizing a large force to a strategically predetermined US city to take-over and act as a refuge area available for all Russian nationals to seek shelter in.
Upon hearing this new development, US Foreign Affair expert and Vice-President Joe Biden took time off from selling Obamacare Insurance at a nearby university campus and excitedly screamed, "Annex Detroit! You may take Detroit Komrade!"
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well my friend , Non-Violence was the weapon with which my country's freedom fighters won Independence from Britain , it runs in the blood of every single true Indian
Non-violence towards the British, yes, even though the Brits slaughtered Indians. We all know Gandhi and admire him.
OTOH, partitioning pitted Indian vs. Indian, displaced 15 million Indians from their homes, and killed anywhere from 200,000 to one million. Not exactly non-violent.
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Those who believe Putin is going to stop are presuming things too. Crimea is over. If Putin were done, he'd probably take a break and go on vacation. Instead, Hitler Putin is making daily speeches to his public that the West are hypocrites and Russia may change it's stance on Iran. He's making hate speeches, making threats that could make the world a dangerous place for the West, and firing up his citizens to gain support. Why is he doing that now if this is supposed to be over?
Yes we are both presuming then.
I'd like to address your logic for a moment. You say Putin is making daily speeches to the public that we are hypocrites, if he is then he is telling the truth. You also said he is making 'hate' speeches, those are your words characterizing his speeches. Can you show me the text of one of these 'hate speeches'? I'd like to see if I'd agree with you regarding if they are hate speeches.
Why is he making speeches? Well I think it is a big deal in Russia what he has done. They have 10's of 1000's of troops on the ground. He needs to make speeches. Our politicians are also making speeches full of threats, so doesn't that make it a dangerous place for the East?
Fathertime!
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... 'hate' speeches...
Would you consider as 'hate' speeches those speeches that state your country is not a state but a land that belongs to Russia or those that state that your country will become a target of russians nuclear missiles if joins NATO?
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Would you consider as 'hate' speeches those speeches that state your country is not a state but a land that belongs to Russia or those that state that your country will become a target of russians nuclear missiles if joins NATO?
That isn't what he said, MissA. His reference was solely Crimea, and no, it isn't a state. It's an Autonomous Republic that can choose its own destiny at any given time through referendum. They are free to choose whose dominion they fall under, and in this case they chose Russia instead of Ukraine largely due to the chaos in Kiev.
Hell, one of these days Puerto Rico may elect to be back in Spain's dominion instead of the US, if so, it doesn't make it illegal or wrong for them to do so.
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Would you consider as 'hate' speeches those speeches that state your country is not a state but a land that belongs to Russia or those that state that your country will become a target of russians nuclear missiles if joins NATO?
1. I would need to see the speech in context to understand better what he was saying.
2. GQBlues has written that he didn't even say it the way you are now characterizing it.
3. If you are able to present the context of the 'hate speech', that would help. I'd really like to see what you guys are referencing as hate speeches by Putin.
Thanks,
Fathertime!
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GQ, I referenced to Ukraine because Putin never wanted just Crimea and never was hiding that either.
FT, something along the lines of "You don't understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us." Context: Ukraine is little Russia.
P.S. I have no intentions to write about history of about one and a half millennium to explain what Putin believes and why he is delusional.
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. In addition the hypothetical SX gave, used India or Indonesia invading Australia, so that is what somebody would have to respond to, to stay on topic. If he had said Russia was invading Australia I would have given a similar response.
Fathertime!
FT,
my hypothetical question was merely to point out to daz , how we would feel/respond if a larger populated near neighbouring country decided it wanted a starting point within australia for occupation & annexation ,
on my part there was no race /slur intended, hopefully none was given to anybody,
my point was to use alocal example of how any treatys/international law would be viewed in the aftermath of crimea if substantial action is not shown to russia ,
to not care &let them sort it out themselves will in the future invite the following
1 all countrys will review defence spending , with an aim to more arms proliferation across the globe, including nukes,
2 all countrys complete reluctance to not only sign agreements, but to honour them
3 many of the worlds countrys will view argression on a near valuable neighbour possibly very differently
regardless of ''friendliness '' to each other
4 many countrys with internal ethinic issues may now have to deal with independence issues from within , including russia , as ethnic minoritys view this ''legal annexation of crimea '' within the accepted methods of achieving their aim
lots of other outcomes, but the ripple effect will last for along long time , even if putin stops at crimea
SX
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3. If you are able to present the context of the 'hate speech', that would help. I'd really like to see what you guys are referencing as hate speeches by Putin.
fathertime: I think you will find that missAmeno is in fact a female. I'm rarely wrong on such matters ...
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Dr. Vinny to the rescue!
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Dr. Vinny to the rescue!
Well I mean …
Its all very well waffling on about war between the USA and Russia (which aint gonna happen) but if we’re going to start referring to all sexes as ‘guys’ then it wont be long before the big Chief in the sky brings the curtain down on all of us. This nonsense, together with selfies, must be stopped immediately (IMO).
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fathertime: I think you will find that missAmeno is in fact a female. I'm rarely wrong on such matters ...
Ha! you got me there.
GQ, I referenced to Ukraine because Putin never wanted just Crimea and never was hiding that either.
FT, something along the lines of "You don't understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us." Context: Ukraine is little Russia.
P.S. I have no intentions to write about history of about one and a half millennium to explain what Putin believes and why he is delusional.
Well From MissAmeno, To this point you have NOT backed up the earlier assertion that Putin was giving "Hate Speeches". I imagine BillyB will be able to though. I genuinely wanted to see what it is that had people saying he was 'crazy' and had 'hate speeches'...to this point he has always appeared rational to me...but I'm sure others have seen things that I haven't.
Fathertime!
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Ha! you got me there.
Well From MissAmeno, To this point you have NOT backed up the earlier assertion that Putin was giving "Hate Speeches". I imagine BillyB will be able to though. I genuinely wanted to see what it is that had people saying he was 'crazy' and had 'hate speeches'...to this point he has always appeared rational to me...but I'm sure others have seen things that I haven't.
Fathertime!
Eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889
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You say Putin is making daily speeches to the public that we are hypocrites, if he is then he is telling the truth.
Truth is not the issue here. The issue is he's making these speeches when he didn't do so in the past. The facts and truths were always there to talk about in the past so why is Putin behaving differently now? I can tell you something bad about every one of my family members, friends, enemies, and people I work around. I can tell you these are truths. It's easy for one to believe these truths because everybody and every nation has faults. It's not a goal of mine to go around and tell these truths to get people angry at, put down, and laugh at the people I know. Now if I had an agenda to have you guys hate those people, I would. Most everybody have, at one or more times, used words, lies or truths, to gain support from others for personal reasons. Let's say a kid in the playground wants to beat up another kid. Before getting in a fight, he goes around to other friends and talks bad about the kid he wants to beat up. He's trying to get approval and possibly physical support to help beat up his enemy.
You also said he is making 'hate' speeches, those are your words characterizing his speeches. Can you show me the text of one of these 'hate speeches'? I'd like to see if I'd agree with you regarding if they are hate speeches.
You and I get along fine on this forum. At one time Obama and Putin got along fine, at least that is what we've seen on cameras. But lets say in public, I now begin to call you a fanatic, hypocrite, and won't support you on what you think is threatening your life, say Iran. To sum it up, I just told you that we're not friends anymore, I will act as your enemy and I don't care if you die. My words can be construed as hateful and even harmful. By claiming it's true, does it give me any more right to say these things? Certainly our friendship will be over. Putin's friendship, if there ever was one, is over with the West. He wants to gain the support for his actions from his people so he must say something bad about those he's about to hurt.
Putin's talk is working. There are plenty of Russian supporters, some are here, that think Ukraine and the West deserves what it got and will support what is coming, death included.
I won't criticize your position that America should stay out of everybody's business. I won't criticize America or Russia for getting in everybody's business. We have friends in every country and so does Russia. I respect the fact strong nations take care of their friends. With great power comes great responsibility but, we have differences and somebody is going to get their way in the end. If I had the choice in picking Russia or America in getting their way and be top dog, I'd choose America. Most will say the world will be a better place with America on top and some will say it's the lessor of two evils. Either way most would want America on top.
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Ha! you got me there.
He didn't get you exactly. When you referred to MissAmeno and I as "guys", you used the word correctly. "Guys" is a gender neutral word that refers to a group of people who doesn't have to be all males. BUT, if you thought MISSAmeno was a male, you fooled yourself. :D
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Truth is not the issue here. The issue is he's making these speeches when he didn't do so in the past. The facts and truths were always there to talk about in the past so why is Putin behaving differently now? I can tell you something bad about every one of my family members, friends, enemies, and people I work around. I can tell you these are truths. It's easy for one to believe these truths because everybody and every nation has faults. It's not a goal of mine to go around and tell these truths to get people angry at, put down, and laugh at the people I know. Now if I had an agenda to have you guys hate those people, I would. Most everybody have, at one or more times, used words, lies or truths, to gain support from others for personal reasons. Let's say a kid in the playground wants to beat up another kid. Before getting in a fight, he goes around to other friends and talks bad about the kid he wants to beat up. He's trying to get approval and possibly physical support to help beat up his enemy.
You and I get along fine on this forum. At one time Obama and Putin got along fine, at least that is what we've seen on cameras. But lets say in public, I now begin to call you a fanatic, hypocrite, and won't support you on what you think is threatening your life, say Iran. To sum it up, I just told you that we're not friends anymore, I will act as your enemy and I don't care if you die. My words can be construed as hateful and even harmful. By claiming it's true, does it give me any more right to say these things? Certainly our friendship will be over. Putin's friendship, if there ever was one, is over with the West. He wants to gain the support for his actions from his people so he must say something bad about those he's about to hurt.
Putin's talk is working. There are plenty of Russian supporters, some are here, that think Ukraine and the West deserves what it got and will support what is coming, death included.
I won't criticize your position that America should stay out of everybody's business. I won't criticize America or Russia for getting in everybody's business. We have friends in every country and so does Russia. I respect the fact strong nations take care of their friends. With great power comes great responsibility but, we have differences and somebody is going to get their way in the end. If I had the choice in picking Russia or America in getting their way and be top dog, I'd choose America. Most will say the world will be a better place with America on top and some will say it's the lessor of two evils. Either way most would want America on top.
Hey Billyb! Damn right we get along fine...I like your style and way you argue...BUT...In this case you (among others) did say he is making hate speeches and threats publicly....I'm not reading that...the opinion you gave has been said so often that it is just accepted...and I'm not seeing the hard evidence of 'craziness or hate', but I might if somebody gave me either a transcript or the public speech where he was exuding hate. I'm open to the POSSIBILITY but the case has not been made.
That recent speech GQblues cited was extremely level-headed IMO. Perhaps people are getting caught up in the endless western propaganda and labeling Putin that they are not actually listening to what he has said? That would be ironic, because that is exactly the accusation many make of people that are giving their interpretation of the Russian position.
What we do know is that Russia has taken Crimea and they aren't giving it up without a big fight. Are we willing to fight over a small part of Crimea that means a lot to Russia and very little to us?
Fathertime!
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I'm not seeing the hard evidence of 'craziness or hate',
I've never been one to say Putin is crazy. He's smart. He'll always be one step ahead of Obama and a few steps ahead of he average Joe.
That recent speech GQblues cited was extremely level-headed IMO.
Putin's speech was during a time of celebration. He's not going to hate talk 100% of the time.
I'm not seeing the hard evidence of 'craziness or hate', but I might if somebody gave me either a transcript or the public speech where he was exuding hate. I'm open to the POSSIBILITY but the case has not been made.
Putin doesn't like us. Can we agree on that?
Are we willing to fight over a small part of Crimea that means a lot to Russia and very little to us?
If this was only about Crimea, no, we shouldn't start a war over that but we should've park our troops in there to join Russia in protecting Russian citizens from the fanatics. Let them expose themselves and decide if they want to fight a war over that piece of land. Crimea is one piece to a larger puzzle. Putin desires to have more than Crimea. Anybody not believe that? Let's hope Putin's desires and actions are two different things.
Fathertime, you think this will end at Crimea. A few years ago I thought like you and thought it would end at Georgia after Russia invaded them. What more could they want? The West's response to the invasion of Georgia was weak. Putin understood that. The West's response to Crimea was weak. Putin understood that. Rinse and repeat. Putin has and will continue to exploit weakness. This is the reputation he's earning.
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(http://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQiglRVZSZo39pPiZjkEnWSo6hCGFIYBcp5OxA737dfCdchJg7X5Q)
That's me!
....the state of American politically correct public school education....
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He didn't get you exactly. When you referred to MissAmeno and I as "guys", you used the word correctly. "Guys" is a gender neutral word that refers to a group of people who doesn't have to be all males. BUT, if you thought MISSAmeno was a male, you fooled yourself. :D
No BillyB you are wrong. A guy is a man, period. Enough of the bastardisation of language please, next you'll be telling us that a cow is a bull! >:(
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And as you will see you will forget what you posted by tomorrow. As a moderator you will delete and edit speech and opinions contrary to what you write.
Power always goes to a persons head. Whether it be a President or school hall monitor. Eventually they become drunk with power and know better than all. Forum moderators are some of the worst drunkards. But the smart ones can handle their liquor.
This advice I give you with a handshake and pat on the back gesture of good luck.
I don't generally edit posts.. I think maybe 2 or 3 in the roughly .. gee, what's been, 7-8 years I've been involved with keeping the web servers happy?.. Deleted and banned.. now that likely numbers in the thousands.
If you truly feel your own posts are being edited without justification PM me the next time this happens.
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Now arguing about calling a mixed gender group "guys" which is perfectly acceptable where I'm from by the way.
Perhaps it should not be so important to you to impose your vocabulary standards and instead actually stay on topic?
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wonder what the 6th fleet would look like in the Black Sea?
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Now arguing about calling a mixed gender group "guys" which is perfectly acceptable where I'm from by the way.
It will especially be so in Obama's restructured American military:
http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/j-matt-barber/tranny-time-us-military-becoming-global-joke
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Muzh
I think that is an unfair charge you are making. The claim being that because Australia is full of blonds we would care more. From what i saw Ukraine was also full of blonds. In addition the hypothetical SX gave, used India or Indonesia invading Australia, so that is what somebody would have to respond to, to stay on topic. If he had said Russia was invading Australia I would have given a similar response.
I've noticed that you often look at things through the lens of Race, even when it is not an important factor....I don't know why you decide to do this, but presumably you have your reasons.
Fathertime!
It was the hair, wasn't it? Sorry. I should be more sensitive.
Here's what Russians say a lot.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/noodlesontheears_zps7f83f36d.jpg)
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Hah! 50 years ago? Wouldn't that also include Ukrainians? ;) Actually that would put us right smack into either Stalin, a Georgian, or maybe even Mr. Ukrainian himself, Nikita Kruschev, no?
Why is it that people keep making the same mistake?
Nikita was born in Russia. Kursk Oblast.
However, you are in good company with Dr. Kissing her. ;D He made the same boo boo.
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Hi BillyB!
This is presuming that Russia is going to escalate things. My thought is these opportunities don't come along that often so I don't see any forthcoming escalation at all.
FT, in all seriousness I'd be careful believing that. Hell, I was screaming atop of my lungs to whomever wanted to listen that Putin was NOT going to invade Crimea. I was convinced that would never happen. So did many others.
That was one hell of a bracket buster.
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That isn't what he said, MissA. His reference was solely Crimea, and no, it isn't a state. It's an Autonomous Republic that can choose its own destiny at any given time through referendum. They are free to choose whose dominion they fall under, and in this case they chose Russia instead of Ukraine largely due to the chaos in Kiev.
Hell, one of these days Puerto Rico may elect to be back in Spain's dominion instead of the US, if so, it doesn't make it illegal or wrong for them to do so.
Hell, you'd be surprised how many people in the island still refer to Spain as the Motherland. I tell you, they are a lost cause.
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Why is it that people keep making the same mistake?
Nikita was born in Russia. Kursk Oblast.
However, you are in good company with Dr. Kissing her. ;D He made the same boo boo.
<--- Calendar marked: GQ made a boo-boo! :P
Is it true that Nikita is the only Soviet leader to be deprived of being buried alongside his peers?
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No BillyB you are wrong. A guy is a man, period.
Don't blame me, I didn't write the dictionary.
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<--- Calendar marked: GQ made a boo-boo! :P
Is it true that Nikita is the only Soviet leader to be deprived of being buried alongside his peers?
PBS (http://www.pbs.org/redfiles/bios/all_bio_nikita_khrushchev.htm) says that is true
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Quote from: GQBlues on Yesterday at 05:41:52 PM
. . . Mr. Ukrainian himself, Nikita Kruschev, no?
Why is it that people keep making the same mistake? Nikita was born in Russia. Kursk Oblast. However, you are in good company with Dr. Kissing her. ;D He made the same boo boo.
This can get a little murky. Do we categorize a person by where they were born, or where they spent the most time, etc.
For instance, the above mentioned Henry. He was born in Germany.
When the world refers to him, do they say Kissinger the German?
Yes, Khrushchev was born in what is now Russia. But he spent all of his early working years in Ukraine (where his father worked and the rest of the family moved to) and rose through the communist hierarchy in Ukraine. Spent some years shuttling back and forth between Kiev and Moscow until finally making his final moves in Moscow.
= = = = = = =
Khrushchev was born on April 15, 1894,[1] in Kalinovka,[2] a village in what is now Russia's Kursk Oblast, near the present Ukrainian border.[3] His parents, Sergei Khrushchev and Ksenia Khrushcheva, were poor peasants of Russian[3][4] origin, and had a daughter two years Nikita's junior, Irina.[1] Sergei Khrushchev was employed in a number of positions in the Donbas area of far eastern Ukraine, working as a railwayman, as a miner, and laboring in a brick factory. Wages were much higher in the Donbas than in the Kursk region, and Sergei Khrushchev generally left his family in Kalinovka, returning there when he had enough money.[5]
The above and much more in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev
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For instance, the above mentioned Henry. He was born in Germany.
When the world refers to him, do they say Kissinger the German?
No, but he was very quick in correcting people he was not Mr. Kissinger but DR. Kissinger.
To me it didn't matter. He was always the lovable Dr. Strangelove.
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This question keeps coming up a to why Putin is doing what he is--why continue to pour military equipment into the Crimea when it is clearly not needed for the invasion that has taken place.This article certainly covers some ground -it is translated version -so apologies for the jumble--original link is there in Ukrainian.
Why Putin as necessary Ukraine?
Few people know, but it seems that Putin is seriously preparing for World War III. At this point, the extent and nature of orders for military-industrial complex.
It was found that without Ukraine, Russia will not be able to exercise their renovation, scheduled for 2012-2020, and to which allocated 20 trillion rubles.
Design Bureau of MIC is overworked and did not have time to do what orders the Ministry of Defence.
Why is Ukraine so important in this regard? But why!
Russia will not fly?
Plant "Motor Sich" produces almost all engines for Russian helicopters: Mi-8, Mi-171, Mi-24, Mi-35, Mi-26, Mi-28, Ka-27, Ka-29, Ka-32, Ka 50, Ka-52 ... Russia itself can make in a year on the strength of 50, and by 2020 they need 3000 engine (2 on each helicopter and 1 spare)
Plant "Motor Sich" produces the same engines almost all civil airplanes of: IL-18, IL-38, AN-8, AN-12, AN-24, AN-26, AN-30, AN-32, AN- 72, AN-74, AN-124, AN-140, AN-148, Be-12, Be-200, Yak-40, Yak-42
And the Russian Air Force vested interest in military transport aircraft Kiev "Antonov". Of particular interest to the military - to the common mass production of An-70 and An-124 Ruslan. IL -76 can not even close this niche and in no analogues produce.
Kyiv concern "Art" produces missiles "air-air" medium-range R-27 (EF1, P1, ET1, T1) for the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-33, Su-34, Su-35. Currently "Art" - the only post-Soviet space rocket manufacturer of this class of machines.
Russia will not float?
Another area where you can do without Ukraine, but it is extremely difficult and expensive to own - military shipbuilding. In trite marked shortage of construction jobs. And in Ukraine, there are three shipyards in Nikolaev alone!
With regard to building aircraft carriers, it is still problematic - requires a huge investment. The greatest advantage Ukrainian to Russian shipbuilders - the ability to build large vessels with deadweight of 180 tonnes
It is also located in Nikolaev "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" - the biggest in the CIS developer and manufacturer of marine gas turbine engines (GTE) for naval ships. Motors of "Dawn" - "Mashproekt" equipped with many ships of the Russian Navy (including built frigates of project 22350, frigate project 11356R / M, the projected long-term destroyers of project 21956). In the production of gas turbines to establish and failed
Nuclear weapons say?
Another area of Russian-Ukrainian cooperation - cooperation in the maintenance of intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) of the old generation (Soviet-made), still form the basis of missile and nuclear power in Russia. In particular, the RS-20 (also known as RS-36M, and according to NATO classification - SS-18 "Satan") developed in Dnepropetrovsk CB "South" and was held at the "Pivdenmash" - experts "South" and "Pivdenmash" and still carry guarantee supervision and analysis of the technical state of Russian missiles, participating in the work to extend their lifespan. Spare parts for the older generation ICBM also delivers "Pivdenmash".
And it is no secret that Russia's nuclear rearmament program "slightly" sags missiles in mines age, can not continue indefinitely lifetime "Satan" and solid MS-24 "Jars" and especially "Topol-M" of the same "Satan" replacement no - they are fundamentally inferior to his predecessor in power delivery and maximum range of "goods." With missiles for submarines and did things go no matter - the same "Bulava", as we know, does not fly, and new submarine virtually unarmed. And difficult to understand how the implementation of a new heavy ICBM Russia can do without Ukrainian SDO "South" and VO "Pivdenmash."
http://pavlozayets.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/blog-post_7245.html
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Why hasn't he invaded already? Time is not on his side.
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Stalin certainly considered Nikita K to be Ukrainian, even joking around and calling him "Mikita" in reference to the Ukrainian pronunciation of his name.
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Why hasn't he invaded already? Time is not on his side.
Interesting question I think. It may be the provocateur program has run out of steam-the pro-Rus demos are getting relatively few people now and nothing like the coverage. As Ukrainians have got up to steam on what was going on and how-- they have closed the border to the "tourists" crossing with an agenda, they worked out the methodology etc. EG buses being used to move these people around were identified and tracked- and eventually taken out of the pro-Rus system. All that has taken the immediacy out of the potential for Putin's justification to invade.
In Ukraine itself--Putin's actions have served to unify the country like never before -- the intent of people to control their own destiny is now very strong.
Putin was hoping to create chaos in Ukraine-now he is attempting economic war by not allowing Ukrainian products across the border. Anything he can do to fuel dissatisfaction in Ukraine is being done.All that is designed to cause as much disruption as possible.
The election itself is now a pivotal time-- if Ukraine can get there without further invasion-then Putins chance will be gone-probably forever. So it will be critical now for Ukraine to not provoke or give any reason to Putin. This goes a long way to explain the passive behaviour of Ukrainian military trapped on the Crimea.
As a final point-- the fact that so many Ukrainians have made it clear that they will fight-- Putin is scared-- scared of the Russians being inadequate,being shown up and made look ridiculous-- again.The fact is Russia would be humiliated if Ukraine gets help from the west- and that would spell the end of Putin himself and all the craziness of his ambitions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVkJScVhDDo
Ukrainians are divided almost equally on the issue of military conflict. inpress.ua Ukrainians shared equally in the event of armed conflict with Russia Only every tenth Ukrainian categorically will not participate in hostilities under any circumstances. Yes Ukrainian answered the question: "Are you willing to personally take part in the fighting against Russia in the event of an invasion of Russian troops on the territory of Ukraine?". The survey was conducted specifically for the marathon TSN. Not ready to defend Ukraine - one in five in the west, one in four of the center and north. In the south and east is not ready to fight, almost half of the respondents. And in Crimea Ukraine can count on one in ten who are willing to resist Russian forces. Will take up arms without hesitation 19% excluding the Ukrainian Crimea and 18% of the Crimea. Rather ready to fight - 29% "continental" Ukrainian "and 27% - given the Crimeans. Rather ready, but hope for a peaceful resolution of the issue - 14% without the Crimea (15% of the Crimea), and not ready to fight - 19% and 20 %, respectively. yet 16% do not have the opportunity to participate in the fighting over health., and only 3% were undecided.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/polovina-ukrayinciv-gotova-vzyati-v-ruki-zbroyu-u-razi-rosiyskogo-vtorgnennya-opituvannya-341276.html
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Typical Soviet military doctrine: demoralization, crisis & purge.
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Why hasn't he invaded already? Time is not on his side.
Putin is using his time wisely as he sees fit. As long as he is holding the leash of his mad dog, Iran, he has all the time in the world. He has agents in East Ukraine talking to pro-Russia politicians right now. Putin prefers to take over Ukraine by way of vote until he learns he can't and then he'll decide if he has to use alternative methods.
One would think it's over after Crimea and Putin would stay quiet yet he's running his mouth more than ever saying America is a hypocrite, started illegal wars, and trying to dictate to everyone how to live their lives. It's working. Putin's approval rating has gone up and hatred of America is at an all time high. Krimster, in another thread, said it's a dangerous time for Americans in Crimea and he would be dead by now if he were still living there. I read a journalist say his friends in Moscow have never see so much propaganda as they've seen now. Putin is using his time to generate support for his next move.
Sanctions isn't going to stop Putin. Even if Obama sanctioned Putin himself and Putin took a billion dollar hit in the wallet, Putin just acquired a piece of land the size of the state of Massachusetts and all it's inhabitants. Putin got a good deal.
Sanctions will definitely hurt the people of Russia though and it will have it's desired effect of getting the Russian citizens angry but not angry at Putin, they'll be angry at us. After WWI, Germany was punished severely economically and instead taming them, the citizens got angry, elected guys like Hitler and supported his actions.
Russia is offering more money and pensions for men to join the military. Their military will grow. Many young men needing work in a bad economy may think this is a good deal but if the Russian military is used in a war soon, it would be hard for Putin to pay them when they're laying in a grave.
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Hmmm.
I disagree. When you chop off 1,000,000 pro-Russian voters (Crimea) and piss off the rest of the country, you will have a very hard time getting pro-Russians elected. Every Russian national that I have talked to from the Dneiper to the Russian border has told me the exact same thing. "We don't want the Russians in our country."
Quite honestly, there are no appeasers left. Ukraine is left in a very Nationalistic mood. Ukrainians, all of them but a few, do NOT like Russia right now. I wonder why?
The only way for Ukraine to flip Putin the finger is at the ballot box. As much as it happened in Sevastopol, it will happen in Kharkiv, Donetsk, Dnepropetrovsk, Odessa and the rest of Ukraine. Except the banners will no longer be White, Blue and Red. They will be the color of a Blue Sky on a field of Wheat.
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When you chop off 1,000,000 pro-Russian voters (Crimea) and piss off the rest of the country, you will have a very hard time getting pro-Russians elected.
It's not about he who cast the votes, it's about he who counts the votes that matters in Ukraine today and it was no different in the past when getting pro-Russian politicians, such as Yanukovych, elected. If voting happens in other parts of Ukraine, Russia will be there, just as they were in Crimea, to make sure the ballots get counted fairly.
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It's not about he who cast the votes, it's about he who counts the votes that matters in Ukraine today and it was no different in the past when getting pro-Russian politicians, such as Yanukovych, elected. If voting happens in other parts of Ukraine, Russia will be there, just as they were in Crimea, to make sure the ballots get counted fairly.
Billy--first up you are totally out of touch and not getting the mood of Ukraine right now-did you even read the posts I made above? More than half are willing to FIGHT Russia-let alone vote against them and their inteference in Ukraine.
The performance of the new government and the NEW attitude is going to see a free and fair election conducted--most probably with transparency like never before.
Seriously-to you and others that are stuck in previous era's-- learn about Maidan and what it now represents to Ukrainian people- they sacrificed to join the democratic world--not go backwards to a dark age.
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More than half are willing to FIGHT Russia-let alone vote against them and their inteference in Ukraine.
I've read what you've read but action is stronger than words. The majority of Ukrainians wanted to have Ukraine, in it's entirety, align with the West. Between the majority of Ukrainians and Putin, Putin so far is getting his way.
The performance of the new government and the NEW attitude is going to see a free and fair election conducted--most probably with transparency like never before.
The new Ukrainian government said weeks ago they weren't going to let Crimea go. Another case of words instead of action.
Seriously-to you and others that are stuck in previous era's-- learn about Maidan and what it now represents to Ukrainian people- they sacrificed to join the democratic world--not go backwards to a dark age.
The events at Maidan got guys like Yanukovych to back off but it won't affect guys like Putin. Putin has the backing of his military, something Yanukovych didn't have. The illegal events at Maiden, as Russia calls it, have fired up Putin and his citizens. Tantrums happen when people stops befriending others.
My wife has been reading a lot of patriotic articles lately and watching the Ukrainian news, just like you. She told me Ukrainians are willing to die for their country if Russia continues. She told me Ukrainians are proud and strong. I told her the goal should be getting the enemy to die for their country but without the West's commitment for military assistance, Ukraine doesn't stand a chance against Russia.
You've been watching Russian news lately? You can find some on Youtube. Putin has been giving passionate speeches on how Russians and Ukrainians are one and the same and that the city of Kiev is part of Mother Russia's rich history. There were Russians crying during these speeches.
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Billy--first up you are totally out of touch and not getting the mood of Ukraine right now-did you even read the posts I made above? More than half are willing to FIGHT Russia-let alone vote against them and their inteference in Ukraine.
The performance of the new government and the NEW attitude is going to see a free and fair election conducted--most probably with transparency like never before.
Seriously-to you and others that are stuck in previous era's-- learn about Maidan and what it now represents to Ukrainian people- they sacrificed to join the democratic world--not go backwards to a dark age.
Kool aid comes in many different flavors. It's obvious you have a favorite. I'm curious about what you think will happen to free press in the NEW Ukraine. According to the recent actions of deputy head of Ukraine’s committee on freedom of speech, the aim is to suppress. Check this out:
http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/19/ukranian-tv-boss-assaulted-and-forced-to-resign-by-far-right-svoboda-mps/
It has been said here before, the members of Rada didn't change after Yanukovich's ouster. The NEW Ukrainian government is the same as it was before. The corruption, the intimidation isn't going anywhere. If I were a betting man, I would wager that things aren't going to change all that much in the NEW Ukraine. Lies, deceit, and corruption will always be a part of Ukrainian politics.
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Nah, look how much Chicago has changed for the better!
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Kool aid comes in many different flavors. It's obvious you have a favorite. I'm curious about what you think will happen to free press in the NEW Ukraine. According to the recent actions of deputy head of Ukraine’s committee on freedom of speech, the aim is to suppress. Check this out:
http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/19/ukranian-tv-boss-assaulted-and-forced-to-resign-by-far-right-svoboda-mps/
It has been said here before, the members of Rada didn't change after Yanukovich's ouster. The NEW Ukrainian government is the same as it was before. The corruption, the intimidation isn't going anywhere. If I were a betting man, I would wager that things aren't going to change all that much in the NEW Ukraine. Lies, deceit, and corruption will always be a part of Ukrainian politics.
Actually, I think you are drinking too much Russian Kool Aid. LOL
Perhaps if you were in Ukraine, or your wife was from Ukraine instead of Russia, your analysis would be different.
You seem to provide no basis other than your biases against Ukraine to suggest that the corruption will not be fought and largely eliminated. If you have any evidence to support that position other than your biases, please provide it.
Here are a few links to recent stories about fighting corruption in Ukraine..... Please remember the interim government in Kiev has only been in power for a very short time.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ex-ministers-house-searched-as-part-of-gas-scheming-inquiry-340401.html
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/police-seize-286000-and-hr-659000-from-ex-agrarian-minister-prysiazhniuk-340402.html
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/cash-jewelry-seized-in-ex-ukrainian-ministers-offices-apartments-340446.html
Lets wait and see what happens after the May elections.
Your reference to the right wing nuts that attacked the Russian TV owner is comical. Let's see how that compares with the Russian "free press".
Yanuckovich cut off the independent TV channels in Ukraine while he was still in power, Russia cut off the independent TV channels (particularily Channel 5) in Crimea, while he changed all channels to Russian propaganda programming. Yes, your mother Russia have an outstanding record of 'free press'. LOL
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If I were a betting man, I would wager that things aren't going to change all that much in the NEW Ukraine. Lies, deceit, and corruption will always be a part of Ukrainian politics.
If that is the case, the EU will not do much to rebuild Ukraine. "Lies, deceit and corruption" would make them the same as Russia.
That statement is wrong because Russia has huge oil and gas exports and Ukraine has minimal exports. So Ukraine would become more like Haiti. Haiti receives much aid yet remains a basket case because it can not reduce corruption.
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DS,
The BIG question is whether the Ukrainian government changes for the better. All of the other Eastern European countries who went through changes after the fall of the Soviet Union have emerged as somewhat reputable democracies, with free press and oversight on corruption. Ukraine has a meddlesome babushka next door who, with her meddling, has prevented Ukraine from ever getting married to democratic principles. I, for one, cannot discount it, but do not have as much faith as Calmissile that things will be different.
It continues to be in Russia's best interest to have a weak next door neighbor that can be bullied. What scares Putin and his government is having a successful and prosperous next door neighbor who follows the footprints of, say, Poland or the Czech Republic.
For those who lived in the times of the Soviet Union, it must be very strange thinking that the West is now represented by all of Germany, Poland and the Baltics. It is quite amazing of the pushback that Putin is getting meddling in what was once the assumed lynch pin to the west of the Soviet hegemony, Ukraine. I don't think he will continue to have much traction. And his saber rattling will get him further in the Dog House, DogSpot.
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Lies, deceit, and corruption will always be a part of Ukrainian politics.
The said could have been said of the Republic of Georgia before its revolution. However, for better or for worse, Georgia did put into place measures to fight corruption. If the election in Ukraine brings in people who are intent on fighting corruption, anything is possible. An interesting analysis of the Georgian efforts: [size=78%]http://www.silkroadstudies.org/new/docs/silkroadpapers/1209Engvall.pdf (http://www.silkroadstudies.org/new/docs/silkroadpapers/1209Engvall.pdf)[/size]
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Actually, I think you are drinking too much Russian Kool Aid. LOL
Perhaps if you were in Ukraine, or your wife was from Ukraine instead of Russia, your analysis would be different.
You seem to provide no basis other than your biases against Ukraine to suggest that the corruption will not be fought and largely eliminated. If you have any evidence to support that position other than your biases, please provide it.
Not really. I think that the Russian government and the Ukrainian government are both equal in all these ways. I am in no way a Russian apologist. I don't believe they have any right to be in Crimea. I don't reference Russian media. Ever. For the most part I stopped paying attention to it long before Maidan. My point is that many folks around here are swinging from the nuts of the NEW Ukrainian government when the reality is they are not any better than what was there before. Nor will they be, in my opinion.
Lets wait and see what happens after the May elections.
Agreed. But as I said before, expect much of the same. I hope I'm wrong.
Your reference to the right wing nuts that attacked the Russian TV owner is comical. Let's see how that compares with the Russian "free press".
On the contrary. Not comical at all. This is the stuff that Ukrainians need to be concerned about with their NEW government.
Yanuckovich cut off the independent TV channels in Ukraine while he was still in power, Russia cut off the independent TV channels (particularily Channel 5) in Crimea, while he changed all channels to Russian propaganda programming. Yes, your mother Russia have an outstanding record of 'free press'. LOL
Again, I'm not an apologist nor supporter of Russian government. I also don't excuse anything Yanukovich has done.
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LOL.
I'm sure the EU is elated to welcome Ukraine into the union. Ukraine have already started showning the seedlings of a budding democratic nation. Angela Merkel would've been all wet with excitement had she seen this video showcasing the very gentile, democratic manner representatives of the *new* Ukraine handled a TV station exec for showing the Putin Speech after the Crimea referendum election.
Anyone with an extra few minutes to spare is welcome to summarize the video for those who isn't too familiar with the language.
My interpretation is, and certainly open for correction, a group of representative of the new Ukraine met with this silly TV exec to find out why they showed Putin's speech when it was censored blacked out apparently in Ukraine. The meeting was very gracious, the Ukrainian way. Very well mannered especially right at the 4 minute mark of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mQsk4zf4gsE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mQsk4zf4gsE)
Ladies and Gents, let us please welcome the new member of the European Union.
:clapping:
Too bad the *power went out accidentally* and we aren't able to witness the event past the 6 minute mark. Ukrainians must be phocking excited long with Angela.
The dude ought to immigrate to the US and get himself coverage under Obamacre so his *pre-existing condition* can be looked at and cared for.
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Not an apologist for the Russian government . . . if you like your plan
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RK85eLQJKYk#t=0
Ukraines Deadly Nightshade troops
A lighter topic in a deadly serious thread.
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If Ukraine wants true change, they need to dismiss all politicians that were in power before the revolution. I'm sure there were some nice guys in there but no favorites should remain. As a collective group, the Ukrainian government failed their country. Nobody had the guts to stand up to the corruption that happened in all parties, not just Yanukovych's. Hopefully Ukrainians will be able to find a man similar to the man in the videos below. He is the man outside of the USSR that's most responsible for their demise. He is a man that's so respected by our enemies, that some of their leaders attended his funeral. Too bad he's not leading this country right now.
JayH, you're into patriotic themes right now. You'd probably like the videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpH5L8zCtSk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt8y18YFH70
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If some other lunatic, like a Ted Cruz, would be US President.
Ted Cruz is a mainstream conservative. You seem to consider people
slightly to the right of your fringe far left wing to be lunatics. Ted Cruz
myself or most conservatives have no desire for war with Russia. My
son is now in the reserves (he has been to both Iraq and Afghanistan
as an Naval Aviator)
Ted Cruz is my first choice for president. Last time around my first
choice was Herman Cain. I chose them because each of them have
the ability to articulate the message of conservatism. Fiscal sanity,
less government intrusion into our lives and more liberty.
Udachi !
Bill
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If Ukraine wants true change, they need to dismiss all politicians that were in power before the revolution. I'm sure there were some nice guys in there but no favorites should remain. As a collective group, the Ukrainian government failed their country. Nobody had the guts to stand up to the corruption that happened in all parties, not just Yanukovych's. Hopefully Ukrainians will be able to find a man similar to the man in the videos below. He is the man outside of the USSR that's most responsible for their demise. He is a man that's so respected by our enemies, that some of their leaders attended his funeral. Too bad he's not leading this country right now.
One of the things that really bothers me on forums is how out of touch some guys are with this current situation. I highlighted my point of exception above--- over 100 have died and thousands injured at Maidan doing exactly what you say no one had the guts to do-standing up to corruption.
Words get parodied that are quite wrong-- you( and others) keep repeating them. This government is quite different- a different emphasis altogether-look at the initiatives they have taken-- and stop harping back to previous eras-albeit not long ago. The steps to end corruption are being taken- people called to order for sins-- and it will be an accelerating trend once the election has taken place.
A major reason that made Putin move now-- and is still aspiring to control Ukraine is that very corruption trail will lead back to Moscow-and him. that is not something he personally wants exposed and is prepared to do anything to prevent that.
Above all else-- get a handle on today's Ukraine and how so much has changed-- and how quickly it has changed.It has turned into a major gamble for a decent future that Ukraine has made-- and they should be allowed to get there-- and not run over by a crazy dictator in Putin.The west must help Ukraine and its very decent people/.
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One of the things that really bothers me on forums is how out of touch some guys are with this current situation. I highlighted my point of exception above--- over 100 have died and thousands injured at Maidan doing exactly what you say no one had the guts to do-standing up to corruption.
Jay, I was talking about the Ukrainian government when referring to not having guts, not it's people.
This government is quite different-
If different is good, you should be advocating getting rid of the whole lot including past politicians. There are people who want Yulia Tymoshenko back in power. She is a favorite of West Ukrainians but her reputation is tarnished and there's no way she will be a uniter of a divided Ukraine.
A major reason that made Putin move now-- and is still aspiring to control Ukraine is that very corruption trail will lead back to Moscow-and him. that is not something he personally wants exposed and is prepared to do anything to prevent that.
Putin just annexed Crimea and you think he's worried about getting exposed for corruption and hurting his reputation? Exposing Putin's corruption isn't going to hurt his reputation anymore than where it's at now.
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Why hasn't he invaded already? Time is not on his side.
I have to disagree with you. Time is on his side now and I;m sure you know what Adversa tactics is :) Kiev clowns are doing now everyhting instead of Putin, each their next action, law and speech give Russia even more supporters in the Southern Ukraine while prorussian activists there elaborate the schemes of next moves.
Meanwhile Russia included Kharkiv, Lugansk and Donetsk in its weather forecast already on the 18 of March.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcDRsGfPP0Q
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Dear russian haters, can you stop your tantrum, please. Putin didn't send russian troops into Crimea. It was made by Alexander Suvorov in 1778, and its are still here since that :devil:
But in my opinion the person who opens the thread with such title must be baned for life at normal forum.
Do you want to make war?
Be sure first the American army may fight without good toilet paper supply :P
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Dear Whynotme,
I certainly do not hate Russia. I have a great love for the people of Russia. But as someone you have conversed pleasantly with for over a year, and who enjoys your company very much, and that of your soon to be husband, I cannot quite understand the bad feelings you always seem to display towards Americans when you post.
We welcome you with open arms. The Americans that you have met have been very nice to you and that big galoot you call a fiancee. I would hope that you remember these things when you think that we don't care for Russian people.
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whynotme and justme100,
There will not be a military war between Russia and Europe/America. Some say there will be an economic war (ever increasing sanctions and trade barriers). I doubt it will become very serious because there are strong disincentives on both sides against escalating the sanctions to an all-out war.
Impact on Russia - If a trade war, Russia will lose and lose big. Russian economy is only 2.8% of global GDP, so it is not in a position to dictate (other than energy exports to Europe). The curtailment of energy exports to Europe would harm the Russian economy far more than the European economy. And over the long term, Europe would find other suppliers/sources of energy such that Russia would lose these important export markets forever.
Impact on Europe - The West will lose too in an all-out trade war. The European economy is recovering, and rising energy costs could make the recovery stall. This would continue for years until Europe developed reasonable new sources. I also understand that Germany businesses have made large investments in the Russian economy and they are lobbying Merkel not to do anything rash.
So disincentives on both sides will keep the trade sanctions from becoming unreasonable. Although Putin is not a reasonable man, he surely realizes that Russia would suffer far more. Europe could survive a large trade war, yet could Putin survive?
In these times the most intelligent indicator is that made by the stock markets. Stock market prices reflect expectations for the near future. So far, the Western stock markets have not been seriously affected, and even the initial downturn in the Russian markets has slackened.
I agree with one stock market guru forecast: this will end "... with a slap on the wrist for Russia and for the global economy to keep humming along at a decent clip."
Russia keeps Crimea but has harmed itself over the long term as Europe further reduces its dependence (now 30%) on Russian sources of energy. Was Crimea worth it?
And now Ukraine, if it can reduce corruption, could easily become over 10-20 years a strong Western ally at Russia's borders. Was Crimea worth it?
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Dear Whynotme,
I certainly do not hate Russia. I have a great love for the people of Russia. But as someone you have conversed pleasantly with for over a year, and who enjoys your company very much, and that of your soon to be husband, I cannot quite understand the bad feelings you always seem to display towards Americans when you post.
We welcome you with open arms. The Americans that you have met have been very nice to you and that big galoot you call a fiancee. I would hope that you remember these things when you think that we don't care for Russian people.
Dear Jone,
Give me a favour and stop taking care about my private life, please...
And stop being more hypocrite talking about a great love for the people of Russia.
And yes, I have a very bad memmory - I remember all :rolleyes:
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whynotme and justme100,
and blah-blah-blah...
Homegrown analysts make me laugh only :popcorn:
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Dear Jone,
Give me a favour and stop taking care about my private life, please...
And stop being more hypocrite talking about a great love for the people of Russia.
And yes, I have a very bad memmory - I remember all :rolleyes:
You do me a disservice. Don't turn this around. I am not a hypocrite. And what memories are you talking about that you 'remember all'?
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Europe could survive a large trade war, yet could Putin survive?
Putin has enough money to last many lifetimes. Russia will suffer in a economic war but Putin will always live good. He has also achieved the pinnacle of power in Russia but that is not enough to have his name survive in the history books for many generations to come. He needs to do more.
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You do me a disservice. Don't turn this around. I am not a hypocrite. And what memories are you talking about that you 'remember all'?
Ìîæíî ìíå íå îòâå÷àòü? :D Ëó÷øå îòäåëÿòü ìóõ îò êîòëåò, à îáñóæäåíèå ëè÷íîé æèçíè îò ìèðîâûõ ïðîáëåì.
May I not answer? Better separate flies from cutlets and privacy life discussion from global problems.
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Íèêîãäà íå âîþéòå ñ ðóññêèìè 1988 ã. Never make war with Russians 1988
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/millaa/taran-550x316_zps4cefa8b0.jpg)
let me not to translate from Russian here...imagine u are reading comics :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SME4w037FgA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SME4w037FgA)
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Whynotme, it would be a courtesy to all non-Russian speakers/readers if you could use English in your posts ;).
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Aww Shucks!
Are Catalonia and Scotland due for some serious economic sanctioning too, or even Venice once they get this referendum official? What if Quebec succeeds with theirs?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/15/more-sovereignty-votes-sunday-referendum-may-see-venice-elect-to-secede-from-italy/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/15/more-sovereignty-votes-sunday-referendum-may-see-venice-elect-to-secede-from-italy/)
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Whynotme, it would be a courtesy to all non-Russian speakers/readers if you could use English in your posts ;).
Is using of Russian banned here already and only ukrainian allowed? :P
Hope you're satisfied now, I have to do a lot of work puting my quotes to google translator
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Never make war with Russians 1988
The Soviets were very aggressive back then. They even took their submarines head on with American subs playing games of chicken. There were many military incidences like the one you just showed. Many more incidences never made the news and we'll never know about.
The Russians had balls back then. Fortunately America had Ronald Reagan. Putin still has his big set of balls from the old days. Unfortunately we now have Obama who think loves solves all problems.
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The Soviets were very aggressive back then.
Explane please what American military ships forgot near Sevastopol?
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Is using of Russian banned here already and only ukrainian allowed? :P
The use of Russian or Ukrainian or ANY other non-English language is not BANNED but neither is it encouraged since most RWD members have little or no proficiency in Russian. You failed to notice that I was only asking for a courtesy, not making a reprimand :-\.
Hope you're satisfied now, I have to do a lot of work puting my quotes to google translator
Thank you for your kind efforts ::).
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Explane please what American military ships forgot near Sevastopol?
They forgot to bring milk and cookies.
At the time, America had a program to challenge territorial claims on the world's oceans and airspace that are considered excessive under international law. I remember in 1986 when Libya wanted to own 200 miles Mediterranean Sea past their coastline. Not going to happen. America sank a few Libyan boats and pushed them back.
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I remember in 1986 when Libya wanted to own 200 miles Mediterranean Sea past their coastline.
Maybe a bit less, since that'd have included Malta and maybe bits of southern Sicily, too ;D.
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Homegrown analysts make me laugh only :popcorn:
On an issue as newsworthy as this, do you not read the facts and ponder the implications? If so, your are homegrown too. One difference, my home is the West, not Moscow. My facts come from reputable, global news agencies, not Putin speeches.
After you marry and live in a free and open society for five years, try to remember the noodles hanging from your ears in March 2014.
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On an issue as newsworthy as this, do you not read the facts and ponder the implications? If so, your are homegrown too. One difference, my home is the West, not Moscow. My facts come from reputable, global news agencies, not Putin speeches.
After you marry and live in a free and open society for five years, try to remember the noodles hanging from your ears in March 2014.
The main difference is that I can read both sourses, make my own conclusions and don't spam web-space with its.
And calm down, I'm too old to believe in a free open society anywhere on that planet. Democracy is a steady crowd of fools delusion that they have the real power
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The main difference is that I can read both sourses, make my own conclusions and don't spam web-space with its.
And calm down, I'm too old to believe in a free open society anywhere on that planet. Democracy is a steady crowd of fools delusion that they have the real power
Did you really write this?
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And calm down
Welcome to the forum !
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Whynotme, you have viewpoints that are much different than from the average person. What are the viewpoints of your future husband on the current events? I sincerely hope you two match up well on politics and world views so you can have a happy life together.
I'm curious. Has any Western man or FSU women broken off their friendship or relationship over differences of opinion on current events?
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Whynotme, you have viewpoints that are much different than from the average person. What are the viewpoints of your future husband on the current events? I sincerely hope you two match up well on politics and world views so you can have a happy life together.
I'm curious. Has any Western man or FSU women broken off their friendship or relationship over differences of opinion on current events?
Billy, she has said that she wants to talk about the issues and not
about her personal life. I think we should respect her request.
Udachi
Bill
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And calm down, I'm too old to believe in a free open society anywhere on that planet. Democracy is a steady crowd of fools delusion that they have the real power
Wow.... I have to admit, this is a good point. the "Iron Law of Oligarchy" does seem to show up in all the so-called democracies.
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My facts come from reputable, global news agencies, not Putin speeches.
Which agencies?
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Whynotme, you have viewpoints that are much different than from the average person. What are the viewpoints of your future husband on the current events? I sincerely hope you two match up well on politics and world views so you can have a happy life together.
I'm curious. Has any Western man or FSU women broken off their friendship or relationship over differences of opinion on current events?
My viewpoints are the viewpoints of average russian mature woman. Of course its different from Barbies views. Many guys here are seaching such type of women - easy to control >>> just send her to kitchen.
As for my future husband ;D ... seems I catched the last adequate one who did not post at both forums.
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After you marry and live in a free and open society for five years, try to remember the noodles hanging from your ears in March 2014.
There are seeds of truth in your words but also some sort of blindness. When a man can easily see noodles on somebody else ears it's hard to see noodles hanging from own ears :)
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I must research this noodles on the ears expression, but in context it seems to be something similar to "drank the kool-aid"
Believing propaganda and misinformation.
While I certainly do love my country, I'm not naive enough to believe everything the government says either.. nor the news, unless I can verify it from multiple sources from multiple countries and even then, global oligarchy.. yeah, I don't trust anyone ::)
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I'm curious. Has any Western man or FSU women broken off their friendship or relationship over differences of opinion on current events?
I know 2 cases)
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And now Ukraine, if it can reduce corruption, could easily become over 10-20 years a strong Western ally at Russia's borders.
With all my respect, please read carefully all info about current situation in Ukraine in any sphere. you can use any source, even ukrainian, even they can't hide what;s going on there now. There will be no state of Ukraine in 20 years.
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My viewpoints are the viewpoints of average russian mature woman. Of course its different from Barbies views. Many guys here are seaching such type of women - easy to control >>> just send her to kitchen.
As for my future husband ;D ... seems I catched the last adequate one who did not post at both forums.
Thanks for sharing that little bit of information.
I'm glad you, justme100, and Belvis are sharing your opinions here. That's hard to do when you're in the minority. I think it's important for posters here to see the views coming from Russia. Russian news, not Ukrainian or American is most important to me now because it's Russia who is dictating the events.
Putin has a lot of support for what he's doing and whatever he's about to do. Putin has much more support from his people than Obama.
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This is pretty funny:
http://youtu.be/H8slqbNdacM
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whynotme and justme100,
There will not be a military war between Russia and Europe/America. Some say there will be an economic war (ever increasing sanctions and trade barriers). I doubt it will become very serious because there are strong disincentives on both sides against escalating the sanctions to an all-out war.
I would not be that certain.
As it stands right now, all that is needed is one bullet and a war will definitely will break out even though Putin knows very well that in a conventional war his ass will be severely kicked.
He is embracing the North Korea strategy which is: He's nuts. Leave him alone or he will statrt a nuclear war.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?318371-1/russian-intervention-ukraine (http://www.c-span.org/video/?318371-1/russian-intervention-ukraine)
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Is using of Russian banned here already and only ukrainian allowed? :P
Hope you're satisfied now, I have to do a lot of work puting my quotes to google translator
Oh boy, here we go again. :-\
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With all my respect, please read carefully all info about current situation in Ukraine in any sphere. you can use any source, even ukrainian, even they can't hide what;s going on there now.....
President Obama calls Vladimir Putin to discuss the situation in Ukraine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmIUm1E4OcI
The most compelling exchange of this conversation happened at the 1:30 mark.
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Today the world's largest economies suspended Russia from the G8 membership. "Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said being kicked out of G8 would be no big deal."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/24/russia-shrugs-threat-expulsion-g8
Lavrov's opinion is based on the fact that both the G8 and G20 are informal organizations. Nevertheless, the G8 snub shows that the world's largest economies (other than China which is not a member of the G8) wish not to include Russia in its summit conferences to promote a world order. The world's leading economies are isolating Russia.
The predecessor G7 started working with Boris Yeltsin in 1995 to encourage capitalist reforms. And Russia joined the G8 in 1998 making it the G8.
Putin wishes to return Russia to the status of a world power. His steps also seem to be pushing Russia backwards towards Soviet isolationism.
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Brother-in-law (along with, I would surmise, every other fighting aged male in Ukraine) received a notice to prepare for recall and deployment. If I understood this correctly, this is preparation only at this point rather than mobilization. He is now on what would be like a stand-by status with orders to report within two hours of further notification.
Anyone know more about this recall? Hopefully only precautionary.
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Putin/Russia would never make it public. "ouch that hurt" to anything short of a nuke in my opinion. He's gotta keep up the appearance of being invincible for any of his possible plans to work.
Meanwhile the states apparently take the opposite but equally old school approach.. speak softly and carry a big stick,
Daveman.. that is concerning, but I'm glad they are taking preparatory steps, Paul Revere rides the postal service...
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Brother-in-law (along with, I would surmise, every other fighting aged male in Ukraine) received a notice to prepare for recall and deployment. If I understood this correctly, this is preparation only at this point rather than mobilization. He is now on what would be like a stand-by status with orders to report within two hours of further notification.
Anyone know more about this recall? Hopefully only precautionary.
Every eligible male is on at least that that basis-so yes it is only preparation at this time. The army is not on full mobilisation at this stage--but is in full on preparation as they are trying to get organised.
Surveys are showing very high % prepared to fight now-- and only 13% saying they would not fight.That is is a staggering change in less than a month and shows how much has changed in this time.
Let us all hope this is as far as it goes .
Putin still has his invasion force at the ready-- so this crisis is a long way from over.
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Did you really write this?
Explane me, please, how calls for war are corresponded to democratic values? You may do that on this theard name example.
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The U.S. House Intelligence Chairman, Mike Rogers, offered that America should provide communications technology and small arms to Ukraine.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/house-intelligence-chairman-calls-sending-arms-ukraine-n59826 (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/house-intelligence-chairman-calls-sending-arms-ukraine-n59826)
So it looks like the extent of U.S. involvement will be economic warfare and arming and funding Ukraine.
NATO will inevitably expand (more quickly than planned, that is) as a result of Russia's political decisions.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/discussions/interviews/nato-is-back (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/discussions/interviews/nato-is-back)
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Brother-in-law (along with, I would surmise, every other fighting aged male in Ukraine) received a notice to prepare for recall and deployment. If I understood this correctly, this is preparation only at this point rather than mobilization. He is now on what would be like a stand-by status with orders to report within two hours of further notification.
Anyone know more about this recall? Hopefully only precautionary.
Dave, it goes farther than that in some areas.
Ochka has family and friends who have already been called up to active duty. These are young men who completed equivalent of ROTC in Ukraine.
Also, she has gone past 'military signup place' in small town where her parents live, and has witnessed long lines of men who are wanting to volunteer.
She tried to get into a nursing training program; but was told she was too old (mid 40s) . . . at least for the current situation !!!!
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Ochka has family and friends who have already been called up to active duty. These are young men who completed equivalent of ROTC in Ukraine.
Also, she has gone past 'military signup place' in small town where her parents live, and has witnessed long lines of men who are wanting to volunteer.
What will the Ukrainian government give those men for their training? Pitchforks? Ukraine is short on munitions for their regular army and even if they enlist men for an larger army, they will not become professional soldiers overnight when they graduate from training. Tell Ochka to keep tabs on whether or not her family and friends get adequate equipment for training.
A few years ago members of our government and the Ukrainian government made a deal to get rid of a sizable amount of Ukraine's munitions according to the article below.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573557/Flashback-Senator-Obama-pushed-destruction-15-000-TONS-ammunition-400-000-small-arms-1-000-anti-aircraft-missiles-Ukraine.html
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Good link BB. I also adds to more reasons why the US should feel obligated to assist Ukraine in every way now.
Ukraine was and is trying to be a good world citizen in giving up nuclear weapons-- the US signed a treaty on that issue--now we see vast quatities of weapons and ammunition that could have found it's way into anti-world activities given up-- and right now used in the defence of Ukraine.
For me-- it is all the more reason that the USA must get involved now in this Ukrainian crisis.
Quote from the linked story--
"But most of the ammunition stockpiles – crucial for keeping a standing army battle-ready – were destroyed"
"The United Nations had already identified some 7 million small arms and light weapons, and 2 million tons of conventional ammunition, warehoused in more than 80 weapons depots spread across the country.
Many of the artillery shells shown in photographs from Donetsk, multiple weapons experts told MailOnline, would be the same types of ammunition required to repel advancing Russian divisions as they advanced to the west, had they not been destroyed."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573557/Flashback-Senator-Obama-pushed-destruction-15-000-TONS-ammunition-400-000-small-arms-1-000-anti-aircraft-missiles-Ukraine.html#ixzz2wvuycbg8
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Good link BB. I also adds to more reasons why the US should feel obligated to assist Ukraine in every way now.
Ukraine was and is trying to be a good world citizen in giving up nuclear weapons-- the US signed a treaty on that issue--now we see vast quatities of weapons and ammunition that could have found it's way into anti-world activities given up-- and right now used in the defence of Ukraine.
For me-- it is all the more reason that the USA must get involved now in this Ukrainian crisis.
Unfortunately, that puts me in mind of this line in the movie "Animal House":
http://youtu.be/zOXtWxhlsUg
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So Ukrainians want to fight. Bravo!
These are school teachers, shop clerks, bank employees, etc. They have had very little military training. They may or may not have weapons. They have little armor, and even less airpower.
Yet they have courage and want to stand up to trained, regular Russian troops with air supremacy and innumerable heavy tanks.
These brave Ukrainians are merely meat for sausage.
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So Ukrainians want to fight. Bravo!
Yet they have courage and want to stand up to trained, regular Russian troops with air supremacy and innumerable heavy tanks.
These brave Ukrainians are merely meat for sausage.
The Chechens made a fair show of humiliating that "mighty" Russian military machine with far less resources than Ukraine has. Initially at least-the Russians lost a lot of equipment and men before decimating everything in their path.The lesson they learnt there is likely to be a precedent on how they would approach any invasion of mainland Ukraine-- this will not be a roll in and change the signs on the buildings invasion-- this will be a decimate anything in their path type invasion with the subsequent loss of life of men,women,children who happen to be in the way.
Ukraine will resist any further intrusion-- and from there it will not be so easy to control.
What can prevent that is full on military backing of the west-- as all bullies are cowards -Putin will not take on a battle that he knows he will lose .
Why wait to see what he does--pre-empt it and give Ukraine the support now to defend itself-that is what will prevent more loss of life.
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I remain convinced that the Russians are not interested in a large war...they NEVER were... I believe they have already achieved what they wanted to. If the Ukrainians were to now engage the Russians in Crimea then there could be a bloodbath...but I don't see that happening either. It is probably time to wind down the hostilities and allow both countries to move on, in which case EVERYBODY WINS.
Fathertime!
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FT, in all seriousness I'd be careful believing that. Hell, I was screaming atop of my lungs to whomever wanted to listen that Putin was NOT going to invade Crimea. I was convinced that would never happen. So did many others.
That was one hell of a bracket buster.
Hehe, well yes you were incorrect regarding the Russians invading Crimea, I don't know what your reasoning was. From my perspective, the Russians capturing Crimea and having total control over the ports is/was the objective. There is no need for them to move into other parts of Ukraine. I don't see them risking a bloody mess in order to obtain a large population that doesn't really want them there.
The Russians will pay a price, but in the long run, assuming they keep Crimea I think they will weather the storm fine. Meanwhile Ukraine can take the rest of their peoples in whatever direction they want, so no need for massive bloodshed, IMO. THey can all push a little reset button and move on and they all end up winning. (Or at least not losing!)
Fathertime!
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FT-- your are underestimating Putins intent here. There is little doubt in my mind( and most informed observers!!) that it at the very least was and maybe still is--Putins intent was/is to roll into mainland Ukraine after creating the excuse via the contrived "provocation" that Moscow has been attempting to create .
It has been an extreme full on attempt to fool the Russian public into supporting Putins aspirations of a new Soviet Union.Why would he risk so much in igniting the concerns from previous era's-- when Russians are more interested in being part of the world-- and not the pariahs they are now going to be?
Even if your assertion is right-- then there would still be little to lose by supporting Ukraine in maintaining it's territory.The upside is that it would make it 100% clear to Putin that interfering and invading other countries will not be
tolerated.
Nato warns of Russian army build-up on Ukraine border
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26704205
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FT, how exactly is Ukraine winning?
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From here looks like they are right up to the line saying "BRING IT!" in Russian of course.
One of my favorite teachers called this tactic "Invitation by provocation" Despite Putin's master plan, he still needs to justify it somewhat plausibly to the Russian public..
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Despite Putin's master plan, he still needs to justify it somewhat plausibly to the Russian public..
Haven't you been reading the Russians' posts here. There is NOTHING Putin could do that most of them would not support. They believe completely everything their regime spouts. I think they would cheer Tsar Vladimir I if he launched nukes.
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FT, how exactly is Ukraine winning?
With Russia being content, I feel Ukraine wins because they can perhaps unite what remains of their disheveled country (the far greater part) and move towards the western way, if this is what they decide to do.
FT-- your are underestimating Putins intent here. There is little doubt in my mind( and most informed observers!!) that it at the very least was and maybe still is--Putins intent was/is to roll into mainland Ukraine after creating the excuse via the contrived "provocation" that Moscow has been attempting to create .
It has been an extreme full on attempt to fool the Russian public into supporting Putins aspirations of a new Soviet Union.Why would he risk so much in igniting the concerns from previous era's-- when Russians are more interested in being part of the world-- and not the pariahs they are now going to be?
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I have to disagree and believe there are plenty of other voices that agree that Russia has taken what it wants and never had the intention of going further. I don’t believe they EVER wanted provocation with Ukraine, they did want this little part and have gotten it without much loss of life. In my opinion, the best move for both sides is to move on, and for outside forces to stay the Christ out, especially the USA.
From here looks like they are right up to the line saying "BRING IT!" in Russian of course.
One of my favorite teachers called this tactic "Invitation by provocation" Despite Putin's master plan, he still needs to justify it somewhat plausibly to the Russian public..
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Hey Dewed! My impression is the Russians need to bring their troops over as a show they are willing to fight if need be. I am under the impression that it is a deterrent to anyone else who considered meddling, as they can see it will not be without a big fight. If that reasoning stands up, there will be no large invasion, it is a defensive move since they have already taken the territory they wanted.
Of course everything I've said would be easily proved wrong if Russia started an invasion of Ukraine...I just don't see that happening, as there isn't enough of a reason to want a country that would be rebelling against their 'master'...they are better off without the hassle.
Fathertime!
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FT ,
russias movements of troops and there buildup along the entire east border with ukraine is going to be one of two things,
it could be the defensive posturing , but in reality , if that was so it is far more likely to be more concentrated in the south east, closer to crimea,
no other civilised country is going to invade russia in the north east, kharkiv has masses of rusky troops just 50 km away , over the border in belgorod , this isnt defence it is more likely waiting in the wings for the right trip /spark to move across into ukraine to ''SAVE '' the ethnc russians there , who by and large probably dont want it
with so much corruption abound within regional govs, it is difficult to make a proper reading of which way this will go , but just one major incident within an s/east oblast will very probably set the russian army westwards,
i have no doubt putin is mercilessly calculating , he has no better time than now or the very near future to make this move , if he chooses to ,
if he waits, he might lose the momentum/moment
ukraine will hold elctions and new gov will have unquestioned legitimacy, , now he can posture the gov doesnt , regardless of fact below
http://khpg.org.ua/en/index.php?id=1395358623
ukraine will if it recovers economicaly , boost its defences , have no doubt about that , it may join NATO ,
now it is vulnerable , it has no gaurantee of military help with troops etc from any third party, now or the very near future is putins moment when ukraine is at its most vulnerable , and parts of moldova, right across to take it all back as far as he can push ,
and dont forget putin still has yanukovich , as his puppet to restore ''legitimalty if he wishes to use him, remember yano wrote to the duma asking for their help to retake his position /country , ? yanu spent time after he left kiev in crimea, what hand did he have in that play ?? how affiliated is he with the new prime minister aksanov [goblin ] in crimea, ??
did they meet and plan in crimea ?? both have east mafia bases /connections ?
the EU/US have indicated their lack of will to get deeply involved and are prepared to sacrifice ukraine to save their economys, putin know this only too well
,
he has waited to get total control of crimea, all ukraine bases shut down ,forces removed , weapons in his control , no small resistance internally within crimea to cause any issues ,
all the chess pieces are in place to make the move, now /soon imho
question is will putin sieze his oppurtunity ? will he use yanukovich to front it when he does and where will it start ?
SX
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I have to disagree and believe there are plenty of other voices that agree that Russia has taken what it wants and never had the intention of going further.
None of us, including me, know for sure anything about this.
But I believe you are wrong because:
1) Russia will want full land access to Crimea, and long before they can complete a bridge across to Kerch. This means they will want (at least) a large strip of land from Mariupol to Kherson.
2) Russia will want full land access to the Russian speakers in Transinista, which means controlling the area all the way to Odesa and beyond.
3) Probably the best (potential) area from an economic viewpoint is the eastern third of Ukraine. This is where the heavy industry potential is, as well as the oil and shale gas deposits. It is not imaginable that the Russian leaders would not want this.
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None of us, including me, know for sure anything about this.
But I believe you are wrong because:
1) Russia will want full land access to Crimea, and long before they can complete a bridge across to Kerch. This means they will want (at least) a large strip of land from Mariupol to Kherson.
2) Russia will want full land access to the Russian speakers in Transinista, which means controlling the area all the way to Odesa and beyond.
3) Probably the best (potential) area from an economic viewpoint is the eastern third of Ukraine. This is where the heavy industry potential is, as well as the oil and shale gas deposits. It is not imaginable that the Russian leaders would not want this.
Hey ML!
Those are good points you make...I'd say the 1st point regarding the strip of land would be the most likely of the 3...BUT my feeling is Russia would have already taken it if they wanted it badly enough...they could have done practically anything those first couple days/weeks...Why would they wait and stage an invasion in different stages when it was all within their grasp outta the gate?...they could have annexed a lot more right away as they did in Crimea...Now if they were to attempt it, it would appear like two separate acquisitions and that would really stir up and turn the sentiment even more against them, and I think the world would react with more resolve and disincentives. To me, a secondary invasion makes little sense. It shouldn't be too long before we see which direction this goes.
FT ,
no other civilised country is going to invade russia in the north east, kharkiv has masses of rusky troops just 50 km away , over the border in belgorod , this isnt defence it is more likely waiting in the wings for the right trip /spark to move across into ukraine to ''SAVE '' the ethnc russians there , who by and large probably dont want it
,
he has waited to get total control of crimea, all ukraine bases shut down ,forces removed , weapons in his control , no small resistance internally within crimea to cause any issues ,
SX
interesting points SX..
Fathertime!
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Haven't you been reading the Russians' posts here. There is NOTHING Putin could do that most of them would not support. They believe completely everything their regime spouts. I think they would cheer Tsar Vladimir I if he launched nukes.
well I did say somewhat plausibly, but yes I agree with your assessment.. Russian Kool-Aid must be extremely tasty
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FT,
imho ,ML is spot on in his assumptions , id agree with them 100%
the only logical reason i can offer why vladimir has waited is below
1 he wanted to get total control of crimea , with no oppositon forces contained within that peninsula
2 he can then bulk it up with his next wave of forces there and readying all along the borders under the guise of military exercises for russia , while he waits to assess the response from ukraine and the EU/US/NATO
weak response will give him the green light to move forward again , all he needs is the spark of a pretext to step in on humanitarian grounds and link up the chess pieces across his board
if he has yanukovich to front that or re install , even better
game over for any oppostion from the west etc etc
look at the worst result for him, the west will sanction him, etc , they have done that ,all have stated they wont put troops on the ground , so he will win pretty quickly in a ground assault , he is prepared to suffer the worst as he is gambling it wont be that bad and wont last long , as all other players need russia to grow their economys too ,
if he is going to do it , he wont wait too long imho , time is of the essence or ukraine will recover some sense of what is happening and what to do with western help to prevent it
question still is if he will and when ?
SX
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Yet they have courage and want to stand up to trained, regular Russian troops with air supremacy and innumerable heavy tanks.
Most Eastern-Europeans share same kind of stupidity. With pitchforks against tanks, you know. :D
The Chechens made a fair show of humiliating that "mighty" Russian military machine with far less resources than Ukraine has.
So you really think Ukranians can be as good as Chechens? :D No, Jay, they can not. Chechens have militants, that's a part of their culture, their boys are raised to be ready to fight, Ukrainian boys are not, same as Russian.
There is no sense to compare Ukraine with Chechnya, they are too different.
Haven't you been reading the Russians' posts here. There is NOTHING Putin could do that most of them would not support. They believe completely everything their regime spouts.
Even if you read any Russian posts anywhere, there are things you don't get. Also many readers have a tendency to assume much more from posts they are reading than those posts are saying.
There are things our President could do that people would not support, like if he would decide to give Kuriles to Japan... :P And that Russians support Putin doesn't mean they (we) believe him or our goverment, Russians don't believe anybody, especially Russians don't believe officials. Russians support Putin's foreign policy because he is defending Russian interests, he is not an alien here, he is Russian too - he sees Russian interests in the world as most Russians see them. If he is doing it legitimately or not, most people don't care. Much more important if they think he is doing right things for Russia or not.
Russian Kool-Aid must be extremely tasty
You, guys, overrate media's importance and don't understand Russian mentality. And that fact you can't understand us doesn't mean that we are idiots. ;)
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Most Eastern-Europeans share same kind of stupidity. With pitchforks against tanks, you know. :D
So you really think Ukranians can be as good as Chechens? :D No, Jay, they can not. Chechens have militants, that's a part of their culture, their boys are raised to be ready to fight, Ukrainian boys are not, same as Russian.
There is no sense to compare Ukraine with Chechnya, they are too different.
I don't have a problem with these responses, although I think the Ukrainians would prefer "patriotism" to "stupidity" (even though the end result may be the same).
Even if you read any Russian posts anywhere, there are things you don't get. Also many readers have a tendency to assume much more from posts they are reading than those posts are saying.
There are things our President could do that people would not support, like if he would decide to give Kuriles to Japan... :P And that Russians support Putin doesn't mean they (we) believe him or our goverment, Russians don't believe anybody, especially Russians don't believe officials. Russians support Putin's foreign policy because he is defending Russian interests, he is not an alien here, he is Russian too - he sees Russian interests in the world as most Russians see them.
This is where I'm really struggling. :wallbash: Why do you consider it in Russia's interests to invade another country, even one which, 25 years ago, was part of the same country that you call home? What possible interest can Russia have in the internal affairs of another country? (I'm allowed to ask these questions because my country, unlike others, has never invaded anybody else!). One of the things which Putin was allegedly protecting was the right of ethnic Russians in Ukraine to live their lives in peace, not to be harassed or attacked just because they're Russian, and so on. It sounds so admirable, but how come nobody in Russia appears to have seen the interviews with the leaders of these groups in various places who swear that no such attacks have EVER occurred?
Some of the hyperbole which I've seen reported, such as Ukrainians drinking the blood of dead Russian babies, surely can't be believed by anybody with more than two brain cells.
If he is doing it legitimately or not, most people don't care. Much more important if they think he is doing right things for Russia or not.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. This has to be one of the saddest things I've seen written here.
You, guys, overrate media's importance and don't understand Russian mentality. And that fact you can't understand us doesn't mean that we are idiots. ;)
Nobody is saying that you're an idiot. Unfortunately, it appears that a lot of your fellow citizens ARE idiots, because they're believing everything that they read or see in the Russian media (despite your claim that media's importance is over-rated). Ranetka posted this earlier:
By the way, I do not even read Russian news on the subject - what for? I got plenty of info from people on the ground. The only news I watch is BBC and Al Jazeera.
I, too, have been watching the coverage from those outlets. I've seen their reporters having warning shots fired towards them by Russian troops. Please don't insult my intelligence by trying to fob this off as being blank rounds or something similar. Whatever Putin may have been dishing out in his statements, a bloodless welcome of his invasion force is NOT the truth.
And now those Crimeans who don't want to be part of the new order are being told that they can relocate to "mainland" Ukraine without any problem! How would you feel if you were told that you have to leave the city (possibly even the same house) where you have spent your whole life, and go and live several hundred kilometres away in a place where you may not know anybody and where you can't get a job - all this after having had all your savings effectively stolen because there is no access to banks to get your money.
I thought Wayne put it very nicely:
This is the latest from Crimea:
Russia has increased the cost of natural gas for Ukraine.
Ukraine has shut down electric to Crimea.
In Sevastopol area, cell phones are not working. Ukrainian companies control this.
Most internet service is shut off in Crimea. Again, Ukrainian companies.
Still, the only flights from Simferopol Airport are to and from Moscow.
Ukraine stopped allowing the flights over their air space, so the flights take much longer.
Tickets are almost impossible to buy.
No food in the stores.
Banks closed. No access to your money.
Weather is nice.
And I haven't even mentioned the homes being attacked...
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(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/millaa/getImageCAYON5ZQ_zps6eeab8bb.jpg)
translation:
It is hard to talk with deafs, show the truth to blinds and argue with idiots.
Everything is simple and clear for fools only. Don't rush to conclusions, dear Putin's policy experts :devil:
Btw, people in Strelkovyi (Kherson region) made desicion without referendum. they just drag the boundary pillars with Ukrainian checkpoint in the outskirts of the village to be within Russian Federation.
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I don't have a problem with these responses, although I think the Ukrainians would prefer "patriotism" to "stupidity" (even though the end result may be the same).
This is stupid patriotism, if you have nothing and another person has a gun and body armour, and you choose to fight with him, the risk you will be killed and will not defend your home is extremely high - so you will lose everything - you will lose your home and your life too. Fighting just for the sake of fighting has no sense, fighting only has a sense if you have a chance to win.
Why do you consider it in Russia's interests to invade another country, even one which, 25 years ago, was part of the same country that you call home? What possible interest can Russia have in the internal affairs of another country?
All that is going on actually not about Ukraine at all.
One of the things which Putin was allegedly protecting was the right of ethnic Russians in Ukraine to live their lives in peace, not to be harassed or attacked just because they're Russian, and so on.
This is just a formal reason, not a real reason. I thought you understand it.
Some of the hyperbole which I've seen reported, such as Ukrainians drinking the blood of dead Russian babies, surely can't be believed by anybody with more than two brain cells.
:D Do you really think that somebody believe in such horror tales?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
I would recommend you just accept it, because you can't change it. ;)
Unfortunately, it appears that a lot of your fellow citizens ARE idiots,
Every country and every nation has it's own idiots. It's ok, you know. ;D
they're believing everything that they read or see in the Russian media
What makes you think that people do believe everything? Even more, what makes you think we all are reading or watching our media? Do you really think that people form their opinions only this way?
And now those Crimeans who don't want to be part of the new order are being told that they can relocate to "mainland" Ukraine without any problem! How would you feel if you were told that you have to leave the city (possibly even the same house) where you have spent your whole life, and go and live several hundred kilometres away in a place where you may not know anybody and where you can't get a job - all this after having had all your savings effectively stolen because there is no access to banks to get your money.
Just recently Russians in Crimea could hear the same: if you don't like Ukraine - go to Russia! Abandon everything and go away. "Чемодан - вокзал - Россия" "Suitcase - Station - Russia", and so they did. They just took the station with them. ;)
I thought Wayne put it very nicely:
And I haven't even mentioned the homes being attacked...
This is a part of process, it's temporal changes. I guess nobody thought it's going to be easy.
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Even more, what makes you think we all are reading or watching our media? Do you really think that people form their opinions only this way?
So where is it you get your information that formulates your opinion?
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So Ukrainians want to fight. Bravo!
[...]
These brave Ukrainians are merely meat for sausage.
Russia would most certainly win the conventional war, but if it morphs to an occupation force (in the mainland), the US could nurture guerrilla tactics not unlike what was seen in the Iraq theatre. IEDs, bombings, etc. It's easy to make the Levada polls in favor of these actions reverse , especially when Ukrainians have everything to fight for and the average Russian soldier is an unmotivated conscript.
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FT,
imho ,ML is spot on in his assumptions , id agree with them 100%
the only logical reason i can offer why vladimir has waited is below
1 he wanted to get total control of crimea , with no oppositon forces contained within that peninsula
2 he can then bulk it up with his next wave of forces there and readying all along the borders under the guise of military exercises for russia , while he waits to assess the response from ukraine and the EU/US/NATO
weak response will give him the green light to move forward again , all he needs is the spark of a pretext to step in on humanitarian grounds and link up the chess pieces across his board
if he has yanukovich to front that or re install , even better
game over for any oppostion from the west etc etc
look at the worst result for him, the west will sanction him, etc , they have done that ,all have stated they wont put troops on the ground , so he will win pretty quickly in a ground assault , he is prepared to suffer the worst as he is gambling it wont be that bad and wont last long , as all other players need russia to grow their economys too ,
if he is going to do it , he wont wait too long imho , time is of the essence or ukraine will recover some sense of what is happening and what to do with western help to prevent it
question still is if he will and when ?
SX
Hey SX!
I understand your logic and of course it does make sense, although from my thinking the biggest factor remains that Russia could have easily took additional land and chose not to. It just doesn’t make sense to me that they would now do it later. If I were to continue to speculate (which I am), I’d say the troop buildup is a measure to allow the west to save face. The west can now say..’Look Russia was about to invade further’…’but our tough sanctions have indeed worked and given Russia pause’….meanwhile Russia already has the area they wanted.
Now I’m really going to go out on a limb with this, but I’ll say it anyway just to float another viable theory. I can see the strategy in the west wanting for the Ukrainians to fight…more so than the Ukrainians themselves…so it is the West’s job to ‘educate’ the Ukrainians on how they have been wronged so terribly and foment them to the point of fighting. I think it is unnecessary to do this, because it should all end right now before it gets too bloody and it ruins the win-win aspect of things.
Fathertime!
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Fighting just for the sake of fighting has no sense, fighting only has a sense if you have a chance to win.
Hundreds of thousands of Russian troops did not share your opinion - and died - when the Germans invaded the USSR in 1941 ;).
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Hehe, well yes you were incorrect regarding the Russians invading Crimea, I don't know what your reasoning was. From my perspective, the Russians capturing Crimea and having total control over the ports is/was the objective. There is no need for them to move into other parts of Ukraine. I don't see them risking a bloody mess in order to obtain a large population that doesn't really want them there.
The Russians will pay a price, but in the long run, assuming they keep Crimea I think they will weather the storm fine. Meanwhile Ukraine can take the rest of their peoples in whatever direction they want, so no need for massive bloodshed, IMO. THey can all push a little reset button and move on and they all end up winning. (Or at least not losing!)
Fathertime!
I don't know if you are either dumb, a provocateur or just plain angry. You posted this just above this one:
I remain convinced that the Russians are not interested in a large war...they NEVER were... I believe they have already achieved what they wanted to. If the Ukrainians were to now engage the Russians in Crimea then there could be a bloodbath...but I don't see that happening either. It is probably time to wind down the hostilities and allow both countries to move on, in which case EVERYBODY WINS.
Fathertime!
If Putin sees an opening somewhere in eastern Ukraine, he will send in the tanks and the army. That much everyone knows, NOW. There is a very high risk of world war if he does this.
Putin has shown his cards, they are on the table. Please show some decency and don't take this as a platform for your passive-aggressive behavior.
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Now I’m really going to go out on a limb with this, but I’ll say it anyway just to float another viable theory. I can see the strategy in the west wanting for the Ukrainians to fight…more so than the Ukrainians themselves…
Yes, you went out on a limb, and the limb just broke. Why would the West want Ukraine to fight? Russia would crush Ukraine quickly and take over the entire country.
Look at the map. With major forces massed both on Ukraine's eastern border and in Crimea, the Russian army would encircle Ukraine's army quickly (in the textbook manner the Soviet army defeated the Nazis at Stalingrad).
War would spook Europe, ending the economic recovery now underway in Europe. America gains nothing.
Instead of fighting, why not help the "new" Ukraine embark on a democratic, pro-western path. The G7 (G8 less Russia) is now discussing various forms of aid. If Ukraine's new government can reduce corruption, the country could blossom. The end result in 10-20 years is a western dynamo on Russia's borders.
That is far better than a war torn basket case. The question is whether Putin would allow Ukraine to advance far along the western path. My guess is that Putin would want to take eastern Ukraine. The only thing dissuading him would be knowing the West would probably hurt him bad economically, far more than the little slap on the wrist of today.
Who is to say that with the invasion of Crimea the West is not already on a long-term, irreversible path to have less and less to do with Russia?
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I think it is unnecessary to do this, because it should all end right now before it gets too bloody and it ruins the win-win aspect of things.
Fathertime!
FT, you still fail to see for Ukraine, it's lose/lose and has been since Putin decided to invade. You are way out on a limb there bruh. There is no win/win for Ukraine. Quite frankly it's debatable if it's a win/win for Russia. Putin isn't amassing troops on the border of Western Ukraine as any type of defensive measure. That can only be interpreted as an offensive posture.
Ukraine is disheveled because of Putin and it's now fractured. Putin did that and it's not up to Ukraine to appease Putin's Russia. Ukraine's only crime as far as Putin was concerned was to kick his booty boy to the curb. In Putin's eyes, this measure on the part of Ukraine made him appear weak in the eyes of his country. A country that he has stolen billions and is on the brink of a collapsing economy. There's been a lot of speculation about why he did this and why now. Putin is giving Russia a boogeyman to turn the attention from him. Occam's razor comes to mind.
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Ukraine's only crime as far as Putin was concerned was to kick his booty boy to the curb. In Putin's eyes, this measure on the part of Ukraine made him appear weak in the eyes of his country. A country that he has stolen billions and is on the brink of a collapsing economy.
Not only that. How dare a country bumpkin, like Ukraine is in the eyes of many Russians, dare do that kind of disrespect to its master.
THAT is the real reason why so many Russians are boiling inside.
The bottom line is that the little country bumpkin has shown their superior neighbors to the north what is to have the dignity they deserve. As always, they have shown they are no one's serfs.
AND it has the Kremlin appartchiks knees shaking.
There are many in Moscow and St. Pete looking very intently into what is happening in Kyiv. Why do you think Putler is trying to control what the see?
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War would spook Europe, ending the economic recovery now underway in Europe. America gains nothing.
WWI and WWII helped America become a superpower. Arms sales go up and manufacturing of other materials to support a war increases. Buying American is especially important in times of war or with war on the horizon.
As Obama has meetings with the leaders of Eastern European nations, those nations will be interested in buying American made military equipment, not just for security reasons, but to strengthen the bond between us. They will be offering bases on their lands for America troops to be stationed at.
Hopefully one day Russia will be so respected by the nations of the world that they'll ask Russia to park Russian troops on their lands due to the amount of respect and trust they'll have for them.
Russia continues to get their citizens pissed off at NATO and the West. This is supposed to be over, right? Why look for more support?
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-uses-1999-nato-bombing-media-war-over-135638344--sector.html
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There are many in Moscow and St. Pete looking very intently into what is happening in Kyiv. Why do you think Putler is trying to control what the see?
Not so sure that its "many." Putin’s popularity has just hit a 3-year high of 72% according to this credible source:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/13/we-treat-him-like-hes-mad-but-vladimir-putins-popularity-has-just-hit-a-3-year-high/
The chart included in the above article shows Putin's popularity for many years. Putin had been as high as 88%, so there is some dissent.
Yet the soft data says Putin has his country's support. I say that based on the RW posts at RWD plus my Russian wife. She feels some kinship with Ukrainian people and she is not a fan of Putin. However, she says Krim was a part of Russia for centuries and should be a part of Russia today.
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She feels some kinship with Ukrainian people and she is not a fan of Putin. However, she says Krim was a part of Russia for centuries and should be a part of Russia today.
So what? Krim was also a part of the Ottoman Empire for many years before that. So I guess Russia should then return Crimea to Turkey??? :rolleyes:
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I think you all might want to read Mendy on this particular topic that Gator has touched on: Putin's popularity.
He gives some very good insights.
To FT, you talk of a win/win situation. If Putin walks away with only Crimea, he is removed from office in less than two years. He has set himself on a course that can only be sustained with the invasion of Eastern Ukraine.
Here's Mendy:
http://russianreport.wordpress.com/
If Putin doesn't invade, he is left with an extremely Western leaning state which is now bereft of the major voting block that balanced the nation (Crimea). He also has alienated the entire set of Western powers who now view him as a pariah. How does that equal a win for him?
As for the Ukrainians, they will now exist in a constant state of Nationalism, chances are Ukraine will have its borders closed to Russia and will need to arm itself to defend the state. Couple that with an extremely bitter feeling of being invaded with a substantial amount of land stolen from them (imagine someone taking Hawaii from the US).
This whole adventurism was ill conceived and will be the ultimate down fall of Vladimir Vladimirovich.
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So what? Krim was also a part of the Ottoman Empire for many years before that. So I guess Russia should then return Crimea to Turkey??? :rolleyes:
Hammer, I am not saying her position is correct; it simply is her position.
And I do not subscribe to the concept of returning America to the native Americans.
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Hammer, I am not saying her position is correct; it simply is her position.
And I do not subscribe to the concept of returning America to the native Americans.
Of course not. We stole it fair and square. ;)
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Of course not. We stole it fair and square. ;)
It was their own fault. Their immigration policies were much too liberal ;D
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...And I do not subscribe to the concept of returning America to the native Americans.
Of course not. We stole it fair and square. ;)
Damn! There's those pesky geese/gander again. Where the heck is my 5-out?
...As of recent legislation it is now a crime to even post anti-government news on internet sites while Rain TV, Echo Radio, Novaya Gazetta and Lenta News are battling new restrictions and forced staff changes....
Take heart Mendy, even in an openly democratic country like the Netherlands amongst others, you go to prison if you spoke ill about your leaders, too. 5 years, I think, in the Netherlands....Shadow can correct me on that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se-majest%C3%A9
Heck, you get fined Euro 45K in France if you insult your president, LOL. But that's France...what else is new?
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It was their own fault. Their immigration policies were much too liberal ;D
:ROFL:
Classic!!!
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(http://m5.paperblog.com/i/64/648883/putin-obama-cartoons-fill-the-internet-L-Uik3H0.jpeg)
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My question to FT and others who hold his belief is what did he do for his freedom? Why does he deserve it and not the Venezuelan, the Ukrainian, Arab and Zimbawan? What has he done to protect for others?
The one good argument he hasn't made but Laura Ingraham made in shutting down Paul Wolfowitz is was that we spent $ 2 trillion and under 10,000 Americans dead, thousand more wounded and what do we have to show for it?
We mismanage our relationships with other nations. But indifference and neutrality always favors the oppressors. Glad to see more people have come around to my view.
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I don't know if you are either dumb, a provocateur or just plain angry. You posted this just above this one:
If Putin sees an opening somewhere in eastern Ukraine, he will send in the tanks and the army. That much everyone knows, NOW. There is a very high risk of world war if he does this.
Putin has shown his cards, they are on the table. Please show some decency and don't take this as a platform for your passive-aggressive behavior.
Passive aggressive behavior? "Dumb, a provocateur or angry"? It sounds to me like it is becoming ‘label time’ for you yet again. I, and others have formed different opinions than you, but if that is considered ‘passive aggressive’ behavior then I shall live with that label and you will have to live with reading opinions that drive you to the point of name-calling I guess.
Perhaps you are not capable of exchanging opinions without turning it into ‘label time’
Nothing YOU have said (which wasn’t much) has changed my belief that Putin has taken what he wants already…sure if Ukraine was to essentially ‘give’ more than Russia might take it, but I don’t think they intended to make another aggressive move.
My question to FT and others who hold his belief is what did he do for his freedom? Why does he deserve it and not the Venezuelan, the Ukrainian, Arab and Zimbawan? What has he done to protect for others?
Relevance? Your question only makes sense to somebody who actually thinks he/she deserves freedom more than another….I don’t think any person born deserves freedom any more than anybody else. I also don't think the onus of fighting is on this nation, nor do I think it is in the best interests of Ukraine to fight under the circumstances of what has happened. I don't think very many people on the board agree with your position or mine, but that doesn't mean much.
Fathertime! [size=78%] [/size]
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Yes, you went out on a limb, and the limb just broke. Why would the West want Ukraine to fight? Russia would crush Ukraine quickly and take over the entire country.
Look at the map. With major forces massed both on Ukraine's eastern border and in Crimea, the Russian army would encircle Ukraine's army quickly (in the textbook manner the Soviet army defeated the Nazis at Stalingrad).
War would spook Europe, ending the economic recovery now underway in Europe. America gains nothing.
Instead of fighting, why not help the "new" Ukraine embark on a democratic, pro-western path. The G7 (G8 less Russia) is now discussing various forms of aid. If Ukraine's new government can reduce corruption, the country could blossom. The end result in 10-20 years is a western dynamo on Russia's borders.
I stand behind your bolded statement four-square. IMO that is where the energy should be going. Ukraine can win and so can Russia and that is best for the world as far as I can see.
[/size]Fathertime! [size=78%][/size][size=78%] [/size]
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...The G7 (G8 less Russia) is now discussing various forms of aid. If Ukraine's new government can reduce corruption, the country could blossom. The end result in 10-20 years is a western dynamo on Russia's borders....
Speaking of democracy and freedom, the meeting is such a wonderful opportunity for President Obama, and by extension, the free world.
It isn't everyday one can put the faces of people all sitting in the same room one were wire-tapping not too long ago.
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I just read that USA has decided to NOT impose more sanctions if Russia doesn't go any further into Ukraine....Obozo will take some heat but I like that policy, I think it is reasonable. Hopefully Russia leaves it at that as well and the world moves on.
http://news.yahoo.com/west-russia-signal-line-drawn-ukraine-crisis-112326995--sector.html (http://news.yahoo.com/west-russia-signal-line-drawn-ukraine-crisis-112326995--sector.html)
Fathertime!
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Whatever the case this topic was derailed so I can make it more informative, at least.
Some statistics concerning the takeover of Crimea from Ukranian troops. Alltogether about 22,000 ukrainian military were stationed in Crimea, roughly 5,000 of them are civilians at jobs in army. About 4,000 decided to evacuate from Crimea, some of them will leave the service. The rest will continue the service in the Russian army.
One of best combat units of Ukranian army was battalion of marines in Feodosia, 600 men. 450 of them decided to stay in Crimea and take oath to Russia, 150 has evacuated to continue service in Ukraine. Among officers there is the following ratio: 1/3 moved out of Crimea, 2/3 stayed.
In the beginning of conflict rear admiral Denis Berezovsky was made head of Ukraine's navy, and next day he has sworn allegiance to the separatist Crimea region. Now he is appointed as the new Russian Black Sea Fleet deputy commander.
Couple days ago Russian troops have stormed a Ukrainian Belbek airbase, near Sevastopol, throwing stun grenades and firing automatic weapons in the air. Photos of battlefield:
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/484155/9302023/9302023_original.jpg)
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/484155/9302634/9302634_original.jpg)
A few Ukranian corvets were seized by Crimean self-defence militia:
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/484155/9284968/9284968_original.jpg)
Main problem for Ukranian military in Crimea was how to come over to Russia side not risking criminal prosecution from Ukraine. So they're waiting storms which happened to be rather peaceful.
The following clip reflects the russian view on the events:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLLRCMYy2Fc
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Perhaps Belvis,
You can tell us what happened to the Colonel in charge of the Air Base? I'm sure he is being held for tea in a Russian brothel, entertained by RussBabes.
You are a real piece of work.
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This post is evidence of Russian scum. Don't worry. Scum is a transnational phenomena. We have American scum as well. Most of them live in DC.
Belvis, I talk to many Russians just like you everyday on twitter and vk. Doing no deed, unless ordered by their Kremlin masters, saying no words unless elicited from their Kremlin masters, Thinking no thoughts except those born in minds of mobsters, crooks and thieves. You ape the words of truthers. You bring up age old grievances like Kosovo. You never forgive. You have no compassion. You have no sense of perspective, no shame or decency. Men and (women) like you cannot be reasoned with. You must be crushed.
My prediction? By the end of this year, you and your kind will be crushed and it is these meek, lowly, but chaste and stout hearted Ukrainians that will crush you. You will not have your defensive war with America like you want like Putin wants - instead Putin will get his wish. Russia's borders will be re-drawn and you and your country will cease to exist.
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You can tell us what happened to the Colonel in charge of the Air Base? I'm sure he is being held for tea in a Russian brothel, entertained by RussBabes.
Unfortunately, I can't support your fantasy, Russian army regulations do not make provisions for brothels. But this man will be OK and for sure get general rank in Ukranian army soon.
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My prediction? By the end of this year, you and your kind will be crushed and it is these meek, lowly, but chaste and stout hearted Ukrainians that will crush you. You will not have your defensive war with America like you want like Putin wants - instead Putin will get his wish. Russia's borders will be re-drawn and you and your country will cease to exist.
Then you'll be satisfied and your soul get a peace at last. No problem from my side.
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I just read that USA has decided to NOT impose more sanctions if Russia doesn't go any further into Ukraine....Obozo will take some heat but I like that policy, I think it is reasonable. Hopefully Russia leaves it at that as well and the world moves on...
I do, too. I've always said regarding this silly crisis...
The Kiev coup was both illegitimate and unconstitutional. Crimea is/was an autonomous republic and is entitled to make its own self-determination at any time.
Ukraine wanted to lean towards western influence - they got it. They are now a member of the EU.
Crimea voted to be part of Russia, they got it. They are now under Russian Federation dominion.
The European contingent got what they wanted - no further economic escalation with Russia and a 'new' member to lump into their tax system.
Obama got what he wanted by switching the media focus less on Obamacare. He also (I hope) came to realize what it's really like to do poli-business with our European partners, especially when dealing with Russia.
Win/win for everyone and a very nicely packaged 'exit strategy'.
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Except that none of this is rational. Its all emotion. If it was rational Putin would not have invaded in the first place. Putin has lost control of Ukraine and is losing control of Crimea. He will invade and when he does, will you two patriots make excuses for Putin then?
Its good to see these clowns unmasked.
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Whatever the case this topic was derailed so I can make it more informative, at least.
Thanks. I appreciated it. Seriously.
One of best combat units of Ukranian army was battalion of marines in Feodosia, 600 men. 450 of them decided to stay in Crimea and take oath to Russia, 150 has evacuated to continue service in Ukraine.
Interesting. Effectively 75% voted to stay, surrendering their Ukrainian citizenship and becoming Russian citizens. Evidently military units are drawn from nearby communities and not from the entire nation.
Couple days ago Russian troops have stormed a Ukrainian Belbek airbase, near Sevastopol, throwing stun grenades and firing automatic weapons in the air. .........
Russian troops?! You were not reading the Putin announcements. Ah, you later got it right.
A few Ukranian corvets were seized by Crimean self-defence militia:
Be careful Belvis, somebody could be watching you.
Question: Does Russia pay Ukraine for the seized ships? I understand that the Ukrainian Navy now possesses only one ship.
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Except that none of this is rational. Its all emotion. If it was rational Putin would not have invaded in the first place. Putin has lost control of Ukraine and is losing control of Crimea. He will invade and when he does, will you two patriots make excuses for Putin then?
Its good to see these clowns unmasked.
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I just read that USA has decided to NOT impose more sanctions if Russia doesn't go any further into Ukraine....Obozo will take some heat but I like that policy, I think it is reasonable. Hopefully Russia leaves it at that as well and the world moves on.
Yes, the "slap on the wrist" and perhaps a wink from Obama. Although Obama did step up the rhetoric today, insulting Russia by calling it a "regional power acting out of weakness." A good one. Obama must have stole that one-liner from the British attending the G7 meeting.
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Ukraine wanted to lean towards western influence - they got it. They are now a member of the EU.
The Association Agreement is a big first step in that direction, yet Ukraine is a long way from being admitted to the EU as a member state. The EU had problems with little Greece with one tenth the problems of Ukraine. And Turkey has been in the wings for a long time. Nevertheless, Ukraine's neighbors Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania are full members.
Before membership in the EU, Ukraine must drastically reduce corruption plus accomplish several other goals. Such will be a huge task with much conflict because those with money and power are the most corrupt and the least receptive to change (see Haiti).
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Except that none of this is rational. Its all emotion. If it was rational Putin would not have invaded in the first place. Putin has lost control of Ukraine and is losing control of Crimea. He will invade and when he does, will you two patriots make excuses for Putin then?
Its good to see these clowns unmasked.
The position you have been taking was never rational, it has been based on emotion. Obama has made the right call, that is precisely why he was a far better choice then McCain.
I do not want to be labeled as a patriot if that means I have to agree to commit acts of war for another country's benefit. You have made many absolute predictions recently, and I don't suspect much or any will come to pass.
If Russia commits an act of aggression going forward then we can react how we want. My belief remains Russia has their warm weather ports and that was the critical element for them. Because of Obama's intelligent/level headed decision (assuming it holds), everybody should win. From my perspective, this is one of his best moments, although all he will receive is scorn for it.
Fathertime!
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Brother-in-law (along with, I would surmise, every other fighting aged male in Ukraine) received a notice to prepare for recall and deployment. If I understood this correctly, this is preparation only at this point rather than mobilization. He is now on what would be like a stand-by status with orders to report within two hours of further notification.
Anyone know more about this recall? Hopefully only precautionary.
Step-brother, 24 yo, have been recalled already for some time, been stationed locally and been going through training. Been allowed to visit home last weekend, deployed this morning (location unknown at this moment).
Mum says many others (family friends/acquaintances) already recalled and/or deployed. Recall is for men within age from 20 to 50 yo.
What will the Ukrainian government give those men for their training? Pitchforks?
Don't know about all 'those men' but my brother received grenade launcher among many other things.
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Whatever the case this topic was derailed so I can make it more informative, at least.
I agree with Gator - thanks for a rational response.
Some statistics concerning the takeover of Crimea from Ukranian troops. Alltogether about 22,000 ukrainian military were stationed in Crimea, roughly 5,000 of them are civilians at jobs in army. About 4,000 decided to evacuate from Crimea, some of them will leave the service. The rest will continue the service in the Russian army.
One of best combat units of Ukranian army was battalion of marines in Feodosia, 600 men. 450 of them decided to stay in Crimea and take oath to Russia, 150 has evacuated to continue service in Ukraine. Among officers there is the following ratio: 1/3 moved out of Crimea, 2/3 stayed.
Belvis, that's an over-simplification. I have no problem with your numbers, but to say that they "decided to evacuate" is stretching the truth - they had absolutely no alternative if they wished to stay alive or free from a military prison. Again, as I posted earlier, many of these people will be leaving an area where they have lived all their lives, simply because your leader has decided that annexing Crimea is the easiest invasion that the world has seen in recent years. It also seems that the percentage of those staying is nowhere near the 93% (or whatever the final mangled figure was) who allegedly voted "Yes" to secession in the referendum.
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Because of Obama's intelligent/level headed decision (assuming it holds), everybody should win. From my perspective, this is one of his best moments, although all he will receive is scorn for it.
When Putin told Obama he wasn't going into Ukraine, Obama was fooled plain and simple. Obama has intelligence agencies and could see troop movements yet Obama didn't threaten Putin with anything then.
If Obama gets fooled again, will Obama have another best moment to top this one? If an American President best moments only come after actions that hurt American interests, that's nothing to be proud about.
It's clear, what happened in Crimea didn't stay in Crimea. It had a rippling effect. From the world's perspective, Obama embarrassed America and showed weakness to our enemies which will make it harder to deal with Iran and North Korea, not to mention many other things. No other nation has claimed America showed strength. Only Obama and American liberals have said Obama showed strength and Putin is acting out of weakness. Our allies in Eastern Europe are living in fear, asking for meetings NOW, and begging for America's troops to be in their countries to hold training exercises. If what recently happened is Obama's best moment, the world has lots to worry about.
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From the world's perspective, Obama embarrassed America and showed weakness to our enemies which will make it harder to deal with Iran and North Korea, not to mention many other things. No other nation has claimed America showed strength.
But we all know that Russians respect those who show restraint.
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Step-brother, 24 yo, have been recalled already for some time, been stationed locally and been going through training. Been allowed to visit home last weekend, deployed this morning (location unknown at this moment).
Mum says many others (family friends/acquaintances) already recalled and/or deployed. Recall is for men within age from 20 to 50 yo.
Don't know about all 'those men' but my brother received grenade launcher among many other things.
MISS A ,
we are in a similar position with family there ,
i hope my thoughts/posts on the next move by mr putin are wrong , way wrong ,
like you many of us hope and pray for the safety of our familys and loved ones who are getting caught up in all this very unneccessary aggression from russia
ukraine should be free to resolve their own internal issues ,their good people dont deserve this
SX
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When Putin told Obama he wasn't going into Ukraine, Obama was fooled plain and simple. Obama has intelligence agencies and could see troop movements yet Obama didn't threaten Putin with anything then.
If Obama gets fooled again, will Obama have another best moment to top this one? If an American President best moments only come after actions that hurt American interests, that's nothing to be proud about.
It's clear, what happened in Crimea didn't stay in Crimea. It had a rippling effect. From the world's perspective, Obama embarrassed America and showed weakness to our enemies which will make it harder to deal with Iran and North Korea, not to mention many other things. No other nation has claimed America showed strength. Only Obama and American liberals have said Obama showed strength and Putin is acting out of weakness. Our allies in Eastern Europe are living in fear, asking for meetings NOW, and begging for America's troops to be in their countries to hold training exercises. If what recently happened is Obama's best moment, the world has lots to worry about.
That is a pretty good post Billy.
It's like the rest of this administrations action for the past 5 years. If they tell that lie long enough and loud enough, they'll have others believing it too.
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The position you have been taking was never rational, it has been based on emotion. Obama has made the right call, that is precisely why he was a far better choice then McCain.
I do not want to be labeled as a patriot if that means I have to agree to commit acts of war for another country's benefit. You have made many absolute predictions recently, and I don't suspect much or any will come to pass.
If Russia commits an act of aggression going forward then we can react how we want. My belief remains Russia has their warm weather ports and that was the critical element for them. Because of Obama's intelligent/level headed decision (assuming it holds), everybody should win. From my perspective, this is one of his best moments, although all he will receive is scorn for it.
Fathertime!
You have made many popular predictions that have been wrong. I predicted these protests would be a revolution, that Yanuk was toast and that Pooty would invade Ukraine by seizing Crimea. My track record is pretty good stacked against yours.
You are part of the problem - more egregious than Belvis. Belvis gets Rusky propo and can't see behind his own nationalism. You and others your own hatred for your own country. I can accept anti-Americanism intellectually but when you use that to stop people - good people - who just want to help themselves, that kind morality deserves contempt.
I criticize jone for being weak and squishy and JayH for not going the full measure but at least they see this for what it is. If you have any decency left in you, have some compassion. You said it yourself, if you did not deserve this gift for freedom. If that is still true for you then do something to protect it and if you can't do that - GET OUT OF THE WAY.
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You have made many popular predictions that have been wrong. I predicted these protests would be a revolution, that Yanuk was toast and that Pooty would invade Ukraine by seizing Crimea. My track record is pretty good stacked against yours.
You are part of the problem - more egregious than Belvis. Belvis gets Rusky propo and can't see behind his own nationalism. You and others your own hatred for your own country. I can accept anti-Americanism intellectually but when you use that to stop people - good people - who just want to help themselves, that kind morality deserves contempt.
I criticize jone for being weak and squishy and JayH for not going the full measure but at least they see this for what it is. If you have any decency left in you, have some compassion. You said it yourself, if you did not deserve this gift for freedom. If that is still true for you then do something to protect it and if you can't do that - GET OUT OF THE WAY.
The main position I’ve taken is that Russia is not interested in other parts of Ukraine, while many others are convinced he is crazy or going to march all over the world like Hitler. Be that as it may, I am not interested in competing over ‘predictions’ Your rationale has been lacking (even eye-rolling) throughout your many ‘predictions’. As much as you self-promote, I don’t agree that your ‘track record’ is very good overall. I find that your ‘predictions’ going forward get more ridiculous each day…but that is fine, you are entitled to make them…
If you qualify compassion as going to war over CRIMEA, then I don’t have nor want any ‘compassion’. If you truly believe in being a policeman for the world, maybe you should go and fight for Ukraine, In your own name but not in the rest of ours. (I won’t get in your way) Don’t forget to ask the leadership over there if they would even like you to participate.
As far as I’m concerned YOU would be a part of the problem (not the solution), and thankfully are not able to inflict your will onto our leaders. You have shown hatred for your own country by trying to get us sucked into a war/conflict we don’t belong in, so you can say ‘Yeah I’m right’. Thankfully there have been enough of us around to force the situation to be solved in a reasonably peaceful way, given the circumstances. In my opinion YOU have never seen this situation for what it is. In addition I'm noticing that you are actually conjuring things up and stating them as facts and have lost the respectful tone that you started out with.
Fathertime!
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When Putin told Obama he wasn't going into Ukraine, Obama was fooled plain and simple. Obama has intelligence agencies and could see troop movements yet Obama didn't threaten Putin with anything then.
If Obama gets fooled again, will Obama have another best moment to top this one? If an American President best moments only come after actions that hurt American interests, that's nothing to be proud about.
It's clear, what happened in Crimea didn't stay in Crimea. It had a rippling effect. From the world's perspective, Obama embarrassed America and showed weakness to our enemies which will make it harder to deal with Iran and North Korea, not to mention many other things. No other nation has claimed America showed strength. Only Obama and American liberals have said Obama showed strength and Putin is acting out of weakness. Our allies in Eastern Europe are living in fear, asking for meetings NOW, and begging for America's troops to be in their countries to hold training exercises. If what recently happened is Obama's best moment, the world has lots to worry about.
Well BillyB, I don't know what was said between Obama and Putin before this all went down. I just feel given the circumstances, Obama made a good move by deescalating today. If this ends relatively peacefully, all the players might wind up winning. Ripple effects, maybe so.
Fathertime!
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ft,
while i certainly hope my posts are wrong , im not the only one to think putin still has food on the table to eat
link below with good reasoned points on why it might happen
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/25/russia_s_window_of_opportunity_in_ukraine
it is interesting reading for the strategists,,
SX
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ft,
while i certainly hope my posts are wrong , im not the only one to think putin still has food on the table to eat
link below with good reasoned points on why it might happen
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/25/russia_s_window_of_opportunity_in_ukraine (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/25/russia_s_window_of_opportunity_in_ukraine)
it is interesting reading for the strategists,,
SX
hey sx...interesting article,,,,I see the case for russia to invade...I also think there is a strong one for them to stop...the article states they would need to do it quickly...so we shall find out soon enough if the author is right on that count.
Fathertime!
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I just feel given the circumstances, Obama made a good move by deescalating today. If this ends relatively peacefully, all the players might wind up winning. Ripple effects, maybe so.
Hey Fathertime, I'm not offended by your opinions as some people are. You had to defend your views but you are actually in the majority. Most of Western Europe and Americans don't want Obama to do anything more than he is doing now. Obama governs based off public opinion but that doesn't mean he's always right. If Obama wanted to do more, he would need to educate people on the reasons he's acting in an aggressive manner to protect America's interest elsewhere that provides long term benefits.
In history, most Americans have tried to persuade presidents from getting involved in other nation's problems. I've criticized FDR for being slow getting America into WWII but at the time, the American public didn't want to get involved in another European war. To FDR's credit, he sold Americans on why he's sending troops there. He was right. The majority of Americans were wrong. It's human nature to not want to put ourselves at risk when the risk is someone else's.
The ripple effect of Crimea is easily seen from the reactions of our Eastern European allies to right here at this forum. Members and members families are living in fear. Even if Putin doesn't proceed further as you've predicted, it's no reason to celebrate. These people will be living with some level of fear for many years to come. If your friends and family were living in fear, as the head of your household and as a reliable friend, you have an obligation to provide a safe environment for them and eliminate the cause of the fear. I actually respect Putin for taking care of Russian citizens in Crimea and protecting Russia's interest. I don't want war with Russia but I do want to provide a safe environment for our friends in Eastern Europe and Ukraine and I wished Obama sent troops there and made a statement that we really don't want you to advance anymore instead of just verbally threating "costs". It would then be up to Russia if they want a war. Our friends and family living over there can't experience true freedom if they are living in fear. Ukraine must make many changes to be a reliable partner but there are people there that want to make those changes and they need our help just as America needed France's help to get out from under the British Empire. Being patriotic and having the spirit to fight gets you only so far. Pitchforks don't do well against the British Empire's cannons and grenade launchers don't do well against Russian tanks.
Weeks ago Obama said he will get tough with Russia if they get involved with Crimea. Obama now has now surrendered Crimea to Russia and says he will get tough with Russia if they proceed further than Crimea. Obama lied the first time, why should anybody believe he'll mean what he says now? Obama has earned a reputation of being soft. Russia, Iran, North Korea, China and our friends understand this. Yes, it's easy to believe the best road is taking the road that is least confrontational but it may be the road that leads to the most destruction if it enables our enemies.
Did you see those two videos I provided for JayH earlier? It kind of amazes me some of the things Ronald Reagan said many years ago that could be applied here today. Reagan was hard on the Soviets yet after the Cold War ended, our enemies respected befriended him. He's the man who supported Afghanistan to push back the Soviets. He's the man who punished Ghaddafi multiple times. He's the man who sent the aircraft carrier Yorktown to enforce international boundaries and law at sea in whynotme's video that showed a Russian ship ramming it. America has acted as the world's policeman many times but if not us, who? Many of us speed on highways. Without enforcement, things get way out of control. Drivers will push their limit at speed, nations will push their borders. No surprises there but there has to be law and someone has to enforce those laws. You don't want America to be the world's policeman and the UN is incapable of that position since countries have differing opinions and veto rights to deny actions against themselves or friends. In the absence of law and it's enforcement, there's anarchy. Who do you think is best for the job?
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ft,
while i certainly hope my posts are wrong , im not the only one to think putin still has food on the table to eat
link below with good reasoned points on why it might happen
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/25/russia_s_window_of_opportunity_in_ukraine
it is interesting reading for the strategists,,
SX
Interesting hypothesis. Appears someone put much more thought into it than I but, my conclusion is the same. I'm confident Kiev is Putins goal. I don't see anything stopping him either
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The main position I’ve taken is that Russia is not interested in other parts of Ukraine, while many others are convinced he is crazy or going to march all over the world like Hitler. Be that as it may, I am not interested in competing over ‘predictions’ Your rationale has been lacking (even eye-rolling) throughout your many ‘predictions’. As much as you self-promote, I don’t agree that your ‘track record’ is very good overall. I find that your ‘predictions’ going forward get more ridiculous each day…but that is fine, you are entitled to make them…
If you qualify compassion as going to war over CRIMEA, then I don’t have nor want any ‘compassion’. If you truly believe in being a policeman for the world, maybe you should go and fight for Ukraine, In your own name but not in the rest of ours. (I won’t get in your way) Don’t forget to ask the leadership over there if they would even like you to participate.
As far as I’m concerned YOU would be a part of the problem (not the solution), and thankfully are not able to inflict your will onto our leaders. You have shown hatred for your own country by trying to get us sucked into a war/conflict we don’t belong in, so you can say ‘Yeah I’m right’. Thankfully there have been enough of us around to force the situation to be solved in a reasonably peaceful way, given the circumstances. In my opinion YOU have never seen this situation for what it is. In addition I'm noticing that you are actually conjuring things up and stating them as facts and have lost the respectful tone that you started out with.
Fathertime!
Your position is immoral. Others and I have demonstrated this over and over again. Your pride has blinded you to this.
During the Syria crisis, you excoriated this president and now you are singing his praises. So please don't preach to me about ideological consistency. But now as we retreat, the world seems to go up in smoke. You and Ron Paul should high five each other. Smoke a joint and talk about building 7.
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Interesting hypothesis. Appears someone put much more thought into it than I but, my conclusion is the same. I'm confident Kiev is Putins goal. I don't see anything stopping him either
agree !
all ukraine at present wont cost him much , or at least it is looking that way
at the very least he wants/needs the s/east of ukraine across to moldova to link all the pieces together ,
SX
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This idea that everyone agrees with FT is false. Most Americans don't like Obama's weak foriegn policy. They agree with Palin, McCain and Romney, that America should be strong and stand for freedom and not bending over for Putin like FT & the other Putinistas want to do.
How a man can sit there and do nothing while one man robs another is not to be cuddled and congratulated for his inaction. He should be shamed for that kind of man has no honor.
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Hey Fathertime, I'm not offended by your opinions as some people are. You had to defend your views but you are actually in the majority. Most of Western Europe and Americans don't want Obama to do anything more than he is doing now.
Weeks ago Obama said he will get tough with Russia if they get involved with Crimea. Obama now has now surrendered Crimea to Russia and says he will get tough with Russia if they proceed further than Crimea. Obama lied the first time, why should anybody believe he'll mean what he says now? Obama has earned a reputation of being soft. Russia, Iran, North Korea, China and our friends understand this. Yes, it's easy to believe the best road is taking the road that is least confrontational but it may be the road that leads to the most destruction if it enables our enemies.
Hey Billy,
Yeah I agree that most people here don't want us to get involved...for better or for worse. For me, one of the bottom lines is that I believe that most of the people in Crimea are happy about being annexed by Russia. Another bottom line is that Russia feels those ports are critical for them, and I can understand their position. Looking at the totality of the circumstances, I can see exactly why they made the move they did. Given all this, I'm convinced that Russia would truly fight so this is not a fight we need at this time when it can be avoided. Everybody knows there could come a point where a fight may not be avoidable, but I don't see us being anywhere near that point. I see very little harm in letting things play out for a while, but I see the potential for a great deal of harm if we jump the gun.
Fathertime!
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Your position is immoral. Others and I have demonstrated this over and over again. Your pride has blinded you to this.
During the Syria crisis, you excoriated this president and now you are singing his praises. So please don't preach to me about ideological consistency. But now as we retreat, the world seems to go up in smoke. You and Ron Paul should high five each other. Smoke a joint and talk about building 7.
You are the preacher; I’m the guy rolling the eyes at the silliness. I’ve decided that your position is immoral and based on a false pride, nothing more. My position has been consistent in both Syria and Ukraine, as I’m against us intervening in both places, for different reasons. Your attempts to lump yourself in with everybody else is laughable and desperate. Don’t you feel you can stand by yourself as others have? Others have made good arguments; you moan that anybody would take a different position. I continue to believe Russia is not moving any further unless they are attacked by an outside force. I’m glad Obama has had a steady enough hand to see this for what it is, a nervous nelly like you would have set the world afire by now. Doesn’t that make you an immoral moralist? If you had any courage you would be over there doing something to ‘right’ the situation you feel SO strongly about, instead of trying to make everybody carry your water for you.
Until you change your attempts at denigration and attitude towards differing opinions, I will no longer find any need to take you or your views seriously. You are now merely a loud, attention-seeking clown.
Fathertime!
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This idea that everyone agrees with FT is false. Most Americans don't like Obama's weak foriegn policy.
Check the polls LT, most Americans think like Fathertime and they don't want any serious involvement in Ukraine. You are correct that Americans don't like the way Obama handled the crisis in Crimea which embarrassed this nation. His approval ratings are down. He failed to do what the majority wanted and project strength at the same time.
Anybody watch Obama speak in Europe recently? He looks exhausted. Busy guy with lots of fires to put out which tells me, although Crimea is over, our allies won't let him rest easy.
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I continue to be amazed how blind some choose to be about Russian intentions. Why would there be 100,000+ troops, 500 and now 700+ tanks, 240+ attack helicopters in place? This is a massive force and it has massive logistical support as well as an unknown number of attack aircraft ready to go.
Stop being so blind to the potential slaughter of innocent Ukrainians who have done nothing to Russia or Russians.The west can stop this in it's tracks-- prior to a Russian advance by simply making it clear they are going to wade into it.No one is asking for a task force to retrieve the Crimea( not at this stage anyway) -- just a commitment from the west will stabilise the current situation.
Putin will not fight the west-he thinks his tanks are going to roll in and meet little effective resistence--it is typical bully.
Some of you here have at least stopped saying Ukrainians will not fight their Russian brothers-- but it has become abundantly clear that they will fight--but they need help and should not be left alone.
Another point that has arisen-- about US being the worlds policeman-- one of the big pushes of the eu was to reduce military spending and create a cooperative military. Combined that makes a substantial force-- but it relies on all the members with common interests to chip in and do their part in a crisis. This is a crisis now.
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons,gave up substantial weapons,munitions,and had reduced the size of its military. All that was based on the concept of being a good world citizen and the treaties in place that supported Ukraines borders .
The US is integral in any action around the world to assist with the defence of those with like beliefs and intentions--it is not reasonable or sensible to ignore that obligation.
As far as what a majority would vote for in the US-- well--once elected to higher office a major point is that you are there to lead--to do what is right and not be guided by short term political considerations-there is not time to conduct a plebiscite on every issue.
Finally-- I urge all of you to try and help avoid this catastrophe looming- do what you can.
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Check the polls LT, most Americans think like Fathertime and they don't want any serious involvement in Ukraine. You are correct that Americans don't like the way Obama handled the crisis in Crimea which embarrassed this nation. His approval ratings are down. He failed to do what the majority wanted and project strength at the same time.
Anybody watch Obama speak in Europe recently? He looks exhausted. Busy guy with lots of fires to put out which tells me, although Crimea is over, our allies won't let him rest easy.
Your kidding? Brittian signed the same Budapest Memorandum the U.S. did and they have even less guts than Obama. Neither nation honored the agreement to protect Ukraine's sovereignty. Both nations should be embarrassed. Who would believe either nation in the future?
Hopefully the Democratic Party will take a huge dump in the toilet this coming November. I am not that fond of the Republican Party either, but I think they would have at least sent military hardware to allow Ukraine to have weapons to protect their borders and country from Russian invasion.
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father time For me, one of the bottom lines is that I believe that most of the people in Crimea are happy about being annexed by Russia.
id say thats not anywhere near true , the latest info/news coming out of crimea and the'' referendum'' it had is showing more like less than 50% of people voted let alone agreed/happy with the outcome , many where scared to dissent
fathertime Another bottom line is that Russia feels those ports are critical for them, and I can understand their position.
that bottom line they already had signed up with ukraine until 2024,
in the international forum if they had worries it should be negotiated , thats what is the expected norm , not invasions to have your way
calmissile Brittian signed the same Budapest Memorandum the U.S. did and they have even less guts than Obama. Neither nation honored the agreement to protect Ukraine's sovereignty. Both nations should be embarrassed.
id agree , it would seem mr putin has read his tea leaves correctly , the EU/US/NATO are at this stage prepared to let ukraine go it alone , and take it chances rather than sacrifice their popularity at home and their economies , .... piss poor >:(
calmissile . would believe either nation in the future?
yep exactly , not just them but any country from here on in if this passes , will know , bottom line your on your own , all bets are off, boost your own defence , however you can ;)
all else is pure lip service when it comes to the crunch
sad reflection on our current leaders imho ,
SX
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Your kidding?
To be specific, it's our East European allies that won't let Obama rest easy.
Who would believe either nation in the future?
Not President Karzai of Afghanistan. I'm not a fan of his but he had much better relations with Bush. Obama didn't call the guy in over a year and let the relationship deteriorate. Karzai recently announced that he supports Russia's recent actions. It's possible Obama not only allowed Russia to take Crimea, he gave them Afghanistan too. What will Obama give up next? The internet? Yeah, he's considering giving internet control to a world body right now since he doesn't trust America to dictate free speech. Let's let China have a say on what we're allowed to read on the internet. There are nations that are on the fence of who to align themselves with. If America isn't reliable and trustworthy, those nations will choose to align themselves with the bad boys since those guys mean what they say.
Obama said if Syria uses chemical weapons, he'd use military action against them. Obama didn't keep his word. He made an agreement to have Syria give up their weapons. Syria has duped Obama and not done that completely and is dragging their feet but Obama doesn't care to enforcing the rules. Obama has shown weakness which empowers our adversaries.
Obama has lifted the sanctions on Iran. What did we get in return? Nothing. Obama has cancelled the promised missile defense system in Poland and Czech Republic. What did Russia give us in return for doing that? Nothing. Obama is currently reducing the size of our military at a time when Russia and China is making significant jumps in military spending. It's safe to say Obama truly believes in equality. Someday America won't be capable of being the world's policeman. Will the world become a more peaceful place?
Why would there be 100,000+ troops, 500 and now 700+ tanks, 240+ attack helicopters in place? This is a massive force and it has massive logistical support as well as an unknown number of attack aircraft ready to go.
Maybe Putin just wants to waste taxpayers money moving all that stuff over there for show?
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Effectively 75% voted to stay, surrendering their Ukrainian citizenship and becoming Russian citizens. Evidently military units are drawn from nearby communities and not from the entire nation.
Logic in action. You're right, ukrainian law stipulates draft local men serve in their regions.
Russian troops?! You were not reading the Putin announcements. Ah, you later got it right.
Yep, russian troops are called "green little men" in Ukraine and "polite men" in Crimea. However when I told about Crimean self-defence militia it was not a fault. Many active retirees from Soviet military and Russian fleet live in Crimea.
Question: Does Russia pay Ukraine for the seized ships? I understand that the Ukrainian Navy now possesses only one ship.
That's the question. Negotiations are needed. But to be honest these seized ships have little value as combat ships because all of them were built in SU and considered being outdated.
Belvis, that's an over-simplification. I have no problem with your numbers, but to say that they "decided to evacuate" is stretching the truth - they had absolutely no alternative if they wished to stay alive or free from a military prison.
I don't get it. Military prison in Ukraine is a real danger for those who turned themselves under russian flags. Some guys will cancel army contract and continue to live in Crimea. Crimean authorities and Russian military persecute armed men at Crimea and show no interest in them after they are out of bases in civilian cloth.
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I criticize jone for being weak and squishy and JayH for not going the full measure but at least they see this for what it is.
Full measure? I did say if it was my decision I would sweep the Russians into the sea -not sure where else that could go.Would I start a nuclear attack on Russia-no- I would not pre-empt that.
Would I defend Ukraine with all the resources available to the west- unequivocally.
The problem is right now that i do not want to see Ukrainians losing their lives needlessly-- and in a hopeless battle - if it comes to an invasion the west must help them.Would I personally start shooting people on the Crimea at this minute- No- right now it is most important to stabilise Ukraine and get plans moving for the future-including alignments to help in the future.Giving Putin any provocation to invade-- that would be a mistake right now. Ukraine has the international high moral ground -they need to keep it.
Obama called Russia a second rate power earlier today-- we need to hear more of that talk to make it clear to Putin that the rest of the world is contemptuous of Putin and Russia.
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Check the polls LT, most Americans think like Fathertime and they don't want any serious involvement in Ukraine. You are correct that Americans don't like the way Obama handled the crisis in Crimea which embarrassed this nation. His approval ratings are down. He failed to do what the majority wanted and project strength at the same time.
Anybody watch Obama speak in Europe recently? He looks exhausted. Busy guy with lots of fires to put out which tells me, although Crimea is over, our allies won't let him rest easy.
I don't care how tired he looks. He works for us. He wanted the job and lied, cheated and stole to get the job. If he is tired, tell him not to vacation as much. How really needs a 900 vehicle entourage?
BillyB, you check the polls 59% oppose military cuts. Sweden is thinking of joining NATO. Canada who also shares a Russian border is rethinking its defense cuts. We fought 2 World Wars and 1 Cold War for European Security. We have a glimpse of Father time's wet dream of world without the US and looks worse than a Cold War Holocaust as you would have multiple nuregional nuclear wars raging.
Despite the rosy assessments of the Putin shills like FT and GQB that gloss over the long term consequences of Cameron-Obama in failing to adhere to the Budapest Memorandum. Russia must be kicked off the Security Council, must be partitioned and must be stopped. They are as Tara's Kuzio said: Rwanda with nukes. Now the world is held hostage by the whims of this mafia state. Every day we wake up not wondering what Obama will do. We know he will do: boys, coke and hurt his own people. We wonder what this KGB thug will do next. GQB and FT may be comfortable with that reality after their long labors and scarafices fighting for democracy and liberty. But I am not.
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JayH, the only way Russia will leave the Crimea is by force. The only way to stop Russia is to force it. Whether we do it, or Ukraine does it, that is what needs to be done. That is the full measure. Putin through Kiselov and Rogozin said he is willing to use nukes to get what he wants. How do you stop such men? More force. Despite what the wankers say, that's always how the world works and despite all our flaws, we are still the best hope the world has at lasting peace.
Neoconservativism is back FT.
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I don't get it. Military prison in Ukraine is a real danger for those who turned themselves under russian flags. Some guys will cancel army contract and continue to live in Crimea. Crimean authorities and Russian military persecute armed men at Crimea and show no interest in them after they are out of bases in civilian cloth.
You're missing, or misinterpreting my point - the loyal Ukrainian troops in Crimea would quite likely end up in a Russian military prison if they didn't go to the mainland. And, as you say, the vast majority of the Ukrainian troops in Crimea are locals - why should they have to leave their homes just because the dictator next door wants their part of the country? You can bet many of those who have decided to become turncoats and join the Russian Army/Navy/Air Force are doing so more out of fear for their families than because they truly believe in the great Russian Bear.
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You're missing, or misinterpreting my point - the loyal Ukrainian troops in Crimea would quite likely end up in a Russian military prison if they didn't go to the mainland. And, as you say, the vast majority of the Ukrainian troops in Crimea are locals - why should they have to leave their homes just because the dictator next door wants their part of the country? You can bet many of those who have decided to become turncoats and join the Russian Army/Navy/Air Force are doing so more out of fear for their families than because they truly believe in the great Russian Bear.
As far as I know russian military prison for loyal ukrainian troops is kind of virtual problem while there are more vital affairs. Troops are pushed out of bases, then it's up to them what to do then. They can choose: leave Ukrainian army or leave Crimea. I don't think the third option, they continue to serve Ukrainian army in Crimea, is realistic.
Nobody there fear for families, though ukrainian sources claim the opposite, of course. Problem is how to communicate within separated families if Russia-Ukraine border will be closed or visa introduced.
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Hundreds of thousands of Russian troops did not share your opinion - and died - when the Germans invaded the USSR in 1941 ;).
They had no choice. Those days it was much more important to share not my opinion, but comrade Stalin's opinion. Because if you don't share it, you as a people's enemy, will be dead anyway. If they were not killed by Germans, they would be killed by their own compatriots.
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(http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/C/c/3/putin-vs-obama.jpg)
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Full measure? I did say if it was my decision I would sweep the Russians into the sea -not sure where else that could go.Would I start a nuclear attack on Russia-no- I would not pre-empt that.
Hey Jay!
The way I see it is that Russia will not just be ‘rolled into the sea’ as you put it. There would be a genuine very bloody battle…and nothing is to say that battle couldn’t be carried out anywhere, like even American shores…Americans don’t want this, not over a small piece of land that Russia has some legitimate ties to. I realize the vote couldn’t possibly represent the percentages correctly, but even CNN is stating that it does appear the will of the people was to be separated from Ukraine; it makes me believe that it is probably true. Had this been Australia or Iceland or some other completely different region then I think people in both America and Europe would have been moved to the point of acting, but not for a small ambiguous region like Crimea.
Yes troops and tanks have massed, but they haven’t done anything important…Russia has already had the option to move forward. There has been no important reason to wait, the West has already blinked…I believe the reality is Russia is not moving because they don’t want to. My feeling is that the troops and tanks represent a wiliness to fight if that is what it comes down to, but not an invasion force. If Russia was going to invade Ukraine, Moldova and other locations, it would have started already. Why would Russia wait until Ukraine organized itself and the West had time to figure out how to counter them? I still say it ain’t going to happen and was never on the plate. As the weeks continue to pass by and Russia stays put and the dust settles in Crimea, I wonder what excuse the loud clown is going to have to make war or why his 'important predictions' didn't come to pass.
Fathertime!
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Their Guy / Our Guy piture
Pretty funny. I think this one is a bit 'more' fitting these days...
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/Obamatruecalling_zps1a607722.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/Obamatruecalling_zps1a607722.jpg.html)
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Yes troops and tanks have massed, but they haven’t done anything important…Russia has already had the option to move forward. There has been no important reason to wait, the West has already blinked…I believe the reality is Russia is not moving because they don’t want to.
This military buildup is still ongoing. When Putin finishes building up this force, we can place our bets then. Let's hope it's just a big waste of his taxpayer's money.
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This military buildup is still ongoing. When Putin finishes building up this force, we can place our bets then. Let's hope it's just a big waste of his taxpayer's money.
Mr. Billy is very astute.
Must be so nice to live in la la land where taking the troops and the tanks out for a stroll at the cost of millions of Roubles to an economy who is not in the best condition, is considered being superfluous.
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As far as I know russian military prison for loyal ukrainian troops is kind of virtual problem while there are more vital affairs. Troops are pushed out of bases, then it's up to them what to do then. They can choose: leave Ukrainian army
I understood from what was written earlier that the Ukrainian army, unlike the Russian, is staffed by volunteers. If you are brave enough to volunteer to serve your country, why would you walk away at the first sign of trouble?
or leave Crimea.
Again, for many, this would be a gut-wrenching choice as they would have to leave the area where they have lived their whole lives.
I don't think the third option, they continue to serve Ukrainian army in Crimea, is realistic.
I agree - their chances of survival, in the current climate, would seem problematic at best.
Nobody there fear for families, though ukrainian sources claim the opposite, of course.
How can you possibly know this? You aren't there, and you're not a member of the Ukrainian armed forces. It's not just Ukrainian sources which claim this - the BBC, for one, has interviewed Ukrainian soldiers who expressed this particular fear very eloquently.
Problem is how to communicate within separated families if Russia-Ukraine border will be closed or visa introduced.
A very real problem, which is happening already.
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'Don't Give It To A Russian' Campaign Urges Ukrainian Sex Strike
A group of Ukrainian women is resorting to drastic measures to protest Moscow's moves in Crimea by calling for a sex strike against Russian men (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/ukrainian-women-have-launched-a-sex-strike-against-russian-men/284614/).
Organizers of the campaign "Don't Give It To A Russian" are urging fellow Ukrainian females to stay away from Russian men, the Atlantic reports. T-shirts designed by the campaign are emblazoned with the slogan, followed by a verse from the poem Kateryna by Ukraine's Taras Shevchenko: “O lovely maidens, fall in love, but not with the Moskaly (the Russians).
Katerina Venzhik, one of the group's founders and a Kiev-based editor at the Ukrainian news site Delo.UA, told Foreign Policy that the women started the campaign (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/03/24/ukrainian_hipsters_say_no_to_sex_with_russians) to draw attention to Russia's policies in Crimea.
Many Ukrainians have watched in disbelief in recent weeks as Russia flooded Crimea with troops, supported a disputed referendum on its status, and swiftly annexed the peninsula. Ukrainian troops are being pulled out of Crimea and Ukrainian-speaking residents say they may flee Kremlin control (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iFKj1cBmMaTIxWrqBnf3Mni5iXNA?docId=0e37c81a-6184-47a3-9e93-629822f5b984), Agence France Presse reports.
Venzhik said the campaign will donate proceeds from the t-shirts to the Ukrainian army. "We believe that in the context of military occupation of the territory it is silly to continue to assert that all men are brothers," she told Foreign Policy.
Whether the campaign will take off remains the be seen, as it still has to catch on in Ukraine. In Russia, however, bloggers have responded fiercely to the movement, and even Russian officials (http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/03/23/ukrainian-womens-sex-boycott-against-russian-men/) took note, according to Global Voices.
For pictures go here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/dont-give-it-to-a-russian_n_5028743.html)
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http://fullofbias.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/if-putin-has-strategy/
Crimea will return to Ukraine.
- Leonid Rogozin
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russias military is still building up
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/26/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-idUSBREA2P22120140326
, cant see this as sabre rattling or defensive posturing myself
more like psychological play to help destabilise before he moves, hoping pro russian militia will spark up or knowing they will as he has set the chess men in the s/east of ukraine with a timeline to kick things off for him
SX
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My wife has a schoolfriend that now lives in Crimea. According to her the majority of citizens are very happy to be a part of Russia.
Neither my wife nor her friend are happy about the Crimea situation. Her friend does not know if her and her family are going to move out.
This supports FT's views and it is also what I have felt. Why would the US get involved in Crimea when the majority of it's citizens would just want to kill us?
Now the rest of Ukraine? If putin invades I believe the US should send troops in. Sooner of later somebody must stop Putin. Why not as soon as he makes his next move into Ukraine? If he does make that move?
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LD
i think the horse has bolted in regards to crimea , quite plainly no one is realistically suggesting getting involved in a bloody war in what is historically a very difficult landscape to fight on let alone win on if your the invader as ukraine would now be ,
crimea is a lovely place, , im confident in time the locals will regret this change of occupier , time will show the net effect ,
the real issue is the s/east of ukraine and protecting it TODAY /NOW , imho
putinis waiting imo , for his fire to be set properly and then spark it off , swoop in and save the local russian ethnics,
it remains to be seen if that happens what the international community will do , at present it doesnt look like much :o
SX
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It is time we stopped praising Ukraine for ‘exercising restraint’?
March 26, 2014, 6:02 p.m. | Ukraine — by Yuriy Onyshkiv
James Sherr
Since Russian troops invaded and took over Crimea, Ukraine’s authorities have seemed largely helpless. The criticism is not easing since many expect that Russia may invade the mainland, citing Russian troops near Ukraine's northeastern borders and Russian President Vladimir Putin's claim that southeastern Ukraine is a traditionally Russian land.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/james-sherr-it-is-time-we-stopped-praising-ukraine-for-exercising-restraint-340991.html
Very good summary in linked article.
As far as Crimea is concerned--Ukraine has more pressing issues to deal with right now( like stopping Russian invasion and takeover) .
The Crimea WILL come back to Ukraine at some point-one way or another.
The anectdotal comments of support or residents--means littlke in any sense--I can show just as many not happy. The other point to note-- chances are that most Crimeans have been grossly mislead and are clueless about what is really going on.
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More and more reasons keep coming why the US needs to stop vacillating and do something in a serious way to help Ukraine now.How much more justification is needed?
The newspaper reminds that Obama just a few years ago made the Kyiv rid of enriched uranium.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/ukrayina-ne-stane-yadernoyu-derzhavoyu-bo-nemaye-materialu-dlya-bombi-time-339558.html
Against the backdrop of the invasion of Russia in Crimea Ukrainian and some Europeans have begun to return to nuclear status of Ukraine deter territorial ambitions of Vladimir Putin.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/ukrayina-ne-stane-yadernoyu-derzhavoyu-bo-nemaye-materialu-dlya-bombi-time-339558.html
http://tsn.ua/politika/ukrayina-ne-stane-yadernoyu-derzhavoyu-bo-nemaye-materialu-dlya-bombi-time-339558.html
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Can Russia withstand the cost of being an international pariah. Time is running out for Putin and Russians to wake up to the fact that they are about to start going backwards( again) compared to the rest of the world-- and how it could have been for them.Putin & cronies are smugly crowing about "acquiring" Crimea-- but will the cost sink them and Russia ?
The sceptics of economic sanctions having effect need to look now-see the potential of the damage it will do to Russia permanently.
Quoting--
"Investors try to stay away from those against whom the United States and EU imposed sanctions.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/groshi/investiciyni-fondi-skorochuyut-aktivi-v-rosiyi-cherez-sankciyi-342069.html
A few days after the U.S. and the EU entered a second round of sanctions against twenty citizens of Russia and Russian banks, investors began to gently treat Russian companies and their stocks. According to the Financial Times , the long-term consequences of the aggression of Russia against Ukraine may affect the investment climate and security. Unlike the first round of sanctions, the second wave related to big businessmen who own the largest companies of Russia and traded on stock exchanges in London and New York. They sell their shares to American and British institutional investors. Investment funds are worried that their investments through economic sanctions are not justified and gradually begin to reduce its assets in Russia. They prefer to stay away from those who are in the "black list" of Washington and Brussels. In particular, the gas company "Novatek", a large media group "CCC" from the listing in New York and infrastructure company "Mostotrest" with a listing in London."
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/groshi/investiciyni-fondi-skorochuyut-aktivi-v-rosiyi-cherez-sankciyi-342069.html
http://tsn.ua/groshi/investiciyni-fondi-skorochuyut-aktivi-v-rosiyi-cherez-sankciyi-342069.html
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If the west wants to hurt Putin's Russia - it is vulnerable to sanctions. Economic weakness caused the collapse of the Soviet Union a quarter of a century ago and – the self-enrichment of the oligarchs apart – not much has changed since. Energy exports to the rest of the world pay for imports of machines and consumer goods. The population is ageing and there has been little industrial diversification.
So, if the west really wants to hurt Vladimir Putin it should slap an oil embargo on Russia similar to that used against Iran. A drop in oil exports would mean Russia would not be able to afford German cars, French wine and Italian designer clothes.tin, could Saudi Arabia do its dirty work?
Europe depends on Russian oil and gas exports, so an embargo may not be practical. But there is another way to apply pressure
http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2014/mar/26/west-wants-hurt-putin-could-saudi-arabia-dirty-work
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I really question what the 'West' would do should Russia invade Ukraine. I am in no way sure the bigger nations can get enough support to put troops on the ground. All conflicts participated in by the US/UK/Nato in the last few years (open conflicts, not talking about covert operations) have always had the excuse of the fight against terrorism. The western population is sick and tired of seeing their people die many miles away from their own country for a threat that is very hard to judge, and as troops leave those countries it is also hard to see what those military interventions have done to improve the situation in those countries (and that goes all the way back to the Korean conflict). In many cases one rotten leader has just been replaced by another rotten leader, and persecutions have gone from one ethnic group to another ethnic group. Obviously with Russia being a permanent member of the UN there is no chance of hell of any resolution being passed by the UN that would allow the use of force, and you could question if the security council would even approve a peacekeeping mission.
Economic sanctions may bite, but, how often have economic sanctions had the desired effect? Often they are even used to create even more propganda and hatred towards the 'West'. Economic sanctions rarely actually affect the people who are in power, unless you take a very long term view (say 10-20 years) but that does not help Ukraine now if there is an invasion. The sanctions are purely symbolic and the west will be careful to implement any sanctions that will affect their own economies too greatly, the English government has no interest in displacing wealthy Russian from Londongrad, stopping Russians from using the UK courts and Sollicitors and Barristers to fight their business battles or to stop Russian money being used to buy UK assets and being spent at hotels, airports and shops. You could argue economic sanctions worked against South Africa, but how long before any changes started happening there after sanctions were applied? How long have sanctions been in place against Iran?
I can't help get the feeling that the Ukrainian people are being used as pawns in a high stakes game of chess, and that the people playing the game really could not care less what happens to the pawns. Putin made a bold move into Crimea, then paused and awaited the response of his opponents. I don't think he has been impressed and is now contemplating which next move will give him the path of least resistance to getting the result he wants from the game, though I am unsure what his true goal is.
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I really question what the 'West' would do should Russia invade Ukraine. I am in no way sure the bigger nations can get enough support to put troops on the ground.
Ah, my friend. It is not a matter of IF, it is a matter of WHEN. You can bet you last coin that when you have a Russian army walking into all these frozen conflicts, there will be a response. Either that or might as well give the world to Putler.
Sound familiar?
Anyway, :welcome:
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ft you can attack me personally but you can't attack my ideas or my prognosises.
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I used to hate history... but as time and current events pass over the last 20 years or so I became much more interested.
Looking back at recent history the King of invading sovereign countries has been the US, even when not supported by international law.
That Putin would like to show he can take a few crumbs here and there is par for the course, even intelligent considering the precedents....
Just IMHO..
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I used to hate history... but as time and current events pass over the last 20 years or so I became much more interested.
Looking back at recent history the King of invading sovereign countries has been the US, even when not supported by international law.
That Putin would like to show he can take a few crumbs here and there is par for the course, even intelligent considering the precedents....
Just IMHO..
The last time I looked the US was still 50 states and their assorted colonies are still the same. ;)
So, how's Italy BC? You've been absent for a while.
Hope life is still good for you, bud.
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The last time I looked the US was still 50 states and their assorted colonies are still the same. ;)
So, how's Italy BC? You've been absent for a while.
Hope life is still good for you, bud.
Muzh,
plugging right along.. :) Italy is well... Italy.. controlled chaos and that's about it.
The US invaded Afghanistan (IMHO rightly so with international backing) and couldn't handle it. Also invaded Iraq and couldn't handle it either (remember it would only cost 50 BN) A few trillion later and more to come we're withdrawing with nothing in hand.
At least Putin has bit off what he can chew.. a bit here and there but in the end with little life lost and little cost despite sanctions.
There is a difference between playing in your own back yard and that of others... a lesson still to be learned by the west.
End game.. +1 for Putin. 0 for the West.
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At least Putin has bit off what he can chew.. a bit here and there but in the end with little life lost and little cost despite sanctions.
Little cost?
Consider this. This whole thing may explode in Putin's face. First, China may have to choose between siding with Russia OR censuring Russia. I think if the Chinese want to invade Tawian it will get dicey either way they go. However, the Chinese economy depends on the US economy. Many people falsely believe that China "owns" the US. Good luck with that. Reality is, if they pissed the Americans and there are trade sanctions, who's economy do you think is going to tank first? Who are the Chinese going to sell all their garbage, to the ever shrinking Russian populatio whose net income will be disappearing when the oil glut hits next year? So, chalk China on "this" side.
Next, the grand Sino-Russian trade market. Uh, never mind. See above.
The obvious. The Marx brothers in-fighting. Who's Marxism dogma is superior? Will they battle it out. TBA.
The reconquista of the Eastern Siberia. See California and Texas as an example.
Europe's energy dependence of Russia is slowly disappearing. Most European nations have LNG docking and the last two, Poland and Lithuania are in the process of doing it. Did I mentioned oil glut? Right now, with a nasty winter, and Europe's reservoirs are full capacity.
The biggie. The normally compliant Chancellor Merkel is livid with Putler and has told him so. Something along "breaking her trust" or similar words.
Point is that Putler miscalculated BAD. No China on his side. Germany is pissed at him. And now he is being isolated by the western community.
No or little cost? Are you sure of that?
End game.. +1 for Putin. 0 for the West.
It's only half-time. ;D
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Putler?
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Putler?
A clever melding of the names Putin and Hitler. I wouldn't have thought it appropriate until Putin's astounding recreation of Hitler's speeches and actions regarding the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia in 1938.
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I must have been Hibernating during the Nasty winter Europe just had :) I can count the times I had to scrape ice of my car window on one hand (with two of those times coming in the past week).
I agree with the Putler statement, but we must also not forget that the person being referenced to was allowed to annex large parts of Europe before the English and French decided to try to stop him and even then the US lent support by sending over hardware, not troops. It took the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor for the US to involve their troops.
Western nations have been decimating their armed forces and adapting them to fight terrorism and run peace missions instead of a conventional war. Does the US have the stomach and the willpower to throw another trillion dollars at a fight far from home? Yes, China is not really supporting Putin, but will they be supporting the US by buying the bonds needed to finance such a war?
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Putler?
I know some people refer to him as Putalin. ;)
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I know some people refer to him as Putalin. ;)
So according to the Russian language that makes him an Hijo de ?
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Europe had a very mild winter.. very mild. Due to the last troubles with UA/RU gas crisis, higher reserves were stocked and of course now at full capacity.
UA is dependent on cheap gas from RU and much of EU is dependent of normal priced gas from RU. If UA has to pay market rates, most of western financial aid will go towards making up the price difference.
If the US has to increase exports to EU to make up for a loss of gas from RU prices will rise in the US.
It's a balancing act folks.
As for China, historically they have acted hand in hand with RU and not with the West. It would take a lot more than Crimea to change that.
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So according to the Russian language that makes him an Hijo de ?
Bad, bad. Filthy mind. :P
Son of Stalin. ;D
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Europe had a very mild winter.. very mild. Due to the last troubles with UA/RU gas crisis, higher reserves were stocked and of course now at full capacity.
UA is dependent on cheap gas from RU and much of EU is dependent of normal priced gas from RU. If UA has to pay market rates, most of western financial aid will go towards making up the price difference.
If the US has to increase exports to EU to make up for a loss of gas from RU prices will rise in the US.
It's a balancing act folks.
As for China, historically they have acted hand in hand with RU and not with the West. It would take a lot more than Crimea to change that.
BC, I was just reading the Moscow Times and their OP/ED editor wrote the following:
4 Reasons Why Putin's Crimea Grab Will Backfire
The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/4-reasons-why-putins-crimea-grab-will-backfire/497001.html)
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BC, I was just reading the Moscow Times and their OP/ED editor wrote the following:
4 Reasons Why Putin's Crimea Grab Will Backfire
The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/4-reasons-why-putins-crimea-grab-will-backfire/497001.html)
Muzh,
One thing we can't forge is that Putin, Obama, Merkel, whomever is at the top of a modern government has many, many more tools to assess the consequences of this action or that..... the common man or blogger or 'opinion page editor' has just that.. an opinion..
You know that old saying 'opinions are like assholes... everybody has one'..
But believe me, the folks at the top have much more.. they are not just slinging from the hip.
:)
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Muzh,
One thing we can't forge is that Putin, Obama, Merkel, whomever is at the top of a modern government has many, many more tools to assess the consequences of this action or that..... the common man or blogger or 'opinion page editor' has just that.. an opinion..
You know that old saying 'opinions are like assholes... everybody has one'..
But believe me, the folks at the top have much more.. they are not just slinging from the hip.
:)
I hope you are not saying that we should then throw our arms up in the air and say "Fcuk it" because we don't have "much more" as compared to our world leaders.
Come to think of it, they became world leaders (well, most of them) because WE didn't say "Fcuk it" and threw our arms up in the air.
Point is if we do not look at what is happening to our world, then we shouldn't complain at all, right?
Besides, those world leaders are very fond of those assholes, er..., opinions because they do look constantly at where the assholes are pointing.
Watch out!!! Incoming! ;D
Silent but deadly.
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I have a tough time believing that Ukraine will join NATO. NATO's eastern expansion is not supported by the majority of Ukrainians (AT THIS TIME). Instead, I see the threat of joining NATO as keeping Russia at bay and on the correct side of their border.
But that is just my opinion. And everyone has one.
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Putin made a bold move into Crimea, then paused and awaited the response of his opponents. I don't think he has been impressed and is now contemplating which next move will give him the path of least resistance to getting the result he wants from the game, though I am unsure what his true goal is.
Putin wants more. That's his true goal. He's weighing the costs and so far the costs aren't great.
Putin has agents in Eastern Ukraine to gain support of pro Russian citizens and to find the right guy who can win the election in less than two months. Unless the UN monitors this election, Putin will rig it and win it.
If Putin's puppet in the election loses, Putin will decide his next move. He could give up and end this thing or dismiss the election and claim Yanukovich is still Ukraine's legitimate president and/or claim ethnic Russians are oppressed in which case military force will be used to right these wrongs.
The only reason Putin will use military force before the May 25 election is if he believes he can't alter the election results, which becomes significantly more difficult if there are UN monitors there.
Putin made similar troop movements before going into Chechnya and Georgia. He has a reputation of using his troops when he moves them on somebody's front door.
China is not really supporting Putin, but will they be supporting the US by buying the bonds needed to finance such a war?
I think China will take a neutral stance. They will not support Russia's moves in Eastern Europe and they will not support sanctions. Sanctions against Russia will actually help China's economy since Russia will sell their oil cheap and China will have increased business from those who will not buy from Russia. China is an opportunist. If they see Russia beating and crippling America, they will help Russia with the kill. They have ambitions of being the top dog in this world and expanding their borders. China will be nice to us only if we stay strong. Like many bad boys in this world, they will only respect strength.
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I hope you are not saying that we should then throw our arms up in the air and say "Fcuk it" because we don't have "much more" as compared to our world leaders.
Come to think of it, they became world leaders (well, most of them) because WE didn't say "Fcuk it" and threw our arms up in the air.
Point is if we do not look at what is happening to our world, then we shouldn't complain at all, right?
Besides, those world leaders are very fond of those assholes, er..., opinions because they do look constantly at where the assholes are pointing.
Watch out!!! Incoming! ;D
Silent but deadly.
Muzh,
throw up our arms, no.. we each have one opin and vote so that will not go away. How that vote is interpreted is another thing alltogether...
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Billy B,
Does the west (including US) also not have a presence via the various NGO's? How is that different than Putins alleged 'troops' in UA?
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I don't think the US is going to Eastern Europe to kick ass. Notice how we've been shying away from conflicts there. No stomach. However, I think it is time for another US to take charge, The US of E (http://www.democraticunion.eu/about/statement-of-principles/).
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Billy B,
Does the west (including US) also not have a presence via the various NGO's? How is that different than Putins alleged 'troops' in UA?
BC, I know you're coming in late to this and similar threads but earlier I've made my views clear about Russia. I don't see these current events in the world as a struggle between good and evil. It's normal for countries to protect their interests and I respect Putin for pursuing his interests so I'm not surprised by the current events. With that said, Putin and the rest of the world should not be upset if America steps on someone's nuts when pursuing our interests. What are our interests?
There is a difference though on how America and Russia would like to see the world exist. Russia may like to see Ukraine and the world on its knees and in chains. America would like the world to do business with us but on their own free will just as many ex Soviet satellite nations have done.
America has used force or influence elections to change regimes in nations but that usually comes after a hostile event towards us such as what happened in 9/11 or to get rid of a leader that supports our enemies. Just as your wife would be happy if you stop threats to your family, we should be happy our nations stop threats to our way of life.
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I think China will take a neutral stance. They will not support Russia's moves in Eastern Europe and they will not support sanctions. Sanctions against Russia will actually help China's economy since Russia will sell their oil cheap and China will have increased business from those who will not buy from Russia. China is an opportunist. If they see Russia beating and crippling America, they will help Russia with the kill. They have ambitions of being the top dog in this world and expanding their borders. China will be nice to us only if we stay strong. Like many bad boys in this world, they will only respect strength.
Historically, you'd be correct. But, historically China wasn't sucking on the U.S. economy like the crackpipe that they are now. China is sitting in wait on an economic war. Very likely the only war they can actually win. They would side with the West in a heartbeat, if the West actually waged an economic war against Russia. Other than the current diarrhea of the mouth being spewed by the West. Which might explain more why the West is hesitant to act against Putin other than Obama's yellow backbone
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Billy B,
Does the west (including US) also not have a presence via the various NGO's? How is that different than Putins alleged 'troops' in UA?
If you meant *specially-trained, military-for-hire, ex-special forces* Non-Governmental Organization. then the answer is, IMHO, absolutely yessirree Bobski!. And they got there way before Putin's *self-defense* force who, incidentally, weren't really there.
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Historically, you'd be correct. But, historically China wasn't sucking on the U.S. economy like the crackpipe that they are now. China is sitting in wait on an economic war. Very likely the only war they can actually win. They would side with the West in a heartbeat, if the West actually waged an economic war against Russia. Other than the current diarrhea of the mouth being spewed by the West. Which might explain more why the West is hesitant to act against Putin other than Obama's yellow backbone
+1 We are in agreement!
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I think the cost if Russia were to continue invade other areas would be tremendous (not referring to just western sanctions) and I think Putin realizes this. That is one reason why I don’t think he is going any further than he already has. As it stands now, it appears the cost will probably be worth the benefit regarding Crimea
I’m seeing references to Hitler like speeches, although when I’ve heard Putin speak or read the transcripts he appears composed and logical. Perhaps somebody can reference one of these Hitleresque type speeches, because I’d like to read it.
Fathertime!
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I just read that Tymoshenko is running for president. I read some revolting apparently leaked comments about nuking 8 million Russians, which she is now disputing I guess. Based on her other comments, I think she probably did say it.
In addition In Kiev she gave a wild emotional speech, in which she even cried, and in a call to arms wants all the Russians killed.
Maybe prison was a good place for her. I sure hope she doesn't win.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-ex-pm-tymoshenko-arms-kill-russians-174050924.html#5wwvdBN (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-ex-pm-tymoshenko-arms-kill-russians-174050924.html#5wwvdBN)
Fathertime!
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This is what Ukraine, NATO & the US will be going up against. They have seen action in Georgia, Chechnya and now Syria.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CKJEpfawCI
FT, this is your Army - a country you can feel proud of.
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Historically, you'd be correct. But, historically China wasn't sucking on the U.S. economy like the crackpipe that they are now.
If Russia, or any country ever cripples America now or in the future and we become useless to China, China, under it's current government, will join in for the kill. Our money and strength are the only things that is making them play nice. Take both of them away, you will see China for who they are.
I’m seeing references to Hitler like speeches, although when I’ve heard Putin speak or read the transcripts he appears composed and logical. Perhaps somebody can reference one of these Hitleresque type speeches, because I’d like to read it.
Nobody is seeing Putin scream and shout with emotion like Hitler but his words and reasoning's for his actions are similar in an attempt to get his citizens fired up. Here's a video. There are more comparisons out there but in the end, it's up to the reader/listener on what they want to believe. Putin is ex KGB. He's a pro at propaganda and getting the people to believe and do what he wants. He's read up on history, has lots of experience, and understands what works and doesn't work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4UGVrgHTzs
I just read that Tymoshenko is running for president.
It would be a mistake to elect her. She's too emotional and wants revenge. She was elected in the past and was part of a failed government and didn't deliver her promise in reforming the country. Ukraine needs a leader to represent all people fairly, not just the west side.
Anybody watch the 45 minute speech Obama made in Brussels the other day? Obama started off clumsy but found his stride. He tried to get Europe to believe Ukrainians are like them and are experiencing the same struggles Europeans have had in past wars. He wanted Europeans to have sympathy for Ukrainians. He asked that all NATO nations live up to their obligations in NATO. I suspect although Russia has made bold moves, European countries aren't taking it as serious as they should for their own security. Obama didn't talk tough about Russia but I got the impression that he believes it isn't over and hinting that Europe better step up by having a more active and financial role in their security. Maybe their lack of interest in their own security is due to their belief America will bail them out?
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If Russia, or any country ever cripples America now or in the future and we become useless to China, China, under it's current government, will join in for the kill. Our money and strength are the only things that is making them play nice. Take both of them away, you will see China for who they are.
That just went over your head, didn't it?
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(http://www.teapartytribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Putin-Lines-LI.jpg)
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That just went over your head, didn't it?
Are we talking about what you highlighted in bold of mine in a quote or not? That bold you highlighted was not referring to just an economic war although the theme of your response was. If you want to talk about China's economic stance if a war broke out, next time highlight my opinions pertaining to China's economic stance. I'll address your thoughts below.
China is sitting in wait on an economic war. Very likely the only war they can actually win. They would side with the West in a heartbeat, if the West actually waged an economic war against Russia.
China would prefer an all out war between Russian and America but if all this amounts to is an economic war between USA and Russia, China will benefit but they would not side with the West in a heartbeat as you say. They are not our friends. Nothing personal, just business. They have shown to take a neutral stance at the UN time and time again pertaining to all issues that are Russian. They refused to join America at the UN and condemn the recent actions of Russia. China and Russia have held military training exercises together and had diplomatic talks. Those events in the past are frequent enough for us to be concern about. Russia and China have exchanged ideas on the best way to compete and deal with America and dismiss the dollar as the world's currency.
Because Russia has veto rights at the UN, the UN can't take any action against them so, China doesn't have any obligation to sanction Russia. It's hard enough to get America and Europe to put sanctions on Russia. In the event of strong sanctions, China will remain neutral and continue to enjoy economic benefits from both sides while we weaken each other.
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If Russia, or any country ever cripples America now or in the future and we become useless to China, China, under it's current government, will join in for the kill. Our money and strength are the only things that is making them play nice. Take both of them away, you will see China for who they are.
Nobody is seeing Putin scream and shout with emotion like Hitler but his words and reasoning's for his actions are similar in an attempt to get his citizens fired up. Here's a video. There are more comparisons out there but in the end, it's up to the reader/listener on what they want to believe. Putin is ex KGB. He's a pro at propaganda and getting the people to believe and do what he wants. He's read up on history, has lots of experience, and understands what works and doesn't work.
Hey Billyb!
I looked at that short Utube video...interesting, thanks for the posting it. Yes similar things are said as it pertains to Crimea and The Sudetenland. In my opinion the situation has some similarities so it makes sense that many statements would align and that he would rally for support from his fellow Russians. I really don't think that makes Putin like Hitler though. One important difference is that Hitler went on to invade many hostile countries after The Sudetenland....Putin has not, and it doesn't appear to me that he will (although he obviously has the military capability to). I think it is too early to make such a comparison... If Putin starts large scale invasions of hostile regions then it gives more validity to the comparison.
Fathertime!
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To the Putler denier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muxlul3MNo8
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Sometimes Billy you surprise me with what you do know and say, then, you say something right after that like now, that negates all of it and we're back at ground zero :rolleyes:
Are we talking about what you highlighted in bold of mine in a quote or not? That bold you highlighted was not referring to just an economic war although the theme of your response was. If you want to talk about China's economic stance if a war broke out, next time highlight my opinions pertaining to China's economic stance. I'll address your thoughts below.
Yes, I was addressing only what was in bold. It's not that hard to follow. The rest of it was nothing more than dribble.
China would prefer an all out war between Russian and America but if all this amounts to is an economic war between USA and Russia, China will benefit but they would not side with the West in a heartbeat as you say. They are not our friends. Nothing personal, just business.
China would prefer to be sitting on mountains of gold controlling the worlds economy, have the worlds military power. So would Russia and every other country in the world but, they don't. China and Russia together can not defeat America militarily or economically. Thus, what China or Russia would "like to see" is a moot point. You had just as well stated they wanted Fairies and unicorns. Geopolitics is business to every country Billy. In case you haven't noticed, the worlds powers do not go to war against each other. They only do that by pushing the 2nd and 3rd world countries into war and support opposing sides, in the last 75 years any ways. Might isn't which countries have the most bodies in their armies. Might is which countries have the best armies and wield the strongest economic influence. China and Russia together are no match for the U.S.
They have shown to take a neutral stance at the UN time and time again pertaining to all issues that are Russian. They refused to join America at the UN and condemn the recent actions of Russia. China and Russia have held military training exercises together and had diplomatic talks. Those events in the past are frequent enough for us to be concern about. Russia and China have exchanged ideas on the best way to compete and deal with America and dismiss the dollar as the world's currency.
That's a firm grasp of the obvious you have there. Congrats. But, it's no secret Billy. India, Iran and Brazil would like to change the world's currency too. Britian would like to have it back on the sterling but, it ain't going to happen. The Yuan is tied to the dollar. If the dollar dies, so goes the Yuan. Russia, China, India and others are buying as much gold as they can find but, they can't come close even if they put them together.
Because Russia has veto rights at the UN, the UN can't take any action against them so, China doesn't have any obligation to sanction Russia. It's hard enough to get America and Europe to put sanctions on Russia. In the event of strong sanctions, China will remain neutral and continue to enjoy economic benefits from both sides while we weaken each other.
Don't fool yourself. China won't remain neutral anytime. It will fuel whichever fire better suits it's need. China and Russia are not friends. The US and China are not friends. Russia and the US are not friends. They, with a dozen other countries work in unison together, against each other. The UN is nothing more than a saloon where they all hang out, form dark alliances against each other and pal up to their enemies and form the boogeyman that peons like you and I discuss on forums
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In case you haven't noticed, the worlds powers do not go to war against each other. They only do that by pushing the 2nd and 3rd world countries into war and support opposing sides, in the last 75 years any ways.
Nations behaviors in the last 75 years tells you what their behavior is going to be like in the future? In that case there will be no more world wars and as John Kerry said, nations don't invade other countries in the 21st century based off his observations in the last few years. You and John Kerry can't pick and choose the date to judge the future by.
Don't fool yourself. China won't remain neutral anytime. It will fuel whichever fire better suits it's need.
I guess I've fooled myself, so help me out. Give me some examples where China aligned themselves with America against Russia and aligned themselves with Russia against America in the UN or anywhere for that matter? They have been and will remain neutral to the events in the past and events in Ukraine so don't expect China to join America in sanctioning Russia if they invade again just because they like our business.
Russia and America aren't going to stop doing business with China if they remain neutral. If China fuels the fire of one of those nations as you suggest, they'll definitely lose the business of the other.
Sometimes Billy you surprise me with what you do know and say, then, you say something right after that like now, that negates all of it and we're back at ground zero :rolleyes:
I don't expect everybody to understand me, just the smart people.
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Two observations:
1. The US is beyond belief in military might alone through the drones they are able to put up to defeat mechanized columns. In a conventional war, US wins, hands down. In the same thought process, the US Air Force still has a sustainable advantage against both the Russians and Chinese, but not without suffering great casualties. Russia has no stealth technology. China does, but not in great numbers.
2. Anybody who missed it, the Chinese have made some bold moves in Africa while everyone's eyes were on Eastern Europe. All within the last two months. Hmm. Pretty prescient of them, if you ask me.
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Nations behaviors in the last 75 years tells you what their behavior is going to be like in the future? In that case there will be no more world wars and as John Kerry said, nations don't invade other countries in the 21st century based off his observations in the last few years. You and John Kerry can't pick and choose the date to judge the future by.
I guess I've fooled myself, so help me out. Give me some examples where China aligned themselves with America against Russia and aligned themselves with Russia against America in the UN or anywhere for that matter? They have been and will remain neutral to the events in the past and events in Ukraine so don't expect China to join America in sanctioning Russia if they invade again just because they like our business.
More dribble and circular logic Billy. Why don't you give an example of 2 world powers that went to war with each other in the last 75 years?
I don't expect everybody to understand me, just the smart people.
Based on your ramblings here, that would be anyone with an IQ over 40? You really should engage in adult conversation in real life sometimes.
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Guys, take a break.
How the last events in Ukraine look in eyes of creative personalities.
Russia celebrates reunion with Crimea:
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/marv/29043303/7334171/7334171_original.jpg)
Ukrainians are proud to be Ukrainians:
(http://ukraine.0-ua.com/assets/images/The%20birth%20of%20the%20State%20of%20Ukraine.jpeg)
Because they fiercely fought at barricades during Kiev's uprising. And win!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-74v43k_voDo/UyBzVlHptTI/AAAAAAAAYEQ/7Qrd_eHI2rQ/s1600/1527007_10152270560870789_380429786_n.jpg)
Though some artists are not so sure in the bright future of Ukrainian Revolution. You know, economics, permanent civil conflics, the crafty designs of Moscow, etc. :
(http://blog.scona.com.ua/pictures/hovrenko_maydan.jpg)
And Moscow is the main enemy now, of course:
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/saracinua/9998517/20460/20460_1000.jpg)
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Nice artwork!
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I think Ukraine stopped sitting on their hands.
TSN.UA (http://tsn.ua/politika/na-harkivschini-provedut-masshtabni-viyskovi-navchannya-342093.html)
TSN.UA (http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/ukrayina-pidnyala-v-nebo-100-vinischuvachiv-23-bombarduvalniki-ta-39-shturmovikiv-342388.html)
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I think Ukraine stopped sitting on their hands.
TSN.UA (http://tsn.ua/politika/na-harkivschini-provedut-masshtabni-viyskovi-navchannya-342093.html)
TSN.UA (http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/ukrayina-pidnyala-v-nebo-100-vinischuvachiv-23-bombarduvalniki-ta-39-shturmovikiv-342388.html)
links don't work for me.
Two observations:
2. Anybody who missed it, the Chinese have made some bold moves in Africa while everyone's eyes were on Eastern Europe. All within the last two months. Hmm. Pretty prescient of them, if you ask me.
Hi Jone!
I missed the bold Chinese moves in Africa...What exactly have they done in the past couple months? I know recently that China has shown a lotta interest in Africa. Seems like a smart move going forward.
Russia and America aren't going to stop doing business with China if they remain neutral. If China fuels the fire of one of those nations as you suggest, they'll definitely lose the business of the other.
It seems like a smart move for China to not take either side too strongly. I suspect they are more supportive of Russia though, if for nothing else it keeps us wasting money on too much military expense which we really can't even use because nobody wants to go to war with another nuclear power.
Fathertime!
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links don't work for me.
http://tsn.ua/politika/na-harkivschini-provedut-masshtabni-viyskovi-navchannya-342093.html (http://tsn.ua/politika/na-harkivschini-provedut-masshtabni-viyskovi-navchannya-342093.html)
http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/ukrayina-pidnyala-v-nebo-100-vinischuvachiv-23-bombarduvalniki-ta-39-shturmovikiv-342388.html (http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/ukrayina-pidnyala-v-nebo-100-vinischuvachiv-23-bombarduvalniki-ta-39-shturmovikiv-342388.html)
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Had to laugh
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Hi Jone!
I missed the bold Chinese moves in Africa...What exactly have they done in the past couple months? I know recently that China has shown a lotta interest in Africa. Seems like a smart move going forward.
It seems like a smart move for China to not take either side too strongly. I suspect they are more supportive of Russia though, if for nothing else it keeps us wasting money on too much military expense which we really can't even use because nobody wants to go to war with another nuclear power.
Fathertime!
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/01/10/chinas-congo-plan/
http://thediplomat.com/2014/01/chinas-bold-10-billion-investment-in-nigerian-hydrocarbons/
(http://www.columbia.edu/itc/sipa/nelson/newmediadev/files/china_africa.png)
The People's Republic of Africa
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44229000/gif/_44229699_africa_china_invest_map416.gif)
http://www.bdlive.co.za/africa/africanbusiness/2014/01/30/zimbabwe-adopts-chinese-yuan-as-legal-currency
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http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/01/10/chinas-congo-plan/ (http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/01/10/chinas-congo-plan/)
http://thediplomat.com/2014/01/chinas-bold-10-billion-investment-in-nigerian-hydrocarbons/ (http://thediplomat.com/2014/01/chinas-bold-10-billion-investment-in-nigerian-hydrocarbons/)
(http://www.columbia.edu/itc/sipa/nelson/newmediadev/files/china_africa.png)
Thanks Jone,
It looks to me like while we have been playing policeman to the world, and running up near 18 trillion in debt, the Chinese have been quietly investing the money they are earning and getting interest on to better their future prospects. Smart moves on their part, some of those moves will probably pay off.
It reminds me of this classic 1 minute Youtube video.
[size=78%]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSQozWP-rM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSQozWP-rM)[/size]
Fathertime!
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Blame America first, often & for everything.
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This is a very interesting report on the 'Self-Defense' groups being put together in Ukraine.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/28/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
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Ukrainian navy dolphins are defecting...!!
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/27/world/europe/crimea-dolphins-defect/index.html?iid=article_sidebar
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Ukrainian navy dolphins are defecting...!!
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/27/world/europe/crimea-dolphins-defect/index.html?iid=article_sidebar
No, Karl, they're not - unlike the humans, they have absolutely no choice in the matter! :'(
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http://ru.tsn.ua/politika/poyavilis-temniki-po-kotorym-kremlevskie-smi-promyvayut-mozgi-rossiyanam-357682.html
http://ru.tsn.ua/video/video-novini/ni-odno-evropeyskoe-konsulstvo-v-rossii-ne-budet-obsluzhivat-krymchan.html
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the Chinese have been quietly investing the money they are earning and getting interest on to better their future prospects. Smart moves on their part, some of those moves will probably pay off.
I read an article not too long ago that say many Chinese investments are risky because they're in 3rd world nations. Instead of remaining neutral, China has voted against American interests at the UN when it came to issues such as action against Libya and Syria knowing a pro Western change in regimes will make them lose their investments. We do lots of business with China but we are more competitors than friends.
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Putin says ethnic Russians face "brutality" in Ukraine.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/growing-threat-russia-invasion-eastern-ukraine-us-intelligence-1442178
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Looking back at recent history the King of invading sovereign countries has been the US, even when not supported by international law.
Which of these did USA add or annex to the territory of USA?
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I read an article not too long ago that say many Chinese investments are risky because they're in 3rd world nations.
With risk comes reward and many will probably pay off. The Chinese are not only active in Africa right now. My last trip to Costa Rica I noticed every single police car was brand new, 250 gifts from China. They also donated 4.6 million, new soccer stadium, and a new bridge across the Nicoya. The bad news is Chinese vehicles are not known for being very reliable...
http://insidecostarica.com/2012/10/30/more-than-half-of-police-cars-donated-by-china-are-out-of-service/ (http://insidecostarica.com/2012/10/30/more-than-half-of-police-cars-donated-by-china-are-out-of-service/)
The Chinese are very active right offshore here in Florida at the moment. Thirty five million dollar soccer stadium, and a mega resort is in the works in the Bahamas. I would think these are pretty safe investments.
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Which of these did USA add or annex to the territory of USA?
Don't try logic ML, he is an inconvertible liberal.
I play golf with a real estate developer. He voted for Obama twice. I asked him if there were an election today, would he still vote for Obama considering the many scandals. He said "yes." :-\
My friend who is a retired school teacher would also say yes (I don't waste my breath and ask), but that is understandable. But a real estate developer. He is originally from Chicago. Is that the reason?
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Well, FT will be happy. Obama will bend over and Putin will him in claim victory just like he did in Syria.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdHqOZFvAYM
Men like those Gator described (and FT) are the real problem in America not the cocaine snorting Marxist gay boy
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The Chinese pretty smart. While the west has thrown billions at Africa re poverty and starvation, the Chinese have identified Africa as a natural resource rich area. China needs resources, but Africa does/did not have the infrastructure in place to mine those resources and ship them. So instead of sending another 100 million worth of food they built them roads, ports etc. In return for the infrastructure they just want those resources sent over as quickly as they can get them out of the ground. It all has to do with supply chain. You can't really fault their logic. they are basically telling Africans we won't give you food but we will provide the infrastructure so you can build an industry which will provide jobs that provide money with which you can buy food. Sounds like more of a long term solution than sending over shipments of food. Of course, some countries in Africa not the most stable and there are some pretty terrible guys running some of the countries, but, the Chinese don't care as long as the resources flow their way.
Not sure how that would affect their support for Russia or the US should it come to a war, you have to think they will look at it as a business case, "will the US stop buying everything we produce if we import the gas that would otherwise have gone to Europe / Baltic states?" I think they will take the Russian gas and rightly gamble that the US may impose some tariffs on obscure products that will affect no one, but they will not impose (higher) tarrifs on the latest Iphone, Ipad, Christmas toy etc.. The west is totally dependent on the Chinese and they know it. Western companies need the Chinese market to sell their goods so they can keep profits growing, and they need Chinese companies to produce for them not just at the budget end of the market but also in the premium brand segment to keep profit margins at the level they want/need to satisfy investors. A trade war with Russia would be peanuts compared to a trade war with China, the Chinese know it and will take full advantage of it. the Chinese will no doubt keep a close eye on things to see if while the US is busy with Russia in Europe they can sneak into Taiwan...
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The Africans want to do business with Americans not Chinese.
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I'm glad you consider me a problem and I'm utterly delighted that I've got inside your head! :D
Fathertime!
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The Chinese are very active right offshore here in Florida at the moment. Thirty five million dollar soccer stadium, and a mega resort is in the works in the Bahamas. I would think these are pretty safe investments.
[/quote]
Hey alex. There is a lot of truth in that post. I will see how far along that Bahamas project is tomorrow as I pass it by. It has to be close to completion...the chinese will compete directly with the ATlantis resort.
If the chinese keep this up they will own half the world..they work hard though..not as many obese men sucking off the government teet. I come to feel that we as a nation spend too much on 'defense'...so much that it isn't even defense that our military is used for nowadays.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdHqOZFvAYM
Interesting turn of events. The White House usually doesn't mentioned who places the phone call but this time they want Americans to know that Putin called Obama on their latest talk which makes us believe Obama has the upper hand. It also leads us to believe Putin is on defense and Russia is negotiating a way out. Another trick up Putin's sleeve to keep us a few more steps behind his moves?
Where's our pro Russian posters? If Putin does back off invading Ukraine, how will the majority of Russian citizens feel? There are ethnic Russians in Ukraine and Moldova needing help. Will backing off now will reflect on Putin as being weak among Russian citizens? If Putin backs off Ukraine, Obama will be looking good.
The video also mentioned the Saudi Arabian King, who Obama met, is not happy with America's soft stance on Syria and Iran and may consider starting up a nuclear program. They won't need to depend on America anymore for their security. People have predicted an arms race if Iran goes nuclear.
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Why we don't know what Putin is thinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NGV2Km8470
BillyB, I agree with your sentiments. I hope the GOP can get control of both houses but it is a long time until November and an even longer time until January. Yanukovych has been giving a number of speeches and pressers near Rostov on the Don. He wants more referendums in the East. But that ship is not leaving the harbor. I am hearing reports of violence from Right Sector in Kiev and other cities. But my relatives say things are stable but that the humiliation in Crimea has brought more discontent with an already unpopular government.
Dr. Taras Kuzios says if Putin does invade it will be before the May 25th election. I am looking at his military - he has according to LTC (ret) Peters 50,000 good troops - the rest are conscripts. These troops have seen action in Chechnya, Georgia and Syria but have a mixed record of only taking cities after turning them into ruble.
If Putin has one diplomatic blunder he is done, but I think with the Russian patriotic blood up, he can withstand a number of bloody defeats before the people eat this last Tsar - but not likely, he's a survivor. What do you think?
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If Putin has one diplomatic blunder he is done, but I think with the Russian patriotic blood up, he can withstand a number of bloody defeats before the people eat this last Tsar - but not likely, he's a survivor. What do you think?
I think Putin is going to do what Putin is going to do. If he wants to be president for life, he can make that happen even with poor approval ratings. Putin does care about his popularity, returning Russia to it's glory days, and his place in history. Owning Ukraine would be a start to return to the glory days and engrave his name in the history books but that could hurt them economically or militarily....if the world had guts to apply any serious sanctions or threaten use of force to defend Ukraine.
Even if Putin told Obama he's willing to talk about a diplomatic solution, I wouldn't believe it until he pulls back his forces. Action speaks louder than words. One thing other countries have learned from recent events is that aggressive action against a neighbor improves leverage at the bargaining table.
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I hope the GOP can get control of both houses but it is a long time until November and an even longer time until January. Yanukovych has been giving a number of speeches and pressers near Rostov on the Don. He wants more referendums in the East. But that ship is not leaving the harbor. I am hearing reports of violence from Right Sector in Kiev and other cities. But my relatives say things are stable but that the humiliation in Crimea has brought more discontent with an already unpopular government.
If you think switching between Corrupt Party D in favor of Corrupt Party R will change things, you are not thinking clearly.
I suggest a short reading list, all is free:
War Is a Racket by Smedley Butler
Communist Manifesto - compare with D and R positions the 10 demands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists
Catechism of a Revolutionary by Nechayev - makes Alinsky look like a 3rd grader writing naughty things on the bathroom stalls http://www.spunk.org/library/places/russia/sp000116.txt ... note behavior of both D and R activism compared to Nechayev
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Where's our pro Russian posters? If Putin does back off invading Ukraine, how will the majority of Russian citizens feel? There are ethnic Russians in Ukraine and Moldova needing help. Will backing off now will reflect on Putin as being weak among Russian citizens? If Putin backs off Ukraine, Obama will be looking good.
Here we are :)
Majority of Russian citizens do not consider the invading Ukraine as a realistic scenario, moreover they would condemn it. So the invading would be a great unpleasant supprise. However at present majority of Russian citizens watch russian TV and not CNN so they feel no concerns. Then backing off will reflect on Putin as being reasonable man whom they can trust and vote for father.
Obama will be looking good for sure, let him thank Putin :)
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What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?
History - about 70 years ago to be precise.
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Calm down folks.
Both NATO and Obama have expressed concerned about the positioning of Russian troops along Ukraine's eastern border. Reports place the total number of troops at 40,000. IMO this is well short of the number needed for a Russia invasion, even with far superior airpower and armor.
When the Soviets intervened in Afghanistan in 1979, the initial Soviet force numbered 80,000 men. This for a country where the government was pro-Soviet and half of the Afghan army still loyal to the government.
Russia will not invade Ukraine now (but probably much later). And when it happens Russia will need far more than 40,000 men. What we have now is Russia making a demonstration of its capability. It is for show. We also have the Russian boa constrictor. It has ingested Crimea. Like the boa it must rest before feeding again.
Ignore my analysis and simply look at the price of oil. The price has dropped recently. The smart money will know of an invasion well before it happens, and start driving the price of oil up knowing that sanctions will curtail Russian exports.
So calm down folks.
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Here we are :)
Majority of Russian citizens do not consider the invading Ukraine as a realistic scenario, moreover they would condemn it. So the invading would be a great unpleasant supprise. However at present majority of Russian citizens watch russian TV and not CNN so they feel no concerns. Then backing off will reflect on Putin as being reasonable man whom they can trust and vote for father.
Obama will be looking good for sure, let him thank Putin :)
I am confused, help me to understand bolded part.
So if majority of Russians do not consider Russia will invade Ukraine what do they thinks about Russians troops/tanks/heavy artillery/etc on our border? Picnic? Dress up party? Or it is way of intimidating Ukrainians? If it is intimidation do really majority of Russians desire forget centuries of history between two nations and establish 'friendship' and 'warm feelings towards each other' by pointing guns at Ukrainians?
Presidents come and go, nations remain and will have to live with consequences. So what it will be if your sociopath president decides dress up party was nice but it is time to invade Ukraine:
a. You stop supporting him but quietly keep your opinion to yourself;
b. You stop supporting him and will be doing something to stop Russian invasion;
c. You stop supporting him and will come and fight with Ukrainians for their sovereignty;
d. You will consider provided excuses for invasion and if excuses good enough you will support invasion;
e. You will consider provided excuses for invasion and if excuses good enough you will go fight against Ukrainians.
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(http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q715/Jon_Eberhardt/oilimage_zps0212b6c9.png)
Where, in here, Gator, do you see the prices over the last three months going down? It seems to me to be just the opposite and directly reflects the speculation over Russian aggression.
I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire ...... well, maybe I am.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/markets-oil-idUSL4N0MP1AK20140328
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Yes, from peak a month ago, but now on the upswing as you say. What do you think the price would be if Russia invaded Ukraine? There would be a much larger rise.
And how about the number of troops?
You should look at Brent rather than WTI. http://markets.ft.com/research/markets/Tearsheets/Summary?s=IB.1:IEU
The rise at the beginning of March was more about outages and other market forces (demand, currency fluctuations, ....) than Crimea IMO as is the recent uptick.
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Reports place the total number of troops at 40,000. IMO this is well short of the number needed for a Russia invasion, even with far superior airpower and armor.
The amount of troops are enough for a more peaceful partial invasion like the one in Crimea if Ukraine doesn't fire back. There has been disagreement on the number of troops on the border but one thing NATO, USA, and Ukraine agree on is that the force is increasing rapidly and are not performing training exercises as Russia claims. It's also hard to count troops and armor when their hiding in forests. By the May 25 election, we'll know if the buildup is strong enough for a more dominant invasion.
Don't forget the 25,000 Russian troops sitting in Crimea. The troops on the Ukrainian-Russian border aren't the only ones that can fire a gun.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/28/world/europe/russia-ukraine-troop-buildup/
Ignore my analysis and simply look at the price of oil. The price has dropped recently. The smart money will know of an invasion well before it happens, and start driving the price of oil up knowing that sanctions will curtail Russian exports.
I wish oil was the definite answer to what's going to happen to end speculation. Did price of oil predict Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, 9/11, or the Arab Spring? Price of oil sometimes moves only after an event takes place. I understand there are a lot of smart people in oil and I do value what they say, but the only fact is the one in control of the current situation is Putin and since he's KGB smart, he knows how disguise his next moves and keep people guessing.
Calm down folks.
Some people are living in fear. It's easy to experience fear when a neighbor invades part of your country and now is holding a loaded gun to your head at a time when the nation is most weak after a revolution and somewhat still divided. Some members here are about to travel to Ukraine. Others have loved ones in Ukraine and some who are married to Ukrainians have in laws that could be affected by an invasion.
I'd like to tell my MIL currently in Ukraine she can just live her life worry free. That would be irresponsible for me to say that. When it comes to life and death with your nation on the edge of war, it's wise to prepare for the worse. I've given her tips for her safety and how to survive long term if utilities and food supplies get shut down. I suggested two ways for her to escape Ukraine and fly to America. One option is through Poland and the other through Moldova but the Moldova option isn't looking to good right now. MIL wants to stay in Ukraine to vote. As a retired doctor, she may even decide to stay in Ukraine to provide medical attention to those who are in need. She loves helping people and loves Ukraine but she also would like to see her future grandchildren. Some people think doctors have a moral duty to stay and work in the event of a war but I wouldn't think less of her if she avoids it.
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I believe if Russia invaded Ukraine they would come with everything they had. Especially since Ukraine has now had time to prepare.
Just as an aside, the US claims troop buildups of 40,000. The Ukrainians claim troop buildups of 80,000 to 100,000. I think we are seeing a bit of stage acting by the Ukrainians.
I also think that the moves by Russia has propelled the Ukrainians into a different mode of thinking that is extremely anti-Russian. While there may be 10-20% in some regions of the country that are for joining Russia, the 30-40% of people who are Russian speakers and were indifferent to politics are now heavily swayed by Russia's aggressive action. They are scared. They consider Russia a great evil. Such was not the case three months ago.
Ukrainians have a gut fear of invasion. They have had it instilled in them for generations upon generations. Russia will not overcome this fear that it has seeded in the core of the Ukrainian population in our lifetime.
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So if majority of Russians do not consider Russia will invade Ukraine what do they thinks about Russians troops/tanks/heavy artillery/etc on our border? Picnic? Dress up party? Or it is way of intimidating Ukrainians?
Actually Russians think nothing about Russians troops/tanks/heavy artillery/etc on Ukrainian border. Because they do not watch or read Ukrainian sources or CNN, and Russian media covers the events without war rhetoric. Though we read official denials at different levels about the troops concentration. 7 Ukrainian and NATO inspections took place in the last month along Russo-Ukrainian border and found nothing questionable.
So what it will be if your sociopath president decides dress up party was nice but it is time to invade Ukraine:
a. You stop supporting him but quietly keep your opinion to yourself;
b. You stop supporting him and will be doing something to stop Russian invasion;
c. You stop supporting him and will come and fight with Ukrainians for their sovereignty;
d. You will consider provided excuses for invasion and if excuses good enough you will support invasion;
e. You will consider provided excuses for invasion and if excuses good enough you will go fight against Ukrainians.
Majority of Russians including Putin considers Ukrainians as part of Russian people, and we hate the civil war. Putin is not sociopath but calculating man focused on national interests of Russia. Results of his rule support this statement.
In reply to options I'd like to note that possible answer does not reflect on what real actions will be.
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Where, in here, Gator, do you see the prices over the last three months going down? It seems to me to be just the opposite and directly reflects the speculation over Russian aggression.
Talking in terms of stock market the oil price is moving within wide consolidation for 3 years. Good for option sellers.
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Then backing off will reflect on Putin as being reasonable man whom they can trust and vote for father.
Obama will be looking good for sure, let him thank Putin :)
True, the actions of Putin dictates how good or bad Obama will look.
I'm disappointed at Obama for disclosing that it was Putin who initiated the last call when Obama didn't make a practice of disclosing who initiates calls in the past. Putin is probably pissed that Obama is insinuating he has the upper hand and Putin is backing down. Obama's makes himself look good by insinuating Putin is hesitating and his sanctions are working but truth is Obama's hurting the chances of resolving the situation peacefully for personal gain.
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True, the actions of Putin dictates how good or bad Obama will look.
I'm disappointed at Obama for disclosing that it was Putin who initiated the last call when Obama didn't make a practice of disclosing who initiates calls in the past. Putin is probably pissed that Obama is insinuating he has the upper hand and Putin is backing down. Obama's makes himself look good by insinuating Putin is hesitating and his sanctions are working but truth is Obama's hurting the chances of resolving the situation peacefully for personal gain.
Excellent observations, Billy.
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Though we read official denials at different levels about the troops concentration. 7 Ukrainian and NATO inspections took place in the last month along Russo-Ukrainian border and found nothing questionable.
Interesting because in Western news, we read that Ukraine and NATO have sounded off alarms about the troop buildup. Somebody is lying to their people.
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I doubt Putin ever really considered invading UA proper as viable. With Crimea it's his win and UA politics have a long long way before becoming stable enough for a move in the direction of EU, NATO or RU for that matter.
After all, what's UA worth strategically without Crimea?
The remaining battles over UA will be economic. Is the west up to paying the price? After all RU has to do is maintain low gas prices and mingle a bit in politics whereas the west has quite a way to go.
Yeah, Putin is probably a bit pissed with western media and politics trying to put a spin on him. The troops at the border were a deterrence for UA trying to forcefully re-take Crimea.. nothing more, nothing less.
My tip, UA will not be able to live up to the fiscal restraints of western aid, RU will chip in and things go back to status quo in short order. UA has more to gain leaning east than west. EU is becoming less dependent on RU gas giving RU cheap leverage over UA without too many strings attached.
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Much discussion has occurred on whether Russia will invade Ukraine from the East. I came across this interesting piece on what that Russian invasion would likely entail. Here are a few of the highlights:
What Would A Russian Invasion Of Ukraine Look Like?
In brief, the aim would be a blitzkrieg that, before Ukraine has the chance properly to muster its forces and, perhaps more to the point, the West can meaningfully react, allows the Russians to draw a new front line and assert their own ground truth, much as happened in Crimea (though this would be much more bloody and contested).
... The first stage would be to infiltrate special forces and agents ...
Vremya Cha, ‘Zero Hour,’ would be marked with a massive attempt to shatter Ukraine’s command, control and communications infrastructure through everything from jamming and cyberattack to physical sabotage...
Meanwhile, the airports in eastern cities such as Donetsk and Dnipropetrovsk will be being seized, (allowing) the rapid insertion of the paratroop forces the Russians have already assembled close by...
Regular Russian ground forces will spill across the border to support them. Not only have armoured and mechanised forces been mustered along the border, with full artillery support, but perhaps more telling has been the assembly of the logistical necessities–fuel, ammunition, medical supplies, etc–for high-tempo operations.
The aim, as mentioned, will be to move fast to seize and define a new front line wherever Moscow wants it.
http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/what-would-a-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-look-like/
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Actually Russians think nothing about Russians troops/tanks/heavy artillery/etc on Ukrainian border. Because they do not watch or read Ukrainian sources or CNN, and Russian media covers the events without war rhetoric. Though we read official denials at different levels about the troops concentration. 7 Ukrainian and NATO inspections took place in the last month along Russo-Ukrainian border and found nothing questionable.
Joke? Net is full of info about large build up of Russian troops on Ukrainian border in every language including Russian as well as video uploads made by Russians who witnessed movement of military vehicles.
What is this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-R0NzWGlTg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwLIfGsRJM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfDn4UM05Rw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPKJt2AFkmc
Majority of Russians including Putin considers Ukrainians as part of Russian people, and we hate the civil war.
And what Ukrainians consider counts in somehow or not? Because majority are Ukrainians and not only not Russians but also do not see themselves as part of Russian people in anyway.
Just because you invaded us several times doesn't mean we became you. Just because during Soviet Union Ukrainians have been forced to speak Russian as a first language doesn't mean Russia can go on 'defending' Ukrainians on pretense of 'defending Russian language speakers'.
Putin is not sociopath but calculating man focused on national interests of Russia.
Another joke? If its a dress up party don't you realize approx. cost of it and that those money could have been spent better way to benefit average Russian citizens? And if that is preparation for invasion don't you realize Ukrainians will fight back if Russians cross border?
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And if that is preparation for invasion don't you realize Ukrainians will fight back if Russians cross border?
I find this statement very interesting. Do you in fact agree that Crimea was not invaded?
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And what Ukrainians consider counts in somehow or not?
I'm afraid the answer is No. At least the USA never asked Ukrainians before it organized Maydan. At least people in Crimea were never asked. Discrimination...there are 2 millioins of us, we should have been asked
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I find this statement very interesting. Do you in fact agree that Crimea was not invaded?
No, I believe Crimea was invaded but Ukrainians unlike Russians are not invaders. Crimea was given to us, we didn't invade it, we didn't force Crimea population to be us.
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No, I believe Crimea was invaded but Ukrainians unlike Russians are not invaders. Crimea was given to us, we didn't invade it, we didn't force Crimea population to be us.
[/quote
If Crimea was invaded where was the fight?
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I'm afraid the answer is No. At least the USA never asked Ukrainians before it organized Maydan. At least people in Crimea were never asked. Discrimination...there are 2 millioins of us, we should have been asked
Even if allegedly USA financially and politically supported Maidan it is Ukrainians in hundreds of thousands who came out on the streets of Kiev in sub-freezing temperature to fight for their future. Crimea people had a right to express their opinion as anyone else and by the way some from Crimea been on Maidan too and were fighting too.
As you are from Crimea do you know if you will be able to get any visas for traveling to other countries. My understanding is, as Crimea referendum was found illegitimate by other countries, you will not be able to obtain visas to travel those countries. Is this correct?
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If Crimea was invaded where was the fight?
Invasion: an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/invasion
Do you see anything about any 'fight'?
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The troops at the border were a deterrence for UA trying to forcefully re-take Crimea.. nothing more, nothing less.
Yeah, right. :wallbash:
Please, look reports on where Russia building up its troops, then open map, next find on the map where those Russians troops located and where is Crimea and then try to say again '.. nothing more, nothing less.'
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http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/invasion
Do you see anything about any 'fight'?
You said if Russia invades Ukraine then Ukrainians will fight back. You said Crimea was invaded. My questions to you is why Ukrainians did not fight back then?
At what point Ukrainians will start fighting back?
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You said if Russia invades Ukraine then Ukrainians will fight back. You said Crimea was invaded. My questions to you is why Ukrainians did not fight back then?
Because as I said Crimea was given to us. Majority of Crimean population is not Ukrainian by its roots and if Crimean population welcomes Russian invasion we wouldn't force them.
At what point Ukrainians will start fighting back?
Are you aware that average villagers living close to border where Russia pulling in troops digging trenches and making barricades and obstacles from car tyres (to light up for smoke) to be able slow down troops when invasion starts? Are you aware that across whole Ukraine men aged up to 50 yo re-called for national mobilization of the military? Are you aware that many do not wait for re-call and volunteering in order to be ready on time for invasion? Majority people have no doubts invasion will happen, the only question remained unanswered is when it will begin.
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Net is full of info about large build up of Russian troops on Ukrainian border in every language including Russian as well as video uploads made by Russians who witnessed movement of military vehicles.
What is this?
This is large scale military exercises in western army district of Russia. According to the Defense Minister, the drill was held from February 26 until March 3. 150,000 troops, 880 tanks and 1,200 pieces of military hardware were involved.
And what Ukrainians consider counts in somehow or not? Because majority are Ukrainians and not only not Russians but also do not see themselves as part of Russian people in anyway.
Yes, heated debate is going on and there are different views on the topic among Ukrainians as well. My personal observation: Ukrainians become Russians in Russia and Russians become Ukrainians in Ukraine.
Another joke? If its a dress up party don't you realize approx. cost of it and that those money could have been spent better way to benefit average Russian citizens? And if that is preparation for invasion don't you realize Ukrainians will fight back if Russians cross border?
If you wanna believe in invasion I have no means to overturn your opinion. Time will calm you down. Ukraine encounters economic challenges, not the Russian invasion.
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Are you aware that average villagers living close to border where Russia pulling in troops digging trenches and making barricades and obstacles from car tyres (to light up for smoke) to be able slow down troops when invasion starts? Are you aware that across whole Ukraine men aged up to 50 yo re-called for national mobilization of the military? Are you aware that many do not wait for re-call and volunteering in order to be ready on time for invasion? Majority people have no doubts invasion will happen, the only question remained unanswered is when it will begin.
I am aware of a mobilization, yes. Not aware of barricades in the bordering villages, you have any link, does not matter what language...
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As an outsider looking-in..leaving aside political machinations,is there much difference between Ukrainian and Russian mentality ?
Would Russians and Ukrainians go to war against each other ?
Many people from both countries freely intermingle with each other..it would seem like England going to war against Scotland or Wales for example.
I've spoken to quite a few ethnic Russians living in Eastern Ukraine who are totally against Putin's actions,and say they will move to Western Ukraine if Russia invades their cities.
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This is large scale military exercises in western army district of Russia. According to the Defense Minister, the drill was held from February 26 until March 3. 150,000 troops, 880 tanks and 1,200 pieces of military hardware were involved.
If drill have been held from February 26 until March 3 perhaps you could remind your Defense Minister that it have been already 26 days since drill is finished and he could start pull all those troops away from our border instead of keep bringing more?
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Are you aware that many do not wait for re-call and volunteering in order to be ready on time for invasion? Majority people have no doubts invasion will happen, the only question remained unanswered is when it will begin.
Agree that this has definitely happened in my wife's city and the people are sure there will be an invasion at some point. Most of her girlfriends husbands and SO have signed up voluntarily and are preparing for a fight.
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This is plain and simply the larger county beating the sh&te out of the smaller and less affluent country.
Belvis, your pontificating is a bunch of B.S. These people are scared out of their mind because the Russians are as you say, having military exercises on their border. They view your playing exercises as certain death for their men. Can't you understand that and have a bit of sensitivity. It sure doesn't come across. You are the apologist for the Russian government on this forum. If the people on here from Russia were a band, you'd be the entire trumpet section.
Russia is not there to have military exercises, they are their to intimidate and probably invade. Frankly, it makes me want to call my Congressman and have the US do a little intimidation of our own. Maybe put two or three divisions in Latvia. Do military exercises there with drones and field hospitals and armored columns. Big enough to reach Moscow. Accompanied by the stealth weapons that your country has no idea how to defend against. (Gonna land another drone in Crimea? Hahahahahaha!)
Let's see how Russia reacts. You are not the biggest kid in the world. We are. But we're not trying to assimilate other parts of the world into the US. Your country is behaving despicably.
Before you go shooting your mouth off again at these wonderful people, imagine if you were in their shoes with a large army playing invasion on your doorstep. My guess is that you probably would be crying for help. (I had another analogy, but couldn't put it here.)
It is time for you to grow up Belvis and show a little compassion with your words - maybe even apologize for your leaders.
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Ukraine is at the moment is politically unstable, with a revolution happened only a month ago, armed self-defence group, no police and large chunk of population is anti Russian. Any reasonable country having such neighbour would have troops near the border.
In any way since Russian troops are within Russian territories I'd say mind your own business.
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Ranetka,
More than a large chunk is anti-Russian now. :popcorn: Your country is now the pariah of the world.
Do you honestly think that any Russian speakers in Ukraine want to be invaded? Russia is hated. Can't you get that these people are getting ready to lose their lives?
And you're sitting there telling everyone that nothing is happening. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry. But most Ukrainians see the invasion of Crimea as an armed invasion. I tell you what, take all of your troops out of Crimea and then we can claim that your troops are within your own border. Oh, your argument is that such area is now Russia? Well, you just made my rebuttal.
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Maybe put two or three divisions in Latvia. Do military exercises there with drones and field hospitals and armored columns. Big enough to reach Moscow. Accompanied by the stealth weapons that your country has no idea how to defend against. (Gonna land another drone in Crimea? Hahahahahaha!)
Well, since Russia is defenseless against stealth weapon US can dictate their will to Russia. To be honest, I think you're not quite realize that stealth technology is not like raincoat for invisible man.
You are not the biggest kid in the world. We are. But we're not trying to assimilate other parts of the world into the US.
Yeah, the biggest kid in the world killed tens or hundred thousands in Yugoslavia, Lybia, Iraq, Afganistan, completely destroyed these countries. You are. Russia is not your competitor in this area. Though you're not trying to assimilate them, that's truth.
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Ranetka,
More than a large chunk is anti-Russian now. :popcorn: Your country is now the pariah of the world.
Do you honestly think that any Russian speakers in Ukraine want to be invaded? Russia is hated. Can't you get that these people are getting ready to lose their lives?
And you're sitting there telling everyone that nothing is happening. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry. But most Ukrainians see the invasion of Crimea as an armed invasion. I tell you what, take all of your troops out of Crimea and then we can claim that your troops are within your own border. Oh, your argument is that such area is now Russia? Well, you just maRanetka,
More than a large chunk is anti-Russian now. :popcorn: Your country is now the pariah of the world.
Do you honestly think that any Russian speakers in Ukraine want to be invaded? Russia is hated. Can't you get that these people are getting ready to lose their lives?
And you're sitting there telling everyone that nothing is happening. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry. But most Ukrainians see the invasion of Crimea as an armed invasion. I tell you what, take all of your troops out of Crimea and then we can claim that your troops are within your own border. Oh, your argument is that such area is now Russia? Well, you just made my rebuttal.
YOU are contradicting yourself, you are saying in the same paragraph that people are ready to lose their lives in the case of invasion and that they see invasion already happened (while we know that no fight happened whatsoever). One of these two statements have to be factually incorrect.de my rebuttal.
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Ukraine is at the moment is politically unstable, with a revolution happened only a month ago, armed self-defence group, no police and large chunk of population is anti Russian (added by MissAmeno: Ranetka, do you understand why large chunk of population is anti-Russian?). Any reasonable country having such neighbour would have troops near the border.
In any way since Russian troops are within Russian territories I'd say mind your own business.
Perhaps we would mind our own business if you wouldn't try to start war with us.
By the way Russia is sending thugs in Ukraine (to destabilize regions in order to justify invasion) not other way around.
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I tell you what is happening in Russia now.
People are being grateful that protests in Moscow 2 years ago did not turn out to be the same mess as it is now happening in Ukraine. Putin is getting that much support is not due to Crimea annexation, but because Russia escaped Ukrainian scenario.
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Perhaps we would mind our own business if you wouldn't try to start war with us.
By the way Russia is sending thugs in Ukraine (to destabilize regions in order to justify invasion) not other way around.
If Russia wanted war there would be one already. Judging by how many Ukrainian military personnel swapped sides there is little need for war.
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Well, since Russia is defenseless against stealth weapon US can dictate their will to Russia. To be honest, I think you're not quite realize that stealth technology is not like raincoat for invisible man.
Yeah, the biggest kid in the world killed tens or hundred thousands in Yugoslavia, Lybia, Iraq, Afganistan, completely destroyed these countries. You are. Russia is not your competitor in this area. Though you're not trying to assimilate them, that's truth.
The US has made many mistakes. But I will not go through each of the scenarios you just mentioned and explain why you are wrong on most counts. While you make the US an aggressor nation, we have not expanded our contiguous borders since the late 1840s. Russia, on the other hand, is the only aggressor country in the world right now.
But I would like to see you look a babushka from Ukraine in the eye and tell her about your pro-Russian policies of invasion of her homeland and the possible death of her son. Then come back here and point fingers at the US. Your support of the Russian leaders is indefensible on this forum.
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In any way, all is good now, no? An interim President is pro-western, both candidates are pro-western, pro-Russian rallies stopped and activists are in hiding...whats the problem? People are ready to defend the country...Evil Russia has no more influence, what else to ask for? I am sure the new president will sign the Economic part of EU agreement и будет всем счастье.
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The US has made many mistakes. But I will not go through each of the scenarios you just mentioned and explain why you are wrong on most counts. While you make the US an aggressor nation, we have not expanded our contiguous borders since the late 1840s. Russia, on the other hand, is the only aggressor country in the world right now.
But I would like to see you look a babushka from Ukraine in the eye and tell her about your pro-Russian policies of invasion of her homeland and the possible death of her son. Then come back here and point fingers at the US. Your support of the Russian leaders is indefensible on this forum.
.
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I am aware of a mobilization, yes. Not aware of barricades in the bordering villages, you have any link, does not matter what language...
Didn't notice this reply earlier.
No, I do not have links tho I seen it once mentioned briefly on one of video reports on Ukrainian news site.
I know from family member (with a reasonable head on shoulders so have no reason to doubt information) who recently been in several locations across border.
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If drill have been held from February 26 until March 3 perhaps you could remind your Defense Minister that it have been already 26 days since drill is finished and he could start pull all those troops away from our border instead of keep bringing more?
Yes, and it's not as if Moscow has not used military maneuvers to disguise mobilization for invasion of a neighboring country before:
In 1968 the Soviet Union conducted more joint Warsaw Pact exercises than in any other year since the maneuvers began in the early 1960s. The Soviet Union used these exercises to mask preparations for, and threaten, a Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia that would occur unless Dubcek complied with Soviet demands and abandoned his political liberalization program. Massive Warsaw Pact rear services and communications exercises in July and August enabled the Soviet General Staff to execute its plan for the invasion without alerting Western governments. Under the pretext of exercises, Soviet and NSWP divisions were brought up to full strength, reservists were called up, and civilian transportation resources were requisitioned. The cover that these exercises provided allowed the Soviet Union to deploy forces along Czechoslovakia's borders in Poland and East Germany and to demonstrate to the Czechoslovak leadership its readiness to intervene.
On August 20, a force consisting of twenty-three Soviet Army divisions invaded Czechoslovakia.
http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/WarPact.html
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http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1782201.htm
A new law by the new government which prohibits moving in or out of Crimea without special permission. 3 to 9 years prison. In the same law "Any cooperation with Russia or Russian representatives - 10 to 15 years prison."
My understanding it makes thousands of Ukrainians who are now living or working in Russia or having business with Russia criminals?
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Didn't notice this reply earlier.
No, I do not have links tho I seen it once mentioned briefly on one of video reports on Ukrainian news site.
I know from family member (with a reasonable head on shoulders so have no reason to doubt information) who recently been in several locations across border.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17402.msg363047#msg363047
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http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1782201.htm
A new law by the new government which prohibits moving in or out of Crimea without special permission. 3 to 9 years prison. In the same law "Any cooperation with Russia or Russian representatives - 10 to 15 years prison."
My understanding it makes thousands of Ukrainians who are now living or working in Russia or having business with Russia criminals?
She's drinking the Kool Aid again. :rolleyes: Don't you ever wonder about your sources?
There has been no such law passed by the Rada and signed by the acting President. Perhaps, rather than quoting your questionable sources (which you believe more than documented fact) you could point to which section of the law that states those provisions?
You look like one of the Krim babushkas who believe every little rumor they hear. :rolleyes:
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http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1782201.htm
A new law by the new government which prohibits moving in or out of Crimea without special permission. 3 to 9 years prison. In the same law "Any cooperation with Russia or Russian representatives - 10 to 15 years prison."
My understanding it makes thousands of Ukrainians who are now living or working in Russia or having business with Russia criminals?
Can you give direct link to article, I can not find in the link above anything about such law
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She's drinking the Kool Aid again. :rolleyes: Don't you ever wonder about your sources?
There has been no such law passed by the Rada and signed by the acting President. Perhaps, rather than quoting your questionable sources (which you believe more than documented fact) you could point to which section of the law that states those provisions?
You look like one of the Krim babushkas who believe every little rumor they hear. :rolleyes:
It passed on first hearing. We'll see how it goes rom there and if it will be signed or not :-)
What's DOCUMENTED FACT you're talking about? if you have anywhere a list of laws passed as of today I'd be very thankful, would save me time.
I hope you are aware all sources should be questioned as all have their agenda.
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Oh, you mean it WASN'T SIGNED INTO LAW!!!
Then you were lying to the forum. And you knew it from the start! Shame on you.
Just like the people who claimed the Russian language was outlawed. Shame, shame, shame.
I think you need to begin stating what is your opinion and what is fact. You seem to have a substantial problem with the two. Or are you that clueless as to what constitutes enacting a law in Ukraine?
http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1782201.htm
A new law by the new government which prohibits moving in or out of Crimea without special permission. 3 to 9 years prison. In the same law "Any cooperation with Russia or Russian representatives - 10 to 15 years prison."
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Can you give direct link to article, I can not find in the link above anything about such law
This is the address I see in address bar, sorry. The article is dated on 24/03/14, title is "Всех кто сдал Крым- посадить. Киев сегодня"
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Oh, you mean it WASN'T SIGNED INTO LAW!!!
Then you were lying to the forum. And you knew it from the start! Shame on you.
Just like the people who claimed the Russian language was outlawed. Shame, shame, shame.
I think you need to begin stating what is your opinion and what is fact. You seem to have a substantial problem with the two. Or are you that clueless as to what constitutes enacting a law in Ukraine?
That's from a man who can enter the mind of Putin, knows for sure what Russia will do next and even ready to cry over a potential dead son of unknown Crimean babushka. Lol.
What facts are you presenting, remind me?
Don't you think this is an important bit of information for people who may have say TRAVEL from Ukraine to Crimea? Just that little bit more info then saying an American man will be tortured etc? And you did not even check my link or read it with all your knowledge of Russian but dismissed it as unrealiable....So much for balanced view
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So Jone, you did not check the link or read the source but dismissed my post straight away. Well that kind of summarise it. No point talking to you really.
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Once again, Jone. You dismissed the information presented to you without checking it first. You are not worth talking to. Very disappointed.
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This is the address I see in address bar, sorry. The article is dated on 24/03/14, title is "Всех кто сдал Крым- посадить. Киев сегодня"
Thank you. I found it now. Its late today so tomorrow I will try to find more info
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Aside from the fact that you just agreed that such was not law, but a proposed first reading, it is easy to see what is signed into law each day. The Kyiv Post keeps a running summary of new laws that are actually signed by Turchinov. The biggest issue before the Rada right now is the Austerity Bill, not deciding penalties about who goes into Crimea.
Sometimes your lack of understanding of your own government is beyond believing. And you are right. When I saw the masthead for your quoted source, I immediately dismissed it and went to sources that have reported accurately on events. I have two in Russia that I read (in Russian) and two in Ukrainian that I read, but I have those translated. I do not read Ukrainian.
My problem with you, Ranetka, is you say things as if they are fact, when in truth, you knew that such was not an enacted law. That is deceitful.
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Thank you. I found it now. Its late today so tomorrow I will try to find more info
I found a conformation on site vesti.ua. The law is called Закон об оккупированной территории. If I find a link to the text i'll post you a link.
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Aside from the fact that you just agreed that such was not law, but a proposed first reading, it is easy to see what is signed into law each day. The Kyiv Post keeps a running summary of new laws that are actually signed by Turchinov. The biggest issue before the Rada right now is the Austerity Bill, not deciding penalties about who goes into Crimea.
Sometimes your lack of understanding of your own government is beyond believing. And you are right. When I saw the masthead for your quoted source, I immediately dismissed it and went to sources that have reported accurately on events. I have two in Russia that I read (in Russian) and two in Ukrainian that I read, but I have those translated. I do not read Ukrainian.
My problem with you, Ranetka, is you say things as if they are fact, when in truth, you knew that such was not an enacted law. That is deceitful.
I had sai immediately the law is accepted in the first hearing. Despite you dismissing the source I found conformation in Ukrainian source so factually the source was correct. The fact that such law is accepted in the first hearing is important enough info for me. You for example dismissed the facts that maydan activists were paid because no one could present you with the news link.
Your problem with me is that I present an alternative view which you do not like.
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The US has made many mistakes. But I will not go through each of the scenarios you just mentioned and explain why you are wrong on most counts. While you make the US an aggressor nation, we have not expanded our contiguous borders since the late 1840s. Russia, on the other hand, is the only aggressor country in the world right now.
The U.S. is not an aggressor country? Huh?
Russia is the only aggressor country in the world now? Huh?
Just because the U.S. didn't try to annex any of the countries it most recently invaded this century does not mean it wasn't an aggressor country!!!
Get real.
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Ahh jone picking on the foreigners while the English speaking Judas comments unmolested. I think thou dost protest too much. Any more business ops in Putin's Russia? Maybe tea with Lushenko soon?
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Ranetka, here is more detailed info about proposed law (and you can see to what extend it was distorted in Russian news by yourself)
http://postup.brama.com/usual.php?what=77856
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The U.S. is not an aggressor country? Huh?
Russia is the only aggressor country in the world now? Huh?
Just because the U.S. didn't try to annex any of the countries it most recently invaded this century does not mean it wasn't an aggressor country!!!
Get real.
I don't always blame Bush, but when I do, I blame America first, often and for everything and when I can't do that I blame God.
Hope & Change
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You for example dismissed the facts that maydan activists were paid because no one could present you with the news link.
Ranetka, here is a little bit that I hope will explain better why so many Ukrainians these days are so anti-Russian and hopefully open your eyes on 'paid maidan activists' tale.
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?katuvannya_v_zakoni_siloviki_vikradayut_i_znushhayutsya_nad_lyudmi&objectId=402179
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?ukrayina_v_krovi_yuristi_zbirayut_dokazi_nasilstva_u_chornu_knigu&objectId=405894
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Ranetka, here is more detailed info about proposed law (and you can see to what extend it was distorted in Russian news by yourself)
http://postup.brama.com/usual.php?what=77856
I was mostly concerned in up to 15 years for cooperation with Russia or Russian representative and restrictive travel to Crimea . this confirms by your source. your source also points out it is not clear how to define a representative. I guess if become an active law it may give concerns to Ukrainian citizens who currently live in Russia.
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Ranetka, here is a little bit that I hope will explain better why so many Ukrainians these days are so anti-Russian and hopefully open your eyes on 'paid maidan activists' tale.
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?katuvannya_v_zakoni_siloviki_vikradayut_i_znushhayutsya_nad_lyudmi&objectId=402179
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?ukrayina_v_krovi_yuristi_zbirayut_dokazi_nasilstva_u_chornu_knigu&objectId=405894
Thank you. I 'll read your links tomorrow, it takes time for me to read Ukrainian.
I am sure not everyone was paid but see no reason why my relatives would lie to me just the same.
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I had sai immediately the law is accepted in the first hearing. Despite you dismissing the source I found conformation in Ukrainian source so factually the source was correct. The fact that such law is accepted in the first hearing is important enough info for me. You for example dismissed the facts that maydan activists were paid because no one could present you with the news link.
Your problem with me is that I present an alternative view which you do not like.
Of course I am not in favor of you advocating Russian interests when they have a gun to the head of their neighbor. But I am also very cognizant of the fact that you repeatedly say things as fact. And unless called out, you don't recant. This was an easy one. It took less than five seconds after reading it to know that you were quoting Russian propaganda and the source was distorting the truth - LYING. (Why didn't you do your own sniff test on it.) You did not admit it was only first reading of a proposed action that would never pass the Rada until I called you out. Look at the history directly above!
Why should someone have to call BS on you to get you to acknowledge that you are drinking the Kool Aid?
People would take you much more seriously if you chose to actually to think of whether something is being delivered to you to incite you to bad feelings about Ukraine, than to parrot here on the board as something that has happened. This is not the first time you have done this. Unfortunately, I have friends in Crimea who drink the Kool Aid for breakfast, lunch and dinner. They never stop to think if what they are being told is the truth.
If you take time to think in the future, we would much more respect that which you say. And perhaps you will see that Ukraine isn't a country that deserves to have it's men killed through an invasion. (Not likely.)
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The U.S. is not an aggressor country? Huh?
Russia is the only aggressor country in the world now? Huh?
Just because the U.S. didn't try to annex any of the countries it most recently invaded this century does not mean it wasn't an aggressor country!!!
Get real.
Do I think that the US does aggressive things? Absolutely. Do I think my country should not have been in many aggressive situations? Absolutely.
My definition of an aggressor nation is one that conquers other nations to add territory to itself. Sorry that I did not define that in more detail.
Just out of curiosity, Canada Man, how many countries do you think have increased their territory through wars since WWII?
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I was mostly concerned in up to 15 years for cooperation with Russia or Russian representative and restrictive travel to Crimea . this confirms by your source. your source also points out it is not clear how to define a representative. I guess if become an active law it may give concerns to Ukrainian citizens who currently live in Russia.
You misunderstood. Up to 15 years not just for cooperation with Russia or Russian representatives but for cooperation with Russia or Russian representative that is harmful to national interests of Ukraine. And yes, on proposed law is not clearly outlined what kind of activity would fall under such description and because of this and many other issues (some of which potentially could be in breach of human rights) have been decided document requires approval by international law and should be subjected to the examination of the Venice Commission.
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You did not admit it was only first reading of a proposed action that would never pass the Rada until I called you out.
Jone, you are wrong too. It was passed by Rada at first reading but there will be second reading and who knows how many more before it (or any other proposal) becomes law. At this stage all what it means is that various legal bodies will look at it.
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My definition of an aggressor nation is one that conquers other nations to add territory to itself. Sorry that I did not define that in more detail.
My definition of an aggressor nation is one that invades other countries.
Period.
If you want to believe that raping and pillaging a nation, but leaving its borders intact, is somehow more noble than invading and annexing a nation, then so be it.
The U.S. is in a different territorial paradigm than most other countries.
It is unlikely to invade Canada and annex any part of it, although it could easily do so in the future any time it wished to.
Other than that, there's only Mexico to the south. Perhaps they might take a shine to annexing that country at a later date.
Annexing countries half way around the world is a tricky and costly business to maintain.
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50 German made Leopard tanks in Ukraine headed east. Will join the 6 Abrams tanks in theater.
Also more bad news for Vladi, China cut Gazpron out of Turkmenistan gas deal. China sides with the west.
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China sides with the west.
China sides with themselves and does what is in their best interest. While the World's attention is in East Europe and America is looking weak in it's actions, China is trying to own the South China Sea by bullying and starving our allies.
http://news.yahoo.com/philippine-supply-ship-evades-chinese-blockade-090235347.html
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Of course I am not in favor of you advocating Russian interests when they have a gun to the head of their neighbor. But I am also very cognizant of the fact that you repeatedly say things as fact. And unless called out, you don't recant. This was an easy one. It took less than five seconds after reading it to know that you were quoting Russian propaganda and the source was distorting the truth - LYING. (Why didn't you do your own sniff test on it.) You did not admit it was only first reading of a proposed action that would never pass the Rada until I called you out. Look at the history directly above!
Why should someone have to call BS on you to get you to acknowledge that you are drinking the Kool Aid?
People would take you much more seriously if you chose to actually to think of whether something is being delivered to you to incite you to bad feelings about Ukraine, than to parrot here on the board as something that has happened. This is not the first time you have done this. Unfortunately, I have friends in Crimea who drink the Kool Aid for breakfast, lunch and dinner. They never stop to think if what they are being told is the truth.
If you take time to think in the future, we would much more respect that which you say. And perhaps you will see that Ukraine isn't a country that deserves to have it's men killed through an invasion. (Not likely.)
yet again lots of emotionally charged rhetoric with no substance behind. no facts, no contra-arguments, nothing.
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My definition of an aggressor nation is one that invades other countries.
Period.
You mean like Canada?
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Even if allegedly USA financially and politically supported Maidan it is Ukrainians in hundreds of thousands who came out on the streets of Kiev in sub-freezing temperature to fight for their future. Crimea people had a right to express their opinion as anyone else and by the way some from Crimea been on Maidan too and were fighting too.
As you are from Crimea do you know if you will be able to get any visas for traveling to other countries. My understanding is, as Crimea referendum was found illegitimate by other countries, you will not be able to obtain visas to travel those countries. Is this correct?
Yes, correct. According to EU law Russian citizens with Crimean registration can now apply for a Shengen visa only to Kiev embassy, not to Moscow. Don't know what about the USA, heard nothing about this.
Yes, I know about people from Crimea on Maydan. I have two neighbors who were there, one of them is now taking treatment course in a drug hospital, but still happy to have his new chic car.
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People come to the USA embassy in Saint Persburg to gift caravay and say thanks for helping return Crimea home :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz49mf0QBYo
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Justme, what is your view on alleged Russian plan for Ukraine which they hope EC and USA could agree upon in which Crimea will have new independent referendum and have united Ukrainian-Russian government?
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Yes, correct. According to EU law Russian citizens with Crimean registration can now apply for a Shengen visa only to Kiev embassy, not to Moscow. Don't know what about the USA, heard nothing about this.
My understanding only Ukrainian nationals living in Crimea will be able to apply for visa in embassies located in Ukraine, those who took/take Russian passports will not be able simply because they are not Ukrainians anymore. So they would have go through embassies in Russia but they won't be able to receive visas because Crimea is not recognized internationally as a part of Russia.
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/725254
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My understanding only Ukrainian nationals living in Crimea will be able to apply for visa in embassies located in Ukraine, those who took/take Russian passports will not be able simply because they are not Ukrainians anymore. So they would have go through embassies in Russia but they won't be able to receive visas because Crimea is not recognized internationally as a part of Russia.
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/725254 (http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/725254)
I don't understand for whom this law then as very few here will keep their Ukrainian citizenship, it will be extremely uncomfortable for them to remain in Crimea because they won't have any rights here.
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Justme, what is your view on alleged Russian plan for Ukraine which they hope EC and USA could agree upon in which Crimea will have new independent referendum and have united Ukrainian-Russian government?
I didn't hear anyhting about this, if you can please provide a link to the source.
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Speaking of Russian passport. There apparently is (or soon will be) a new law that all Russian folks living abroad or otherwise, will have to disclose their respective dual citizenry. Those who do not submit their notification will be in violation of this 'law' and shall be punishable by doing community service.
How many hours, I don't yet know. Details forthcoming.
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Speaking of Russian passport. There apparently is (or soon will be) a new law that all Russian folks living abroad or
Yes, Duma is in the process of elaborating the law.
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The one bottom line that remains is that RUssia has NOT invaded the greater part of Ukraine....I still don't believe they ever intended to. Why bother to? Who wants the hassle? They got what they wanted through those ports. At this point, it is time to move on. The USA's only business is to facilitate, threats only aggravate the situation.
I believe that when Putin and Obama talk, they are working out details on how to extricate themselves from the situation so each can save enough face to move on...Russia will keep Crimea and go no further at this time.
Fathertime!
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I don't understand for whom this law then as very few here will keep their Ukrainian citizenship, it will be extremely uncomfortable for them to remain in Crimea because they won't have any rights here.
Yeah, that is a tough one. Maybe Ukraine should invade Crimea to protect it's citizens?
The one bottom line that remains is that RUssia has NOT invaded the greater part of Ukraine....I still don't believe they ever intended to. Why bother to? Who wants the hassle? They got what they wanted through those ports. At this point, it is time to move on. The USA's only business is to facilitate, threats only aggravate the situation.
I believe that when Putin and Obama talk, they are working out details on how to extricate themselves from the situation so each can save enough face to move on...Russia will keep Crimea and go no further at this time.
Fathertime!
FT, you have stated this now, a half a dozen times, all the while failing to acknowledge that Russia already had the Crimea Ports. That fact alone negates your statement. Why invade to gain something you already have? Thus, your answer for the illogical invasion has no merit. The reasons Putin has cited for invading "protection and rights of Russian nationals there" has no merit either as they were never in danger. Throw those two excuses out now, why would Putin invade?
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Yeah, that is a tough one. Maybe Ukraine should invade Crimea to protect it's citizens?
Maybe they should. But in fact new authorities even were not willing to take back those Ukrainains who decided to leave Crimea and made them wait for long hours on the border between Crimea and mainland where they were cold and hungry waiting until their motherland will remember about them and let them come back(
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they were never in danger.
They were in danger.
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Speaking of Russian passport. There apparently is (or soon will be) a new law that all Russian folks living abroad or otherwise, will have to disclose their respective dual citizenry. Those who do not submit their notification will be in violation of this 'law' and shall be punishable by doing community service.
How many hours, I don't yet know. Details forthcoming.
This is correct. To be honest when I applied for renewal of Russian passport there was a paragraph in the application form asking about other citizenships. I disclosed mine. So it is not something new but non disclosure will have consequences now.
However using our estimed member Jone's words; (Joke ) SO THIS IS NOT A LAW!!!!! YOU ARE LYING TO THE FORUM!!!!!!
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They were in danger.
Sure they were :rolleyes:
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I will be more gracious. You were stating something as fact, that was not. A law is a law. A proposed bill is not a law. Let's make no mistake about it. You stated that something was a law. It was not. You did not recant until you were called on it. You were drinking the Kool Aid.
As for what new restrictions Russians put on their citizens, it is totally believable. See the difference? It is what is called the 'sniff test'. Most people can smell something to see if it is correct. You have a problem that your nose doesn't work.
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:crackwhip:
FP, I still believe Putin is going to invade. I, along with the majority of Ukrainians.
If not he has polarized a neighbor and made them so pro-west that they will turn totally away from Russia. And all for a Crimean economy that he will have to support. A pariah supporting a pariah. It doesn't make any sense. It will be five years before they get that bridge built from Russia to Crimea. By that time, Crimea will be in open revolt again because of how bad their lives have become. Lucky they have the Russian troops on station.
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I will be more gracious. You were stating something as fact, that was not. A law is a law. A proposed bill is not a law. Let's make no mistake about it. You stated that something was a law. It was not. You did not recant until you were called on it. You were drinking the Kool Aid.
As for what new restrictions Russians put on their citizens, it is totally believable. See the difference? It is what is called the 'sniff test'. Most people can smell something to see if it is correct. You have a problem that your nose doesn't work.
It would have been helpful if you start sharing the information you have instead of useless rhetoric and insights into mine or Putin's mind.
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:crackwhip:
FP, I still believe Putin is going to invade. I, along with the majority of Ukrainians.
If not he has polarized a neighbor and made them so pro-west that they will turn totally away from Russia. And all for a Crimean economy that he will have to support. A pariah supporting a pariah. It doesn't make any sense. It will be five years before they get that bridge built from Russia to Crimea. By that time, Crimea will be in open revolt again because of how bad their lives have become. Lucky they have the Russian troops on station.
jone,
None of the excuses the talking heads discuss for reasoning or Putin's excuses or reasoning makes any sense for the an invasion or annexation. That would only point to that Crimea is the beginning rather than the ending. Western Ukraine should be alarmed. Putin now knows he can invade it and the West will stand idle while he does it. He is waiting on an incident, no doubt, one of his devices or making. It's a cross this line in the sand, then cross this one, then this one and so on.
The Russian economy like most economies in the world right now, is sucking some ass. Putin two years ago was facing down mass protests in Moscow. Now since invading a helpless neighbor has a 70%+ approval rating, riding high on a strong wave of patriotism. An excellent move for his popularity and help the Russians forget their ruble woes. Yeah, I think it's just beginning, too.
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You mean like Canada?
If it will really make you feel better, then yes, Canada is an aggressor nation; a marginal one at best.
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jone,
None of the excuses the talking heads discuss for reasoning or Putin's excuses or reasoning makes any sense for the an invasion or annexation. That would only point to that Crimea is the beginning rather than the ending. Western Ukraine should be alarmed. Putin now knows he can invade it and the West will stand idle while he does it. He is waiting on an incident, no doubt, one of his devices or making. It's a cross this line in the sand, then cross this one, then this one and so on.
The Russian economy like most economies in the world right now, is sucking some ass. Putin two years ago was facing down mass protests in Moscow. Now since invading a helpless neighbor has a 70%+ approval rating, riding high on a strong wave of patriotism. An excellent move for his popularity and help the Russians forget their ruble woes. Yeah, I think it's just beginning, too.
More insights into Putin's mind. Fantastic! BBC analysts are not sure what the next his step is going to be but our esteemed members know for sure....You guys spent any time in a spy school with him or what?
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More insights into Putin's mind.
Enigma of the century :popcorn:
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It would have been helpful if you start sharing the information you have instead of useless rhetoric and insights into mine or Putin's mind.
There is no one on this forum who has insights into your mind. :rolleyes:
As for Russian intentions, from a global perspective, history is against Putin and the moves he has made unless he occupies more of Ukraine. There is no speculation on what Putin is thinking.
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More insights into Putin's mind. Fantastic! BBC analysts are not sure what the next his step is going to be but our esteemed members know for sure....You guys spent any time in a spy school with him or what?
A discussion forum would be rather boring if everyone stated what they (verified fact) *know* as opposed to what they *think*. Don't ya think?
There is always kool-aid distributed to all sides from their local kool-aid vendor.
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from a global perspective, history is against Putin and the moves he has made unless he occupies more of Ukraine.
Thanks for your reply. In your opinion what are the benefits of Russia invading more of Ukraine instead of not and how do you think the situation will develop if Russia does not do any moves towards invading Ukraine.
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A discussion forum would be rather boring if everyone stated what they (verified fact) *know* as opposed to what they *think*. Don't ya think?
There is always kool-aid distributed to all sides from their local kool-aid vendor.
I agree on both counts. Just sharing my opinion, that's all.
I find it's funny how many men here have to ask opinion of others on some random RW's behaviour but Putin;s thought process is clearly so easy to crack...lol
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More insights into Putin's mind. Fantastic! BBC analysts are not sure what the next his step is going to be but our esteemed members know for sure....You guys spent any time in a spy school with him or what?
Well please, tell us why he invaded Ukraine? :popcorn:
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how do you think the situation will develop if Russia does not do any moves towards invading Ukraine.
question was not for me, but still...
Ukraine has a huge external debt and empty budget. It's spring now, time for sowing campaign that was not started in many places because of the last events and economical situation in the country.
They(Ukrainians) are now shouting loud on all the fora that they are now in the position of being pissed off by Russia so all the world countries are standing in queue to help them with money. The USA already gave them money, in return Yacenuk brought to America Ukrainian gold. Question arises - will the USA give more money when Ukraine will run out of this loan which happen very quickly? What other countries will be willing to give money to Ukraine?
Meanwhile winter comes - with reduced crops because spring was lost for sowing and with immense prices for gas and electricity. Pensions and salaries are already reduced in Ukraine in order "to overcome difficult situation due to revolution" as the leaders of the country claim. So, what will be next? :(
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Well please, tell us why he invaded Ukraine? :popcorn:
I find the way your question is formulated is loaded. As you are aware, not everyone consider Crimea's annexation as invasion. I also feel you are not interested in my opinion therefore I am not going to address your question.
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Well please, tell us why he invaded Ukraine? :popcorn:
(http://s020.radikal.ru/i717/1403/61/9bc895a11bfc.jpg) (http://www.radikal.ru)
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So, what will be next? :(
Status quo as was before, but without Crimea.
UA is dependent on transit revenue and low energy prices. Although the west is capable of helping, 'restructuring' UA is not possible, thus any help will be conditional and limited.
RU will then become again the favored 'partner' in trade for political influence... after all RU has energy and 'knows' the 'UA system' best.
I get the feeling that the west is looking at UA as a 'rats nest' of problems and that throwing money in that mouse hole won't help at all.. in fact it will only benefit RU.
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Thank you for asking.
The reality is that Crimea is a peninsula. It gets its electricity and energy from Ukraine. I believe, although it is speculation only, that the coup that took place in the Crimea parliament was not sanctioned by Russia, but that Russia took advantage of it. I think that the entire actions in Crimea were not planned in advance but reacted to by the Kremlin.
Now, Russia has three choices of working with Crimea. 1. Supply the peninsula through ship transports. 2. Negotiate with Ukraine to supply the former autonomous region of it's own country. or 3. Invade Ukraine to create a Russian supply route directly to Crimea.
Given the current state of affairs, do you really think that Ukraine wants to negotiate with Russia to supply Crimea with anything while it is in control of Russia?
Russia has its tit in a wringer right now. It can't supply Crimea and yet it has embraced it as a new section of Russia. By embracing it as Russia, it makes negotiations with Ukraine impossible. No national leader will survive in Ukraine by negotiations with Russia on supplying Crimea. Contrasting that, Russia cannot sit there and have Crimea starve and not have electricity or gas.
So take this one step further: Russia now begins to float ideas of a "Joint Ownership" of Crimea. While that may be novel, it is not based in reality. Ukraine still sees Crimea as part of Ukraine. Stolen from Ukraine. And Russia's actions have pushed Ukraine directly into the arms of the European Union. (Frankly, I think Ukraine aligning with any faction is incorrect. For those who watched the movie, Divergent, Ukraine should be 'Factionless'.)
Ukraine is casting about for alliances that will help defend against Russia. Right now, the big debate in the Rada is whether to invite NATO forces into Ukraine. (Personally, I don't believe NATO would consider sending forces in.)
The longer the standoff continues, the greater the pressure on Russia to act. It really has no choice in supplying Crimea. As I said before, if Russia does not act, in five years, when the bridge is finally built to supply Crimea, it will be too late to effect the outcome.
In the end, Russia only has two choices: 1. Invade; 2. Back off and beg for forgiveness. Which do you think they will do?
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I find the way your question is formulated is loaded. As you are aware, not everyone consider Crimea's annexation as invasion. I also feel you are not interested in my opinion therefore I am not going to address your question.
Annexation with a gun pointed at your head isn't an annexation. It is an invasion but, you call it anything you need to make that koolaid more palatable ;D
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I get the feeling that the west is looking at UA as a 'rats nest' of problems and that throwing money in that mouse hole won't help at all.. in fact it will only benefit RU.
Can't agree more.
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Annexation with a gun pointed at your head isn't an annexation. It is an invasion but, you call it anything you need to make that koolaid more palatable ;D
You know using koolaid reference is not a valid argument.
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Status quo as was before, but without Crimea.
UA is dependent on transit revenue and low energy prices. Although the west is capable of helping, 'restructuring' UA is not possible, thus any help will be conditional and limited.
RU will then become again the favored 'partner' in trade for political influence... after all RU has energy and 'knows' the 'UA system' best.
I get the feeling that the west is looking at UA as a 'rats nest' of problems and that throwing money in that mouse hole won't help at all.. in fact it will only benefit RU.
I like the way you think, BC.
However, as of now, since Crimea is now part of Russia, Russia has cancelled the subsidy for gas to Ukraine for leasing ports it now controls and Ukraine is now paying more for energy than Western Europe. You will quickly see a contract for Fracking in SE Ukraine, if, perchance, Russia doesn't invade. Such would make Ukraine self sufficient in energy in five or six years.
As for transit revenue, Russia is finishing Southern Route connections for gas that bypass Ukraine.
Russia is the natural trading partner for Ukraine. But, as punishment for EuroMaidan, Russia continues to shut down all avenues of trade between the two countries. If Western Europe were not receiving gas through Ukraine, I am confident Russia would already have stopped gas sales to Ukraine altogether.
The Austerity Bill that just was passed through the Rada was required for EU Association. It is similar to the structure of requirements made on other Eastern Block countries that wished to associate with the EU. Those countries survived the austerity and are now thriving (comparatively) so the Ukrainian leaders see their actions as needed but distasteful medicine to cure their ills. Only time will tell.
Ultimately, the true test of Ukraine's future comes at the muzzle of a gun from Russia and the choice of a people at the ballot box. Aside from my opinions on Russia invading, I no longer believe that the Party of Regions can muster a majority for a Presidential candidate, therefore further throwing Ukraine into chaos. (Where are those Crimean votes when you need 'em.) I believe that a less corrupt Party of Regions platform is still the best option to stabilize the country and the region. As I said above, only time will tell.
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Jone,
you certainly have a point. You arguments if I am correct are mainly based on assumption that Russia will not be able to supply electricity without the bridge. It would be interesting to find out if it is true or not, I have seen the explanations how it could be technically done but I personally do not have the knowledge to evaluate if it was technically viable or not.
I agree that joint government is not going to happen.
personally I am of opinion that invading Ukraine is not going to be beneficial to Russia and more think along BC's scenario. So I think Russia will try to avoid further confrontation. As an indirect conformation I think it is quite clear that waiting to invade does not make sense, it should have been done as quick as possible, would you agree?
But of course, anything can happen.
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Jone,
Just saw your second post. Again you have a point. It seems though Ukraine is in considerably worse situation then say Poland was when the EU association measures were first implemented. Not sure if they have 5/6 years to survive.
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Jone,
you certainly have a point. You arguments if I am correct are mainly based on assumption that Russia will not be able to supply electricity without the bridge. It would be interesting to find out if it is true or not, I have seen the explanations how it could be technically done but I personally do not have the knowledge to evaluate if it was technically viable or not.
I agree that joint government is not going to happen.
personally I am of opinion that invading Ukraine is not going to be beneficial to Russia and more think along BC's scenario. So I think Russia will try to avoid further confrontation. As an indirect conformation I think it is quite clear that waiting to invade does not make sense, it should have been done as quick as possible, would you agree?
But of course, anything can happen.
A great part of Ukraine's future includes Russia. But, like a painful family divorce, Ukraine and Russia are like sniping spouses, with Russia carrying a cudgel.
As for electricity and gas in Crimea, I have never seen Russia do anything instantaneously. Upon that idea, my argument stands. As I said, Russia's tit is in a wringer. You are absolutely correct that the longer Russia waits for invasion, the more untenable the situation becomes.
In this waiting period, the West is becoming more emboldened. When the entire situation started, I stated that Putin would have been much smarter to let the initial period play out and then capitalize on the disfunction of the Ukrainian people. (They are notorious for disfunction.) Had Russian not absorbed Crimea, it would have the upper hand in controlling the future destiny of Ukraine. Now, absent invasion, I see Ukraine as pro-West leaning and Russia left with the albatross of Crimea, cut off from any support.
Anyone who remembers the Kursk, knows that Russian commanders will never ask for outside help, even to their own demise. That is the situation right now.
Putin had every opportunity to be the magnanimous neighbor, coming off a successful Olympics. (Remember the Olympics, they seemed so long ago!) Instead he listened to his fears and the opportunity of absorbing a long coveted piece of Russian/Soviet former territory. In so doing, he alienated Russia from the international community and went down a road he could not retreat from. I still contend that his actions were not thought out. By continuously lying to the world, he belittled his former stature and made himself out to be someone not to be trusted as an ally or as a combatant.
The world has been slow to react, but the more time that expires, the more Russia will be pressured to act.
Somewhere, above or below, Tom Clancy must be sitting at his keyboard, writing reams of this stuff for us all to consume.
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Jone,
Just saw your second post. Again you have a point. It seems though Ukraine is in considerably worse situation then say Poland was when the EU association measures were first implemented. Not sure if they have 5/6 years to survive.
That is, of course, the great debate. You have hit the nail on the head with that observation. All Western help depends on someone believing that they can. And all Russian action depends on whether a coherent government can emerge from the ashes. (See, I do read the Russian point of view.)
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Unfortunately Russia could not leave Crimea in hands of an becoming increasingly unfriendly neighbour for a number of reasons, such as being the only Russian warm water port, for example. And of course the will of the people, both in Russia and in Crimea.
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That is, of course, the great debate. You have hit the nail on the head with that observation. All Western help depends on someone believing that they can. And all Russian action depends on whether a coherent government can emerge from the ashes. (See, I do read the Russian point of view.)
Yes, absolutely, agree with both your statements.
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Unfortunately Russia could not leave Crimea in hands of an becoming increasingly unfriendly neighbour for a number of reasons, such as being the only Russian warm water port, for example. And of course the will of the people, both in Russia and in Crimea.
Russia is completing another warm water port, as I am sure you are aware of. The move was reactionary and illicit. Your logic is faulty that because one small area of a country has a majority of patriots to another country, that should not be means for invasion. And that because a country has designs on another for historical or sentimental purposes, that also should not be means for invasion.
The move is the move of a one party government with no checks and balances. A free press would have debated successfully the question. Of course, who am I to say? Where was the US's free press or two party government when the US invaded Iraq?
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Unfortunately Russia could not leave Crimea in hands of an becoming increasingly unfriendly neighbour for a number of reasons, such as being the only Russian warm water port, for example. And of course the will of the people, both in Russia and in Crimea.
"...the will of the people...in Crimea."
That's the important aspect for me if that's indeed truly the will of the people. If the inhabitants of Crimea want to be part of Russia (or even a free and independent nation of Crimea) then they have the human right to do what needs to be done to enable self determination, IMO.
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"...the will of the people...in Crimea."
That's the important aspect for me if that's indeed truly the will of the people. If the inhabitants of Crimea want to be part of Russia (or even a free and independent nation of Crimea) then they have the human right to do what needs to be done to enable self determination, IMO.
I don't understand your post, Dave.
Are you saying that the referendum followed the will of the people? That question will be debated into the next century.
While I truly believe that in a perfect world the majority of Crimeans would have preferred to be affiliated with Russia, such things don't happen overnight and usually require much more forethought. There are many other issues to consider and contend with than where someone's loyalties lie. Instead we see the patriotic mumbo jumbo, but no time for true self determination.
What are your thoughts on this? It was indeterminate from your post.
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Given the current state of affairs, do you really think that Ukraine wants to negotiate with Russia to supply Crimea with anything while it is in control of Russia?
It may come as supprise to you but Ukraine will continue to supply Crimea with everything. The difference may be the inceased price for resourses. The explanation would require too extensive post Nevertheless Russia will build two bridges to solidify the communication lines.
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What Putin wants is obvious :rolleyes:
Ukraine, preferably whole but if not achievable minimum east and south east of Ukraine.
However he doesn't want just Ukraine, many other countries on his list of want.
Only blind Russians to whom have been served 'pre-cooked' views on events in the world for a long time do not know what Putin wants. They under some childish illusion their president cares for their interests and wants what is best for Russia. In reality Putin seeks glory, somehow he believes by aggression towards other countries he will make Russia once again mighty. And average Russians remain wondering why are they disliked by other nations.
Naive people of Crimea believed Russian president cares for them and wants bring them back to motherland. How silly of them. Right now they are just a game card Putin is trying to use. Suddenly Russia is the one who wants new referendum in Crimea and will withdraw every single military out of Crimea including Russian Navy in exchange for new constitution for Ukraine (yeah, constitution that would allow him take each region of Ukraine one by one :rolleyes:). Narcissistic Sociopath!
http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_rossiya-potrebuet-ot-ukrainy-navsegda-otkazatsya-ot-chlenstva-v-es-i-nato-i-stat-federaciej-ekspert/549878
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Russia is completing another warm water port, as I am sure you are aware of. The move was reactionary and illicit. Your logic is faulty that because one small area of a country has a majority of patriots to another country, that should not be means for invasion. And that because a country has designs on another for historical or sentimental purposes, that also should not be means for invasion.
The move is the move of a one party government with no checks and balances. A free press would have debated successfully the question. Of course, who am I to say? Where was the US's free press or two party government when the US invaded Iraq?
Well I think the pivotal here are two points:
1. Do you accept the right of Autonomous republic to self determination without agreement of central government (Kosovo, anyone?)
2. And another is if the referendum was indeed the expression of will of the people (I think there is a general agreement that majority of Crimeans indeed wanted to be part of Russia, at least that's what BBC's reporting)
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Perhaps worth a read.......
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/03/the_enigmatic_russian_soul.html
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I don't understand your post, Dave.
Are you saying that the referendum followed the will of the people? That question will be debated into the next century.
While I truly believe that in a perfect world the majority of Crimeans would have preferred to be affiliated with Russia, such things don't happen overnight and usually require much more forethought. There are many other issues to consider and contend with than where someone's loyalties lie. Instead we see the patriotic mumbo jumbo, but no time for true self determination.
What are your thoughts on this? It was indeterminate from your post.
My comment wasn't directed at the current state of affairs but rather tossing a mention to the self determination/governance ideal (which is why I deleted the references to Russian interests). Whether or not a group will succeed in creating self determination is a different subject.
The referendum may be legitimate or it may have the predetermined outcome of those counting the votes.
Either way, I don't think this will go as well for "Crimeans" as they currently think/hope/wish it will.
I agree with BC if the situation remains isolated to Crimea. If, however, Russia decides to invade other parts of Ukraine, the chance of NATO involvement will rise significantly.
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Well I think the pivotal here are two points:
1. Do you accept the right of Autonomous republic to self determination without agreement of central government (Kosovo, anyone?) YES
2. And another is if the referendum was indeed the expression of will of the people (I think there is a general agreement that majority of Crimeans indeed wanted to be part of Russia, at least that's what BBC's reporting) Indeterminate - See below
I believe, if everything were laid bare and totally understood, not only about the actions that caused the referendum, the illicit presence of the Russian forces (Putin would never even admit that they were there) and the future prospects on going on without Ukraine's ability to supply the peninsula, calmer heads would have prevailed.
Does that mean that Crimea would not have voted for a referendum to separate from Ukraine? I don't know. I don't think anyone does.
But the censorship of the press and the propaganda fed the Crimean people, coupled with the patriotic fervor introduced by the landing of Russian troops led to a mass action by the population that (while based in loyalty to Russia) was both reactionary and not thought out.
Keep in mind that only 4% of the population supported the eventual leaders of the coup in the last election cycle. That should tell you that much of what happened was artificially created.
I believe that rational thought of an autonomous region should include time as a prerequisite before such a plebiscite should be held. Remember as well, that when the authorities thought that a counter insurgency might be occurring, they moved up the vote so that the fervor was still at its zenith.
Somehow, I can't get the pictures out of my mind of the billboards with Nazi images on one side and the Russian flag on the other. That is pure emotionalism and plays directly into what I believe.
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I think until very recently Crimean had more access to Ukrainian press then they had to Russian press. So I can not see how a few days of billboards could have influence people's opinion.
I do feel like many foreigners you overestimate influence Russian press have on Russian people. I know you understand Russian, if you just spend a day reading most popular blogs you would see people are not shy in expressing different opinions.
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Given the nature of the Russian women on this forum and their shy demeanor, I never would have thought that possible. :)
I should add, however, that if what you say is true, it would have to have been true six months down the road. When all of the impact of separation with Ukraine was well known. Other rogue states have had plebiscites. Very few seek to disassociate. The referendum was an emotional response that was encouraged and emboldened by the presence of Russian troops. I stand on my statements of artificially created and based on emotionalism.
That is not to say that such separation through referendum could not have happened. But, you, too, have to agree that such emotionalism was in play and the result was, at best, staged. Wouldn't if have been a much stronger statement if the results came from true determination? Wouldn't that have created a society that did not totally alienate 40% of the population?
Our world society has to grow up at some point in time. Crimea is a perfect example of last century techniques from a society that is still operating in the last century.
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Thanks for the conversation, Jone.
it was interesting to find out we agree on quite a lot of things.
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Jone,
you certainly have a point. You arguments if I am correct are mainly based on assumption that Russia will not be able to supply electricity without the bridge. It would be interesting to find out if it is true or not, I have seen the explanations how it could be technically done
Ukraine already cut 50% of electricity to Crimea.Last we week we passed evenings in total darkness. Now that a lot of generators were delivered from Russia to each city in Crimea we are perfectly ok :)
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UA is dependent on transit revenue and low energy prices. Although the west is capable of helping, 'restructuring' UA is not possible, thus any help will be conditional and limited....
Other factors in support of this position:
1. Corruption is rampant and will inhibit economic development initiatives.
2. Inflation will increase. The IMF has offered $18Bn in loans over two years but requires austere economic reforms (50% increase in price of energy). The EU has $11Bn in addition to the IMF with similar requirements. Energy price increases will accelerate inflation, and Ukrainian citizens don't have personal savings to deal with the inflation. Other austerity measures include high taxes on tobacco and alcohol, reduction of government, etc. This could spawn another wave of social unrest.
I get the feeling that the west is looking at UA as a 'rats nest' of problems and that throwing money in that mouse hole won't help at all.. in fact it will only benefit RU.
A rats nest and a basket case. The US has much disappointing experience with a similar albeit smaller version - namely Haiti. One would think Ukraine could be the same except for some key differences: the Ukrainian citizen is far better educated, Ukraine has some natural resources particularly its fertile cropland, and ......(please help me)
It is up to the Ukrainian citizen to decide their future. They have a choice. It starts by empowering the best people in May. That is not far away. Who are the leading candidates? Can they accomplish this difficult job? If not, BC will be correct and Russia need not invade eastern Ukraine - just wait for the citizens to beckon and then walk in.
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I think until very recently Crimean had more access to Ukrainian press then they had to Russian press. So I can not see how a few days of billboards could have influence people's opinion.
Nothing could influence people's opinion in Crimea, because it was firmly formed long ago before the events. I just smile reading how Ukrainians say that there were only 30% for Russia here :D Such stupidity can say only people who never lived here. And for sure everyone who would witnessed the events of referendum day and night when the results were announced wouldn't dare to say anything more.Men were crying, people that don't know each other were hugging and celebrating each other with final return home. And all these people are quite aware how difficult the following years would be, that half of us would lose their jobs, that money that people saved would become trash and many many other things. Still I don't remember such happy smiling faces as these days.
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Who are the leading candidates? Can they accomplish this difficult job? If not, BC will be correct and Russia need not invade eastern Ukraine - just wait for the citizens to beckon and then walk in.
Their next president will become Poroshenko. :( [size=78%]No comments.[/size]
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[quote author=Faux pas
FT, you have stated this now, a half a dozen times, all the while failing to acknowledge that Russia already had the Crimea Ports. That fact alone negates your statement. Why invade to gain something you already have?
[/quote]
Well faux pas...while many of the posters remain convinced this is only the beginning of a great invasion..my belief is it is not..you have repeated numerous times that Russia already had access to the ports which is true (for now) but they likely felt there was no guarantee in 5 years or 25 years they would always have access. For all we know Ukraine could join forces with the west and that could pit Russia in jeapardy, at least from their prospective. If you follow that reasoning,then it makes sense what they have done and that they feel they are done.
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What Putin wants is obvious :rolleyes:
Ukraine, preferably whole but if not achievable minimum east and south east of Ukraine.
However he doesn't want just Ukraine, many other countries on his list of want.
Only blind Russians to whom have been served 'pre-cooked' views on events in the world for a long time do not know what Putin wants. They under some childish illusion their president cares for their interests and wants what is best for Russia. In reality Putin seeks glory, somehow he believes by aggression towards other countries he will make Russia once again mighty. And average Russians remain wondering why are they disliked by other nations.
Naive people of Crimea believed Russian president cares for them and wants bring them back to motherland. How silly of them. Right now they are just a game card Putin is trying to use. Suddenly Russia is the one who wants new referendum in Crimea and will withdraw every single military out of Crimea including Russian Navy in exchange for new constitution for Ukraine (yeah, constitution that would allow him take each region of Ukraine one by one :rolleyes:). Narcissistic Sociopath!
http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_rossiya-potrebuet-ot-ukrainy-navsegda-otkazatsya-ot-chlenstva-v-es-i-nato-i-stat-federaciej-ekspert/549878
For your young age, you seem to have studied history and the actions of the USSR during the cold war. Putin, like his predecessors have turned the clock back to negotiate only with military action. All of the blabbering from Europe and the US is a joke to him. He will use it to his advantage where he can. Putin's invasion of Crimea could have been stopped by only one thing...... A military force that would have driven him back across the border.
Both the UK and the US should be ashamed! The Budapest memorandum was signed by both parties and guaranteed Ukraine (including Crimea), protection of their sovereignty and borders when they gave up nuclear weapons. The agreement had no expiration date. Both should have immediately offered Ukraine military assistance (even if it were only weapons to defend themselves).
It is true that the American people are tired of foreign wars. Among many of Obama's failures was to fail to educate the American public that we had a signed obligation to protect Ukraine from the invasion of Russia. Public sentiment may have swayed toward assisting Ukraine if a public case had been made. Instead, Obama chose to do what he does best.....run his mouth and then look stupid after he is ignored.
The Brits put up the lamest excuse of all. The banks in London holding the ill gotten gains of the oligarchs of Russia plus the trade with Russia is more important than honoring the commitments they made to Ukraine. Perhaps the next time the UK seeks American military assistance, we should sit on our hands and just talk about it.
It seems the American public is starting to wise up to the huge expense of our military which is largely used to be the 'worlds policeman' while other nations have weak militarys and depend on the good old USA to come to their aid. IMO, if Europe does not pay the American taxpayers for the protection we provide them, we should retract our support and stay home. The 'free lunch' should be ended now!
The "new Russia" expansionism is a lot closer to Europe than it is to America. As Putin heads west, please remember your lack of support to stop him (at Crimea) before he has a chance to rebuild his military to what it once was before the breakup of the USSR. It's the same old cold war as before. The only difference is that Russia rekindled the Cold War and did so because he knows all western nations are weak and will not stand up to him.
Arguing about the 'will of the people' of Crimea is ridiculous at this stage. Thanks to the bedlam Putin created with his insurgents, military without insignias, coup he directed in Crimea, and installation of his puppet in government of Crimea, the closing of all independent TV stations, it is impossible to know what the will of the people is and would have been without his interference.
How much of the blame for the invasion of Crimea is the fault of the interim government in Kiev? Good question, but consider these issues....
The interim government in Kiev has many challenges. First, it must attempt to actually have government services restored for ordinary citizens. Government offices must become functional again. The banks need to normalize.
The fight against corruption needs to continue in a major way. Kiev has already demonstrated they are willing to continue doing so. The people demand it, and the candidates are well aware of it. Unlike Russia where it is accepted by the people, the Ukrainians have had their fill of it and demand accountability.
The interim government needs to reign in the right wing extremists and get them to realize that compromises are necessary for the future unity of Ukraine.
The Russian provocateurs need to be rounded up and exported back to Russia. Already this is partially being done at the borders by preventing hundreds of troublemakers from entering recently.
The critical financial crisis in the economy of Ukraine is perhaps the highest priority for the interim government. The loans and loan guarantees culminating now from the West will allow the government to function while it gets the restructuring underway.
It is clear that the Ukraine military was decimated under Yanuckovich. The inability to respond to the takeover of Crimea was a clear indication of this. The interim government is doing what it can with the scarce resources available to rebuild the military. This is a critical area that the West could contribute a lot if it wished to. Providing weapons and training is all that is necessary. The Ukraine people will fight with whatever they can muster to defend Ukraine.
In addition, it is imperative that the interim government ensure that the upcoming election is fair and honest, as observed by international monitoring bodies.
There is a lot on the plate of the interim government in Kiev. It would be nice to expect miracles in only a month or two to resolve all the problems on their plate. Realistically, it is not going to happen overnight and happen without any mistakes. The only major mistakes I see so far, is the failure of the Ministry of Defense for not issuing any orders to the troops in Crimea leaving them stranded and semi-captured. The second mistake was the Rada passing the law making Ukrainian the official language. This flew in the face of all Russian speakers that for generations spoke Russian. It was a stupid mistake. Fortunately, the interim president vetoed the law and it did not get implemented.
Putin's excuse for invading Crimea........
The excuse to 'protect the Russian speaking population in Crimea' was the most stupid words I can remember coming out of the Kremlin in my lifetime. What is even more amazing is that the Russian's gobble this up as though it was fact. Prior to Putin's moves to create instability and eventual overthrow of the Crimea government, there were no problems of Russian speakers in Crimea needing protection!!!! Period!
My wife and I own property in Crimea, we vacation in Crimea. Never did we see any issues between Russian speaking Ukrainians and Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians. From everything I saw plus my wife's opinion, Ukrainians in Crimea considered themselves Ukrainians not transplanted Russians. It appeared that Crimeans did have the same complaints about the corrupt government of Yanuckovich that the mainland Ukrainians had (have). In other words, the Crimeans had no problems with each other until Putin stirred the pot!
It is unfortunate that the new government in Kiev (after the upcoming elections) did not have a chance to demonstrate all the reforms they have planned, as well as allow Crimea to assess the changes before invasion by Russia. Putin no doubt saw this as a large risk. His invasion of Crimea was cleverly planned to not allow the new government to function where it would be more difficult to stir up trouble and enlist locals in his aim to take over Crimea.
There are several well written articles that describe why Putin needs to take over eastern and southern Ukraine. I am not convinced he will not invade mainland Ukraine if he cannot get the west and Ukraine government to give him what he wants. The topics have not been discussed much either on the forum or the media. If I am able to find them, I will add to a future post.
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Jone,
you certainly have a point. You arguments if I am correct are mainly based on assumption that Russia will not be able to supply electricity without the bridge. It would be interesting to find out if it is true or not, I have seen the explanations how it could be technically done but I personally do not have the knowledge to evaluate if it was technically viable or not.
The assumption is wrong. Russia could supply Crimea with electricity without a bridge. It could be done with a submerged cable without a bridge, or it could be done by building power plants. The only issue would be what energy source to use to fuel them. Gas, via a submerged pipeline, LNG via tankers to Sevestopol, fuel oil via tankers to the port. Long term, it would be best to have a fuel source that does not depend on tankers. In the short term there are several options that could serve as an interim solution.
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The assumption is wrong. Russia could supply Crimea with electricity without a bridge. It could be done with a submerged cable without a bridge, or it could be done by building power plants. The only issue would be what energy source to use to fuel them. Gas, via a submerged pipeline, LNG via tankers to Sevestopol, fuel oil via tankers to the port. Long term, it would be best to have a fuel source that does not depend on tankers. In the short term there are several options that could serve as an interim solution.
I defer to my engineering friend.
However, aside from electricity and gas, Russia will have to do a great job of importing lots of summer tourists, too. :(
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The assumption is wrong. Russia could supply Crimea with electricity without a bridge. It could be done with a submerged cable without a bridge, or it could be done by building power plants. The only issue would be what energy source to use to fuel them. Gas, via a submerged pipeline, LNG via tankers to Sevestopol, fuel oil via tankers to the port. Long term, it would be best to have a fuel source that does not depend on tankers. In the short term there are several options that could serve as an interim solution.
Excellent points. It would appear Russia can get critical supplies to the peninsula. If the two nations can kiss and makeup then Ukraine can possibly profit by supplying utilities to the region...that way both countries can win.
Fathertime!
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Nothing could influence people's opinion in Crimea, because it was firmly formed long ago before the events. I just smile reading how Ukrainians say that there were only 30% for Russia here :D Such stupidity can say only people who never lived here. And for sure everyone who would witnessed the events of referendum day and night when the results were announced wouldn't dare to say anything more.Men were crying, people that don't know each other were hugging and celebrating each other with final return home. And all these people are quite aware how difficult the following years would be, that half of us would lose their jobs, that money that people saved would become trash and many many other things. Still I don't remember such happy smiling faces as these days.
Your Russian propaganda is bringing tears to my eyes. All those poor Russians that now feel at home with mother Russia. ;D
All these tear jerking Russians could go back and forth to mother Russia whenever they wanted to! It was not necessary to invade Crimea for them to go to Russia whenever they chose to.
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Well faux pas...while many of the posters remain convinced this is only the beginning of a great invasion..my belief is it is not..you have repeated numerous times that Russia already had access to the ports which is true (for now) but they likely felt there was no guarantee in 5 years or 25 years they would always have access. For all we know Ukraine could join forces with the west and that could pit Russia in jeapardy, at least from their prospective. If you follow that reasoning,then it makes sense what they have done and that they feel they are done.
FT, you continue to miss the point. Russia gained use of the ports through negotiation. There was no indication that it wouldn't have been continued well into the future. Ukraine had nothing to gain by shutting Russia out of Crimea. All of the sudden invasion in favored over negotiations?
The invasion has happened. There is no win/win for either country especially, Ukraine
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Their next president will be Poroshenko.
Quite likely. He will certainly be in a runoff. His support from Klitschko will help him.
He will not be someone who is liked by the Kremlin. He has previously advocated membership in NATO and affiliation with the EU.
The Chocolate King is a favorable alternative to those who have already been in power. Who will you vote for JustMe? Oops. Sorry. I forgot. You don't have a say, anymore than I do.
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Excellent points. It would appear Russia can get critical supplies to the peninsula. If the two nations can kiss and makeup then Ukraine can possibly profit by supplying utilities to the region...that way both countries can win.
Fathertime!
You may be smart, but sometimes you are somewhat obtuse. The vast number of Ukrainians are going to elect someone who is pro-West as a direct result of Russia's incursion into Crimea. They are starting a long and arduous change, if allowed.
If not allowed, they will be invaded. In no way does this ever come out where Russia and a free Ukraine are kissed and made up. We are seeing a plain and simple divorce. And the only issue outstanding is whether it will be bloody, with lots of fighting, or whether they just never talk to each other with the exception of child support and visitation rights.
Your win/win scenario has NEVER been in play.
Russia, more than ever, is in a very bad situation.
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Here is the link to some interesting facts about Ukrainian production of Russian military weapons and parts.
Hopefully the Kiev government will immediately quit supplying Russia these parts, move the engineering to a safe place, and negotiate with the West to manufacture goods to make up the losses of income.
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-ukraine-military-equipment/25312911.html
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Both the UK and the US should be ashamed! The Budapest memorandum was signed by both parties and guaranteed Ukraine (including Crimea), protection of their sovereignty and borders when they gave up nuclear weapons. The agreement had no expiration date. Both should have immediately offered Ukraine military assistance (even if it were only weapons to defend themselves).
It is true that the American people are tired of foreign wars. Among many of Obama's failures was to fail to educate the American public that we had a signed obligation to protect Ukraine from the invasion of Russia.
Doug, you make many good points in your post. However, why are you persisting in repeating the above which is false?
The USA never agreed to do anything for Ukraine other than not cause it trouble ourselves; to seek UN action if Ukraine is subject to nuclear attack; and to consult if questions arose concerning the Budapest Memorandum.
Russia has gone back on their word concerning the Budapest Memorandum. But USA nor UK is obligated to do anything.
Note: I think USA should do something; but they are not obligated to do so under Budapest Memorandum.
http://www.cfr.org/arms-control-disarmament-and-nonproliferation/budapest-memorandums-security-assurances-1994/p32484
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ML,
I read the link you provided. It seems that the word nuclear is much more prevalent than the version I read earlier. In any case, I agree with you. Based upon this link it would support your interpretation.
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Who are the leading candidates? Can they accomplish this difficult job?
Chocolate king Petro Poroshenko backed by world heavyweight boxer Vitali Klitschko and Yulia Tymoshenko. Yulia would be a mistake since she couldn't get the job done before. Both candidates are pro West and if they listen to advice, they may be able to have some Western style economic success in Ukraine.
I have not heard any names of pro Russian candidates. Although dialogue has increased between Obama and Putin, Putin's troops still are on the move and Russian troops in Georgia has been on the move too. With increased dialogue, Putin has increased covert operations in eastern Ukraine and may try a "Crimea" before the May 25 election. This tells me Putin may have a difficult time finding a pro Russian candidate that can win it all so he'll have to achieve his goals with baby steps.
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As of right now, the reason Russia has threatening troops on Ukraine borders is to provide scare so that Russia can obtain its demands which are:
1) Ukraine not join NATO.
2) Russian be equal national language in Ukraine.
3) Ukraine adopt a Federalist system of governing where each oblast can hold referendums.
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As of right now, the reason Russia has threatening troops on Ukraine borders is to provide scare so that Russia can obtain its demands ....
If Russia becomes more appealing than the West for nations to partner up with, they wouldn't need to threaten anybody.
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FT, you continue to miss the point. Russia gained use of the ports through negotiation. There was no indication that it wouldn't have been continued well into the future. Ukraine had nothing to gain by shutting Russia out of Crimea. All of the sudden invasion in favored over negotiations?
The invasion has happened. There is no win/win for either country especially, Ukraine
Hey fp...I realize you think I'm missing your point but that is not the case I do get your point but I just don't see it that way.
I think putin felt there was good reason to invade Crimea. Perhaps he realized that he wasn't going to take his chances. It was a desperation move bit his options weren't good in his mind...at least that is how iy looks to me.
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You may be smart, but sometimes you are somewhat obtuse. The vast number of Ukrainians are going to elect someone who is pro-West as a direct result of Russia's incursion into Crimea. They are starting a long and arduous change, if allowed.
If not allowed, they will be invaded. In no way does this ever come out where Russia and a free Ukraine are kissed and made up. We are seeing a plain and simple divorce. And the only issue outstanding is whether it will be bloody, with lots of fighting, or whether they just never talk to each other with the exception of child support and visitation rights.
Your win/win scenario has NEVER been in play.
Russia, more than ever, is in a very bad situation.
It doesn't matter if I am smart or obtuse so I don't know why you have to preface your post like that. If we discuss the points we can later see who made the right predictions. Last we you insisted this was the beginning and an invasion was coming. For the past several weeks ive stood almost alone in stating I believed there would be no big invasion. I still believe there is a solution where both sides win.
I also believe that Ukraine was slanting west before this invasion, not because of it.
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As of right now, the reason Russia has threatening troops on Ukraine borders is to provide scare so that Russia can obtain its demands which are:
1) Ukraine not join NATO.
2) Russian be equal national language in Ukraine.
3) Ukraine adopt a Federalist system of governing where each oblast can hold referendums.
I think you forgot.....Keeping Crimea.
Also, 3) Ukraine adopt a Federalist system of governing where each oblast can hold referendums. LOL, right after Russia demonstrates the same thing.
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It doesn't matter if I am smart or obtuse so I don't know why you have to preface your post like that. If we discuss the points we can later see who made the right predictions. Last we you insisted this was the beginning and an invasion was coming. For the past several weeks ive stood almost alone in stating I believed there would be no big invasion. I still believe there is a solution where both sides win.
I also believe that Ukraine was slanting west before this invasion, not because of it.
FT,
I can't understand how you can consider this a win/win when the country was invaded and part of it overthrown by a dictator.
In any case, you might want to read this Forbes article and see if it modifies your position on the issue.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/03/26/mr-putin-tear-down-that-potemkin-village/
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This CNN news article interviews families and mothers of sons on the front lines. The mothers believe their sons will be killed. For those of you reading this forum for entertainment, here is the real dialogue that happens every day in Eastern Ukraine.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-russia-border-tension/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
While I have advocated an opinion of Russia as an aggressor, I still have friends on both sides of the border and have no wife or girlfriend in Ukraine. But I believe that after seeing what Russia is now trying to impose on Ukraine: Federalism so that Russia can tear up Ukraine, piece by piece, Russia will invade as soon as the preference of the people is made known.
The Russian speaking areas of Ukraine no longer hold the majority with the absence of Crimea. So Ukraine will elect a pro-Western government. As soon as that becomes apparent, the tanks will roll.
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FT, you continue to miss the point. Russia gained use of the ports through negotiation. There was no indication that it wouldn't have been continued well into the future.
There was more than clear indication of this, as Ukraine wanted to enter NATO and have its base on the Ukrainian territtory.
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And the only issue outstanding is whether it will be bloody, with lots of fighting
Unfortunately it will be this way if it comes to invasion. There are a lot of people in Ukraine to shoot at the backs of Ukrainians.
30 of March
Kharkiv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAAdWbCDBP8&app=desktop
Odessa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYQA2AZbqmQ&app=desktop
Donetsk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jElEuk_Ogc&app=desktop
Lugansk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhVleyMpTYY&app=desktop
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I have not heard any names of pro Russian candidates.
Oleg Zarev
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Unfortunately it will be this way if it comes to invasion. There are a lot of people in Ukraine to shoot at the backs of Ukrainians.
30 of March
Kharkiv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAAdWbCDBP8&app=desktop
Odessa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYQA2AZbqmQ&app=desktop
Donetsk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jElEuk_Ogc&app=desktop
Lugansk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhVleyMpTYY&app=desktop
Sounds like a threat to me. Are you sure the FSB doesn't pay your bills?
On one side you are advocating revolt and on the other side you are saying if the Ukrainians defend themselves, they will be shot in the back.
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Sounds like a threat to me. Are you sure the FSB doesn't pay your bills?
You are mistaken, it's just a mere statement of facts without any emotional coloring from my part.
My bills are paid from RF budget since recently.
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http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1782201.htm (http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1782201.htm)
A new law by the new government which prohibits moving in or out of Crimea without special permission. 3 to 9 years prison. In the same law "Any cooperation with Russia or Russian representatives - 10 to 15 years prison."
My understanding it makes thousands of Ukrainians who are now living or working in Russia or having business with Russia criminals?
Nope. It makes them Russians.
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You for example dismissed the facts that maydan activists were paid because no one could present you with the news link.
Ranetka, here is a little bit that I hope will explain better why so many Ukrainians these days are so anti-Russian and hopefully open your eyes on 'paid maidan activists' tale.
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?katuvannya_v_zakoni_siloviki_vikradayut_i_znushhayutsya_nad_lyudmi&objectId=402179 (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?katuvannya_v_zakoni_siloviki_vikradayut_i_znushhayutsya_nad_lyudmi&objectId=402179)
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?ukrayina_v_krovi_yuristi_zbirayut_dokazi_nasilstva_u_chornu_knigu&objectId=405894 (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?ukrayina_v_krovi_yuristi_zbirayut_dokazi_nasilstva_u_chornu_knigu&objectId=405894)
Talking about paid activists in Maidan, check out these hired staff.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html)
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I don't understand for whom this law then as very few here will keep their Ukrainian citizenship, it will be extremely uncomfortable for them to remain in Crimea because they won't have any rights here.
Is that ethnic cleansing?
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The one bottom line that remains is that RUssia has NOT invaded the greater part of Ukraine....I still don't believe they ever intended to. Why bother to? Who wants the hassle? They got what they wanted through those ports.
Fathertime!
Yep.
Russia begins to understand costs of Putin’s Crimean adventure (http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11601.html)
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Maybe they should. But in fact new authorities even were not willing to take back those Ukrainains who decided to leave Crimea and made them wait for long hours on the border between Crimea and mainland where they were cold and hungry waiting until their motherland will remember about them and let them come back(
Sure. Let's see the link please.
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:crackwhip:
FP, I still believe Putin is going to invade. I, along with the majority of Ukrainians.
If not he has polarized a neighbor and made them so pro-west that they will turn totally away from Russia. And all for a Crimean economy that he will have to support. A pariah supporting a pariah. It doesn't make any sense. It will be five years before they get that bridge built from Russia to Crimea. By that time, Crimea will be in open revolt again because of how bad their lives have become. Lucky they have the Russian troops on station.
Jone, IMHO Putin thought that Ukraine, or at least eastern Ukraine would welcome Russia with open arms and he got nothing.
Now, he has a major blow to his budget (Crimea) and nothing else to show for. Pretty (damn) soon the average Russian is going to feel the pinch as to why he had to buy the cow when he was getting the milk for free.
So, the only way he can save face (and show his pecs again so the young maidens get really wet) is to be a man and invade Ukraine and save them from the Ukrainian scum, er..., brothers.
But the maidens should not dispair, It's a work (Thugs) in progress.
Soccer Hooligans Prep Ukraine for Putin (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/20/soccer-hooligans-prep-ukraine-for-putin.html)
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If it will really make you feel better, then yes, Canada is an aggressor nation; a marginal one at best.
FP: ANSWER THE QUESTION
CM: YOU WANT THE TRUTH?
FP: YES, I'M ENTITLED TO THE TRUTH
CM: YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH. YES, CANADA WAS AN AGGRESSOR NATION.
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The Russian speaking areas of Ukraine no longer hold the majority with the absence of Crimea. So Ukraine will elect a pro-Western government. As soon as that becomes apparent, the tanks will roll.
I thought the same earlier. Now I wonder.
Ukraine will presumably vote to try and become like the West, yet to do so will require reduction of corruption (is such possible) and implementation of austerity programs (with much hardships on the common citizen such as inflation). This is not a short term task. How many Ukrainians will be content to go through years and years of such, especially if life improves in Crimea over the short term?
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There is no one on this forum who has insights into your mind. :rolleyes:
As for Russian intentions, from a global perspective, history is against Putin and the moves he has made unless he occupies more of Ukraine. There is no speculation on what Putin is thinking.
Keyword here is HISTORY.
Since people are NOT mind readers, in order to understand one's "opponent" you have to study his moves. Sometimes previous examples from other people are eeriely similar.
That is the only thing that "think tanks" have in order to prepare leaders for strategic countermoves.
What we do here is guess what someone might do based on our own perspectives and political outlook.
IOW, that was a strawman Ranetka. And your little friend tagged along since she had nothing else to add.
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Status quo as was before, but without Crimea.
UA is dependent on transit revenue and low energy prices. Although the west is capable of helping, 'restructuring' UA is not possible, thus any help will be conditional and limited.
RU will then become again the favored 'partner' in trade for political influence... after all RU has energy and 'knows' the 'UA system' best.
I get the feeling that the west is looking at UA as a 'rats nest' of problems and that throwing money in that mouse hole won't help at all.. in fact it will only benefit RU.
I'm not so sure about that BC.
Crimea causes Russia investment crisis (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9e3e6dd2-b4df-11e3-9166-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2xYXeRULj)
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So take this one step further: Russia now begins to float ideas of a "Joint Ownership" of Crimea. While that may be novel, it is not based in reality. Ukraine still sees Crimea as part of Ukraine. Stolen from Ukraine. And Russia's actions have pushed Ukraine directly into the arms of the European Union. (Frankly, I think Ukraine aligning with any faction is incorrect. For those who watched the movie, Divergent, Ukraine should be 'Factionless'.)
Oh, I wholeheartedly disagree on two separate dissenting votes.
The MAIN reason Ukraine is the pickle it finds itself right now is BECAUSE it was "Factionless" all these years. More of wishy-washy while it was raped by her "leaders."
Now, hundreds were killed and who knows many more might perish and for what, stay the course?
No thanks.
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Can't agree more.
Why?
Can you explain why?
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So far I'm reading the Chocolate king is the leading candidate for presidency. Anybody heard different, especially those coming out of eastern Ukraine? Photo of him and his family in link below.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26822741
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Well I think the pivotal here are two points:
1. Do you accept the right of Autonomous republic to self determination without agreement of central government (Kosovo, anyone?)
I'll see your Kosovo and raise you Chechnya and the rest of the Caucasus.
Think how nice it would be for Moscow having the Great Islamic Republic of Jihadist against Moscow just around the corner. Who knows, maybe the Tatar republic and assorted Islamic enclaves within Russia?
I think I know the answer.
2. And another is if the referendum was indeed the expression of will of the people (I think there is a general agreement that majority of Crimeans indeed wanted to be part of Russia, at least that's what BBC's reporting)
Then why did more than 50% voted for Ukrainian independence and be part of Ukraine back in the 1990s?
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Nothing could influence people's opinion in Crimea, because it was firmly formed long ago before the events.
You say that as if you are so full of pride thinking that way.
Wow.
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Their next president will become Poroshenko. :( [size=78%]No comments.[/size]
Don't despair. There's a possibility Yankonvict may stage a comeback. >:(
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Both the UK and the US should be ashamed! The Budapest memorandum was signed by both parties and guaranteed Ukraine (including Crimea), protection of their sovereignty and borders when they gave up nuclear weapons. The agreement had no expiration date. Both should have immediately offered Ukraine military assistance (even if it were only weapons to defend themselves).
(blah, blah, blah)
My apologies for walking around with a safety pin. Now, where's that balloon?
That is NOT what the Budapest Memorandum states. It simply says that the USA, Great Britain, and Russia, (and France and China thereafter) PROMISED Ukraine not to take advantage of their lack of nuclear armamnet to infringe on their borders nor sovereignty. PERIOD
Nothing about bopping anyone over their heads if the broke their promises. Like a Treaty of Versailles, pick any of them.
Basically, what Putin did was to show the world that treaties are just like toilet paper.
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Excellent points. It would appear Russia can get critical supplies to the peninsula. If the two nations can kiss and makeup then Ukraine can possibly profit by supplying utilities to the region...that way both countries can win.
Fathertime!
LMFAO
That would be like asking you and LT to suck face and grope each other.
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Here is the link to some interesting facts about Ukrainian production of Russian military weapons and parts.
Hopefully the Kiev government will immediately quit supplying Russia these parts, move the engineering to a safe place, and negotiate with the West to manufacture goods to make up the losses of income.
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-ukraine-military-equipment/25312911.html (http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-ukraine-military-equipment/25312911.html)
Hopefully sounds kind of urgent, doesn't it?
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Chocolate king Petro Poroshenko backed by world heavyweight boxer Vitali Klitschko and Yulia Tymoshenko. Yulia would be a mistake since she couldn't get the job done before. Both candidates are pro West and if they listen to advice, they may be able to have some Western style economic success in Ukraine.
Goldilocks is pro-herself and only herself. Not only it would be a mistake electing her, it would be the demise of Ukraine as a country. PERIOD.
I have not heard any names of pro Russian candidates. Although dialogue has increased between Obama and Putin, Putin's troops still are on the move and Russian troops in Georgia has been on the move too. With increased dialogue, Putin has increased covert operations in eastern Ukraine and may try a "Crimea" before the May 25 election. This tells me Putin may have a difficult time finding a pro Russian candidate that can win it all so he'll have to achieve his goals with baby steps.
Ever heard of Sergei Tigipko? Actually, any Party of Regions candidate will do.
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There was more than clear indication of this, as Ukraine wanted to enter NATO and have its base on the Ukrainian territtory.
Okay, show me a link where this was going to happen. I don't care if the link comes directly from the Kremlin. Just show me there were plans for a base in Ukraine. Then I will tell you that was going to be impossible for the next 28 years.
But you first show me the link.
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If it will really make you feel better, then yes, Canada is an aggressor nation; a marginal one at best.
I already knew the answer Canadaman. I just wanted to make sure you knew. A marginal aggressor nation? That's akin to being "a little bit pregnant"
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Okay, show me a link where this was going to happen. I don't care if the link comes directly from the Kremlin. Just show me there were plans for a base in Ukraine. Then I will tell you that was going to be impossible for the next 28 years.
But you first show me the link.
If I were Russia, I would be disturbed!
By taking over Crimea, Russia removes the one obstacle which the nation of Ukraine could not overcome if it wished to join NATO. There was speculation (at the time) that this was the primary reason for Russia instituting the Crimean base lease through 2042. If you are a member of NATO you may not have forces of a non-member country stationed in your country - your country cannot be used as a military base for forces from a non-member country. The Russian military base and naval base in Crimea would have prevented Ukraine from joining NATO.
Now the clear favorite in the presidential race is someone who has previously advocated NATO membership.
If Russia does not invade, then clearly, they will have to contend with a government that may sign a NATO treaty and put NATO troops on the border of Russia, directly opposing those that Putin now maintains on the Russian border with Ukraine.
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Time passes quickly, although agreements for naval bases run for a while, no one knows how political tides can turn. IMHO Putin saw weakness and made sure RU's strategic assets would not get away. Even if UA moved more west, politically speaking Crimea would be a thorn in their side. Crimea is surrounded by oil and gas fields and served by pipelines so I doubt energy will be a problem. Agriculture and tourism drive the rest of the economy along with a good number of industries large and small. Add a fair number of merchant ports. Yes, there is a cost but I doubt it will become unbearable for RU. In fact the price is likely far less than that in 5 10 or more years.
For entry into EU and NATO one has to bring assets to the table and not liabilities. UA has lost this asset.
Looking at this thread there is a whole lot of speculation and assumptions, mostly along political lines. Maybe it would be best to step back, objectively look at the facts and the long term picture instead.
What are the assets Crimea will bring to RU aside from good wine and Krimsekt?
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If I were Russia, I would be disturbed!
Mentally disturbed?
(Reuters) - Russia threatened several Eastern European and Central Asian states with retaliation if they voted in favor of a United Nations General Assembly resolution this week declaring invalid Crimea's referendum on seceding from Ukraine, U.N. diplomats said.
The disclosures about Russian threats came after Moscow accused Western countries of using "shameless pressure, up to the point of political blackmail and economic threats," in an attempt to coerce the United Nations' 193 member states to join it in supporting the non-binding resolution on the Ukraine crisis.
According to interviews with U.N. diplomats, most of whom preferred to speak on condition of anonymity for fear of angering Moscow, the targets of Russian threats included Moldova, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan as well as a number of African countries.
A spokesman for Russia's Mission to the U.N. denied that Moscow threatened any country with retaliation if it supported the resolution, saying: "We never threaten anyone. We just explain the situation."
Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/29/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSBREA2R20O20140329)
We just explain the situation?? Are you shitting me?
:ROFL:
Which parallel universe is this?
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What are the assets Crimea will bring to RU aside from good wine and Krimsekt?
Exellent question.
What assets does Criema bring to the RF that it did not provide previously?
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Exellent question.
What assets does Criema bring to the RF that it did not provide previously?
As it stands today, a permanent strategic military presence, vs an agreement that could be broken or not renewed in the future.
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As it stands today, a permanent strategic military presence, vs an agreement that could be broken or not renewed in the future.
You really think it was worth incurring the scorn of every other European country?
Now I'm asking you, objectively, what was the real gain of buying the cow when they were getting the milk for free? Now they have to infuse billion$$$ into this place. Crimea was dragging Ukraine's economy. Now they can get a bigger bang for the buck from that IMF loan. Not really a great chess move if you want to bring your opponent down.
Not to mention that any kind of covert influence in the Rada is gone since there are no more reps from Crimea.
Furthermore, awakening a moribund NATO. That one has me scratching my bald head.
Eastern Ukraine. Yep. Of course you still have some provocateurs out there and people who want to join Russia. HOWEVER, I would bet lots of cash that the number of these Ukrainians that felt closer ties to Russia has decrease considerably. Just hedging my bets based on ground reports.
BC, look at what I was saying before Putin took Crimea. I kept saying it would never happen. It defied logic. Still does.
When the US went after Iraq, everyone knew we wanted the oil. WMD my ass. OIL baby. When the US went after Grenada, Reagan was NOT having a good year in the White House and the same for George Herbert Walker with Panama. A little distraction from the real proble: the economy.
Here Putin threw away the distraction and brought in the economy. This is his Waterloo.
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Time passes quickly, although agreements for naval bases run for a while, no one knows how political tides can turn. IMHO Putin saw weakness and made sure RU's strategic assets would not get away. Even if UA moved more west, politically speaking Crimea would be a thorn in their side. Crimea is surrounded by oil and gas fields and served by pipelines so I doubt energy will be a problem. Agriculture and tourism drive the rest of the economy along with a good number of industries large and small. Add a fair number of merchant ports. Yes, there is a cost but I doubt it will become unbearable for RU. In fact the price is likely far less than that in 5 10 or more years.
For entry into EU and NATO one has to bring assets to the table and not liabilities. UA has lost this asset.
Looking at this thread there is a whole lot of speculation and assumptions, mostly along political lines. Maybe it would be best to step back, objectively look at the facts and the long term picture instead.
What are the assets Crimea will bring to RU aside from good wine and Krimsekt?
You do realize that Russia is nearing completion on another warm water naval base in the Black Sea?
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You do realize that Russia is nearing completion on another warm water naval base in the Black Sea?
Where is it, jone? When I've looked at the map, I can see several areas from Sochi all the way up to Taganrog that appear to be possible sites for one or more new bases. I'm actually surprised that Russia hadn't already completed at least one, given that the original lease on Sevastopol was due to run out quite soon (and there could be no gurantee that it would have been renewed the way that Yanukovich did).
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When I've looked at the map, I can see several areas from Sochi all the way up to Taganrog that appear to be possible sites for one or more new bases.
Just looking at the map is not enough, most places are not good for making bases there, keep in mind most of them are tourist areas, port of Novorossiysk is too busy already with other stuff, in some places it's just impossible to have big ships.
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Interesting article I read today.
Russia suffered a massive reversal after former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich fell. It acted not so much to reverse the defeat as to shape perceptions of its power. Moscow's power is real but insufficient to directly reverse events by occupying Kiev. It will need to use Ukraine's economic weakness, political fragmentation and time to try to reassert its position. In order to do this, it needs a negotiated solution that it hopes will be superseded by events. To have that solution, Moscow needs a significant negotiating partner. The United States is the only one available. And for all its complexity and oddities, if it can be persuaded to act, it alone can provide the stable platform that Russia now needs.
The United States is not ready to concede that it has entered a period during which competition with Russia will be a defining element in its foreign policy. Its internal logic is not focused on Russia, nor are internal bureaucratic interests aligned. There is an argument to be made that it is not in the U.S. interest to end the Ukrainian crisis, that allowing Russia to go deeper into the Ukrainian morass will sap its strength and abort the emerging competition before it really starts. But the United States operates by its own process, and it is not yet ready to think in terms of weakening Russia, and given the United States' relative isolation, postponement is not a bad idea.
Therefore, the negotiations show promise. But more important, the Russians have shown us the way the world still works. When something must get done, the number to call is still in the United States.
Russia and the United States Negotiate the Future of Ukraine | Stratfor (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russia-and-united-states-negotiate-future-ukraine?utm_source=freelist-f&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20140401&utm_term=Gweekly&utm_content=readmore)
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What assets does Criema bring to the RF that it did not provide previously?
Haven't they discovered deep water gas deposits in the Black Sea off Krim?
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When I've looked at the map, I can see several areas from Sochi all the way up to Taganrog that appear to be possible sites for one or more new bases. I'm actually surprised that Russia hadn't already completed at least one, given that the original lease on Sevastopol was due to run out quite soon (and there could be no gurantee that it would have been renewed the way that Yanukovich did).
There is a naval base in Novorossiysk, northeastern shore of the Black Sea:
(http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/57/03/75_big.jpg)
However, Novorossiysk is not an ideal location because it does not have the natural deep sea harbour Sevastopol has, and the commercial port operations limit the available space.
Looking at the map one can see a strategic position of Crimea overlooking Black Sea.
Moscow plan to transfer Tupolev Tu-22M3 'Backfire' long-range supersonic bombers to Crimea by 2016 as part of a build-up of maritime aviation assets:
(http://www.janes.com/images/assets/140/36140/1525994_-_main.jpg)
From the Crimea, the Tu-22M3s in strike or reconnaissance roles will be able to support Russian naval tasks forces patrolling the Mediterranean Sea, including off the coast of Syria, and keep in check possible NATO expansion in Ukraine.
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Haven't they discovered deep water gas deposits in the Black Sea off Krim?
That's right, the gas deposits off Crimea shores are not too ample but enough to provide local consumption and may be little export in future.
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Haven't they discovered deep water gas deposits in the Black Sea off Krim?
Do you really think that you can bring a portable auger from Home Depot to the shore and get an oil well?
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Do you really think that you can bring a portable auger from Home Depot to the shore and get an oil well?
Well, we are talking about undersea natural gas with technology I do not believe the Russians are utilizing yet. I was under the impression that Western companies were moving into the Black Sea region to exploit this resource which would help wean Ukraine from Russia's teat.
Nobody has brought up the fact that the second largest solar farm in Europe (and 6th in the world) lies in Crimea. The fourth largest farm in the world also happens to be in Crimea.
Would hate for those damn Ukrainians to become energy independent like Brazil.
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Well, we are talking about undersea natural gas with technology I do not believe the Russians are utilizing yet. I was under the impression that Western companies were moving into the Black Sea region to exploit this resource which would help wean Ukraine from Russia's teat.
Nobody has brought up the fact that the second largest solar farm in Europe (and 6th in the world) lies in Crimea. The fourth largest farm in the world also happens to be in Crimea.
Would hate for those damn Ukrainians to become energy independent like Brazil.
The reason those deposits were not exploited was because Goldilocks wanted a cut in the action and went after Firtash and Yanukonvict and receded the contract they had signed with two Girl Scouts from a Carribean island. When this happened the Girl Scouts sued Ukraine through a big oil conglomerate coming out of Houston to reinstate the contract. Well Goldilocks said to them to give her a cut or they could take a hike. Well, knowing how conglomerates work, they turned it down because they could not justify a 60% profit to their shareholders. Goldilocks cut was close to 20% and so was Firtash. Ukraine was going to ge close to 1% of the profits.
Now that Crimea is part of Russia, forget about it. The oil conglomerates are still smarrting from that TNK-BP debacle a few years ago so Russia can forget about western cooperation (deep-sea oil) for a long time.
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Just looking at the map is not enough, most places are not good for making bases there, keep in mind most of them are tourist areas, port of Novorossiysk is too busy already with other stuff, in some places it's just impossible to have big ships.
I realise that - how would Gelendzhik suit? It appears to have a nicely-sheltered harbour, but is it too popular with tourists? Or, a lot further north, what about Grimorsko-Ahtarsk (sp)? If the Sea of Azov doesn't freeze over, and the big inlets from the sea can be dredged easily enough, it would seem to have huge potential, especially with an airport only a few kilometres away.
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The reason those deposits were not exploited was because Goldilocks wanted a cut in the action and went after Firtash and Yanukonvict and receded the contract they had signed with two Girl Scouts from a Carribean island. When this happened the Girl Scouts sued Ukraine through a big oil conglomerate coming out of Houston to reinstate the contract. Well Goldilocks said to them to give her a cut or they could take a hike. Well, knowing how conglomerates work, they turned it down because they could not justify a 60% profit to their shareholders. Goldilocks cut was close to 20% and so was Firtash. Ukraine was going to ge close to 1% of the profits.
Now that Crimea is part of Russia, forget about it. The oil conglomerates are still smarrting from that TNK-BP debacle a few years ago so Russia can forget about western cooperation (deep-sea oil) for a long time.
That is why I stated that one of the first contracts signed, if the new government is able to stabilize power, will be a fracking contract for SE Ukraine.
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There is a naval base in Novorossiysk, northeastern shore of the Black Sea:
However, Novorossiysk is not an ideal location because it does not have the natural deep sea harbour Sevastopol has, and the commercial port operations limit the available space.
Yes, I know - I've been there (not to the naval base, obviously!).
Looking at the map one can see a strategic position of Crimea overlooking Black Sea.
That, of course, is far superior to having the nearest base an extra 400 or more kilometres (10-12 hours by sea?) away on the Krasnodarski coast.
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I realise that - how would Gelendzhik suit? It appears to have a nicely-sheltered harbour, but is it too popular with tourists? Or, a lot further north, what about Grimorsko-Ahtarsk (sp)? If the Sea of Azov doesn't freeze over, and the big inlets from the sea can be dredged easily enough, it would seem to have huge potential, especially with an airport only a few kilometres away.
Gelendzhik is toutist area, no way there ever will be any base, it's bay is kind of dirty even without any ships. Azov Sea is shallow, forget about it.
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Gelendzhik is toutist area, no way there ever will be any base, it's bay is kind of dirty even without any ships. Azov Sea is shallow, forget about it.
Thank you - the possibilities are starting to dwindle!
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Thank you
You are welcome. :D
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The Straits of Kerch, one side Crimea other Russia allows access to whole Sea of Azov area and River Don, so it is a strategic point since it would not take much from either side to block it off.
Over 24 years RU will probably save somewhere around 12 to 15 Billion in rental fees that were paid to UA. Now gas prices for UA have been hiked to normal, non subsidized levels several Billion a year more revenue for RU. Add not subsidizing UA proper (remember they already lost 15 Billion in loans from RU) and who knows how much in the future, It's hard to say that RU just went through the motions and just acquires a net loss in the end....
In fact, WMF seems to be setting up 18 BN in loans to UA much of which will end up in RU vaults anyway..
I think what both West and RU are debating is what happens if what remains of UA simply falls anyway.. even without interference from RU. This will likely be the basis of future negotiations between EU, US and RU.
Despite all the media and western political spin, I'm convinced Putin is playing chess while the rest of the world thinks checkers.
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Looking at the map one can see a strategic position of Crimea overlooking Black Sea.
Moscow plan to transfer Tupolev Tu-22M3 'Backfire' long-range supersonic bombers to Crimea by 2016 as part of a build-up of maritime aviation assets:
(http://www.janes.com/images/assets/140/36140/1525994_-_main.jpg)
From the Crimea, the Tu-22M3s in strike or reconnaissance roles will be able to support Russian naval tasks forces patrolling the Mediterranean Sea, including off the coast of Syria, and keep in check possible NATO expansion in Ukraine.
Ancient aircraft; the design is almost 50 years old. Strategic, long-range nuclear bombers seem like overkill for Crimean base, when, for defense, agile, fighter-attack aircraft are what is needed. Tantamount to US basing strategic bombers in Poland and Baltic nations.
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In fact, WMF seems to be setting up 18 BN in loans to UA much of which will end up in RU vaults anyway..
WMF? Or IMF?
The IMF aid requires Ukraine to raise the price consumers pay for energy. So yes, UA will need energy which will come in the near future from RU and RU will be paid. With this aid, the development of alternative energy sources will begin. It is already well underway in Europe. So what are the implications for the long term, provided UA can turn the corner in the short term (a big "IF").
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WMF? Or IMF?
The IMF aid requires Ukraine to raise the price consumers pay for energy. So yes, UA will need energy which will come in the near future from RU and RU will be paid. With this aid, the development of alternative energy sources will begin. It is already well underway in Europe. So what are the implications for the long term, provided UA can turn the corner in the short term (a big "IF").
oops, yes IMF
Forget alternative energy.. in EU there was a boom, but that was only due to subsidies. Prices for PV panels dropped, production facilities were stopped to get prices back up a bit. Electricity is needed less than gas when it comes to heating. Alternative energy is left to the big guys, the power companies and large investors.. who wants to risk at this point? But in the end it's either subsidies (tax burden) or the consumer that has to pay. Along with gas prices, electricity prices must rise as well otherwise everyone will switch to heating with electricity instead and that would just totally overload their infrastructure.
Short term I believe both EU/West and RU will make arrangements to share the burden of helping UA get off it's knees. Both parties have interests involved. If UA can start playing a totally different ballgame (which I doubt) it will remain independent. If not, there will be an east/west split pre-arranged by both parties and we'll have WUA and EUA This accounts for interest in making oblasts more independent. We may find RU supporting eastern leaning oblasts and the west the rest.
There's a whole lot of negotiation to be done and it's just starting now. First thing to watch for is when (not if) all sanctions against RU are lifted. If that happens quickly (which I believe will) you will know who has the upper hand with the wheeling and dealing.
Neither RU or EU wants to absorb what remains of UA. It's simply too costly and in itself would only foment strife. Putin already picked the cherry.
Lets just hope things move along quickly and jointly.. otherwise a whole bunch of folk in UA will be freezing their butts off come next winter.
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My tip to those living in UA, get a good wood stove and start stocking wood as high as you can.. prices for both will rise quickly if not already.
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My tip to everyone, tell your governments LOUDLY to quit preventing alternative energy sources like solar from becoming affordable. The oligarchy wants to keep everyone hooked on oil. ENOUGH ALREADY !!!.. Ok, you can have the soapbox back now :P
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Crimea may go back to Ukraine? Ex president Yanukovych was teary eyed during an interview stating it was his mistake in asking Russia to go into Crimea. Yanukovych states Crimea belongs to Ukraine and will ask Putin to give it back.
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-interview-yanukovych-wrong-crimea-161124219--finance.html
Here's my opinion on that article. Yanukovych is Putin's puppet and anything coming out of his mouth is what Putin has told him to say. Putin can't find a pro Russian contender for the presidency that can win it all so he brings back Yanukovych into play as Ukraine's legitimate president. By Yanukovych saying Crimea belongs to Ukraine and he disagrees with what Putin has done by annexing Ukraine, he becomes a more likable person among Ukrainians. He shows he can cry and admit his mistakes and some people will forgive. He won't win everybody's support but he will have less resistance from the Ukrainian citizens if Putin decides to put him back into power by force. Putin has a few options on the table and this is one of them.
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Forget alternative energy..
I am thinking alternative energy in respect to home developed fossil
fuels as opposed to imports. If Ukraine develops some local energy
then they would have one less major drain on their economy.
I have no idea what the extent of Ukraine's fossil fuels are. I briefly
looked for it on Google, but didn't find anything.
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(http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2014/514/orhj914.jpg)
In regard to media covering political conflicts. The demotivator talks about Russian media but I think the message can be applied to US and Ukrainian national media as well.
(http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/1979495_706284676088810_2127588878_n.jpg)
If there is a call we'll do it (media of Russia)
(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VBhwhWuYEds/UzqFr7Nfv1I/AAAAAAAAA-M/ZX9Q1dqCCyQ/w604-h449-no/large111.jpg)
YOU WANNA ALASKA?! OK, TAKE IT! But I warn you we'll impose sanctions on 5 more Russian officials!
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I am thinking alternative energy in respect to home developed fossil
fuels as opposed to imports.
That was what I meant as well. I used the term "alternative energy," which suggests Obama's renewable energy program, a huge waste of money so far. Instead I should have used the term "alternative sources of conventional energy."
I have no idea what the extent of Ukraine's fossil fuels are. I briefly
looked for it on Google, but didn't find anything.
For a man working in the shale oil fields of North Dakota, you will be pleasantly surprised that Ukraine has two shale formations (one in the west and one in the east near the Russian border). Neither is as large as the huge formations in the US, yet there is enough to prompt Chevron to enter into an agreement to develop the western field. Upon reading Gazprom's position, recognizing that a majority of Russia's gas exports to Europe are piped through Ukraine, and considering some other factors: one could assert that the Ukrainian-Russian conflict is more about energy and not Russia vs. Europe alignment.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/06/business/international/chevron-and-ukraine-sign-deal-on-shale-gas.html?_r=0
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_Ukraine
UA is sitting on top of enough energy to feed themselves and more.
I think the main problem is that until now it was much much easier to just reap profits from selling cheap RU gas from allotments destined to domestic UA use to the west instead aside from a good percentage from the domestic market.
No work, no investments needed and at the low RU gas prices maybe not even economically feasible.
In essence, it seems UA cronies were being paid to ignore their own resources.
It will take a lot of time and money to develop their own resources, something BIG industry would like to do but given the economic and political atmosphere it would be like digging in a sand trap.
Again it's an economic balance, even if they could open up the taps to this large resource, prices would immediately fall.
The only short term solution is to decrease domestic demand by implementing energy saving measures. It seems UA is one of the most inefficient users of energy around.... The typical consumer will be hit very hard, with many having to start paying for the gas they use.
What has happened thus far is likely nothing like what will happen when next winter hits.
The topic of energy in UA is a good one.. one that hits the very core of their problems including high level corruption.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_Ukraine)
UA is sitting on top of enough energy to feed themselves and more.
I think the main problem is that until now it was much much easier to just reap profits from selling cheap RU gas from allotments destined to domestic UA use to the west instead aside from a good percentage from the domestic market.
No work, no investments needed and at the low RU gas prices maybe not even economically feasible.
In essence, it seems UA cronies were being paid to ignore their own resources.
It will take a lot of time and money to develop their own resources, something BIG industry would like to do but given the economic and political atmosphere it would be like digging in a sand trap.
Again it's an economic balance, even if they could open up the taps to this large resource, prices would immediately fall.
The only short term solution is to decrease domestic demand by implementing energy saving measures. It seems UA is one of the most inefficient users of energy around.... The typical consumer will be hit very hard, with many having to start paying for the gas they use.
What has happened thus far is likely nothing like what will happen when next winter hits.
The topic of energy in UA is a good one.. one that hits the very core of their problems including high level corruption.
Excellent post and right on the money.
I disagree with your earlier comment on forgetting alternative energy though. Unless you meant for the average Ukrainian citizen at this moment?
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Excellent post and right on the money.
I disagree with your earlier comment on forgetting alternative energy though. Unless you meant for the average Ukrainian citizen at this moment?
No, not forget, but forget it for now. First it's a huge investment, second you need good infrastructure and agreements to sell your energy back to the utilities.
It would be great if the average citizen would be willing to install PV and solar water panels on their roofs.. Problem is that a majority live in high rises.. and those living in single homes or dachas would have to sit on their doorstep all night to keep someone else from just stealing them.
My programmers live outside of Donetsk in a good sized town.. folks steal the internet cables to sell for it's copper.. has happened a couple times over the last years.
So if you're an internet provider, you'll need mob connections and buy protection for your cables.. Just the way it is.
Not to say it does not happen elsewhere.. down in my area of Italy they put up thousands of solar powered light poles.. within six months most were stripped of the solar panels and batteries.
When evaluating options you have to try and get into the locale 'mindset' and not simply accept options that would work in your own country. They may well not be viable elsewhere.
In any case alternative (renewable) energy in UA is likely not needed now. They likely have enough electrical energy with all the nukes they have. What they really need is gas to heat and cook with. Panels and windmills will not help much there.
The HUGE challenge will be getting folks to pay real world prices for their utilities in the first place. Until that is fixed no commercial enterprise will be interested in energy development unless solid payment guarantees are in place.. and right now who in UA is able to guarantee anything?... Heck, even before this crisis UA was consistently behind paying even their greatly discounted bill for RU gas.. The big question is how in the heck are they going to do it now.....
Yep.. with your tax dollars or euros.
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(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VBhwhWuYEds/UzqFr7Nfv1I/AAAAAAAAA-M/ZX9Q1dqCCyQ/w604-h449-no/large111.jpg)
YOU WANNA ALASKA?! OK, TAKE IT! But I warn you we'll impose sanctions on 5 more Russian officials!
I like that one. There is a petition going on at the White House right now to give Alaska back to Russia.
http://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/alaska-back-russia/SFG1ppfN
As some of you may have heard recently. Putin's divorce papers are final. There is a lesson to be learned here. Men should do better when it comes to pleasing their wives. When the wife asks you to bring home the cream, don't make the mistake and bring home the Crimea.
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Peggy Noonan writes for the Wall Street Journal. Her article, which appears below, is an op/ed piece which gets the proper mood for what we're seeing now from a point of view of the Americans. Those head scratchers out there still haven't figured out the big picture.
'What would Reagan do?' is a series of thoughts that are the composite piece of new interaction between Russia and the Western World. A good read.
http://blogs.wsj.com/peggynoonan/2014/04/02/russia-the-big-picture/
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The topic of energy in UA is a good one.. one that hits the very core of their problems including high level corruption.
High level corruption or high level of corruption?
My little exposure to Ukraine suggests that corruption is everywhere, and to be that pervasive means that the highest level political leaders are the most corrupt.
I dated a UW who had a luxury apartment, including a kitchen that would the dream of any wife of a successful American businessman. She received it when divorcing her ex-husband, a district attorney. Makes you wonder how many top level criminals had a deal with him. In Egypt at a resort full of Russians, I met the chief of police for a large Ukrainian city. He spoke English and asked me about the Florida real estate market. I initially thought he wanted to buy a house. He was talking about buying a beachfront high rise condo building (not unit) under construction.
So if these third level politicians are doing that well, what is happening at the top level? Here's a clue:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571408/New-pictures-eye-opening-opulence-ousted-Ukrainian-president-Yanukovichs-palace-sprawling-estate-tourist-attraction.html
And who of them will allow such power to be taken away by government reforms?
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High level corruption or high level of corruption?
My little exposure to Ukraine suggests that corruption is everywhere, and to be that pervasive means that the highest level political leaders are the most corrupt.
I dated a UW who had a luxury apartment, including a kitchen that would the dream of any wife of a successful American businessman. She received it when divorcing her ex-husband, a district attorney. Makes you wonder how many top level criminals had a deal with him. In Egypt at a resort full of Russians, I met the chief of police for a large Ukrainian city. He spoke English and asked me about the Florida real estate market. I initially thought he wanted to buy a house. He was talking about buying a beachfront high rise condo building (not unit) under construction.
So if these third level politicians are doing that well, what is happening at the top level? Here's a clue:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571408/New-pictures-eye-opening-opulence-ousted-Ukrainian-president-Yanukovichs-palace-sprawling-estate-tourist-attraction.html
And who of them will allow such power to be taken away by government reforms?
Unfortunately, Gator, I tend to agree with your analysis.
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I dated a UW who had a luxury apartment, including a kitchen that would the dream of any wife of a successful American businessman.
Did you know that most renowned chefs are male? But it is the little woman who needs the kitchen, right?
Anyway, back to what BC was saying there was some perspective offered by Thomas Friedman the other day about the geoplitics of money.
Putin runs a petro state. If it were not for the growth in the global market that globalization created and the energy revenues that it produces for Russia, Putin and the oligarchs who form his power base would be living off exports of vodka and caviar. Putin can’t survive without the revenues globalization provides him to buy off his people and former Soviet republics.
And that tells us how to “end Putinism,” says Mandelbaum, “which would be good not only for the world, but also, and especially, for Russia. The tools are primarily economic: denying Russian oligarchs access to the Western financial system and reducing the energy revenues flowing into Putin’s coffers.”
Follow the Money (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/opinion/friedman-follow-the-money.html?_r=0)
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American and NATO troops headed to Ukraine for exercises in a few months. If Putin wants to do something, he better do it quick. Ukraine joining the West has accelerated.
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pm-medvedev-visits-crimea-reports-075219445.html
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American and NATO troops headed to Ukraine for exercises in a few months. If Putin wants to do something, he better do it quick. Ukraine joining the West has accelerated.
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pm-medvedev-visits-crimea-reports-075219445.html (http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pm-medvedev-visits-crimea-reports-075219445.html)
As I've been harping on, if Russia was interested in governing all of Ukraine, they would have already moved weeks ago. They have done what they set out to do which was to permanently control the ports in Crimea.
In other news, I see the USA was covertly trying to foment and create unrest in Cuba. Our nation's foreign policy is incredibly hypocritical. I'm not clear on why we NEED to be doing this sort of thing in Cuba or Ukraine. Let Cuba do what is doing. It is not up to us to try to force regime change. We have plenty of pressing things to attend to in our own country.
Fathertime!
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As I've been harping on, if Russia was interested in governing all of Ukraine, they would have already moved weeks ago. They have done what they set out to do which was to permanently control the ports in Crimea.
In other news, I see the USA was covertly trying to foment and create unrest in Cuba. Our nation's foreign policy is incredibly hypocritical. I'm not clear on why we NEED to be doing this sort of thing in Cuba or Ukraine. Let Cuba do what is doing. It is not up to us to try to force regime change. We have plenty of pressing things to attend to in our own country.
Add Venezuela.
Assassination attempts aren't new with our beloved country. In 1985, they failed at trying to assassinate Ayatollah Fadlallah, then spiritual leader of the Hezbollah, known to be responsible for the bombing of the marine barracks in Beirut. They tried to do it with a car bomb, in the same fashion we demonize extremists when they do it. It killed over 80 innocent people and injured and maimed over 200.
What made that attempt even worst than it was, was the fact the guy they tried to kill was someone else and was an abominable case of mistaken identity.
In the aftermath of that attack, surviving locals held up a sign along the blown-out building structures with dead bodies still laying around that read: *Made in USA*.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Beirut_car_bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Beirut_car_bombing)
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As I've been harping on, if Russia was interested in governing all of Ukraine, they would have already moved weeks ago. They have done what they set out to do which was to permanently control the ports in Crimea.
Our NATO allies surrounding Ukraine don't agree. Many have and are still asking America to do training exercises with them and park our troops in their country. These countries have had their world turned upside down in the past by Russia. They're not going to gamble everything on a hunch that all Putin wants is Crimea. My hunch tells me Putin will get everything he can as long as he can get away with it. That is logical, after all, he has tens of thousands of troops on the border of Ukraine and covert agents working inside Ukraine right now.
In other news, I see the USA was covertly trying to foment and create unrest in Cuba. Our nation's foreign policy is incredibly hypocritical.
I don't see our foreign policy as good or evil. Cuba has done whatever they could get away with to undermine our country. If they could park nukes in their country, they'd do that too. Ever since Castro took power, he stole land that American citizens have bought and didn't reimburse them. I can accept America taking action to make Castro's life more uncomfortable. Castro should've been happy we never took him out by force.
Add Venezuela.
Assassination attempts aren't new with our beloved country. In 1985, they failed at trying to assassinate Ayatollah Fadlallah, then spiritual leader of the Hezbollah, known to be responsible for the bombing of the marine barracks in Beirut. They tried to do it with a car bomb, in the same fashion we demonize extremists when they do it. It killed over 80 innocent people and injured and maimed over 200.
The thing people overlook is America reacts to bad behavior, not initiate it. Expecting perfection out of humans and America is silly. Accidents happen. America will have a few critics no matter what. Can't please everyone. If countries don't like America's foreign policy, they can do business with someone else. So far I see many countries asking America for help and to base our troops on their land for security reasons. Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries have our troops there to protect their oil. Who better to trust? Who has a better reputation than America? America can't accommodate everyone though and we have had to turn down some nation's requests. Because America takes action against the thugs of the world, many nations respect us. Our foreign policy is working better than anybody else's and is fine but if we become too passive, that will be the beginning of the end for us. Based on what I see in today's world, I doubt there's anybody out there with the guts to come to our rescue. Enjoy the fact you're currently living in the most powerful nation in the world that's well respected and a good life. Our future generations may not be so lucky.
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(http://www.tomatobubble.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Putin-young-784894.jpg)
Young Vladimir
(http://www.tomatobubble.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/1-Obama.jpg.w300h198.jpg)
Young Barack
(http://www.tomatobubble.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/201out.jpg.w300h199.jpg)
Racer Vlad
(http://www.tomatobubble.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/obama_go_cart.gif)
Racer Barack
(http://www.tomatobubble.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Hello-Sailor.jpg)
Colonel Putin
(http://www.tomatobubble.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/onbamimages.jpg)
Oh well
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I don't see our foreign policy as good or evil. Cuba has done whatever they could get away with to undermine our country. If they could park nukes in their country, they'd do that too. Ever since Castro took power, he stole land that American citizens have bought and didn't reimburse them. I can accept America taking action to make Castro's life more uncomfortable. Castro should've been happy we never took him out by force.
ACTUALLY, we armed Bautista's forces against Castro...Eventually despite our meddling Castro won out anyway...then we started making demands to Castro with the threat of overthrowing him if he did not do as we said....he basically said Eff-U....So now we try to isolate Cuba.
We should not have gotten involved in the Cuban revolution.....while many are making parallels to Hitler, For me I make the parallel to places like Cuba as it pertains to the fomenting of revolution.. There is NO NEED for us to stick our snout in another country's business. I just read that we are now WARNING Russia not to raise their price of gas to Ukraine...Just who the hell are we to tell Russia what they can and can't charge for THEIR gas? So it is OK for our nation to use financial warfare, but when Russia plays one of their cards we wag our finger and warn them not to...what a joke... I still believe we should tone down our public involvement. Crimea is a part of Russia now, and our 'representatives' are hypocrites for crying foul...given what we have done.
Fathertime!
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ACTUALLY, we armed Bautista's forces against Castro
Castro should be happy we didn't keep arming people to go after him and take him out by force. Fathertime, if someone stole your property and planted bombs next to your house, I would not feel any sympathy for the guy if you blew his head off. After Ghaddafi took part in the murder of civilians in downing a passenger jet, Reagan bombed Libya. I didn't feel any sympathy for the Libyans then.
There is NO NEED for us to stick our snout in another country's business.
Earlier I posted a link showing China is currently trying to expand it's borders at some islands starving Filipinos using military force. If the Russians can do it with little penalties, China felt they can do it too. America is now sticking it's nose in China's business and telling them not to pull a Crimea. If not America, who will stop countries from expanding their borders? In history, real estate always changes hands. Do we take a passive stance and allow these things to happen or should we enforce international laws because nobody else seems capable?
http://news.yahoo.com/u-warns-china-not-attempt-crimea-style-action-235759479.html
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ACTUALLY, we armed Bautista's forces against Castro...Eventually despite our meddling Castro won out anyway...then we started making demands to Castro with the threat of overthrowing him if he did not do as we said....he basically said Eff-U....So now we try to isolate Cuba.
We should not have gotten involved in the Cuban revolution.....while many are making parallels to Hitler, For me I make the parallel to places like Cuba as it pertains to the fomenting of revolution.. There is NO NEED for us to stick our snout in another country's business. I just read that we are now WARNING Russia not to raise their price of gas to Ukraine...Just who the hell are we to tell Russia what they can and can't charge for THEIR gas? So it is OK for our nation to use financial warfare, but when Russia plays one of their cards we wag our finger and warn them not to...what a joke... I still believe we should tone down our public involvement. Crimea is a part of Russia now, and our 'representatives' are hypocrites for crying foul...given what we have done.
Fathertime!
Links please.`
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Links please.`
http://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-russia-against-gas-hikes-hurt-ukraine-181319430.html
Even if they want to charge UA higher rates than they do EU, that's fine.. UA can always buy gas from EU at market rates..
After all, they owe RU over 2 Billion.
It's quite similar to banks charging higher interest rates for customers with lower credit scores.. or a store offering a discount when items are bought with cash.
Question again remains economic... who wants to sell gas to UA without guarantees?
That's the bottom line.
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Links please.`
The United States supplied Batista with planes, ships, tanks, and the latest technology, such as napalm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm), which he used against the insurgency. However, in March 1958, the U.S. announced it would stop selling arms to the Cuban government.[64] Soon after, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo, further weakening the government's position,[65] although land owners and others who benefited from the government continued to support Batista.[26]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista
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We should not have gotten involved in the Cuban revolution.....
Aren't you a half century late? Is Cuba our worst example? What about the native Americans? Slavery? Annexation of Mexican territory? American history has some dark chapters, and Cuba is not the darkest. If you spent time in Florida and befriended some Cuban-Americans, you will learn about atrocities, property seizures, etc.
Besides, the Cold War was real. You need to factor the prevailing ideologies at the time. Perhaps you would have done the same if you were in charge in the 1950s and 1960s. As it turned out, all we had to was let communist fervor run its course. Sometimes it does not collapse. After visiting Laos and Vietnam 40 years after I was first there, I say the "good guys" won.
I just read that we are now WARNING Russia not to raise their price of gas to Ukraine...Just who the hell are we to tell Russia what they can and can't charge for THEIR gas?
Missed that. Your source reputable?
Crimea is a part of Russia now, and our 'representatives' are hypocrites for crying foul...given what we have done.
Maybe we have repented. Anyway, a foul is still a foul.
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Question again remains economic... who wants to sell gas to UA without guarantees?
I would not sell UA anything without some guarantee. But that has always been the case when dealing with Russian businesses.
In the case of gas prices, it could be like a monopoly dealing with a captive customer. A 485% increase in price is huge. Is the new price the same that European customers pay Russia?
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Links please.`
http://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-russia-against-gas-hikes-hurt-ukraine-181319430.html (http://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-russia-against-gas-hikes-hurt-ukraine-181319430.html)
Aren't you a half century late? Is Cuba our worst example? What about the native Americans? Slavery? Annexation of Mexican territory? American history has some dark chapters, and Cuba is not the darkest. If you spent time in Florida and befriended some Cuban-Americans, you will learn about atrocities, property seizures, etc.
I don't know if Cuba is our worst example...I just bring it up because of the recent news regarding us once again attempting to foment rebellion in that nation. We shouldn't be doing that, as it continues to give credence to our world opponents when they say we have interfered elsewhere. In addition, it is a misuse of our own resources. I don't want our govt. to focus on fomenting rebellions elsewhere.
Speaking of atrocities, the leader we supported committed so atrocious acts himself, so we are not standing on higher ground on that count either. We got involved not for the benefit of the people, it was all about finances, as usual. I think we are better off letting countries sort out their issues the best they can, and deal with who is left standing. Our 'help' is rarely seen as an act of kindness, although that is the phony way our govt 'representatives' always characterize it. That line of thinking just doesn't sell like it used to, imo.
Fathertime!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista)
Mr. Fi!!! Fancy meeting you here. ;D
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Aren't you a half century late? Is Cuba our worst example? What about the native Americans? Slavery? Annexation of Mexican territory? American history has some dark chapters, and Cuba is not the darkest. If you spent time in Florida and befriended some Cuban-Americans, you will learn about atrocities, property seizures, etc.
Do they tell you about workers cuting off their fingers and sometimes hands, so they could collect some temporary assistance from the Batista regime? Or how about their thriving sex slave industry?
I don't think they will. These people lived in the wrong side of the tracks.
However, they will tell you, as the song says, how they left their private plane and yatch in Havana? Not to metion how many acres each one of them owned in Havana. Yep, according to them Havana had a second floor in order to accomodate all that land.
I can tell you from personal experience that many who fled Batista were the most vile scum that ever walk this Earth.
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ACTUALLY, we armed Bautista's forces against Castro...Eventually despite our meddling Castro won out anyway...then we started making demands to Castro with the threat of overthrowing him if he did not do as we said....he basically said Eff-U....So now we try to isolate Cuba.
We should not have gotten involved in the Cuban revolution.....while many are making parallels to Hitler, For me I make the parallel to places like Cuba as it pertains to the fomenting of revolution.. There is NO NEED for us to stick our snout in another country's business. I just read that we are now WARNING Russia not to raise their price of gas to Ukraine...Just who the hell are we to tell Russia what they can and can't charge for THEIR gas? So it is OK for our nation to use financial warfare, but when Russia plays one of their cards we wag our finger and warn them not to...what a joke... I still believe we should tone down our public involvement. Crimea is a part of Russia now, and our 'representatives' are hypocrites for crying foul...given what we have done.
Fathertime!
C'mon FT, that's pure hyperbole and intellectually dishonest on your part (based on your link)
http://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-russia-against-gas-hikes-hurt-ukraine-181319430.html (http://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-russia-against-gas-hikes-hurt-ukraine-181319430.html)
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C'mon FT, that's pure hyperbole and intellectually dishonest on your part (based on your link)
O come on FP, so we didn't 'wag our finger'...but everything else written was true....We engage in financial warfare which is an effort to bring misery on certain peoples/governments...yet when Russia plays one of their cards (gas prices) we hypocritically jump up and down (hyperbole) and claim how unfair and oppressive it is. We should be about the last ones to speak out on these sorts of things, given what we have been doing.
Fathertime!
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However, they will tell you, as the song says, how they left their private plane and yatch in Havana? Not to metion how many acres each one of them owned in Havana. Yep, according to them Havana had a second floor in order to accomodate all that land.
Some of it is true. As they were indeed the landowners, and had been for longer than America has been a nation. Sadly, some of the oldtimers still believe that they will regain ownership someday.
I can tell you from personal experience that many who fled Batista were the most vile scum that ever walk this Earth.
Agree, Batista was a very bad man and had his avid supporters and enablers. Yet many who fled were not. I play golf with the son of a Jewish Cuban merchant. Somehow I can not imagine his father as anything other than a man minding his little business.
I still remember TV news broadcasting many quick executions that took place when Castro took over. The announcer said this is just as bad as what Castro replaced. At the time, American people tended to support Castro.
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...The thing people overlook is America reacts to bad behavior, not initiate it. Expecting perfection out of humans and America is silly....
Bad behavior? LOL. Not initiate it? Dude, being blind with our country's historical legacy does not bring merit to any of your silly argument. It simply render you clueless. I can cite you multiple historical facts that counter that silly statement above, but lack of knowledge or education is obviously not what ails you.
...Accidents happen...
Accidents?
The Beirut bombing was planned, premeditated and executed by the CIA.
Arming the KLA in Kosovo resulting in the Balkans war was strategically conducted and orchestrated by our very own resulting in 4 million displaced Albanians and the bombing of Serbia.
Dropping napalm bombs in an area known to be populated by innocent villagers simply because of *suspicion* a supply route ran right through it, is hardly what can be termed 'accident'. Fast forward: Waziristan, Pakistan.
My Lai.
... America will have a few critics no matter what. Can't please everyone. If countries don't like America's foreign policy, they can do business with someone else....
There you go. You're either with us or against us.
...So far I see many countries asking America for help and to base our troops on their land for security reasons. Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries have our troops there to protect their oil. Who better to trust? Who has a better reputation than America? America can't accommodate everyone though and we have had to turn down some nation's requests. Because America takes action against the thugs of the world, many nations respect us....
Yeah well, unfortunately our country heeds those who we find beneficial to our own interest. When there isn't anything in it for us, we simply kick our feet up and chill.
If you doubt that statement, Google Rwanda Hulu Tutsi massacre Machetes....it happened the same decade we supposedly cared so much about humanity that we just had to bomb Serbia for the cause. Unfortunately for those Rwandans, there simply was nothing in their country's resources for us to waste a dime and a nod.
Then read about the appointment of the Shah of Iran, and why, ultimately, we are at odds with Iran - no strike that; why Iran is at odds with US.
...Our foreign policy is working better than anybody else's and is fine but if we become too passive, that will be the beginning of the end for us. Based on what I see in today's world, I doubt there's anybody out there with the guts to come to our rescue. Enjoy the fact you're currently living in the most powerful nation in the world that's well respected and a good life. Our future generations may not be so lucky.
LOL. Enter: Edward Snowden.
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O come on FP, so we didn't 'wag our finger'...but everything else written was true....We engage in financial warfare which is an effort to bring misery on certain peoples/governments...yet when Russia plays one of their cards (gas prices) we hypocritically jump up and down (hyperbole) and claim how unfair and oppressive it is. We should be about the last ones to speak out on these sorts of things, given what we have been doing.
Fathertime!
You must have read that article differently than I did. Russia decides that Ukraine should now pay more than market price for gas. It is their choice. But the US commented that Ukraine should pay market rate. If you were sucking up to a country that just had a favorable switch in government, that is exactly what you would say in a similar situation. Especially if you wanted part of their future trade.
The difference is that the US has the technology and resources to throw their hat in the ring. Over the next couple of years, I would be surprised if we didn't see an LGN terminal along the Bug river - or fracking in South Eastern Ukraine.
That is, of course, assuming that Russia doesn't invade.
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O come on FP, so we didn't 'wag our finger'...but everything else written was true....We engage in financial warfare which is an effort to bring misery on certain peoples/governments...yet when Russia plays one of their cards (gas prices) we hypocritically jump up and down (hyperbole) and claim how unfair and oppressive it is. We should be about the last ones to speak out on these sorts of things, given what we have been doing.
Fathertime!
Financial warfare? denying a few oligarchs admittance to the U.S. is hardly financial warfare FT. Carney is just mouth piecing Kerry's empty rhetoric which equates to absolutely nothing but hot air. Also, no where even in your link do they "tell Russia what to charge for their gas". Hyperbole on your part. They are "cautioning" Russia not to use the price of gas for political influence in Ukraine. Your statements if true would actually have some merit. But, they are not true. Russia will charge what they wish for their gas regardless of what Carney or Kerry thinks or says about it.
I'm not to thrilled with this administration, either. Nor, this administrations foreign policy nor, the babbling Lerch of a Sec of State but, your statements on this matter is just blatantly false.
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Hey fp,
I think you are incorrect on several items.
1. I didn't say financial warfare as it pertains to Russia, although we probably are doing just that at a lower level for the moment.
2. The article characterized the action as a warning. You stated it was merely us 'cautioning' Russia. What's the difference?
3. It appears you believe the USA is not trying to tell Russia what to do. I believe that is precisely what we are trying to do. The purpose of the statements is to stop Russia from charging what they want to charge for gas. If I were deciding what price to charge a nation that was unfriendly the price would be higher.
We do agree about Kerry and Carney.
Fathertime!
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Financial warfare? denying a few oligarchs admittance to the U.S. is hardly financial warfare FT. Carney is just mouth piecing Kerry's empty rhetoric which equates to absolutely nothing but hot air. Also, no where even in your link do they "tell Russia what to charge for their gas". Hyperbole on your part. They are "cautioning" Russia not to use the price of gas for political influence in Ukraine. Your statements if true would actually have some merit. But, they are not true. Russia will charge what they wish for their gas regardless of what Carney or Kerry thinks or says about it.
I'm not to thrilled with this administration, either. Nor, this administrations foreign policy nor, the babbling Lerch of a Sec of State but, your statements on this matter is just blatantly false.
Personally, I feel he looks more like Herman Munster.
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Hey fp,
I think you are incorrect on several items.
1. I didn't say financial warfare as it pertains to Russia, although we probably are doing just that at a lower level for the moment.
2. The article characterized the action as a warning. You stated it was merely us 'cautioning' Russia. What's the difference?
3. It appears you believe the USA is not trying to tell Russia what to do. I believe that is precisely what we are trying to do. The purpose of the statements is to stop Russia from charging what they want to charge for gas. If I were deciding what price to charge a nation that was unfriendly the price would be higher.
We do agree about Kerry and Carney.
Fathertime!
FT, the talk of sanctions by the West against Russia was bandied about early by Obama and Europe quickly dismissed.
No significant difference in cautioning and warning but, there is a pretty significant difference in "Trying to tell Russia what to charge for their gas" and "using their gas to influence Ukraine politically".
Ukraine does not "have to" buy the gas. Russia wants to continue to sell them gas as Ukraine is a valued customer. Russia can sell it for anything they wish or what the world market dictates. Russia wasn't ever "doing Ukraine a favor" by selling them cheap gas. Russia has been using Ukraine to deliver much more volumes of gas to Europe, at much higher prices. Russia can only accomplish this with the pipelines through Ukraine to Europe. Your seemingly idea that Russia is doing Ukraine a favor is pretty much BS, yaknow?
Russia can sell their gas for anything they wish or, what a buyer is willing to pay for it. Kerry's rhetoric does nothing to change that nor is he attempting to tell Russia what price they can or can not sell their own gas. You give the Obama administration much, much too much credit
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Personally, I feel he looks more like Herman Munster.
Maybe Lerch and Herman's love child?
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Hey FP,
I don't recall stating anything about Russia doing Ukraine a favor regarding gas prices.
I think our representatives are trying to call out Russia's decision to raise their gas prices. I find it hypocritical given the types of financial warfare we have enacted in several regions. Given that fact we don't need to comment on thos situation as it just puts a spotlight on how two-faced and hypocritical our representatives are.
Fathertime!
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Father Time,
Get in the ballgame. Russia had subsidized Ukraine's natural gas prices in exchange for leasing a military base and naval base in Crimea. Once Russia had invaded, it raised the price of natural gas to be above the price that Western European nations were paying.
Finally, the bulk of natural gas going to Western Europe flows through a pipeline that traverses Ukraine. The price of transit was affixed, also, as part of the negotiations between Russia and Ukraine and the bases. Russia is attempting to circumvent the Ukraine pipeline by completing a Southern Route. This pipeline has yet to see any traffic, gauging speculation that it is not complete.
So, based on your world wide knowledge and assessments, should Ukraine increase the price of transit to pay for the 1.) The increase in price that Russia is attempting to throw at the Ukrainians and 2.) The compensation for the bases on land that was forcibly taken from Ukraine by the very soldiers who were based on those military installations.
Now you see why the US would use muted words that would state that market rates should prevail. Or perhaps you would like the US to say that Russia is trying beat the Sh*t out of Ukraine in every way possible for being a disobedient vassal. ;D
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Father Time,
Get in the ballgame.
Jone, although you provide pertinent information, I find your 'tone' to be disrespectful. IF you would like to get responses to your questions then you can address me without the dismissing preface...otherwise I will simply engage with those who can carry on a conversation respectfully.
Fathertime!
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FT
You'll be waiting a long time. Some of your ideas are out in left field. If you have problems with a little "Get in the Game" you won't be communicating with many people on here. To each their own.
I find many of your posts to be uninformed, like the last set.
My goal in posting here was not to await your response, but to give a perspective based on the facts on the ground. Whether you respond to me or not, is not significant.
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FT
I find many of your posts to be uninformed, like the last set.
My goal in posting here was not to await your response, but to give a perspective based on the facts on the ground.
So what was 'uninformed' about my earlier statement. At this point I don't agree my statement was uninformed. .I think your assessment of my statement was improperly formulated. In addition one can have all the facts amd yet still draw the wrong conclusions. Case in point is those that insisted Ukraine was sbout to be completely invaded when it was obvious to old uninformed me that it wasn't.
fathertime!
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My opinion is that the closer we get to the Chocolate King as the next President of Ukraine, the closer we will get to seeing an invasion by Russia.
I like your opinion better, because given the current status quo, Ukraine could drag itself out of the hole that it is in given five years of uninterrupted peace. With the demographic changing, absent Crimea, Ukraine becomes a much more pro-West country with new trading partners and a new economy. So, here's to hoping.
(It will be interesting to see if the West makes a bid to receive some of the military-industrial output from Zap and Dnepro to offset the likely rejection that Ukraine is going to receive from the Soviets Russia.)
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Think about this..
1. RU raised gas prices for UA which might well be above market rates.
2. UA is not paying their bills. RU now has 2.2 Billion in unpaid bills at risk
3. RU withdrew 'easy' loans.
4. UA is in a world of hurt at the moment financially.
5. The USA starts balking about raising prices, urging EU to step in reverse gas flows in the pipeline and sell cheap gas to UA.
6. IMF is willing to provide loans to replace those that were revoked by RU, but at a huge cost and hardship to UA in the form of reforms.
8. EU stays silent about providing gas to UA.
The big picture? With all this Putin is simply saying 'You don't like what I did?' I raised the price enough to get back the money we are owed by UA.. ok fine.. the ball is now squarely in your court... deal with it.'
At this point instead of looking into finding ways UA can pay RU 2.2 Billion and asking RU at the same time to sell at market rates, there is a whole lot of crying wolf with self interest in mind.. Now the US is trying to push both UA and EU to reduce RU gas consumption and what?.. what?... well.... buy US gas!!!
Basically the US is asking for an embargo.. now is that not using energy as a weapon? I mean RU just wants to get their bills paid, no more, no less.
http://news.yahoo.com/eu-us-vow-help-wean-ukraine-off-russian-135636962--finance.html
So yes, it's an economic war....
In the end, even if the west moves to block out RU as a gas supplier, UA payment problems will only shift on the back of the west and RU has a lot of room to drop prices, raising the cost of all these 'emergency efforts' to save UA...
My goodness... it's about time we all realize we live in a closed environment.. what goes around comes around.
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Think about this..
1. RU raised gas prices for UA which might well be above market rates.
2. UA is not paying their bills. RU now has 2.2 Billion in unpaid bills at risk
3. RU withdrew 'easy' loans.
4. UA is in a world of hurt at the moment financially.
5. The USA starts balking about raising prices, urging EU to step in reverse gas flows in the pipeline and sell cheap gas to UA.
6. IMF is willing to provide loans to replace those that were revoked by RU, but at a huge cost and hardship to UA in the form of reforms.
8. EU stays silent about providing gas to UA.
The big picture? With all this Putin is simply saying 'You don't like what I did?' I raised the price enough to get back the money we are owed by UA.. ok fine.. the ball is now squarely in your court... deal with it.'
At this point instead of looking into finding ways UA can pay RU 2.2 Billion and asking RU at the same time to sell at market rates, there is a whole lot of crying wolf with self interest in mind.. Now the US is trying to push both UA and EU to reduce RU gas consumption and what?.. what?... well.... buy US gas!!!
Basically the US is asking for an embargo.. now is that not using energy as a weapon? I mean RU just wants to get their bills paid, no more, no less.
http://news.yahoo.com/eu-us-vow-help-wean-ukraine-off-russian-135636962--finance.html
So yes, it's an economic war....
In the end, even if the west moves to block out RU as a gas supplier, UA payment problems will only shift on the back of the west and RU has a lot of room to drop prices, raising the cost of all these 'emergency efforts' to save UA...
My goodness... it's about time we all realize we live in a closed environment.. what goes around comes around.
Where's 7?
Actually I agree with much of what you post, BC. Again you come across as informed. Obviously, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is that stinky little fact that the reason Ukraine was receiving the discounted price was because of Crimea.
Russia has the tendency to forgive itself that small incursion and as to how it impacts the price of gas. So, yes, Russia is now using the stick and the stick method (as opposed to the carrot and the stick). On one hand, we invaded you and took away our reason for subsidizing your gas, so on the other hand you have to pay us back the money that you owe us, plus any accrued debt, plus interest.
Your scoffing at everyone in Europe tightening their belts to punish Russia is, of course, spot on. Ain't gonna happen. I see a much more protracted response.
Quite honestly, it all goes back to Russia being reactionary instead of thoughtful when Euromaidan happened. I would still support the idea that no matter what Russia does, it will find itself in a world of hurt a couple years down the road. Having played their cards right, they might be controlling the whole shebang right now. But then there is that pesky little problem coming out that people are discovering that it is likely that the FSB was in the mix shooting people in Kyiv.
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Great post BC, it is completely ridiculous that we would moan about Russia given what we are engaging in and trying to engage in.
Fathertime!
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I mean RU just wants to get their bills paid, no more, no less.
Maybe RU should submit its bills to the World Court. And Ukraine could submit a bill to the World Court for Russia's illegal seizure of property otherwise known as Crimea. What should Russia pay for Crimea in today's market?
My goodness... it's about time we all realize we live in a closed environment.. what goes around comes around.
Yes, and it is happening in the immediate short term. And paths will cross again over the long term, especially given the fact that Russia's pipelines are in Ukraine.
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Jone posted a WSJ article about what would Reagan do in Ukraine. The conclusion is that Reagan would be disappointed that America is not taking the lead. That set me back because this is mainly Europe's issue, their backyard, their gas, and their future trade partner.
So how did we get where the US is not showing more leadership and deferring to Europe? For an answer, please watch this recent short video of Hillary Clinton explaining her accomplishments as Secretary of State. She struggles yet summarizes by saying how the Obama administration has restored American leadership. What?
She mentions Ukraine at the 1:30 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMWZeLqwllY
I just hope that Europe shows the fortitude of a Reagan.
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My goal in posting here was not to await your response, but to give a perspective based on the facts on the ground.
Not much facts were presented in reality so I'll try to fill a gap on Gazprom.
Gazprom employs a pricing model, so-called Holland or Groningen model which had appeared back in the 1970s, when the Netherlands started to export gas from the Groningen deposit. The model was based on tying the gas prices to the cost of its replacement, i.e., the cost of an alternative for the customer type of energy. For Ukraine the model uses oil product composition, 50% of fuel oil plus 50% of diesel fuel. Contracted volume and risk insurance are both included in the price tag.
Gasprom correlates its prices with the time lag from 6 to 9 months in relation to oil spot market.
The contract price is commercial classified information, except Ukraine where the gas price became a political factor. Russian newspaper Izvestiya collected info on topic from undisclosed sources for 2012. The following map shows Gazprom charge in EU countries, in US$ per 1000 cubic meters (the number in purse icon) :
(http://content.izvestia.ru/media/3/news/2013/01/544100/58c84574603fe222fdadde86f68576fc.jpg)
Highest price, 564.3 $, in Macedonia, the next one is Poland, 525,5$.
Current price tag for Ukraine is 485 $.
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Thanks Belvis, as usual, very informative. Such a pricing system is used in many businesses: what are the seller's costs, what would a customer have to pay to obtain the product/service from the lowest-priced alternative provider, and find some price level between these two numbers that keeps the customer happy and using.
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ANDREWFI, you still living in Estonia or in touch with friends there? What is the general mood of of the Baltic nations towards Russia due to recent events?
I think we are better off letting countries sort out their issues the best they can, and deal with who is left standing.
China has a lot of territorial disputes with just about every Asian nation surrounding them. If they, not international court, get to decide who owns the land, they will win every dispute.
Our 'help' is rarely seen as an act of kindness, although that is the phony way our govt 'representatives' always characterize it. That line of thinking just doesn't sell like it used to, imo.
I know America does what in their best interest and saving lives is not our only interest or even main interest. We will go to war in Libya because there's big oil there. Same problems in Syria but not worth our time since they don't have much to offer back to us if we engage in business with them.
There's nothing wrong with taking care of personal interests. If I see family and friends being assaulted, I would not stand idle and let them sort it all out. I will take action. On the other hand, I would not provide a homeless man with the same level of protection since he doesn't have a relationship with me and has little to offer in return.
Dude, being blind with our country's historical legacy does not bring merit to any of your silly argument. It simply render you clueless. I can cite you multiple historical facts that counter that silly statement above, but lack of knowledge or education is obviously not what ails you.
Game Over. You win GQ. I learned a long time ago I can't reason with people who think our government was responsible for 9/11 and the Tsarnaev brothers are being framed by our government for the Boston Bombings.
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Not much facts were presented in reality so I'll try to fill a gap on Gazprom....
Good information! Just as BC's post.
...Game Over. You win GQ. I learned a long time ago I can't reason with people who think our government was responsible for 9/11 and the Tsarnaev brothers are being framed by our government for the Boston Bombings.
Ditch, deflection and run! Pronto!
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China has a lot of territorial disputes with just about every Asian nation surrounding them. If they, not international court, get to decide who owns the land, they will win every dispute.
I know America does what in their best interest and saving lives is not our only interest or even main interest. We will go to war in Libya because there's big oil there. Same problems in Syria but not worth our time since they don't have much to offer back to us if we engage in business with them.
There's nothing wrong with taking care of personal interests. If I see family and friends being assaulted, I would not stand idle and let them sort it all out. I will take action. On the other hand, I would not provide a homeless man with the same level of protection since he doesn't have a relationship with me and has little to offer in return.
Hey billyb, I agree with what you have said for the most part…if what you are saying is true, then we (the US) shouldn’t be going around a stating how we are trying to help when in reality he we are merely doing what is in our interests. Oftentimes we aren't actually helping at all..we are actually creating situations which may be in our interests….but not in all the dead people’s that we were ‘helping’… If we are just doing things in our self-interest we shouldn't prance Kerry out there and act like we are the world’s moral authority…
I think we would do just fine if we gave up the post of ‘world policeman’ when actually we are behaving like world mercenaries….I believe we would be better served to build up our own country from within. The world is a tough place..always will be...we aren't changing much anyway. Sure if there is a hurricane or a natural disaster, we should go in and help if we can...but all this other meddling like in Cuba is an outrage.
Fathertime!
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Not much facts were presented in reality so I'll try to fill a gap on Gazprom.
Gazprom employs a pricing model, so-called Holland or Groningen model which had appeared back in the 1970s, when the Netherlands started to export gas from the Groningen deposit. The model was based on tying the gas prices to the cost of its replacement, i.e., the cost of an alternative for the customer type of energy. For Ukraine the model uses oil product composition, 50% of fuel oil plus 50% of diesel fuel. Contracted volume and risk insurance are both included in the price tag.
Gasprom correlates its prices with the time lag from 6 to 9 months in relation to oil spot market.
The contract price is commercial classified information, except Ukraine where the gas price became a political factor. Russian newspaper Izvestiya collected info on topic from undisclosed sources for 2012. The following map shows Gazprom charge in EU countries, in US$ per 1000 cubic meters (the number in purse icon) :
(http://content.izvestia.ru/media/3/news/2013/01/544100/58c84574603fe222fdadde86f68576fc.jpg)
Highest price, 564.3 $, in Macedonia, the next one is Poland, 525,5$.
Current price tag for Ukraine is 485 $.
Of course, part of the pricing model is the cost to ship the gas to the location. But, since most of the natural gas going to those locations is going through the Ukrainian pipeline, once again, you have to tell the complete story. The cost to get the gas through Ukraine, when it is the sourcing country, is (and should be) reduced as there are no transit fees.
So, what would be a fair transit fee to use the pipeline through Ukraine to these other areas? Skew the model a bit? Just curious.
All of these models were part of an elaborate negotiation that was completed with the leasing of the Bases in Crimea through 2042. Now, according to the Ukrainians, Russia wants to charge top dollar for gas that it is not paying a transit fee to distribute. Of course, Ukraine doesn't recognize the annexation of Crimea in the first place, so any distribution of gas under the new model is also subject to review.
Talk about BC's closed model. Here it is! But Russia will certainly put out it's 'adjusted' Gazprom map showing the world how fair they are. When everyone in Ukraine knows exactly what Russia is doing.
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Hey billyb, I agree with what you have said for the most part…if what you are saying is true, then we (the US) shouldn’t be going around a stating how we are trying to help when in reality he we are merely doing what is in our interests. Oftentimes we aren't actually helping at all..we are actually creating situations which may be in our interests….
Which is what history has shown umpteenth times for thousands of years ;).
I cannot remember ONE instance - please correct me if my memory is at fault - where a nation has intervened aggressively abroad for UN-interested motives, despite any more or less plausible excuses to the contrary :(.
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Highest price, 564.3 $, in Macedonia, the next one is Poland, 525,5$.
Current price tag for Ukraine is 485 $.
According to the article in the link below Fathertime provided earlier, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said Russia is raising the price by $100 to $485 for every 1,000 cubic meters of gas. That means Ukraine will pay the highest price and it's price could be double of what they're paying now.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-russia-against-gas-hikes-hurt-ukraine-181319430.html
Some people say Ukraine never paid it's bills. Is it the fault of Ukrainian citizens? Russia was in control of Ukraine not too long ago. Putin's puppet, Yanukovych was in power and if Putin told him pay now, Ukraine would be paying now one way or another such as coming out of the billions of dollars Yanukovych stole or was paid by Russia as bribes. Russia may have seen advantages of keeping Ukraine in debt to them.
This is not the first time Putin lost his investments to the West. During the second Gulf War, America went in and changed leadership in Iraq. Russia violated UN resolutions after the first Gulf War by doing business with Saddam Insane. Saddam owed Russia billions at the time he was removed.
we (the US) shouldn’t be going around a stating how we are trying to help when in reality he we are merely doing what is in our interests.
We the people sometimes need to hear a different answer in order to do the right thing. During WWI and WWII we came to Europe's rescue. Our biggest interest in Europe is business opportunities. I don't think our presidents at the time could sell the idea on sending American troops to protect business interests alone. Saving lives sounds like a better answer but it's not a lie either. Although our government protects our interests, Americans are compassionate. When we see people dying, we have an increase in volunteers signing up for the military.
There were a time America increased its borders with money, force, and theft. We were no different than other nations, kingdoms and empires with ambitions to grow. We had slavery and severe discrimination. We had some very corrupt presidents too. America grew up. Today we are a much different nation. We have all this power and don't seek to extend our borders. Instead we use our might to protect other people's borders and enforce international laws. I don't think there was ever a case like this in history. America is not perfect but this may be as good as it gets.
I cannot remember ONE instance - please correct me if my memory is at fault - where a nation has intervened aggressively abroad for UN-interested motives, despite any more or less plausible excuses to the contrary :(.
It's hard to get the UN to agree on anything aggressive. Everybody has a friend they want to protect and will vote against or veto any action against them and their buddies.
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...I cannot remember ONE instance - please correct me if my memory is at fault - where a nation has intervened aggressively abroad for UN-interested motives, despite any more or less plausible excuses to the contrary :( .
....It's hard to get the UN to agree on anything aggressive. Everybody has a friend they want to protect and will vote against or veto any action against them and their buddies.
LOL.
>:D
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Which is what history has shown umpteenth times for thousands of years ;) .
I cannot remember ONE instance - please correct me if my memory is at fault - where a nation has intervened aggressively abroad for UN-interested motives, despite any more or less plausible excuses to the contrary :( .
Hey Sandro,
I can't think of any instances either.
We the people sometimes need to hear a different answer in order to do the right thing. During WWI and WWII we came to Europe's rescue. Our biggest interest in Europe is business opportunities. I don't think our presidents at the time could sell the idea on sending American troops to protect business interests alone. Saving lives sounds like a better answer but it's not a lie either. Although our government protects our interests, Americans are compassionate. When we see people dying, we have an increase in volunteers signing up for the military.
Hey Billyb, I don't really think that is the case...I for one would might be more supportive if I knew THE REAL REASON why we were entering some of these conflicts and interventions...then again I might not be...it would just depend...One thing is for certain when I feel I'm being lied to, I will show no support...I think as a country a lot of Americans feel the same way. Be truthful about why we should get involved, and don't fill us up with bull...since we don't get the truth, to hell with our 'representatives' desires.
Fathertime!
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According to the article in the link below Fathertime provided earlier, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said Russia is raising the price by $100 to $485 for every 1,000 cubic meters of gas. That means Ukraine will pay the highest price and it's price could be double of what they're paying now.
In short :
(http://forex-images.instaforex.com/humor/source/co/04735fe8599575ed1a5ad190ac83ebf9.jpg)
More detailed commentary:
Ukraine received a $100 discount for gas under the 2010 agreement in exchange for the Russia's Black Sea Fleet stationed in Ukraine.
In December 2013, Ukraine received another politically motivated gas discount, effectively cutting the price to $268 per 1,000 cubic meters of gas. The last discount was made to support Yanukovich in power. An extract from the agreement:
A contract amendment was agreed between Gazprom and Naftogaz on Dec 18, 2013 and was effective as of Jan 1, 2014. The purpose of the deal was to ease the financial pressure on Ukraine and allow it to continue to buy gas and fulfill its contractual obligations towards Gazprom.
According to this amendment, Gazprom and Naftogaz are to sign quarterly agreements (by the 10th of each quarter) confirming the $268 price for Ukraine.
In exchange for this discounted price, the amendment requires Natftogaz to make full and timely monthly payments for gas supply. Should it fails to do so, the price of gas would then return to the 2009 pricing formula.
After the coup Russia canceled the December gas discount, raising the price to $385.50. Naftogaz just has failed to pay in term and broke the agreement from December 2013.
Then Russia has terminated the agreement on the basing of the Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, and correspondently has retracted a related discount on export duties on gas increasing the price to standard commercial level of $485.50.
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We the people sometimes need to hear a different answer in order to do the right thing. During WWI and WWII we came to Europe's rescue. Our biggest interest in Europe is business opportunities. I don't think our presidents at the time could sell the idea on sending American troops to protect business interests alone. Saving lives sounds like a better answer but it's not a lie either. Although our government protects our interests, Americans are compassionate. When we see people dying, we have an increase in volunteers signing up for the military.
Not entirely sure on that one. If I remember correctly the US supported the Allies (Europe, Russia, China) during WWII but, they did not enter the fray until after Pearl Harbour. Would they have entered the war if Japan had not attacked the US? A deal was made between the Allies to first try to defeat the Germans/Italians, in Europe and to then try to defeat the Japanese. The movies may show otherwise but there were significant troops from the European allies involved in the Asian-Pacific theatre and it was clear during the early 40's that the allies could not go for victory on two fronts in one go.
Re WWI, they did not join until Germany resumed unrestricted submarine warfare and basically told the mexicans to join them and attack the US, and even then the US waited until merchant ships started being sunk by the german submarines aqgain.
In neither case was the US in a big hurry to join the fray until long after the shooting had started, and not until acts of war had been committed against the US specifically. In WWI they were not even officially members of the Allies.
Of course, Hollywood paints a slightly different picture at times....
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In short :
(http://forex-images.instaforex.com/humor/source/co/04735fe8599575ed1a5ad190ac83ebf9.jpg)
More detailed commentary:
Ukraine received a $100 discount for gas under the 2010 agreement in exchange for the Russia's Black Sea Fleet stationed in Ukraine.
In December 2013, Ukraine received another politically motivated gas discount, effectively cutting the price to $268 per 1,000 cubic meters of gas. The last discount was made to support Yanukovich in power. An extract from the agreement:
After the coup Russia canceled the December gas discount, raising the price to $385.50. Naftogaz just has failed to pay in term and broke the agreement from December 2013.
Then Russia has terminated the agreement on the basing of the Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, and correspondently has retracted a related discount on export duties on gas increasing the price to standard commercial level of $485.50.
Thanks Belvis, your input has been very informative.
I read this morning that the acting leader of Ukraine complaining that it is unfair that Russia raise the prices from the rock bottom price they were charging before. He said it would not be accepted. Well what does he plan to do then? I would think he can accept it or go find gas somewhere else.
It seems to me that the new price of $485 is in line with what other nations are being charged...the $268 figure was incredibly low...
The fact remains that Russia has the resource (and the power) and can charge whatever they can get. I would think that once Ukraine and the US decide to move on and tone down the empty rhetoric, the Russians would work out a price that was mutually beneficial. As it stands, Russia probably doesn't want to cut Ukraine a break at this time.
[size=78%]http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26902522 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26902522)[/size]
Fathertime!
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It is not empty rhetoric when you control Russia's pipeline to all of their other customers. Once again, you fail to see the dynamic.
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It is not empty rhetoric when you control Russia's pipeline to all of their other customers. Once again, you fail to see the dynamic.
I have to disagree again, if you are implying that gas will be cut off to Europe. You are failing to understand the dynamic. Ukraine leadership has already stated that they will not be attempting to cut off the gas. The rhetoric is empty, there is nothing very important Ukraine can or will do. They can pay the price for gas that Russia asks, or they can get their gas elsewhere...perhaps they can attempt to work in concert with Russia as well.
Fathertime!
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I have to disagree again, if you are implying that gas will be cut off to Europe. You are failing to understand the dynamic. Ukraine leadership has already stated that they will not be attempting to cut off the gas. The rhetoric is empty, there is nothing very important Ukraine can or will do. They can pay the price for gas that Russia asks, or they can get their gas elsewhere...perhaps they can attempt to work in concert with Russia as well.
Fathertime!
That's correct. They can pay RU's price or get it elsewhere.
Do you really expect the leadership to say they will interrupt RU's pipeline? Obviously, agreements between the two countries are not worth the paper they are written on. There are thousands of miles of Russian pipelines in Ukraine. You do the math
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That's correct. They can pay RU's price or get it elsewhere.
Do you really expect the leadership to say they will interrupt RU's pipeline? Obviously, agreements between the two countries are not worth the paper they are written on. There are thousands of miles of Russian pipelines in Ukraine. You do the math
I don’t think they will say it or do it...but hey they could try but the consequences seem like they would be pretty bad from every direction….In addition I’ve read that Russia does have other pipelines they use such as the Nord Sea Pipeline and Pipes through Belarus and Poland. From what I’m gathering, Russia holds most of the important cards and remains in position to dictate terms regarding the price of their gas. Ukraine would be better served at this point to move on, go west if they like, forget about Crimea. They still have a large country. If they can figure out how to create a fair governing body, they might do pretty good down the line.
Fathertime!
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If FT writes in bold and italics - it gives more weight to his words! :rolleyes:
FT, I thought you weren't responding to me, because I don't treat you well enough?
Are your really so naive as to think that the dynamic is not in play when you control the pipeline that Russia needs for the rest of Europe? Do you really not understand what is ongoing here? Why do you think all of those tanks and helicopters are on the border? It ain't because the Russians want to sing Slava Ukrainia in Kyiv. It is because the entire Russian economy depends on that one pipeline to deliver LGN to Europe.
Kyiv shuts off the gas flowing - Russia invades. It is that simple. Only it is not. What do you expect the Ukrainian government to say? The price of Gas in Ukraine is only one factor in play here. The other factors are of greater importance because they control much of the energy used by Europe and much of the economy for Russia.
I don't believe that the policies have been determined for either country yet. Ukraine is waiting for the elections to determine what its policy will be. And Russia is waiting for the anticipated outcome to determine whether it invades.
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If FT writes in bold and italics - it gives more weight to his words! :rolleyes:
FT, I thought you weren't responding to me, because I don't treat you well enough?
Are your really so naive as to think that the dynamic is not in play when you control the pipeline that Russia needs for the rest of Europe? Do you really not understand what is ongoing here? Why do you think all of those tanks and helicopters are on the border? It ain't because the Russians want to sing Slava Ukrainia in Kyiv. It is because the entire Russian economy depends on that one pipeline to deliver LGN to Europe.
Kyiv shuts off the gas flowing - Russia invades. It is that simple. Only it is not. What do you expect the Ukrainian government to say? The price of Gas in Ukraine is only one factor in play here. The other factors are of greater importance because they control much of the energy used by Europe and much of the economy for Russia.
I don't believe that the policies have been determined for either country yet. Ukraine is waiting for the elections to determine what its policy will be. And Russia is waiting for the anticipated outcome to determine whether it invades.
I judge your misbehavior post by post. I didn’t see any reason not to respond. I see you like my font, since you are so interested, I’m using a different program and this is the default option. Thanks for noticing and giving more ‘weight to my words’….
Earlier you were convinced the troops were invading Ukraine, now you agree they are there for other reasons…that is progress….I’m glad Belvis came on board and clarified some of your earlier misstatements. It appears to me that Russia has other options to deliver its gas. Russia is in the driver’s seat. They hold the vital national resource. Ukraine will pay much more if they import from the USA or anywhere else. Eventually Ukraine will accept that they lost Crimea and it will be business as usual. As a matter of fact it could turn into a Win-win as Ukraine was already in turmoil and now they have a chance to change that.
Fathertime!
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Your assertions that the bulk of the gas could go through a different pipeline is mistaken.
As stated in previous posts, there is a Southern Pipeline that could handle the bulk of the transfer. But, as I opined earlier, since that pipeline is not producing, my conjecture is that it is not ready yet. The bulk of the transfer to Europe goes from Russia through Ukraine to Europe.
As for your win/win strategy, I could care less whether Crimea goes back to Ukraine. Currently the country is very angry towards Russia. I don't see that changing much. It is never a 'win' for a country when they are invaded and part of their territory is taken from them. What planet are you on?
As for Russia, they received as someone recently said, a piece of bad fruit that they swiped from the neighbor's tree. Not a bad analogy. It is a pyrrhic victory. One that is sentimental to the Soviets Russians but will cost Russia so much as to be devastating to their future. Perhaps even a better analogy would be a guy who goes out and sleeps with a woman, not his wife. He gains a great new lover, but lovers tend to diminish in time. To get her he sacrificed his family. Remember my words two years from now.
Such is your win/win.
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This is an interesting read:
http://www.kommersant.com/p804680/Oil_Sector/
I always felt that a breakaway Ukraine could nationalize the pipeline going through its territory if it had the leadership to do what Russia did to Exxon and Shell.
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Your assertions that the bulk of the gas could go through a different pipeline is mistaken.
I noticed you added in ‘the bulk of’…I didn’t assert that, but you just did. I did read that the Ukrainian pipeline carries roughly 40% of Europe's gas.
..
As for your win/win strategy, I could care less whether Crimea goes back to Ukraine. Currently the country is very angry towards Russia. I don't see that changing much. It is never a 'win' for a country when they are invaded and part of their territory is taken from them. What planet are you on?
I disagree, that losing part of a country is ALWAYS a negative. The positives in the long run may well be worth the loss. I’m here on earth, are you in space, (space cadet perhaps).
As for Russia, they received as someone recently said, a piece of bad fruit that they swiped from the neighbor's tree. Not a bad analogy. It is a pyrrhic victory. One that is sentimental to the Soviets Russians but will cost Russia so much as to be devastating to their future. Perhaps even a better analogy would be a guy who goes out and sleeps with a woman, not his wife. He gains a great new lover, but lovers tend to diminish in time. To get her he sacrificed his family. Remember my words two years from now.
Such is your win/win.
I don’t foresee many real consequences for Russia down the road…just a little bluster here and there…If their position is strengthened that is a good thing for the people of the USA and the world. BTW it is not a win/win ‘strategy’ It is a win/win situation. Although saying that is unpopular here, I think down the road a few years it will be the prevailing opinion..we shall see…but I definitely don’t buy all the rotten fruit analogies as it pertains to this situation. Russia took a vital port area for them in a somewhat ambiguous situation where they could make a justification that washes well enough. They likely would have been shut out down the line so it was the right move for them to make.
Fathertime!
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I noticed you added in ‘the bulk of’…I didn’t assert that, but you just did. I did read that the Ukrainian pipeline carries roughly 40% of Europe's gas.
I disagree, that losing part of a country is ALWAYS a negative. The positives in the long run may well be worth the loss. I’m here on earth, are you in space, (space cadet perhaps).
I don’t foresee many real consequences for Russia down the road…just a little bluster here and there…If their position is strengthened that is a good thing for the people of the USA and the world. BTW it is not a win/win ‘strategy’ It is a win/win situation. Although saying that is unpopular here, I think down the road a few years it will be the prevailing opinion..we shall see…but I definitely don’t buy all the rotten fruit analogies as it pertains to this situation. Russia took a vital port area for them in a somewhat ambiguous situation where they could make a justification that washes well enough. They likely would have been shut out down the line so it was the right move for them to make.
Fathertime!
Unless I'm mistaken, you previously have stated that your profession is doctor. So let me give this in terms of a medical analogy.
You are a physician and tell a patient he has gangrene. Your solution is to cut off a portion of his leg to save his body. You call this situation a win for him. A win for him would have been never to have gotten gangrene to begin with.
Sorry, FT. Ain't no one here buying that losing Krim is a win for Ukraine. Just ask your average Ukrainian who used to vacation in Yalta. Or for that matter, how many of the people on this forum would now choose to spend their vacation time in Yalta or Krim? Belvis, perhaps?
You see things through rose colored glasses. But your pocket book isn't impacted, like say, Mr. and Mrs. Calmissile who own an apartment that (used to) receive(s) rent in Krim. While I'm sure that the majority of Krim residents are currently happy that they belong to Russia now, it was an emotional and shotgun affair and those usually turn out to be short lived weddings. And you think that the paradigm hasn't changed permanently as to how Russia is perceived in the world?
Angela Merkel is meeting with her cabinet this week to begin an alternative energy strategy. Germany is Russia's largest purchaser of natural gas. Things are changing in the world. And not in Russia's favor. No matter how much RT says they are.
Osettia was off the grid and everyone felt Saakashvili was somewhat pulling the Bear's stubby tail. But Krim is a totally different story. And the world is not digesting this story well.
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Unless I'm mistaken, you previously have stated that your profession is doctor. So let me give this in terms of a medical analogy.
You are a physician and tell a patient he has gangrene. Your solution is to cut off a portion of his leg to save his body. You call this situation a win for him. A win for him would have been never to have gotten gangrene to begin with.
Sorry, FT. Ain't no one here buying that losing Krim is a win for Ukraine. Just ask your average Ukrainian who used to vacation in Yalta. Or for that matter, how many of the people on this forum would now choose to spend their vacation time in Yalta or Krim? Belvis, perhaps?
You see things through rose colored glasses. But your pocket book isn't impacted, like say, Mr. and Mrs. Calmissile who own an apartment that (used to) receive(s) rent in Krim. While I'm sure that the majority of Krim residents are currently happy that they belong to Russia now, it was an emotional and shotgun affair and those usually turn out to be short lived weddings. And you think that the paradigm hasn't changed permanently as to how Russia is perceived in the world?
Angela Merkel is meeting with her cabinet this week to begin an alternative energy strategy. Germany is Russia's largest purchaser of natural gas. Things are changing in the world. And not in Russia's favor. No matter how much RT says they are.
Osettia was off the grid and everyone felt Saakashvili was somewhat pulling the Bear's stubby tail. But Krim is a totally different story. And the world is not digesting this story well.
I know for a fact that I’ve never stated I was a physician on this forum or in chat or PM.so that is just silliness and not relevant….my opinions come from being a member here..that is all.
I realize that few people here are buying that this is a win/win long term…that is fine. Regardless, my opinion is that it will be…in a few years…I think eventually Ukraine will accept (as best they can) what has happened and move on…I realize that some people are going to be damaged by what has happened…the world is a rough place and sometimes these things do happen…all things considered for such a move very little loss of life occurred…
Actually, I think the world IS digesting this Krim situation just fine…I don't see a worldwide outrage about it…channels like CNN are even somewhat perplexed about what to make of what has happened…this was never going to be a large scale invasion…a specific region for a specific reason…made sense to me…and believe it or not I’m pro-American…and I see this as a positive for us as well as Ukraine and Russia.
Fathertime!
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I know for a fact that I’ve never stated I was a physician on this forum or in chat or PM.so that is just silliness and not relevant….my opinions come from being a member here..that is all.
I realize that few people here are buying that this is a win/win long term…that is fine. Regardless, my opinion is that it will be…in a few years…I think eventually Ukraine will accept (as best they can) what has happened and move on…I realize that some people are going to be damaged by what has happened…the world is a rough place and sometimes these things do happen…all things considered for such a move very little loss of life occurred…
Actually, I think the world IS digesting this Krim situation just fine…I don't see a worldwide outrage about it…channels like CNN are even somewhat perplexed about what to make of what has happened…this was never going to be a large scale invasion…a specific region for a specific reason…made sense to me…and believe it or not I’m pro-American…and I see this as a positive for us as well as Ukraine and Russia.
Fathertime!
Father Time's Win/Win
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/the-new-cold-war/497466.html
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In December 2013, Ukraine received another politically motivated gas discount, effectively cutting the price to $268 per 1,000 cubic meters of gas. The last discount was made to support Yanukovich in power.
That sounds like a good deal but knowing how smart Putin is, Russia benefits more even at those low prices. If I were the president of Russia and by selling gas at half price, I get use of a naval base and control of a president of say Germany, France, Ukraine, or any other country, I'd do the same thing Putin did. Controlling a president of a nation more than makes up any loss from low price gas sales.
Now that Putin doesn't have control over Ukraine, Russia has the right to raise prices to normal levels. If they use their leverage to maximize their profits, eventually they may lose a customer(Ukraine) when cheaper options become available.
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Father Time's Win/Win
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/the-new-cold-war/497466.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/the-new-cold-war/497466.html)
It doesn't seem very mature of you to add my username to an article I didn't author, endorse, comment on, or have anything to do with.
If I were to play this game I would now have to link articles that support the position I’ve taken and write Jone’s hysterics or something like it.
I’d rather exchange ideas and/or link articles, and leave the immaturity out of it.
Fathertime!
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It doesn't seem very mature of you to add my username to an article I didn't author, endorse, comment on, or have anything to do with.
If I were to play this game I would now have to link articles that support the position I’ve taken and write Jone’s hysterics or something like it.
I’d rather exchange ideas and/or link articles, and leave the immaturity out of it.
Fathertime!
What a whiner.
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What a whiner.
You obviously never completed finishing school, or were raised by negligent parents. I stated that I would prefer to focus on the issue, not your immaturity. That is a reasonable thing to say, and doesn’t constitute ‘whining’. Meanwhile when presented with a differing opinion, you immediately start trembling, and soiling yourself all over the website. Just because the ‘invasion’ you desperately desired hasn’t materialized you don’t have to get so testy. I’ve been willing to talk about the reasoning that leads me to the conclusions I’ve drawn, instead you would like to flame, probably because you ‘informed’ assessments regarding Ukraine/Russia were SO incorrect.
Fathertime!
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Game Over. You win GQ. I learned a long time ago I can't reason with people who think our government was responsible for 9/11 and the Tsarnaev brothers are being framed by our government for the Boston Bombings.
That was never GQ's positions on those issues... they are mine actually. Too bad the FBI had to shoot the one unarmed associate of the elder brother in the back of the head while undergoing interrogation
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You originally came onto this forum demanding an apology from an FSU Woman? Do you recall? You argue every little personal detail. My god, man. You act like some women I knew. And they were not FSU Women. They were sniveling gals who would cackle like hens.
You put up a response telling how great your win/win ideas were and that Russia would have everything forgotten by all of the world in a short two years. So I responded directly to your assertion by an Opinion article that Russia had essentially started a new cold war.
You whined that I just put up the link. I really didn't have to say any more. It effectively refuted you. So instead of refuting what the article said, you WHINED. If you had something to contribute to your argument, you should have said it.
If your sensibilities are so offended by what I have to say, wait until the aggressive people start to have you for lunch.
;D
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You originally came onto this forum demanding an apology from an FSU Woman? Do you recall?
No I do not remember that…WHY because I never did. It would be very easy for you to prove me wrong though..provide the quote. Show me where I EVER demanded an apology from a woman on this forum. It never happened. You are either mistaken or a liar. You can choose which. I gotta chuckle though because I know you are mistaken, like usual.
You put up a response telling how great your win/win ideas were and that Russia would have everything forgotten by all of the world in a short two years. So I responded directly to your assertion by an Opinion article that Russia had essentially started a new cold war.
You whined that I just put up the link. I really didn't have to say any more. It effectively refuted you. So instead of refuting what the article said, you WHINED. If you had something to contribute to your argument, you should have said it.
If your sensibilities are so offended by what I have to say, wait until the aggressive people start to have you for lunch.
Gee I’m really petrified of the ‘aggressive’ people of the forum that might ‘eat me for lunch’. . I guess I have to educate you further, an ‘article’ doesn’t refute anything as it is also an opinion. The facts on the ground can refute only and were talking about the future.
So are you done whining about my ‘whining’? I don’t always have to refute what every article says, I decided to deal with the inflammatory and dishonest way you presented it.
Fathertime!
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Responding to the original question: "What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
Quite likely, exactly like this situation in Crimea.. a battle of wits, smarts, economics and winning over peoples.
If anything (I hope) both sides have learned over the last decades that armed conflict is simply too costly, destructive and only foments discord among those affected, usually prolonging final resolution. - in other words zip.
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Responding to the original question: "What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
Quite likely, exactly like this situation in Crimea.. a battle of wits, smarts, economics and winning over peoples.
I'll add my 5 cents:
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/loboff/25131059/17721/17721_900.jpg)
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Responding to the original question: "What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
The war has already started. It will be America/EU stationing military and missile bases on Russia's border. It will be is Vladimir Putin persuading other nations to dump the dollar as the reserve currency and start direct exchanges using their own currency. Already a deal has been worked out between Iran and Russia as well as with India. Ordinary Americans are going to get hurt real bad when prices rise dramatically on foreign produced goods.
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It will be is Vladimir Putin persuading other nations to dump the dollar as the reserve currency and start direct exchanges using their own currency. Already a deal has been worked out between Iran and Russia as well as with India. Ordinary Americans are going to get hurt real bad when prices rise dramatically on foreign produced goods.
Don't forget the meetings he had with China encouraging them work together to dump the dollar too. Speaking of China, they are currently purging all their "corrupt" officers in the military. Stalin President Xi Jinping is making sure all officers believe in his program and are loyal.
Some people may get their wish someday. Someone else, other than America, will rule the world.
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It's started. Pro Russian protestors breaking into government buildings and causing violence. If there were a viable pro Russian candidate for the presidency, I don't think this would happen. Now violence needs to happen to get things spiraling out of control and a few Russian citizens need to get killed before Putin goes in and rescue them with his army. He will monitor new elections in East Ukraine's desire to join Russia. Putin will again look like a good guy for doing the right thing protecting people and giving them the freedom to exercise their right to vote.
http://news.yahoo.com/pro-russians-storm-ukraine-government-buildings-145538760.html
http://news.yahoo.com/pro-russians-storm-government-building-eastern-ukraine-132011839.html
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It's started. Pro Russian protestors breaking into government buildings and causing violence. If there were a viable pro Russian candidate for the presidency, I don't think this would happen. Now violence needs to happen to get things spiraling out of control and a few Russian citizens need to get killed before Putin goes in and rescue them with his army. He will monitor new elections in East Ukraine's desire to join Russia. Putin will again look like a good guy for doing the right thing protecting people and giving them the freedom to exercise their right to vote.
http://news.yahoo.com/pro-russians-storm-ukraine-government-buildings-145538760.html
http://news.yahoo.com/pro-russians-storm-government-building-eastern-ukraine-132011839.html
This is a very small number: Only 200. But it could very easily change quickly. I agree that the Russians have already seen that no Pro-Russian candidate will emerge and that this will set Moscow into attack mode.
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I still don't see a big invasion by Russia in the cards....they took what they really want already...they don't seem to be lacking coal so why would they bother with the hassle and turmoil of these cities?...in addition I don't think they can concoct a story that will wash as well as the Crimea narrative has gone...I think they realize the world probably would react badly to further incursions....
Fathertime!
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I still don't see a big invasion by Russia in the cards....they took what they really want already...they don't seem to be lacking coal so why would they bother with the hassle and turmoil of these cities?...in addition I don't think they can concoct a story that will wash as well as the Crimea narrative has gone...I think they realize the world probably would react badly to further incursions....
Fathertime!
I would very much like you to be right and me wrong.
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they don't seem to be lacking coal so why would they bother with the hassle and turmoil of these cities?...
Those cities have people. Without people to sell to, resources aren't worth anything. The more people Russia has in control, the more profits.
.in addition I don't think they can concoct a story that will wash as well as the Crimea narrative has gone...I think they realize the world probably would react badly to further incursions....
Many of the world's citizens believed what Putin said about Crimea. Why wouldn't they believe him again when he says there are Russians in east Ukraine being discriminated against and hold an election that votes to join Russia? The western governments may react harsher this time by doubling the sanctions. If Putin wants more land, this is probably the best opportunity he'll ever get with Russian troops on the border, Ukraine being weak after it's revolution and an American president who hesitates when it comes to using military force to stop him. It's now or never.
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Russian soldier kills an unarmed Ukrainian Naval Officer in Crimea..according to the Ukraine Defence Ministry.
Fathertime...do you think that Ukrainian Naval Officer's wife and children consider it a win/win situation ?
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Russian soldier kills an unarmed Ukrainian Naval Officer in Crimea..according to the Ukraine Defence Ministry.
Fathertime...do you think that Ukrainian Naval Officer's wife and children consider it a win/win situation ?
That is truly a stupid question..it really is. Why would an officer's family think they just 'won' because he was killed?
People are going to be killed pretty much however this plays out...imo
If loss of life is kept down that is the best one can hope for. Nobody said this was going to be 100% blood-free..not realistic.
Fathertime!
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I still don't see a big invasion by Russia in the cards....they took what they really want already...they don't seem to be lacking coal so why would they bother with the hassle and turmoil of these cities?...in addition I don't think they can concoct a story that will wash as well as the Crimea narrative has gone...I think they realize the world probably would react badly to further incursions....
Like Jone, I hope you are correct, but from what I understand it would make strategic and economic sense for him to assimilate the Eastern and Southern cities if he is able to do so quickly without major repercussions. Aren't those cities the areas with greatest amount of wealth and production in Ukraine? Quickly slip in and take all the factories in the Northeast that produce the engines for your military, the shipyards in Niko, the port cities of Odessa and Illichivsk and control the coastline over to Pridnestrovie.
If I were Putin I would have already made the move while the West twiddles their thumbs. Who is going to challenge him on this?
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If anything (I hope) both sides have learned over the last decades that armed conflict is simply too costly, destructive and only foments discord among those affected, usually prolonging final resolution. - in other words zip.
BC, I hope your hope is correct, but I don't have much hope.
My wife didn't sleep last night at all. All she did was sob in bed. This is after she declared that "the war has started." I had to go and look at the news to see what was happening. She is convinced that after the Belgorod residents (some were asking where was city hall after they started protesting in front of a theater) from the eastern cities started the demonstrations that Putler will send in the "friendlies" and the "greens" to protect the Belgorod citizens. There will be a lot of blood, she said.
This is a woman that for years would identify herself as Russian because they were one people. Now, it is not pleasant what she says of Russians.
Really sad.
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I still don't see a big invasion by Russia in the cards....they took what they really want already...they don't seem to be lacking coal so why would they bother with the hassle and turmoil of these cities?...in addition I don't think they can concoct a story that will wash as well as the Crimea narrative has gone...I think they realize the world probably would react badly to further incursions....
Fathertime!
Either you are blind or have a serious passive-aggressive nature.
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The war has already started. It will be America/EU stationing military and missile bases on Russia's border.
This is WRWD. (What Reagan would do.) However, this is not what Obama is doing.
The interesting fact is that the majority of isolationists here in the US hate Obama. Ironic.
It will be is Vladimir Putin persuading other nations to dump the dollar as the reserve currency and start direct exchanges using their own currency. Already a deal has been worked out between Iran and Russia as well as with India. Ordinary Americans are going to get hurt real bad when prices rise dramatically on foreign produced goods.
Putler can try as much as he can. He'll never succeed. Wall Street is too damn stong. Read my signature.
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BTW, anyone seen LT lately? Is he a lone wolf after Putler?
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Either you are blind or have a serious passive-aggressive nature.
You seem to think the position I've taken as it pertains to further Russian aggression is 'passive-aggressive'....or maybe I'm blind.... Why do you think this? I don't see a compelling reason for Russia to move into those Eastern cities...that doesn't mean that they won't...that just means I don't think they will. The negatives are too great. From what I'm gathering, you must feel the Russians are going to move into the cities...why do you think this?
I can see how someone would argue that I'm blind, but how is taking that position 'passive-aggressive'? If me taking that position is 'passive-aggressive' then isn't the position you are taking also 'passive-aggressive'?
Thanks,
Fathertime!
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You seem to think the position I've taken as it pertains to further Russian aggression is 'passive-aggressive'...
Nope, just how you seem to relish getting other people's goats. Sometimes when you are blatant about it, you seem to make an about face and pretend to agree, just to keep things going.
.or maybe I'm blind.... Why do you think this?
I was just being nice. :rolleyes:
I don't see a compelling reason for Russia to move into those Eastern cities...that doesn't mean that they won't...that just means I don't think they will. The negatives are too great. From what I'm gathering, you must feel the Russians are going to move into the cities...why do you think this?
I believe you are lying. Even Russian citizens believe Putler is going to march into eastern Ukraine. After all, eastern Ukraine is a mistake. Right, Belvis?
I can see how someone would argue that I'm blind, but how is taking that position 'passive-aggressive'? If me taking that position is 'passive-aggressive' then isn't the position you are taking also 'passive-aggressive'?
Thanks,
Fathertime!
Remember I have three children and they went through their stages recently. So it is easy for me to pick up on little bits here and there.
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Nope, just how you seem to relish getting other people's goats. Sometimes when you are blatant about it, you seem to make an about face and pretend to agree, just to keep things going.
I was just being nice. :rolleyes:
I believe you are lying. Even Russian citizens believe Putler is going to march into eastern Ukraine. After all, eastern Ukraine is a mistake. Right, Belvis?
Remember I have three children and they went through their stages recently. So it is easy for me to pick up on little bits here and there.
Well Muzh, maybe you should just forget that the view is coming from me then, and argue the points. I won't 'pretend' to agree with you, unless I actually do.
Nowhere in what you have just written did you state your own position....you did state what you must feel is the 'Russian position' from fellow Russians.
I did not believe the hype that Russia is moving into Eastern Ukraine a few weeks ago, nor do I now...You apparently do... So in a few weeks or months should I come back and say you were a hysterical alarmist, or some other phrase as you are doing now? I'd rather just discuss the points and reasons. You have not stated why you feel Putin is going to move into E. Ukraine or farther....I guess you don't want to look like a fool when it doesn't happen, I get you, I had an uncle your age once so it is easy to pick up on little bits and pieces. See I was being nice too. :rolleyes:
Fathertime!
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Well Muzh, maybe you should just forget that the view is coming from me then, and argue the points. I won't 'pretend' to agree with you, unless I actually do.
Nowhere in what you have just written did you state your own position....you did state what you must feel is the 'Russian position' from fellow Russians.
I did not believe the hype that Russia is moving into Eastern Ukraine a few weeks ago, nor do I now...You apparently do... So in a few weeks or months should I come back and say you were a hysterical alarmist, or some other phrase as you are doing now? I'd rather just discuss the points and reasons. You have not stated why you feel Putin is going to move into E. Ukraine or farther....I guess you don't want to look like a fool when it doesn't happen, I get you, I had an uncle your age once so it is easy to pick up on little bits and pieces. See I was being nice too. :rolleyes:
Fathertime!
You are such a peach.
At the very begininig I was telling what's-her-name in Krim that Putler was not stoopid, therefore he would not invade Crimea. No reason for getting wet on that. That was just illogical for him to do so. I was CONVINCED no additional Russian troops would come into Crimea. You know how that turned out.
Well, Putler is just recycling history. As illogical it is for him to do so, he is intent on recycling history.
Now, here is you. Are you really trying to play the part of isolationist? Somehow, you don't fit the mold. So, what's your story?
And Jone, I never saw him claim he was a physician. And if he did I would say Bullshevik to that.
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You are such a peach.
At the very begininig I was telling what's-her-name in Krim that Putler was not stoopid, therefore he would not invade Crimea. No reason for getting wet on that. That was just illogical for him to do so. I was CONVINCED no additional Russian troops would come into Crimea. You know how that turned out.
Well, Putler is just recycling history. As illogical it is for him to do so, he is intent on recycling history.
Now, here is you. Are you really trying to play the part of isolationist? Somehow, you don't fit the mold. So, what's your story?
So you are using history for your predictions going forward....I am not....the world is too different to think that what happened in the past is going to parallel this recent event...at least that is my opinion.....
Why is it 'playing the role' of the isolationist? Are you 'playing the role' of being a liberal? I just rather take you at your word that you are a liberal, and go from there....
gotta roll....see you this evening.
Fathertime!
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So you are using history for your predictions going forward....I am not....the world is too different to think that what happened in the past is going to parallel this recent event...at least that is my opinion.....
I'm not making predictions. It is obvious you never took History of Western Civilization in college. :rolleyes:
The only difference today is the speed of the killing. Nothing else has changed. I'm really surprised I have to tell you this since you seem "well-informed."
Why is it 'playing the role' of the isolationist? Are you 'playing the role' of being a liberal? I just rather take you at your word that you are a liberal, and go from there....
gotta roll....see you this evening.
Fathertime!
I'm not playing any role. I AM a liberal. Hope that helps. CYA tomorrow. I don't do RWD at night.
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There is a great difference between the 200 armed men who have taken over the government building in Donetsk and those that showed up in Kyiv to protest government corruption in Maidan.
1. These men are heavily armed with the sole purpose of creating chaos in the region.
2. They have called for immediate armed incursion by the Russians.
3. They appear to be supplied with military armaments that could only have come from Russia.
Quite honestly, folks, this is the move everyone was anticipating. Now, more than ever, I believe that Russia will invade.
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People who seized Donetsk regional administration armed with machine guns and grenade launchers (http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/news/people_who_seized_donetsk_regional_administration_armed_with_machine_guns_and_grenade_launchers_319797)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/putin_krim_zpsdde870a3.jpg)
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Fathertime,
No,it isn't my question that's stupid..it's your repetitive claim that what has happened in Crimea is a win/win situation that is stupid.
Maybe now the killing has started,you will stop insulting the families of the bereaved with your ludicrous win/win claims.
For someone who admits to fully expecting deaths to occur over what happened, your insensitivity to the situation is pretty crass IMO.
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The only thing, I believe, holding Putler back is China's abstention at the UN Security Council Meeting.
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I think the horror of what is about to unfold is particularly devastating to those people with loved ones in the region. My prayers are with all of the families on both sides of the border, but particularly with the Ukrainians who cannot put up a defense without outside assistance.
I think the moves yesterday were planned out for two months and that this is the precursor to invasion.
I have never been to Donetsk, but I have spent a good amount of time in Eastern Ukraine and Kharkiv. I cannot imagine the boots of Russian soldiers in this city, nor of the number of Ukrainian dead as a result of Putin's land grab.
Muzh, while I would like to believe your signature line, I personally think Putin is crazy and is on the same level as Hitler.
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The interesting fact is that the majority of isolationists here in the US hate Obama. Ironic.
Talking about me? No offense, yet some clarification is necessary.
Yes, I consider Obama an empty suit. I am not an isolationist, yet feel this is Europe's lead with our support.
One key reason is because this issue is in Europe's backyard, the future trade will be mostly with EU-UA, and the largest risk is supply of gas to EU. Thus, Europe has the most to gain and lose, and Europe knows the participants better than we do.
Another part of my reasoning is because Obama has weakened our international stature. So we are not operating from a position of strength.
Finally, and this is my major reason: I believe Obama and his staff would screw up big in a chess match with Putin.
Thus, let Europe take the lead. Nevertheless, there is much we can in the form of support. Besides aid, we could reverse Obama's energy policies to become a significant source of gas for Europe and Ukraine - frack more and accelerate LNG exports. Maybe we expand our NATO presence.
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My wife didn't sleep last night at all. All she did was sob in bed.
My wife stopped reading the news. She's tired of having her nerves shaken.
Guys, don't be so hard on Fathertime. Although he's in the minority here with his views, when all the heads are counted around the world, he's probably in the majority.
Is it a coincidence a lot of things have been happening around the world the past month not related to Russia? Israel a victim to rocket attacks. Israel threating to take matters in their own hands over Iranian nukes. China pursuing more real estate and using military force to starve Filipinos on an island. N Korea shooting in S Korea's waters. Japan feeling insecure about N Korea and China and asking for America to do something so we send warships over there to ease their fears. Many people are comfortable with their lives and don't care what happens elsewhere in the world. Maybe some of these things are happening to turn our attention away from Russia at Putin's request? Maybe these things are happening because those nations and terrorists know Obama doesn't like to use force? History has shown what it takes and the ingredients for WW3 are present.
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Quite honestly, folks, this is the move everyone was anticipating. Now, more than ever, I believe that Russia will invade.
MIL said they are quite sure it will happen soon as well. There are people on the buses and trams in who are not from the city praising Russia and filling the sheeps heads with nonsense. At this point they are just waiting for the troops to roll in.
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The latest is that the fcuking pig of Akhmetov was responsible for paying and arming the Pro-Russian demonstrators in Donetsk. He wants his little kingdom. It seems that the not-so-secret meeting he had with Putler a month or so ago was to discuss the partition of Ukraine in little kingdoms and all of them reporting to Putler.
This way the goddamn pig keeps his billions, is still the richest "Ukrainian" and doesn't have to compete with the Russian oligarchs.
What a piece of shit.
To make matters worse Acting President Yulia Turchimov and the Prime Minister Arsney Timoshenko are still trying to figure out what to do. Like nothing. And the Russian Ukrainian military commanders are still playing scrabble until the "peaceful greens" cross the border (what? they are not there yet?) come to the rescue of Belogrod citizens in Eastern Ukraine.
Oh boy. The country is doomed.
It is true. At least with Yanukonvict there was a Ukraine.
BOHICA
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I think you will see something happen around the election or the day before the election. Possibly Putin will roll some tanks across the border to disrupt the election and put Ukraine in total turmoil. Just an intrusion a kilometer or so will cause total chaos and turn the election upside down.
The West already screwed up. From the very beginning they should have reacted differently. The rules of engagement were thrown out the window. This being, you always have a plan based on the very, very worst scenario you think your aggressor can take. This would have been planning strategics on the assumption Putin would take all of Crimea and rolling North taking Eastern Ukraine with support from Russian military moving from Western Russia.
NATO and the West should have reacted with a show of force in Crimea and the Eastern part of Ukraine immediately. You hesitate you lose. Putin most likely won't hesitate with the opportunity of Eastern Ukraine. The West should already be prepared but of course we have final 4 brackets to fill and gay marriage issues to deal with along with trying to convince people a passed healthcare law is good. Hell its the law. You should not have to convince anybody. They are required to have it.
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My wife didn't sleep last night at all. All she did was sob in bed. ......This is a woman that for years would identify herself as Russian because they were one people. Now, it is not pleasant what she says of Russians.
Really sad.
This latest news is troubling, yet don't you think it has Putin written all over it?
Is your wife from eastern Ukraine? Near the Russian border? As a little girl, did she speak Ukrainian or Russian with her parents?
I am asking to understand how ethnically Ukrainian is she. I assume she is Slavic and Orthodox, which would align her with Russians.
My wife grew up in western Siberia. She is half-Cossack, half-Russian, which makes her essentially Slavic, and she is very much Orthodox. She says she has always identified with Ukrainian people as brothers and sisters. She has not taken a hard position one way or the other, except she is not a Putin fan and does not want military combat.
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This latest news is troubling, yet don't you think it has Putin written all over it?
Joke of the day. LMFAO Seriously, I almost chocked on my coffee.
Are you suggesting this is a Ukrainian initiative? Really? These are thugs not academia types we are talking about. Because they have billions doesn't mean they have class or education.
Is your wife from eastern Ukraine? Near the Russian border? As a little girl, did she speak Ukrainian or Russian with her parents?
I am asking to understand how ethnically Ukrainian is she. I assume she is Slavic and Orthodox, which would align her with Russians.
She was born and raised in Xapkib and she would not set foot on a Ukrainian Orthodox church until recently. She speaks both but would pride herself that she could speak Ukrainian fluently. Her mother and sister do not speak Ukrainian. However, her nephew talks in Ukrainian exclusively unless he has to speak in Russian. He was raised in Russian language and went to the same school his mother and aunt went to which specializes in languages.
My wife grew up in western Siberia. She is half-Cossack, half-Russian, which makes her essentially Slavic, and she is very much Orthodox. She says she has always identified with Ukrainian people as brothers and sisters. She has not taken a hard position one way or the other, except she is not a Putin fan and does not want military combat.
My wife's uncle (mama's brother) lives in Omsk. He is a retired Air Force pilot and big shot. He says they are all making stuff up. Says he hasn't seen any news about any invasion and refuses to believe what his sister tells him.
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Still taking this all in.. but I can't help but think these are the actions of ACTORVISTS .. not activists .
How many are actually partaking in this rebellion and not being paid to incite rebellion?
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One of the Ukrainian government ministers said today that the typical activist is being paid $500 from slush funds provided by the Russian government. After all the accusations of American money funding Maidan, I am sure that in the head of the Russian government, they would think such actions are both legitimate and appropriate.
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At least with Yanukonvict there was a Ukraine.
(http://i.imgur.com/5Fmku37.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/5Fmku37)
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One of the Ukrainian government ministers said today that the typical activist is being paid $500 from slush funds provided by the Russian government. After all the accusations of American money funding Maidan, I am sure that in the head of the Russian government, they would think such actions are both legitimate and appropriate.
Well.. the concept albeit a bit afar from UA, that funding of democratic processes should not be limited, was recently upheld as constitutional in one western country.
Even 'activists' and their families have to eat.
No foul by today's playbook.
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I'm not making predictions. It is obvious you never took History of Western Civilization in college. :rolleyes:
The only difference today is the speed of the killing. Nothing else has changed. I'm really surprised I have to tell you this since you seem "well-informed."
Since you are the western civilization 'buff'...why were you shouting from rooftops that Russia wasn't going to take Crimea wise guy? That was the most obvious move they would make. Maybe you can blame it on your teacher or something...obviously you failed the class. So where is the rest of the invasion you are now promising us?
Fathertime!
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Well.. the concept albeit a bit afar from UA, that funding of democratic processes should not be limited, was recently upheld as constitutional in one western country.
Even 'activists' and their families have to eat.
No foul by today's playbook.
Hell, BC,
We funded an entire election in '08 based on a paid activist staff. Only then it was called ACORN.
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Fathertime,
No,it isn't my question that's stupid..it's your repetitive claim that what has happened in Crimea is a win/win situation that is stupid.
Maybe now the killing has started,you will stop insulting the families of the bereaved with your ludicrous win/win claims.
For someone who admits to fully expecting deaths to occur over what happened, your insensitivity to the situation is pretty crass IMO.
Yes Chelseaboy the original question WAS stupid. I'm sure more people will be killed too. People were being killed before the Russian invasion of Crimea, that is how these things go. Believe it or not there are far greater tragedies going on in the world.
Now back to win/win...yes I think ultimately it will be a win/win...Russia was never going to risk being shut out of that port area, that was for certain...so they got their win...Now IF/When Ukraine restores order in their country they can move in the direction they choose...a win for them...Was America's revolution bloodless when we freed ourselves from your country's clutches?
I think it is crass of you to try to stifle debate, because deaths have occurred if that is the barometer for ending discussion then very few political events like this could be talked about.
Fathertime!
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I’m curious what the end solution is going to be for Ukraine… is the final solution that there is an East Ukraine and a West Ukraine? That would be less of a win for Ukraine for sure, but is that the best way anyway? It appears a lot of the Eastern Ukrainians truly do feel close to Russia and obviously most of the Western Ukrainians detest Russia’s influence. Why force these two groups to live together if it is to mean they start killing each other? It appears to be a legitimate issue. Can/will they get along as a whole, or is a civil/proxy war going to wind up happening? What reasonable solutions are out there? I don’t see purging otherwise law-abiding citizens based on ideology as being reasonable at this point. If the USA is bringing in NGO's in Ukraine they are making the situation worse, imo.
Fathertime!
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I’m curious what the end solution is going to be for Ukraine… is the final solution that there is an East Ukraine and a West Ukraine? That would be less of a win for Ukraine for sure, but is that the best way anyway? It appears a lot of the Eastern Ukrainians truly do feel close to Russia and obviously most of the Western Ukrainians detest Russia’s influence. Why force these two groups to live together if it is to mean they start killing each other? It appears to be a legitimate issue. Can/will they get along as a whole, or is a civil/proxy war going to wind up happening? What reasonable solutions are out there? I don’t see purging otherwise law-abiding citizens based on ideology as being reasonable at this point. If the USA is bringing in NGO's in Ukraine they are making the situation worse, imo.
Fathertime!
Jeez FT, please, give that one up. There is no "win" for Ukraine. It is all "loss" and no, Ukraine is a peaceful country and dividing it East/West isn't a solution that's reasonable to Ukrainians
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Jeez FT, please, give that one up. There is no "win" for Ukraine. It is all "loss" and no, Ukraine is a peaceful country and dividing it East/West isn't a solution that's reasonable to Ukrainians
They were a peaceful country and I hope they stay that way. Looks like extremists are starting to make their presence felt.
(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/NWWqDvBbRloxcnZvCG6LGA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTY1NTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/fcd59531cefbc20d500f6a7067005906.jpg)
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Father Time,
It is very evident that you have not spent any significant amount of time in Ukraine. The entire situation that is being advocated by the Russians is artificial. One of the reasons I originally spent time in Ukraine over Russia is that the Ukrainians, in all parts of the country, were proud to be Ukrainian. If you look at the ethnic makeup over 60% of the people, even in Donetsk and Lugansk are ethnic Ukrainian. To assume that they hate the Western Ukrainians or wish to be part of Russia is un-informed.
To further elaborate my point, do you know that when Putinistas tried to take over the Mayor's office in Kharkiv, they got the wrong building and took over the Opera House? That should tell you something. Even I know where the Opera House is in Kharkiv. Perhaps they thought the Mayor was performing Turnandot by Puccinni? (If that were the case, I would have gone to the Opera House too. I love that opera.) The simple fact is that these were paid operatives, not even from Ukraine. Can you guess which big neighboring country supplied these men?
In any society, one can find a couple of social misfits and rile them up to come out and protest. Even here in the US, it can be done. Especially if someone is paying for them to be there.
Russia is trying to destabilize Ukraine. By doing so, the Kremlin feels it can carve up the country by Oblast. Clearly, your uninformed position is one that we have had to listen to repeatedly over the last couple of weeks. It would be nice if you could finally admit that carving up Ukraine is not in the best interest of the Ukrainians and that this is not a win/win. It is aggression, plain and simple.
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I’m curious what the end solution is going to be for Ukraine… is the final solution that there is an East Ukraine and a West Ukraine?...
LOL. Likely a far more believable reality than believing east Ukraine would allow itself to be governed by a ruling party they strongly voted against in 2010, Vis-a-vis for western Ukraine.
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/2010electionresult_zps55d991dc.png) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/2010electionresult_zps55d991dc.png.html)
Shell Oil have dibs on the exploratory fracking drilling for the eastern half, while Chevron nabbing the western half. All that's left to do right now is wait for a few thousands dead Ukrainian bodies. The sooner this happens, the sooner EU can tap and *buy gas from Ukraine (likely the western region, long with Romania and Poland) and shunning Russia as a lone source altogether.
A well-executed western-style capitalistic pulled planning, I say...
*of course, lest Ukraine forgets, they will owe the EU/USA/IMF billions for years before the country and its peoples *benefit* from any of their resource. If in doubt - see: Africa.
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Father Time,
It is very evident that you have not spent any significant amount of time in Ukraine. The entire situation that is being advocated by the Russians is artificial. One of the reasons I originally spent time in Ukraine over Russia is that the Ukrainians, in all parts of the country, were proud to be Ukrainian. If you look at the ethnic makeup over 60% of the people, even in Donetsk and Lugansk are ethnic Ukrainian. To assume that they hate the Western Ukrainians or wish to be part of Russia is un-informed.
1. You have misrepresented the questions I raised. Where was either of those two bolded ASSumptions made, by the questions I posed?
2. I think you have lost your objectivity and have an inflated sense of importance on the subject. You are providing an opinion, one of many.
3. When people see parliament members fist fight merely because one side is making statements the other doesn't like, you have to wonder just well these two sides are going to come together in the end. It was the Western leaning ones that began throwing punches so you can't make the claim that it was 'Russian interference' that prompted the brawl.
4. I think it is obvious that you are trying to downplay the internal divisions between Ukrainians on this issue.
5. It seems obvious Russia is going to capitalize on these divisions for their own advantage. If there were no real divisions I'd have serious doubts that Russia would have the ability to do very much.
6. I merely posed some questions and made a statement or two about the potential killing that could commence if people with diametrically opposed viewpoints are forced to live together. It appears the position you hold is that the Ukrainians are not divided. I don't agree.
7. In trying to be objective, if the Ukrainian divisions are not THAT deep, the Ukrainians should be able to live with each other and get past this issue and eventually thrive...on the other hand maybe the divisions are deepening by the day. Clearly the map GQ provided proves that there is something going on when a country is divided by region to such an extreme.
Fathertime!
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GQ,
You post a map of election results and, while understandable, does nothing other than to tell that these people voted for one political candidate over another. That election was a 'pick your poison' election. Frankly, if I had been voting in that election, I would have selected: "None of the Above".
Here is the make-up of Ukraine. Note that the difference between Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is significant. Ethnic Russians are NOT in the majority in Eastern Ukraine. Simply more people speak the Russian language there.
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/12/Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png)
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Father Time,
You continue to embarrass yourself. I want to hear again about your "Win/Win" situation. Tell us again!!!
:ROFL:
Oh, please, tell us again!!
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Nothing in the map you posted contested or refuted the underlying portrayal of the political leanings of the country, jone. The fact remains, the population in Ukraine consist of peoples easily divided by an east/west region. Whether demographically or politically.
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Father Time,
You continue to embarrass yourself. I want to hear again about your "Win/Win" situation. Tell us again!!!
:ROFL:
Oh, please, tell us again!!
Yes, yes, please tell us all about your 'love' for the Ukrainian/Russian people and all your 'important' business dealings. Sounds like you are continuously trying to bolster your 'street cred'. :rolleyes:
To this point, you have been wrong about what was going to happen...that is the important fact. Where is YOUR invasion, Mr 'student of history'?
Fathertime!
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I’m curious what the end solution is going to be for Ukraine… is the final solution that there is an East Ukraine and a West Ukraine? That would be less of a win for Ukraine for sure, but is that the best way anyway? It appears a lot of the Eastern Ukrainians truly do feel close to Russia and obviously most of the Western Ukrainians detest Russia’s influence. Why force these two groups to live together if it is to mean they start killing each other? It appears to be a legitimate issue. Can/will they get along as a whole, or is a civil/proxy war going to wind up happening? What reasonable solutions are out there? I don’t see purging otherwise law-abiding citizens based on ideology as being reasonable at this point. If the USA is bringing in NGO's in Ukraine they are making the situation worse, imo.
Fathertime!
So, you'd be very happy with a Confederate States of America and a United States of America, right?
Where would you prefer to live? You seem to me like the rebel type.
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So, you'd be very happy with a Confederate States of America and a United States of America, right?
Where would you prefer to live? You seem to me like the rebel type.
A better question would be would you mind if a country, like Russia, sent money, ammo, and other types of aid to groups intent to over throw our elected government?
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Nothing in the map you posted contested or refuted the underlying portrayal of the political leanings of the country, jone. The fact remains, the population in Ukraine consist of peoples easily divided by an east/west region. Whether demographically or politically.
Well, we could divide the United States politically and demographically. We certainly could divide up California!! It doesn't mean we should. Ukrainians don't want it. The entire situation is artificially contrived. Did you read how the Coal Miner's Union in Donbass Region stated that they had no wish to be part of Russia? Those are all Russians - and the poorest of the poor.
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And that is why you have a democratic process to follow. Short of doing that, you merely promoted chaos. Any result thereafter will be dubious at best if not catastrophic.
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A better question would be would you mind if a country, like Russia, sent money, ammo, and other types of aid to groups intent to over throw our elected government?
It seems to me Russia already provided the Belogrod Pro-Russian demonstrators with that so what's your point?
Oh wait, you mean the US sent money arms and logistics to the Maidan people? Boy, if that is the case we as a country are in trouble.
You see, The Belogrod Pro-Russians had machine guns and grenade launchers. As a matter of fact they have set plastic explosives inside the SBU building in Lughansk. Very expensive equipment.
The US could only afford slingshots and a few buck worth of petrol for molotov cocktails. Not to mention all these US-sponsored operatives head gear!!! Pots and bike helmets. Impressive improvisation. Must be an American trait. Very proud of those boys.
So, you also seem like the rebel type to me.
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It seems to me Russia already provided the Belogrod Pro-Russian demonstrators with that so what's your point?
Oh wait, you mean the US sent money arms and logistics to the Maidan people? Boy, if that is the case we as a country are in trouble.
You see, The Belogrod Pro-Russians had machine guns and grenade launchers. As a matter of fact they have set plastic explosives inside the SBU building in Lughansk. Very expensive equipment.
The US could only afford slingshots and a few buck worth of petrol for molotov cocktails. Not to mention all these US-sponsored operatives head gear!!! Pots and bike helmets. Impressive improvisation. Must be an American trait. Very proud of those boys.
The military and police would be better armed, so yes. I take it you mean the police and military of Ukraine when you yell pro Russians.
You trying to say that the "Maidan" people were only armed with sling shots and molotov coctails? Or is this another example of your situation blindness.
What does Lughansk have anything to do with the "Maidan" mob?
The problem is you guys don't want to see tha the west screwed up this country just as much as Russia. Putin called the west out by a show of force. The west spanked some sanctions and said bad boy. Putting the blame on Putin and Russia is easy even though the west should get their fair share of the blame for this cluster****.
So, you also seem like the rebel type to me.
I don't even know what that means but funny neverless.
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The military and police would be better armed, so yes. I take it you mean the police and military of Ukraine when you yell pro Russians.
You trying to say that the "Maidan" people were only armed with sling shots and molotov coctails? Or is this another example of your situation blindness.
What does Lughansk have anything to do with the "Maidan" mob?
The problem is you guys don't want to see tha the west screwed up this country just as much as Russia. Putin called the west out by a show of force. The west spanked some sanctions and said bad boy. Putting the blame on Putin and Russia is easy even though the west should get their fair share of the blame for this cluster****.
I don't even know what that means but funny neverless.
:rolleyes: is the best I can do with this nonsense.
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So, you'd be very happy with a Confederate States of America and a United States of America, right?
Where would you prefer to live? You seem to me like the rebel type.
You are stretching and resorting to name-calling again....
I'm happy in the country I live in...my marriage would not be at all acceptable in a Confederate state...as a matter of fact we would probably both be lynched...maybe the kids too.
I don't even know what that means but funny neverless.
Hey LFU, by calling you a rebel (me too), I take it as he is dismissing the arguments presented and the individual making them...he may even be implying something about racism. Muzh, would prefer to resort to 'Label Time', when challenged on specifics. It is an easy out for him.
Fathertime!
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Hey LFU, by calling you a rebel (me too), I take it as he is dismissing the arguments presented and the individual making them...he may even be implying something about racism. Muzh, would prefer to resort to 'Label Time', when challenged on specifics. It is an easy out for him.
Fathertime!
Yeah, it's easier to blame the evil empire (which one depends on whom is reading). If you don't agree you're are a rebel I guess. I prefer being a rebel than sheep blindly following what any country wants you to believe.
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You are stretching and resorting to name-calling again....
I'm happy in the country I live in...my marriage would not be at all acceptable in a Confederate state...as a matter of fact we would probably both be lynched...maybe the kids too.
Hey LFU, by calling you a rebel (me too), I take it as he is dismissing the arguments presented and the individual making them...he may even be implying something about racism. Muzh, would prefer to resort to 'Label Time', when challenged on specifics. It is an easy out for him.
Fathertime!
Oh boy, NOW I get it. Dude, that's one big chip on your shoulder.
Understood.
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Yeah, it's easier to blame the evil empire (which one depends on whom is reading). If you don't agree you're are a rebel I guess. I prefer being a rebel than sheep blindly following what any country wants you to believe.
You on the other hand, you have no excuse. You're just plain ugly. ;)
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You on the other hand, you have no excuse. You're just plain ugly. ;)
:blowkiss:
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Oh boy, NOW I get it. Dude, that's one big chip on your shoulder.
Understood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoAmQGzcLkc
Fathertime!
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:blowkiss:
Wait, wait. While you're at it....
:mooning:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoAmQGzcLkc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoAmQGzcLkc)
Fathertime!
Is it safe to watch?
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Wait, wait. While you're at it....
:mooning:
Nah man, I don't want anyone to kiss my buttocks. I just like getting under your skin. That is thanks in itself. ;D
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Nah man, I don't want anyone to kiss my buttocks. I just like getting under your skin. That is thanks in itself. ;D
Aww, that was so lame.
C'mon, give it another try. ;)
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Is it safe to watch?
I dare you...go ahead....I dare you.
Fathertime!
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FT ,
russias movements of troops and there buildup along the entire east border with ukraine is going to be one of two things,
it could be the defensive posturing , but in reality , if that was so it is far more likely to be more concentrated in the south east, closer to crimea,
no other civilised country is going to invade russia in the north east, kharkiv has masses of rusky troops just 50 km away , over the border in belgorod , this isnt defence it is more likely waiting in the wings for the right trip /spark to move across into ukraine to ''SAVE '' the ethnc russians there , who by and large probably dont want it
with so much corruption abound within regional govs, it is difficult to make a proper reading of which way this will go , but just one major incident within an s/east oblast will very probably set the russian army westwards,
i have no doubt putin is mercilessly calculating , he has no better time than now or the very near future to make this move , if he chooses to ,
if he waits, he might lose the momentum/moment
ukraine will hold elctions and new gov will have unquestioned legitimacy, , now he can posture the gov doesnt , regardless of fact below
http://khpg.org.ua/en/index.php?id=1395358623
ukraine will if it recovers economicaly , boost its defences , have no doubt about that , it may join NATO ,
now it is vulnerable , it has no gaurantee of military help with troops etc from any third party, now or the very near future is putins moment when ukraine is at its most vulnerable , and parts of moldova, right across to take it all back as far as he can push ,
and dont forget putin still has yanukovich , as his puppet to restore ''legitimalty if he wishes to use him, remember yano wrote to the duma asking for their help to retake his position /country , ? yanu spent time after he left kiev in crimea, what hand did he have in that play ?? how affiliated is he with the new prime minister aksanov [goblin ] in crimea, ??
did they meet and plan in crimea ?? both have east mafia bases /connections ?
the EU/US have indicated their lack of will to get deeply involved and are prepared to sacrifice ukraine to save their economys, putin know this only too well
,
he has waited to get total control of crimea, all ukraine bases shut down ,forces removed , weapons in his control , no small resistance internally within crimea to cause any issues ,
all the chess pieces are in place to make the move, now /soon imho
question is will putin sieze his oppurtunity ? will he use yanukovich to front it when he does and where will it start ?
SX
fatthertime , my posts from march 24th ,
putin is moving his chess pieces nicely dont you think to achieve his aim of taking/ controling ukraine ?
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fatthertime , my posts from march ,
putin is moving his chess pieces nicely dont you think to achieve his aim of taking/ controling ukraine ?
Hey SX,
I think Russia is doing what they can to gain from the situation. They already secured Crimea and I think that was the main objective...if the divisions within Ukraine prove to be deep enough there could be further splintering although I'd say no other parts will be annexed by Russia. What do you think?
I'm still holding to the position that the troops are not an invasion force (like many insisted weeks ago), but obviously they are there for a reason or two.
Thanks,
Fathertime!
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I'm still holding to the position that the troops are not an invasion force (like many insisted weeks ago), but obviously they are there for a reason or two.
Thanks,
Fathertime!
You took a risk when you said Putin will not invade yet another part of Ukraine. Take a lesson from Andrewfi: don't make a prediction that you cannot weasel out from when it turns out to be incorrect.
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[quote ] think Russia is doing what they can to gain from the situation. [/quote]
imho they are actively fuelling/destabilising the situation , intent on total control of ukraine in any way they can ,
They already secured Crimea and I think that was the main objective
nah , crimea with the s/east of ukraine minimal across to moldova is his aim , always has been imo
if the divisions within Ukraine prove to be deep enough there could be further splintering although I'd say no other parts will be annexed by Russia. What do you think?
as he is helping to splinter with his orchestrated campaign of propoganda /fear, destabilisation , military threat and posturing , economical suffocation /obstruction he has a very good chance of breaking ukraine up
however he will win whichever way it goes imo ,
if he cant gain total control with his militia,[ just waiting for some bloodshed now to occur , any conflict will have him move troops across the border within 40 mins of these cities]
then he still gets to sit in on the political discussion on how to resolve /change ukraine , even when he is the main player in causing the issues ,
how can it be he is getting his head in the talk fest as a peace negotiater when he has been the main antagonist ??
thus he will push his agenda , ukraine will be broken by him , one way or another , sooner or later
SX
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You took a risk when you said Putin will not invade yet another part of Ukraine. Take a lesson from Andrewfi: don't make a prediction that you cannot weasel out from when it turns out to be incorrect.
Ha! I don't know andrewifi....but I have no intention of weaseling out of the prediction if it were to wind up being wrong. I'm reasonably sure it won't be though...on the other side of the aisle I'm enjoying reading the partial weasel maneuvers or disappearance of those that were certain of a large invasion force. A few are coming to the realization that they were probably incorrect. It isn't like they can claim Obama's tough sanctions and threats deterred a military invasion...but it is all cool, I'd only give somebody a hard time if they were trying to give me a hard time first...I never claimed to be an expert (like some constantly imply), but some moves seem obvious at least from my perspective...and others seem like a catastrophe in the making if they were to occur.
Fathertime!
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Hey SX,
I think Russia is doing what they can to gain from the situation. They already secured Crimea and I think that was the main objective...if the divisions within Ukraine prove to be deep enough there could be further splintering although I'd say no other parts will be annexed by Russia. What do you think?
I'm still holding to the position that the troops are not an invasion force (like many insisted weeks ago), but obviously they are there for a reason or two.
Thanks,
Fathertime!
First :rolleyes:
Then :ROFL:
You CANNOT be that clueless.
Do you think that 40,000 troops and materiel appear out of nowhere and maintains by itself? And for what? To say: Look at me. I'm so pretty? Maybe in your world when you ask this all the time.
okay, let's try and play your game.
Seriously, what is the reason or two that Putler has the troops amassed on Ukraine's eastern flank? Use sound judgement when answering the question.
Not expecting a real answer.
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First :rolleyes:
Then :ROFL:
You CANNOT be that clueless.
Do you think that 40,000 troops and materiel appear out of nowhere and maintains by itself? And for what? To say: Look at me. I'm so pretty? Maybe in your world when you ask this all the time.
okay, let's try and play your game.
Seriously, what is the reason or two that Putler has the troops amassed on Ukraine's eastern flank? Use sound judgement when answering the question.
Not expecting a real answer.
Well Sunshine we can TRY to see if it is possible to exchange viewpoints without being insulting...
Why does Russia have 40K troops sitting near the border? Reasonable question.
1st...I don't believe it is for an invasion, that is NOT going to happen. IMO
2nd...the troops do provide a credible threat of invasion, intimidation...
3rd...if the goal is to influence what is going on in Ukraine, they are serving a purpose for Russia....it shows that Russia is serious...No other nation's forces have been brought in, and I believe the reason is those Russian troops parked there are a huge deterrent.
4th...Was there an obvious buildup for weeks/months before Russia took over Crimea? I don't recall, but I think not. Russia would not have waited if this was an invasion force, it would have been done already.
There you go...I produced a response without any BS...If you can do the same we will have a discussion...I will mirror your response.
Fathertime!
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Well Sunshine we can TRY to see if it is possible to exchange viewpoints without being insulting...
Why does Russia have 40K troops sitting near the border? Reasonable question.
Doubt it loverboy.
However, hot from the press:
Russia’s clear and unmistakable involvement in destabilizing and engaging in separatist activities in the east of Ukraine is more than deeply disturbing. No one should be fooled, and believe me, no one is fooled by what could potentially be a contrived pretext for military intervention just as we saw in Crimea. It is clear that Russian special forces and agents have been the catalyst behind the chaos of the last 24 hours. Some have even been arrested and exposed. And equally as clear must be the reality that the United States and our allies will not hesitate to use 21st-century tools to hold Russia accountable for 19th-century behavior. We have stated again and again that our preference – and the preference of our friends and allies – is de-escalation and a diplomatic solution. But Russia should not for a single solitary second mistake the expression of that preference as an unwillingness to do what is necessary to stop any violation of the international order.
SoS (http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2014/04/224523.htm)
1st...I don't believe it is for an invasion, that is NOT going to happen. IMO
2nd...the troops do provide a credible threat of invasion, intimidation...
3rd...if the goal is to influence what is going on in Ukraine, they are serving a purpose for Russia....it shows that Russia is serious...No other nation's forces have been brought in, and I believe the reason is those Russian troops parked there are a huge deterrent.
4th...Was there an obvious buildup for weeks/months before Russia took over Crimea? I don't recall, but I think not. Russia would not have waited if this was an invasion force, it would have been done already.
1) Wrong
2) DUH!
3) Wrong
4) Wrong
I have no idea where you get your info. RT maybe? Anyway, you may want to argue with the Secretary of State and tell him he is worrying unnecessarily. Chill out babe.
There you go...I produced a response without any BS...If you can do the same we will have a discussion...I will mirror your response.
If you think you did me a favor, think again.
Now it is my turn to say it. Just because you do not like the way I say things I have to STFU or change to please you.
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Doubt it loverboy.
However, hot from the press:
SoS (http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2014/04/224523.htm)
1) Wrong
2) DUH!
3) Wrong
4) Wrong
I have no idea where you get your info. RT maybe? Anyway, you may want to argue with the Secretary of State and tell him he is worrying unnecessarily. Chill out babe.
If you think you did me a favor, think again.
Now it is my turn to say it. Just because you do not like the way I say things I have to STFU or change to please you.
By all means speak your piece…as was mentioned, the tenor will be mirrored so whatever suits your fancy I can live with just fine.
The testimony John Kerry gave did not address the specific question you asked about the buildup of Russian troops. To this point, your reply was more like a game show response, nothing substantive and nothing original from you. The facts on the ground remain, the troops are not moving despite what many said was going to happen weeks ago…in addition no other country has dared intervene too vigorously with that threat stationed there... I feel the point I've been making is being borne out on the ground...
Fathertime!
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By all means speak your piece…as was mentioned, the tenor will be mirrored so whatever suits your fancy I can live with just fine.
Just a simple question.
You are married to some Colombiana and you have no desire to go to the former Soyuz looking for a babe.
Now, what was your purpose of coming here to start discussions that are very dear to those who have family in the former Soyuz?
Is it that you are a hired gun or are you a self-appointed marshal of the truth? Do you go cruising forums to rectify (your perceived) wrongs?
Is this you?
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/havegun_zpsa0146790.jpg)
Just curious.
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Just a simple question.
You are married to some Colombiana and you have no desire to go to the former Soyuz looking for a babe.
Now, what was your purpose of coming here to start discussions that are very dear to those who have family in the former Soyuz?
Is it that you are a hired gun or are you a self-appointed marshal of the truth? Do you go cruising forums to rectify (your perceived) wrongs?
Is this you?
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/havegun_zpsa0146790.jpg)
Just curious.
I’m not going to satisfy your curiosity at this time, because it is unimportant to me. It would appear you are avoiding discussing the topic of the Russian troops which YOU brought up today. I’m not important (personally), the viewpoint is what is at issue. The facts on the ground are not supporting your viewpoint, at this time, imo. [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
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As the Russian mouthpieces continue to make their way into areas of the country that seem to be up for grabs, the pushback is beginning to take form. A new national battlecry is forming in the throats of Ukrainians that do not want to be part of Russia. In the background of the following tape, you can hear them chanting "Chemodan (Suitcase) - Vokzal ('train' Station) - Russiya (Russia)". This location for this tape is Mykolaiv, about eight blocks from where I lived this summer. The Party of Regions candidate for President was so frustrated that he told them all that the 'New Order' was coming and that they would all be ashamed for having behaved like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vFxZyvBy1u0
As a following thought: Putinistas attacked a government building three nights ago and were repelled by Ukrainian loyalists. The Presidential candidate was attempting to see those injured at the hospital that were on his side of the fray.
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The facts on the ground are not supporting your viewpoint, at this time, imo.
FT
fact is the facts on the ground actually support the theory of an invasion force poised at the ready ,
as it has been pointed out time and again , putin is trying to make the spark to legally legitimise his ordering them across the border,
to date he hasnt had the same success as in crimea , purely because of the differign local factors that are fluctuating on the ground in the s/eastern cities and the ukraines gov /peoples understanding /resolve of what he is trying to orchestrate
so far under extreme circumstances the new gov is making a resonable fist of keeping the spark putin would like to a min, no major violent confrontations , no bloodshed of significance,
like muzh , we have close family in this , and it is very emotional to watch what is happening
putins aim is to light the spark any way he can , ukraines aim is to keep the whole situation dampened down , to stop his spark from igniting and becoming a civil war bushfire ,
SX
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FT
fact is the facts on the ground actually support the theory of an invasion force poised at the ready ,
as it has been pointed out time and again , putin is trying to make the spark to legally legitimise his ordering them across the border,
to date he hasnt had the same success as in crimea , purely because of the differign local factors that are fluctuating on the ground in the s/eastern cities and the ukraines gov /peoples understanding /resolve of what he is trying to orchestrate
so far under extreme circumstances the new gov is making a resonable fist of keeping the spark putin would like to a min, no major violent confrontations , no bloodshed of significance,
putins aim is to light the spark any way he can , ukraines aim is to keep the whole situation dampened down , to stop his spark from igniting and becoming a civil war bushfire ,
SX
Hey SX...I don't see it that way...we will find out very soon though because when the Ukrainian authorities retake those buildings, it is probably going to get ugly and I'd say there will be some dead Russian supporters bodies on the ground when it is over.... I don't think that will prompt movement from the soldiers though. One thing that I think would prompt movement is if foreign forces get involved, but I don't foresee that happening.
Fathertime!
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we will find out very soon though because when the Ukrainian authorities retake those buildings, it is probably going to get ugly and I'd say there will be some dead Russian supporters bodies on the ground
I think Putin expects that because he creates the scenarios for that to happen. Ukrainian authorities must take back the government buildings to prepare for elections and create a safe environment for voters and UN monitors.
If Pro Russians were the majority in Ukraine, all Putin has to do is step back and let Ukraine elect another pro Russian president. Pro Russian citizens were never the majority in Ukraine. With UN monitors on their way to make sure the election is fair, it's annex time for Putin. If he doesn't try to annex before the election, he's still holding Yanukovych as a wild card. Notices Yanukovych popping up once every week or two so we don't forget about him?
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With UN monitors on their way to make sure the election is fair, it's annex time for Putin. If he doesn't try to annex before the election, he's still holding Yanukovych as a wild card. Notices Yanukovych popping up once every week or two so we don't forget about him?
yes , iv thought the same billy, yanu i being coveted in russia , not because putin likes him , but he still might be able to use him
putins window is closing fast , so if he moves his troops it will be soon ,
first though he HAS GOT TO LIGHT THE SPARK enought to justify it , luckily so far , he has been unable to
lets hope it stays that way
SX
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I think Putin expects that because he creates the scenarios for that to happen. Ukrainian authorities must take back the government buildings to prepare for elections and create a safe environment for voters and UN monitors.
Hey Billyb,
that is an interesting thought...if what you are saying is true about Putin creating the situation that is about to erupt soon in those buildings it would then stand to reason that the troops parked nearby would then jump the border and get involved. Although a lot of things indicate that would happen, i don't think so...I'm sure there is some strategy to exploit coming from Russia but I don't think an invasion is happening regardless of what it looks like. we shall soon see.
If Pro Russians were the majority in Ukraine, all Putin has to do is step back and let Ukraine elect another pro Russian president. Pro Russian citizens were never the majority in Ukraine. With UN monitors on their way to make sure the election is fair, it's annex time for Putin. If he doesn't try to annex before the election, he's still holding Yanukovych as a wild card. Notices Yanukovych popping up once every week or two so we don't forget about him?
I don't think there is enough 'pro Russians' in greater Ukraine to elect a Russian-leaning leader. I'd say Putin is willing to accept that he took Crimea and if the rest of Ukraine goes bye-bye he will live with it...if there is no e-ukraine/w-ukraine division. I think a lot of people think he can't accept that, but I think he can.
Fathertime!
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http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/how-to-stalk-eastern-separatists-online-342428.html
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if what you are saying is true about Putin creating the situation that is about to erupt soon in those buildings it would then stand to reason that the troops parked nearby would then jump the border and get involved.
Russian troops may not need to get involved in east Ukraine if the protestors screw up the soon to be Ukrainian election and vote themselves over to Russia. Russia has and continues to state it has no intentions of invading Ukraine but reserves the right to protect Russian citizens. If it gets too bloody, they will send over the troops. Unlike Obama who says there will be serious costs and doesn't keep his word, Putin will keep his word.
After Yanukovych was thrown out of power, east Ukrainians didn't take to the streets then as they are now. Russia sent agents into Ukraine to motivate them to protest. With 40,000+ Russian troops nearby that got their backs, a protestor may feel empowered much more now than after the earlier revolution.
Russia's foreign policy consists of keeping NATO as far away as possible. It's no secret they want all Ukraine and then some. I'm sure the West will give them east Ukraine with little punishment. Putin won't be able to get west Ukrainians to riot. He'll have to use force there or more likely bring back Yanukovych as the legitimate president to rule the land again after east Ukraine is annexed. When Russian troops move into east Ukraine, Kiev will be next door. Ukrainians have little say in their future and how their country is carved up.
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http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/how-to-stalk-eastern-separatists-online-342428.html
Very interesting! I wonder how FT will try and spin this one. ;D
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Very interesting! I wonder how FT will try and spin this one. ;D
Calmissile, why would I try to ‘spin’ or dispute anything he has posted? I don’t disagree with every aspect of what is being said, but I do question some items that don’t make sense to me. You don’t need to accept these points obviously:
My main points thus far are:
1. The US shouldn’t be getting too involved in this struggle.
2. The Russian troops massed on the border are not going to attack and were placed there for a different reason.
3. If/when the dust finally settles this will be a win-win.
I still see no reason to move away from any of these points at this juncture.
Fathertime!
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My main points thus far are:
1. The US shouldn’t be getting too involved in this struggle.
if that is the case then the US should not be asking sovereign countrys to give up nuclear weapons for their defence, & signing memorandums to protect them etc etc
shameless moral squirming going on by anyone who trys to pretend what was understood /agreed to when this budapest was signed imho
My main points thus far are:
2. The Russian troops massed on the border are not going to attack and were placed there for a different reason.
ok what reason ??
no one is going to attack russia ?? the EU/US /NATO have stated that emphatically ,
so who would ??ukraine ?? nah , not ever,
so they are not even acting as a deterent as all of the above said they would not use forces
russia put them there, as a clear option for use if the right situation arose to take advantage of having them on standby , plain as day that is putins no 1 option on having them there , his second option is to cause destabilisation /intimidation with them , its working !! both on ukraine and on the US/EU/NATO
My main points thus far are:
3. If/when the dust finally settles this will be a win-win.
I still see no reason to move away from any of these points at this juncture.
FT how in the name of christ do you see this as a win win ??
:deadhorse: who is wining here ?/
crimea, nah dont think so , give them time and it will become clear they are not , who else
ukraine ?? yep the price hike on gas is awinner for the average person , having protesters on all your citys squares with ethnic tension between citizens who lived together peacefully only a few months ago , thats a winner ??
having your big brother country help to suffocate you with all his strength , as well as destabilising your country he wishes to use propoganda etc to choke you into fearfull submission, :cluebat:
where is the WIN ?? only for putin at present
you have lost me in your logic,
can you explain your scenario just a bit more so we can see where your coming from ??
SX
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you have lost me in your logic,
can you explain your scenario just a bit more so we can see where your coming from ??
SX
Hey SX,
I don’t think that Russia would put those babies out there in a situation where they really can’t win…imo it would be a blunder to invade parts of Ukraine…I believe something will be worked out before it gets to that point…I believe those troops are a piece of the negotiation.
US involvement….yeah it is being shown that countries should look out for their own defense. If it comes down to nuclear armed countries in a confrontation over a small patch of land where things are a bit murky, nobody is going to risk going to conventional war over it…I can completely understand why nations are trying like hell to get a nuclear weapon…had Ukraine kept a few this probably would have been different…the rest of the world is learning a lesson if they didn't already know it.
Win-win….i don’t think the people will win….they hardly ever do….but yeah in the end I think Russia will have a win…and what remains of Ukraine will have a win…russia has crimea (a win)...Ukraine will move towards west which is apparently what they would like to do.
These opinions are unpopular here, but I hope that explains some of where I was coming from. If what I say is a bunch of bull it won't be long before the facts on the ground prove me wrong...but I don't think that will be the case.
Fathertime!
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I’m not going to satisfy your curiosity at this time, because it is unimportant to me. It would appear you are avoiding discussing the topic of the Russian troops which YOU brought up today. I’m not important (personally), the viewpoint is what is at issue. The facts on the ground are not supporting your viewpoint, at this time, imo. [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
So that's you in the picture; a self-appointed marshall of the truth, eh?
How self-important.
When you have a dog in the fight, then by all means try to sound intelligent.
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2. The Russian troops massed on the border are not going to attack and were placed there for a different reason.
I would agree if it was only infantry, artillery, or tanks but the satellite images are showing air divisions fully prepared for drop in over the lines. They have an entire airfield of supplies in one training base just over the border from Kharkiv. Whether or not he decides to pull the trigger we have to wait and see, but they are not there for different reasons.
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Hey SX...I don't see it that way...
Fathertime!
Of course you don't se3e it this way. You are in the wrong hemisphere. The people you normally deal with from your wife's side speak Spanish. They also behave differently and look differently. Not to mention they are more submissive.
That is until you betray them.
Boy, I can tell you one or two things about the people you deal with. But this is a RUSSIAN UKRAINIAN forum.
The latino forum is somewhere else.
I hope wifey doesn't think you are looking elsewhere. That would break her heart.
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When you have a dog in the fight, then by all means try to sound intelligent.
Coming from the guy who jumped up and down that Russia wasn’t going to invade Crimea?...the most obvious move. :rolleyes:
I would agree if it was only infantry, artillery, or tanks but the satellite images are showing air divisions fully prepared for drop in over the lines. They have an entire airfield of supplies in one training base just over the border from Kharkiv. Whether or not he decides to pull the trigger we have to wait and see, but they are not there for different reasons.
[/size]
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
Well Alex, I would say that Russia knows they need to have the ability to invade (to the satellites too) so yeah it has to look credible in all respects. …I don’t believe they are jumping the trench to invade. Of course if something drastic happens, then they do need to have the ability to invade…meanwhile they are a pawn…imo.
Fathertime!
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Putin is getting nervous.
Putin warns Europe of gas shortages over Ukraine debts (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26975204)
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if that is the case then the US should not be asking sovereign countrys to give up nuclear weapons for their defence, & signing memorandums to protect them etc etc
shameless moral squirming going on by anyone who trys to pretend what was understood /agreed to when this budapest was signed imho
Says a lot about the original poster, no?
ok what reason ??
no one is going to attack russia ?? the EU/US /NATO have stated that emphatically ,
so who would ??ukraine ?? nah , not ever,
so they are not even acting as a deterent as all of the above said they would not use forces
russia put them there, as a clear option for use if the right situation arose to take advantage of having them on standby , plain as day that is putins no 1 option on having them there , his second option is to cause destabilisation /intimidation with them , its working !! both on ukraine and on the US/EU/NATO
Many have tried to explain our paladin that strategy does not make any sense. However, he seems to be more knowledgeable than intelligence analysts so what do we know? Right? He must have a direct line to Putin's dacha.
FT how in the name of christ do you see this as a win win ??
:deadhorse: who is wining here ?/
crimea, nah dont think so , give them time and it will become clear they are not , who else
ukraine ?? yep the price hike on gas is awinner for the average person , having protesters on all your citys squares with ethnic tension between citizens who lived together peacefully only a few months ago , thats a winner ??
having your big brother country help to suffocate you with all his strength , as well as destabilising your country he wishes to use propoganda etc to choke you into fearfull submission, :cluebat:
where is the WIN ?? only for putin at present
you have lost me in your logic,
can you explain your scenario just a bit more so we can see where your coming from ??
SX
Again, have you ever heard the expression "Getting your goat?" Except that there are a number of people on this RUSSIAN/UKRAINIAN forum that would take it personally. But that would not deter our paladin of the truth to keep rubbing it in for his own amusement.
Makes you wonder.
Have I mentioned passive-aggressive behavior?
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I've got to chuckle at poor muzh at this point he is even bringing my wife into a political discussion. To this point his 'wise' predictions have fallen on their face. So where is the big invasion he promises? If Russia was going to invade it would have already happened. In a few more weeks it will be interesting to hear muzh excuses on why he was so mistaken. He definitely won't own up to his own arrogance. Hehe
Fathertime!
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Says a lot about the original poster, no?
Many have tried to explain our paladin that strategy does not make any sense. However, he seems to be more knowledgeable than intelligence analysts
You have no access to intelligence analyst's reports. I don't believe we are given the real scoop. I believe this will be solved without the Russian troops invading. You have already been dreadfully wrong with your earlier 'sage' predictions and I believe you will be dreadfully wrong again. If that happens you will lash out in anger rather than celebration.
Fathertime!
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I've got to chuckle at poor muzh at this point he is even bringing my wife into a political discussion. To this point his 'wise' predictions have fallen on their face. So where is the big invasion he promises? If Russia was going to invade it would have already happened. In a few more weeks it will be interesting to hear muzh excuses on why he was so mistaken. He definitely won't own up to his own arrogance. Hehe
Fathertime!
LMAO
Is that the best you have?
I showed my concern about your wifey's general well being. The least you could do is acknowledge my good sentiments towards her.
Second, I asked you, repeatedly, what is your REAL purpose on a RUSSIAN/UKRAINIAN women's forum and I'm still waiting for an answer. Not really accusing you of diversion, yet.
And no, I have no access to the daily briefing. I just read the SAME (I hope) newspapers that you do. No, no RT, sorry.
What I still do not understand is what is your purpose here. Were you hired to deal with "miscreants" like me?
Or is it your quest in life to follow forums to exert your branding justice? If that's the case, wow!
Do you know if the Latino forums have this same kind of activity with Venezuela? Now, there's a job for Superman.
Can I call you Superman, Kal-el or just plain Clark Kent? (You'd need to change your avatar. He had hair, you know.)
Just in case you missed it, I really do not take you seriously. So relax, I would never get upset with you.
Ooops, sorry. My mistake. Yes, you do irk me quite a bit. ;)
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If the Russians don't invade, then I will celebrate. I will celebrate me being wrong and you being right, FT. For us that would be a real celebration.
As Muzh is so adroitly pointing out, with you this conversation is simply a means to move your fingers up and down. These people, while trying to maintain a brave face, are scared out of their minds. I talked to a friend of mine today in Kharkiv and she was crying, worrying about her son, who is in the reserve and would be immediately called to fight if the Russians come across the border.
Your inferences that my affection for the Russians is either contrived or displayed for personal recognition, on a forum that promotes the friendship between Eastern Europeans and Westerners demonstrates, as Muzh says, that your opinions are contrary to the purpose for this forum. After all, one can appreciate a people and still disagree with what their government is doing. I know some pretty nice people in the City of Bell, but certainly would not agree that their government is 'All that'.
While this forum is open to all people, I take issue with people who come here simply to vent their opinions while not having a link to Eastern Europe or intentions of developing same.
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Well muzh, you can choose to be irked. I've stated my opinion on matters and like reading/commenting some of the stories here. It would appear one of your primary purposes here is to attempt to denigrate others as you your posts over several years bear out.
Jone your opinion on who you approve of participating doesn't concern me.
Still waiting for the 'great invasion' you guys were soooo certain of weeks ago. The 'ignorant' opinion I respectfully submitted still stands.
Fathertime!
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Well muzh, you can choose to be irked. I've stated my opinion on matters and like reading/commenting some of the stories here. It would appear one of your primary purposes here is to attempt to denigrate others as you your posts over several years bear out.
Jone your opinion on who you approve of participating doesn't concern me.
Still waiting for the 'great invasion' you guys were soooo certain of weeks ago. The 'ignorant' opinion I respectfully submitted still stands.
Fathertime!
You definitely have reading comprehension.
I am not irked by you. It slides by me.
And you still have not answered my question.
Oops, wait a minute. I guess I should stand in line. There is another person waiting for your reply to another set of questions. ;D
My, what a popular guy!!
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You definitely have reading comprehension.
I am not irked by you. It slides by me.
And you still have not answered my questions
It appears to me that almost everything you said would happen hasn't. I think you are rankled that some 'greenhorn' like me could get closer to the truth than you. I've given my opinions and stated reasons why I have come to these conclusions. Your angry personal questions aren't relevant to me and will remain unanswered.Meanwhile you have shown that you aren't able to see things to a logical conclusion. For someone who displays such arrogance and dismissiveness it is entertaining. Thank you.
Another day is passing and still no russian invasion like you say. The facts on the ground still bear out to the position I've taken. I believe in a few weeks others will realize how incorrect you have been.
fathertime!
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It appears to me that almost everything you said would happen hasn't...
Another day is passing and still no russian invasion like you say. The facts on the ground still bear out to the position I've taken. I believe in a few weeks others will realize how incorrect you have been.
That conclusion is premature. As Alex mentioned above, it takes more than a little time to put in place everything that is necessary to mount an invasion that will be opposed by more than a token force (not to mention what will be necessary for the subsequent occupation). Reports are that Russia has been assembling the air and ground forces along with the logistical capabilities to supply those forces.
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It appears to me that almost everything you said would happen hasn't. I think you are rankled that some 'greenhorn' like me could get closer to the truth than you. I've given my opinions and stated reasons why I have come to these conclusions. Your angry personal questions aren't relevant to me and will remain unanswered.Meanwhile you have shown that you aren't able to see things to a logical conclusion. For someone who displays such arrogance and dismissiveness it is entertaining. Thank you.
Another day is passing and still no russian invasion like you say. The facts on the ground still bear out to the position I've taken. I believe in a few weeks others will realize how incorrect you have been.
fathertime!
LMAO
Bob and weave.
How can I be "rankled" with so much amusement from you?
I really don't care if you got it right or not. As a matter of fact no matter what we guess really matters. However, and maybe you should ponder on this, you walk into a group of people who share the same interests and instead of listening and observing you start antagonising people that share a common interest.
It is like inviting yourself to a private party and then becoming the obnoxious loudmouth that no one invited. Ever been to a party like that?
And you keep mentioning a mirror. How ironic.
How can I be rankled with stuff like that?
Funny.
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That conclusion is premature. As Alex mentioned above, it takes more than a little time to put in place everything that is necessary to mount an invasion that will be opposed by more than a token force (not to mention what will be necessary for the subsequent occupation). Reports are that Russia has been assembling the air and ground forces along with the logistical capabilities to supply those forces.
Correct. I shared this link below elsewhere, here it is for those that have not seen it. The situation is escalating, supplies are being brought in for an invasion. At this point the question is not whether the plans are to invade but if they can be stopped by an event or outside pressure.
http://www.janes.com/article/36324/russian-buildup-around-belgorod-continues (http://www.janes.com/article/36324/russian-buildup-around-belgorod-continues)
Take a look at the airstrip. Notice how it is covered with crates. An entire airstrip covered with supplies in 10 days. Heavy crates they need to keep from sinking in the mud. Like Jone and many others here I hope you are correct FT, but it is not looking good.
EDIT - btw, we staged our invasion of Iraq over a period of 3 months before going in.
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At this point the question is not whether the plans are to invade but if they can be stopped by an event or outside pressure.
Hey, the US put a warship on the Black Sea... that'll put an immediate and decisive end to the Russian invasion plans..
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Hey, the US put a warship on the Black Sea... that'll put an immediate and decisive end to the Russian invasion plans..
Actually it will be explained along this line when no invasion happens. :)
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LMAO
Bob and weave.
How can I be "rankled" with so much amusement from you?
I really don't care if you got it right or not. As a matter of fact no matter what we guess really matters. However, and maybe you should ponder on this, you walk into a group of people who share the same interests and instead of listening and observing you start antagonising people that share a common interest.
It is like inviting yourself to a private party and then becoming the obnoxious loudmouth that no one invited. Ever been to a party like that?
And you keep mentioning a mirror. How ironic.
How can I be rankled with stuff like that?
Funny.
You are such a crybaby now I love it! Your anger contradicts your words though and that is also nice to see. Why? Because I refuse to permit you to 'shout down' the opinion I'm giving. I chuckle at your arrogance and how incorrect you have been...now you are trying to even hedge on your earlier comments. You have misread the situation from the start. You have 'graced' this forum for years with your intolerance and ignorance. You were given opportunities to engage in a discussion, but you have failed.
Fathertime!
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I read today that Russia is now advising its citizens not to travel to any Western friendly country in the world. They base this recommendation on the reaction to Crimea, but, in reality, they are warning their citizenry of what lies ahead.
Attached is the article:
http://www.utro.ru/peredovica/
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That conclusion is premature. As Alex mentioned above, it takes more than a little time to put in place everything that is necessary to mount an invasion that will be opposed by more than a token force (not to mention what will be necessary for the subsequent occupation). Reports are that Russia has been assembling the air and ground forces along with the logistical capabilities to supply those forces.
Correct. I shared this link below elsewhere, here it is for those that have not seen it. The situation is escalating, supplies are being brought in for an invasion. At this point the question is not whether the plans are to invade but if they can be stopped by an event or outside pressure.
http://www.janes.com/article/36324/russian-buildup-around-belgorod-continues (http://www.janes.com/article/36324/russian-buildup-around-belgorod-continues)
Take a look at the airstrip. Notice how it is covered with crates. An entire airstrip covered with supplies in 10 days. Heavy crates they need to keep from sinking in the mud. Like Jone and many others here I hope you are correct FT, but it is not looking good.
EDIT - btw, we staged our invasion of Iraq over a period of 3 months before going in.
Hey guys, of course I hear your point about the time it takes to stage an invasion...except that is not what I think they are doing. I believe Russia had plenty of time to prepare and get their materials in gear IF they really were going to invade. I realize that the force has the capability to invade, but to then occupy a large (mostly) hostile region does not seem at all realistic to me. I don't see Russia attempting to pull this off at this time. The credible threat to invade is paying dividends for them, and I believe it will pay off when the sides sit at the negotiating table. My feeling remains that while the force has the capability to invade, it will not...a deal will be worked out...and at least part of the reason for that is the credible threat of invasion.
Bottom line, I don't see Russia occupying Ukraine and that is what it would take...so I think they will use other means to gain what they want to gain...
Of course MCCain wants to arm Ukraine...which I think would be a disaster.
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/mccain-send-arms-to-ukraine/ (http://freebeacon.com/national-security/mccain-send-arms-to-ukraine/)
Fathertime!
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... Of course MCCain wants to arm Ukraine...which I think would be a disaster....
Pay no mind to that idiot. He wants to arm everybody including Al Qaeda. Someone in DC ought to retire that mofo and soon.
He ought to retire in Canada and kill baby seals instead. Hell...then again, he'll probably want to arm them, too..
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He ought to retire in Canada and kill baby seals instead. Hell...then again, he'll probably want to arm them, too..
Leave our baby seals alone please!
He ought to retire in the U.S. and kill baby seals Navy SEALS instead.
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Pay no mind to that idiot. He wants to arm everybody including Al Qaeda. Someone in DC ought to retire that mofo and soon.
He ought to retire in Canada and kill baby seals instead. Hell...then again, he'll probably want to arm them, too..
Leave our baby seals alone please!
He ought to retire in the U.S. and kill baby seals Navy SEALS instead.
Thank goodness this deranged war-monger didn't stumble his way into the white house.
Here is a wonderful quote from the article:
McCain acknowledged the arms would not likely enable Ukraine to defeat the Russians in open war, but emphasized it could improve the Ukrainian military’s morale and ensure that the Russians would have “a real fight on their hands” if they invaded further.
-Yeah, arm those worthless people so more of THEM can get killed, that will do wonders for morale....The McCain technique is to turn a brush fire into an inferno whenever possible....not to mention this isn't a battle we should be chest-deep into anyway.
Fathertime!
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The McCain technique is to turn a brush fire into an inferno whenever possible..
Then it seems several members here are actually McCAIN ! ! ! !
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Then it seems several members here are actually McCAIN ! ! ! !
It certainly looks like you're trying to start something since that comment didn't add anything to the discussion and was inflammatory in nature.
Not the first type of comment made by you I might add.
Welcome to the McCain club Dewed.
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sorry for my poor attempt at humor. it just seems every thread eventually devolves into a festering flame fest...
carry on
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sorry for my poor attempt at humor. it just seems every thread eventually devolves into a festering flame fest...
carry on
We have a passionate group here. :D
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-Yeah, arm those worthless people so more of THEM can get killed, that will do wonders for morale....The McCain technique is to turn a brush fire into an inferno whenever possible....
If the Russian army invades which gets lots of people get killed, it's not Ukraine's fault or McCain's fault if they were to receive weapons or not. Kind of like blaming the home owner who purchased a gun for security for deaths when an intruder enters the house.
Besides Ukraine, NATO members in east Europe and Japan have asked America to send over weapons. Obama sent a few fighter planes to the Baltics, one ship to the Black Sea and two ships over to Japan. Not enough to take on Russia and certainly not enough to even scare Russia. Another reason many of our allies think Obama is weak. Don't feel sorry for those people if they die. They know the odds are against them but they still would like to have additional weapons so they'd have a fighting chance. What they'd really like is their nukes back.
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IMHO.. the ball is really in the court of the Ukranian citizens. Are they going to fall for the ploy put on by paid Russian loyalists to incite rebellion or are they going to think for themselves and see Putin's somewhat rusty propaganda machine for what is. That will be the deciding factor on whether Russia moves further westward, and what NATO's response will be.
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Regarding the governmental buildings that the pro-Russians are currently occupying. One option I haven't heard discussed is to simply let them occupy them. Bypass the buildings if possible and conduct business elsewhere. Germany didn't engage France on the Maginot line, do the Ukrainian authorities really need to engage the Pro-Russians in these fortified buildings, or would isolating them be a smarter move? That is a not a statement, but rather a question. I see potential pluses and minuses either way.
Fathertime!
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Still waiting for the 'great invasion' you guys were soooo certain of weeks ago. The 'ignorant' opinion I respectfully submitted still stands.
Everyone must wait a month. In my opinion the time around May 25 will be when Russia plays it's card for good or bad. Ukraine election day. It depends if they want to disrupt, influence, or negate the election. Many excuses can be used during this time if needed to save Ukraine's Russian population.
Obama will be on a Memorial Day vacation playing golf and oblivious to what's going on in the world. Putin knows he could be in Kiev before Obama gets back to the Whitehouse on May 27.
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Yeah, arm those worthless people so more of THEM can get killed,
I never thought you were out of line before.....but calling them worthless is to much.
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IMHO.. the ball is really in the court of the Ukranian citizens. Are they going to fall for the ploy put on by paid Russian loyalists to incite rebellion or are they going to think for themselves and see Putin's somewhat rusty propaganda machine for what is.
There's still a significant amount of people in Ukraine that are pro Russia. No need for propaganda to get those people to believe. What they need is support. East Ukraine was relatively calm before a few days ago but now they were told it's time to start taking over the government buildings and claim they are separating from Ukraine. This would not have happened if Putin found a viable pro Russian candidate that could get elected as President or if UN monitors were not coming to Ukraine to ensure a fair election.
There are a lot of selfish people in the world and if we're in the minority and someone told us they'll help get our man/woman elected or create our own nation, we may take them up on their offer and do as told to get it done. I'm sure there are plenty of people in America would do something illegal to get a republican or democrat elected and not feel bad because they believe in their own minds they're doing it for the greater good.
Russia can easily give pro Russian's, in Ukraine, citizenship and offer them a safe home in Russia free of discrimination. Russia doesn't want those people to come to Russia. Russia needs those people to stay on the land they're living on.
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I never thought you were out of line before.....but calling them worthless is to much.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I feel that McCain's idea of arming them to be slaughtered would be tantamount to saying their lives are worthless...I don't feel that way myself. There has to be a better way.imo
Fathertime!
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I agree, Billy, while in a minority, the people in the occupied buildings are Ukrainians that wish to be part of Russia. But their numbers are few. And the longer they sit there, the fewer they are.
I would guess that the next move would be to try to re-take a building in Kharkiv.
The demographic for voting has changed in Ukraine. Moreover, there is now great push back against the Russians. Quite honestly, Putin is hated by the great majority of Ukrainians. I don't see any Party of Regions candidates receiving a significant number of votes.
As we get closer to the election, and seeing that there is no political out for Russia, once again, I state that Putin really has no option but to send in the troops. As Alex says, the only solution that prevents this is if the Kremlin sees that the cost will be too high.
Interestingly, while two buildings are occupied in Donetsk and Lugansk, it is business as usual in these cities. Less than a mile away, kids are playing in parks, people are strolling on the sidewalks and there is no indication that there is any rebellion ongoing. This is not conducive to invasion and makes Putin's incursion more difficult. Certainly, there is no call for a referendum, other than these select 300 people in two buildings.
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You are such a crybaby now I love it! Your anger contradicts your words though and that is also nice to see. Why? Because I refuse to permit you to 'shout down' the opinion I'm giving. I chuckle at your arrogance and how incorrect you have been...now you are trying to even hedge on your earlier comments. You have misread the situation from the start. You have 'graced' this forum for years with your intolerance and ignorance. You were given opportunities to engage in a discussion, but you have failed.
Fathertime!
Hey baldie, just for you. :blowkiss:
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Correct. I shared this link below elsewhere, here it is for those that have not seen it. The situation is escalating, supplies are being brought in for an invasion. At this point the question is not whether the plans are to invade but if they can be stopped by an event or outside pressure.
http://www.janes.com/article/36324/russian-buildup-around-belgorod-continues (http://www.janes.com/article/36324/russian-buildup-around-belgorod-continues)
Take a look at the airstrip. Notice how it is covered with crates. An entire airstrip covered with supplies in 10 days. Heavy crates they need to keep from sinking in the mud. Like Jone and many others here I hope you are correct FT, but it is not looking good.
EDIT - btw, we staged our invasion of Iraq over a period of 3 months before going in.
Here is a good indication the US will do nothing.
Exclusive: Key General Splits With Obama Over Ukraine (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/11/exclusive-key-general-splits-with-obama-over-ukraine.html)
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Here is a good indication the US will do nothing....
...and I hope it stays that way.
Ukrainians didn't want to be part of NATO. Ukrainians didn't want the US meddling in their affairs. By all accounts, outside of the business deals they signed with the US and European corporate bodies, no other segment of US should be in this crisis. Isn't this why the world have the United Nations?
If the Ukrainian population and their leaders didn't have the foresight of the ramifications of what can happen during their siege of Kiev, then why should this be anyone else's business?
Ukrainians made their choice, they should be allowed to pursue their wishes. Isn't this what they wanted? So what's the big deal? Why should this be an international concern or affair that needs to get other countries involved in their internal affairs?
Seriously, how is this the US' concern? Neither Ukraine or Russia is a threat to us. Someone, give me one viable reason why the US should be involved in this crisis?
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There is none.
The US should not be involved at this point.
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Here is a link to a Der Spiegel article (translated into English) that asserts German public opinion about Russia is very much divided, with Social Democrats especially viewing Russia more favorably than other Germans do (just as in the days of the USSR). Unfortunately, it doesn't provide any polling data to support its claims.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/conflict-with-russia-raises-buried-questions-of-german-identity-a-963014.html
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Ukrainians didn't want the US meddling in their affairs.
GQ, that depends on who you ask. ;)
I have this friend who in now part of the new government who would point blak tell you she'd be happy to have the Americans in Ukrainian soil. She just left for the border with an inspection team and should be back tomorrow.
HOWEVER, I kept telling her this was an Ukrainian issue and that Ukraine should not expect any direct US military aid. I gave her my reasons, same as what I've said here all along. So far, what I told her about US intervention has happened. Nichivo.
Between you and me, Ukrainians miscalculated Putin's miscalculations. I would say the majority of Ukrainians were positive that once they got rid of Yanukonvict, they would be dealing with Russia in a more equitable manner.
Not so.
Slowly but surely the satellite pictures of Russian forces amassing at their borders are making the rounds in social media. As my friend told me, many have made their peace with god.
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Seriously, how is this the US' concern?
It's not; it's Europe's concern.
Europe understands Ukraine and Russia better than we do, and approaches this conflict more as a neighbor than a global adversary.
If the Ukrainian-Russian conflict reaches critical mass, Europe has the most to lose in the form of possible interruptions of energy from a key supplier.
If Ukraine revitalizes its economy and draws closer to the West, Europe has the most to gain in the form of increased trade.
Europe should take the lead, yet the US still should support Ukraine's efforts with economic aid and diplomatic measures. IMO, the aid will not amount to much, and the diplomacy will be the empty rhetoric we have grown to expect from this administration.
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Seriously, how is this the US' concern? Neither Ukraine or Russia is a threat to us. Someone, give me one viable reason why the US should be involved in this crisis?
There are a lot of leaders of the free world asking America to do something about this situation and you're asking why we should be involved? The dangers of doing nothing far outweigh the risks of doing something. As silly and insignificant as those sanctions were, even Obama felt it was important to stop Russia from advancing.
Next time your friend's butt is getting kicked, ask him why you should even get involved. Russia's Ukrainian puppet president got his butt kicked and Russia did something about it. People may not like Putin but they will respect him.
Even if Europe has the most to gain and lose with what's going on, America is affected if our friends are hurting. When world leaders are having their meetings, you can be sure they're talking about how weak Obama is and that undermines America's reputation. Got to rely on themselves for security. Start up the nukes.
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I feel that McCain's idea of arming them to be slaughtered would be tantamount to saying their lives are worthless...I don't feel that way myself.
Thanks for clarifying that. :clapping:
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Thanks for clarifying that. :clapping:
How are you able to post a quote that does not identify the person you are quoting? I don't even know how to do that; and what is the purpose of doing that? Just curious.
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Seriously, how is this the US' concern? Neither Ukraine or Russia is a threat to us. Someone, give me one viable reason why the US should be involved in this crisis?
I don't think we should be involved either...I agree with many of the reasons gator gave.
Fathertime!
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There are many opinions on what the US should do.
My feeling is that the US should not be involved. In this particular instance, the US is not in a position to be involved.
Many opinions have been voiced about what the end game is for Russia with Ukraine. I am going to tell you exactly what I think Russia's goal is:
Russia wants a subservient and weak Ukraine that it can dominate. It is that simple.
I recently watched a special on Narva, a Russian stronghold in Estonia. It was remarkable. The Russian heritage people interviewed all were proud of their Russian heritage. And they are not happy that Estonia makes them learn Estonian and use it as a language. But they look across the Narva River and see how the Russians live on the other side and NONE of them want to be part of Russia.
This is the great fear Russia has. Other countries, with less resources are doing more for their citizenry. Russia operates a plutocracy. A few in Russia have all the wealth and dominate the country. Still Russia has a second tier economy. As big as Russia is, it's economy is only the size of Turkey and Italy put together. While the standard of living is higher than it was only ten years ago, it still is not commiserate with, say, Poland or the Baltic States.
Right now, the best the the Kremlin can do is to point to a patriotism based on emotion. Quite honestly, it makes up a bunch of lies. The citizenry of Russia has no problem applauding Putin when he tells whoppers to his (supposed) enemies. But does the citizenry know that if he has the propensity to do that outside of Russia, he certainly is doing it to his own people?
So assuming that Russia wants the Subservient Ukraine, what then would be the end game?
1. Disrupt business in Ukraine.
Evidence: Increasing gas prices. Demanding advance payments. Cancelling business contracts so companies no longer have trading partners.
2. Call for Federalization.
Evidence: Russia has told Ukraine that it needs to federalize each of the regions of Ukraine to give them autonomy. Such would dramatically weaken Kyiv and allow Russia to pick off prime parts of Ukraine for its own purposes.
3. Sponsor Separatism:
Evidence: Various agents of Russia are active throughout Ukraine. They are on buses, at local gatherings and facilitating unrest where ever they can. Various estimates puts the number of Russian agents in Ukraine at over 2000, mostly centered in the Eastern cities.
4. Disrupt Elections:
By targeting the propaganda war with calls for referendums, prior to the national election, Russia is trying to thwart a strong showing by a centralized Ukraine. The internet war is huge right now. I alluded to it earlier. If you go on the Russian based social networks, the cumulative thoughts about Ukraine are words that do not belong on the internet. Ultimately, the Party of Regions no longer has enough votes to get a Russian heritage candidate elected. So, absent someone friendly as President, the next best thing to do is make sure whoever is elected has no support and no power. Over the next couple of weeks expect Moscow to throw the kitchen sink at Ukrainians. (Fascists, Russian haters, Jew haters, you name it.)
5. Invasion
I believe that right now the invasion card is off the table. Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, their leadership knows everything that Russia is doing and is countering it with some success. That will leave only one option open to V. V. Putin: Invasion. Russia has enough agents in Ukraine that it can effectively create attacks on its own people (like was done in Chechnya). If some Russian nationals get killed in order to get Russian tanks into Ukraine, so be it. The Kremlin has done it before. It will certainly do it if all other gambits fail.
So why should the US not get involved? Quite honestly, this is Europe's play. I have said from the beginning that Germany should lead any response to Russia. Not only is Germany one of Russia's top three trading partners (Netherlands and China are the other two) but Germany controls much of EU economics currently. Finally, the elimination of Natural Gas flowing to Germany would significantly impact German society (although not as much in the upcoming summer months). One more thought: You really do not want to get the Preacher's Daughter pissed off. She is one worthy adversary. I would much rather have Angela Merkel leading the charge against Russia, then to have BHO trying his unusual brand of diplomacy.
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How are you able to post a quote that does not identify the person you are quoting? I don't even know how to do that; and what is the purpose of doing that? Just curious.
Thats just what I have always done. Just highlight the text and copy it. I am going to try and use the quote feature that shows the author more often. I know on some sites people use the quote feature and it keeps adding everything everyone has said. I find that annoying. I also understand that not showing the author of the quote is annoying to some as well.
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... I know on some sites people use the quote feature and it keeps adding everything everyone has said. I find that annoying...
You can use the quote tool and then pare down the extraneous material that you don't want left in. I know it's a bit more trouble.
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Jone has been rather disrespectful as far as I'm concerned regarding other 'uninformed' opinions. NOW this quiet UTURN comes about
5. Invasion
I believe that right now the invasion card is off the table.
as it turns out Jone has come around to the same opinion I've held from early on, which he has derided...here is what he had to say earlier before the UTURN.
FT, But he got his crank stepped on and decided to be a gunslinger. Now like a kid telling a lie in class, he has no choice but to bluff his way out. And the world is watching. And no one believes him. So the only thing he can do is be naughtier. Mark my words. He will invade Eastern Ukraine. He has no choice.For those who are worried about Crimea? Why worry. It is the boobie prize. No one is going to be happy owning it now. It will be a place of strife and will be sealed off from the rest of Ukraine. It is the South Ossetia of the Black Sea. Lucky they have some good harbors there, because that is the only way that Russia is going to be able to resupply it.And when Russia invades Ukraine, those Ukrainian tanks are going to respond. And the world will watch with horror for the first two weeks, this plucky little country responding to aggression. And then they will back her with arms and soldiers. And Russia will now have stepped on their own crank and Putin will have less than two years left in power before the people, again, rise up in revolt.
To FT, you talk of a win/win situation. If Putin walks away with only Crimea, he is removed from office in less than two years. He has set himself on a course that can only be sustained with the invasion of Eastern Ukraine.
:crackwhip: FP, I still believe Putin is going to invade. I, along with the majority of Ukrainians.
Belvis, Russia is not there to have military exercises, they are their to intimidate and probably invade. Frankly, it makes me want to call my Congressman and have the US do a little intimidation of our own. Maybe put two or three divisions in Latvia. Do military exercises there with drones and field hospitals and armored columns. Big enough to reach Moscow. Accompanied by the stealth weapons that your country has no idea how to defend against. (Gonna land another drone in Crimea? Hahahahahaha!) It is time for you to grow up Belvis and show a little compassion with your words - maybe even apologize for your leaders.
Well Jone, you have been rather dismissive of Belvis too...even suggesting he apologize (where is that evidence that I demanded an apology from a Russian woman?)...YOU have been insisting that the RUssians are going to invade Ukraine...well A couple of us spoke out RESPECTFULLY (against the majority here) and didn't believe that was likely all along, and you decided to engage by acting like a dismissive know-it-all.....
You also advocated the US getting involved earlier on, although now you are advocating little to no involvement NOW...JUST AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING RIGHT ALONG.
Perhaps going forward you should be a little more respectful of us dum-dums, who have our own set of insights, which as you are learning are quite valid....
Fathertime!
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So why should the US not get involved? Quite honestly, this is Europe's play.
A lot of people believe America was involved in regime change in response to Russia controlling the regime in Ukraine for many years. If Obama did support and encourage people to risk their lives for America's agenda, Obama should back those people up a lot more than just sending 300,000 MREs(Meals Ready to Eat).
Obama's actions will hurt America everywhere else in the world now and for a long time coming. If there's any chance a large group of citizens who want to rebel against Iran, North Korea or any other place in the world, they are less likely to believe America and accept support. America's influence will dwindle and with that it's status.
Many people say America should stay out of other nation's business. No country or empire has ever become stronger becoming isolationists. If it were true, full blown sanctions against Russia would make them stronger. Big nations like Russia and America understand if they need to be involved in other nations business. Some nations want to take away other people's freedom and few want to preserve it.
Europe isn't capable of getting anything done in their own back yard when it comes to conflicts. That's why things can spiral out of control. They couldn't get things done in Yugoslavia and Libya without America's help.
As soon as Ukraine had it's revolution and Russia cried it's citizens are in danger, Obama should have sent America troops there to help Russia protect it's citizens as a gesture of good will for our pal Putin just as we sent Putin American warships to help with security of the Olympics. With the absence of hostilities, Russian covert operations to encourage unrest, and discrimination against Russian citizens, together we could help Ukraine have a fair election.
Lots of BS goes on in this world. During debates on whether or not Iraq had WMD's I stated Bush went into Iraq for another reason he knew that couldn't be accepted for war. Europe, Russia, and a few American companies continued to do business with Iraq which violated the UN resolutions everybody signed on to. Iraq was not the only guilty party. It wouldn't be nice of Bush to publicly announce the level of corruption engage in by our friends so he put an end to it with another Iraq war. There are a lot more nations with questionable activities than America's so those of you who want to see America in decline, think about who's best to replace us so we can head in that direction.
I once communicated with a RW who didn't like America's policies. I asked her who she thought was the best example of a country. She named Switzerland because they're neutral and don't start fights. I told her that Switzerland kept/stole many of the holocaust victims money after WW2 and if there were more countries like them in the world, guys like Hitler will be ruling the world. Good people and nations have to be willing to fight against aggression.
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Jone has been rather disrespectful as far as I'm concerned regarding other 'uninformed' opinions. NOW this quiet UTURN comes about
as it turns out Jone has come around to the same opinion I've held from early on, which he has derided...here is what he had to say earlier before the UTURN.
Well Jone, you have been rather dismissive of Belvis too...even suggesting he apologize (where is that evidence that I demanded an apology from a Russian woman?)...YOU have been insisting that the RUssians are going to invade Ukraine...well A couple of us spoke out RESPECTFULLY (against the majority here) and didn't believe that was likely all along, and you decided to engage by acting like a dismissive know-it-all.....
You also advocated the US getting involved earlier on, although now you are advocating little to no involvement NOW...JUST AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING RIGHT ALONG.
Perhaps going forward you should be a little more respectful of us dum-dums, who have our own set of insights, which as you are learning are quite valid....
Fathertime!
Congratulations for quoting me out of context. If you read what I said, I said that Ukraine's leadership is showing enough competence that Putin has no choice but to invade. As always, you read what you want to. I have not changed my opinion since the onset. I have just given more clarity as the Russian positions have come into focus.
Your win/win claims are just about the most idiotic postings on this forum. And for people with family or friends in Ukraine, watching their country decimated and you claiming its a win for them is abhorrent and uninformed.
So tell us again what a WIN this is for Ukraine!
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I have not changed my opinion since the onset.
Haha, you are like a propaganda machine for yourself. Let’s examine your lie that I’ve quoted you out of context:
Here is 2 of your ENTIRE quotes: You clearly state that Putin is invading:
FT,I have one objection to your line of thought, although we are very close. The whole idea for the end of the Cold War was that we could get more out of cooperation than we could out of opposing each other. Every country has their interests. They should be expected to protect their interests.But the greater good of the world is served when people rise above the regional interests and join the global economy. Most of Europe had thought that Russia had done so. I thought that Russia had done so. I have traveled through Russia and seen that the middle class is indeed arriving.Now, in one month, in what I firmly believe was an unplanned operation, Putin has taken Russia out of the global economy and set the world back two decades.And the shitte thing about the whole situation is that he had it within his grasp to have his cake and eat it too. He controls Ukraine through the pipeline, through the shared border and through the economic advantage that he has. In a period of three or four years, it would have been as before, only better.But he got his crank stepped on and decided to be a gunslinger. Now like a kid telling a lie in class, he has no choice but to bluff his way out. And the world is watching. And no one believes him. So the only thing he can do is be naughtier. Mark my words. He will invade Eastern Ukraine. He has no choice.For those who are worried about Crimea? Why worry. It is the boobie prize. No one is going to be happy owning it now. It will be a place of strife and will be sealed off from the rest of Ukraine. It is the South Ossetia of the Black Sea. Lucky they have some good harbors there, because that is the only way that Russia is going to be able to resupply it.And when Russia invades Ukraine, those Ukrainian tanks are going to respond. And the world will watch with horror for the first two weeks, this plucky little country responding to aggression. And then they will back her with arms and soldiers. And Russia will now have stepped on their own crank and Putin will have less than two years left in power before the people, again, rise up in revolt. That is why the United States should keep their nose out of the affair. Putin is doing plenty well sealing his own fate without us.
There are no IF AND's or BUT'S in your earlier statement. You are being quoted in context as it I've included your entire quote. You have changed your position and have no moved over to the position you derided earlier.
:crackwhip: FP, I still believe Putin is going to invade. I, along with the majority of Ukrainians. If not he has polarized a neighbor and made them so pro-west that they will turn totally away from Russia. And all for a Crimean economy that he will have to support. A pariah supporting a pariah. It doesn't make any sense. It will be five years before they get that bridge built from Russia to Crimea. By that time, Crimea will be in open revolt again because of how bad their lives have become. Lucky they have the Russian troops on station.
NOW you are claiming that 300 Russian sympathizers are reigning hell on Ukraine from the inside out and calling that an invasion. I believe you have been downplaying the strength of the resistance against the new quite possibly illegal regime. The Russian tanks aren't rolling, troops are staying where they are, so if that doesn't happen going forward are you still going to call this an invasion?
It looks to me like there is a lot more support within Ukraine then what you are claiming, the resistance has just taken over a lot of police stations today and appears to be gathering strength. This doesn't look like a Russian invasion, but the beginnings of a genuine civil war. which if it occurs will almost certainly negate my win-win. I believe that the two sides had better get to the bargaining table REAL soon....if they do, everybody will win and loss of life can be minimized.
[size=78%]http://news.yahoo.com/uniformed-men-occupy-donetsk-police-hq-143227064.html (http://news.yahoo.com/uniformed-men-occupy-donetsk-police-hq-143227064.html)[/size]
Fathertime!
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"I STILL BELIEVE THIS IS A WIN/WIN for RUSSIA AND UKRAINE!" Hedging your bets are you? Now you say if there is civil war that it might (just possibly) not be a win for Ukraine. :rolleyes:
Every one of my five points is legitimate. The script is being read according to Russia's plan.
You are absolutely naive if you think anything short of capitulation is going to appease the Kremlin!
Haven't you figured out yet that these building seizure operations are a staged operation?
Then as soon as the move is made, Russia makes a grandstand statement with the Army it has set up just across the border stating that if Ukraine makes any move to dislodge the occupiers that Russia will invade.
There is absolutely no desire by Russia to negotiate. Unless it gets everything it wants: Ukraine as a subservient client state.
Mark my words. Putin will invade. He has no choice. I would like very much to be wrong. But on these things, I'm usually not.
So, let's look at the score:
1. Kharkiv - Occupation operation thwarted. Seizure of buildings thwarted. Occupiers disbursed.
2. Mykolaiv - Occupation operation thwarted. Seizure of buildings thwarted. Occupiers in hospital, having had the shite beat out of them.
3. Donetsk - Occupation held by two hundred occupiers of a government building. Normal operation of government resumed.
4. Lughansk - Occupation by approximately 100 people of security offices. 56 people released. Only occupiers remain.
5. Small town police station overpowered - Occupation of approximately 60 people. Situation still undetermined.
So, in all of Eastern Ukraine, only about 500 people are in a state of rebellion. The populace is not flocking to support the occupiers because there are no Russian troops in place to force the issue. There is no popular uprising in Eastern Ukraine, only staged operations to try to destabilize.
This is a full-on Russian operation. But the results desired are no where near enough to overthrow the regional government. Russia has no choice but to try to take things to the next level.
I stand by my statements that Putin will invade.
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"I STILL BELIEVE THIS IS A WIN/WIN for RUSSIA AND UKRAINE!" Hedging your bets are you? Now you say if there is civil war that it might (just possibly) not be a win for Ukraine. :rolleyes:
It is not hedging my bet if I say I'm wrong...IF there is a bloody extended civil war it would not be a win for Ukraine. That hasn't happened though, and if it doesn't my point may still come to pass. At this point I still believe there will be a negotiation where both sides will have some positives and walk away satisfied enough.
Every one of my five points is legitimate. The script is being read according to Russia's plan.
You are absolutely naive if you think anything short of capitulation is going to appease the Kremlin!
Haven't you figured out yet that these building seizure operations are a staged operation?
Then as soon as the move is made, Russia makes a grandstand statement with the Army it has set up just across the border stating that if Ukraine makes any move to dislodge the occupiers that Russia will invade.
There is absolutely no desire by Russia to negotiate. Unless it gets everything it wants: Ukraine as a subservient client state.
I stand by my statements that Putin will invade.
We shall see about that. From what I've seen, it appears to me that this is more than just a few hundred people staging a rebellion for show. I still hold the position that Russia would have taken the parts of Ukraine that it wanted right away if that is what they intended on doing. Nobody or nothing would have stopped them.
If Ukraine winds up being a federation where certain Eastern Parts are more sympathetic towards Russia, I'd consider that a reasonable enough solution, and I'd say many others would too. It certainly appears by the prior election that much of E. Ukraine does not share the same loyalties as much of W. Ukraine. I think you are glossing over these differences to fit your narrative, which to this point as not come to pass. If those tanks don't roll into Ukraine at some point, what you have said will be incorrect and you will have been the naive one.
Fathertime!
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I have lived there. You haven't.
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FT, your desire to be right is crossed line from being annoying to making feel sick.
Understand simple fact: invasion already started while ago. Russians occupying part of Ukraine already. Russian military intelligence and diversion units operating on territory of Ukraine.
And no there is no WIN/WIN for Ukraine ans Ukrainians. Please control your urges to wipe other members noses with your rightfulness (most of the time it is BS by the way). Already died a lot of people and no one knows how many more will. For many what is happening in Ukraine is tragedy, your desire to scream on every page how right you are is reprehensible.
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This is a full-on Russian operation. But the results desired are no where near enough to overthrow the regional government. Russia has no choice but to try to take things to the next level.
Putin is now trying to have talks with Europe and telling America to stay out. Europe is much more likely to let Russia have their way with Ukraine than America. If Germany and France tells America to back off because Russia's gas and trade is too important to them, Ukraine will be handed over to Russia without Russian troops needing to invade. But a Russian backed civil war may still be needed to rid of the pro West politicians and the citizens who support them. Civil war may be bloodier than a Russian invasion.
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-pledges-fulfil-europe-gas-obligations-144135859.html
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I have lived there. You haven't.
Which has led to you having obvious biases which have distorted your views.....
FT, your desire to be right is crossed line from being annoying to making feel sick.
Understand simple fact: invasion already started while ago. Russians occupying part of Ukraine already. Russian military intelligence and diversion units operating on territory of Ukraine.
And no there is no WIN/WIN for Ukraine ans Ukrainians. Please control your urges to wipe other members noses with your rightfulness (most of the time it is BS by the way). Already died a lot of people and no one knows how many more will. For many what is happening in Ukraine is tragedy, your desire to scream on every page how right you are is reprehensible.
Ultimately if I'm right or wrong wont' matter. I'm not concerned what you find reprehensible. There is more than one view on the subject and I've decided to present a view I've formed, despite the pleas for everybody to come to the same conclusions.
To this point there has been no invasion (and I don't think there will be)....the USA has avoided getting into this TOO deep...and there is still a potential for the countries to wind up with an outcome they can live with (a win). those are my central points. If/when one of them is shown to be wrong I will admit to it and move on...I think ultimately the sides will come together and everybody will save some face. If you feel that it is reprehensible, then that is too bad.
Fathertime!
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To this point there has been no invasion...
Are you sure about that?
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Are you sure about that?
If you feel there has been an invasion, then I'll read what you have to say...from what I've seen there has not been an invasion.
In addition, I'm not sure what the US has done and is doing, but I don't want the USA to be a central figure in this. If we join in, I feel this will escalate to an unnecessary high pitch. I don't see Russia backing down.
Fathertime!
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Chatting with my programmers today who lives in eastern Ukraine, he described the 'invasion' was more like a band of hooligans being cheered along. Even the police, who mostly 'think towards RU' are just turning a blind eye. Seems RU has the 'silent majority'.
Definitely not an invasion, but instead a sort of contagion.
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Chatting with my programmers today who lives in eastern Ukraine, he described the 'invasion' was more like a band of hooligans being cheered along. Even the police, who mostly 'think towards RU' are just turning a blind eye.
Not sure about that from the latest footage out of Ukraine. These are trained military forces trading gunfire with local officers.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27005783 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27005783)
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GQ, that depends on who you ask. ;)
I have this friend who in now part of the new government who would point blak tell you she'd be happy to have the Americans in Ukrainian soil. She just left for the border with an inspection team and should be back tomorrow.
HOWEVER, I kept telling her this was an Ukrainian issue and that Ukraine should not expect any direct US military aid. I gave her my reasons, same as what I've said here all along. So far, what I told her about US intervention has happened. Nichivo.
Between you and me, Ukrainians miscalculated Putin's miscalculations. I would say the majority of Ukrainians were positive that once they got rid of Yanukonvict, they would be dealing with Russia in a more equitable manner.
Not so.....
I agree.
It could very well be that the short-sighted Ukrainian *leadership* were not exactly the driving force (cause) in this crisis, but rather induced by the background players who has a vested interest in the (in)stability of Ukraine.
It's a quagmire considering these are the same players seated in the SC council which renders, yet again, the UN impotent in this crisis.
As Gator cited:
It's not; it's Europe's concern.
Europe understands Ukraine and Russia better than we do, and approaches this conflict more as a neighbor than a global adversary.
If the Ukrainian-Russian conflict reaches critical mass, Europe has the most to lose in the form of possible interruptions of energy from a key supplier. ....
This crisis is really all about Europe. Just as it was in the so-called Arab Spring. IMO, any other alternative energy source are realistically at least half-a-decade away, a period Europe cannot afford to do without reliance on Russia's export.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1283-can-europe-survive-without-russian-gas/ (http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1283-can-europe-survive-without-russian-gas/)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/03/25/can-u-s-natural-gas-rescue-ukraine-from-russia/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/03/25/can-u-s-natural-gas-rescue-ukraine-from-russia/)
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21600111-reducing-europes-dependence-russian-gas-possiblebut-it-will-take-time-money-and-sustained (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21600111-reducing-europes-dependence-russian-gas-possiblebut-it-will-take-time-money-and-sustained)
Unfortunately for Ukraine, the cause-and-effect of the current political instability, and the ensuing violence and struggle in its aftermath, and likely the *real* culprit in this entire crisis; is solely Europe's complete dependence for Russian gas. Every facet of it. In the short term, Russia understands it is holding all the trump cards. It's got Europe by its balls and how much of Ukraine it can take depends on how much Europe is willing to allow them to do so. Europe would likely much rather see Ukraine reduced to ashes than lose its supply right now.
For this crisis to end today is for Europe to cut-off all gas import from Russia. Sadly for Ukraine, that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. So for now, they bear the sacrificial pawns on the board.
This entire chapter dealing with Ukraine should've been planned and handled by EU/USA far better than they did.
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I agree.
It could very well be that the short-sighted Ukrainian *leadership* were not exactly the driving force (cause) in this crisis, but rather induced by the background players who has a vested interest in the (in)stability of Ukraine.
It's a quagmire considering these are the same players seated in the SC council which renders, yet again, the UN impotent in this crisis.
You see, this is where I disagree with you.
From the very beginning this was a spontaneous demonstration. I've been hearing the mumblings way before Yanukonvict's uturn that broke the camel's back.
I know the Pro-Russians here will claim this was a CIA-sponsored NGO activity but they fail to understand that if the CIA were involved in this from the very beginning, there would not be the cluster fcuk that you find right now.
Which leads me to believe this was an FSB operation from the very beginning.
And before vocalizing, think very hard about it. Who was to benefit the most from this cluster-fcuk?
As Gator cited:
This crisis is really all about Europe. Just as it was in the so-called Arab Spring. IMO, any other alternative energy source are realistically at least half-a-decade away, a period Europe cannot afford to do without reliance on Russia's export.
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1283-can-europe-survive-without-russian-gas/ (http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1283-can-europe-survive-without-russian-gas/)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/03/25/can-u-s-natural-gas-rescue-ukraine-from-russia/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/03/25/can-u-s-natural-gas-rescue-ukraine-from-russia/)
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21600111-reducing-europes-dependence-russian-gas-possiblebut-it-will-take-time-money-and-sustained (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21600111-reducing-europes-dependence-russian-gas-possiblebut-it-will-take-time-money-and-sustained)
Unfortunately for Ukraine, the cause-and-effect of the current political instability, and the ensuing violence and struggle in its aftermath, and likely the *real* culprit in this entire crisis; is solely Europe's complete dependence for Russian gas. Every facet of it. In the short term, Russia understands it is holding all the trump cards. It's got Europe by its balls and how much of Ukraine it can take depends on how much Europe is willing to allow them to do so. Europe would likely much rather see Ukraine reduced to ashes than lose its supply right now.
For this crisis to end today is for Europe to cut-off all gas import from Russia. Sadly for Ukraine, that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. So for now, they bear the sacrificial pawns on the board.
This entire chapter dealing with Ukraine should've been planned and handled by EU/USA far better than they did.
Oh, I see you answered the question. ;D
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What is with the clips of Ukrainian armor with Russian flags? The news is full of recent, unverified accounts. The Ukrainian military is not looking competent and organized.
This seems more like the beginning of a civil war urged on and supported by Russian covert initiatives. I understand the Kiev government is proceeding cautiously, trying not to create bloodshed that could preempt the elections scheduled for next month. Yet this seems too cautious or just plain disorganized.
As I wrote elsewhere, only 40% of the Americans were patriotic in the 18th Century about fighting the British to gain our independence and the immense promise of prosperity. In Ukraine's case, they have had their independence for 20 years and prosperity is not the word for describing the outcome. I can understand the feeling of many with a short-term outlook to reunite with Russia, even though over the long term I consider it ill-advised.
It seems that Russia has to do very little to win this one. If these recent developments are any indication, a mass invasion will not be necessary. A covert one will suffice. Assuming resistance is a lost cause, where will the line be drawn on the map on what will become Russia and what remains Ukraine?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqTnlEEj9TA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqTnlEEj9TA)
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What is with the clips of Ukrainian armor with Russian flags? The news is full of recent, unverified accounts. The Ukrainian military is not looking competent and organized.
poor guys from Ukrainian army didn't eat for several days so they were fed by locals and afterwards switched sides and gave the armors to the Donetsk Republic)
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This would be a logical event that should be expected to happen almost every time a legitimate, duly elected government is violently taken over - crisis of a civil war.
Events are taking place according to the sociopolitical players' scheme that are maneuvering & fighting for dominion over Ukraine like they did in the Balkans.
http://time.com/63603/ukraine-crisis-eu-indecisive/ (http://time.com/63603/ukraine-crisis-eu-indecisive/)
"....This may seem like a rather restrained response to the specter of a military Russian assault on Ukraine – German Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said at an event in Berlin on Monday that Russia “was clearly prepared to allow tanks to roll across European borders” – but the E.U.’s 28 member nations are struggling to get past their widely differing political and economic concerns. Hitting the E.U.’s €400bn annual trade with Russia would require serious economic sacrifices at home, and the bloc has so far been hoping that its cocktail of threats, mild sanctions and a few diplomatic snubs would be enough to contain Russia’s possible territorial ambitions....
Ever since the E.U. provoked Moscow’s ire with plans to sign a trade pact with Ukraine in November, Russia has always seemed one step ahead. Putin persuaded then-President Viktor Yanukovich to jettison the deal; when Yanukovich was ousted by protests a few months later, Russia took advantage of the chaos and seized Crimea. Now Russia is accused of orchestrating the unrest in eastern Ukraine – claims Russian officials strongly deny...."
Ain't life grand (albeit for some, not all)?
btw Those tanks look like remnants from WW II, definitely museum pieces.
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In Ukraine's case, they have had their independence for 20 years and prosperity is not the word for describing the outcome.
If Russia didn't inject puppet presidents/criminals to run the country, Ukraine may be doing much better than Poland and the Baltic nations.
Many of the ex Soviet bloc nations successfully moved away from Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and joined NATO. Those nations and most Ukrainians consider time under Russia as some of the darkest and deadliest chapters in their history. People shouldn't blame America for what's going on. There's a reason many people and nations over there want to get away from Russia.
I can understand the feeling of many with a short-term outlook to reunite with Russia, even though over the long term I consider it ill-advised.
Ukraine was never fully separated with Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. Some Ukrainians think Russia is the solution and never part of the problems they've been experiencing. They have no idea that President Yanukovych ran the country according to the way Moscow wants. If Ukraine falls under Russia again, they will always be beneath Russia. If Ukrainians think their standard of living will match or be better than the Russians while under Russian rule, they are fooling themselves.
It seems that Russia has to do very little to win this one. If these recent developments are any indication, a mass invasion will not be necessary. A covert one will suffice.
I agree. It's seems Russia will soon be annexing east Ukraine. What's next? Look at the map. The border of east Ukraine is very close to Kiev.
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It seems that Russia has to do very little to win this one. If these recent developments are any indication, a mass invasion will not be necessary. A covert onie will suffice. Assuming resistance is a lost cause, where will the line be drawn on the map on what will become Russia and what remains Ukraine?
I do not know, guys, what kind of news you are reading to have such conclusions.
First thing, Russia has been and still doing a lot to win this. Russian military personal is operating on territory of Ukraine. They rolling out exactly same scenario as was in Crimea, the only difference is in Crimea they had heavy machinery/equipment on territory and that what they didn't had on territory was possible to bring in through Russian military bases located in Crimea. In order to roll in heavy machinery/equipment on mainland of Ukraine they need bloodshed of civil population (aka excuse to intervene) and that is one of the tasks of russian military units on territory of Ukraine. There is enough evidence of Russian troops involvement, plans, orders and from what level orders coming through. Also including evidence that these plans and actions to accomplish these plans going back to last year. Basically mass invasion is too late to prevent.
So far for sure known that Russia is after Kharkiv, Luhanks, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Dnipropetrovsk, Kherson, Mykovayiv, Odessa as well as Transnistria.
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They rolling out exactly same scenario as was in Crimea,
Yes, but this time Ukraine is fighting back and Ukraine is not looking good.
I do not know, guys, what kind of news you are reading to have such conclusions.
Well trained Ukrainian commandos should easily beat rag tag groups of militia men. Maybe the commandos are actually fighting against well trained Russian soldiers?
Why does the militia need to wear face masks? Who's supplying these brand new masks? Maybe they don't want family and friends back home in Russia to recognize them?
Russia has been and still doing a lot to win this. Russian military personal is operating on territory of Ukraine.
MOST people can agree on that. East Ukraine was relatively calm until a week ago when Russia backed and supplied pro Russian Ukrainians. Unfortunately Russia is promoting a civil war. Russia will supply pro Russian Ukrainians with arms and so far no Western nation has committed to supplying West Ukrainians with arms as they believe they will provoke Russia into doing something bad. I think many west Ukrainians have to die in a civil war before America or Europe will send them weapons. If America or Europe doesn't send west Ukrainians weapons at all, that means they value Russia's business more than your freedom.
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New twist ...
Kolomoysky set reward for the capture of Russian saboteurs 10 000 $ for each 1 000 $ per automat
Deputy governor of the Dnepropetrovsk region Boris Filatov proposed new methods of fighting terrorists .
This he wrote in his Facebook transmits Tsenzor.NET .
He noted: First division special battalion "Dnepr" formed and ready to perform combat missions. Roadblocks are set.
Filatov continued: " I thought a lot about the events in Donetsk and Lugansk. Conclusion - this is a revolution of poverty. A revolt of tired, desperate and unheard by those who in power people. Yanukovich's call, plunged our fellow citizens into the depths of despair and today provokes them into separatism, distributing money stolen from people and promising future as part of a hostile neighboring state.
He appealed to the people of Donbass : " Our Russian-speaking brothers from Donbass. Confused. With lost guidelines. Those who have bought into the sweet promises of scoundrels. We have an offer. For each returned gun - paid remuneration for automat $ 1,000; machine gun - $ 1500; a grenade launcher - $ 2,000 .
For each "green man", he is a mercenary that walked into our common ground and trying to push us in the fratricidal war - a fee of $ 10,000. For each freed building handed over to local authorities and under the protection of spetsroty "Donbass" battalion "Dnepr" - a reward of $ 200,000 (and in the territorial community remains free right of access at any time)
http://censor.net.ua/news/281450/kolomoyiskiyi_ustanovil_nagradu_za_poimku_rossiyiskih_diversantov_10_000_ue_za_kajdogo_i_1_000_ue_za
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Unfortunately, a whole new can of worms, MissA.
Bounty mercenary trade. The prospect for the average Ukrainian gets uglier by the day. This is indicative of a leaderless chaotic state.
:(
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I can understand the feeling of many with a short-term outlook to reunite with Russia, even though over the long term I consider it ill-advised.
I want to come back to this because it got me thinking some more. The average Russian makes three times the income of the average Ukrainian. It wouldn't be smart for Russia to annex Ukraine and raise their standard of living to that of Russians. If Russia annexes Ukraine, they may then cut them off to allow them to become their own nation again or Russia may encourage a civil war without annexing. Either way, it's important for Russia to place another puppet president that allows Russia to enjoy favorable business dealings with Ukraine. Ukraine will continue to have a low standard of living while Russia will continue to enjoy a higher standard of living.
Most ex Soviet bloc nations that's free from Russian influence have higher average incomes per person than Russia. I'm sure that is on the minds of many Ukrainians. Most think adopting a western style economy is better than doing business under Russia.
MissAmeno! I'm sure you have faith in the Ukrainian soldier. I'm sure they'll fight hard against foreign invaders but against their own people, many soldiers will hesitate, quit, or even switch sides. Putin knows this and will try a civil war in Ukraine before allowing Russians to die. I recently read an article where a Ukrainian colonel and his troops gave up their firing pins from their weapons to militia men. I suspect more incidences like this when soldiers are asked to confront citizens or perform operations against militia that compromises the lives of citizens.
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I can see one making the argument that Russia has been fomenting or that the rebellion in E. Ukraine isn't genuine....but now even the supposedly loyal troops are refusing their orders...and I see quotes like this one:
"It was a mistake to launch an 'anti-terrorist operation' in the Donbass where the overwhelming majority is against the government.[/size] [/i][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]
[/size]That sure flies in the face of what some have been saying here about it only being a bunch of Russians coming over the border and stirring up trouble. The division appears genuine and I can see more how Ukraine becoming a Federation as being on the table as a reasonable solution. Allowing for more autonomy in these regions could benefit all sides and prevent too much more blood being spilled. [size=78%]
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-armys-humiliations-pile-eastern-push-fizzles-211406122.html (http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-armys-humiliations-pile-eastern-push-fizzles-211406122.html)
[/size]Fathertime! [size=78%][/size] [size=78%]
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I do not know, guys, what kind of news you are reading to have such conclusions.
In the US we have a multitude of news sources so that you can always find whatever point of view suits your view.
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the supposedly loyal troops are refusing their orders...
The loyal troops are supposed to be loyal to Ukrainian citizens. The troops couldn't fire upon citizens when Yanukovych was president and they would have a difficult time doing that if the new government ordered them to do so. I seen some photographs of citizens blocking the path of armored vehicles. What are the troops supposed to do? They aren't going to run citizens over in order to chase the militia/Russian soldiers.
I can see one making the argument that Russia has been fomenting ......rebellion in E. Ukraine....
It's not people's opinion anymore, it's reality after Putin spoke last night. Putin wants east Ukraine. He never planned on stopping in Crimea. Putin said God only knows why east Ukraine was allowed to be part of Ukraine in 1920 and referred to that area as the "New Russia" many times during Q & A on Russian television. When asked "why?" Soviet leaders gave Ukraine those territories, Putin replied "May God judge them.” Putin also said the parliament has given him the right to use force in Ukraine. He's got the green light and light sanctions aren't going to stop him. Hopefully Obama can get smarter faster while he's learning foreign policy on the job.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/18/world/europe/russia-ukraine.html?_r=0
Putin also change course and admitted for the first time Russian troops were in Crimea in unmarked uniforms before their election. There's no doubt in my mind Putin wants east Ukraine and has unmarked and masked troops there to destabilize the region and prop up pro Russian supporters. This is straight out of the Communist textbook on how to get things done destabilizing them first and then bring them within their influence. Hitler doesn't get all the credit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-changes-course-admits-russian-troops-were-in-crimea-before-vote/2014/04/17/b3300a54-c617-11e3-bf7a-be01a9b69cf1_story.html
Putin's popularity hovers around 80%. Most Russian's approve of Putin's actions even if people got to die when getting it done.
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In the US we have a multitude of news sources so that you can always find whatever point of view suits your view.
...and there never was a time in the US that it was more evident than during the 2008 / 2012 presidential election. :rolleyes: I'm already reminiscing for those good ol' Kool-aid years...
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Hey billyb,
It would appear to me and based on reports I read that a large percentage of east Ukrainians in these cities are in support of the pro russians. Russia has still not invaded.
From my perspective, US arming or over involvement will only create more bloodshed. It would appear parts of Ukraine would be good with more autonomy without being forced to follow mandates from Kiev that they are adamantly opposed to.
It also appears the troops are very quick to change which flag they fly when they actually get into these areas.
Fathertime!
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(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/dickhead_zpsa6374631.jpg)
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(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/dickhead_zpsa6374631.jpg)
Nice self-portrait! I might suggest you let your hair grow out or wear a hat.
Fathertime!
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It would appear parts of Ukraine would be good with more autonomy without being forced to follow mandates from Kiev that they are adamantly opposed to.
The current Prime Minister of Ukraine has promised all regions of Ukraine autonomy BEFORE Russia stuck it's nose in Ukraine's business. Autonomy is not the issue here. Russia wants Ukraine in a land grab. They will prop up pro Russian leaders and hold an election where the ballot is written by Putin just as done in Crimea. If it works, east Ukraine will follow Crimea, if it doesn't work, Putin has stated he has permission from his parliament and he has the right to use Russian troops in Ukraine to pursue it's interests.
You've said Putin will stop at Crimea. If that is true, Putin should've told east Ukrainians a long time ago "don't kill your fellow citizens over me. Join in Ukraine's elections next month speak your mind through the vote there, not by guns. I will not annex you." Many lives can be saved if Putin says that but Putin wants east Ukraine if not all. Last night, on Russian tv, he constantly referred to east Ukraine as "New Russia." Like most people, I wished you were right. When will you believe Putin wants more than Crimea? Obama should've taken firmer steps in preventing Russia from entering east Ukraine. Obama has said without a doubt, Russia is in there causing problems but haven't issued out any new sanctions while continuing to make threats there will be additional costs. The cost of the land grab when Russia is finished is going to turn out to be a bargain.
America allows States to have a certain level of autonomy. It's wise for every nation to allow regions to have autonomy because not all people believe in the same things or what to do things the same way but just because everybody has different ways of living life, it's wrong and illegal according nations constitutions to split nations into pieces. Lot's of people have to die in a civil war before the international community accepts a legal split of a nation.
From my perspective, US arming or over involvement will only create more bloodshed.
I think the violence and the blood that's currently shed and soon to be shed was because America and Europe didn't do enough. Our weakness and rejection of Ukrainian calls for weapons has encouraged Putin to go for more. If Obama joined in Putin's call to protect ethnic Russians after the revolution and sent American troops there to protect citizens, that is the only thing Putin will not confront. Obama could've had Putin in checkmate from the beginning.
By not arming west Ukrainians it will most certainly save the lives of east Ukrainians that are armed by Russia but will result in more deaths of the out gunned west Ukrainians in the event of the civil war. Also, by not arming west Ukrainians, it allows Putin to believe we will accept his actions because we care less about the situation than he does. Who wants it more is what matters. West Ukrainians moral has to be dropping since the West seems hesitant to help them achieve a fair fight against Russian backed east Ukrainians. Russia will weather the sanctions and in less than 10 years Putin knows America and Europe will forget and forgive and get back to business with them.
In other news Jews are now required to register themselves and their property or risk getting kicked out of the country and having their property confiscated in east Ukraine New Russia. New management has already made the attempt to make New Russia a friendlier place to live free of discrimination. :rolleyes:
http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/jews-ordered-to-register-in-east-ukraine-very-serious-crisis-developing-evocative-of-the-1930s/
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Well Billyb, it seems to me aggressive action to arm w. Ukrainians would have been a disaster. I don't think any outside country really is interested enough to participate in a war with Russia over an area where there is significant Russian support to begin with.
To this point it appears to me the eastern regions were not autonomous enough to their liking. Russia did invade crimea and I continue tO Believe that was the extent of their invasion plans. Now if parts of e. Ukraine are so opposed to what is going on un Kiev and want more autonomy I think that is not unreasonable. I don't even know if it is unreasonable for certain parts to join Russia if it were possible to have a honest election. By looking at the prior elections by region it appears the nation suffers from quite a divide. The nation has not been a model of success so adhering themselves to Russia may appear to them as a good option, when compared to continuing to otherwise languish. What do you think?
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Fathertime!
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(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/dickhead_zpsa6374631.jpg)
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Didn't you see pretty boy's post? Some of us curmudgeons need to be pushed back.
And then his date is more than happy to oblige. They are just like the person they idolize: Putler.
They are going to give their version and the rest be damned.
Either by passive-aggressive means or just plain ridicule.
Heh
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(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/dickhead_zpsa6374631.jpg)
We gotta get poor muzh to a fashion consultant...perhaps he would look a little better from another angle.
Fathertime!
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it seems to me aggressive action to arm w. Ukrainians would have been a disaster.
Is east Ukrainians that are getting armed by Russia to fight west Ukrainians a disaster too? The west wants to keep their country in one piece and defend themselves from Russian backed invasion/civil war. They do not consider it a disaster if America helps them. That is their choice and consider it a disaster if nobody arms them. They knew Crimea wasn't the only thing Putin wanted. Remember months ago Putin said he doesn't want to see Ukraine split? A guy can read that anyway he wants but I read it as Putin will collect Ukraine in pieces until it's whole again.
There's some good news from today's meeting. It's been reported that there is an agreement to de-escalate the crisis from all parties. It calls for the disarming of all illegally armed groups and for control of buildings seized by pro-Russian separatists to be turned back to authorities. I assume Russia's role in this will be to disarm the illegally armed groups and give back the government buildings to the Ukrainian authorities. America has agreed to suspend additional sanctions if there was no agreement. All sides must refrain from violence, intimidation or provocative actions.
Fathertime, you may be right that in the end that Russia will move no further than Crimea. I can't help believing Putin is buying time and has another trick up his sleeve. Putin's talk to his people last night was 180 degrees opposite than this agreement. Was he lying to his people in order to gain more leverage at the meeting or is he lying to us about honoring the agreement? One thing that's certain is that he's lying.
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Hey billyb,
It would appear to me and based on reports I read that a large percentage of east Ukrainians in these cities are in support of the pro russians. Russia has still not invaded.
From my perspective, US arming or over involvement will only create more bloodshed. It would appear parts of Ukraine would be good with more autonomy without being forced to follow mandates from Kiev that they are adamantly opposed to.
It also appears the troops are very quick to change which flag they fly when they actually get into these areas.
Fathertime!
FT, that sounds like a great way to keep a country together. In fact, why don't we do that in the U.S.? Hardly any of the states in the South voted for Obama. Those states should be allow complete autonomy and not follow any mandates from Washington D.C.. There's Texas who actually all along is a sovereign country. They shouldn't have to follow those pesky Washington edicts either. Why not just forget we even have a Washington D.C. or a United States. Each state should have complete autonomy to join Russia, Mexico or Guyana if they chose. Yeah! Great logic there guy :rolleyes:
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So it seems that Putin is telling his vassals to go home and stop the
provocations insurrection in eastern Ukraine.
Questions are:
Is he for real?
Will the lackeys oblige? If they do, would they feel betrayed?
Or is he buying time?
Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/west-and-russia-agree-on-steps-to-ease-ukraine-tensions/498329.html)
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FT, that sounds like a great way to keep a country together. In fact, why don't we do that in the U.S.? Hardly any of the states in the South voted for Obama. Those states should be allow complete autonomy and not follow any mandates from Washington D.C.. There's Texas who actually all along is a sovereign country. They shouldn't have to follow those pesky Washington edicts either. Why not just forget we even have a Washington D.C. or a United States. Each state should have complete autonomy to join Russia, Mexico or Guyana if they chose. Yeah! Great logic there guy :rolleyes:
Must be that chunk of meat in the front and back of his head.
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Hey Billyb, it seems to me that Russia has some involvement in E Ukraine. I can see why they have real interests in the area. I think the USA going in and potentially arming others would be mainly to thwart Russian interests, as I dont see the critical interests for us. I don't see that as a good enough reason for us to get involved. I also believe Russia would escalate and things would wind up worse.
It does appear that there is headway being made through negotiations which I feel is a good route to take. If ultimately Russia has influence ( not complete control) in certain regions and the people are generally ok with it, then that is ok by me.
Fathertime!
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FT, that sounds like a great way to keep a country together. In fact, why don't we do that in the U.S.? Hardly any of the states in the South voted for Obama. Those states should be allow complete autonomy and not follow any mandates from Washington D.C.. There's Texas who actually all along is a sovereign country. They shouldn't have to follow those pesky Washington edicts either. Why not just forget we even have a Washington D.C. or a United States. Each state should have complete autonomy to join Russia, Mexico or Guyana if they chose. Yeah! Great logic there guy :rolleyes:
fp
you are commenting on my logic unfairly. In my opinion it comes down to degree by bringing the USA in and comparing it to Ukraine and then attributing that comparison as if that was mine. Our divisions and country are very different than Ukraine. Or am I to take it that you don't see the difference guy?
Fathertime!
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Must be that chunk of meat in the front and back of his head.
You have shown your self-portrait and it appears to me that it is you that has the chunks of extra flesh. My portrait is my avatar.
Fathertime!
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fp
you are commenting on my logic unfairly. In my opinion it comes down to degree by bringing the USA in and comparing it to Ukraine and then attributing that comparison as if that was mine. Our divisions and country are very different than Ukraine. Or am I to take it that you don't see the difference guy?
Fathertime!
No, I don't see the difference FT, there isn't any. You wish to apply that logic because it's Ukraine (not involving you) but don't wish to apply to yourself and the U.S.. It is the same thing. Ukraine is in political upheaval but, that is no reason to slice and dice the country or wave dismissively when someone else does. Ukraine borders should be respected, even by Russia. If Russia is so concerned about her *cough* citizens in Ukraine, they should evacuate them rather than annex/invade the sovereign lands of another country or foment unrest leading to civil war. Yes, the same rule of law applies to you as it does there. Thus, be careful what you ask for or ignore.
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No, I don't see the difference FT, there isn't any. You wish to apply that logic because it's Ukraine (not involving you) but don't wish to apply to yourself and the U.S.. It is the same thing. Ukraine is in political upheaval but, that is no reason to slice and dice the country or wave dismissively when someone else does. Ukraine borders should be respected, even by Russia. If Russia is so concerned about her *cough* citizens in Ukraine, they should evacuate them rather than annex/invade the sovereign lands of another country or foment unrest leading to civil war. Yes, the same rule of law applies to you as it does there. Thus, be careful what you ask for or ignore.
+100
Also, we should be clear on Putin's statements. Putin's excuse to invade Crimea was not to protect Russian citizens. It was to 'protect' Russian speaking Ukrainians.
Just got an update from wife. The banks are still closed in Crimea. Crimeans have no access to currency. New Russian courts and rule of law is not yet in place in Crimea. Many Ukrainians living in Crimea cannot get pensions without Russian passport. Russia is not issuing passports to them. Mail not working to Crimea. Government offices not at work in Crimea. Cannot file any legal documents in Crimea courts....there are no courts. People are in panic!
Putler has a done a great job for the people of Crimea that he promised a dream to vote for Russia! NOT!
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No, I don't see the difference FT, there isn't any. You wish to apply that logic because it's Ukraine (not involving you) but don't wish to apply to yourself and the U.S.. It is the same thing.
You are stating (as fact) reasons that see things differently than you. You are incorrect in doing that.
I do see a difference when you look at the ENTIRE playing field. I still see differences between Ukraine and the USA, and with those differences I see a case to be made to allow for more independence of certain regions of E. Ukraine.
If the USA was in a different position and certain states wanted to leave the union that would have to be looked at seriously.
. Ukraine is in political upheaval but, that is no reason to slice and dice the country or wave dismissively when someone else does. Ukraine borders should be respected, even by Russia. If Russia is so concerned about her *cough* citizens in Ukraine, they should evacuate them rather than annex/invade the sovereign lands of another country or foment unrest leading to civil war. Yes, the same rule of law applies to you as it does there. Thus, be careful what you ask for or ignore.
I don't believe the main reason Russia is likely fomenting is because of the Russian speakers. I believe they are attempting to keep a pro-Russia buffer region. The West and Russia disagree about a lot of things and are on opposite sides of the fence, and I think Russia has decided that they sure as hell aren't going to have another western influenced country on their doorstep. As it turns out it is possible that a majority of people in this part of the country are supportive of this for their own reasons. I see how Russia can retain some influence while most of the people get what they want too. It is imperfect but so are most things. Since I'm willing to hear and extrapolate what I think are Russia's reasons for doing what they are doing. They have not outright invaded E. Ukraine as they have retained enough influence from within to make some noise.
I've decided that to this point what Russia has done is not unreasonable in terms of world balance. I realize others do, which is fine of course. I also realize that not every single individual does well because of what is happening, some die, some are displaced, some are unhappy. But as you well know nobody has promised us a rose garden. I'm thankful I'm not in that region and I'm thankful that we haven't attempted to counter Russia thus far.
Fathertime!
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The average Russian makes three times the income of the average Ukrainian. It wouldn't be smart for Russia to annex Ukraine and raise their standard of living to that of Russians.
Take Moscow and a few large cities out of the equation and those tied to the oil and gas average, and that average Russian wage would go down quite a bit. The relevant point of comparison would be to compare the average wage of Russians in Voronezh and other such cities to those in Ukraine.
Pensions would go up, but the question is how Russia will be able to keep adding new pensioners to the mix without putting undue pressure on the entire Russian pension system...
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Take Moscow and a few large cities out of the equation and those tied to the oil and gas average, and that average Russian wage would go down quite a bit. The relevant point of comparison would be to compare the average wage of Russians in Voronezh and other such cities to those in Ukraine.
Pensions would go up, but the question is how Russia will be able to keep adding new pensioners to the mix without putting undue pressure on the entire Russian pension system...
Good points Misha
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Take Moscow and a few large cities out of the equation and those tied to the oil and gas average, and that average Russian wage would go down quite a bit. The relevant point of comparison would be to compare the average wage of Russians in Voronezh and other such cities to those in Ukraine.
Pensions would go up, but the question is how Russia will be able to keep adding new pensioners to the mix without putting undue pressure on the entire Russian pension system...
My MIL's Russian school teacher's pension equates to $260 bucks a month. My SIL who was recently forced to retire at 55 from a Western salary position the gas industry equates to $400 a month. FWIW
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You are stating (as fact) reasons that see things differently than you. You are incorrect in doing that.
I have no idea FT what you are trying to say here.
I do see a difference when you look at the ENTIRE playing field. I still see differences between Ukraine and the USA, and with those differences I see a case to be made to allow for more independence of certain regions of E. Ukraine.
If the USA was in a different position and certain states wanted to leave the union that would have to be looked at seriously.
Entire playing field? WTF? What differences and why would they apply? Why would the U.S. borders be any different from Ukraine's borders? Because U.S. is a wealthy nation and Ukraine is a poor one?
Brighton Beach in NYC is full of Russian speaking U.S. citizens. Does that make it acceptable to you that it is then "okay" for Putin to invade Brighton Beach?
I don't believe the main reason Russia is likely fomenting is because of the Russian speakers. I believe they are attempting to keep a pro-Russia buffer region. The West and Russia disagree about a lot of things and are on opposite sides of the fence, and I think Russia has decided that they sure as hell aren't going to have another western influenced country on their doorstep. As it turns out it is possible that a majority of people in this part of the country are supportive of this for their own reasons. I see how Russia can retain some influence while most of the people get what they want too. It is imperfect but so are most things. Since I'm willing to hear and extrapolate what I think are Russia's reasons for doing what they are doing. They have not outright invaded E. Ukraine as they have retained enough influence from within to make some noise.
I've decided that to this point what Russia has done is not unreasonable in terms of world balance. I realize others do, which is fine of course.
FT, you just keep going back to your circular logic. "Ukraine just has to take it in the ass because Russia feels threatened by the West" "Russia has invaded annexed against it's will part of a sovereign nation and this is "not unreasonable" in terms of "world balance"? Just Wow!
I also realize that not every single individual does well because of what is happening, some die, some are displaced, some are unhappy. But as you well know nobody has promised us a rose garden. I'm thankful I'm not in that region and I'm thankful that we haven't attempted to counter Russia thus far.
FWIW FT, I don't believe the U.S. has any dog in that hunt, either. But, I do not justify that by declaring Russia has full right to invade/agitate/foment/annex another country because it is "uneasy" and needs a pro Russian neighbor in Ukraine. That is bullshit. When the majority of U.S. begins to think as you do you won't have to worry about you being in "that region". That region will be coming to you
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I have no idea FT what you are trying to say here.
FP, I'll try to explain it to you.
First, the man has no interest in the former Soyuz since his spouse is from South America. However, he comes to a forum that caters to relationships between Western men and women from the former soyuz.
Then he appoints himself as the paladin of the truth in this forum and will "push back" those he considers unworthy of his knowledge.
So how he does this? Like a child being unhappy with his parents. He goes on this passive-aggressive rant looking for issues that will push the buttons of those with interests in the region.
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Take Moscow and a few large cities out of the equation and those tied to the oil and gas average, and that average Russian wage would go down quite a bit. The relevant point of comparison would be to compare the average wage of Russians in Voronezh and other such cities to those in Ukraine.
I was comparing country vs. country. If Moscow and all Russian oligarchs are taken out of the equation, we need to take Kiev and Ukrainian oligarchs out of the equation too. The average Russian makes 3 times the income of the average Ukrainian. I'd bet the average Moscovite makes 3 times the income of those living in Kiev. I'm willing to bet the Russian oligarch is on average 3 times richer than his Ukrainian counterpart.
Bottom line is many Ukrainians would love to make the income of those living in the Baltics, Poland and Czech Republic. It's unrealistic for them to make what Russians make under the previous program. To get to where other ex soviet bloc nations are, they need to make changes in their government and change direction of the country.
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The average Russian makes 3 times the income of the average Ukrainian. I'd bet the average Moscovite makes 3 times the income of those living in Kiev. I'm willing to bet the Russian oligarch is on average 3 times richer than his Ukrainian counterpart.
Let's take two comparable regions: the Voronezh region and the city of Donetsk.
In the Voronezh region, the average salary is a bit more than 21,000 rubles in the latter half of 2013. This works our to roughly a bit less that $600 US.
In Donetsk, the average salage is a bit more than 4,000 griven, and this works out to a bit more than $360.
Do they earn more in Russia? Yes. Is it three times more than comparable regions in Ukraine? No. It is short of even twice as much.
And, this in spite of the fact that hundreds of billions of dollars poured into Russia thanks to the sale of oil, gas and other natural resources. What would it be like if oil prices dropped or if oil and gas production were to go down?
Sources: [size=78%]http://www.infovoronezh.ru/News/Srednyaya-zarplata-v-Voronejskoy-oblasti---bolee-21-tyisyachi-rubley-20402.html (http://www.infovoronezh.ru/News/Srednyaya-zarplata-v-Voronejskoy-oblasti---bolee-21-tyisyachi-rubley-20402.html)[/size] and [/size][size=78%]http://www.62.ua/news/463126 (http://www.62.ua/news/463126)[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]
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I have no idea FT what you are trying to say here.
it looks like i left a word or two out accidentally...it isn't really important though.
Entire playing field? WTF? What differences and why would they apply? Why would the U.S. borders be any different from Ukraine's borders? Because U.S. is a wealthy nation and Ukraine is a poor one?
Brighton Beach in NYC is full of Russian speaking U.S. citizens. Does that make it acceptable to you that it is then "okay" for Putin to invade Brighton Beach?
FT, you just keep going back to your circular logic. "Ukraine just has to take it in the ass because Russia feels threatened by the West" "Russia has invaded annexed against it's will part of a sovereign nation and this is "not unreasonable" in terms of "world balance"? Just Wow!
FWIW FT, I don't believe the U.S. has any dog in that hunt, either. But, I do not justify that by declaring Russia has full right to invade/agitate/foment/annex another country because it is "uneasy" and needs a pro Russian neighbor in Ukraine. That is bullshit. When the majority of U.S. begins to think as you do you won't have to worry about you being in "that region". That region will be coming to you
Hey FP...I think I have SOME understanding of the RUssian position regarding the recent events...
We (The USA) have been guilty of some misdeeds and even assassinated a pro Russian leader...we didn't actually assassinate him, we just killed all the people around him, so the rebel forces could stick a bayonet up his rear end.. I guess RUssia has decided they are going to also raise hell where they have the upper hand. Had we not been doing these sort of things ourselves I would have been outraged by what I see is happening in Ukraine.. I showed extreme outrage for at the time we started bombing and threatening other countries, and still do. Russia is now embarking on their own campaign. I'm not saying Russia has a right to encourage rebellion in another country, but they are doing it anyway, just as we have. We have our 'civilized' ways of doing it, and Russia has its way...I don't see a difference...I really don't. So yes, although I'm not supportive what is happening. I do accept it to a point, not because I want to, but because it would be hypocritical of someone here in the USA after what has been done in our names not to be. . I understand that others don't accept it, and that is fine.
No Ukraine doesn't have to take it "Up the Ass"...they can fight it...Just as other countries have fought the USA, if they choose to. It appears that quite a lot Ukrainians aren't though.
Fathertime!
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FP, I'll try to explain it to you.
First, the man has no interest in the former Soyuz since his spouse is from South America. However, he comes to a forum that caters to relationships between Western men and women from the former soyuz.
Then he appoints himself as the paladin of the truth in this forum and will "push back" those he considers unworthy of his knowledge.
So how he does this? Like a child being unhappy with his parents. He goes on this passive-aggressive rant looking for issues that will push the buttons of those with interests in the region.
What no more self-portraits?
I'll try to bring this post down to your lower level so you can understand best.
I believe you are just angry because you read the entire situation entirely wrong from the start. Meanwhile I politely posted what I believed was happening. To this point I've been closer to correct than you. :)
You fancy yourself as a 'wise expert' but really you have behaved like a whiny fool. I'm delighted my presence here has rocked your boat! You can continue to count on 'push back' when I disagree with an opinion, and you try to act like a know-it-all while attempting to denigrate others in the process.
Fathertime!
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it looks like i left a word or two out accidentally...it isn't really important though.
Hey FP...I think I have SOME understanding of the RUssian position regarding the recent events...
We (The USA) have been guilty of some misdeeds and even assassinated a pro Russian leader...we didn't actually assassinate him, we just killed all the people around him, so the rebel forces could stick a bayonet up his rear end.. I guess RUssia has decided they are going to also raise hell where they have the upper hand. Had we not been doing these sort of things ourselves I would have been outraged by what I see is happening in Ukraine.. I showed extreme outrage for at the time we started bombing and threatening other countries, and still do. Russia is now embarking on their own campaign. I'm not saying Russia has a right to encourage rebellion in another country, but they are doing it anyway, just as we have. We have our 'civilized' ways of doing it, and Russia has its way...I don't see a difference...I really don't. So yes, although I'm not supportive what is happening. I do accept it to a point, not because I want to, but because it would be hypocritical of someone here in the USA after what has been done in our names not to be. . I understand that others don't accept it, and that is fine.
No Ukraine doesn't have to take it "Up the Ass"...they can fight it...Just as other countries have fought the USA, if they choose to. It appears that quite a lot Ukrainians aren't though.
Fathertime!
More flawed circular logic FT. We imported slaves and had a thriving slave trade in our history, does that make it okay for Russia to enslave the Ukrainians?
You are trying to "justify" Russia's Putin's actions based on what the U.S. has or hasn't done in the past. FYI, that is not what you "should" make the comparison based on. Instead, based Putin's actions as if Ukraine were the U.S. and he was doing to you and the U.S. what he is doing to Ukraine. How do you feel/see through that prism? Is it now okay and a win/win for the U.S. and Russia?
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Do they earn more in Russia? Yes. Is it three times more than comparable regions in Ukraine? No. It is short of even twice as much.
And, this in spite of the fact that hundreds of billions of dollars poured into Russia thanks to the sale of oil, gas and other natural resources. What would it be like if oil prices dropped or if oil and gas production were to go down?
Let's say for arguments sake you're 100% right and Russians don't make 3 times as much as Ukrainians especially if you take away Russia's oil and gas and Moscow. It's more reason for Ukrainians to adopt a Western style economy instead of using the Russian model. Poland, Czech Republic, and the Baltics don't have near the oil and gas Russia does yet the average income in those countries are more than in Russia.
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Fp, I do not agree that it is circular logic. I am not talking about slavery so I don't believe that comparison is relevant to this particular issue.
In explaining why Russia is doing what they are I feel that our past actions are at issue. We can bemoan what they are doing, but I'm not going to because I believe we had a role. I believe that we have been interfering way too much and this event is one of possibly a few consequences.
If I were in Ukraine I might not like what was happening..it would depend.
Fathertime!
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Fp, I do not agree that it is circular logic. I am not talking about slavery so I don't believe that comparison is relevant to this particular issue.
It is as relevant as anything else that the U.S. has done in justifying what Putin is doing.
In explaining why Russia is doing what they are I feel that our past actions are at issue. We can bemoan what they are doing, but I'm not going to because I believe we had a role. I believe that we have been interfering way too much and this event is one of possibly a few consequences.
If I were in Ukraine I might not like what was happening..it would depend.
Fathertime!
You are ignoring my question FT, if Putin were doing to the U.S. what he is doing to Ukraine from the Canadian border right now, would you be as accepting?
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It is as relevant as anything else that the U.S. has done in justifying what Putin is doing.
You are ignoring my question FT, if Putin were doing to the U.S. what he is doing to Ukraine from the Canadian border right now, would you be as accepting?
No I don't think bringing slavery into the discussion is worthwhile. It is a different issue.
I also don't think making up a hypothetical about Canada is an equal comparison because for one in worldwide terms the people here are doing great. That cant be said in Ukraine. Nevertheless to respond, at this time I am not for rebellion or big change so I wouldn't want Putin to bother with me...people of different areas or situations might feel differently.
Fathertime!
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One way to look at it is that we couldn’t hold our president to account for his transgressions in Libya, it didn’t matter what the public thought, he was going to do what he wanted to do….but Putin CAN hold our ‘representatives’ accountable, with consequences like doing some regime changing of his own (he hasn’t gone that far yet). In a recent question and answer session, Putin specifically called out our country. Russia had agreed to allow the UN to create a ‘no fly zone’ in Libya…after which we decided to go much further and start bombing and assassinating a foreign leader, which was not part of the agreement. While many in the US were chuckling about it, I thought it was a terrible thing for us to get involved in doing.
We have now given Russia the license to do the same sort of thing if they choose to. After all we are the ‘leaders of the free world’ so people follow our lead, so some believe. Of course we do these things for the sake of ‘liberating people’ and when Russia makes a move it is because they are ‘Hitler’ or ‘evil’…I just don’t buy it. As citizens of the USA we are accountable for what our ‘representatives’ have done, so we really don’t have any leg to stand on complaining when another country does something similar. Why is it that we feel we can have it both ways?
Of course this is only my opinion.
Fathertime!
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We have now given Russia the license to do the same sort of thing if they choose to. After all we are the ‘leaders of the free world’ so people follow our lead, so some believe. Of course we do these things for the sake of ‘liberating people’ and when Russia makes a move it is because they are ‘Hitler’ or ‘evil’…I just don’t buy it. As citizens of the USA we are accountable for what our ‘representatives’ have done, so we really don’t have any leg to stand on complaining when another country does something similar. Why is it that we feel we can have it both ways?
Of course this is only my opinion.
Fathertime!
And one I agree with as well. As in law, historical precedents count. In fact today it seems to be acceptable to do just about anything in the name of 'national security' not only at home but abroad as well. That other powerful countries can wield their swords as well with the same justification should not be a surprise nor deemed unacceptable.
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Which other countries have USA,Britain,etc recently invaded and stolen part of that countries land ..claiming it as their own ?
The Russian cheerleaders on here do talk some rubbish. :rolleyes:
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And one I agree with as well. As in law, historical precedents count. In fact today it seems to be acceptable to do just about anything in the name of 'national security' not only at home but abroad as well. That other powerful countries can wield their swords as well with the same justification should not be a surprise nor deemed unacceptable.
There is no comparison or precedent for Putin's move on Ukraine. Unless of course you want to reach back to Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait? Take away Russia's nukes and they are not a powerful country neither economically or militarily in fact, they are a very weak country
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There is no comparison or precedent for Putin's move on Ukraine.
In terms of annexation indeed. Iraq waged a full scale war against Kuwait with thousands of lives lost along with property and equipment damaged and destroyed. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea founded in 1991 seceded from Ukraine and joined Russia after a popular referendum, a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others.
As far as precedents such as meddling in political processes (funding and other political tools), sending 'military advisors' or special forces to assist one or other party in overt or covert manners, black ops, assassinations, even to the extent of starting conflicts from within and all out war for reasons of national security or other interests, RU is most certainly not alone.
Why does RU do such? Because it can despite objections from the US and/or others.
Why does the US do such? Because it can despite objections from RU and/or others.
My line of thought make sense now?
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In terms of annexation indeed. Iraq waged a full scale war against Kuwait with thousands of lives lost along with property and equipment damaged and destroyed. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea founded in 1991 seceded from Ukraine and joined Russia after a popular referendum, a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others.
:ROFL:
If you "need" to believe that, there's nothing I can say to you.
As far as precedents such as meddling in political processes (funding and other political tools), sending 'military advisors' or special forces to assist one or other party in overt or covert manners, black ops, assassinations, even to the extent of starting conflicts from within and all out war for reasons of national security or other interests, RU is most certainly not alone.
Why does RU do such? Because it can despite objections from the US and/or others.
Why does the US do such? Because it can despite objections from RU and/or others.
I don't disagree with this BC, many, many countries do this all the time and have throughout history. The U.S. and Russia being two of the biggest offenders in the last 70 years however, invading and stealing territory no, Russia and Iraq have that distinction.
My line of thought make sense now?
Ah, no
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There is no comparison or precedent for Putin's move on Ukraine. Unless of course you want to reach back to Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait?
I disagree with this statement, imo a comparison CAN be made. I don't see a very significant distinction between taking effective control of a govt using influence/financial pressures, among other things...and outright annexing it as Russia has done with Crimea. I don't see a significant difference between assassinating a foreign leader and many of the people around him, vs fomenting which it appears Russia is doing in Ukraine. Of course a US citizen (or anyone else) CAN say there is a big difference, but from Russia's perspective they don't agree, and I see their point.
As you said earlier, Russia is not a strong nation in many respects, but it does have some abilities. It may not be able to summon the financial pressures (yet) but obviously it can/will use what they do have.
Going forward, today I read that one of our US drones went and bombed and killed at least 15, as we deemed them terrorists in training. Now at some point down the road when other nations/groups get the technology/drones and start deeming our military advisers to be terrorists in training, and kill them, we will cry foul....and will have no leg to stand on....from their point of view we are terrorists.
Yeah I get the idea. But, I believe these are two separate and distinct things here as LFU mentioned. The hours and days after Benghazi the truth wasn't made available to be on the web. Being lied to and unable to find the truth aren't the same things. The same pertains to IRS scandal and the bevy of other lies this admin has purported
I've pulled this from a recent parallel thread to demonstrate another example of what I feel is selective reasoning and excuses. Presumably Russia is the liar and the USA is the nation that makes it near impossible to find the truth. You have insisted that doing this isn't the same thing. Well technically you are correct it isn't the same, but that doesn't make any difference other than being able to say "I didn't lie!". Either way the public doesn't get the correct information. I don't see a good reason to minimize the USA's fouled up actions while condemning another nation for their more obvious methods. Once again, we can't have it both ways and act like we are doing everybody a favor. Myself, I choose to be more focused on our own inconsistencies, and until we do better with them (if we ever choose to), I feel we should keep from whining about other countries methods. There is VERY little difference in my opinion.
[size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
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As citizens of the USA we are accountable for what our ‘representatives’ have done, so we really don’t have any leg to stand on complaining when another country does something similar. Why is it that we feel we can have it both ways?
One can replace "USA" with "Soviet Union/Russia" in what you wrote. After WWII, USA has been trying to stop Soviet advancement and undo what the Soviet Union has done and we're still not finished. Russia shouldn't be mad about losing something they should've never owned.
We have now given Russia the license to do the same sort of thing if they choose to.
Russia isn't exactly doing the same thing USA is doing. Old America did steal people's land. Present day USA doesn't steal land although we do get involved in regime changes against those that are hostile. I'm all for regime changes against those who'd end America's, friendly nations, and my existence. Ukraine wasn't hostile to Russia. They simply wanted to move in a new direction and Russia wasn't happy about it and now want their gifts back which legally belonged to Ukraine. Not only do they want their gifts back, they don't want Ukraine to move in another direction. How many guys know of a man who doesn't allow his weaker wife after a split to move about on her own free will? Is that right or wrong?
Some people, such as Putin, want to bring back the past to make an argument instead of using present day recognition of borders. How far back in history is Putin going to go in search for land that Russia once owned? He won't have to go too far back. After WWII Russia owned many countries. That is why Ukraine and eastern European NATO countries are in panic. Those countries are inviting America on their land and are rejecting Russia. That should be the biggest telling sign about the difference between Russia and America base on how most citizens and nations of the world view us.
Fathertime, although you believe Russia has more interest in that part of the world than America, the majority of citizens living there doesn't think so and are inviting America into their business. If they are our friends and we have the ability to help with their survival, we should be reliable friends not only because it's the right thing to do but someday we may need their help in our time of need. Obama needs to stop acting like a wimp thinking being strong is going to provoke Russia. He needs to speak out more that Russia is not going to steal more land and do something about it. "Land grab" is too nice of a term. Obama should call it for what it is.
In other news it seems pro Russian protestors aren't leaving the government buildings. USA is telling Russia to do more about it. I'm sure Russia will come back and say they don't have control over those people since they once claimed they never did have control, influence, and troops in Ukraine. My guess now is Russia is going to mess up the May 25 elections so they can say the new president is illegitimate based off the unrest in east Ukraine and the people there couldn't get to vote.
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One can replace "USA" with "Soviet Union/Russia" in what you wrote. After WWII, USA has been trying to stop Soviet advancement and undo what the Soviet Union has done and we're still not finished. Russia shouldn't be mad about losing something they should've never owned.
You are characterizing Russia as 'Mad'...Who said they are 'mad'?
Why is it OUR business to stop 'Russia advancement'? We could substitute in that Russia is trying to stop US advancement and would that be ok?
Russia isn't exactly doing the same thing USA is doing. Old America did steal people's land. Present day USA doesn't steal land although we do get involved in regime changes against those that are hostile.
well billyb it depends on what you call present day....Hawaii wasn't TOO long ago in the scheme of things, and that was blatant theft.
We may use different means nowadays, and not administering to the land/peoples after we reap it for the business interests and resources we want/need...but I still don't see why we grumble when other nations decide to follow suit in their own way. We have not been elected to dictate the rules for the planet. We have become aggressive and meddlesome in our own ways which in my opinion have opened the door for other nations to do the same thing. When China makes it's move at some point, we will be in a similar position that we are in now.
Fathertime!
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a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others.
If it was so democratic and the Russians were so convinced that the population supported them, why the rush? They could have waited until the end of May. Gave people a chance to discuss the options. Heck, they could have given the option of keeping the status quo. Then, they could have invited legitimate international observers by the busload to confirm that the elections were conducted fairly and openly...
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Fathertime, although you believe Russia has more interest in that part of the world than America, the majority of citizens living there doesn't think so and are inviting America into their business. If they are our friends and we have the ability to help with their survival, we should be reliable friends not only because it's the right thing to do but someday we may need their help in our time of need. Obama needs to stop acting like a wimp thinking being strong is going to provoke Russia. He needs to speak out more that Russia is not going to steal more land and do something about it. "Land grab" is too nice of a term. Obama should call it for what it is.
Hey Billyb,
I don't know about that one...I'm sure that a lot of Ukrainians want US protection, but I don't know that fact equates to them inviting us in to make profits at their expense.
I really think Obama is correct in how he is handing this for the most part...if the USA does act in a strong way militarily in Russia's backyard I believe Russia will respond with a lot of force...This is not the time or place IMO... To this point Russia has not invaded E. Ukraine so letting things play out and allowing Ukraine to form a federation doesn't seem unreasonable.
If Russia does choose to invade, I think it would be a dreadful mistake, that is one reason why I haven't thought that they will.
Fathertime!
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Why is it OUR business to stop 'Russia advancement'?
Every time an enemy advances, you lose a friend and your world becomes a deadlier place. Which scenario is better for any nation? Having America or the Soviet Union/Russia on their border? The choice is clear for most nations.
We could substitute in that Russia is trying to stop US advancement and would that be ok?
I don't see America advancing in this situation. America is helping countries regain their full independence since being taken over after WWII. Putin believes NATO is advancing on Russia but that's ridiculous. Russia should've never owned eastern Europe to be telling them who they can or can't join forces with.
I really think Obama is correct in how he is handing this for the most part...if the USA does act in a strong way militarily in Russia's backyard I believe Russia will respond with a lot of force...
We were nice guys during the crisis in Crimea slapping a few sanctions on Putin's buddies. Didn't work. Obama's handling of this is wrong because here we are again with an even bigger problem. Putin isn't dumb. He won't get into a fight he'd lose. I've dealt with Russian people before, mostly women, and strength is respected. Putin respects strength. One reason Putin is going slow in taking over Ukraine is because if there are too many deaths, America's military may get involved and that is the last thing he wants because it's the only thing he'll back off from.
To this point Russia has not invaded E. Ukraine so letting things play out and allowing Ukraine to form a federation doesn't seem unreasonable.
Things aren't going to play out on it's own since Russia is involved but even if it did play out on it's own, it's wrong for the country to be split apart. I can find pockets of Americans, who don't like America, that would love to take their land and create their own country. I can find Americans who would love to split their state in two because they never get their politicians elected. One half the state is red and the other blue but the majority of the population is on one side and the other side always feels left out after elections. People can be bitter everywhere including in America but it's no reason to tear the country apart.
If Ukraine was very successful under Russia's influence, I'd probably think the majority of Ukrainians were crazy for wanting to join the west. It's not only their right to make that choice, it's the smart thing to do.
You may accept a split Ukraine but the only way the international community will accept Ukraine splitting is if there is a very bloody war between east and west where it's better for east and west Ukrainians to live separate than together. Putin is trying to make that bloody war happen.
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Every time an enemy advances, you lose a friend and your world becomes a deadlier place. Which scenario is better for any nation? Having America or the Soviet Union/Russia on their border? The choice is clear for most nations.
I don't see America advancing in this situation. America is helping countries regain their full independence since being taken over after WWII. Putin believes NATO is advancing on Russia but that's ridiculous. Russia should've never owned eastern Europe to be telling them who they can or can't join forces with.
We were nice guys during the crisis in Crimea slapping a few sanctions on Putin's buddies. Didn't work. Obama's handling of this is wrong because here we are again with an even bigger problem. Putin isn't dumb. He won't get into a fight he'd lose. I've dealt with Russian people before, mostly women, and strength is respected. Putin respects strength. One reason Putin is going slow in taking over Ukraine is because if there are too many deaths, America's military may get involved and that is the last thing he wants because it's the only thing he'll back off from.
Things aren't going to play out on it's own since Russia is involved but even if it did play out on it's own, it's wrong for the country to be split apart. I can find pockets of Americans, who don't like America, that would love to take their land and create their own country. I can find Americans who would love to split their state in two because they never get their politicians elected. One half the state is red and the other blue but the majority of the population is on one side and the other side always feels left out after elections. People can be bitter everywhere including in America but it's no reason to tear the country apart.
If Ukraine was very successful under Russia's influence, I'd probably think the majority of Ukrainians were crazy for wanting to join the west. It's not only their right to make that choice, it's the smart thing to do.
You may accept a split Ukraine but the only way the international community will accept Ukraine splitting is if there is a very bloody war between east and west where it's better for east and west Ukrainians to live separate than together. Putin is trying to make that bloody war happen.
Hey billyb,
I can't respond as thoroughly as I might otherwise because i gotta roll outta town...but to address a couple of the highlighted points....
1. actually I see widespread bitterness as a valid reason to split up a country, I can't think of many better reasons actually...not saying that applies in this case...but just talking generally....relate it to a marriage...if partners are bitter, why the hell stay together...just to say you are married? sometimes going separate ways benefits everybody.
2. I don't think a federation is a split...I also don't think the international community has to 'accept' anything really...unless they are the ones coming in and fighting and making a war.
Hey bud have a good weekend/easter.
Fathertime!
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Which other countries have USA,Britain,etc recently invaded and stolen part of that countries land ..claiming it as their own ?
The Russian cheerleaders on here do talk some rubbish. :rolleyes:
Is it any better raping the land/oil and then leaving it in tatters, sans freedom, sans democracy (as in Afghanistan, Iraq)?
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I see widespread bitterness as a valid reason to split up a country,
There's bitterness but I think it's more related to how poorly the country was run than political differences. If the economy was doing as well as Poland's, I don't think we see all the hate we see now. West Ukraine holds the cards in the government now. I think it's best the west Ukrainians clear out all their current politicians which are probably corrupt too to show the east Ukrainians they are willing to rebuild the nation from the ground up when moving in a new direction. Without all new politicians, I see a much more difficult road moving in a new direction but it should be better than what Yanukovych did.
Hey bud have a good weekend/easter.
Have a good Easter too Fathertime.
Is it any better raping the land/oil and then leaving it in tatters, sans freedom, sans democracy (as in Afghanistan, Iraq)?
I just had dinner with an Iraqi friend of mine and his family a couple of days ago. His daughter, who lived in America since she was 2, just brought home a husband from Iraq. She lived in Iraq for 1 1/2 years before coming back and actually enjoyed living there more than in America. My friend is also considering returning to Iraq when retiring. They like Iraq now much more than when Saddam Insane was in charge. It's not as bad as you've heard and although not perfect, it's certainly better than in the past especially since citizens, not just Saddam, are enjoying the wealth their oil brings.
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We were nice guys during the crisis in Crimea slapping a few sanctions on Putin's buddies. Didn't work. Obama's handling of this is wrong because here we are again with an even bigger problem. Putin isn't dumb. He won't get into a fight he'd lose. I've dealt with Russian people before, mostly women, and strength is respected. Putin respects strength. One reason Putin is going slow in taking over Ukraine is because if there are too many deaths, America's military may get involved and that is the last thing he wants because it's the only thing he'll back off from.
Yes, he obviously isn't dumb but forget about any US involvement on UA ground or in UA airspace. MAD still has it's advantages.
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Which other countries have USA,Britain,etc recently invaded and stolen part of that countries land ..claiming it as their own ?
The Russian cheerleaders on here do talk some rubbish. :rolleyes:
LOL.
Well let's see...I bet an average Okinawan would love to let you about their love for the pesky US presence on their land. Then there is of course the Guamanians. They'll chat-up some sentiment about your statement. And since we're in the Big Ocean, there's the big 5-0. The general population of these islands would love nothing more than to have the same opportunity Crimeans exercised not too long ago.
Come September 2014, maybe the Scots can balance their finance and enjoy the same 'freedom' from the good kingdom your average Irish fought a bloody war for. Lastly, how's the weather at the Falkland Island these days? Any British bombing sorties in the near future on this island? You wouldn't want those pesky Argentinians claiming what belongs to them again, do you?
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I disagree with this statement, imo a comparison CAN be made. I don't see a very significant distinction between taking effective control of a govt using influence/financial pressures, among other things...and outright annexing it as Russia has done with Crimea. I don't see a significant difference between assassinating a foreign leader and many of the people around him, vs fomenting which it appears Russia is doing in Ukraine. Of course a US citizen (or anyone else) CAN say there is a big difference, but from Russia's perspective they don't agree, and I see their point.
As you said earlier, Russia is not a strong nation in many respects, but it does have some abilities. It may not be able to summon the financial pressures (yet) but obviously it can/will use what they do have.
Going forward, today I read that one of our US drones went and bombed and killed at least 15, as we deemed them terrorists in training. Now at some point down the road when other nations/groups get the technology/drones and start deeming our military advisers to be terrorists in training, and kill them, we will cry foul....and will have no leg to stand on....from their point of view we are terrorists.
Straw man argument um FT. Completely irerelevant but enjoy attacking it anyway
I've pulled this from a recent parallel thread to demonstrate another example of what I feel is selective reasoning and excuses. Presumably Russia is the liar and the USA is the nation that makes it near impossible to find the truth. You have insisted that doing this isn't the same thing. Well technically you are correct it isn't the same, but that doesn't make any difference other than being able to say "I didn't lie!". Either way the public doesn't get the correct information. I don't see a good reason to minimize the USA's fouled up actions while condemning another nation for their more obvious methods. Once again, we can't have it both ways and act like we are doing everybody a favor. Myself, I choose to be more focused on our own inconsistencies, and until we do better with them (if we ever choose to), I feel we should keep from whining about other countries methods. There is VERY little difference in my opinion.
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Fathertime! [/font]
Please FT, stay on topic. I ignored your last post to my previous one intentionally. You've lost any credibility with me of having any valid point. Honestly, you seem like a decent enough chap but, I'm not interested in any further debate with someone so completely intellectually dishonest with your faulty circular logic. I only see one of two reasons for that dishonesty. Your head is planted so far up your butt that you actually believe what you write. In that case, I don't know how you get your shoes tied in the mornings or, you just argue for the sake of argument and have no point to make.
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Difference is GQBlues..English troops,wearing no insigna,but leaping out of British attack Helicopters, won't go into Scotland wearing ski-masks and carrying AK-47'S to make sure the Scots vote to stay with Great Britain in their referendum...so we won't be invading their country and rigging the votes at gunpoint...with Cameron saying "we have no troops in Scotland" ..spot the difference ?
As for the Falklands I suggest you check your facts...the British have claimed sovereignity since 1690..before the Argies came on the scene ,and have exercised defacto sovereignity since 1833..without gifting them to Argentina,so exactly where is the recent invasion and land-grab by the Brits ?
The reality is Argentina tried a Russia style heist and failed.
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13 People die in U.S. drone attack in south Yemen
The bombings are still being carried out despite the Yemeni Parliament's ban last Dec. 15 on U.S. drones flying over its territory.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/04/19/13-people-die-in-us-drone-attack-in-south-yemen/
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The Autonomous Republic of Crimea founded in 1991 seceded from Ukraine and joined Russia after a popular referendum, a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others.
BC, democratic?!
Please explain the difference between Crimea and Chechnya, both involving Russia.
Please explain the difference between Crimea and the southern states that seceded from the USA in 1861.
There are many such examples.
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New twist ...
http://censor.net.ua/news/281450/kolomoyiskiyi_ustanovil_nagradu_za_poimku_rossiyiskih_diversantov_10_000_ue_za_kajdogo_i_1_000_ue_za
New twist ...
Quote
Kolomoysky set reward for the capture of Russian saboteurs 10 000 $ for each 1 000 $ per automat
Deputy governor of the Dnepropetrovsk region Boris Filatov proposed new methods of fighting terrorists .
This he wrote in his Facebook transmits Tsenzor.NET .
He noted: First division special battalion "Dnepr" formed and ready to perform combat missions. Roadblocks are set.
Filatov continued: " I thought a lot about the events in Donetsk and Lugansk. Conclusion - this is a revolution of poverty. A revolt of tired, desperate and unheard by those who in power people. Yanukovich's call, plunged our fellow citizens into the depths of despair and today provokes them into separatism, distributing money stolen from people and promising future as part of a hostile neighboring state.
He appealed to the people of Donbass : " Our Russian-speaking brothers from Donbass. Confused. With lost guidelines. Those who have bought into the sweet promises of scoundrels. We have an offer. For each returned gun - paid remuneration for automat $ 1,000; machine gun - $ 1500; a grenade launcher - $ 2,000 .
For each "green man", he is a mercenary that walked into our common ground and trying to push us in the fratricidal war - a fee of $ 10,000. For each freed building handed over to local authorities and under the protection of spetsroty "Donbass" battalion "Dnepr" - a reward of $ 200,000 (and in the territorial community remains free right of access at any time)
http://censor.net.ua/news/281450/kolomoyiskiyi_ustanovil_nagradu_za_poimku_rossiyiskih_diversantov_10_000_ue_za_kajdogo_i_1_000_ue_za
Now- Kolomoysky Shot Dead ?????
-http://www.e-news.in.ua/news/7891-srochno-dvoe-neizvestnyh-rastrelyali-mashinu-kolomoyskogo-kolomoyskiy-ubit-ranen-legko-ohrannik.html
Arrested one of the gunmen. From his words it was not for the sake of reward Ermek Taychibekova .
Journalist group UNNovosti not allowed at the scene, where the works team of investigators.
From such comments or law enforcement officers refrain, referring to the paragraph on the secrecy of the investigation.
As it became known, was arrested one of the gunmen.
According to eyewitnesses of the event that evolved as follows:
After the machine Kolomoyskogo and his guards parked at the curb, Igor V. showing arrogance and carelessness, without waiting for the safety, out of the car parked on the opposite side of the curb machine 2109 and the beginning of the movement drew level with him start shooting.
Shot both driver and passenger seat jumped from the second arrows.
After a few short bursts, the driver, apparently forgetting in a panic about his running mate, drove off at high speed.
Apparently not working professionals, which again confirmed by witnesses, observing the behavior of detention.
Second shooter loss, threw their arms and ran away, but just 150 yards and was caught by guards neutralized Kolomoyskogo.
Before the arrival of the police, he repeatedly shouted out that this act of his remuneration from spodviglo not Ermek Taychibekova, and these people do not have the right to live and to address issues of people and the state.
Added Later !!--
shot at point-blank machine Chairman of Dnipropetrovsk Regional State Administration Igor Kolomoisky! An hour ago, this sensational information appeared on the Internet and flew on social networks. http://www.e-news.in.ua/news/7891-srochno-dvoe-neizve .. Well, I think, Good Friday - and called Kolomoiskiy: "How can you comment on what you shot?" Kolomoysky: "Write this response:" Azohen Vey! " In general, do not be fooled: this is a new attack feykovye to spoil our Easter. Though can not surprising, what resources they throw the fact that social networks are constantly gale.
Perhaps a good rumour for Easter!! But then again-he is mere oligarch!!
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BC, democratic?!
Please explain the difference between Crimea and Chechnya, both involving Russia.
Please explain the difference between Crimea and the southern states that seceded from the USA in 1861.
There are many such examples.
Difference? Crimea was a rather peaceful secession. An autonomous region who's population overwhelmingly voted to secede and be integrated into RU.
What's the end game?
With secession of Crimea, the remaining part of UA lost about 4% of the pro-RU vote. If a referendum were to be undertaken today in UA RU would likely lose. Of course that is the impetus of Putin's and pro-RU Ukranian's quest to destabilize the remaining Donbass regions with a high pro-RU density, pushing for more autonomy, so they also might have an opportunity in the near future to align more with RU.
Surely it is of national interest and security to see that happen vs UA aligning more towards EU and the west. With the turmoil in UA it was simply the right time and place to do so. Stepping back one might even deem Putin's intent as prudent.
Would the US undertake similar measures if lets say Mexico wanted to realign themselves politically with another world power such as China? How would the US react to such a situation? Would all possible measures not be taken to impede such and provide political and strategic 'cover' for Mexico?
Remember also that the last thing EU wants to get involved with is a large scale military action. After all it also borders RU so sure it's easier for the US to raise the level of political tensions with RU with a protected geographic position, but again that is limited (thank goodness) by MAD. A war with RU, with either EU or US involvement is simply not feasible.
It's all about leverage.. and right now RU has the most weight on their side of the teeter totter.
Happy Easter All!
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Russian banks refute accusations of financing separatists in eastern Ukraine
It appears that the stealth invasion of eastern Ukraine is flush with cash. A Ukrainian soldier who had been captured by separatists near the town of Kramatorsk, in a video testimony released by the State Security Service, said he was offered Hr 3,500 per week if he switched sides and $400 to move his family immediately. He said similar offers were made to others.
Prosecutor General Oleh Makhnytskiy said to Channel 5 on April 16 that his office was investigating 14 banks for financing pro-Russian separatists in the east, including the big state-owned Russian bank Sberbank, which has some 900,000 clients in Ukraine and is Russia’s biggest lender.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russian-banks-refute-accusations-of-financing-terrorism-in-eastern-ukraine-344247.html
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Difference? Crimea was a rather peaceful secession. An autonomous region who's population overwhelmingly voted to secede and be integrated into RU.
What's the end game?
With secession of Crimea, the remaining part of UA lost about 4% of the pro-RU vote. If a referendum were to be undertaken today in UA RU would likely lose. Of course that is the impetus of Putin's and pro-RU Ukranian's quest to destabilize the remaining Donbass regions with a high pro-RU density, pushing for more autonomy, so they also might have an opportunity in the near future to align more with RU.
Surely it is of national interest and security to see that happen vs UA aligning more towards EU and the west. With the turmoil in UA it was simply the right time and place to do so. Stepping back one might even deem Putin's intent as prudent.
Would the US undertake similar measures if lets say Mexico wanted to realign themselves politically with another world power such as China? How would the US react to such a situation? Would all possible measures not be taken to impede such and provide political and strategic 'cover' for Mexico?
Remember also that the last thing EU wants to get involved with is a large scale military action. After all it also borders RU so sure it's easier for the US to raise the level of political tensions with RU with a protected geographic position, but again that is limited (thank goodness) by MAD. A war with RU, with either EU or US involvement is simply not feasible.
It's all about leverage.. and right now RU has the most weight on their side of the teeter totter.
Happy Easter All!
Peaceful? That would depend on who you asked. Succession? Hardly the description Ukraine would use. There is no democratic process with a rifle pointed at you. Have you ever voted under the guard of foreign troops ? :D
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Peaceful? That would depend on who you asked. Succession? Hardly the description Ukraine would use. There is no democratic process with a rifle pointed at you. Have you ever voted under the guard of foreign troops ? :D
Yes, peaceful.
Haven't heard of any riots or protests, no bombings, no killings, no mass exodus.
At first glance, the scene at the polling station at Simferopol's High School Number Nine looked little different to a routine local election in England. The queues outside the school were orderly, and there was no sign of intimidation. Nor, however, was there much in the way of real choice on the ballot paper.
Option one was to reunify with Russia. Option two was to declare de facto independence from the rest of Ukraine. Option three – to remain as part of Ukraine as before – did not have a box.
Organisers made a serious stab at making the vote seem fair. The ballot papers were trilingual, in Russian, Ukrainian, and Crimean Tatar. The Telegraph saw no direct evidence of coercion. And the press were mostly left free to roam in and out of polling stations.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10701676/Crimeans-vote-peacefully-in-referendum-but-have-little-choice.html
Yes, as the article also states there was media manipulation, pro Russian stations blocked, political ads on the street one sided. But heck.. even western media is twisted, tricked, spun, and outright lies.. I was in the US during the last presidential election and voted. The ads on TV were ridiculously false and misleading. Full tilt propaganda in the worst sense of the word. Some even went as far as to pull up all those little 'vote for Obama' flags that lined the roads and neighborhoods. Yes is still different but only a matter of degree with the same intent.
As I see it the population in Crimea have accepted the results and for me that's quite good enough.
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No killings BC ?
One Ukrainian has been killed by a pro-Russian separatist in Crimea..and an off-duty,unarmed Ukrainian officer has been killed by a Russian soldier in Crimea.
And that's just the ones we've heard about from an area now totally controlled by the Russian propaganda machine.
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Difference? Crimea was a rather peaceful secession. An autonomous region who's population overwhelmingly voted to secede and be integrated into RU.
I agree with you that a majority of Crimea citizens would vote for secession. The reasons are compelling:
1. Majority of Crimea population is ethnic Russian.
2. UA has done an incompetent job of governance over its 20 years of independence. Politics are unstable and the economy has regressed. Corruption remains pervasive and deeply rooted. Change has been attempted (Orange Revolution) yet failed. Why would the Euromaidan initiatives fare any better? For sure any forthcoming aid will require severe austerity measures.
3. In contrast, the RU politics are stable and the RU economy has progressed. A citizen would surely be grateful that RU would want them.
This still does not justify Russia violating a country's sovereignty, holding a rigged referendum at gunpoint, and violating territorial integrity? Sovereignty and territorial integrity should be considered sacred in a peaceful world.
Would the US undertake similar measures if lets say Mexico wanted to realign themselves politically with another world power such as China? How would the US react to such a situation? Would all possible measures not be taken to impede such and provide political and strategic 'cover' for Mexico?
:ROFL: Why not Canada and the US? I believe the US would welcome China funding economic development in Mexico. Better their money than ours. The end result would be less illegal immigration and a stronger trade partner. An entirely different matter would be massing Chinese military forces at our border. Has NATO massed troops in Latvia and Estonia at Russia's border. I assert that in Europe economic development takes precedent over military action .
It's all about leverage.. and right now RU has the most weight on their side of the teeter totter.
Ukraine did not defend its territory for good reason. The hopelessness and bloody consequences of standing up to Russia had already been demonstrated in Georgia in 2008. The secession of Crimea is thievery, nothing else, a powerful country stealing a prime asset from a weak country.
This has happened many times in world history. America did it to Mexico. It does not make it right. Europe has seen this too as the beginnings of WWII. You are the people who will be most affected by an unfettered Putin. Glad to know you see no future problems.
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No killings BC ?
One Ukrainian has been killed by a pro-Russian separatist in Crimea..and an off-duty,unarmed Ukrainian officer has been killed by a Russian soldier in Crimea.
And that's just the ones we've heard about from an area now totally controlled by the Russian propaganda machine.
Yeah should have said no mass killings or exodus..
Can't think of a more peaceful 'invasion' in modern times.. can you? Or was it even an invasion?..
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BC,
You did not answer my question about the inconsistency between Crimea and Chechnya.
A majority of Chechnya's population is Chechen, not Russian. Chechnya declared its independence in 1917. Russia invaded and retook it as part of the USSR in 1921. Soviet rule was not kind, with forms of Russification, confiscation of property, and even an act of genocide In 1991 with the Soviet collapse Chechnya again declared its independence. Again, Russia said "nyet - Russia's interests take precedence over the will of the local people." Years of bloody war followed with Moscow again prevailing.
BC, as a believer of Russian referenda, you will like this. Wiki: "In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia, but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout."
That is an amazing result for a people who have fought Russians for 150 years, declared their independence twice only to be crushed by Russians, and whose population had increased from 66% Chechen (25% Russian) in 1989 to 94% Chechen in 2002 (most Russians emigrated).
What is common about Chechnya and Ukraine? Not much other than Chechnya and Ukraine share one interesting factor: important Russian pipelines run through their territories.
BC, Putin's humanitarian concern for helping people implement their political wishes (and protecting them from Neonazis) must warm your heart.
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This still does not justify Russia violating a country's sovereignty, holding a rigged referendum at gunpoint, and violating territorial integrity? Sovereignty and territorial integrity should be considered sacred in a peaceful world.
.....
Glad to know you see no future problems.
Unfortunately it is not a peaceful world. Most of the wars going on don't make the headline news.. some not at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
Why then is this little scuffle so interesting? In the last 20 years has the US or EU taken great interest in UA unless it was about a gas problem? RU certainly has.. maybe badly but heck no one else really cared.
Over the last 20 years USAID has sent 1.8 billion to UA.. I'd love to see a graph of that over the years and think most of this amount was in the first 5 post USSR years.
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/usaid.html Read the link and decide what if any positive results were achieved.
Now all of a sudden they'll get a clean billion USD from US taxpayers and another billion EUR from EU. I'm not counting 15 billion in loans offered as they will have to be paid back... Surely if US and EU were really interested, much much more would have been done before or? But yeah.. since RU was footing the bill why worry.
No, I'm not worried one bit about RU waging war and trying to take over EU as it would make absolutely no sense at all. Neither is anyone else here. It seems only those across the Atlantic even bring this up.
Putin is taking care of a problem that no one else really gave a crap about.. until now. Some might not like his approach but heck.. is there anyone else really willing to step up to the bat and clean up UA?
JIMHO
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BC,
You did not answer my question about the inconsistency between Crimea and Chechnya.
A majority of Chechnya's population is Chechen, not Russian. Chechnya declared its independence in 1917. Russia invaded and retook it as part of the USSR in 1921. Soviet rule was not kind, with forms of Russification, confiscation of property, and even an act of genocide In 1991 with the Soviet collapse Chechnya again declared its independence. Again, Russia said "nyet - Russia's interests take precedence over the will of the local people." Years of bloody war followed with Moscow again prevailing.
BC, as a believer of Russian referenda, you will like this. Wiki: "In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia, but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout."
That is an amazing result for a people who have fought Russians for 150 years, declared their independence twice only to be crushed by Russians, and whose population had increased from 66% Chechen (25% Russian) in 1989 to 94% Chechen in 2002 (most Russians emigrated).
What is common about Chechnya and Ukraine? Not much other than Chechnya and Ukraine share one interesting factor: important Russian pipelines run through their territories.
BC, Putin's humanitarian concern for helping people implement their political wishes (and protecting them from Neonazis) must warm your heart.
Gator,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Dagestan_(1999)
http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1914369_1917860,00.html
I think what I am trying to say is that you, nor I can expect other countries to achieve their goals in the same manner as we might. The mindset, values, not to mention culture etc are different. Putin obviously understands the mindset and knows how to get things done his way in his own back yards. We may object to his way but heck we have enough of a problem trying to get anything done at home with our own deadlocked political machines.
Even a wrong decision is better than indecision... Try to forget about ideologies altogether and concentrate on results instead. That seems to be what he is doing...
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No, I'm not worried one bit about RU waging war and trying to take over EU as it would make absolutely no sense at all. Neither is anyone else here. It seems only those across the Atlantic even bring this up.
I understand, and I agree, yet there are ways to exercise power short of military action.
BC, you raise good points. I certainly don't pretend to have the answers. In fact, the more I look at the conflict and the issue of rebuilding UA, the more questions I have. Personally, based on UA's history for the past 20 years, I question whether UA has what it takes to progress. If so, remaining the adopted odd child of RU is perhaps for the best.
Putin is taking care of a problem that no one else really gave a crap about.. until now. Some might not like his approach but heck.. is there anyone else really willing to step up to the bat and clean up UA?
UA must do it themselves with some aid the same way Germany did it after WWII. Can they?
Was Russia not at the highest level of influence for the past 20 years as UA pissed away its opportunities, money and resources? Russia even had its puppets in charge for several of these years. So why will it get better in seceded regions under Russian control/authority? Maybe the removal of Russian influence will enable the smaller, leaner UA to deal with its problems.
If aid (money) is the issue, why did RU seize Crimea and the need to upgrade its infrastructure, etc. And why seize the equivalent of rust belt industry in eastern Ukraine? What will it cost to upgrade factories there? Russia is reducing the size of the problem that must be addressed in making UA viable. In one regard, RU is doing UA a favor.
In another regard, energy is a key issue. Western Ukraine has a large shale formation. Fracking will be implemented out of necessity. Successful implementation in Ukraine may encourage EU to implement fracking elsewhere and thus reduce reliance of RU gas. Is RU throwing Br'er Rabbit into the briar patch?
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Straw man argument um FT. Completely irerelevant but enjoy attacking it anyway
Please FT, stay on topic. I ignored your last post to my previous one intentionally. You've lost any credibility with me of having any valid point. Honestly, you seem like a decent enough chap but, I'm not interested in any further debate with someone so completely intellectually dishonest with your faulty circular logic. I only see one of two reasons for that dishonesty. Your head is planted so far up your butt that you actually believe what you write. In that case, I don't know how you get your shoes tied in the mornings or, you just argue for the sake of argument and have no point to make.
I think you are mislabeling 'circular logic' it seems when somebody has a certain point of view different from yours you label it 'circular logic' as a way to discredit the viewpoint...if you can show me SPECIFICALLY where I was using circular logic within this topic, I will stand corrected.
If you don't like my viewpoint on this topic that is fine, there are several that don't. Nevertheless, I still hold that the USA has helped created this situation in Ukraine. That doesn't mean that Russia isn't guilty of aggression....but I sure as hell don't think WE of all people's should be acting all high and mighty about it.
Regarding your silly comments towards the end, perhaps that is how you would like dialogue to be between us. I really would prefer not, but I'll go with the flow, going forward...so you can choose.
Fathertime!
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As I see it the population in Odessa have accepted the results and for me that's quite good enough.
Odessa is a long way from Crimea - why should its population's acceptance (or otherwise) of this annexation have any bearing on your own thoughts?
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No, I'm not worried one bit about RU waging war and trying to take over EU as it would make absolutely no sense at all. Neither is anyone else here. It seems only those across the Atlantic even bring this up.
Actually our NATO allies on your side of the Atlantic are more worried about Russia than we and are begging Obama to do something. Most Americans could care less about Ukraine. Most Americans don't even know where Ukraine is.
In other news some American Congressmen are calling on tougher sanctions on Russia since Putin has little interest in removing his troops from Ukraine and honoring the agreement from last Thursday.
If Putin continues to encourage a civil war, he will help the pro Russians win. Putin will then have the option to annex all Ukraine, not just the east and it won't cost the lives of many Russian troops. Like Crimea, there will be no need for outside monitors since we can count on Putin to make sure there's a fair election when it comes time to annex Ukraine.
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Odessa is a long way from Crimea - why should its population's acceptance (or otherwise) of this annexation have any bearing on your own thoughts?
Was a brain fart. Maybe Freudian? :) Was thinking Crimea.. will correct it.
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Was a brain fart. Maybe Freudian? :) Was thinking Crimea.. will correct it.
These things happen. :o
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If it was so democratic and the Russians were so convinced that the population supported them, why the rush? They could have waited until the end of May. Gave people a chance to discuss the options. Heck, they could have given the option of keeping the status quo. Then, they could have invited legitimate international observers by the busload to confirm that the elections were conducted fairly and openly...
Heh
Misha, noticed how your statement was totally ignored?
Could it be that it made some sense? :rolleyes:
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I had read that the Russian army had been undergoing a modernization of its equipment. This article goes into some of the details of this modernization that could enhance its chances of success should it invade Eastern Ukraine:
Tactical advantage: Russian military shows off impressive new gear
Elite Russian troops are displaying a new arsenal of body armor, individual weapons, armor-piercing ammunition and collar radios — a menu of essential gear that gives them a big tactical advantage against a lesser-equipped Ukrainian army. If President Vladimir Putin orders an invasion, the new-generation body armor, in particular, would provide exceptional protection against small arms if Russian troops go street by street to capture Kiev and other cities.
“If the Russians are coming across mechanized, with airborne and infantry units wearing their body armor, it basically means the Ukrainian rifles have no ability to penetrate the body armor worn by the Russian troops, meaning you’re talking about having to shoot somebody six, seven, eight times, in the chest,” Mr. Traudt said. “They’re going to get bumped, but there’s no lethality involved.”
... In all, Russian fighters, including Mr. Putin’s hired guns of ex-military commandos who wear civilian clothes, have displayed a new inventory of rifles, machine guns, grenade launchers and rocket-propelled grenades. The Russians claim the RPG can kill a tank.
... the better-equipped Russian soldier is bad news for the smaller and budget-strapped Ukraine military, which numbers about 160,000.
[The Obama administration] has rejected Ukrainian requests for lethal, and most nonlethal, military gear, except packaged food, blankets, sleeping bags, helmets and generators...
Ukraine has become a U.S. ally by sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan. Yet its military is having trouble persuading the Obama administration to provide any aid, even bedding.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/20/tactical-advantage-russian-military-shows-off-impr/
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Larry,
You need to look only at Russia's invasion of Georgia territory in 2008 for an answer.
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Misha, noticed how your statement was totally ignored?
Could it be that it made some sense? :rolleyes:
This is a moot point. Russia has Crimea and will never give it back. Besides, I believe even in a UN-sanctioned referendum, the majority of Crimean citizens would have voted for secession.
Let that not stop us from discussing it, especially as it has implications for eastern Ukraine. Misha's quote does make sense in challenging BC's claim that the secession of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea was "a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others."
This begs the bigger question of whether Crimea's constitution as an Autonomous Republic gave it the right to hold a referendum about secession. If not, the process was not democratic and instead was a violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity.
I tried to study the matter and found no conclusive evidence. Seemingly, the right of secession first should have been addressed by the World Court even though it has no compulsory jurisdiction. That would have been a democratic process. Instead, we had the Russian pragmatic process.
A quote from the Guardian says it best: "What makes a secessionist claim successful in the eyes of the international community – indeed, in the eyes of the people fighting for secession – is the existence of a historical grievance over territory. No such legal claim can be made surrounding Crimea."
This precedent is logically spilling over into eastern Ukraine. Self-autonomy is being discussed. Will a referendum be proposed there? Will the ambiguity of the borders of Ukraine with FSU republics of Moldova, Belarus and Russia be an issue? Or will the big bully just simply take it covertly?
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Difference is GQBlues..English troops,wearing no insigna,but leaping out of British attack Helicopters, won't go into Scotland wearing ski-masks and carrying AK-47'S to make sure the Scots vote to stay with Great Britain in their referendum...so we won't be invading their country and rigging the votes at gunpoint...with Cameron saying "we have no troops in Scotland" ..spot the difference ?...
Considering the legacy of the good kingdom, you really need to get a good bit of objectivity, CB. Familiarize yourself with the Suez crisis and tell us if YOU spot any difference. LOL
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1953-1960/suez
Scotland have its own 'oil' and with a whopping 2013 250 billion GDP, that's one region the good kingdom cannot afford to lose.
The strife in the middle east today, the turmoil that haunts Africa today, are direct results of the hegemony and land-grabbing habits of the decadent west. Rome may have crumbled eons ago but its legacy and habit still prevails today.
Do you honestly believe the Arab Spring were perpetuated by altruistic need of its respective population to be 'free'? We've been tampering instability in these regions since even before the colonial years. Take a step back and watch all the recent events and you'll see Ukraine is no different than any of the Arab/African/Balkan shifts we've recently lay witness to. The lone difference is, with Ukraine today - Russia actively reacted.
...As for the Falklands I suggest you check your facts...the British have claimed sovereignity since 1690..before the Argies came on the scene ,and have exercised defacto sovereignity since 1833..without gifting them to Argentina,so exactly where is the recent invasion and land-grab by the Brits ?...
First, if you're going all the way back to the middle ages, then allow me to remind you Kiev belongs to Russia, OK?
LOL. Regarding the south seas, I always knew the facts, CB. So do Argentina. You should too. Just because the UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council and facts and reality by the little guys don't mean sh!t, doesn't mean we have to buy into the lies and hypocrisy, no?
http://en.mercopress.com/2012/08/14/falklands-included-in-argentina-s-un-continental-shelf-committee-presentation (http://en.mercopress.com/2012/08/14/falklands-included-in-argentina-s-un-continental-shelf-committee-presentation)
http://www.dur.ac.uk/ibru/resources/south_atlantic/ (http://www.dur.ac.uk/ibru/resources/south_atlantic/)
Now you can claim they colonized this mass of a land waste (though the Portuguese may disagree with you about it ) but the more you might want to argue the point, the more you'll be proving mine. Just because I laid claim unto anything in your home, or that belongs to you, simply because I can and you're too weak to defend it, doesn't mean it's legit, no? Yup...just like what's going on in Ukraine today.
There's no geographical reason for the UK to have sovereign rights over the Falklands. NONE. It's just a simple, good ol' fashioned land-grab/hegemony, CB. The same type of hegemony and land-grabbing modus operandi the likes of you are bitching about Russia's action in Ukraine today, man.
...The reality is Argentina tried a Russia style heist and failed....
No. The reality really is, when you lose all sense of objectivity, and merely think from the knee (jerk reactions), more times than not, like BillyB, you start shooting from the hip. Had Argentina been a source of the MOB dirty barrel, I can almost guarantee you you'd be screaming the return of what REALISTICALLY belongs to them. LOL. That's just human nature, man.
Bottom line, if you need to bitch about someone that you feel is creating instability and unrest in Ukraine, I suggest looking first at yourself and your government. I know I have and had no problem seeing that to be the truth.
The problem of corruption in Ukraine need to start with the people itself. Corruption is a way of life with its people. It's comical to have people talk about how evil and corrupt its politicians are. You've been there and you can't honestly tell me that corruption is NOT prevalent at its very basic social core. You may not like what and how Russia *governed* Ukraine all these years, but it'll behoove the Ukrainians to solicit the opinions of Arabs and Africans alike how THEY liked being governed by the west all these years.
Marrying the devil you know instead of the devil you don't, sometimes have its advantages.
Now, I will agree with you that what Russia is doing is NOT cool. But neglecting/ignoring the actual cause of this crisis is where we differ.
FWIW. I like the Brits above all others. You were always the ones to stand with the US despite all...good, bad or indifference.
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First, if you're going all the way back to the middle ages, then allow me to remind you Kiev belongs to Russia, OK?
If we were to go all the way back to let's say the year 1000AD, we would have to raze Moscow as the city did not exist during the height of Kievan Rus and it only got its first prince much later. Finally, Russia would rightfully belong to Ukraine (Kyiv) where the Grand Prince would reside >:D
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If we were to go all the way back to let's say the year 1000AD, we would have to raze Moscow as the city did not exist during the height of Kievan Rus and it only got its first prince much later. Finally, Russia would rightfully belong to Ukraine (Kyiv) where the Grand Prince would reside >:D
Dammit no. :P
There never was such a country/state/kingdom/nation as 'Ukraine' until the beginning of the 20th century. Post-Russian revolution.
Kiev was technically a territory belonging to the eldest brother Kyi, who for all intent and purposes was *Russian* (he was sexy, too so I think he's likely part-Filipino. At least a 1/4) - hence Kievan (Kyi - Rus).
So there you have it. Ukraine rightfully belongs to Russia. All of it.
btw- I wish Sandro would rewrite history a little better. Why they called this period 'medieval ages' considering it's technically wrong to call it the 'middle ages' when the period in question was during the 1100-1400s. Hardly the middle of the millennium.
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Dammit no. :P
There never was such a country/state/kingdom/nation as 'Ukraine' until the beginning of the 20th century. Kiev was technically a territory belonging to the eldest brother Kyi, who for all intent and purposes was *Russian* (he was sexy, too so I think he's likely part-Filipino. At least a 1/4) - hence Kievan (Kyi - Rus).
So there you have it. Ukraine rightfully belongs to Russia. All of it.
btw- I wish Sandro would rewrite history a little better. Why they called this period 'medieval ages' considering it's technically wrong to call it the 'middle ages' when the period in question was during the 1100-1400s. Hardly the middle of the millennium.
LMAO
Part Filipino??
You too much baby.
Besides thre was no Russia. It was Moscovy.
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LMAO
Part Filipino??...
:P There's no doubt, man ;)
3/4 Wladimir Klitschko, 1/4 Manny Pacquiao..
Bwalla! Brad Pitt!
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Heh
Misha, noticed how your statement was totally ignored?
Could it be that it made some sense? :rolleyes:
Or how about a more positive spin such as....
Heh Misha, good post! :thumbsup:
It's much more pleasant to read and much less
assumptive.
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Dammit no. :P
There never was such a country/state/kingdom/nation as 'Ukraine' until the beginning of the 20th century. Post-Russian revolution.
Kiev was technically a territory belonging to the eldest brother Kyi, who for all intent and purposes was *Russian* (he was sexy, too so I think he's likely part-Filipino. At least a 1/4) - hence Kievan (Kyi - Rus).
So there you have it. Ukraine rightfully belongs to Russia. All of it.
btw- I wish Sandro would rewrite history a little better. Why they called this period 'medieval ages' considering it's technically wrong to call it the 'middle ages' when the period in question was during the 1100-1400s. Hardly the middle of the millennium.
GQB, could you please clarify if it is pure attempt of a joke or absolute lack of knowledge about history of Russia, Ukraine and Київська Русь?
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GQB, could you please clarify if it is pure attempt of a joke or absolute lack of knowledge about history of Russia, Ukraine and Київська Русь?
MissA, usually when a post if preceded by a * :P * sort of gives you an idea about the gist of the post.
The bottom line is, Ukraine, the country *we* know today, didn't become a country/nation/republic until the early 1900s. So, what is a country? You'd be amazed at the many definition of the word but one of the more constant definition will be 'with distinct territorial boundaries and/or political geography'.
Now, if you'd like to go back to when the land rose above the seas and thawed after the ice age and was eventually inhabited by humans, well then the question is, will they be comprised of, and ruled by, or governed by: Slavs (Cossacks), Goths, Tatars, Avars, Slovyans, Persians, Poles, Lithuanians, Greeks, Mongols, Huns, or maybe even Filipinos - you never know, right?), etc...? :o
Are they represented by Ukraine's people today....not exactly, no?
So when all is said and done, all that really matters TODAY is this: Ukraine is under siege. Siege by its own people, siege by capitalistic/imperial political forces outside its borders, siege by its leaders and siege by the untruth. No?
Ukraine, it seems, by itself, can't even *decide* its own fate - not by its own constitution - not by itself still - yet longs for full *independence*. It couldn't shortly after 1919, and it couldn't shortly after 1991. It couldn't under Tymoschenko and it couldn't during Yanukovych. But Ukraine had a chance very recently. Unfortunately, it proved it still couldn't after all these years. Unless of course you'd like to discount the Russian population nationalized by Ukraine. Because if you do, then the *will of the majority of the Ukrainian people* means very little indeed.
Thus, it finds itself right back from when the ice first started melting...
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The bottom line is, Ukraine, the country *we* know today, didn't become a country/nation/republic until the early 1900s.
How is this relevant? Poland was only reconstituted as a state in 1918. Following this logic, Great Britain should never have gone to war against Nazi Germany. Even Germany did not exist anywhere close to the country *we* know today until 1871 and Italy 1870 IIRC but Sandro will certainly correct me if I am wrong ;) If we follow this logic, we should at least decide on some form of cut-off date as to better decide how we will spin history to redraw political maps ;)
Ukraine is under siege. Siege by its own people
That is the Russian spin on things, but most ethnic Ukrainians don't see Russians as their "own" people. MissA will certainly be able to address this in greater detail. If we are to follow this logic, this would mean that the United States could invade Canada and Great Britain as they are the same "people" for the most part as all could claim to trace their political lineages to England.
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How is this relevant? Poland was only reconstituted as a state in 1918. Following this logic, Great Britain should never have gone to war against Nazi Germany. Even Germany did not exist anywhere close to the country *we* know today until 1871 and Italy 1870 IIRC but Sandro will certainly correct me if I am wrong ;) If we follow this logic, we should at least decide on some form of cut-off date as to better decide how we will spin history to redraw political maps ;) ...
That's exactly the point (such I reiterated with my post to MissA above), Misha. So when is the period of relevance for Ukraine in your opinion? 1921? 1991? Today?
....That is the Russian spin on things, but most ethnic Ukrainians don't see Russians as their "own" people. MissA will certainly be able to address this in greater detail. If we are to follow this logic, this would mean that the United States could invade Canada and Great Britain as they are the same "people" for the most part as all could claim to trace their political lineages to England....
Ahh...therein lies the rub. That type of logic would nullify literally every country in the world we know today. Do you consider yourself 'Canadian'? Should your vote have counted as a Canadian? Should you have a voice in Canada?
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That type of logic would nullify literally every country in the world we know today.
Yes, and that is why international law for better or for worse applies to existing states and existing boundaries. To do otherwise invites global chaos.
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Yes, and that is why international law for better or for worse applies to existing states and existing boundaries. To do otherwise invites global chaos.
Hence every state or country MUST respect the will of its majority to avert chaotic crisis. The will of the majority is wholly represented by the appointment of its leader regardless of the ethnicity of its citizens.
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what would a war look like , ??
truth is we have been watching it since the 27th feb ,
russia has invaded ukraine , it has consistently been active in destabilising ukraine from within for even much longer,
maiden protesters recognised the need to break from its sphere of influence , as this is one of the major contributing factors to its current malaise manifested in all aspects within ukraine
putins slow invasion and destabilising tactics are working , very effectivly, many here are willing to justify his actions rather than confront the reality and support more positive action against him ,
the countrys that signed the budapest memorandum are now doing much less that they agreed to at that time ,
human nature dictates self preservation first usually , except in rare individuals , currently we dont have any such individuals in the roles of power that are needed to stop this dead,
NATO should have put peacekeepers on the ground into ukraine since feb 27, to ensure a peacefull enviroment for the interim gov in ukraine to be able to hold elections on may 25th
given that they did not do so , elections will not be held , the continuing escalation in the south east will provide the twisted rationale for putin to move in and hold that part of ukraine and even into moldova ,
before may 9th imho
he will then hold armed bogus referendums to annexe it to russia , regardless of the real will of the people
the chapters are already written , until such time as NATO/EU/US take serious action to stop him he will continue ,
anyone who thinks otherwise is not following this from putins perspective
it is not a win/win for anyone other than putin at present , get real and stop kidding yourselves on that
all indicators are he will succeed , facts on the ground prove this out over the last 8 weeks that is what counts
regardless of it being illegal on multiple fronts, regardless of the human cost it will inflict on the population in ukraine
SX
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Hence every state or country MUST respect the will of its majority to avert chaotic crisis. The will of the majority is wholly represented by the appointment of its leader regardless of the ethnicity of its citizens.
What exactly is the point you are trying to make here? How does this apply to either Ukraine or Russia? If you are talking about Crimea, there was simply enough haste and some questionable actions to put into question whether the will of any majority was truly respected.
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What exactly is the point you are trying to make here? How does this apply to either Ukraine or Russia? If you are talking about Crimea, there was simply enough haste and some questionable actions to put into question whether the will of any majority was truly respected.
example being , if we look at crimea , the recent election within their armed and russian soldier supervised parliament back in late feb of the now prime minister aksanov shows us how a guy who has criminal history can go on to form his own political party , get less than 4% of the vote in 2012 under free elections but then inlate feb 2014 win an overwhelming majority of votes to become prime minister ??? ::) ::) ::)
AND now it is being legitimised and recognised as the true democratic will of the crimean population ,
bloody incredulous ! ::)
SX
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What exactly is the point you are trying to make here? How does this apply to either Ukraine or Russia? If you are talking about Crimea, there was simply enough haste and some questionable actions to put into question whether the will of any majority was truly respected.
Well Misha I didn't really think it needed explanation. I thought dismissing in answering my question was a submission you at least got the point.
So the point was, Ukraine elected a president fairly and legally. Which means that whoever became president represented the *majority will* of Ukrainians in Ukraine - regardless of ethnicity. Thus the president represented the *will of the people*. Whether Yanu was pro-Russian or not was never an issue until they found gas in Ukraine late 2012-2013 and the west started meddling around the country's internal affairs.
Yanu decided to align with Russia instead of the west and brokered a deal. Considering he's the duly elected president, the power was given to him to decide for the people by proxy. He decided to go with Russia and next thing you know, there's a protest. Then the ensuing illegal ousting of the country's leader...and bwalla, a nicely packaged crisis.
We've seen this before. It happened in our life time many times already even as recently as the Arab Spring i.e. Libya.
The additional interesting thing about this too is, the residing council members who were short in voting to depose of the president were officials elected in the last election which was coincidentally hailed as being mired by bribery and corruption. Even then, by Ukraine's constitution, they didn't meet the required 2/3 to impeach - fell ten votes short 328 from the required 338.
If any of what I said here is wrong, let me know by proving otherwise (citation).
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If we were to go all the way back to let's say the year 1000AD, we would have to raze Moscow as the city did not exist during the height of Kievan Rus and it only got its first prince much later. Finally, Russia would rightfully belong to Ukraine (Kyiv) where the Grand Prince would reside >:D
History channel: Moscow was founded by Kievan Grand Prince Yuri Dolgoruki in XII c.
We have no objections if Grand Prince of Russia and Ukraine will reside back in Kiev again. :)
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It appeared to me that there was a general understanding that the parliament did not have the necessary votes to oust the president. They did it anyway...and now they have problems... From what I've been reading over the past several weeks, the current Ukraine leadership has very little support...even the troops just handed over their tanks/weapons to the opposition...that certainly doesn't bode well for whoever is in power. We *the USA* really stepped in a big pile of doodoo this time. I don't see Russia letting go now, regardless of whatever threats we muster up....it didn't have to be this way. If Ukraine becomes a federation, that should be considered a victory for both sides.
Fathertime!
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It appeared to me that there was a general understanding that the parliament did not have the necessary votes to oust the president. They did it anyway...and now they have problems, regardless of whatever
Fathertime!
FT regardless of how ukraine parliament voted etc , it is still ''THERE ''internal issue to sort out , not russias
there seems to be some sort of justification for russias intervention/invasion theft of ukraine lands based on this , how is that logic derived at ??
If Ukraine becomes a federation, that should be considered a victory for both sides.
ukraine should be left in peace , have NATO peackeepers on the ground imediatly to oversee the free elections on 25th may , with russia completly withdrawing its forces away from the border and internally from ukraine soil , that is a win FT , anything else is not a win for ukraine , just another loss
SX
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History channel: Moscow was founded by Kievan Grand Prince Yuri Dolgoruki in XII c.
We have no objections if Grand Prince of Russia and Ukraine will reside back in Kiev again. :)
I was in Moscow when they celebrated their 850th anniversary in 1997. The date was chosen because it was the first time the town was mentioned in written history. It remained an insignificant locale until it was granted to Alexander Nevsky's youngest son Daniel in the 13th century and it would not really grow to be a center of any importance until the 14th century, long after the decline of Kievan Rus. But, much like a certain wannabe Tsar, the Princes of Moscow did seek to aggrandize their status by claiming the glory of Kyiv/Kiev and its past as its own...
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Hey Sx, in a perfect world Ukraine would not be fiddled with by anyone...I think the Russian perspective is that the west *usa* had a lot to do with the events leading up to Y's sudden departure right before he was about to sign the pro Russia deal...if that is where they are coming from then they probably feel entitled to meddle all they want..
It appears to me that when the chips are down much of the Ukraine citizenry is going to choose the Russian side, especially if the other side is the USA. We are a fish out of water in Russia's backyard. it is a bad move for our nation to get deeper into this as it appears to escalate and make matters worse..imo
Fathertime!
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The bottom line is, Ukraine, the country *we* know today, didn't become a country/nation/republic until the early 1900s. So, what is a country? You'd be amazed at the many definition of the word but one of the more constant definition will be 'with distinct territorial boundaries and/or political geography'.
That depends on whose version of our history you read. If you read Russian version then of course today's 'Ukraine' is nothing more than Little Russia. Just that version unable to cover all historical facts doesn't matter how hard you try.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Delineatio_generalis_Camporum_Desertorum_vulgo_Ukraina_%281648%29.jpg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Delineatio_generalis_Camporum_Desertorum_vulgo_Ukraina_%281648%29.jpg
Even my hometown is on that map.
History channel: Moscow was founded by Kievan Grand Prince Yuri Dolgoruki in XII c.
We have no objections if Grand Prince of Russia and Ukraine will reside back in Kiev again. :)
Hilarious! You forgot to mention that Kiev exist since 5th century.
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So the point was, Ukraine elected a president fairly and legally. Which means that whoever became president represented the *majority will* of Ukrainians in Ukraine - regardless of ethnicity. Thus the president represented the *will of the people*. Whether Yanu was pro-Russian or not was never an issue until they found gas in Ukraine late 2012-2013 and the west started meddling around the country's internal affairs.
OK, I think we can all accept that Yanukovych was elected "fairly and legally," so the rest of this paragraph would logically follow.
Yanu decided to align with Russia instead of the west and brokered a deal. Considering he's the duly elected president, the power was given to him to decide for the people by proxy. He decided to go with Russia and next thing you know, there's a protest.
Where's your proof (citation please) that this is legal? Is it written in the Ukrainian constitution (the earlier version - 2004? - not the one that Yanukovych rewrote himself) that the President may make totally unilateral decisions, without reference to the actual Government? This is the action of a dictator, not a "duly elected" President.
Then the ensuing illegal ousting of the country's leader...Even then, by Ukraine's constitution, they didn't meet the required 2/3 to impeach - fell ten votes short 328 from the required 338.
You must have been tired when you wrote this - it's 3/4, not 2/3. Also, if you go back a few pages, you'll see the reference that was made about the vote being required only to be 3/4 of those on active duty at the time (i.e. those who have been granted leave of absence are deducted from the total membership of 450). Therefore, if this is in fact correct, and there were 437 or fewer members present and working, 328 votes is enough to carry the motion.
and bwalla, a nicely packaged crisis.
Can't you spell "voila?"
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Or how about a more positive spin such as....
Heh Misha, good post! :thumbsup:
It's much more pleasant to read and much less
assumptive.
Are you being a libtard and are telling me what I should do or say?
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If Ukraine becomes a federation, that should be considered a victory for both sides.
Fathertime!
Heh
More passive-aggressive ignorant statements.
Please do tell how having federal states in Ukraine that respond to Russia is a win-win for Ukarine.
Are you familiar with the zero-sum game? Obviously not.
However, if you do know this game, it just shows once again of your passive-aggressiveness.
It's like dealing with a child.
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Or how about a more positive spin such as....
Heh Misha, good post! :thumbsup:
It's much more pleasant to read and much less
assumptive.
You must not forget CM in Muzh case It is like you are dealing with a angry child seeking attention through aggression…
Fathertime!
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Heh
More passive-aggressive ignorant statements.
Please do tell how having federal states in Ukraine that respond to Russia is a win-win for Ukarine.
Are you familiar with the zero-sum game? Obviously not.
However, if you do know this game, it just shows once again of your passive-aggressiveness.
It's like dealing with a child.
Given how your 'sage' predictions were so far off every step of the way…I’d say who the hell cares about some silly book or concept that you see as being so all-important? Despite your angry whining’s…Russia has a lot of control in the situation, and it is doubtful that will change much. A federation with parts of Ukraine leaning towards Russia and other parts leaning towards the west seems like a reasonable solution. If you don't like it, that won't be enough to stop it from happening. :D [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
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Given how your 'sage' predictions were so far off every step of the way…I’d say who the hell cares about some silly book or concept that you see as being so all-important? Despite your angry whining’s…Russia has a lot of control in the situation, and it is doubtful that will change much. A federation with parts of Ukraine leaning towards Russia and other parts leaning towards the west seems like a reasonable solution. If you don't like it, that won't be enough to stop it from happening. :D [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
I didn't mean to get you all riled up because of your ignorance. That can be cured. ;)
Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game) wiki definition of the zero-sum. It is really easy to understand.
BTW, what is your purpose on a former Soyuz Women forum? Are you leaving your chiquita for a Rus babe? Seriously, why are you on this forum?
I'll keep asking you this question and hopefully you will honor me with an answer.
The irony is that I'm latino and you don't see me going to your latino forums, if you ever go there I donn't know, and tell youse how fcuked up things are in Latin America and how the US should stop the charade and absorb the whole continent as a win-win situation. I'm pretty sure many out there would definitely see it as a win-win. Definitely more latinos welcoming the US than Ukrainians welcoming Russians.
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Russia Controls the Situation (http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-claims-ukraine-grossly-breaching-agreement-hints-military-intervention-1574313)
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You must have been tired when you wrote this - it's 3/4, not 2/3. Also, if you go back a few pages, you'll see the reference that was made about the vote being required only to be 3/4 of those on active duty at the time (i.e. those who have been granted leave of absence are deducted from the total membership of 450). Therefore, if this is in fact correct, and there were 437 or fewer members present and working, 328 votes is enough to carry the motion.
Why don't you read Constitution before enter into the dispute?
2/3 or 3/4 can be easily confused in the impeachment procedure, because both are counted. Active duty votes for impeachment is your pure assumption or uneducated guess? O.K., I'll cite the Constitution:
The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is initiated by the majority of the constitutional composition of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
To conduct the investigation, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine establishes a special temporary investigatory commission whose composition includes a special procurator and special investigators.
The conclusions and proposals of the temporary investigatory commission are considered at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
For cause, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, by no less than two-thirds of its constitutional composition, adopts a decision on the accusation of the President of Ukraine.
The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by no less than three-quarters of its constitutional composition, after the review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine and the receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and the receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of state treason or other crime.
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Why don't you read Constitution before enter into the dispute?
2/3 or 3/4 can be easily confused in the impeachment procedure, because both are counted. Active duty votes for impeachment is your pure assumption or uneducated guess? O.K., I'll cite the Constitution:
The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is initiated by the majority of the constitutional composition of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
To conduct the investigation, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine establishes a special temporary investigatory commission whose composition includes a special procurator and special investigators.
The conclusions and proposals of the temporary investigatory commission are considered at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
For cause, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, by no less than two-thirds of its constitutional composition, adopts a decision on the accusation of the President of Ukraine.
The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by no less than three-quarters of its constitutional composition, after the review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine and the receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and the receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of state treason or other crime.
Since we are talking about constitutional compositions, you may want to read some precedence that may and can influence the above quoted by you.
Legal status of assemblies
In revolutionary or transitional times, the “legality” of assemblies convened according to the rules set forth in a previous constitution may be doubtful.
American commentators have argued about whether the actions of the constitutional convention were “illegal” and therefore reflected the founding of a new legal order. The French constituent assembly came into existence to raise revenue for the French king. But as the existing system fell apart, it transformed itself into a constitution-making body. Even in this, revolutionary, case, the body itself was convened by the existing authority. In some situations of constitutional crisis, or even vacuum, constitutional assemblies have been brought into being by actions of outside forces, whether in the form of occupying powers, such as the victorious countries occupying (West) Germany after World War II, or the United Nations in Cambodia [1993], or the United States in Iraq [2005]. In Vanuatu [1980], members of the various local parties formed their own constituent assembly, without any formal legal framework, and proceeded to make a constitution. It was accepted by the colonial powers (France and Britain) and became law.
The South Africans, as mentioned earlier, wanted to preserve legal continuity. So the 1993 interim constitution and the final constitution were made by and according to the procedures of the parliaments of the time.
Other assemblies have come into existence in more “normal” times, and have been formed by existing authorities for the specific purpose of making a constitution. Those authorities might be the ordinary legislative process (as in Kenya in the later 1990s) or military authorities (as in Nigeria in 1977 and 1988). In those circumstances it is perhaps easier to design a process and a structure for the assembly. But it is probably rare that a constituent assembly is formed without great pressures from contending forces, even if those forces are not at war. In fact, in less- fraught constitution-making circumstances, perhaps a special constitutional assembly is a less common way to make a constitution. Among the constitutions made or amended in recent times in noncrisis circumstances are those of Finland, Sweden, and Switzerland, where changes were made by the ordinary parliament. This may also reflect national traditions—though Switzerland’s individual cantons do sometimes use constituent assemblies to make their cantonal constitutions.
For the purposes of this handbook, we assume that the important consideration for constitutional process designers will be whether the constitution is acceptable to the nation, something that is likely to depend more on its content and the process of making it than on legalistic arguments about its foundations.
Constitution-Making for Peace (http://www.constitutionmakingforpeace.org/part-3-institutions-groups-and-procedures/31-institutions-multiple-roles/312-constitutional)
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That depends on whose version of our history you read. If you read Russian version then of course today's 'Ukraine' is nothing more than Little Russia. Just that version unable to cover all historical facts doesn't matter how hard you try.
Actually no, MissA. If I actually have to rely in Ukraine's historical data, I would rely on Ukrainian's version of it. I believe Toronto's Ukrainian Genealogy Group have a great version in short form of Ukraine's historical facts.
Anyway, don't get me wrong about any of what's being debated here. I do feel for the plight of Ukrainians and wish nothing but the best for your country. I do not condone what Russia, and at least in equal measure if not more so, what the west (most specially my country) is doing in yours.
Based on a very objective views of the facts available to us today, Ukraine is being moved like a helpless pawns by those with sinister interest with your country's geopolitical location and economic resource. I feel it is too bad that it seems the general population are being manipulated like a brainless New Zealand sheep. The current transfer of leadership had gone from a corrupt politician to a corrupt politician and the population somehow believes this is progress.
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The current transfer of leadership had gone from a corrupt politician to a corrupt politician and the population somehow believes this is progress.
Corrupt?? Try goons and thugs.
However, this is exactly what Vlad the impaler has been planning all along. Now for the final act:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdIev12fCPs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdIev12fCPs)
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OK, I think we can all accept that Yanukovych was elected "fairly and legally," so the rest of this paragraph would logically follow...
Oh goodie! At RWD, I strive to save the world one fact at a time! ;)
Where's your proof (citation please) that this is legal? ...
1. Yes.
Citation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ukraine)
It quotes:
"...The President represents the country and government as a whole in international affairs. The President has the authority to conduct negotiations and sign treaties on behalf of the Ukrainian government. The right to recognize foreign nations rests solely with the President..... "
End quote.
Here's the Presidential Oath of Office:
Я, (ім'я та прізвище), волею народу обраний Президентом України, заступаючи на цей високий пост, урочисто присягаю на вірність Україні. Зобов'язуюсь усіма своїми справами боронити суверенітет і незалежність України, дбати про благо Вітчизни і добробут Українського народу, обстоювати права і свободи громадян, додержуватися Конституції України і законів України, виконувати свої обов'язки в інтересах усіх співвітчизників, підносити авторитет України у світі.
(let me know if you need citation for that, too OK?)
... Is it written in the Ukrainian constitution (the earlier version - 2004? - not the one that Yanukovych rewrote himself) that the President may make totally unilateral decisions, without reference to the actual Government?...
See Ukraine's Constitution 2004, Chapter V, Articles 102-112:
CITATION (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2004) - just in case you're incapable.
...This is the action of a dictator, not a "duly elected" President....
FWIW, I am not surprise at all this is what you believe. It's little wonder now why there's so much noise surrounding this discussion. At least unlike another one from your lonely, mostly irrelevant corner of our world, you don't just cut/paste/spam *discussion* boards to represent them as his personal thoughts/posts.
You must have been tired when you wrote this - it's 3/4, not 2/3. Also, if you go back a few pages, you'll see the reference that was made about the vote being required only to be 3/4 of those on active duty at the time (i.e. those who have been granted leave of absence are deducted from the total membership of 450).
CITATION (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ukraine)
"....In order to impeach the President, *they must be convicted of treason to the state and other crimes. A two-thirds constitutional majority in the Verkhovna Rada (300 ayes) must support a procedure of impeachment for it to begin. A temporary investigative commission is established by the parliament for the impeachment investigation. The commission's final conclusions are considered at a parliamentary meeting.
To adopt an impeachment resolution, a minimum two-thirds of the parliament must support the impeachment procedure. To remove the President from office, a minimum three-quarters of parliament must support the resolution. The Constitutional and the Supreme Court of Ukraine's conclusions and decisions are considered at the parliamentary meetings....."
Ukraine's Constitution requires a 2/3 majority vote to adopt a resolution to impeach the President. It then moves to the Council for voting, where it then requires 3/4 majority to uphold the resolution and turn it legally binding.
(i.e. those who have been granted leave of absence are deducted from the total membership of 450). Therefore, if this is in fact correct, and there were 437 or fewer members present and working, 328 votes is enough to carry the motion.
"IF"? You mean you're not sure? Which Yahoo vomit did you read that from?
Citation please...LOL.
There were 447 serving members of the parliament as of February 21, 2014.
CITATION (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada#cite_note-VOTELIST-4)
"...As of 21 February 2014 the parliament has 447 members..."
That citation was conducted from the Parliamentary roll call #2023 on February 21, 2014. CITATION HERE (http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/radan_gs09/ns_golos?g_id=3839)
328 ayes is short of the required 3/4 to legally depose of Yanukovich as the duly and legally elected President of Ukraine. But even if they had the required number of votes to meet the constitutional requirements, the basis they used (abandonment of his position) is not in the context cited as a reason for impeachment. The baseline was unconstitutional to begin with.
Can't you spell "voila?"
You mean CAN I spell 'voila', right? But yes I can...but BWALLA sure added much drama to it, no? I knew had I used 'voila' it wouldn't piss people off like you who think they know Jack but actually know JackPhyst. LOL.
Anyway, now that I once again edookatid you, will you pass along the information to the two losers from your insignificant neck of our world.
Thanks.
*General Information:
1. The reason used for the attempted impeachment was the allegations he abandoned his presidency. Yanukovich did not abandon his office or position. While this is debatable, there never was an official documents filed in the government of Ukraine that Yanukovich did in fact resigned. But such, it doesn't fall within the Constitution of Ukraine that will cause for a resolution for a presidential impeachment.
2. Article 105:
The President of Ukraine enjoys the right of immunity during the term of authority. Persons guilty of offending the honor and dignity of the President of Ukraine are brought to responsibility on the basis of the law. The title of President of Ukraine is protected by law and is reserved for the President for life, unless the President of Ukraine has been removed from office by the procedure of impeachment (see impeachment reasons and process).
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Justme100,
Where have you been? Still reading here I hope. How are things going on in Crimea? Wayne, who has a wife in Crimea, says in other threads that things aren't going so well over there. What's your opinion? Is Russia taking good care of you? How's inflation? Has prices on food and other necessities stayed the same or gone up? Are gas, water, and electricity in abundance or some people are faced with shortages?
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That citation was conducted from the Parliamentary roll call #2023 on February 21, 2014. CITATION HERE (http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/radan_gs09/ns_golos?g_id=3839)
328 ayes is short of the required 3/4 to legally depose of Yanukovich as the duly and legally elected President of Ukraine. But even if they had the required number of votes to meet the constitutional requirements, the basis they used (abandonment of his position) is not in the context cited as a reason for impeachment. The baseline was unconstitutional to begin with.
That citation doesn't have 328 ayes. Could you be linking the wrong citation? Maybe my online translator isn't working properly but nowhere do I see Yanukovych or president being mentioned.
P.S. Yanukovych was relieved because he wasn't fulfilling his duties, not because he's impeached over misconduct or crimes. Article 111 in the Ukrainian constitution requires 3/4 votes for impeachment. Not fulfilling duties doesn't fall under the impeachment process of Article 111.
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That's the Parliamentary roll call made on February 21, 2014 BillyB as shown on the citation. Proof, they had an active member count of 447. If you're having difficulty piecing one from the other, I suggest you do your diligence. Knowing how many members were 'actually around', I'm sure you can navigate how many were present when they voted for Yanukovich's quasi-impeachment.
More related story:
Since Biden now not only promised an additional 58 million dollar of taxpayers' monies to Ukraine, he also thumped his caving 70+ year old chest towards Russia to exclaim yet another empty rhetorical ultimatum words. We now have a company-sized monthly rotating soldiers stationed in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania respectively in addition to what we already have in the Black Sea.
They made clear that their presence there is NOT NATO-related but rather bilateral infantry training and exercises in direct response to Russia's presence in Ukraine.
To which, London-based analyst James Nixey apparently applauded and is giddy about. Great.
To the US democrats: I had almost forgiven the rhetoric that Republicans start wars while Democrats end them. I won't even mention LBJ getting us in the American war in Vietnam solely on a basis of a lie. If we get implicated into this current event, a wholly meaningless and utterly insignificant event for Americans, in a place where we are NOT wanted to be meddling in, please take note.
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Are you being a libtard and are telling me what I should do or say?
Thanks for asking your question.
I will explain my post to you.
You quoted from a post Misha made a few days ago, saying:
"Misha, noticed how your statement was totally ignored?
Could it be that it made some sense?"
In making your statements you were making various assumptions.
For your first statement:
"Misha, noticed how your statement was totally ignored?"
Assumption 1.
RWD members who visit the site read each and every post on a daily basis.
I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself. I hadn't read Misha's post until after you drew my attention to it. So in my case, I couldn't possibly have agreed with his statement if I hadn't read it.
and,
Assumption 2.
RWD members who read Misha's post and ignored it (didn't respond to it) must have disagreed with it.
Could it possibly be that some RWD members read his post, agreed with his sentiments, but couldn't be arsed to add anything to it, or respond to it?
Are RWD members obligated to respond to every post that they agree with?
As for your second statement:
"Could it be that it made some sense?"
You were insinuating (probably sarcastically) that RWD members only respond to statements that don't make sense.
I feel insulted by such a statement.
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BTW, what is your purpose on a former Soyuz Women forum? Are you leaving your chiquita for a Rus babe? Seriously, why are you on this forum?
I'll keep asking you this question and hopefully you will honor me with an answer.
I'm not interested in 'honoring' you with an answer, because I'd rather you just keep asking, and making presumptions. :D [size=78%] [/size]
You know how it goes...you get back exactly what you put in....remember 'the mirror' that you are so fond of.
Fathertime!
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Marvellous - except that there's a lot of fudging going on...
"...The President represents the country and government as a whole in international affairs. The President has the authority to conduct negotiations and sign treaties on behalf of the Ukrainian government. The right to recognize foreign nations rests solely with the President..... "
End quote.
He has the authority to act on behalf of the government. He does NOT have the authority to do this of his own volition.
Here's the Presidential Oath of Office:
Я, (ім'я та прізвище), волею народу обраний Президентом України, заступаючи на цей високий пост, урочисто присягаю на вірність Україні. Зобов'язуюсь усіма своїми справами боронити суверенітет і незалежність України, дбати про благо Вітчизни і добробут Українського народу, обстоювати права і свободи громадян, додержуватися Конституції України і законів України, виконувати свої обов'язки в інтересах усіх співвітчизників, підносити авторитет України у світі.
(let me know if you need citation for that, too OK?)
Just a shame that you couldn't be bothered, or deliberately omitted to include this:
Official English translation:| I, (name and surname), elected by the will of the people as the President of Ukraine, assuming this high office, do solemnly swear allegiance to Ukraine. I pledge with all my undertakings to protect the sovereignty and independence of Ukraine, to provide for the good of the Motherland and the welfare of the Ukrainian people, to protect the rights and freedoms of citizens, to abide by the Constitution of Ukraine and the laws of Ukraine, to exercise my duties in the interests of all compatriots, and to enhance the prestige of Ukraine in the world.[/t] |
By no stretch of the imagination could Yanukovych be deemed to have fulfilled these obligations in his last few months in power.
CITATION (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ukraine)
"....In order to impeach the President, *they must be convicted of treason to the state and other crimes. A two-thirds constitutional majority in the Verkhovna Rada (300 ayes) must support a procedure of impeachment for it to begin. A temporary investigative commission is established by the parliament for the impeachment investigation. The commission's final conclusions are considered at a parliamentary meeting.
To adopt an impeachment resolution, a minimum two-thirds of the parliament must support the impeachment procedure. To remove the President from office, a minimum three-quarters of parliament must support the resolution. The Constitutional and the Supreme Court of Ukraine's conclusions and decisions are considered at the parliamentary meetings....."
That all looks fine and dandy, except that, as you've rightly quoted:
Article 105:
The President of Ukraine enjoys the right of immunity during the term of authority.
So, under the constitution, it's actually impossible to impeach the President (unless there's a rider somewhere within that Article which expressly excludes treason or other major/monstrous crimes from the right of immunity).
Ukraine's Constitution requires a 2/3 majority vote to adopt a resolution to impeach the President. It then moves to the Council for voting, where it then requires 3/4 majority to uphold the resolution and turn it legally binding.
In case you hadn't noticed, nobody is arguing with this - except that it appears to be impossible! The actual entry in Wikipedia continues with:
In the event that a President is incapable of committing his/her duties as President, the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_of_the_Verkhovna_Rada) becomes the acting president until a new president is elected.
Note that this does not even appear to require any sort of vote - it appears to be automatic. The resolution put to the Rada was this:
Resolution of the Verkhovna Rada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada) №764-VІІ of 23.02.2014 «On conferring powers of the President of Ukraine on the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada according to article 112 of the Constitution of Ukraine»
Given that President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) withdrew from performing the constitutional powers The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine hereby resolves:
1. To confer the powers of the President of Ukraine on Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_of_the_Verkhovna_Rada) of Ukraine Turchynov Oleksandr Valentynovych according to article 112 of the Constitution of Ukraine.
2. The given Resolution shall enter into force upon its adoption.
Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada О.TURCHYNOV[/l]
*General Information:
1. The reason used for the attempted impeachment was the allegations he abandoned his presidency. Yanukovich did not abandon his office or position. While this is debatable, there never was an official documents filed in the government of Ukraine that Yanukovich did in fact resigned. But such, it doesn't fall within the Constitution of Ukraine that will cause for a resolution for a presidential impeachment.
Nobody is claining that he resigned, but how can you say that Yanukovych did not abandon his office? He left his own country to seek safety/asylum in Russia. Even in eastern Europe, you cannot possibly be President of one country while living in another.[/td][/tr][/table]
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gq If we get implicated into this current event, a wholly meaningless and utterly insignificant event for Americans, in a place where we are NOT wanted to be meddling in, please take note.
america should stop asking other countrys to give up their nukes and signing memorandums of protection ::) if they dont wish to be involved/implicated,
it gives the appearance of dishonesty and weakness to others looking on
SX
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america should stop asking other countrys to give up their nukes and signing memorandums of protection ::) if they dont wish to be involved/implicated,
it gives the appearance of dishonesty and weakness to others looking on
SX
Yup, and so should Russia.
Our present form of government doesn't lend itself to keeping promises. It's a shame really, our government is broken and our political leaders amount to nothing more than clowns and a side show. The world wanted Obama to be our president and the world got him.
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Marvellous - except that there's a lot of fudging going on...
Yes. I agree. See below.
...He has the authority to act on behalf of the government. He does NOT have the authority to do this of his own volition...
You challenged what I wrote and asked for a citation. I gave you the citation in full context of their Constitution to support what I previously written and you want to now debate based solely on your own personal interpretation of what it should mean.
Did anyone say fudging?
Just a shame that you couldn't be bothered, or deliberately omitted to include this:
It was written directly below the *actual* oath written in their actual language. I gave you the citation for the entire content and all you took from it was somehow I'm being disingenuous likely because you couldn't read it or just too darn lazy to click on the link.
Did anyone say fudging?
...By no stretch of the imagination could Yanukovych be deemed to have fulfilled these obligations in his last few months in power....
Odd. If you wanted personal supposition, hyperbole, speculations then you should not have requested citations to begin with.
Did anyone say fudging?
That all looks fine and dandy, except that, as you've rightly quoted:
So, under the constitution, it's actually impossible to impeach the President (unless there's a rider somewhere within that Article which expressly excludes treason or other major/monstrous crimes from the right of immunity).
Read (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html)
In case you hadn't noticed, nobody is arguing with this - except that it appears to be impossible! The actual entry in Wikipedia continues with:In the event that a President is incapable of committing his/her duties as President, the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada becomes the acting president until a new president is elected.
*In the event that a President is incapable of committing his/her duties as President...*
So you subscribe to the notion that Yanukovich was NOT capable to perform his duties on the basis he was hiding from a violent mob who wanted to see him removed from office, right? Thus, you feel it legitimate for the Council to act immediately and decisively despite their failure to uphold and enforce the constitutional Article 105 to afford the President immunity during, protection from, and persecution of those unlawful acts of criminality against a duly elected president of Ukraine.
Show me exactly where did the Council properly executed the conduct of its Constitution whereas they made provisions for the protection and safety of the President to afford the opportunity for the President to formally resign his office if he so chooses? They failed in doing this. Conversely, "persons guilty of offending the honor and dignity of the President of Ukraine are brought to responsibility on the basis of the law". Such delegation of power without due process, based on the writings of Article 105 renders the actions of the Council unconstitutional.
Note that this does not even appear to require any sort of vote - it appears to be automatic. The resolution put to the Rada was this:
Please provide a citation for the official signed Presidential *withdrawal* of his constitutional powers (presidency). In the absence of such, impeachment would be the only legal way to go about removing him from office in strict accordance to the law.
Impeachment defined: Wiki: "...Impeachment is a formal process in which an official is accused of unlawful activity, the outcome of which, depending on the country, may include the removal of that official from office as well as criminal or civil punishment...."
Merriam: Impeach defined: a) to bring an accusation against; b) to charge with a crime or misdemeanor; specifically: to charge (a public official) before a competent tribunal with misconduct in office; c: to remove from office especially for misconduct
Nobody is claining that he resigned, but how can you say that Yanukovych did not abandon his office? He left his own country to seek safety/asylum in Russia. Even in eastern Europe, you cannot possibly be President of one country while living in another.
You just cited the Council's decision was based on his withdrawal from his constitutional powers (presidency).
See below:
Given that President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych withdrew from performing the constitutional powers. The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine hereby resolves:
Everything laid out thus far only tells me nothing in the entire attempt to remove Yanukovich from his presidency was both legal and lawful based on its Constitution. Conversely, the failure of the Parliament to provide and afford lawful observation and conduct of Article 105, makes all their ensuing actions criminal.
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Yup, and so should Russia.
FP i agree ,and dont we all
it should also be mentioned the uk is no exception here either imho ,there not exactly forthcomeing in upholding their commitment
for other countrys who have signed any international agreement with these partys it must make us stop and rethink the depth of ties and our own self sufficiencys
SX
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You challenged what I wrote and asked for a citation. I gave you the citation in full context of their Constitution to support what I previously written and you want to now debate based solely on your own personal interpretation of what it should mean.
It's not just MY interpretation - try asking a constitutional lawyer how they would interpret it. As far as I'm aware, there is not one constitutional democracy in the world that allows a President to act without the authority of his Parliament/Congress/whatever.
It was written directly below the *actual* oath written in their actual language. I gave you the citation for the entire content and all you took from it was somehow I'm being disingenuous likely because you couldn't read it or just too darn lazy to click on the link.
Did anyone say fudging?
I DID click on your link - where do you think I found the English translation? Why couldn't you be bothered including both versions in your original quote? It's important enough to be worth publishing within your post. The only one "fudging" here is you.
Read (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html)
*In the event that a President is incapable of committing his/her duties as President...*
So you subscribe to the notion that Yanukovich was NOT capable to perform his duties on the basis he was hiding from a violent mob who wanted to see him removed from office, right? Thus, you feel it legitimate for the Council to act immediately and decisively despite their failure to uphold and enforce the constitutional Article 105 to afford the President immunity during, protection from, and persecution of those unlawful acts of criminality against a duly elected president of Ukraine.
Had not Yanukovych already left Kyiv before this happened? In any case, it would be naïve to expect the members of the Rada itself to provide any physical protection - surely this is the responsibility of the Police, or whoever is in charge of national security. If Yanukovych was so sure of his popularity he would have no need of personal bodyguards.
Show me exactly where did the Council properly executed the conduct of its Constitution whereas they made provisions for the protection and safety of the President to afford the opportunity for the President to formally resign his office if he so chooses? They failed in doing this.
Which Article covers this?
Conversely, "persons guilty of offending the honor and dignity of the President of Ukraine are brought to responsibility on the basis of the law". Such delegation of power without due process, based on the writings of Article 105 renders the actions of the Council unconstitutional.
Please provide a citation for the official signed Presidential *withdrawal* of his constitutional powers (presidency). In the absence of such, impeachment would be the only legal way to go about removing him from office in strict accordance to the law.
Impeachment defined: Wiki: "...Impeachment is a formal process in which an official is accused of unlawful activity, the outcome of which, depending on the country, may include the removal of that official from office as well as criminal or civil punishment...."
Merriam: Impeach defined: a) to bring an accusation against; b) to charge with a crime or misdemeanor; specifically: to charge (a public official) before a competent tribunal with misconduct in office; c: to remove from office especially for misconduct
I'm well aware of what impeachment is. See my earlier post, where I stated that, as far as I could see, it's not actually possible to impeach the President because of his immunity from prosecution.
You just cited the Council's decision was based on his withdrawal from his constitutional powers (presidency).
Yup. If he's not there to act as President, it's not surprising that the Rada decided that they needed someone in charge. Again, to repeat what I wrote earlier, there doesn't even seem to be the need for a vote in such a case. The fact that the Rada DID bother to vote (and had no dissenters) is significant to me - it shows that everyone there had had enough of the mess that they were in.
See below:
Everything laid out thus far only tells me nothing in the entire attempt to remove Yanukovich from his presidency was both legal and lawful based on its Constitution. Conversely, the failure of the Parliament to provide and afford lawful observation and conduct of Article 105, makes all their ensuing actions criminal.
You have your opinion - others have theirs. Boethius - where are you?
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That depends on whose version of our history you read. If you read Russian version then of course today's 'Ukraine' is nothing more than Little Russia. Just that version unable to cover all historical facts doesn't matter how hard you try.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Delineatio_generalis_Camporum_Desertorum_vulgo_Ukraina_%281648%29.jpg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Delineatio_generalis_Camporum_Desertorum_vulgo_Ukraina_%281648%29.jpg
Thanks missAmeno. Even Putin is not claiming Ukraine is Russia. On April 17, Putin held his annual "Direct Line with Vladimir Putin" in a 3-hour, 54-minute live conference. Putin expressed that Crimea has long been Russian, yet did not describe southeastern Ukraine in the same manner.
"....we must admit that the ethnic composition of Crimea differs from that of southeastern Ukraine. These territories, as I just said, were transferred to Ukraine in the mid-1920s, and in 1954, Crimea was annexed to Ukraine for some reason as well."
"The ethnic composition of the population there [southeast Ukraine] is approximately 50-50. I have already mentioned that the final decision to return Crimea to the Russian Federation was only based on the results of the referendum. When I saw these results, and saw for myself that almost all residents voted for joining Russia, I repeat, we had no other choice and there could have been no other decision."
"The essential issue is how to ensure the legitimate rights and interests of ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in the southeast of Ukraine. I would like to remind you that what was called Novorossiya (New Russia) back in the tsarist days – Kharkov, Lugansk, Donetsk, Kherson, Nikolayev and Odessa – were not part of Ukraine back then. These territories were given to Ukraine in the 1920s by the Soviet government. Why? Who knows. They were won by Potyomkin and Catherine the Great in a series of well-known wars. The centre of that territory was Novorossiysk, so the region is called Novorossiya. Russia lost these territories for various reasons, but the people remained."
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missAmeno,
I am sad to report that Google Maps in its version for Russia now shows Crimea as part of Russia. The US version does not.
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"The ethnic composition of the population there [southeast Ukraine] is approximately 50-50. I have already mentioned that the final decision to return Crimea to the Russian Federation was only based on the results of the referendum. When I saw these results, and saw for myself that almost all residents voted for joining Russia, I repeat, we had no other choice and there could have been no other decision."
"The essential issue is how to ensure the legitimate rights and interests of ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in the southeast of Ukraine. I would like to remind you that what was called Novorossiya (New Russia) back in the tsarist days – Kharkov, Lugansk, Donetsk, Kherson, Nikolayev and Odessa – were not part of Ukraine back then. These territories were given to Ukraine in the 1920s by the Soviet government. Why? Who knows. They were won by Potyomkin and Catherine the Great in a series of well-known wars. The centre of that territory was Novorossiysk, so the region is called Novorossiya. Russia lost these territories for various reasons, but the people remained."
Putin is a liar yet, I am sure none of the callers referenced that one little eventuality?
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Putin is a liar yet, I am sure none of the callers referenced that one little eventuality?
In the conference Putin summarized the Crimea accession.
"The most obvious risk was that the Russian speaking population was threatened and that the threats were absolutely specific and tangible. This is what made Crimean residents, the people who live there, think about their future and ask Russia for help. This is what guided our decision….. Russia had never intended to annex any territories, or planned any military operations there, never."
"Our task was not to conduct a full-fledged military operation there, but it was to ensure people’s safety and security and a comfortable environment to express their will. We did that. But it would not have been possible without the Crimeans’ own strong resolution."
He acknowledged that the "little green men" were Russian.
"I did not hide the fact that our goal was to ensure proper conditions for the people of Crimea to be able to freely express their will. And so we had to take the necessary measures in order to prevent the situation in Crimea unfolding the way it is now unfolding in southeastern Ukraine. We didn’t want any tanks, any nationalist combat units or people with extreme views armed with automatic weapons. Of course, the Russian servicemen did back the Crimean self-defence forces. They acted in a civil but a decisive and professional manner, as I’ve already said."
"It was impossible to hold an open, honest, and dignified referendum and help people express their opinion in any other way. Still, bear in mind that there were more than 20,000 well-armed soldiers stationed in Crimea. In addition, there were 38 S-300 missile launchers, weapons depots and rounds of ammunition. It was imperative to prevent even the possibility of someone using these weapons against civilians."
FP, you may want to look at the lengthy transcript of the conference. One is available from the Washington Post, and it leads with a clip showing the American turncoat Edward Snowden asking him a question, and then pointing out that Putin lied with his answer to Snowden.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/transcript-vladimir-putins-april-17-qanda/2014/04/17/ff77b4a2-c635-11e3-8b9a-8e0977a24aeb_story.html
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Yup. If he's not there to act as President, it's not surprising that the Rada decided that they needed someone in charge. Again, to repeat what I wrote earlier, there doesn't even seem to be the need for a vote in such a case. The fact that the Rada DID bother to vote (and had no dissenters) is significant to me - it shows that everyone there had had enough of the mess that they were in.
Putin gave a different version in the 4-hour conference I referenced above.
"I’d like to go back a little to review recent events in Ukraine. As you know, President Yanukovych refused to sign the Association Agreement with the EU. No, he did not refuse to sign it, but said that he could not sign it on the EU conditions, because it would dramatically worsen the socioeconomic situation in Ukraine and affect Ukrainians. Yanukovych said that he needed more time to analyse the document and to discuss it together with Europeans. This provoked public unrest that eventually culminated in an unconstitutional coup, an armed seizure of power."
One person asked Putin, “.... while the President of Ukraine fled his country. Would you fight to the bitter end for your country’s independence?”
Putin: "First, I don’t agree that Yanukovych fled. He had to leave, but he did not flee from Kiev; he was on a regional trip while the presidential administration and government buildings were taken over in Kiev in breach of a signed agreement.
When Yanukovych signed the agreement on February 21, which was guaranteed by three European foreign ministers from Poland, France and Germany, he believed that this agreement would be honoured. Under it, Yanukovych pledged not to use the army or other armed force against protesters and to pull the Interior Ministry units, including the Berkut, out of Kiev, while the opposition was to withdraw from the occupied administrative buildings, dismantle the barricades and disarm its fighters. Yanukovych agreed to hold early parliamentary elections, to return to the 2004 constitution and to hold presidential elections in December 2014. Had they wanted it, he would have agreed to hold presidential elections in a month or a month and a half, because he was ready to agree to anything. But as soon as he left Kiev and pulled the Interior Ministry units out of the city, the opposition renewed its attacks, seizing the presidential administration building, among other government buildings and accomplishing a coup d’état in the full and classical meaning of the word."
Another asked, "Has he always been such a wimp and a turncoat?"
Putin: "You know, there is a Russian saying: “Heavy lies the crown.” The burden of responsibility on the shoulders of a head of state, whether large or small, is great. In critical moments, one relies on his or her own personal experience and moral values.
As for Mr Yanukovych, he fulfilled his duty in the way he considered possible and appropriate. Certainly, I spoke with him many times during the crisis and after he arrived in the Russian Federation. We talked about the possibility of using force, among other things. There can be different attitudes to this, but the essence of his answer was that he thought of using force many times but he said that he did not have the heart to sign the order to use force against his citizens."
Warms your heart knowing Yanukovych cared so much for his people. BTW, Putin seems to have slipped when he referred to him as Mr. Yanukovych, rather than President Yanukovych.
In that conference Putin did say that while Russia is not communicating with the interim President of Ukraine, the "ministers" of Ukraine remain unchanged and there is dialogue between them and Russian counterparts.
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BTW, Putin seems to have slipped when he referred to him as Mr. Yanukovych, rather than President Yanukovych.
Good catch and maybe not a slip. Putin thinks his strategy in east Ukraine is working which means the option of reinstalling Yanukovych as Ukraine's president by using military force is off the table for now.
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Since Ukraine resumed it's recent crackdown on militants, Russia has now issued an official warning if their interests in Ukraine are attacked, they will have the legal right to do the same thing they did in Georgia, which of course translates to an invasion. If one has friends and family in east Ukraine, tell them to brace themselves. If Ukraine is successful in pushing back the Russian backed militants, I believe Russia will find an excuse to send their army into Ukraine to protect their interests.
http://news.yahoo.com/biden-pledges-support-ukraines-pro-western-leaders-094545214.html
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RAF Typhoon scrambled today after two Russian planes strayed close to UK airspace off North-east Scotland today.
If the Russians start threatening us..they'll regret it...the Brits know how to fight a war.
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It's not just MY interpretation - try asking a constitutional lawyer how they would interpret it. As far as I'm aware, there is not one constitutional democracy in the world that allows a President to act without the authority of his Parliament/Congress/whatever....
Nice try but no cigar...
This is what I said: ..Considering he's the duly elected president, the power was given to him to decide for the people by proxy... - on the subject of foreign negotiations.
In which, you asked: "...Where's your proof (citation please) that this is legal? Is it written in the Ukrainian constitution (the earlier version - 2004? - not the one that Yanukovych rewrote himself) that the President may make totally unilateral decisions, without reference to the actual Government? This is the action of a dictator, not a "duly elected" President...."
So I then gave you the 'exact' citation accordingly with a quote: "...The President represents the country and government as a whole in international affairs. The President has the authority to conduct negotiations and sign treaties on behalf of the Ukrainian government. The right to recognize foreign nations rests solely with the President..... "
Having realized this exchange, instead of acknowledging I didn't make that sh!t up you instead decided to 'fudge' around based in how YOU interpret the words explained in the citation as though somehow what YOU think versus what was inscribed in their constitution matters more. LOL.
Did anyone say 'Fudging'?
...I DID click on your link - where do you think I found the English translation?
Then why the hell even bitch about anything if you found it in the provided citation I gave you to begin with?
...Why couldn't you be bothered including both versions in your original quote? It's important enough to be worth publishing within your post. The only one "fudging" here is you....
LOL. Couldn't be bothered? Are you this dense? I gave you the citation and everything you asked for and challenged PLUS even more (Oath). Lack of diligence on your part is your problem, not mine kiddo.
Did anyone say fudging'?
...Had not Yanukovych already left Kyiv before this happened? In any case, it would be naïve to expect the members of the Rada itself to provide any physical protection - surely this is the responsibility of the Police, or whoever is in charge of national security. If Yanukovych was so sure of his popularity he would have no need of personal bodyguards....
Supposition. Hyperbole. Speculations.
..Which Article covers this?...
Here's my supposition: Protection of heads-of-states is norm in any civilized nation, regardless of the content of its constitution. Even during civil/criminal deliberation, accusations or prosecution.
...I'm well aware of what impeachment is. See my earlier post, where I stated that, as far as I could see, it's not actually possible to impeach the President because of his immunity from prosecution...
Wrong. You obviously didn't understand what you read.
Article 111:
"The President of Ukraine may be removed from office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the procedure of impeachment, in the event that he or she commits state treason or other crime.
---my insert: Crimes you ask? What crimes? Read here (http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/24/ukraines-yanukovich-wanted-for-mass-murder/). FWIW, the Council had allegedly accused him of heinous crimes - thus impeachment procedures should have been observed, but wasn't properly, legally, conducted in accordance to below paragraph---
The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is initiated by the majority of the constitutional composition of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. To conduct the investigation, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine establishes a special temporary investigatory commission whose composition includes a special Prosecutor and special investigators. The conclusions and proposals of the temporary investigatory commission are considered at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. For cause, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, by no less than two-thirds of its constitutional composition, adopts a decision on the accusation of the President of Ukraine.
The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by no less than three-quarters of its constitutional composition, after the review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine and the receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and the receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of state treason or other crime."
They adopted a decision but never resolved to enforcement of that decision by either not meeting the required 3/4 vote of its council composition, or the total absence of the procedural protocol as stated above.
Eventually & rather conveniently, they simply declared 'he withdrew his powers' to oust him from office - WHICH - is illegal and unconstitutional. If you still can not understand this, don't fudge, ask.
...Yup. If he's not there to act as President, it's not surprising that the Rada decided that they needed someone in charge. Again, to repeat what I wrote earlier, there doesn't even seem to be the need for a vote in such a case. The fact that the Rada DID bother to vote (and had no dissenters) is significant to me - it shows that everyone there had had enough of the mess that they were in...
Wrong again.
Article 108:
"The President of Ukraine exercises his or her powers until the assumption of office by the newly elected President of Ukraine.
The powers of the President of Ukraine terminate prior to the expiration of term in cases of:
1. resignation;
2. inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
3. removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
4. death."
Which one in here applied in Yanukovich's case?
You have your opinion - others have theirs. Boethius - where are you?
No. I provided you facts, you gave me personal interpretations/opinions.
Did anyone say 'fudging'?
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Since Ukraine resumed it's recent crackdown on militants, Russia has now issued an official warning if their interests in Ukraine are attacked, they will have the legal right to do the same thing they did in Georgia, which of course translates to an invasion. If one has friends and family in east Ukraine, tell them to brace themselves. If Ukraine is successful in pushing back the Russian backed militants, I believe Russia will find an excuse to send their army into Ukraine to protect their interests.
http://news.yahoo.com/biden-pledges-support-ukraines-pro-western-leaders-094545214.html (http://news.yahoo.com/biden-pledges-support-ukraines-pro-western-leaders-094545214.html)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/dickhead_zpsa6374631.jpg)
This guy says it ain't happening in the win-win situation in Ukraine.
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Actually no, MissA. If I actually have to rely in Ukraine's historical data, I would rely on Ukrainian's version of it. I believe Toronto's Ukrainian Genealogy Group have a great version in short form of Ukraine's historical facts.
History info provided on Toronto Ukrainian Genealogy Group website is based on translation of some historic events from detailed scholarly synthesis (ten volumes) of Ukrainian history 'History of Ukraine-Rus' written by Mykhailo Hrushevskyi. Russia never liked and accepted this version of history, they have their own. The reason is so disliked by Russians is because Hrushevskyi in his ten volume monograph showed history of Ukrainians (as 'Ukrainian State') not only to the era of Kievan Rus, but also to the preceding period.
Short version of Ukrainian history on Toronto Ukrainian Genealogy Group website is good read for those of you who want to understand better conflict between Ukraine and Russia. Read it, pay attention where in chronological order mentioned Ukraine, Russia, Kiev, Moscow, any particular regions of Ukraine and at what time who ruled them, how many times Ukrainians been fighting wars and how many of those wars have been for independence, how many times Ukraine been occupied and by whom, etc.
The current transfer of leadership had gone from a corrupt politician to a corrupt politician and the population somehow believes this is progress.
And this is where you are wrong. My observation from communication with family, friends and reading views of average Ukrainians online is that people are well aware about level of corruption and what kind of politicians they have but they clearly understand that Russia is much bigger threat right now and they are prioritizing what is most important to deal with first.
Thanks missAmeno. Even Putin is not claiming Ukraine is Russia. On April 17, Putin held his annual "Direct Line with Vladimir Putin" in a 3-hour, 54-minute live conference. Putin expressed that Crimea has long been Russian, yet did not describe southeastern Ukraine in the same manner.
"....we must admit that the ethnic composition of Crimea differs from that of southeastern Ukraine. These territories, as I just said, were transferred to Ukraine in the mid-1920s, and in 1954, Crimea was annexed to Ukraine for some reason as well."
"The ethnic composition of the population there [southeast Ukraine] is approximately 50-50. I have already mentioned that the final decision to return Crimea to the Russian Federation was only based on the results of the referendum. When I saw these results, and saw for myself that almost all residents voted for joining Russia, I repeat, we had no other choice and there could have been no other decision."
"The essential issue is how to ensure the legitimate rights and interests of ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in the southeast of Ukraine. I would like to remind you that what was called Novorossiya (New Russia) back in the tsarist days – Kharkov, Lugansk, Donetsk, Kherson, Nikolayev and Odessa – were not part of Ukraine back then. These territories were given to Ukraine in the 1920s by the Soviet government. Why? Who knows. They were won by Potyomkin and Catherine the Great in a series of well-known wars. The centre of that territory was Novorossiysk, so the region is called Novorossiya. Russia lost these territories for various reasons, but the people remained."
The short version of Ukrainian history on Toronto Ukrainian Genealogy Group website (http://www.torugg.org/History/history_of_ukraine.html) will explain to some extend what Putin is talking about. Putin is as usual playing with words, he forgot to tell from whom Potyomkin and Catherine the Great won some of Ukrainian regions, he forgot to tell that reason Ukraine has so many Russian speakers is because Russia have been suppressing Ukrainian ethnicity, language and culture for centuries, he forgot to tell that Crimea was a gift to commemorate the 300th anniversary of the Treaty of Pereyaslav and that actual Treaty of Pereyaslav was a cause of the eventual domination of Ukraine by Russia while intention of it were no more than a pact of two equal, independent allies.
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History info provided on Toronto Ukrainian Genealogy Group website is based on translation of some historic events from detailed scholarly synthesis (ten volumes) of Ukrainian history 'History of Ukraine-Rus' written by Mykhailo Hrushevskyi. Russia never liked and accepted this version of history, they have their own. The reason is so disliked by Russians is because Hrushevskyi in his ten volume monograph showed history of Ukrainians (as 'Ukrainian State') not only to the era of Kievan Rus, but also to the preceding period.
Short version of Ukrainian history on Toronto Ukrainian Genealogy Group website is good read for those of you who want to understand better conflict between Ukraine and Russia. Read it, pay attention where in chronological order mentioned Ukraine, Russia, Kiev, Moscow, any particular regions of Ukraine and at what time who ruled them, how many times Ukrainians been fighting wars and how many of those wars have been for independence, how many times Ukraine been occupied and by whom, etc.
I'm glad we agree on this point. Here's the website: http://www.torugg.org/History/history_of_ukraine.html#PARTONE (http://www.torugg.org/History/history_of_ukraine.html#PARTONE)
...And this is where you are wrong. My observation from communication with family, friends and reading views of average Ukrainians online is that people are well aware about level of corruption and what kind of politicians they have but they clearly understand that Russia is much bigger threat right now and they are prioritizing what is most important to deal with first...
I do not disagree with Russian being front and center of Ukrainians concern at this time. As they should. However, don't ever believe taking 'Russia' out of the equation somehow diminishes the ills that faces Ukraine's plight today. Russia is but just one of Ukraine's problem.
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Since Ukraine resumed it's recent crackdown on militants, Russia has now issued an official warning if their interests in Ukraine are attacked, they will have the legal right to do the same thing they did in Georgia, which of course translates to an invasion. If one has friends and family in east Ukraine, tell them to brace themselves. If Ukraine is successful in pushing back the Russian backed militants, I believe Russia will find an excuse to send their army into Ukraine to protect their interests.
http://news.yahoo.com/biden-pledges-support-ukraines-pro-western-leaders-094545214.html
Do not want to disclose where my brother stationed now as government issued request not to mention location of Ukrainian troops online anymore but he says they are 'watched' all the time and high alert signaled several times per night.
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More "win-win" for Ukraine.
Sergei Lavrov's U-Turn On Invasion (http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-unspun-lavrov-u-turn-invasion/25359937.html)
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Do not want to disclose where my brother stationed now as government issued request not to mention location of Ukrainian troops online anymore but he says they are 'watched' all the time and high alert signaled several times per night.
Do you have contact with your brother or are you getting information from other relatives? Do you know if he is equipped with a good weapon, body armor and night vision goggles? If Russia attacks, they would probably start the attack when it's dark outside and it's why Ukrainian troops are on high alert at that time. Russian troops most likely are equipped with night vision goggles which gives them a big advantage. It's hard for Ukrainian soldiers to aim a weapon if they can't see the target.
While we have our disputes on the forum over what's right and wrong, we must not forget real people's lives are at stake. I hope the crisis ends peacefully and your brother will be fine. Russia's tough talk and determination to get what it wants leads us believe a peaceful solution is not going to happen. The truce before Easter didn't last long. Russia didn't even make an attempt to collect the weapons they issued to pro Russian Ukrainians and recall their special forces that's currently working in Ukraine which was part of the agreement.
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Do you have contact with your brother or are you getting information from other relatives? Do you know if he is equipped with a good weapon, body armor and night vision goggles? If Russia attacks, they would probably start the attack when it's dark outside and it's why Ukrainian troops are on high alert at that time. Russian troops most likely are equipped with night vision goggles which gives them a big advantage. It's hard for Ukrainian soldiers to aim a weapon if they can't see the target.
He tries to call my parents once a day from mobile, already it was not always possible (mobile switched on only to make a call). He is to extend vague in explaining situation as he uses mobile to call. On few occasions I was on phone with mum on one line at the same time as he was on another phone line so we were able to hear each other (you know habit of FSUW to have more than one mobile). Regarding equipment all I know is that prior deployment his unit for few weeks from early morning till late night been grenade launcher training and to him was issued one as well as uniform/equipment (again what exactly was included in equipment I never had a chance to ask, mum asks more questions along the lines if he had chance to sleep and/or eat today). My understanding high alerts are going because of attempts not because of possibilities, situation is much more serious.
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Justme100,
Where have you been? Still reading here I hope. How are things going on in Crimea? Wayne, who has a wife in Crimea, says in other threads that things aren't going so well over there. What's your opinion? Is Russia taking good care of you? How's inflation? Has prices on food and other necessities stayed the same or gone up? Are gas, water, and electricity in abundance or some people are faced with shortages?
Hello,Billy.I'm reading from time to time.
I haven't read Wayne's thread so I am not aware what problems he faces. Can describe only my personal perspective.
Things are going ok in Crimea - it's hot and beautiful spring. As to the results of our returning to Russia- well, there are 2 aspects here - emotional and economical. As to the first - people are glad we managed to do it. As to economical situation, it's worse. Prices has gone up for the majority of food and other everyday necessities - about 30-50%. Petrol- it was very expensive, but now as the Ukrainian resources here finished and we start to use Russian petrol prices gradually lower. Public transport fares - the same.
Salaries: all the workers who get their salaries from the budget will get more.Doctors, teachers, state workers and so on. The same with pensioners. Quite another situation for businesses. They are closing in their majority. Quite a lot of people are now workless.
The greatest problem are banks.The head of the biggest Ukraininan bank Kolomoyskiy has stolen millions of Crimean's people deposits. People just lost their money.also all the operations are blocked and the ATMs are not working, so all the payments can be done only in cash now, which is a great discomfort for sure. Long, extremely long queues everywhere...
We have no shortages with gas or electricity, however there is a problem with water for irrigation. Ukraine cutoff the water stream for us, so we have no water for fields irrigation for now. Rice fields died already. Local authorities started drilling works for water, but it will take some time, meanwhile it's hot here now and no rain at all, so I beleive there will be problems with vegetables crops too. Still there is enough water for daily use, so people don't have any shortage with water.
Former Ukrainian Navy headquarters officers in it's majority became Russian Navy. Among negatives - an awfull mess with papers and new laws...what to do, how to do - these are big questions there now. Among positives - our officers and other staff have to take sports exams in order to have good salary)It was funny to observe yestreday our depatment chief running on the stadium with his beer belly trembling))
For sure all the positive emotions of people here are blackened by the events in the West of Ukraine( It hurts to see what happens there. We managed to escape withoud any bloodshed, unfortunately it's not the case with them. There are thousands of Crimeans in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen.
Sevastopol mothers organisation is now making arrangements in order to take children from those regions into our homes for the time till the situation improves and let their parents fight without fear for their childern's life.
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My observation from communication with family, friends and reading views of average Ukrainians online is that people are well aware about level of corruption and what kind of politicians they have but they clearly understand that Russia is much bigger threat right now and they are prioritizing what is most important to deal with first
Sounds reasonable: deal with the worst evil first - hopefully, the lesser evil later ::)? Good luck.
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justme100,
Thank you for telling us the truth about the situation. The troubles you are experiencing hopefully are temporary as Crimea makes the transition to a new government. It is horrible that the Kolomoyskiy Bank confiscated everyone's deposits. That should sort itself out, yet is no comfort to those without cash.
I read Putin's comments about his plans to make large investments in shipbuilding, agriculture (output has declined 60% since 1990), and holiday infrastructure. Putin said none of the hotels meet Russian standards, and when the hotels were asked "...how former vacationers could have put up with this sort of quality, they heard this odd – and shameful – answer: 'It’s OK, we mostly had miners as guests here; it made no difference to them; they’d down half a glass of vodka and go to the beach.' "
It will take time to make these investments and realize economic development.
Towards the end of your post are these serious and troubling words, words that sound like the beginning of a civil war: "There are thousands of Crimeans in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen. "
Hopefully bloodshed can be avoided with diplomacy, yet Putin's diplomacy seems very harsh.
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I read Putin's comments about his plans to make large investments in shipbuilding, agriculture (output has declined 60% since 1990), and holiday infrastructure. Putin said none of the hotels meet Russian standards, and when the hotels were asked "...how former vacationers could have put up with this sort of quality, they heard this odd – and shameful – answer: 'It’s OK, we mostly had miners as guests here; it made no difference to them; they’d down half a glass of vodka and go to the beach.' "
It will take time to make these investments and realize economic development.
state hotels and in general state tourist infrastructure is in awful condition here. And the same shameful attitude as mentioned above is being applied to all tourists. Until locals get rid of it and understand that to have beautiful nature is not enough to attract normal tourists the tourist buisiness won't flourish here.
As to shipbuilding-yes, some factories already got their first orders.As to Sevastopol they say there will be fleet here for sure and also they plan to place submarines here. I do hope they will make our city closed as it was before.
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Sounds reasonable: deal with the worst evil first - hopefully, the lesser evil later ::)? Good luck.
It sounds like your family and friends have it figured out pretty well. As far as the former corrupt government of Ukraine, we all need to wait and see how the newly elected government does once in office.
I personally know that since Maiden, the judiciary and lower level government employees have almost completely stopped the graft that was present in every day life previously. Perhaps the messages got filtered down that the new government is serious about graft and corruption.
The interim government has only been in place a very short time. I think we should give them and the newly elected government some time to clean things up before we are too critical or keep blaming the past as though it will not change. Time will tell.
Yes, Russia is the enemy of Ukraine and it needs to be dealt with first.
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The interim government has only been in place a very short time. I think we should give them and the newly elected government some time to clean things up before we are too critical or keep blaming the past as though it will not change. Time will tell.
You are correct; there is hope that this time it will be different. The track record for the past 20 years says change will be difficult. Lifestyles have been based on corruption, and to remove it will take more than Elliot Ness.
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state hotels and in general state tourist infrastructure is in awful condition here. And the same shameful attitude as mentioned above is being applied to all tourists. Until locals get rid of it and understand that to have beautiful nature is not enough to attract normal tourists the tourist buisiness won't flourish here.
As to shipbuilding-yes, some factories already got their first orders.As to Sevastopol they say there will be fleet here for sure and also they plan to place submarines here. I do hope they will make our city closed as it was before.
Typical Soviet mentality! Hopefully, Crimea will be back in the hands of Ukraine before Russia makes such large investments. Otherwise they will be nationalized just like what Russia has done to Ukraine assets in Crimea.
Either you are terribly ignorant or are a professional propagandist for the Kremlin.
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I read Putin's comments about his plans to make large investments in shipbuilding, agriculture (output has declined 60% since 1990), and holiday infrastructure. Putin said none of the hotels meet Russian standards, and when the hotels were asked "...how former vacationers could have put up with this sort of quality, they heard this odd – and shameful – answer: 'It’s OK, we mostly had miners as guests here; it made no difference to them; they’d down half a glass of vodka and go to the beach.' "
I think I read yesterday or the day before that Putin would like to make Crimea a gambling zone, with Casinos.
Fathertime!
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My understanding high alerts are going because of attempts not because of possibilities, situation is much more serious.
I was under the assumption that some Ukrainian troops are busy chasing militants and the others are doing nothing but sitting and waiting in case of invasion. It seems all Ukrainian troops are busy. I suspect attempts to attack your brother's military unit are more to test their combat readiness than to take them over. I'm sure Russian generals are hard at work trying to learn Ukrainian troop locations, what equipment their using, size of units and their combat readiness to gain more advantages. When going into battle, a Russian general would be foolish to send a light infantry unit against a heavily armored Ukrainian tank battalion.
The greatest problem are banks.The head of the biggest Ukraininan bank Kolomoyskiy has stolen millions of Crimean's people deposits. People just lost their money.
Thanks for the update Justme100. It would be wise for all Ukrainians to take their money out banks right now. Anytime there is conflict and regime change, there's a big chance people will lose money kept in banks. My mother in law lost all the money she had in a Libyan bank after Libya's civil war.
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There are thousands of Crimeans in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen.
Thanks for the update justme100. It's great to get the real goods from someone on the ground there. :)
The above words jumped off the page for me too (as with Gator).
Can you please explain to us what you meant exactly?
Which Crimeans are in Donetsk (Ukrainian or Russian descent)?
What do you mean by "help everything happen"?
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I think I read yesterday or the day before that Putin would like to make Crimea a gambling zone, with Casinos.
Fathertime!
I don't think I'd be thrilled to hear from President Obama my neighborhood is only good for building Casinos. It's best for Putin to let smart business men build Crimea's economy but first Putin has to make a business friendly environment.
According to article below Russian foreign ministry issued a statement demanding that Ukraine pull its armed forces out of the crisis-ridden region. That's like telling Ukraine to pull it's troops out of Ukraine...... unless Russia doesn't consider east Ukraine part of Ukraine which translates to telling Ukraine to pull it's troops out of New Russia.
http://news.yahoo.com/amid-russian-warning-ukraines-security-bind-183618934.html
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It would be wise for all Ukrainians to take their money out banks right now. Anytime there is conflict and regime change, there's a big chance people will lose money kept in banks. My mother in law lost all the money she had in a Libyan bank after Libya's civil war.
Yes, unfortunately so(Privatbank made limitations long prior to referendum, so people could withdraw only 500 grivnas per day. All salaries, pensions, deposits people had on their Privatbank accounts - all went to mr.Kolomoyski.
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Thanks for the update justme100. It's great to get the real goods from someone on the ground there. :)
The above words jumped off the page for me too (as with Gator).
Can you please explain to us what you meant exactly?
Which Crimeans are in Donetsk (Ukrainian or Russian descent)?
What do you mean by "help everything happen"?
I didn't check their origin. People from those regions helped us when we had troubles in March, so now Crimean men gathered and went there to help them fight against pro-Fashington Junta.
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Yes, unfortunately so(Privatbank made limitations long prior to referendum, so people could withdraw only 500 grivnas per day. All salaries, pensions, deposits people had on their Privatbank accounts - all went to mr.Kolomoyski.
An often repeated story from FSU countries is how people don't save their money in banks, investments etc. there like we do in the west.
They prefer to spend their money while they can.
I guess this is as good an example as you're going to find for the reason why they do this.
(This ties into the 'non-greedy' mentality too).
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Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk "The World stands on the brink of conflict,the consequences of which are not foreseen.Not everyone in Europe is aware of this situation "
At least 7,000 Polish workers in Europe,including the UK,have received call-up papers as Army reservists in the last few weeks.
Meanwhile as the USA sends 600 Airborne troops into the Baltics,Russia starts naval exercises in the Caspian.
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There are thousands of Crimeans in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen.
this is the polite way to say the general male population [titushki etc ] have left to help destabilise the donestk region
the hotels iv stayed at in crimea in the last few visits have all been new and of great condition 4+ stars , same goes for cafes, restuarants etc , let alone the numerous ones being built right along the waterfront
tourist services have also been good
SX,
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Given that there is little to no work for Crimeans on Crimea-- being paid per day more than a normal months salary to go and play at being a thug would look very attractive!! Perhaps that explains the comment?
Russians will succeed at creating a generation of criminals on the Crimea.
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this is the polite way to say the general male population [titushki etc ] have left to help destabilise the donestk region
the hotels iv stayed at in crimea in the last few visits have all been new and of great condition 4+ stars , same goes for cafes, restuarants etc , let alone the numerous ones being built right along the waterfront
tourist services have also been good
SX,
Ditto!!
As you may recall from my trip report and photos, the housing, restaurants, etc in Sevastopol were very nice. Let's see how long it takes the Russians to screw it up.
So she says Russia will bring a submarine base to Crimea (again). I wonder if the photos I have of the underground sub base in Balaclava will be priceless because of a new secret sub base. ;D
Doubt it though. Unless Putin backs out of the START agreement, it is likely to remain START accountable.
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JUST ME All salaries, pensions, deposits people had on their Privatbank accounts - all went to mr.Kolomoyski.
one has to wonder if this is in retaliation ? one way mr kolomoyski can effectivley get some compensation for the loss of his property assets in crimea
being a ukraine citizen and hated by putin he may well have lost his property rights in crimea under the new [criminal regime of aksanov ] gov
how many banks did he have in crimea ? & what would there earning potential be
why is it ok for russia to steal ukraines property /assets etc in crimea to the tune of billions but not the reverse ?
hypocrisy at its worst
SX
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Account holders have not lost the money-- just not accessible in Crimea-- fwiw :)
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Nice try but no cigar...
This is what I said: ..Considering he's the duly elected president, the power was given to him to decide for the people by proxy... - on the subject of foreign negotiations.
In which, you asked: "...Where's your proof (citation please) that this is legal? Is it written in the Ukrainian constitution (the earlier version - 2004? - not the one that Yanukovych rewrote himself) that the President may make totally unilateral decisions, without reference to the actual Government? This is the action of a dictator, not a "duly elected" President...."
So I then gave you the 'exact' citation accordingly with a quote: "...The President represents the country and government as a whole in international affairs. The President has the authority to conduct negotiations and sign treaties on behalf of the Ukrainian government. The right to recognize foreign nations rests solely with the President..... "
Having realized this exchange, instead of acknowledging I didn't make that sh!t up you instead decided to 'fudge' around based in how YOU interpret the words explained in the citation as though somehow what YOU think versus what was inscribed in their constitution matters more. LOL.
For crying out loud! I never said that you made it up, so why should I need to acknowledge anything of that sort? "On behalf of the Government" means exactly that - it DOESN'T mean go ahead and do what the hell you want. The recognition of foreign nations is clearly written as a matter solely for the President - the preceding sentence is NOT.
Then why the hell even bitch about anything if you found it in the provided citation I gave you to begin with?
LOL. Couldn't be bothered? Are you this dense? I gave you the citation and everything you asked for and challenged PLUS even more (Oath). Lack of diligence on your part is your problem, not mine kiddo.
Again, read what I wrote: "It's important enough to be worth publishing within your post." Nothing to do with diligence, or lack of - there are very few members who read Ukrainian, so why not show the English version as well to make life simpler? Just an observation.
Supposition. Hyperbole. Speculations.
Crap.
Here's my supposition: Protection of heads-of-states is norm in any civilized nation, regardless of the content of its constitution. Even during civil/criminal deliberation, accusations or prosecution.
No problem - I agree with you on this. I'm just asking if the Ukrainian Constitution specifically refers to a particular organisation as the protector.
Wrong. You obviously didn't understand what you read.
Article 111:
"The President of Ukraine may be removed from office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the procedure of impeachment, in the event that he or she commits state treason or other crime.
I understood it perfectly, except that it's contradicted by the following:
Article 105:
The President of Ukraine enjoys the right of immunity during the term of authority. Persons guilty of offending the honor and dignity of the President of Ukraine are brought to responsibility on the basis of the law. The title of President of Ukraine is protected by law and is reserved for the President for life, unless the President of Ukraine has been removed from office by the procedure of impeachment (see impeachment reasons and process).
If he has the right of immunity (presumably from prosecution), is an accusation of treason or other crime(s) enough?
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Interesting article that gets the point.
http://www.dw.de/nato-should-act-now-not-later/a-17582668
"If Europe and the United States are unwilling to arm their diplomacy with small force now, they are condemned to use much greater force later, probably after they are attacked. Remember the Blitzkrieg and Pearl Harbor. History does not repeat itself but it rhymes."
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For crying out loud! I never said that you made it up, so why should I need to acknowledge anything of that sort? "On behalf of the Government" means exactly that - it DOESN'T mean go ahead and do what the hell you want. The recognition of foreign nations is clearly written as a matter solely for the President - the preceding sentence is NOT.
:rolleyes:
You can do one of two things, or both.
Either find the definition of *Authority* or search for its synonyms. Keep in mind the word I used in my post you initially challenged. You will be astounded to *see* - POWER will almost always be front and center in either exercise.
Nowhere in my post did I ever used absolute authority, absolute power, sole authority, sole power.
If that isn't good enough for you, then I happily leave this silliness in your state alone. You are chasing a ghost.
...Again, read what I wrote: "It's important enough to be worth publishing within your post." Nothing to do with diligence, or lack of - there are very few members who read Ukrainian, so why not show the English version as well to make life simpler? Just an observation....
Then you best read what *I* wrote. The oath provided to you in the post was *in addition to* (complimentary - secondary) to what was the primary intent of your request. A CITATION.
Crap.
Very predictable.
I understood it perfectly, except that it's contradicted by the following:
If he has the right of immunity (presumably from prosecution), is an accusation of treason or other crime(s) enough?
There is NO contradiction.
Article 111 is the State's (Ukraine) provision to ensure the integrity and protection of its Constitution and governance by affording itself a legal way to remove the President from power and service through the process of impeachment. Right of Immunity is given to the President during the term of authority *UNLESS* just cause for impeachment i.e. if proven and convicted of treason or criminality.
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I was under the assumption that some Ukrainian troops are busy chasing militants and the others are doing nothing but sitting and waiting in case of invasion. It seems all Ukrainian troops are busy. I suspect attempts to attack your brother's military unit are more to test their combat readiness than to take them over. I'm sure Russian generals are hard at work trying to learn Ukrainian troop locations, what equipment their using, size of units and their combat readiness to gain more advantages. When going into battle, a Russian general would be foolish to send a light infantry unit against a heavily armored Ukrainian tank battalion.
Do not know about all but from those that I know, they are sitting in strategically important location. When Russian attempts to cross border some of them will be first line of defense and by their quantities it looks like it will be really bloody invasion. Lets just say that I didn't expect my brother's unit to be half in size from what it is. Of course it is not same as quantities of Russian troops on Ukrainian border but it is not little either. And therefore I am inclined to think if those Ukrainian units have not been sitting where they are sitting Russian troops may have already crossed border. Russia demanding withdraw Ukrainian troops not without reason.
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this is the polite way to say the general male population [titushki etc ] have left to help destabilise the donestk region
the hotels iv stayed at in crimea in the last few visits have all been new and of great condition 4+ stars , same goes for cafes, restuarants etc , let alone the numerous ones being built right along the waterfront
tourist services have also been good
SX,
the key words here are " the hotels I have stayed." There are good hotels, no doubt. Mainly private ones. But in general state tourist infrastructure is in awful condition in Crimea - it's not a secret)
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An often repeated story from FSU countries is how people don't save their money in banks, investments etc. there like we do in the west.
They prefer to spend their money while they can.
I guess this is as good an example as you're going to find for the reason why they do this.
(This ties into the 'non-greedy' mentality too).
Well, yes, you are totally right. The money affair of 1990, when everybody in the former Soviet Union lost what they had on their accounts made a deep trace in people's mind.
This time people also tried to spend all the money they could buying anything possible just to invest it as grivna is heading its way to nowhere. Last week my father wanted to buy a car and as he visited auto salons there was nothing left. All the cars are bought and wait packed for new laws from Russia to be registered.
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Below is very interesting link of questions and answers of a key player resisting Russian invasion.
For those who pedantically keep trying to turn back the clock on the forum--events have run past the stupid point you attempt to re-hash ridiculously. It only highlights how little you comprehend about what has happened-- and what is going on-- so please-- spare us all your stupidity. In particular-- read this link.It covers a lot of issues that are CURRENT .So please-instead of running off to Wiki to get yesterdays "news"( debatable as Wiki is still an opinion)-- read this.
While I am at it-- there is no "win-win" here for anybody--over Crimean invasion--or the invasion Russia is attempting of mainland Ukraine. At a tenuous time in Ukraine's history the government needed to be able to get on with governing-- undoing the the damage of Yanukovych and cronies-- setting a path to the future.Instead-- Ukraine is engrossed in a battle to save their nationhood.It is totally contemptible behaviour from Russia-- from any nation-- but one most in Ukraine considered a close friend or family member it is extreme.The monetary cost to Ukraine when it could least afford it is disgusting-- but the sheer disruption to life in Ukraine is enormous.
One thing I am absoloutely sure of is that Russia and Russians are going to rue the day Putin decided to invade on the Crimean Ukraine.So be very clear--there will be no winners from that invasion or the one being attempted now.
If Ukraine is able to escape the clutches of Putins new Soviet state-- Ukrainians will have a real future and a chance at a proper life and society-- and that is something Russians will never have as long as Putinism attempts to turn back the clock and allows the crooks,thieves,liars to prevail in power in Russia.
Quoting from link--
"- Dnipropetrovsk region remains an island of stability in the southeast. How your team manages to thwart the efforts of separatists and maintain order in the area?
- In contrast to our neighbors, we did not miss the moment. After coming to power began to systematically deal with the necessary work. Do not want to say that the leadership of the neighboring regions do not. But we were able to take the necessary measures in time. "
http://news.liga.net/interview/politics/1458890-boris_filatov_my_razrushili_plany_putina_na_dnepropetrovsk.htm
ps if anyone has a problem translating this--pm me and I will send translated article-- it is worth reading as it covers a lot of current issues.
ps2-- forum has requested I do not post whole articles--regardless of relevance or potential importance-- it seems some are happier with nonsensical fools satisfying their ego's. :wallbash:
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At least the replies are gradually getting shorter...
Then you best read what *I* wrote. The oath provided to you in the post was *in addition to* (complimentary] complementary - secondary) to what was the primary intent of your request...
There...fixed that for you. Thanks, by the way.
There is NO contradiction.
Article 111 is the State's (Ukraine) provision to ensure the integrity and protection of its Constitution and governance by affording itself a legal way to remove the President from power and service through the process of impeachment. Right of Immunity is given to the President during the term of authority *UNLESS* just cause for impeachment i.e. if proven and convicted of treason or criminality.
So where in Article 105 does it state that immunity is given UNLESS etc? This is the very point I've been trying to make through several posts, and which you can't grasp. Although it would seem logical, there is nothing in what you've quoted of 105 to show this and, as I can't read Ukrainian (and I'm not willing to trust an online translator over something so fundamental), I would be happy to see an English translation from one of our UW.
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So where in Article 105 does it state that immunity is given UNLESS etc? This is the very point I've been trying to make through several posts, and which you can't grasp. Although it would seem logical, there is nothing in what you've quoted of 105 to show this and, as I can't read Ukrainian (and I'm not willing to trust an online translator over something so fundamental), I would be happy to see an English translation from one of our UW.
Anotherkiwi, I've cut and past article 105 below. The language is clear. According to the first sentence Yanukovych lost his immunity when he was ousted from the office he held. The last sentence means Yanukovych can keep his "title" for life unless he was impeached. Title simply goes in front of his name when addressing him, doesn't mean he keeps the job and the immunity for life. If he ever comes back to Ukraine, he will be tried, impeached, and imprisoned and no Ukrainian will ever be obligated to address him as President again as he sits behind bars.
Some people want Yanukovych to be President so they keep referring to article 111 as an argument he was illegally impeached. Article 111 shouldn't even be discussed and people are wasting a massive amount of time arguing about an impeachment that never happened. An impeachment bill was introduced by a pissed off lawmaker but was never entertained so there was never a vote in the Rada to impeach Yanukovych. Yanukovych was ousted the next day because he failed to perform his duties. The parliament didn't violate the constitution since the constitution never stated 3/4 is needed for a vote for someone who fails to show up for work. Even our constitutions doesn't cover everything and when issues pop up that aren't covered, the nation doesn't stop functioning. Lawmakers have the right to take actions and the courts can review those actions. Even Putin has stop calling Yanukovych a president. Some people need to let it go.
Article 105
The President of Ukraine enjoys the right of immunity during the term of authority.
Persons guilty of offending the honor and dignity of the President of Ukraine are brought to responsibility on the basis of the law.
The title of President of Ukraine is protected by law and is reserved for the President for life, unless the President of Ukraine has been removed from office by the procedure of impeachment.
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While I am at it-- there is no "win-win" here for anybody--over Crimean invasion--or the invasion Russia is attempting of mainland Ukraine. At a tenuous time in Ukraine's history the government needed to be able to get on with governing-- undoing the the damage of Yanukovych and cronies-- setting a path to the future.Instead-- Ukraine is engrossed in a battle to save their nationhood.It is totally contemptible behaviour from Russia-- from any nation-- but one most in Ukraine considered a close friend or family member it is extreme.The monetary cost to Ukraine when it could least afford it is disgusting-- but the sheer disruption to life in Ukraine is enormous.
One thing I am absoloutely sure of is that Russia and Russians are going to rue the day Putin decided to invade on the Crimean Ukraine.So be very clear--there will be no winners from that invasion or the one being attempted now.
If Ukraine is able to escape the clutches of Putins new Soviet state-- Ukrainians will have a real future and a chance at a proper life and society-- and that is something Russians will never have as long as Putinism attempts to turn back the clock and allows the crooks,thieves,liars to prevail in power in Russia.
Hey Jay,
As long as there isn't a bloody civil war or large unwelcome invasion from Russia, then there is potential for each side getting what much of what it wants. If that were to occur, then both sides could leave satisfied enough.
One thing that is unfortunate is the temporary 'representatives' of Ukraine probably can't come to a bargaining table with any sort of mandate....Perhaps when they have their election they can bring somebody to the table that can make decisions that will have long lasting implications. We shall see what those decisions/agreements wind up being.
Fathertime!
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There are thousands of Crimeans Russian Special Forces that left Crimea in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen.
There, fixed trhat for you.
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Somewhere out there, some shooting and burning along with Ukrainian forces. (http://censor.net.ua/photo_news/282494/shturm_slavyanska_5_terroristov_unichtojeno_sneseny_blokposty_fotoreportajvideo)
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There are thousands of Crimeans in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen.
Heh
It seems some of these boys are having a little difficulty with the local authorities (http://obozrevatel.com/politics/26719-sbu-zaderzhala-boevikov-organizatorov-zahvata-adminzdaniya-v-luganske-slavyanske-i-artemovske.htm)
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At least the replies are gradually getting shorter...
There...fixed that for you. Thanks, by the way....
No. Thank you!
I often forget the simple exercise when dealing with these two words.
"The generous complimentary wine was a nice complement to our delicious meal"
Sandro, Muzh, Gator, FP, Boethius? Thoughts?
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Russia started army and air force drills at Ukraine border in response to a few pro Russians dying last night. Drills may be used to scare Ukraine into backing off or a disguise for the initial mobilization of an invasion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/25/world/europe/ukraine-crisis.html?_r=0
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So, where's the meathead that augured a win-win for Ukraine since Russia will never invade?
Probably taking his massive head out of his ass for all I care.
Ready to Rumble?? (http://joinfo.ua/politic/906709_Senatori-RF-gotovyat-postanovlenie-vvode-voysk.html)
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It sounds like your family and friends have it figured out pretty well. As far as the former corrupt government of Ukraine, we all need to wait and see how the newly elected government does once in office.
I personally know that since Maiden, the judiciary and lower level government employees have almost completely stopped the graft that was present in every day life previously. Perhaps the messages got filtered down that the new government is serious about graft and corruption.
The interim government has only been in place a very short time. I think we should give them and the newly elected government some time to clean things up before we are too critical or keep blaming the past as though it will not change. Time will tell.
Yes, Russia is the enemy of Ukraine and it needs to be dealt with first.
How do you personally know that all government employees stopped the bribes?
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Anotherkiwi, I've cut and past article 105 below. The language is clear. According to the first sentence Yanukovych lost his immunity when he was ousted from the office he held. The last sentence means Yanukovych can keep his "title" for life unless he was impeached. Title simply goes in front of his name when addressing him, doesn't mean he keeps the job and the immunity for life. If he ever comes back to Ukraine, he will be tried, impeached, and imprisoned and no Ukrainian will ever be obligated to address him as President again as he sits behind bars.
Why would they start impeachment proceedings if he was already legally removed from office?
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The utter disconnect between America's diplomatic prnciples and practice has become so great that it is enbvoldening the country's adversaries. This is why, following Russia's seizure and annexation of Crimea, Putin is now trying to mold Ukraiune's eastern provinces into vassal regions, if not foment irredentism, in order to realize his dream of reconstruction the Russian Empire.
But it is not only America's rivals that are taking notice of Obama's passivity. The United States allies are also watching nervously, and the conclusions they appear to be drawing could harm its national security interests severely in the years and decades to come.
The lone actor most responsible for threatening world peace might unwittingly be US President Barack Obama (http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/yuriko-koike-singles-out-barack-obama-as-the-leader-most-responsible-for-endangering-world-peace)
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To follow Muzh's lead...
WESTERN SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA IS WORKING! EUROPEANS HAVE DONE IT AGAIN! (http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2014/04/18/shell-committed-to-russia-expansion-despite-sanctions/)
I believe Royal Dutch/Shell Oil is owned by (60%) Netherlands and (40%) Brits!
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To follow Muzh's lead...
WESTERN SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA IS WORKING! EUROPEANS HAVE DONE IT AGAIN! (http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2014/04/18/shell-committed-to-russia-expansion-despite-sanctions/)
I believe Royal Dutch/Shell Oil is owned by (60%) Netherlands and (40%) Brits!
LMFAO
Isn't that sweet?
That's why Putler is going to walk into Ukraine and disappear it from the map.
Semblances of Europe circa 1930s.
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LMFAO
Isn't that sweet?
That's why Putler is going to walk into Ukraine and disappear it from the map.
Semblances of Europe circa 1930s.
I'm not exactly sure how this sell-out silliness actually works because the UK and the Netherlands are EU members. I pegged this entire posturing from the beginning as a major USA sell-out all over again considering the divisions amongst Europeans (http://www.businessinsider.com/eu-and-sanctions-on-russia-2014-4) themselves on how much the sanction business, or Russia's punishment, equate to their respective economies.
The US is getting 'stooged' again. What's worst is, our soldiers are being sent stupidly into this conflict. Victoria Nuland was right in her vocal appreciation of the EU. I hope we can find a way to switch hit and cozy up with the BRICS (http://www.businessinsider.com/jim-oneill-ukraine-a-symptom-of-something-worse-2014-4#ixzz2zj4p9dkM) before this is all too late.
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Why would they start impeachment proceedings if he was already legally removed from office?
Guys (all who debate about impeachment, proceedings, constitution and law), it isn't really matter anymore. Neither of the things you debate about started conflict with Russia. Russia started annexation of Crimea while Yanukovych was still a president.
http://ru.krymr.com/content/article/25359933.html
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By the way каша заварилась in Belarus too
http://udf.by/news/politic/100539-predstaviteli-belarusi-poprosili-putina-navesti-poryadok-v-ukraine.html
http://udf.by/news/politic/100940-lukashenko-predupredil-chto-budet-esli-v-belarus-pridet-putin.html
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And on Ukrainian border everything raises to a new level.
Terrorists occupied in Slavyansk schools and kindergartens
http://freejournal.biz/article3895/index.html
while Ukrainian airspace violated three Russian military helicopters and Russian troops in the line of sight from the border
http://freejournal.biz/article3896/index.html
in response to which Ukraine put forward in the area of direct impact long-range multiple rocket launchers
http://freejournal.biz/article3899/index.html
all while terrorists who communicate with each other through special connection, console themselves by the approach of Russian troops to the state borders of Ukraine
http://expres.ua/news/2014/04/24/105422-prorosiyski-terorysty-vtishayut-sebe-informaciyeyu-te-kordonu-ukrayiny
and to spice up everything the Head of committee Hosduma of Russia announced that bring water into the Crimea from Kuban or Caucasus is impossible.
http://ru.krymr.com/content/article/25361511.html
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MsA...there actually is a few live streaming (videocam) websites in the significant cities presently under (*pending*) siege. Here's one good one complete with the latest photos and time line.
http://ukrstream.tv/en/videos/antitieroristichna_opieratsiia_u_slov_ians_ku_24_04_2014#.U1mMI1cvCac
Maybe you can find one that's actually a 'live videocam'?
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Guys (all who debate about impeachment, proceedings, constitution and law), it isn't really matter anymore. Neither of the things you debate about started conflict with Russia. Russia started annexation of Crimea while Yanukovych was still a president.
http://ru.krymr.com/content/article/25359933.html (http://ru.krymr.com/content/article/25359933.html)
I wasn't debating, I was asking a question. Also, this is a forum for discussion and debate so there is no reason to shut it down when it does happen. Regardless if it currently matters.
My prayers do go out to your family (especially your brother).
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So, where's the meathead that augured a win-win for Ukraine since Russia will never invade?
Will silly old man, thanks for the opportunity to restate my position!
I continue to steadfastly believe that the Russian troops are not going to invade unless other foreign forces become involved or something truly hideous occurs.
To this point there have been no significant foreign forces or atrocities AND there has been no Russian invasion...
Despite your wrong predictions, drivel, tantrums, and whining, YOU still have egg all over your face. :D
Fathertime!
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I continue to steadfastly believe that the Russian troops are not going to invade unless other foreign forces become involved or something truly hideous occurs.
To this point there have been no significant foreign forces or atrocities AND there has been no Russian invasion...
Fathertime!
Really-- this is past the point of the ridiculous. Russia HAS invaded Ukraine-- in this context I am not only referring to the Russian invasion of the Crimea--but Ukrainian mainland.
The fact is that Russian forces are on the Ukraine territory in many areas-- including military Russians acting under Russian military orders on Ukrainian mainland.
What has not happened ( YET) is overt Russian invasion of mainland eg-- tanks,air etc of military wearing Russian identification and stating exactly that.
Sp please--being ridiculously obtuse over semantics is a diversion. To you--and others that want to take ridiculous theoretical positons-please show some respect for Ukraine and its people--plus all the people on forums that have relative and friends in Ukraine.
Regardless of any other issues-- the Russian invasion of Ukraine should be condemned-- so lets hear that from you-and others.
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Really-- this is past the point of the ridiculous. Russia HAS invaded Ukraine-- in this context I am not only referring to the Russian invasion of the Crimea--but Ukrainian mainland.
The fact is that Russian forces are on the Ukraine territory in many areas-- including military Russians acting under Russian military orders on Ukrainian mainland.
What has not happened ( YET) is overt Russian invasion of mainland eg-- tanks,air etc of military wearing Russian identification and stating exactly that.
Sp please--being ridiculously obtuse over semantics is a diversion. To you--and others that want to take ridiculous theoretical positons-please show some respect for Ukraine and its people--plus all the people on forums that have relative and friends in Ukraine.
Regardless of any other issues-- the Russian invasion of Ukraine should be condemned-- so lets hear that from you-and others.
Well JayH, I don’t think you should read these posts of mine if you find them to be insulting. It would seem that quite a few others are ok with them. You have not seen me call for you to stop posting links that I think are slanted. Despite you being a non-resident of the USA, you haven’t seen me condemn you for posting links that demand US action. Should I be sensitive and insist that you worry about your own country’s involvement and not make demands on the USA? I’d rather just allow you to voice your opinion, while I voice mine.
To this point I have not seen a Russian invasion of the mainland. If you feel there has been an invasion and can prove it, I will stand corrected. Meanwhile I feel calling what has happened ‘an invasion’ is not correct…it may come to that, but it hasn’t yet.
Condemn what Russia has done? I won’t condemn it, because I think I can understand why it is happening and understand what I think is their position. I’m not endorsing it either. I’m just calling a spade a spade, from my point of view. I think we are getting a lot of phony high and mighty rhetoric from our 'representatives'...they probably have it all worked out how to profit from this and we just don't know it....
Fathertime!
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Fathertime,
You have been selling your soft-sell Russian propaganda over and over and over. Your assumption that you have many followers might be mistaken.
The most ridiculous statement that this is a win-win for both sides. How the hell is it a win for Ukraine when an aggressor invades and annexes part of your country. Your conclusion that the referendum in Crimea was a fair and honest vote and expressed the will of the citizens is crazy. It was a typical Soviet stunt out of the cold war playbook. It does not even make common sense! If the Russian speaking Ukrainians in Crimea were about 60%, you are assuming that these peaceful people that coexisted with everyone else in Crimea for years, would suddenly want to switch to a totalitarian government.
How much time have you spent in Ukraine and Crimea?
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Fathertime,
You have been selling your soft-sell Russian propaganda over and over and over. Your assumption that you have many followers might be mistaken.
Where did I say I had any “followers”? I don't think I have any ‘followers’, that is ok.
The most ridiculous statement that this is a win-win for both sides. How the hell is it a win for Ukraine when an aggressor invades and annexes part of your country. Your conclusion that the referendum in Crimea was a fair and honest vote and expressed the will of the citizens is crazy.
Where did I say the referendum was a “fair and honest vote”….I don’t recall ever saying that…you can prove me wrong by quoting me, but I don’t think you will find that quote….I realize that 97% did not vote for it, that doesn’t seem possible….. the majority of people in Crimea probably did want to be annexed, even major news outlets seem to agree with this....but I don't believe that it was 97%.
The most ridiculous statement that this is a win-win for both sides. How the hell is it a win for Ukraine when an aggressor invades and annexes part of your country
How can it be a win-win? Well I’m only offering a theory that it could be win-win, and yeah that is how I think it will go. The fact that Ukraine no longer has Crimea doesn't mean that this still can’t be a reasonably good situation when all is said and done…. The story isn't over yet and I see Ukraine coming out of this in reasonably good condition when it is all over all things considered….I can understand that you might be caught up in the moment…when the whole situation is settled we shall see if it is as bad as you seem to think it will be…I don’t think so….They just had a government usurped/overthrown..whatever you want to call it....I would expect things to be far from perfect for a while.
Fathertime!
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Fathertime,
You forgot to answer the question "How much time have you spent in Ukraine and/or Crimea?"
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Fathertime,
You forgot to answer the question "How much time have you spent in Ukraine and/or Crimea?"
Why do you care? You seem to think only people that have been there can have an opinion. How much can you communicate with your wife to even understand what is happening? I mean without a translator. You made a few trips and think you're an expert now, eh?
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I very much suspect that the US got involved for many reasons, profit being one of them.
Remember the Nuland - Pyatt phone call? Was this leak really a silly mistake by two officials who should have known better, or did they create this leak on purpose? I'll speculate here and say the call was meant to be intercepted. This was, in effect, the US telling Putin "You don't pull the strings anymore, we do. Our puppets will be in power, and if the EU doesn't like it, tuff!" For
obvious reasons the US could not make this statement publicly!
What's in it for the US? To start with, they have fostered support to weaken Russia's economy, and a weak Russia is one of the US foreign policy objectives. Do an internet search on "Brzezinski" and Russia's invasion of Afghanistan if you need more information.
Whether Putin fell for the phone call trap, or acted independently, one of the effects is that many European countries have stated they will increase military spending, and I doubt secondhand MIGs will be on their shopping lists.
US military exports can be very profitable.
Until recently Europe had no real need to look at alternatives to Russian gas. If Russia can be shown as an undesirable or unreliable trading partner, facilities to receive US gas could well be fast-tracked. Another win for US exports.
Of course, this does not excuse Putin's woeful behaviour in Ukraine, nor his theft of Crimea, and I sincerely hope that Ukraine remains intact and finally sheds herself of the thugs who have kept her people surpressed for so long.
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a weak Russia is one of the US foreign policy objectives.
Welcome to the forum Young Fred. Russia's foreign policy objective is to make America weak too. What scares you the most? A weak Russia or weak America? If Russia is weak, the world won't change much. If America is weak, the world will change a lot. Would you embrace a change like that or would you want your grandchildren to experience a dangerous world where America is weak? Compared to some of the events in history, I kind of like living in today's world. It's not so dangerous. Have you recently read about NATO members inviting American troops into their countries? How many nations fear America and have asked Russia to protect them?
Until recently Europe had no real need to look at alternatives to Russian gas. If Russia can be shown as an undesirable or unreliable trading partner, facilities to receive US gas could well be fast-tracked. Another win for US exports.
Obama is against tapping into America's fossil fuels. He's been holding up the Canadian pipeline that supposed to deliver oil into America for as long as he can. He's slowing other projects down too which in my opinion is hurting the economy and the country. If Ukraine is such a big money maker and American politicians are money hungry, you would've seen American troops in Ukraine by now for a guaranteed win. People tend to blame greed as the primary factor that shapes American foreign policy but they are mistaken. Both America and Russia desires Ukraine as a business partner but Russia and America will achieve their goals in different ways with one nation using force and bribes and the other using it's reputation as a reliable business partner as an influential tool.
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Why do you care? You seem to think only people that have been there can have an opinion. How much can you communicate with your wife to even understand what is happening? I mean without a translator. You made a few trips and think you're an expert now, eh?
I do not know what your interest,involvement,experience in/about Ukraine is-- but from many posts on this topic-- AND PREVIOUSLY-- I can see you are generally clueless. Now you trot out an attempt to insult Calmissile-- he has long ago been attacked on forums by many and sundry --he survived bigger fools than you.Now you make this insulting attempt to provoke-- and what is worse-- it is in a thread on a very serious topic.You are one of the few that tries to make threads about themselves- for what purpose? Who knows and who cares.
The guy you are attempting to attack has made many trips to Ukraine-- immerses himself in studying the current situation as he learns more each day.
From your posts and a few others--it is clear that your understanding is thin-- and the specific flaw I see in many-- stuck in an earlier point in time.Anyone can have an opinion--but repeating it over and over is a serious waste of forum space.The basis of how the opinion is formed also happens to be relevant.
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I very much suspect that the US got involved for many reasons, profit being one of them.
Remember the Nuland - Pyatt phone call? Was this leak really a silly mistake by two officials who should have known better, or did they create this leak on purpose? I'll speculate here and say the call was meant to be intercepted. This was, in effect, the US telling Putin "You don't pull the strings anymore, we do. Our puppets will be in power, and if the EU doesn't like it, tuff!" For
obvious reasons the US could not make this statement publicly!
What's in it for the US? To start with, they have fostered support to weaken Russia's economy, and a weak Russia is one of the US foreign policy objectives. Do an internet search on "Brzezinski" and Russia's invasion of Afghanistan if you need more information.
Whether Putin fell for the phone call trap, or acted independently, one of the effects is that many European countries have stated they will increase military spending, and I doubt secondhand MIGs will be on their shopping lists.
US military exports can be very profitable.
Until recently Europe had no real need to look at alternatives to Russian gas. If Russia can be shown as an undesirable or unreliable trading partner, facilities to receive US gas could well be fast-tracked. Another win for US exports.
Of course, this does not excuse Putin's woeful behaviour in Ukraine, nor his theft of Crimea, and I sincerely hope that Ukraine remains intact and finally sheds herself of the thugs who have kept her people surpressed for so long.
:welcome: First off a welcome to forum.
My comments are not aimed at you-- but are more general.
None of the Ukraine situation is about the US-nor the west in general.
It is about Ukrainians wanting a better life-- to rid themselves of corruption and exploitation. they want a better life and to create a real future for Ukraine.That leads them to look west-- in the desire to be a part of the world. That is the overriding sentiment that lead to Maidan.
The idea of a democratic Ukraine free of Russian influence( control?) was unacceptable to Putin and his ambitions.
No matter how many ways people try and blame the west or the USA-- it is misguided and misses the point dramatically of Ukrainians ambitions for a real future for their country as an INDEPENDANT country.
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"Novoshakhtinsk is 10 km from the border with Ukraine. youtube In Novoshakhtinsk noticed modern technology Residents of the border town of Rostov Oblast Novoshakhtinsk videotaped movement of Russian army . Among the military equipment seen BTR-80, the soldiers KAMAZ, URAL of fuel, propelled artillery ustavnovka "2S23". However, as we found out, is a modern technique. Also note that Novoshakhtinsk is 10 km from the border with Ukraine.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/koristuvachi-internetu-znyali-yak-rosiyska-armiya-zahodit-u-prikordonne-z-ukrayinoyu-misto-346846.html
The introduction of Russian troops in Ukraine - the issue soon. This follows from the statement of Senator of Federation Valery Shnyakina. The statement said that the Russian Federation Council is going to discuss the possibility of entering the Russian troops already next week, according to a story TSN.Ranok . Read more: Kyiv Kremlin gave two days to clarify the objectives of military exercises It is known that Russian troops already ten kilometers from the Ukrainian border, and appeared on the internet videos like streets Novoshakhtinsk Rostov region goes military equipment.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-vzhe-nayblizhchim-chasom-ogolosit-svoye-rishennya-pro-vvedennya-viysk-346998.html
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Guys (all who debate about impeachment, proceedings, constitution and law), it isn't really matter anymore. Neither of the things you debate about started conflict with Russia. Russia started annexation of Crimea while Yanukovych was still a president.
http://ru.krymr.com/content/article/25359933.html (http://ru.krymr.com/content/article/25359933.html)
Check your info before you post not to look so silly. ;D
http://aluse.net/медаль-за-возвращение-крыма-оказал.html
The same concerns the other links in your second post.
Try to watch videostreams from those places, then you will know the real info )
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Fathertime,
You forgot to answer the question "How much time have you spent in Ukraine and/or Crimea?"
I live in Crimea for 30 years and I can say that everything you say is stupid nonsence. :) Having totally washed brain you seem unable even to notice evident facts.I wonder how it can be for a man of your age. Usually even brainless ones manage to master thinking and analysing. Anyway, in general it doesn't matter what the USA goverment thinks about this, so for sure it evel less matter what calmisile thinks about this ;D You can keep on barking loud, it doesn't change anything)
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Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk.told the interim cabinet today in remarks broadcast live.
"Attempts at military conflict in Ukraine will lead to a military conflict in Europe.
The World has not yet forgotten World War 2,but Russia already wants to start World War 3 ".
Of course the pro-Russian posters on here know better,so is there any way of referring the Ukrainian government to this forum,so you can enlighten the Prime Minister with your superior knowledge and allay his fears ?
I'm sure they'll be particularly intrigued with fathertime's win/win for Ukraine analysis.
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The World has not yet forgotten World War 2,but Russia already wants to start World War 3 ".
Of course the pro-Russian posters on here know better,so is there any way of referring the Ukrainian government to this forum,so you can enlighten the Prime Minister with your superior knowledge and allay his fears ?
Don't worry for mr. Yacenuk, he was already enlighted this week, so he knows perfectly well what to do and what to say. Occupying president chair, Mr. Brennan showed perfectly well who is in real power in Ukraine now ;)
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i626/1404/52/1f470c383a33.jpg) (http://www.radikal.ru)
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An explosion near the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa has injured seven people, a news report said Friday.
The local news source Vzglyad of Odessa reported that a grenade thrown at a pro-government checkpoint outside the city had injured six Euromaidan activists and a police officer...
The head of police in the region announced this week that pro-Kiev activists would be accepted into special units that would guard checkpoints like the one attacked Friday.
Odessa, a largely Russian-speaking city on the Black Sea with a population of about 1 million, has been the site of increasing protests against the Ukrainian government in Kiev
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/498922.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+themoscowtimes%2Fnews+%28The+Moscow+Times+News%29
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Fathertime,
You forgot to answer the question "How much time have you spent in Ukraine and/or Crimea?"
Hey Calmissile,
1. I asked you a couple questions too....and you did answer either of them.
2. Of course nobody is obligated to answer questions.
-- I can see you are generally clueless. --he survived bigger fools than you.Now you make this insulting attempt to provoke--
I don't think LFU's opinion is 'clueless' or he is a fool. I do think that you are not fond of a dissenting opinion though... I, and perhaps a few others don't feel what is happening is as clean as you do. The responses certain members are pushing for will lead to disastrous results and US involvement which most of the US populous is against. [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
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Hey Calmissile,
1. I asked you a couple questions too....and you did answer either of them.
2. Of course nobody is obligated to answer questions.
I don't think LFU's opinion is 'clueless' or he is a fool. I do think that you are not fond of a dissenting opinion though... I, and perhaps a few others don't feel what is happening is as clean as you do. The responses certain members are pushing for will lead to disastrous results and US involvement which most of the US populous is against.
Fathertime!
FT, it just goes to show who is clueless or not. You got guys that visit once in awhile and then you have people that actually lived there. The guys who visit are acting like experts and telling those that lived there that they don't have a clue.
Even after living there I wouldn't see myself as an expert. It's people like Bo that I listen to when she talks about Ukraine. Her not posting is a pretty big loss for this forum, imo.
It's actually quite funny seeing how worked up these guys get over someone's opinion and how they try and put others down when they don't agree.
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I live in Crimea for 30 years and I can say that everything you say is stupid nonsence. :) Having totally washed brain you seem unable even to notice evident facts.I wonder how it can be for a man of your age. Usually even brainless ones manage to master thinking and analysing. Anyway, in general it doesn't matter what the USA goverment thinks about this, so for sure it evel less matter what calmisile thinks about this ;D You can keep on barking loud, it doesn't change anything)
justme, you obviously don't know half as much as guys like Jay. Jayh visited several times and has even driven a car. ;)
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I do not know what your interest,involvement,experience in/about Ukraine is-- but from many posts on this topic-- AND PREVIOUSLY-- I can see you are generally clueless. Now you trot out an attempt to insult Calmissile-- he has long ago been attacked on forums by many and sundry --he survived bigger fools than you.Now you make this insulting attempt to provoke-- and what is worse-- it is in a thread on a very serious topic.You are one of the few that tries to make threads about themselves- for what purpose? Who knows and who cares.
The guy you are attempting to attack has made many trips to Ukraine-- immerses himself in studying the current situation as he learns more each day.
From your posts and a few others--it is clear that your understanding is thin-- and the specific flaw I see in many-- stuck in an earlier point in time.Anyone can have an opinion--but repeating it over and over is a serious waste of forum space.The basis of how the opinion is formed also happens to be relevant.
Many trips, eh? Wow, I am floored by his expertise. Immerses himself, eh? Like marrying a woman who can't speak English. You all got me and obviously are experts.
You are overly dramatic in the whole thread. heck the whole forum. If you want to talk about forum waste we can discuss you and your posts for starters.
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I've been to the FSU many times, married someone who was born there and who communicates with people currently living there everyday. Does my knowledge of issues make me more right? Does it really matter? We have people posting here living in the FSU that can't agree on things. Truth is, just as what happened in Crimea, Ukraine's future on whether they exist or is annexed, will be decided by people not living in Ukraine.
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...
Even after living there I wouldn't see myself as an expert. It's people like Bo that I listen to when she talks about Ukraine. Her not posting is a pretty big loss for this forum, imo.
It's actually quite funny seeing how worked up these guys get over someone's opinion and how they try and put others down when they don't agree.
Aw, c'mon...
How can Boethius possibly know more than these sex-touring old farts? Many of these geezers have powers they don't even need to understand the languages spoken there to know every facet of their culture and society...especially their women.
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Many of these geezers have powers they don't even need to understand the languages spoken there to know every facet of their culture and society...especially their women.
I wander what is easier to reach, understand FSU women or know every facet of their culture and society. The former task seems for me to be more ambitious, so the latter could be just a first step to nail down the first one.
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Check your info before you post not to look so silly. ;D
http://aluse.net/медаль-за-возвращение-крыма-оказал.html
The same concerns the other links in your second post.
Try to watch videostreams from those places, then you will know the real info )
You do realize you are just wasting your own time?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C_%C2%AB%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%D0%B0%C2%BB
http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3328246-v-rossyy-uchredyly-medal-za-vozvraschenye-kryma
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2014/03/25/n_6037281.shtml
http://www.pravda.ru/news/districts/south/crimea/25-03-2014/1201682-davayza-0/
http://rbctv.rbc.ru/archive/main_news/text/562949990952377.shtml
http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=142324
http://www.ruslenta.com/index.php/production/23-zavozvrasheniekrima
http://kashin.guru/2014/03/25/secret/
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Today's news doesn't look any better than yesterday's...
U.S. urgently dispatching tanks to Europe
http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html (can someone confirm this?)
Russian citizens will be fingerprinted for Schengen visas beginning from January 2015
http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=500586
While Ukrainian military have been ordered to destroy without warning any armed units, if they cross the border of Ukraine
http://freejournal.biz/article3902/index.html
In meantime circus on the border gets more and more ridiculous. Russian soldiers have been playing dressing up games
(perhaps it is part of their extensive training these days): decorated themselves with peacekeepers logos and attempted
to cross Ukrainian order in Russian armored vehicles painted in UN peacekeepers colors.
http://tsn.ua/politika/na-luganschini-komunisti-sprobuvali-propustiti-rosiysku-armiyu-v-ukrayinu-347051.html
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Today's news doesn't look any better than yesterday's...
U.S. urgently dispatching tanks to Europe
http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html (http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html) (can someone confirm this?)...
Well, JayH likely knows more about this as he's on top of these things....I'm sure he'll come up with an article to cut/paste here.
As for me (what do I know), well, 4 things I saw on the video right away.
1. The train is Union Pacific Railroad system
2. The bridge looks like First Street bridge in downtown LA
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/untitled_zpse64f8f80.png) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/untitled_zpse64f8f80.png.html)
3. It is heading east. Likely heading towards 29 Palms marine base.
4. There's a blue sign (hardly legible) where you can barely read 'Los Angeles River' and a figure of a crane (35 seconds into the video).
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/lariver_zps29bf1647.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/lariver_zps29bf1647.jpg.html)
So, unless these M1A1 tanks departed from Universal Studios last Monday heading to the eastern board, crosses the Atlantic ocean by UPS, across Europe to Poland and unto Ukraine, I think Russia have nothing to worry about.
But let's wait until what the old geezers think about this.
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U.S. urgently dispatching tanks to Europe
http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html (can someone confirm this?)
A quick search failed to corroborate this.
The Obama administration has removed all operational combat tanks from Europe and key strike aircraft, limiting the options for a show of force to bolster eastern NATO allies as Russia contemplates invading Ukraine...
The Pentagon also could send a team of non-combatants into Ukraine to assess the threat posed by Russian troops, armor and fighter aircraft massing near its border, Mr. Coffey said.
“There really aren’t any military options,” said James Russell, an instructor at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif...
“For the first time in 70 years, there’s not a single U.S. tank on European soil that can be used for combat operations,” he said, adding that the Pentagon moved a few tanks back to the Continent for training purposes earlier this year.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/16/removal-of-military-gear-limits-options-for-us-nat/?page=all
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I don't think the USA is bringing our tanks over into Ukraine...that would be ridiculous...not to mention a huge escalation....
I think we would rather do things that really don't count for much...like the 650 troops we recently sent to a few of the nato allies...That just looks like a token effort..
Fathetime!
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U.S. urgently dispatching tanks to Europe
http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html (can someone confirm this?)
I read about this yesterday from the website below but it's all speculation so it's not worth reporting.
http://turnerradionetwork.com/news/449-pat
Video one shows freshly painted M1A1 tanks on a train. Could be that America sold them to another country. In times like these military sales go up. American soldiers would not be using the M1A1 tanks to spearhead a battle. M1A1 tanks can be over 20 years old. Our best fighting units will be using the M1A2 tanks which will soon be replaced by the M1A3. Also, America rarely sells our best technology to other countries. In conclusion, I can believe those tanks on a train are heading to a ship and leaving America but American soldiers will not be using them.
Second video shows Bradley fighting vehicles with missing turrets and Hemtt refueling tankers which have fresh paint. Another case of equipment to be sold?
Third video is a train with equipment from North Carolina which is on the east coast. Some of America's finest, rangers, airborne, special forces, and delta force are based in Ft. Bragg, North Carolina but I doubt Obama has sent our best units eastern Europe at this time. A good portion of the equipment on that train are stuff engineer units would use and their job would be to support armor and infantry units. With the mixed camouflage colors for fighting in different situations, the vehicles are coming from different units. Could be another case of America selling more old equipment.
The fourth video is a trainload of mixed armored vehicles with older paint. When I was stationed on the east coast, we'd load our equipment to do training in Arkansas and Ft. Irwin, California which is the army National training Center in the Mojave desert. That train is travelling through a desert and the equipment on it could be for our own training exercises.
I think we would rather do things that really don't count for much...like the 650 troops we recently sent to a few of the nato allies...That just looks like a token effort..
Our NATO allies publicly announce the strong commitment America has for it's allies but behind closed doors, they think a few hundred troops is a weak showing which reflects on Obama. Obama visited Europe over a week ago. If he were smart, he'd tell those NATO allies if you want more support from America, buy American. Although I'm all for supporting Ukraine with our military, I'm disappointed many of our NATO countries buy German and French hardware and expect us to do the bulk of the work when it comes to security.
In other news Obama promised more sanctions that are going to cost Russia within days if they don't stop meddling in Ukraine's affairs. We all know how tough "costs" are.
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I don't think the USA is bringing our tanks over into Ukraine...that would be ridiculous...not to mention a huge escalation....
Fathetime!
No body saying anything about supplying Ukraine. In article stated:
It is reported that the start of operations to transport troops to Europe U.S. gave on Monday,
with the objective to strengthen the European members of NATO. In other channels also reported about
the transfer of aviation reserves to the European continent.
I am able to find on news more info about aviation but unable to confirm from more reliable sources if
tanks and military vehicles shown in videos really heading to Europe.
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unable to confirm from more reliable sources if
tanks and military vehicles shown in videos really heading to Europe.
Don't spend too much time looking for evidence if heavy armor equipment is headed to Europe. There are some pro Ukrainian journalists that's trying too hard to look for and report any serious support from America. There is none period. There's even less support from Europe. Before Obama commits heavy armor and American troops, he would send small arms to help Ukraine defend themselves which he hasn't done.
Don't expect Obama to make any more moves past a few more sanctions, and shifting a few hundred American troops to eastern European NATO countries to stop them from begging us for help. America does not have enough forces near Ukraine to stop or discourage a Russian invasion. Lots of citizens would have to die, like in Syria, before Obama commits to arming them. Chances are if Russia goes in, it would be too late to react. They plan to dominate, not drag a war on for years.
In other news Russian fighter jets have entered Ukrainian airspace multiple times. Russia is probably doing this in response to Obama's threat of sanctions, testing Ukrainian's radar systems and readiness, or probably wanting a jet to get shot down so they have an excuse that Ukraine attacked Russia first. All it takes is one incident to start a war.
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27 April 2014 Last updated at 08:07 ET
Ukraine crisis: Pro-Russian gunmen show seized monitors (http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74471000/jpg/_74471090_74471089.jpg) The European monitors said they had not been mistreated Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27177666#story_continues_1)
Pro-Russian gunmen in eastern Ukraine have shown seized European military observers to the media, amid attempts to secure their immediate release.
One of the observers presented in the city of Sloviansk said that none of the group had been harmed.
A team from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation is hoping to begin negotiations with the militia.
The gunmen continue to occupy official buildings in a dozen eastern cities, defying the government in Kiev.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27177666
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Pro-Russian gunmen show seized monitors
OSCE inspectors look not bad. Just separatist forgot to show 5 Ukrainian guys that were kidnapped together with OSCE inspectors. Haven't told even if they are alive or not.
Another 3 Ukrainian officers that also were kidnapped for sure do not look as good as OSCE inspectors.
(http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/preview/554/554800_w_300.jpg)
But at least people know now why life of Ukrainians suddenly doesn't cost anything anymore
http://www.globalresearch.ca/beneath-the-ukraine-crisis-shale-gas/5379228
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[quote ] FT Despite you being a non-resident of the USA, you haven’t seen me condemn you for posting links that demand US action. Should I be sensitive and insist that you worry about your own country’s involvement and not make demands on the USA? I’d rather just allow you to voice your opinion, while I voice mine. [/quote]
FT , im hoping your opinion like JUST ME,s is not in line with the majoritys ,
you seem to be reluctant to grasp the US along with others , sign a memorandum of understanding with ukraine when it handed over its nuclear arsenal , whichever way people wish to spin it , most people of good moral values understood that meant something , hence the common view of onlookers that the US has an obligation to uphold in ukraine , at present it is slowly moving in that direction ,
ask yourself this question , why would ukraine give up it nuclear arsenal if it did not honeslty trust the budapest signatories to honour their commitment
for people like my family ,, miss A muzh etc we have family there , they are among your win /win human participants you keep talking about ,
understand quite clearly it is not a win/win not for the vast majority in ukraine
while some may spin it otherwise this is one mans [putins ] long range clever strategic orchestration of events to suit his own aims ,
he isnt finnished yet , while politicians postulate and talk , etc etc , this is moving into a full scale stealth takeover on the ground in ukraine , invasion , yes , it is exactly that
proof ?? its there , plenty of it ,
SX
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Klitschko gives an interview on the events.
Language? We have to support Russian language? Sorry, in East Ukraine, only 54 percent of schools are Ukrainian speaking. Every parent has the right to choose which school they send their children to. In Crimea there are 650 schools, just seven of them are Ukrainian-speaking. And people say we are threatening the speaking of Russian? It's just propaganda. It's not true.
Right now the people who lost power -- the [Ukrainian] politicians -- are trying to use propaganda to try to divide the country. No one in Ukraine who speaks Russian is under threat or is unable to speak Russian in any part of the country. Equally, no one Ukrainian-speaking has a problem speaking Ukrainian in any part of the county.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/04/27/what_is_happening_in_ukraine_is_dangerous_for_russia_vitali_klitschko (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/04/27/what_is_happening_in_ukraine_is_dangerous_for_russia_vitali_klitschko)
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But at least people know now why life of Ukrainians suddenly doesn't cost anything anymore
http://www.globalresearch.ca/beneath-the-ukraine-crisis-shale-gas/5379228
The shale formation in the east Ukraine is the larger of the two formations. It underlies the exact territory being contested by pro-Russian separatists.
The shale gas in Ukraine is promising yet still unproven, hence the development contracts with Shell and Chevron. The shale could replace the gas that Ukraine now imports from Russia. It is not a huge reserve that could alter the big picture for Europe's energy imports.
For sure Moscow does not want these formations developed. One reason is that it would reduce Russia's exports of gas. A bigger reason is that if Ukrainian shale is developed it likely will demonstrate that the environmental impacts are manageable. This could prompt other European countries to develop their shale formations, and that would eliminate Europe's need for any Russian gas.
Also, keep in mind that a large majority of Russia's total energy export revenues derive from oil, not gas. The shale gas is important but surely would not be an economic reason for Russia to seize Eastern Ukraine.
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Obama has added new sanctions on a few Russian people and companies and admitted he's not sure they're going to work. Duh, of course they're not going to work. The value of east Ukraine is worth the loss resulting from a few sanctions.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/28/obama-says-us-will-impose-new-sanctions-on-russian-individuals-companies/
I was looking for some info about Ukraine's military and learned they have the second largest in Europe behind Russia's. Their military is larger than any NATO member's military except America's but most of their military is in reserve and not combat ready from being old and out of shape. I also suspect many of those reserves have not shown up for work if they are pro Russian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel
I was surprise to learn America's military personnel numbered 2,291,910 which is the 9th largest military in the world. Many of the bad players such as North Korea and Iran has personnel in their military than America's. America does rank 2nd in active personnel which is really what counts since troops are fresh trained and youthful which is the time men are physically at their best.
Russia 3,250,000 personnel which is the 7th largest in the world.
Ukraine 1,214,900 but only 130,000 are active duty. The reserves will be out of shape and have poor gear if they're called up.
Here are the top 5 NATO countries total military personnel excluding America.
Turkey 1,087,930
Poland 663,000
Greece 461,600
France 413,469
UK 387,570
I thought Germany, Spain and Italy would've made the top 5 but it doesn't seem that way. Many NATO countries are weak to handle a Russian invasion alone but as a collective group and with America, it discourages any country from invading.
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...I am able to find on news more info about aviation but unable to confirm from more reliable sources if tanks and military vehicles shown in videos really heading to Europe.
MissA-
The reality in this, IMO, is...all of Ukraine's military equipment are remnants from the Soviet-era technology. FWIW, is pretty much outdated. More importantly, Russia is fully aware of its capabilities, quantity and more than likely - the current condition of each piece. After all, most of this will be information generally available from the pro-Russian Ukraine nationals.
The only chance Ukraine has of countering current Russian military ware is getting imports largely from the US, and in smaller measure, the EU. But the actual chances of that happening is slim to none. I know our current political leadership aren't the sharpest tools in the shed but it will be highly foolish to 'give' Ukraine top line military equipment for her defense because that'll be akin to giving away 'classified' technological advantage the US may have militarily knowing the kinship between Ukraine/Russia.
But if McCain does again what McCain is good at - blindly and idiotically give away advance weaponry to anyone whom he feels need it e.g. like Al Qaeda for instance; then maybe Ukraine can 'prolong' a war against Russia maybe a week. Plus or minus a day or so (if a war breaks-out).
As for the EU, the sentiment there is (as is the case in Germany, erm...Merkel's homebase), sanctions against Russia is generally disfavored by its citizenry (see protest against sanctions)- much less contributing to or assisting with, military incursion. But trust me on this, they'll readily and happily reap whatever they can milk out of Ukraine whether directly through Ukraine's government or by Russian hand-out (to the victor goes the spoil). They're a pretty smart bunch about these things, you know.
In short, even if Ukraine gets equipment from the US/Internationally, it'll very likely be generally outdated weaponry. They'll be equal to, or less than, what Ukraine already have on hand.
Just my opinion...Ukraine have a much better chance of diplomatically dealing with Russia directly and save much of its country and citizenry and shun the west altogether. One way or another, the EU will suck Ukraine's gas anyway whether Ukraine is intact or otherwise.
This article from the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/27/russia-motivations-ukraine-crisis) is one of the very few to come out of the western media that actually makes sense in some of the aspects of this crisis.
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This article from the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/27/russia-motivations-ukraine-crisis) is one of the very few to come out of the western media that actually makes sense in some of the aspects of this crisis.
But have you read the comments that follow? :o I honestly can't believe that there is so much tripe out there, much of it (apparently) from people living in the US or UK. It's actually truly frightening to realise that so many people must actually believe what they've written.
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This article from the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/27/russia-motivations-ukraine-crisis) is one of the very few to come out of the western media that actually makes sense in some of the aspects of this crisis.
I agree with almost every word of this article. good find!
But if McCain does again what McCain is good at - blindly and idiotically give away advance weaponry to anyone whom he feels need it e.g. like Al Qaeda for instance; then maybe Ukraine can 'prolong' a war against Russia maybe a week. Plus or minus a day or so (if a war breaks-out).
Thankfully McCain is losing his clout all the time...I think...
Just my opinion...Ukraine have a much better chance of diplomatically dealing with Russia directly and save much of its country and citizenry and shun the west altogether. One way or another, the EU will suck Ukraine's gas anyway whether Ukraine is intact or otherwise.
This is what I also think the leaders of Ukraine should be focusing on, when the election finally does take place....Russia doesn't want to occupy mainland Ukraine (if they did, they would have already taken it)...but they do want a friendly neighbor, AND the west to stay out....don't blame them...of course this is just my opinion, in trying to look at the situation from Russia's perspective.
Fathertime!
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Russia doesn't want to occupy mainland Ukraine (if they did, they would have already taken it)...but they do want a friendly neighbor,
Fathertime, Russia is occupying mainland Ukraine, not as much as what is predicted to be in the future but they are there. If Russian operatives can initiate a rigged election like in Crimea, Russia will happily annex Ukraine instead of letting them be a friendly neighbor. Putin, in his speeches, never mentions east Ukraine anymore. He calls the area New Russia.
MissAmeno's brother and his unit are on high alert multiple times a night every night. Russia is currently depriving sleep to Ukrainian troops exhausting them so that if they do decide to invade, they will have another added advantage. Putin is not taking anything off the table when it comes to covert operations to start a civil war or military options based off his current actions.
I honestly can't believe that there is so much tripe out there, much of it (apparently) from people living in the US or UK. It's actually truly frightening to realise that so many people must actually believe what they've written.
People are entitled to their opinion just like the author and that is more fuel for Putin to continue to do what he's doing. People sympathize with Putin and feels he has a right to enter into someone else's home and claim it as his own. The more actions Putin takes, the more support from citizens of Russia he gets too. It's at 80% right now and Putin knows it'll climb higher if he takes more of Ukraine.
Let's be real. There's less than one month before elections and Russia has east Ukraine in a mess. There were no problems there before Crimea. After Putin was done in Crimea, that's when he started problems there. Now, international observers are getting held hostage. How are they going to monitor elections if they are taken hostage? Putin won't recognize Ukraine's new president come May 25. Putin has no interest letting the majority of Ukrainians have a say in their country's future. He doesn't want a friendly neighbor, he wants a submissive neighbor with his puppet in charge or better yet, annexation.
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Russia doesn't want to occupy mainland Ukraine (if they did, they would have already taken it)...but they do want a friendly neighbor, AND the west to stay out....don't blame them...of course this is just my opinion, in trying to look at the situation from Russia's perspective.
Fathertime!
Fathertime, I am sorry if I am too harsh but you are an idiot (...of course this is just my opinion, in trying to look at the situation from common sense perspective).
Russia's perspective is not 'friendly neighbor' but a close Eurasia state in which Russia would dominate surrounding countries. If you wish to live in such state флаг Вам в руки и идите 'За Россию матушку вперед!' Ukrainians already have been there and desire to be there once again do not have.
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Just my opinion...Ukraine have a much better chance of diplomatically dealing with Russia directly and save much of its country and citizenry and shun the west altogether. One way or another, the EU will suck Ukraine's gas anyway whether Ukraine is intact or otherwise.
And do you have suggestions how to do that? Give away Ukraine to them? Take Yanuckovych back? Make Russian our first and the only one language?
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Russia's Defence Minister Sergey Shoigu has described NATO troops massing near Russian borders as "Unprecedented"
On Monday NATO continued to increase its presence in the Baltic regions as UK and France deployed eight fighter jets to Lithuania and Poland.
Four UK Typhoon jets touched down in Lithuania and four French Rafale jets landed in North-east Poland.
Russia is starting to get worried...as they realise Putler has made a huge miscalculation...but of course RTS won't admit that...must keep that Russian nationalistic fervour going eh ?
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It's a boring thing to carry on counterpropaganda. But this time it's a real fun so I'll spend my time for a post.
Recent article in NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/world/europe/photos-link-masked-men-in-east-ukraine-to-russia.html
I'll cite excepts from this article:
For two weeks, the mysteriously well-armed, professional gunmen known as “green men” have seized Ukrainian government sites in town after town, igniting a brush fire of separatist unrest across eastern Ukraine. Strenuous denials from the Kremlin have closely followed each accusation by Ukrainian officials that the world was witnessing a stealthy invasion by Russian forces.
OK, the Russians are coming!! No questions, who are they?
And Ukraine’s state security service has identified one Russian reported to be active among the green men as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov, a Russian military intelligence operative in his mid- to late 50s. He is said to have a long résumé of undercover service with the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Russian general staff.
Here is he, GRU colonel according to Ukrainian secret service:
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38024980/1146910/1146910_original.jpg)
Real name: Igor Girkin. He's a well known participant in a LARP (live action role-playing game) and was active in thematic fora. He has served in FSB in small ranks as he acknowledged in forum agenda. Now he plays a star role of commander-in-chief of Self-Defence Force of Donetsk. Before that:
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38024980/1142989/1142989_original.jpg)
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38024980/1143290/1143290_original.jpg)
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38024980/1143888/1143888_original.jpg)
Another russian "special forces" man:
Another features a portly bearded man photographed in Slovyansk on April 14, wearing a camouflage uniform without insignia. Six years earlier, he had been photographed during Russia’s invasion of Georgia with a Russian special forces patch on his left arm.
There are very detailed photos where one can see clearly the only one common feature between men in Georgia and in Slovyansk, their beard. The talk is about this man:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9107/163146787.418/0_102d8a_f26254d2_XL.jpg)
He is a Cossack from Krasnodar region (south Russia). American reporter has interviewed him a day after the State Department spokeswoman held Russia responsible for armed militants in eastern Ukraine.
Real name: Alexander Mozhaev. He is a runaway from Russia where he was charged with knifing. Picturesque guy is inspired bloggers for creative artworks to show dreadful Spetsnaz:
(http://sputnikipogrom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/gamex.jpg)
Showmen and freaks take over Ukraine, not the Russian spetsnaz as US State Department want us to believe.
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It's a boring thing to carry on counterpropaganda. But this time it's a real fun so I'll spend my time for a post.
Recent article in NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/world/europe/photos-link-masked-men-in-east-ukraine-to-russia.html
I'll cite excepts from this article:
OK, the Russians are coming!! No questions, who are they?
Real name: Igor Girkin. He's a well known participant in a LARP (live action role-playing game) and was active in thematic fora. He has served in FSB in small ranks as he acknowledged in forum agenda. Now he plays a star role of commander-in-chief of Self-Defence Force of Donetsk. Before that:
Another russian "special forces" man:
There are very detailed photos where one can see clearly the only one common feature between men in Georgia and in Slovyansk, their beard. The talk is about this man:
He is a Cossack from Krasnodar region (south Russia). American reporter has interviewed him a day after the State Department spokeswoman held Russia responsible for armed militants in eastern Ukraine.
Real name: Alexander Mozhaev. He is a runaway from Russia where he was charged with knifing. Picturesque guy is inspired bloggers for creative artworks to show dreadful Spetsnaz:
Showmen and freaks take over Ukraine, not the Russian spetsnaz as US State Department want us to believe.
The United States has proof that the Russian government in Moscow is running a network of spies inside eastern Ukraine because the U.S. government has recordings of their conversations, Secretary of State John Kerry said in a closed-door meeting Friday.
“Intel is producing taped conversations of intelligence operatives taking their orders from Moscow and everybody can tell the difference in the accents, in the idioms, in the language. We know exactly who’s giving those orders, we know where they are coming from,” Kerry said at a private meeting of the Trilateral Commission in Washington. A recording of Kerry’s remarks was obtained by The Daily Beast.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html)
That's very Putinesque of you Belvis. Deny, deny, deny. When caught lie again and deny, deny, deny
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Fathertime, I am sorry if I am too harsh but you are an idiot
As much as you would like to silence these sort of opinions, your emotional response just provides evidence that you are powerless to do so. The article (and many others like it) shows things from the Russian perspective, and run counter to the narrative that YOU insist is full of truth. Quite a few people don’t believe our western media (or representatives), which have been known to distort things, as I think was happening in this case.
I would suspect there are some Russian forces helping stir things up...but it appears to me that there is quite a bit of support within Ukraine.
Fathertime!
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You do realize you are just wasting your own time?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C_%C2%AB%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%D0%B0%C2%BB (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C_%C2%AB%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%D0%B0%C2%BB)
http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3328246-v-rossyy-uchredyly-medal-za-vozvraschenye-kryma (http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3328246-v-rossyy-uchredyly-medal-za-vozvraschenye-kryma)
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2014/03/25/n_6037281.shtml (http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2014/03/25/n_6037281.shtml)
http://www.pravda.ru/news/districts/south/crimea/25-03-2014/1201682-davayza-0/ (http://www.pravda.ru/news/districts/south/crimea/25-03-2014/1201682-davayza-0/)
http://rbctv.rbc.ru/archive/main_news/text/562949990952377.shtml (http://rbctv.rbc.ru/archive/main_news/text/562949990952377.shtml)
http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=142324 (http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=142324)
http://www.ruslenta.com/index.php/production/23-zavozvrasheniekrima (http://www.ruslenta.com/index.php/production/23-zavozvrasheniekrima)
http://kashin.guru/2014/03/25/secret/ (http://kashin.guru/2014/03/25/secret/)
I obviously don't like to waste my time so I'm not going to give you the same list of links from the same crappy sources as yours. The rumours had it for sveral weeks already and long ago it was announced it was a fake. Even one of the most pro-ukrainian sources admits it was a fake.
http://zaxid.net/home/showSingleNews.do?medal_za_vozvrashhenie_kryima_viyavilas_feykom&objectId=1305266
Although, why not?
Crmean defence really started in February. In the middle of the month when the Nazi busters from Maidan strted to take control over the administration buildings all over Ukraine, robbering guns from police departments. Shouting aloud on every corner - Ukraine is only for ukrainians, hang russians and the same stuff. Everyone knows what is the most russian place in Ukraine- for sure Crimea. And the same busters began writing- wait, Russians, we are coming!We will teach you love Ukraine. That is when the passengers of the bus coming from Kiev to Crimea were cut to death in Korsun by maidans. They liked it so much that even videotaped their crime and spread it in youtube. As they said - to show who is in power in THEIR country.
So our men in Sevastopol had to guard our administrative building and our police department. Days and nights. Other men were guarding Perekop in order not to let maydan people come to Crimea. They were there gunles. It was before the illegal junta came to power and before the first appearing of polite people which was on 28 of February in the Simferopol airport.
So my mother, as well as yours now I'm sure was crying at nights and called my brother every hour to ask if everything was ok. Because no country is worth child's life.
So yes, the defence of Crimea really started in February.
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There were no problems there before Crimea.
Billy, you are not right. Check when it started there, check when the preparations for organization of Donetsk Republic was started by Pavel Gubarev and his wife Ekaterina Gubareva.
Miners have been always in disrespect in Ukraine, althought these regions that are now in the middle of the crisis were feedinbg all the country. And for sure miners couldn't agree with desire of The West to join EU. Check yourself the chronology of the events.
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Crmean defence really started in February. In the middle of the month when the Nazi busters from Maidan strted to take control over the administration buildings all over Ukraine, robbering guns from police departments. Shouting aloud on every corner - Ukraine is only for ukrainians, hang russians and the same stuff. Everyone knows what is the most russian place in Ukraine- for sure Crimea. And the same busters began writing- wait, Russians, we are coming!We will teach you love Ukraine. That is when the passengers of the bus coming from Kiev to Crimea were cut to death in Korsun by maidans. They liked it so much that even videotaped their crime and spread it in youtube. As they said - to show who is in power in THEIR country.
Do you have any evidence for this?
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The United States has proof that the Russian government in Moscow is running a network of spies inside eastern Ukraine because the U.S. government has recordings of their conversations, Secretary of State John Kerry said in a closed-door meeting Friday.
“Intel is producing taped conversations of intelligence operatives taking their orders from Moscow and everybody can tell the difference in the accents, in the idioms, in the language. We know exactly who’s giving those orders, we know where they are coming from,” Kerry said at a private meeting of the Trilateral Commission in Washington. A recording of Kerry’s remarks was obtained by The Daily Beast.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html)
That's very Putinesque of you Belvis. Deny, deny, deny. When caught lie again and deny, deny, deny
Deny what? ))
As for lie and reference to John Kerry may I refresh your memory? :
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-schwarz/colin-powell-wmd-iraq-war_b_2624620.html
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Do you have any evidence for this?
sure, they were very proud of it so spread it everywhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcCRP8Fchxc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcCRP8Fchxc)
People cut and left in the ditch, the bus was burnt. "We are titushkas and we were punished" was written on it.
(http://s020.radikal.ru/i720/1404/28/e268154b1986.jpg) (http://www.radikal.ru)
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Deny what? ))
As for lie and reference to John Kerry may I refresh your memory? :
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-schwarz/colin-powell-wmd-iraq-war_b_2624620.html
Belvis, really? You post a link in reference to another politician 13 years earlier as a response or refute to Kerry's claim? This debate here, you lose friend :D
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Intercepted calls Russian Officials to Ukraine Pro-Russians
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html
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Belvis, really? You post a link in reference to another politician 13 years earlier as a response or refute to Kerry's claim? This debate here, you lose friend :D
While I am not surprised at Russian interference, I still wouldn't accept anything any government says at face value. This is the same government who has proclaimed Obamacare a success besides the fact that US personnel conversations regarding who should run Ukraine was released.
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Billy, you are not right. Check when it started there, check when the preparations for organization of Donetsk Republic was started by Pavel Gubarev and his wife Ekaterina Gubareva.
Miners have been always in disrespect in Ukraine, althought these regions that are now in the middle of the crisis were feedinbg all the country. And for sure miners couldn't agree with desire of The West to join EU. Check yourself the chronology of the events.
Justme, I can believe you that there are groups of people that doesn't like the current government and always hated being Ukrainian. Even in America we have pockets of people that hate the current government or any government and will always cause trouble. The problems seem to escalate when Russia encouraged those people to fight, armed them and promised they back them in their fight the whole way.
When I see Ukrainians with brand new uniforms, ski masks, flak jackets, stun grenades, military grade razor wire, and weapons, I know Russia is involved and on Ukrainian soil. Putin lied about Russian troops being involved in Crimea. Although he recently told the truth, it goes to show he's willing to lie to the world and even worse, his own people. In videos, I see militia handling weapons professionall and driving armored vehicles they took from the Ukraine military. They are doing stunts such as donuts with those vehicles. These are professional troops operating in east Ukraine and many of them are Russian.
There are people in Ukraine that don't want to be Ukrainian. There are people in Russia that don't want to be Russian. There are people in America that don't want to be American and they can leave to live under the government of their choice but they can't take the land with them.
Russia has no intention of de-escalating the situation. They continue to bully and scare the Ukrainian military with their military. They continue covert operations in east Ukraine and supply east Ukrainians with weapons and gear. Putin continues to tell the world people should have the right to choose and Russia could offer to help monitor the May 25 elections but he doesn't want fair and free elections because he knows the truth that the majority of Ukrainians want to move in a different direction so Putin wants to control east Ukraine to control the elections and manufacture votes there or start a civil war. Invasion is his last option and it is an option.
I would've thought Russia, since the collapse of the USSR, would have been better off doing business with the international community instead of being hostile. Democracy has failed in Russia but is that because democracy is bad or is there still too much corruption in Russian politics for democracy to succeed? I understand Russian and pro Russians feel life in the USSR is better. I remember sitting on a bench in Kiev and talking to an Ukrainian man who felt this way but other people feel moving towards the west is better.
After all is said and done and if Ukraine survives and moves towards the west, Ukrainians may enjoy a better life. Look at their neighbors such as Poland and the Baltics. The people there make more income than Russians after they adopted a Western style economy. Why do some Ukrainians fear joining the West? The problems with Ukraine's current economy is not because they adopted a western style economy, it's because they never left the Russian way of doing business.
If Putin is so confident Russia provides the best road for Ukraine to travel on, he should let them go join the west for awhile to learn a lesson figuring Ukraine will come back to Russia for the good life. Putin isn't dumb. Once an ex Soviet satellite nation leaves Russia's area of influence, they don't come back.
Justme, I understand you consider yourself a proud Russian but you and your fellow citizens have to hold your government to much higher standards. Many nations have a high level of distrust with your government for valid reasons. Most nations would prefer to have a happy business relationship with Russia without worry of invasion. If Germany and Japan can have huge economic success with fewer people and resources than Russia, why can't Russia do the same if not better? NATO countries are not the threat and not holding Russia back from it's full potential, it's your government that is the problem and if the people continue to support that government, they will never improve to the same standards of living the people in the West enjoy.
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When I see Ukrainians with brand new uniforms, ski masks, flak jackets, stun grenades, military grade razor wire, and weapons, I know Russia is involved and on Ukrainian soil. Putin lied about Russian troops being involved in Crimea. Although he recently told the truth, it goes to show he's willing to lie to the world and even worse, his own people. In videos, I see militia handling weapons professionall and driving armored vehicles they took from the Ukraine military. They are doing stunts such as donuts with those vehicles. These are professional troops operating in east Ukraine and many of them are Russian.
You do realize that military service was mandatory in Ukraine, right? I would hope they learned how to handle a weapon while in service.
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While I am not surprised at Russian interference, I still wouldn't accept anything any government says at face value. This is the same government who has proclaimed Obamacare a success besides the fact that US personnel conversations regarding who should run Ukraine was released.
You are preaching to the choir on this and I would take it one further, don't accept anything or take at face value anything that comes from the lips of a politician including the government they represent. I don't trust none of the bastids. However, Russian propaganda versus American propaganda, let history part and future be the judge.
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Belvis, really? You post a link in reference to another politician 13 years earlier as a response or refute to Kerry's claim? This debate here, you lose friend :D
We're not debating, I provide you direct information and you want me to trust Kerry :)
Let Kerry give out names of all persons involved from recorded conversations, then we can continue debates. He said: We know exactly who’s giving those orders, we know where they are coming from.
I have already showed what he meant.
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and you want me to trust Kerry :)
Let Kerry give out names of all persons involved from recorded conversations, then we can continue debates. He said: We know exactly who’s giving those orders, we know where they are coming from.
I have already showed what he meant.
I don't think a majority of people in the USA trust Kerry to tell the truth without omitting some relevant facts. I don don't know how he plays elsewhere but He's very polarizing here. We really need different people representing us
Fathertime!
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And do you have suggestions how to do that? Give away Ukraine to them? Take Yanuckovych back? Make Russian our first and the only one language?
MissA-
"Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company!"
Undoubtedly Ukraine is, and always had been, in a fairly compromised situation as a nation. I had previously mentioned in another thread that Ukraine, for all intent and purposes, had become one of the globe's *political pinata* by those in power. Pinata is a traditional Mexican child's game where kids are given a stick to pound on a hanging paper figure full of goods and candies. Kids take turns hitting on this figure one at a time. When the figure finally bursts, all the goods and candies pour out of its shell...then everyone grabs a handful of its content.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbIHV-DfQZ0
Unfortunately, this is how I see Ukraine in this crisis today. Just like what Libya was recently. The *goods* being what they've discovered and explored underneath Ukraine.
This types of discovery and events had happened, albeit of varying resource, all over Asia, Africa, Middle-East and in the Americas. No need to tell you what happened in those regions since discovery to today.
Case in point, the biggest gas reserves in Ukraine is believed to be in the Crimean coast. Not in the west/east of Ukraine. Prior to the Crimea referendum, there were major skepticism as to whether or not the western greed conglomerate of Exxon (US), Shell (Netherlands/UK), Eli (Italy) (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-10/ukraine-crisis-endangers-exxon-s-black-sea-gas-drilling-energy.html) will be able to exact their contracts with the newly and illegitimately placed government of Ukraine. All the Crimean election really did was transfer this group's loyalty and alliance to whoever it now needs to sleep with (http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2014/04/18/shell-committed-to-russia-expansion-despite-sanctions/). Do take notice of the corresponding dates in those news. Shell's Executive even went as far as being a guest in Putin's 'home'.
Sanctions? I don't think so. One of the main players in this sanction party is Germany. That in itself is pretty ironic (http://www.dw.de/majority-of-germans-against-anti-russia-economic-sanctions/a-17480983).
You asked how can Ukraine diplomatically deal with Russia? The real question is, how can it not? Based on the events taking place prior to, during, and after the illegal takeover of Ukraine's government, the western states have shown huge disregard to Ukraine and its peoples. Their interest lie in what is underneath Ukraine, not what is above. Like a pinata. Russia doesn't need your gas. They have more than plenty. They certainly don't need your land, they already have a huge part of their heritage well strewn into Ukraine's population.
My roots came from a nation that had unfortunately been a gateway to the Orient. It had always been a geographical doormat for hundreds of years by those who yield the power to rape and plunder. That is still true and well exercised today - anywhere and everywhere.
edit to add:
With the present discovery of permafrost occurring in our globe, chances are good they'll keep discovering sources of natural gas deposits anywhere and everywhere soon.
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Intercepted calls Russian Officials to Ukraine Pro-Russians
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html)
WOW! Really!?!
Moscow is communicating with Pro-Russians in Ukraine? OMG! How can they do that?!? What a bulletin indeed!
Well, we better send Joe Biden back to Ukraine to make sure Russia knows we are communication with the Ukrainians in case they've missed all the events leading to all this mess.
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You do realize that military service was mandatory in Ukraine, right? I would hope they learned how to handle a weapon while in service.
If you want to state that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine, state your opinion instead of giving hints of your beliefs that the militia is former Ukrainian troops.
Based on your comment my guess is you've never been in the military. There's a reason troops train often instead of once and that is to improve and not lose their edge because they do get out of shape physically and forget. If soldiers were out of the military for years and all of a sudden picked up arms, they will not be as sharp as active duty troops and they will not remember all their training and everyone will be a little different from the way they hold a weapon to the way they operate when performing tasks. The militia in east Ukraine is performing like active duty troops that work in harmony. Read the article below based off a professional soldier's observations on the quality of troops/militia running loose in east Ukraine. Didn't you notice a difference in Ukrainian protestors abilities and what they're equipped with in the past before Yanukovych and now?
If Putin admitted to having Russian troops in Crimea, why is it so hard to believe that it's happening now in east Ukraine? Massive denial Putin is not capable of doing these things?
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/04/nato-commander-offers-evidence-of-russian-troops-in-ukraine/
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We're not debating, I provide you direct information and you want me to trust Kerry :)
Let Kerry give out names of all persons involved from recorded conversations, then we can continue debates. He said: We know exactly who’s giving those orders, we know where they are coming from.
I have already showed what he meant.
Did you see this one coming?
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-foes-fear-internet-crackdown-blogger-law-sails-152919266--sector.html (http://news.yahoo.com/putin-foes-fear-internet-crackdown-blogger-law-sails-152919266--sector.html)
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If you want to state that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine, state your opinion instead of giving hints of your beliefs that the militia is former Ukrainian troops.
Another illogical fallacy.
Based on your comment my guess is you've never been in the military. There's a reason troops train often instead of once and that is to improve and not lose their edge because they do get out of shape physically and forget. If soldiers were out of the military for years and all of a sudden picked up arms, they will not be as sharp as active duty troops and they will not remember all their training and everyone will be a little different from the way they hold a weapon to the way they operate when performing tasks. The militia in east Ukraine is performing like active duty troops that work in harmony. Read the article below based off a professional soldier's observations on the quality of troops/militia running loose in east Ukraine. Didn't you notice a difference in Ukrainian protestors abilities and what they're equipped with in the past before Yanukovych and now?
You know all of this because you were an expert in such things within the military? Maybe you read a book or played a lot of Call Of Duty. I don't know why but I find it funny that you can't conceive of the possibility that those really are Ukrainian soldiers and that some of those Ukrainians would be trained. Recently trained at that.
If Putin admitted to having Russian troops in Crimea, why is it so hard to believe that it's happening now in east Ukraine? Massive denial Putin is not capable of doing these things?
Russia has bases in Crimea. Why wouldn't Putin have troops there?
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Did you see this one coming?
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-foes-fear-internet-crackdown-blogger-law-sails-152919266--sector.html (http://news.yahoo.com/putin-foes-fear-internet-crackdown-blogger-law-sails-152919266--sector.html)
I think the only surprise is that it didn't happen sooner.
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Greetings all,
I thought you folks might find this article interesting...
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/28/why-is-putin-in-washingtons-crosshairs/ (http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/28/why-is-putin-in-washingtons-crosshairs/)
April 28, 2014
Why is Putin in Washington’s Crosshairs?
by MIKE WHITNEY
“Washington wants to weaken Moscow economically by slashing its gas revenues and, thus, eroding its ability to defend itself or its interests. The US does not want an economically-integrated Europe and Asia. The de facto EU-Russian alliance is a direct threat to US global hegemony.”
US provocations in Ukraine cannot be understood apart from Washington’s “Pivot to Asia”, which is the broader strategic plan to shift attention from the Middle East to Asia. The so called “re-balancing” is actually a blueprint for controlling China’s growth in a way that is compatible with US hegemonic ambitions. There are different schools of thought about how this can be achieved, but loosely speaking they fall into two categories, “dragon slayers” and “panda huggers”. Dragon slayers favor a strategy of containment while panda huggers favor engagement. As yet, the final shape of the policy has not been decided, but it’s clear from hostilities in the South China Sea and the Senkaku Islands, that the plan will depend heavily on military force.
So what does controlling China have to do with the dust up in Ukraine?
Everything. Washington sees Russia as a growing threat to its plans for regional dominance. The problem is, Moscow has only gotten stronger as it has expanded its network of oil and gas pipelines across Central Asia into Europe. That’s why Washington has decided to use Ukraine is a staging ground for an attack on Russia, because a strong Russia that’s economically integrated with Europe is a threat to US hegemony. Washington wants a weak Russia that won’t challenge US presence in Central Asia or its plan to control vital energy resources.
Currently, Russia provides about 30 percent of Western and Central Europe’s natural gas, 60 percent of which transits Ukraine. People and businesses in Europe depend on Russian gas to heat their homes and run their machinery. The trading relationship between the EU and Russia is mutually-beneficial strengthening both buyer and seller alike. The US gains nothing from the EU-Russia partnership, which is why Washington wants to block Moscow’s access to critical markets. This form of commercial sabotage is an act of war.
At one time, the representatives of big oil, thought they could compete with Moscow by building alternate (pipeline) systems that would meet the EU’s prodigious demand for natural gas. But the plan failed, so Washington has moved on to Plan B; cutting off the flow of gas from Russia to the EU. By interposing itself between the two trading partners, the US hopes to oversee the future distribution of energy supplies and control economic growth on two continents.
The problem Obama and Co. are going to have, is trying to convince people in the EU that their interests are actually being served by paying twice as much to heat their homes in 2015 as they did in 2014, which is the way things are going to shake out if the US plan succeeds. In order to accomplish that feat, the US is making every effort to lure Putin into a confrontation so the media can denounce him as a vicious aggressor and a threat to European security.
Demonizing Putin will provide the necessary justification for stopping the flow of gas from Russia to the EU, which will further weaken the Russian economy while providing new opportunities for NATO to establish forward-operating bases on Russia’s Western perimeter.
It makes no difference to Obama whether people are gouged on gas prices or simply freeze to death in the cold. What matters is the “pivot” to the world’s most promising and prosperous markets of the next century. What matters is crushing Moscow by slashing gas revenues thus eroding its ability to defend itself or its interests. What matters is global hegemony and world domination. That’s what really counts. Everyone knows this. To follow the daily incidents in Ukraine as though they could be separated from the big picture is ridiculous. They’re all part of the same sick strategy.
Here’s a clip from former US national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski in Foreign Affairs explaining how–as far as Washington is concerned–it makes no sense to have separate policies for Europe and Asia:
“With Eurasia now serving as the decisive geopolitical chessboard, it no longer suffices to fashion one policy for Europe and another for Asia. What happens with the distribution of power on the Eurasian landmass will be of decisive importance to America’s global primacy and historical legacy.” (“The danger of war in Asia (http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/04/26/pers-a26.html)“, World Socialist Web Site)"
It’s all about the pivot to Asia and the future of the empire. This is why the CIA and the US State Department engineered a coup to oust Ukrainian president Viktor Yonuchovych and replace him with a US-stooge who would do Obama’s bidding. This is why the imposter prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, has ordered two “anti-terror: crackdowns on unarmed activists in East Ukraine who oppose the Kiev junta. This is why the Obama administration has avoided engaging Putin in constructive dialog aimed at finding on a peaceful solution to the present crisis. It’s because Obama wants to draw the Kremlin into a protracted civil war that will weaken Russia, discredit Putin, and shift public opinion to the side of the US and NATO. Why would Washington veer from a policy that clearly achieves what it’s supposed to achieve? It won’t.
Here’s an excerpt from an article on antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com/): “Reports out of Moscow say that President Putin has “shut down” all talks with President Obama, and say they are “not interested” in speaking to the US again under the current environment of threats and hostility."
Putin and Obama had been speaking regularly on the phone about Ukraine in March and early April, but Putin has not directly spoken to him since April 14, and the Kremlin says that they see no need to do any more talking.” (“Putin Halts Talks With White House Amid Sanctions Threats”, antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com/)). There’s nothing to be gained by talking to Obama. Putin already knows what Obama wants. He wants war. That’s why the State Department and CIA toppled the government. That’s why CIA Director John Brennan appeared in Kiev just one day before coup president Yatsenyuk ordered the first crackdown on pro Russian protestors in the East. That’s why Vice President Joe Biden appeared in Kiev just hours before Yatsenyuk launched his second crackdown on pro Russian protestors in the East. That’s why Yatsenyuk has surrounded the eastern city of Slavyansk where he is preparing an attack on pro-Russian activists. It’s because Washington believes that a violent conflagration serves its greater interests. It’s pointless to talk to people like that, which is why Putin has stopped trying.
At present, the Obama administration is pushing for another round of sanctions on Russia, but members in the EU are dragging their feet. According to RT: “At the moment there is no consensus among the EU members on which economic measures against Russia would be acceptable, or even if they are needed at all,” a European diplomatic source told Itar-Tass.
The diplomat, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said only an open military invasion of Ukraine or irrefutable proof of Russian clandestine military presence in Ukraine would tip EU’s stance toward economic sanctions. So far every piece of evidence that Kiev and Washington made public of alleged involvement of Russian agents in Ukraine was either inconclusive or simply false.” (“US failing to push economic sanctions against Russia through EU allies”, RT)" Once again, it appears that Washington needs to draw Russian troops into the conflict to achieve its objectives.
On Sunday, RIA Novosti published satellite images showing a large buildup of troops outside the eastern Ukrainian city of Slavyansk.
According to a report in Russia Today: “160 tanks, 230 APCs and BMDs, and at least 150 artillery and rocket systems, including “Grad” and “Smerch” multiple rocket launchers, have been deployed to the area. A total of 15,000 troops are positioned near Slavyansk, he said….
Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said the large buildup of Ukraine troops, as well as war games and additional deployments of armed forces to the NATO states in the region have “forced” Russia to respond with military drills of its own…..If Kiev choses to escalate the crackdown on the protesters by using heavy arms against them Russia says it reserves the right to use its own military to stop bloodshed.” (“Tanks, APCs, 15,000 troops’: Satellite images show Kiev forces build-up near Slavyansk”, RT)"
Putin has stated repeatedly that he will respond if ethnic Russians are killed in Ukraine. That’s the red line. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov reiterated the same message in an interview last week with RT’s Sophie Shevardnadze. The usually soft-spoken Lavrov, condemned Yatsenyuk’s attack on Ukrainian civilians as “criminal” and warned that “an attack on Russian citizens is an attack on the Russian Federation.”
The statement was followed by ominous reports of Russian troop movements near Ukraine’s border indicating that Moscow may be preparing to intervene to stem the violence against civilians. According to Russian Russia’s Itar Tass “Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said, “As of today exercises of battalion tactical groups has begun in the border areas with Ukraine.” Also aviation will conduct flights to simulate the actions near the state border.”
So there you have it: It looks like Obama’s provocations WILL draw Putin into the fray after all. But will things turn out the way that Obama thinks they will? Will Putin follow Washington’s script and leave his troops in the east where they’ll be picked off by US-funded paramilitary guerillas and neo Nazis or does he have something else up his sleeve, like a quick blitz to Kiev to remove the junta government, call for international peacekeepers to quell the violence, and slip back over the border to safety? Whatever the strategy may be, we won’t have to wait long to see it implemented. If Yatsenyuk’s army attacks Slavyansk, then Putin’s going to send in the tanks and it’ll be a whole new ballgame.
MIKE WHITNEY lives in Washington state. He is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1849351104/counterpunchmaga) (AK Press). Hopeless is also available in a Kindle edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007X497NM/counterpunchmaga). He can be reached at fergiewhitney@msn.com.
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More of Putin's blood work:
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmU4FqFIAAAbP4A.jpg:large)
Those that admire Putin should be shunned. Too many on this forum, IMHO
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“Washington wants to weaken Moscow economically by slashing its gas revenues and, thus, eroding its ability to defend itself or its interests. The US does not want an economically-integrated Europe and Asia. The de facto EU-Russian alliance is a direct threat to US global hegemony.”
US provocations in Ukraine cannot be understood apart from Washington’s “Pivot to Asia”, which is the broader strategic plan to shift attention from the Middle East to Asia. The so called “re-balancing” is actually a blueprint for controlling China’s growth in a way that is compatible with US hegemonic ambitions. There are different schools of thought about how this can be achieved, but loosely speaking they fall into two categories, “dragon slayers” and “panda huggers”. Dragon slayers favor a strategy of containment while panda huggers favor engagement. As yet, the final shape of the policy has not been decided, but it’s clear from hostilities in the South China Sea and the Senkaku Islands, that the plan will depend heavily on military force.
So what does controlling China have to do with the dust up in Ukraine?
Everything. Washington sees Russia as a growing threat to its plans for regional dominance. The problem is, Moscow has only gotten stronger as it has expanded its network of oil and gas pipelines across Central Asia into Europe. That’s why Washington has decided to use Ukraine is a staging ground for an attack on Russia, because a strong Russia that’s economically integrated with Europe is a threat to US hegemony. Washington wants a weak Russia that won’t challenge US presence in Central Asia or its plan to control vital energy resources.
Currently, Russia provides about 30 percent of Western and Central Europe’s natural gas, 60 percent of which transits Ukraine. People and businesses in Europe depend on Russian gas to heat their homes and run their machinery. The trading relationship between the EU and Russia is mutually-beneficial strengthening both buyer and seller alike. The US gains nothing from the EU-Russia partnership, which is why Washington wants to block Moscow’s access to critical markets. This form of commercial sabotage is an act of war.
At one time, the representatives of big oil, thought they could compete with Moscow by building alternate (pipeline) systems that would meet the EU’s prodigious demand for natural gas. But the plan failed, so Washington has moved on to Plan B; cutting off the flow of gas from Russia to the EU. By interposing itself between the two trading partners, the US hopes to oversee the future distribution of energy supplies and control economic growth on two continents.
The problem Obama and Co. are going to have, is trying to convince people in the EU that their interests are actually being served by paying twice as much to heat their homes in 2015 as they did in 2014, which is the way things are going to shake out if the US plan succeeds. In order to accomplish that feat, the US is making every effort to lure Putin into a confrontation so the media can denounce him as a vicious aggressor and a threat to European security.
Demonizing Putin will provide the necessary justification for stopping the flow of gas from Russia to the EU, which will further weaken the Russian economy while providing new opportunities for NATO to establish forward-operating bases on Russia’s Western perimeter.
It makes no difference to Obama whether people are gouged on gas prices or simply freeze to death in the cold. What matters is the “pivot” to the world’s most promising and prosperous markets of the next century. What matters is crushing Moscow by slashing gas revenues thus eroding its ability to defend itself or its interests. What matters is global hegemony and world domination. That’s what really counts. Everyone knows this. To follow the daily incidents in Ukraine as though they could be separated from the big picture is ridiculous. They’re all part of the same sick strategy.
Hey Irwin, thanks for posting this viewpoint.
I would hope that neither of the leaders would WANT war, but who knows.
If we were to start supplying Europe gas, the cost would be outrageous, just transporting the stuff 1000's of miles across the ocean and keeping it at -40 degrees or so would use a lot of resources/money...The only way US companies are going to do that is for a profit, and it definitely would cost. That will raise prices for us too. I don't think people are going to go along with this...for whatever that is worth.
Fathertime!
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However, Russian propaganda versus American propaganda, let history part and future be the judge.
Good point FP.
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dissapointing and sad that people are actually buying into believing articles like mike whitneys above as ''truth ''
just shows how putins propoganda is working so well here , let alone in ukraine on the ground for the local population enduring this stressfull time
this one below is far cloesr to the mark imho
http://www.praguepost.com/viewpoint/38718-europe-s-act-in-ukraine-s-tragedy
this is affecting real people there
SX
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gq underneath Ukraine, not what is above. Like a pinata. Russia doesn't need your gas. They have more than plenty. They certainly don't need your land, they already have a huge part of their heritage well strewn into Ukraine's population.
its underneath and above that putin is after
he took crimea , this was wanted for its strategic military significance to russia , now and into the future, stealing it saved him 100 million a year in rent alone and he gained its significant gas and oil reserves with free access to all countrys within the black sea region who may wish to trade with him for it
however in gaining crimea , he did not gain a land bridge to it nor water or electricity generation & supply , all fairly essential infrastructures without which crimea will be a bigger cost to russia
stealing more of the south/east of ukraine he gains all of the above assetts and supply lines he need to keep his costs down as low as he can let alone the time and cost of building the kerch bridge so in true aggressive style of nationalism he has kept on destabilising and stealth invading
stealing more of the south east will give him heavy industry that helps keep his military supplied , russia is one of the biggest arms suppliers in the world, he needs to keep that supply line gauranteed , not only for exports but his own military, recently he stated it would take russia two & half years to internally develop & replace the supply of ukraines military parts etc
he knows the south east is old soviet , much more than the west of ukraine , if he annexes it the population most likely will be less resistant to his [russian ] control again less cost to him for what he will gain
putin also gains border access to moldova he can link up all his land grabs together
nice and tidy, while further weakening ukraines economy be removing its access to the sea export ports of oddessa etc etc let alone its navy
putin knows he [russia ] will be isolated by his actions , he will ask russians to bear the sacrifice in the honour of keeping russia strong etc etc , life will get harder for the average russian , so he knows he may as well take as much as he can gain with minimum cost and blood to him if possible to make it worthwhile to his ambitions and public justification to russians
SX
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This is why the Obama administration has avoided engaging Putin in constructive dialog aimed at finding on a peaceful solution to the present crisis. It’s because Obama wants to draw the Kremlin into a protracted civil war that will weaken Russia, discredit Putin, and shift public opinion to the side of the US and NATO.
The author of the article thinks Obama is that smart? If Obama has the intention of dragging Russia into a messy war, he's doing a bad job. Obama needs schooling from Putin by arming the west Ukrainian fascists, have them put on ski masks so nobody can identify them and blame America, and then attack Russia. That is the sure fire way of get Russia to cross the border.
America is the source of all evil in the world? Got to stop reading those radical websites. Paranoia will destroya.
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Greetings all,
I thought you folks might find this article interesting...
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/28/why-is-putin-in-washingtons-crosshairs/ (http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/28/why-is-putin-in-washingtons-crosshairs/)
April 28, 2014
Why is Putin in Washington’s Crosshairs?
by MIKE WHITNEY
“Washington wants to weaken Moscow economically by slashing its gas revenues and, thus, eroding its ability to defend itself or its interests. The US does not want an economically-integrated Europe and Asia. The de facto EU-Russian alliance is a direct threat to US global hegemony.”
Erwin, it is difficult to read this article when it starts with gross errors.
First, Russia is the largest supplier of gas to Europe, yet its share is declining. Europe has increased production from Norway and now imports more LNG from the Middle East
Second, Russia's gas revenues have been declining as prices drop due to increased production in the US at 1/5th the price of Russian gas.
Third, China has become a significant importer of Russian gas. However, China gets most gas from Turkmenistan. And even that will decline over time because China has the world's largest reserves of shale gas.
Fourth, Ukraine is Europe's second largest user of Russian gas, behind Germany, and Ukraine has plans for becoming self-sufficient.
Thus, gas has a dismal outlook in Russia's future just due to market forces. There is no need to fabricate some conspiracy that the US is involved in Ukraine and elsewhere to "slash" Russia's gas revenues.
Keep in mind that while Russia will have shrinking revenues, it still will be viable because of oil, not gas. Russia's gas revenues are small compared to its oil revenues. Last year the former amounted to $28 billion, while oil revenues were almost $200 billion.
Due to a decline in export revenues, one wonders why Putin would want to absorb east Ukraine with its needs for financial investments. Crimea alone will be a significant drain on Russia's cash.
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America is the source of all evil in the world? Got to stop reading those radical websites. Paranoia will destroya.
America must stay out. Stay out. merp!
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/194/094/b7f6d7a1-5432-434d-ab14-deda5a56ebc2.jpg)
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Due to a decline in export revenues, one wonders why Putin would want to absorb east Ukraine with its needs for financial investments. Crimea alone will be a significant drain on Russia's cash.
GATOR
he knows things will be difficult in the short term ,but historically he is thinking of going down in history as the ''man ''who gave russia back its real heartland,
primarily he is playing the long term game here , id be thinking it is decades/ centurys not just the next few years,
he knows russia will survive any isolation austerity that happens, he is also doing it internally himself to russia ,
but decades out he will make in his mind significant history by his actions today , that people will accept as a good outcome for russians , despite possible generational suffering in the shorter term .imho
SX
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primarily he is playing the long term game here ...
he knows russia will survive any isolation austerity that happens ...
people will accept as a good outcome for russians , despite possible generational suffering in the shorter term
Pretty right on the money.
Putin will go in some time but Crimea will stay in Russia.
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Faces of pro-Russian militia in Donetsk and Lugansk regions
(http://www.imgmlp.com/images/2014/04/30/c2286b06ff3838233190cb87503168044d.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FNDqaPk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/HmFeT4w.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/omqWVde.jpg)
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Pretty right on the money.
Putin will go in some time but Crimea will stay in Russia.
Are Russians at all bothered that their president supports terrorists?
How they feel about innocent people being beaten up, tortured and even killed due to actions of their president?
How they feel about loosing freedom of speech and right to protest?
What do they think about proposed closed internal internet for Russia?
What people think about planned on 18th of May rallies against Putin across Russia? (will you be taking part in them?)
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GATOR
he knows things will be difficult in the short term ,but historically he is thinking of going down in history as the ''man ''who gave russia back its real heartland,
primarily he is playing the long term game here , id be thinking it is decades/ centurys not just the next few years,
he knows russia will survive any isolation austerity that happens, he is also doing it internally himself to russia ,
but decades out he will make in his mind significant history by his actions today , that people will accept as a good outcome for russians , despite possible generational suffering in the shorter term .imho
SX
Hey SX,
If V. Putin is playing the long game it also has it's risks, the next Russian leader could decide to 'regift' lands back outright, or as part of a greater agreement...or maybe not.
I read a little article this morning that states that the Ukrainian officials or cooperating with the gunmen taking over buildings in E. Ukraine...Kiev has said it is'helpless'.
http://news.yahoo.com/kiev-says-helpless-restore-order-east-095344345.html (http://news.yahoo.com/kiev-says-helpless-restore-order-east-095344345.html)
Fathertime!
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Are Russians at all bothered that their president supports terrorists?
How they feel about innocent people being beaten up, tortured and even killed due to actions of their president?
It's hard to distinguish between terrorists, rebels, insurgents, activists in Ukraine. I can say firmly no, the president did not support terrorists at Maidan who participated in armed coup in Kiev. However where our president took approapriate actions, in Crimea, there were no tortured people, no deaths. Do you propose Putin take actions in mainland Ukraine to restore civil rights and order?
How they feel about loosing freedom of speech and right to protest?
What do they think about proposed closed internal internet for Russia?
Nobody concerned because they know it's BS for west audience. But I can be biased as I don't crave for beating cops. I prefer election tools.
What people think about planned on 18th of May rallies against Putin across Russia? (will you be taking part in them?)
People don't think about so remote events. They have to think about coming long holidays, how and where to spend them. I respect the right and wish of 0.1% of population to protest against Putin :) I don't like he is still single but consider it's not a good reason to take part in a rally against him.
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LIES! LIES! LIES! Just gives me goose-bumpies when I see LIES! LIES! LIES! Hitler-Putin you...
Faces of pro-Russian militia in Donetsk and Lugansk regions
(http://www.imgmlp.com/images/2014/04/30/c2286b06ff3838233190cb87503168044d.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FNDqaPk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/HmFeT4w.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/omqWVde.jpg)
I completely disagree!! I mean COMPLETELY! This is another Russian propaganda!
These are not Pro-Russian militia. These are the Super-Duper, Friday-Nights Special, Russian Elite killing squad that had invaded Ukraine. It's no use for Russia to be lying about this fact as the pictures can easily show these demons of death. Demons of Death, I tell yah!
Notice the Soviet - KGB elite force issue - Adidas super-duper combat fighting shoes on the first pic? Hah! Dead giveaway there. Even those Sport Chalet's Hellstorm black knee pads.
How about those Soviet Swift Pink Menace with retracting 8" jagged-edged blade that Cute Agent Katerina is wearing? Hah, how about those? She's part of the Kremlin high noon all-women murderers squad. They perform special missions that need to be carried out after noon everyday for the simple reason FSUW normally doesn't get out of bed until sometime after 11 AM.
I can go on with these irrefutable facts that Russia's Elite Special, Super-Duper killing machines on two legs were sent inside Ukraine to takeover their illegal and illegitimate government buildings in eastern Ukraine.
Oh yes they are!
Ain't no lyin' eyes on this one, you Lying Hitler-Putin - you.
Spies from Yahoo and Fox News even released a classified report that these military demons were actually communicating with Moscow. The nerve of these Slavs!
Hah! Putin must think RWD posters are gullible enough not to see through these covert and secretly classified, hush-hush fogs of war?
We can see right through you, you Hitler-Putin you!
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... our president took approapriate actions, in Crimea, there were no tortured people, no deaths.
Are you trying to say that Reshat Ametov was not tortured or that he is still alive? Or perhaps that Stanislav Karachevsky was not killed? Or maybe you are trying to say that no one was torturing Sergey Hayduk, Alexey Gritsenko, Yuri Shevchenko, Sergey Suprun, Davydenko, Mikhail, Maxim Tryvydenko, Andrew Shchekun, Yaroslav Pilunsky and Yuri Gruzinova? No one during tortures was shooting through legs and hands of Andrew Shchekun and Yuri Shevchenko from traumatic weapons? No one during tortures cut piece of ear from Yuri Shevchenko? Or perhaps you are trying to say that right now those hostages that still holding glorious russian soldiers in Crimea are not being tortured?
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How about those Soviet Swift Pink Menace with retracting 8" jagged-edged blade that Cute Agent Katerina is wearing? Hah, how about those? She's part of the Kremlin high noon all-women murderers squad. They perform special missions that need to be carried out after noon everyday for the simple reason FSUW normally doesn't get out of bed until sometime after 11 AM.
(http://i.imgur.com/omqWVde.jpg)
The Russians have been giving out pink shoes and masks so their soldiers can blend in. Brilliant tactics if you ask me. I can't tell if that is a woman or Russian Spetsnaz. Look at the way she is holding the bat. You can tell she has been trained in the use of weaponry. She obviously isn't some old fat vet that hasn't trained in 20 years.
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...Look at the way she is holding the bat....
Old habits die hard, man. Killer Soviets Elite Force are people, too.
... She obviously isn't some old fat vet that hasn't trained in 20 years...
No she's not...but the US dispatched soldiers sent to confront these Soviet Elite forces stationed in Latvia and Estonia are. See below.
I really like the new US military slogan: "Let Yourself Go!"
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(http://i.imgur.com/omqWVde.jpg)
The Russians have been giving out pink shoes and masks so their soldiers can blend in. Brilliant tactics if you ask me. I can't tell if that is a woman or Russian Spetsnaz. Look at the way she is holding the bat.
It seems that she has been trained to stroke the bat, believing it will make her little bat harder and bigger.
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Good one Gator. :clapping:
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Faces of pro-Russian militia in Donetsk and Lugansk regions
(http://www.imgmlp.com/images/2014/04/30/c2286b06ff3838233190cb87503168044d.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FNDqaPk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/HmFeT4w.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/omqWVde.jpg)
Russian Scum
Are you trying to say that Reshat Ametov was not tortured or that he is still alive? Or perhaps that Stanislav Karachevsky was not killed? Or maybe you are trying to say that no one was torturing Sergey Hayduk, Alexey Gritsenko, Yuri Shevchenko, Sergey Suprun, Davydenko, Mikhail, Maxim Tryvydenko, Andrew Shchekun, Yaroslav Pilunsky and Yuri Gruzinova? No one during tortures was shooting through legs and hands of Andrew Shchekun and Yuri Shevchenko from traumatic weapons? No one during tortures cut piece of ear from Yuri Shevchenko? Or perhaps you are trying to say that right now those hostages that still holding glorious russian soldiers in Crimea are not being tortured?
They don't want to see the truth about Saint Putin:
Bodies of Yuriy Popravko & Vladimir Rybak
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fc7_1398651073#kGszFMmFjI1uX43c.99
I wish some of these libertarian cheerleaders for Putin would drink drano.
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Are you trying to say that Reshat Ametov was not tortured or that he is still alive? Or perhaps that Stanislav Karachevsky was not killed? Or maybe you are trying to say that no one was torturing Sergey Hayduk, Alexey Gritsenko, Yuri Shevchenko, Sergey Suprun, Davydenko, Mikhail, Maxim Tryvydenko, Andrew Shchekun, Yaroslav Pilunsky and Yuri Gruzinova? No one during tortures was shooting through legs and hands of Andrew Shchekun and Yuri Shevchenko from traumatic weapons? No one during tortures cut piece of ear from Yuri Shevchenko? Or perhaps you are trying to say that right now those hostages that still holding glorious russian soldiers in Crimea are not being tortured?
You're talking about things that happened routinely at Maidan in Kiev. Sure it happened in Crimea too though at much smaller scale, as well as in Donetsk region also. Face the consequences of civil unrests, if you stand up for revolution you have to accept what revolution brings.
When situation in Crimea was taken over under full control of little green men all incidents had stopped. But you're selective and prefer to close eyes on killings which took place over Ukraine in the same time.
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I never thought I would ever say this, but reading some of this Putinist drivel, "I actually wish there were some Muslims right now" - CHECHENS!
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However where our president took approapriate actions, in Crimea, there were no tortured people, no deaths.
...Sure it happened in Crimea too though at much smaller scale...
I have always respected your viewpoint in the past, Belvis, because you have contributed a lot of interesting stuff, but this is nonsense - first you say nobody was tortured or killed in Crimea, then you agree with MissAmeno that they were. If you can't get your own story straight on something so basic, why should we believe anything else you write about the current situation in Ukraine?
I respect the right and wish of 0.1% of population to protest against Putin :) I don't like he is still single but consider it's not a good reason to take part in a rally against him.
Huh? What on earth has being single go to do with the planned demonstations? And why shouldn't he stay single? It's not compulsory to get married (or re-married), even in Russia.
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Are Russians at all bothered that their president supports terrorists?
How they feel about innocent people being beaten up, tortured and even killed due to actions of their president?
How they feel about loosing freedom of speech and right to protest?
What do they think about proposed closed internal internet for Russia?
What people think about planned on 18th of May rallies against Putin across Russia? (will you be taking part in them?)
Perhaps the word sheep comes to mind?
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I have always respected your viewpoint in the past, Belvis, because you have contributed a lot of interesting stuff, but this is nonsense - first you say nobody was tortured or killed in Crimea, then you agree with MissAmeno that they were. If you can't get your own story straight on something so basic, why should we believe anything else you write about the current situation in Ukraine?
You have to weight the scale before making conclusions about events. We're not in a court where one should think about each word and its meaning. Are you a lawer, btw? :)
Just think about almost 3 million region on the edge of civil war, with 22,000 ukrainian army group, with revolted russian population, with large chunk of muslim minority, and compare with only 4 dead in the course of so called forcible annexation. One woman was crushed in a protest crowd in first days, two were shot by a provocator sniper (an ukrainian soldier and a russian activist), and one Tatar was killed after torture. Nobody has evidence if the last death was connected with political conflict and not criminal one.
You can make up the story as a violent event but I will strongly disagree with you :) And I repeat once again, the Russian factor saved a lot of human lives in Crimea preventing a civil war, the annexation was very peaceful.
And why shouldn't he stay single? It's not compulsory to get married (or re-married), even in Russia.
I consider your statement as meddling in Russian internal affairs. I insist the president should be married. :)
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You know what other annexatiion that was relatively peaceful . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLSRxKQqao
(http://histclo.com/imagef/date/2009/11/ans38-03s.jpg)
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Belvis, have to go to work and no time to answer gibberish you wrote. First there is evidence. second more people still held as hostages in Crimea, third most of those people were tortured already when Russians 'took control'.
Do bother to look up names, photos, etc before writing BS.
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The US are war mongers 8)
http://www.turnerradionetwork.com/news/357-confidential
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw
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One or two posters have talked about a win-win solution in Ukraine.
Mohamed El-Erian is a highly respected economist. In this video he talks about a lose-lose-lose-lose outcome if all players do not deescalate.
http://money.cnn.com/video/investing/2014/04/25/investing-russia-ukraine-economic-sanctions-global-markets-recession-risk.cnnmoney/
It will be a game of stare down between Europe and Putin. I bet Europe blinks first. I bet the farm.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw
Well, nothing here that hasn't already been presented, discussed and debated in this thread Stefan. The US and the EU had always been known to be behind the unrest, ousting of the president, and the appointment of the illegitimate government of Ukraine. Like I said before, the price will be paid for by the general population of Ukraine. That's the worst part of this whole mess.
The regime change in Ukraine is so vital to the economy of Europe. Just as the one in Libya.
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One or two posters have talked about a win-win solution in Ukraine.
Mohamed El-Erian is a highly respected economist. In this video he talks about a lose-lose-lose-lose outcome if all players do not deescalate.
http://money.cnn.com/video/investing/2014/04/25/investing-russia-ukraine-economic-sanctions-global-markets-recession-risk.cnnmoney/ (http://money.cnn.com/video/investing/2014/04/25/investing-russia-ukraine-economic-sanctions-global-markets-recession-risk.cnnmoney/)
It will be a game of stare down between Europe and Putin. I bet Europe blinks first. I bet the farm.
I think I’m the only one talking about the possibility of win-win….but I do agree with the man in the link…IF we (the USA) continue to escalate then I can definitely see how it becomes lose-lose-lose…. I feel that is one reason why we should not get involved any further.
Fathertime!
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Well, nothing here that hasn't already been presented, discussed and debated in this thread Stefan. The US and the EU had always been known to be behind the unrest, ousting of the president, and the appointment of the illegitimate government of Ukraine. Like I said before, the price will be paid for by the general population of Ukraine. That's the worst part of this whole mess.
The regime change in Ukraine is so vital to the economy of Europe. Just as the one in Libya.
Yes but it is the best presentation I've seen yet on who the real man is behind the curtain. Too bad those on the other side of this issue will not take the time to watch this.
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Yes but it is the best presentation I've seen yet on who the real man is behind the curtain. Too bad those on the other side of this issue will not take the time to watch this.
Yeah, well, about a month ago I ridiculed that silly 'I am Ukrainian' video, LOL. It just screamed like a well financed/produced video to me. Then to get the tip from watching Stefan's video on who actually made the video is just freaking hilarious!
http://awhispertoaroar.com/about-the-film/behind-the-scenes/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA
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An interesting article talking about how the US has been working towards keeping Russia in check. You can see the similarities with what Carter did in Afghanistan to what has happened many times in many countries. Typical US M.O. that tends to bite us in the ass later on.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-paul/forget-the-spin-putin-is_b_5183691.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-paul/forget-the-spin-putin-is_b_5183691.html)
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Yeah, well, about a month ago I ridiculed that silly 'I am Ukrainian' video, LOL. It just screamed like a well financed/produced video to me. Then to get the tip from watching Stefan's video on who actually made the video is just freaking hilarious!
http://awhispertoaroar.com/about-the-film/behind-the-scenes/ (http://awhispertoaroar.com/about-the-film/behind-the-scenes/)
Isn't amazing how they don't even try to disguise who they really are? They must being counting on most people not even checking.
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Isn't amazing how they don't even try to disguise who they really are? They must being counting on most people not even checking.
..and they are correct, there are a lot of sheep that believe just about anything our govt sponsors...hopefully we (the people) can stop them from going too far and continuing the escalation.
Fathertime!
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..and they are correct, there are a lot of sheep that believe just about anything our govt sponsors...hopefully we (the people) can stop them from going too far and continuing the escalation.
Fathertime!
I'm seeing a sea change on this subject. Even my dear 85 year old mother is telling her friends the score.
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I'm seeing a sea change on this subject. Even my dear 85 year old mother is telling her friends the score.
Well I often bring up the subject of Ukraine to people without giving my sentiments...I try to do it in a way that gives the person a chance to express their feelings without me interjecting or knowing how I feel about it....I have yet to have spoken with a person that supports us doing anything in Ukraine....but that still may not stop our 'representatives' from escalating, without the support of the American populace...i'm convinced that would be a bad mistake that would impact us in a bad way.
Fathertime!
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An interesting article talking about how the US has been working towards keeping Russia in check. You can see the similarities with what Carter did in Afghanistan to what has happened many times in many countries. Typical US M.O. that tends to bite us in the ass later on.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-paul/forget-the-spin-putin-is_b_5183691.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-paul/forget-the-spin-putin-is_b_5183691.html)
Well now. Isn't this really interesting? I never knew about the Carter CIA plan...
The last 3 4 Democratic Presidents: LBJ in Vietnam, Carter in Afghanistan, Clinton in the Balkans, and now Obama in Libya/Syria/Ukraine. So much for Republicans starting wars and Democrats ending them, eh?
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Mohamed El-Erian is a highly respected economist. In this video he talks about a lose-lose-lose-lose outcome if all players do not deescalate.
In terms of money, yes, everybody loses but some people don't mind rich people losing money anyway. When rich people lose money, the little people will eventually feel it when their nations economy is hurting. As far as de-escalating goes, every side has a different definition of what de-escalating is.
The little sanctions that Obama think are the right recipe for getting Russia to back off aren't working. Russia survived many years without doing business with the West so if it happens again, no big deal. Putin will always be rich and as a bonus he weakens NATO nations in the process. The only thing that scares Putin is the thought of America's military getting involved. After Crimea, Putin learned Obama won't use the military so he moved on to east Ukraine New Russia. Same sh!t, different day. I don't see an end to this. If America backs off, Ukraine will continue to fall into Russia's hands. If Obama applies sanctions in baby steps, it certainly hasn't produced results so why would it in the future? Sometimes the only way to stop a playground bully is to bloody his nose. First start with a warning and de-escalation may begin.
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Anybody watch the Oliver Stone TV series? It's on re-run here now and very interesting. Now, here's an American I Call a real American (to paraphrase Hulk Hogan). To love America and Americans and the ideal of Americanism by criticizing bad policies of the past by People who Call themselves Americans but were not, that's what real patriotism is all about in my opinion. . The interventionists. The world improvers. The world police People. The supporters of the empire.
It makes me Wonder how Oliver Stone see the current situation in Ukraine. I'm pretty sure it's not With the current administrations glasses, nor the media, nor the rest of the western world's. Yes, here too, in Norway, we get the "consensus" oppinion of what's going on. Russia is supposedly all war mongering and propaganda and Washington is the shining light of truth and Liberty and the rest of the west just seem to follow orders. I can hear and read about it in the media every day, but also get the other side via my wife as she and her mother watch Russian TV here. Many times she tell me something that's happened and a day or two later I hear it on the News here. It's all very one-sided and it's laughable how the media is still in the 80's. It's like the truth movement in the west vs. the evil empire in the east.
I say give the Nobel Peace price to Vladimir Putin! Imagine if someone else were at the helm in Moscow. A Russian Hawk. Someone like Shirinovsky for example. We'd been in a world war a long time ago. Putin is very patient With the idiots in the western Powers, but even for the best politician of today, a limit must exist somewhere.
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2014 Barrack Hussein Obama to Ukraine / Ukrainians:
"If you like your President, You can keep your President! Period!"
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Nice to see you posting Natural. I agree with your observations.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/propaganda
What are we really complaining about here? Our PR is better than theirs? Obama's interventionism? The US policy in Kiev? We abandoned our commitments to the Budapest Memorandum. They asked us for guns, training, ships, jets. We gave them MREs. We have twink president, but by the commentary on this thread, you would think the pink pussy cat from Kenya Was Tamerlane.
The fact is there is an element on this forum that want a weak and debased FSU for a potential dating pool in case their current love life flops.
(http://cbsbaltimore.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/3453097.jpg)
(http://media.worldbulletin.net/news/2014/04/29/putin-schroeder-reuters.jpg)
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:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Congratulations to Ukraine for starting a military offensive to rid Slavyansk of insurgents. Too bad the offensive quickly bogged down, especially after the insurgents shot down two helicopters. How does an ordinary citizen get his hands on stinger missiles?
How will Ukraine be ready for a national referendum in 3+ weeks with so many cities in turmoil?
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Too bad the offensive quickly bogged down, especially after the insurgents shot down two helicopters. How does an ordinary citizen get his hands on stinger missiles?
My guess they used AP rounds. An AP round in one of my 30-06 rifles will penetrate 1 inch of mild steel. So with an aluminum and plexiglass helicopter? I wouldn't want to be in one.
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My guess they used AP rounds. An AP round in one of my 30-06 rifles will penetrate 1 inch of mild steel. So with an aluminum and plexiglass helicopter? I wouldn't want to be in one.
PBS had a film clip of a missile launch (visual and sound).
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Anybody watch the Oliver Stone TV series? It's on re-run here now and very interesting. Now, here's an American I Call a real American (to paraphrase Hulk Hogan). To love America and Americans and the ideal of Americanism by criticizing bad policies of the past by People who Call themselves Americans but were not, that's what real patriotism is all about in my opinion. . The interventionists. The world improvers. The world police People. The supporters of the empire.
It makes me Wonder how Oliver Stone see the current situation in Ukraine. I'm pretty sure it's not With the current administrations glasses, nor the media, nor the rest of the western world's. Yes, here too, in Norway, we get the "consensus" oppinion of what's going on. Russia is supposedly all war mongering and propaganda and Washington is the shining light of truth and Liberty and the rest of the west just seem to follow orders. I can hear and read about it in the media every day, but also get the other side via my wife as she and her mother watch Russian TV here. Many times she tell me something that's happened and a day or two later I hear it on the News here. It's all very one-sided and it's laughable how the media is still in the 80's. It's like the truth movement in the west vs. the evil empire in the east.
I say give the Nobel Peace price to Vladimir Putin! Imagine if someone else were at the helm in Moscow. A Russian Hawk. Someone like Shirinovsky for example. We'd been in a world war a long time ago. Putin is very patient With the idiots in the western Powers, but even for the best politician of today, a limit must exist somewhere.
+62
This sir is a post that I can agree with 4-square.
In listening to that Nuland tape once again among other things, it is extremely clear that we have orchestrated quite a bit, and helped to create the mess and now we are whining and fishing for partners because Russia has finally reacted. This doesn't look like it is going to turn out well given the current escalations, and the ones promised going forward.
Fathertime!
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PBS had a film clip of a missile launch (visual and sound).
Was it in Ukraine?
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A victory for Putin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj0N2iS5g_k
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How does an ordinary citizen get his hands on stinger missiles?
They keep the anti aircraft and armor piercing weapons at home in the same closet they keep machine guns, ammo, battle fatigues, flak jackets, ski masks, razor wire, and stun grenades. All Ukrainians have these items at home!
Notice the difference between the protestors that ousted Yanukovych and the protestors now?
I say give the Nobel Peace price to Vladimir Putin!
Putin is a 2014 Nobel Peace prize nominee. Make your votes count and he may win it.
the idiots in the western Powers,
From the beginning to the end of Obama's presidency, China and Russia will have made progress catching up to America. We keep electing guys like Obama, you guys may get your wish someday. America will only have enough power sustain ourselves and we won't be able enforce international law. Russia and China may have their chance to influence the world the way they see fit.
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[size=78%] We keep electing guys like Obama, you guys may get your wish someday. America will only have enough power sustain ourselves and we won't be able enforce international law. Russia and China may have their chance to influence the world the way they see fit.[/size]
For the record I loath Obama. It was his three witches, Hillary, Victoria and Rice that started this whole mess.
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I can only hope someday Ukrainians will realize the blame lies upon my country, the US, and the EU for causing this unrest in their home country.
I'm willing to bet these pro-Russians never want to be back under Russian domain anymore than the Crimeans do that's why they're living in Ukraine. But choosing between Russia and having to live under an illegitimate government made specifically by the US/EU, right after witnessing having their duly, legally elected president unconstitutionally removed, they're doing what anyone else will be doing in their own respective nations - thus Russia became the lesser evil.
It really is too bad. Bad for Ukraine. Bad for the Ukrainians. Bad for the ethnic Russians of Ukraine.
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after witnessing having their duly, legally elected president unconstitutionally removed,
If Yanukovych got his Kim Jong Un on, he wouldn't have been ousted. If he got the same haircut as the duly elected president of North Korea below, he'd have women weeping for joy and creaming their pants when he walks in the room instead of having to flee the country.
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If Yanukovych got his Kim Jong Un on, he wouldn't have been ousted. If he got the same haircut as the duly elected president of North Korea below, he'd have women weeping for joy and creaming their pants when he walks in the room instead of having to flee the country.
Definitely the dissenting opinion specialist. :rolleyes: Yeah Yanu should've hung out in strip joints with you, LOL
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NK will never be free. But according to Ron Paul and his disciples, that shouldn't both us. According to the liberals, its our fault. At least Fatty Kim looks happy.
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Was it in Ukraine?
Yes - it was shown here as well. Now the unrest has spread to Odessa, with dire results as "dozens" of pro-Russian demonstrators are reported to have died when a building to which they had fled was set on fire. What was personally more chilling to me was that the first part of the clip on our news tonight showed fighting near the top of the Potemkin Steps, directly outside the apartment I stayed in during my visit to that city.
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It really is too bad. Bad for Ukraine. Bad for the Ukrainians. Bad for the ethnic Russians of Ukraine.
Ukraine died yesterday.Died for millions of ukrainians who we watching direct stream from Odessa. I wish now I didn't. I can't sleep for the second day and no medicine helps me to fall asleep.I started smoking. I can't stop crying. I hate Ukraine. I hate this damned country,i hate everything connected with it.
Yesterday 43 people were burned alive by ukrainian facsists in Odessa. 174 people are dying from severe injuries now in the hospitals. Fascists of 21 century just locked them in the building, locked everybody who just chanced to be there that momenbt, old women and men, everybody.and burned them alive. They killed those who jumped from the 5 floor of the burning building. They were beating people burning alive and ..they were laughting..."Burn,Russians!!"But when everything was finished and they were rummaging the building checking the documents of the dead people...everybody was from Odessa...Ukraininas killed Ukrainians...late at night on their forums they would write to each other - thanks to Kiev and Kharkov, it was a great surprise!Nice barbecue!!BARBECUE!!!I hate Ukraine.
(http://s57.radikal.ru/i158/1405/08/526d133fb65d.jpg) (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goQ-i7w3TrM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goQ-i7w3TrM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEjziCDbTXY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEjziCDbTXY)
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Sounds like you may not have the full info on what occurred in Odessa.
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Sounds like you may not have the full info on what occurred in Odessa.
I have the fullest info possible.I watched online stream for 5 hours made by one of the busters.
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Young Ukrainian nazi...in an hour they will burn alive 43 people...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fCwA1hM-b4
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Ukraine died yesterday.Died for millions of ukrainians who we watching direct stream from Odessa. I wish now I didn't. I can't sleep for the second day and no medicine helps me to fall asleep.I started smoking. I can't stop crying. I hate Ukraine. I hate this damned country,i hate everything connected with it.
Yesterday 43 people were burned alive by ukrainian facsists in Odessa. 174 people are dying from severe injuries now in the hospitals. Fascists of 21 century just locked them in the building, locked everybody who just chanced to be there that momenbt, old women and men, everybody.and burned them alive. They killed those who jumped from the 5 floor of the burning building. They were beating people burning alive and ..they were laughting..."Burn,Russians!!"But when everything was finished and they were rummaging the building checking the documents of the dead people...everybody was from Odessa...Ukraininas killed Ukrainians...late at night on their forums they would write to each other - thanks to Kiev and Kharkov, it was a great surprise!Nice barbecue!!BARBECUE!!!I hate Ukraine.
You asked for it, now you've got it
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Ukraine died yesterday.Died for millions of ukrainians who we watching direct stream from Odessa. I wish now I didn't. I can't sleep for the second day and no medicine helps me to fall asleep.I started smoking. I can't stop crying. I hate Ukraine. I hate this damned country,i hate everything connected with it.
Yesterday 43 people were burned alive by ukrainian facsists in Odessa. 174 people are dying from severe injuries now in the hospitals. Fascists of 21 century just locked them in the building, locked everybody who just chanced to be there that momenbt, old women and men, everybody.and burned them alive. They killed those who jumped from the 5 floor of the burning building. They were beating people burning alive and ..they were laughting..."Burn,Russians!!"But when everything was finished and they were rummaging the building checking the documents of the dead people...everybody was from Odessa...Ukraininas killed Ukrainians...late at night on their forums they would write to each other - thanks to Kiev and Kharkov, it was a great surprise!Nice barbecue!!BARBECUE!!!I hate Ukraine.
(http://s57.radikal.ru/i158/1405/08/526d133fb65d.jpg) (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goQ-i7w3TrM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goQ-i7w3TrM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEjziCDbTXY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEjziCDbTXY)
Probably the Sbovoda neo-nazis of Ukraine did this. Their allies of the past did the same to the Jews.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k131/Maxx_1953/s0sR7dL_zpsb34bc0fa.jpg)
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This is what happens when you walk about in another country,waving your Russian flags,beating-up people that don't share your Seperatism views with baseball bats,arming yourselves,and inviting Russia to invade.
You pro-Russian Crimeans started this ,and now you will see the consequences of your actions.
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This is what happens when you walk about in another country,waving your Russian flags,beating-up people that don't share your Seperatism views with baseball bats,arming yourselves,and inviting Russia to invade.
You Crimeans started this ,and now you will see the consequences of your actions.
Really?This was started by this ugly black monkey that is called your president. This damned creature made all this as well as he did it in previous countries. I wish damnation to him and all his children, let them all die long and painfully as all these people whom he killed.
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The West started it when it instigated the overthrow of the elected government of Ukraine as clearing shown on the Victoria Nuland tape. But nothing justifies beating people and burning them alive done by either side.
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justme100,
We don't have a black President in my country..and kindly keep your racist thoughts to yourself.
On another note,it seems Ukrainians and Russians have a barbaric nature ,going by the events happening in Ukraine,with people just looking for an excuse to fight each other and glorying in it.
Reminds me a bit of the football hooligans we used to have here,although women didn't get involved as they do in Ukraine..but the violence is obviously more extreme in Ukraine now.
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Really?This was started by this ugly black monkey that is called your president. This damned creature made all this as well as he did it in previous countries. I wish damnation to him and all his children, let them all die long and painfully as all these people whom he killed.
Classy :rolleyes:
The West started it when it instigated the overthrow of the elected government of Ukraine as clearing shown on the Victoria Nuland tape. But nothing justifies beating people and burning them alive done by either side.
Maxx, you can say seriously with a straight face that you don't attribute any of the events in Ukraine to Putin?
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Maxx, you can say seriously with a straight face that you don't attribute any of the events in Ukraine to Putin?
Sure Putin's hand is in some of the tensions in Ukraine but not in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government. He wanted Yankovich in power just as we would have wanted Batista instead of Castro. What we are seeing is another play of the Cuban missile crisis only with us in the part of the Russians back then. The Russians like us want to protect their national interests and do not want a hostile government on their border. Beating and killing people needs to stop on both sides.
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You asked for it, now you've got it
Double standards at full play. Who counts these pro-Russian Ukrainians, right?
I'm glad Russia has evacuated Crimea from the mad house. I hope more people will think in tune with me now.
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Sure Putin's hand is in some of the tensions in Ukraine but not in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government. He wanted Yankovich in power just as we would have wanted Batista instead of Castro. What we are seeing is another play of the Cuban missile crisis only with us in the part of the Russians back then. The Russians like us want to protect their national interests and do not want a hostile government on their border. Beating and killing people needs to stop on both sides.
Agreed. Yet that will not happen as long as Russia foments civil unrest and threatens to invade. Your analogy of 50 years ago does not apply. It's a different world Maxx, do try to keep up.
Double standards at full play. Who counts these pro-Russian Ukrainians, right?
I'm glad Russia has evacuated Crimea from the mad house. I hope more people will think in tune with me now.
Double standard, really? Those two helicopters certainly counted those pro-Russian Ukrainians, didn't they? Do you suppose they just had those granade launchers handy in their pocket. How much did/do you expect the Ukrainian government to stand-by and watch as the *cough* "pro-Russian Ukrainians" continue to bully and push for civil war?
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Belvis,
There wouldn't be a madhouse in Ukraine,if your country hadn't of instigated it by inflaming the situation by taking Crimea,and encouraging pro-Russian seperatists to cause problems in eastern Ukraine.
Even your government is now admitting they were behind the escalating tensions in Ukraine,by saying they have now lost control of the pro-Russian seperatists ...after previously denying they had been involved at all..so they now admit they were lying..nothing new for Russians though is it ?
Your country is more to blame for the deaths now occurring in Ukraine than anyone.
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Young Ukrainian nazi...in an hour they will burn alive 43 people...
jm100 why are Ukrainian nationalist nazis ?? wasn't this a march for a unified Ukraine , then pro Russian people had to get in their faces...bam!! its time Ukrainians, not fascist show some resistance...this has got to end.
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Double standard, really? Those two helicopters certainly counted those pro-Russian Ukrainians, didn't they? Do you suppose they just had those granade launchers handy in their pocket. How much did/do you expect the Ukrainian government to stand-by and watch as the *cough* "pro-Russian Ukrainians" continue to bully and push for civil war?
I understand your point crystal clear. Burn alive these "pro-Russian Ukrainians" to stop civil war. No sense to talk with you.
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Your country is more to blame for the deaths now occurring in Ukraine than anyone.
My country is in rage after Odessa massacre. Would you so kind to shut up for now.
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I can't sleep for the second day and no medicine helps me to fall asleep.I started smoking. I can't stop crying.
Don't take pills and start smoking. This is destructive behavior. It won't help you and it won't help save lives in Ukraine.
You live in Crimea and were lucky. The things happening in east Ukraine are what I thought would happen first in Crimea but the Ukrainian government was weak at the time and the military didn't have orders to do anything. Anytime there are foreign troops in a nation, that nation would vigorously pursue them. Just as Russian troop were in Crimea, they are in east Ukraine and they've blended themselves in with the civilians. This is irresponsible for any military to do that since they are using civilians as human shields.
Russia is smuggling arms into Ukraine, they don't intend to stop and if the Ukrainian government doesn't do anything, they would eventually have nothing. The Ukrainian military following orders of the current Ukrainian government tells me they respect the current government over their previous president Yanukovych when they refused his orders. Almost half the soldiers in the Ukrainian military are east Ukrainian. Being a former soldier, I suspect most Ukrainian soldiers feel they are flushing the Russians out of their country more than wanting to kill their countrymen.
Earlier I mentioned I wished Obama sent troops into Ukraine the first time Russia complained Russian citizens were being discriminated against not to make Putin angry but to help him as a friend since prior to Ukraine, we acted as friends. My feelings are that American troops will keep the peace and lives were going to be saved because no country would challenge them. China cause Philippines problems and America opened a base in the Philippines. China backs off. North Korea caused problems and America sent warships over there to make sure North Korea doesn't move further. By doing little to nothing in Ukraine has only escalated the situation. There are interests that want to have a say in Ukraine's future.
I understand you're upset with Obama but Russia is escalating this too and shares in the blame for every death and future deaths. It's best America and Russia promote a fair and violent free election on May 25. Both countries can supply monitors and let the Ukrainian people decide their future.
I wish Putin allowed the West to pump billions of dollars into Ukraine and let Ukraine fail so they'd come running back to Russia. Nobody would have to die and Russia would get Ukraine back in it's sphere of influence. Problem is Putin knows former Soviet satellite nations never comes back after they adopt a Western style economy. Like Poland and the Baltics, Ukrainians could make more income than Russians in time. A poor economy is the source of frustration among all Ukrainians regardless of political affiliation.
Some people find joy when pro Ukrainians get killed. Some people find joy when pro Russians get killed. Angry mothers, wives and girlfriends will encourage their men to kill the enemy so that they may experience joy once again. As more people get angry over the deaths, pursuit of revenge goes up. I see things escalating and many more people will have to die before this ends so don't cry endlessly, or rely on medicine and smoking to ease your pain. If I remember correctly, you have a daughter, and it's best you stay strong and help her grow.
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My country is in rage after Odessa massacre. Would you so kind to shut up for now.
Shut up, he explained.
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Really?This was started by this ugly black monkey that is called your president. This damned creature made all this as well as he did it in previous countries. I wish damnation to him and all his children, let them all die long and painfully as all these people whom he killed.
Hey Justme, Obama is partially black, but that is not the reason he has been doing what he is doing...we should leave his race out of the discussion.
Sure Putin's hand is in some of the tensions in Ukraine but not in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government. He wanted Yankovich in power just as we would have wanted Batista instead of Castro. What we are seeing is another play of the Cuban missile crisis only with us in the part of the Russians back then. The Russians like us want to protect their national interests and do not want a hostile government on their border. Beating and killing people needs to stop on both sides.
I have to agree that the USA has helped to create this mess a great deal...those nuland tapes and the monies shouldn't be downplayed....it appears there is quite a bit of support against the current 'leadership' in Kiev... I believe that Russia probably does have people helping with the demonstrations, but there appears to be quite a bit of support from Ukrainians...I would hope this would not turn into a long standing civil war. From my perspective this appears to be instigated by the west (US) and we shouldn't be meddling...I think Russia will be willing to go much deeper into this than us, as this is their backyard. Hopefully the elections produce a new leader that can represent Ukraine in a bipartisan way and bring the two groups together somehow..but that is probably too hopeful.
Fathertime!
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Agreed. Yet that will not happen as long as Russia foments civil unrest and threatens to invade. Your analogy of 50 years ago does not apply. It's a different world Maxx, do try to keep up.
I don't agree. 50 years or 500 years the parallel is the same. The words of historian Patrick J Buchanan for events even further back illustrate:
[/color]And how would we have reacted if a Soviet Union, victorious in the Cold War, effected the expulsion of all U.S. troops and bases from Europe and brought Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua into the Warsaw Pact?
[/color]State’s Victoria Nuland says we invested $5 billion in re-orienting Ukraine away from Russia. How would we respond if we awoke — as Putin did in February — to learn a pro-American government in Mexico City had been overthrown by street mobs financed by Beijing, a pro-China regime installed, and this unelected Mexican regime wanted out of NAFTA in favor of joining an economic union and military alliance with China?
[/color]A U.S. president who landed Marines in Veracruz, as Wilson did in 1914, and sent a 21st-century General “Black Jack” Pershing with an army across the border, would be over 70 percent in the polls, as Putin is today.
[/color]And if he seized Baja, as Putin seized Crimea, it would be a cakewalk to a second term.
[/color]
[/color]Here's a link to those who want to read his article.
[/color]http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/03/patrick-j-buchanan/behind-the-russian-rage/
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Belvis,
I'll shut up telling it how it is when you stop spouting your Russian propaganda on here.
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I have the fullest info possible.I watched online stream for 5 hours made by one of the busters.
Hold your conviction justme. You are far more on the money than your detractors this is a US regime change action. The deaths and violence happening now is the next stage forward by the US to escalate and provoke Putin to cross the border. Just as the war in the former Yugoslavia . Theres is that undeniable similarity in this current crisis as that one. Google Bosnians crimes against Serbs and you'll understand now how these things work.
Don't Ming my fellow Americans. They're products of our silly media.
Always remember that Ukrainians are just as much victims here as ethnics Russians in Ukraine
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Justme, I love this video you posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fCwA1hM-b4
You call them Nazis. I call them patriots.
You reap what you have sown. You wanted war and you are getting war. War is ugly. War always hurts the innocents. War always leaves a scar that no passage of time heals. That is why we must avoid it. But viragos like you wanted it. Now you will get it.
For you dirty old men out there, let take a lusty ogle at these Odessa girls:
(http://america.aljazeera.com/content/ajam/multimedia/photo-gallery/2014/5/photos-ukrainiansandprorussiansclashinodessa/_jcr_content/slideShowImages/slide4/image.adapt.960.high.jpg)
(http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/27/65/75/6250348/7/628x471.jpg)
It does surprise me that pro-Putin war mongers like Fathertime would blame this on America and use the flimsiest excuses like the Nuland tapes. Fact is that 'Benghazi' Nuland and our Ambassador Geoff Pyatt have been impotent and incompetent at handling this crisis.
So tell me with a straight face these idiots are these great demigods of violence?
(http://kissfmlive.com/wp-content/plugins/RSSPoster_PRO/cache/ed104__71668839_2e86bce2-fa2c-4a4f-a325-b8790d3ac511.jpg)
I think we will send troops to Ukraine, BillyB but I don't think it will do any good. Unfortunately the window where sending of troops would have deterred the least liked man in Russia has passed. The probability of miscalculation is so high you could jump out an airplane from it and safely land. And those miscalculations could include thermonuclear war as these Kremlin economic geniuses will cut off everyone else's noses to save their faces.
My advice is vigorous proxy war, economic isolation (which will push us into globo-recession), and asymmetric escalation - challenging Russia in different more vulnerable fronts (China, the Artic, the Baltics, the Caucuses and inside Russia.) The alternative is miscalculation or follow Fathertime's war mongering and let Russia rape Ukraine.
Again JustMe, you reap what you so. Repent. The day of judgment is coming - faster for you I am afraid.
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Hold your conviction justme. You are far more on the money than your detractors this is a US regime change action. The deaths and violence happening now is the next stage forward by the US to escalate and provoke Putin to cross the border. Just as the war in the former Yugoslavia . Theres is that undeniable similarity in this current crisis as that one. Google Bosnians crimes against Serbs and you'll understand now how these things work.
Don't Ming my fellow Americans. They're products of our silly media.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7hzGtmPb6M
Yeah cause Putin is so awesome at war . . . especially guerilla war . . . Humility or wisdom is not your strong suit
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I have the fullest info possible.I watched online stream for 5 hours made by one of the busters.
Then you should know that the building was accidentally set fire by the pro Russians on the fourth floor and nobody locked them inside. You will also have seen these were the same people firing live rounds down into an angry mob and the same group that ambushed and fired shots into the demonstration.
Everyone was from Odessa? You sure about that? No Russians, or hired football hooligans from Kharkiv, or possibly any people from Transnistria at the events?
Nazi's in Odessa? How about this instead -
This is what happens when you walk about in another country,waving your Russian flags,beating-up people that don't share your Seperatism views with baseball bats,arming yourselves, shooting live rounds into crowds, and inviting Russia to invade.
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Justme, I love this video you posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fCwA1hM-b4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fCwA1hM-b4)
You call them Nazis. I call them patriots.
You reap what you have sown. You wanted war and you are getting war. War is ugly. War always hurts the innocents. War always leaves a scar that no passage of time heals. That is why we must avoid it. But viragos like you wanted it. Now you will get it.
For you dirty old men out there, let take a lusty ogle at these Odessa girls:
(http://america.aljazeera.com/content/ajam/multimedia/photo-gallery/2014/5/photos-ukrainiansandprorussiansclashinodessa/_jcr_content/slideShowImages/slide4/image.adapt.960.high.jpg)
It does surprise me that pro-Putin war mongers like Fathertime would blame this on America and use the flimsiest excuses like the Nuland tapes. Fact is that 'Benghazi' Nuland and our Ambassador Geoff Pyatt have been impotent and incompetent at handling this crisis.
So tell me with a straight face these idiots are these great demigods of violence?
(http://kissfmlive.com/wp-content/plugins/RSSPoster_PRO/cache/ed104__71668839_2e86bce2-fa2c-4a4f-a325-b8790d3ac511.jpg)
My advice is vigorous proxy war, economic isolation (which will push us into globo-recession), and asymmetric escalation - challenging Russia in different more vulnerable fronts (China, the Artic, the Baltics, the Caucuses and inside Russia.) The alternative is miscalculation or follow Fathertime's war mongering and let Russia rape Ukraine.
Two mentions, I’m delighted that I’m STILL in your head! lmao As I’ve said earlier, thankfully your aggressive ignorance and opinions have very little traction with US policy. Although we have stoked the beginning of what could turn into another bloody revolution, we won’t be putting our men in the midst of it, hopefully no advanced weaponry either, the overwhelming opinion here in the states is for us to stay out.
Weren't you the one demanding that people who disagree with your proclamations ‘drink drano’? Judging from the manner of your posts and 'reasoning', It appears you have already drank some!
Fathertime!
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Then you should know that the building was accidentally set fire by the pro Russians on the fourth floor and nobody locked them inside.
It's interesting the photo justme and LT later posted were of women making Molotov cocktails. I seen the video of Molotov cocktails being thrown against the building and causing fires.
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It's interesting the photo justme and LT later posted were of women making Molotov cocktails. I seen the video of Molotov cocktails being thrown against the building and causing fires.
Both sides had molotov cocktails. The pro Russians ambushed the demonstrators with bats and guns at the rally, shooting into the crowd and killing several men. My wife knew several people in the crowd. There are numerous videos online showing the timeline of events.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9AMjLBIliw&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9AMjLBIliw&feature=youtu.be)
At the 1 1/2 minute mark you see the crowd disperse from gunshots. Before that time no cocktails are thrown into the building. At the 2 minute mark you can see a fire start from inside the building on the fourth floor.
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FatherTime, of things I did say you haven't bothered to refute that you are pro-Putin shill and that Pyatt-Nuland are rubes.
I am sure everything is our fault: AIDS, tornadoes, and flat tires despite the evidence.
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This is what happens when you walk about in another country,waving your Russian flags,beating-up people that don't share your Seperatism views with baseball bats,arming yourselves,and inviting Russia to invade.
Really?This was started by this ugly black monkey that is called your president. This damned creature made all this as well as he did it in previous countries. I wish damnation to him and all his children, let them all die long and painfully as all these people whom he killed.
The West started it when it instigated the overthrow of the elected government of Ukraine as clearing shown on the Victoria Nuland tape. But nothing justifies beating people and burning them alive done by either side.
Double standards at full play. Who counts these pro-Russian Ukrainians, right?
I'm glad Russia has evacuated Crimea from the mad house. I hope more people will think in tune with me now.
Belvis,
There wouldn't be a madhouse in Ukraine,if your country hadn't of instigated it by inflaming the situation by taking Crimea,and encouraging pro-Russian seperatists to cause problems in eastern Ukraine.
I understand your point crystal clear. Burn alive these "pro-Russian Ukrainians" to stop civil war. No sense to talk with you.
I think it's bad enough that we have fighting going on in Ukraine right now. The last thing we need is more fighting in this forum.
Gentlemen have you forgotten that the reason you came here in the first place was to find love with a FSU woman?
Make love, not war.
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FatherTime, of things I did say you haven't bothered to refute that you are pro-Putin shill and that Pyatt-Nuland are rubes.
I am sure everything is our fault: AIDS, tornadoes, and flat tires despite the evidence.
You know when you study propaganda technique you see throughout the arguments being made here.
PROPAGANDA TECHNIQUES:- Tell The Truth (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#truth)
- Lie (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#lie)
- Lie By Omission and Half-Truths (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#lie_omission)
- Hide the Truth (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hide)
- Lie With Qualifiers (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#qualifiers)
- Lie With Statistics (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#statistics)
- Scream Accusations of Lies and Lying (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#accusations_of_lying)
- Observational Selection (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#observational)
- The Statistics of Small Numbers (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#small_numbers)
- Bury The Lead (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#bury_the_lead)
- The Big Lie (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#big_lie)
- Reversal Of Reality, and Counter-attack by Reversal of Reality (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#reversal)
- Projection (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#projection)
- Make a Virtue out of a Fault (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#make_virtue)
- Unsupported Claims (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#unsupported_claims)
- Imaginary Evidence (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#imaginary_evidence)
- Use Association (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#association)
- The Glittering Generality (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#glittering_generality)
- Exaggerate (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#exaggerate)
- Confusion of Correlation and Causation (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#correlation)
- The Fallacy of a Single Cause (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#single_cause)
- Reverse a Cause-and-Effect Relationship (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#reverse_causation)
- Straw Man (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#straw_man)
- Hypnotic Bait and Switch (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#bait_switch)
- The Either/Or Technique — Bifurcation — the Excluded Middle (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#either_or)
- False Dichotomy (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#dichotomy)
- The Enemy Of My Enemy Is My Friend (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#enemy_of_enemy)
- "Hobson's Choice" (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#Hobsons_choice)
- Alternative Advance (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#alternative)
- "Somebody's got it worse" (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#worse)
- Faulty Syllogism (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#syllogism)
- Non Sequitur (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#non_sequitur)
- Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc — "It happened after 'X', so it was caused by 'X'" (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#post_hoc)
- The Norm of Reciprocity (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#reciprocity)
- Guilt Induction (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#guilt)
- Play On Emotions, Appeal To Emotions (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#emotions)
- Are You Afraid? (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#afraid)
- Induce and Exploit Apophenia (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#apophenia)
- Ad Hominem, Launch Personal Attacks On Opponents (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#ad_hominem)
- Engage in Name Calling (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#name_calling)
- Delegitimize One's Opponent (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#delegitimize_opponent)
- Deflect Criticism and Blame By Delegitimizing It (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#deflect)
- Delegitimize Criticism and Rebuttal in Advance (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#delegitimize)
- Spurious Delegitimization of Evidence or Criticism (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#spurious_delegit)
- Spurious Rejection of a Question (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#spurious_reject)
- Demonize the Enemy (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#demonize)
- Apply Labels (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#labels)
- Stroking Ploys (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#stroking)
- Offloading Blame (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#offloading_blame)
- Blame A Scapegoat (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#scapegoat)
- Blame The Victim (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#blame_victim)
- Blame Somebody Else (Anybody Else) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#blame)
- Blame A Non-Factor (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#nonfactor)
- Claim That There Is A Panacea (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#panacea)
- Claim That There Is A Panmalefic (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#panmalefic)
- Flattery (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#flattery)
- Proof by Anecdote (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#anecdote)
- Double-Talk (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#doubletalk)
- Unprovable Statements (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#unprovable)
- Undisprovable Statements (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#undisprovable)
- The Language Trap (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#language_trap)
- Vague, Undefined, Grandiose Language (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#vague)
- Loaded Language, Euphemisms, and Redefined Words (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#loaded)
- Deception by Renaming (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#renaming)
- Fluffy Phrases (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#fluffy_phrases)
- It's Free! (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#free)
- Use Self-Referential Definitions — Define Something In Terms Of Itself (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#self_referential)
- Pigeon-holing and Labeling (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#pigeonholing)
- Deception Via Mislabeling or Misnaming Things (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#mislabeling)
- Misuse Words (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#misuse_words)
- Moving The Goalposts (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#moving_goalposts)
- Set Low Expections (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#low_expectations)
- The Perfect Solution Fallacy, also known as The Nirvana Fallacy (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#nirvana)
- Sliding Adjectives (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#sliding_adjectives)
- Vague Adjectives (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#vague_adjectives)
- Undefined Terms (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#undefined)
- Pseudo-intellectual Bull (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#pseudo_intellectual)
- Slogans: Simplistic Slogans and Though-Stopping Slogans (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#slogans)
- Oversimplify (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#oversimplify)
- Wrap Yourself In A Higher Power (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#wrap)
- Repeat Old Memes (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#memes)
- Everybody's Doing It, Everybody Knows, and Everybody Says, and The Bandwagon (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#everybody)
- Pomp, Ceremony, and Ritual (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#pomp)
- Humor and Ridicule (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#humor)
- Assume The Major Premise (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#assume)
- Assume Facts Not In Evidence (Petitio Principii) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#petitio_principii)
- Hidden Assumptions (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hidden_assumptions)
- Assume Futures or Future Results (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#assume_futures)
- Fallacy of Presupposition (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#fallacy_of_presupposition)
- Affirmation of the Consequent (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#affirmation_of_the_consequent)
- Irrelevant Conclusion (Ignoratio Elenchi) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#irrelevant_conclusion)
- Confusion of Beliefs with Facts (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#confusion_of_beliefs)
- Substitute Feelings For Facts (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#feelings)
- Confusion of Abstractions with Reality (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#confusion_of_abstractions)
- Circular Reasoning (Circulus in Demonstrando) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#circular_reasoning)
- Appeal to Evil (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#evil)
- Appeal to Higher Principles (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#higher)
- Appeal to Authorities (Argumentum ad Verecundiam) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#authorities)
- Cite Credentials (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#credentials)
- Use Fake Credentials (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#fake_credentials)
- Appeal to Force (Argumentum ad Baculum) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2force)
- Appeal to Popularity — Appeal to the People (Argumentum ad Populum) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2people)
- Appeal to Numbers (Argumentum ad Numerum) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2numbers)
- Dismiss by Numbers (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#dismiss_by_numbers)
- Appeal to Averages (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2averages)
- Appeal to Fame (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2fame)
- Dismiss by Lack of Fame (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#dismiss_by_fame)
- Appeal to Antiquity (Argumentum ad Antiquitatem) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2antiquity)
- Dismiss by Antiquity (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#dismiss_antiquity)
- Appeal to Novelty — Newness (Argumentum ad Novitatem) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#ad_novitatem)
- Dismiss by Novelty (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#dismiss_novelty)
- Appeal to the Exotic (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2exotic)
- Appeal to Tradition (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2tradition)
- Appeal to Normality (http://www.orange-papers.org/appeal2Normality)
- Appeal to Poverty (Argumentum ad Lazarum) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#ad_lazarum)
- Appeal to Wealth (Argumentum ad Crumenam) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2wealth)
- Appeal to Common Folk (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2common_folk)
- Appeal To Stupidity (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#stupidity)
- Antirationalism (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#antirationalism)
- Fake Philosophy: "It's all just an illusion." (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#just_an_image)
- Appeal to Desperation and Argument from Impotence (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#appeal2desperation)
- Appeal to Pity Ad Misericordiam (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#ad_misericordiam)
- Exploit Wishful Thinking, and Tell Them What They Want To Hear (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#wishful_thinking)
- It Ought To Be True, So It Is. (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#ought_2B_true)
- It's Too Terrible To Tell (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#too_terrible)
- Argue from Adverse Consequences (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#adverse_consequences)
- Argue from Beneficial Consequences (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#beneficial_consequences)
- Apply Time Pressure (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#time_pressure)
- Argue For Delay (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#delay)
- Stall (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#stall)
- The Real Scotsman Fallacy (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#real_Scotsman)
- Inverse Real Scotsman Fallacy (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#inv_real_Scotsman)
- Inconsistency (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#inconsistency)
- Compare Apples To Oranges (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#apples_to_oranges)
- Special Pleading (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#pleading)
- Self-Sell (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#selfsell)
- Repetition for Emphasis (Argumentum ad Nauseam) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#repetition)
- Antimetabole (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#antimetabole)
- Reification (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#reification)
- Take Undeserved Credit (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#take_credit)
- Create A Granfalloon (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#granfalloon)
- Spin Doctoring (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#spin)
- The Semi-Attached Figure (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#semiattached)
- Use Exact Numbers (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#exact_numbers)
- Avoid Specific Numbers (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#avoid_specific_numbers)
- Hide Behind Others (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hide)
- The Preacher's We (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#preachers_we)
- Put Words Into Other People's Mouths (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#put_words)
- Tokenism (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#tokenism)
- Testimonials and Stories (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#testimonials)
- The Fallacy of One Similarity (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#one_similarity)
- The Fallacy of One Dissimilarity (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#one_dissimilarity)
- If It Looks Like X, Then It Is X. (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#looks_like)
- A Distinction Without A Difference. (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#distinction)
- Sly Suggestions (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#suggestions)
- Misleading Inference (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#misleading_inference)
- Unsubstantiated Inference and Groundless Claims (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#unsubstantiated_inference)
- Introduce Irrelevant Information as Supporting Evidence (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#irrelevant_evidence)
- False Analogy (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#analogy)
- Conflation, False Equality (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#equality)
- Double Bind (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#double_bind)
- Project Future From Past (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#project_future)
- False Analysis Of History (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#false_history)
- It's Never Happened Before (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#never_happened)
- I Didn't See It Happen, So It Never Happened (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#didnt_see_it)
- Argue Inevitability (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#argue_inevitability)
- Pollyanna's Ploy — Unbridled Optimism (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#Pollyanna)
- Chicken Little's Pessimism (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#Chicken_Little)
- Generalize, and the Sweeping Generality (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#generalize)
- Take Quotes Out Of Context (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#out_of_context)
- Claim That Quotes Are Taken Out Of Context (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#claim_out_of_context)
- Argue from Ignorance (Argumentum ad Ignorantiam) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#ignorance)
- Begging The Question (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#beg_question)
- Meaningless Question (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#meaningless_question)
- Play the Victim, and Self-Victimization (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#self_victimization)
- Claim to Have Special or Secret Knowledge (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#secret_knowledge)
- Bad Math (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#bad_math)
- The Gambler's Fallacy (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#gamblers)
- Mistaken Assumption of Randomness (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#mistaken_randomness)
- Use the Passive Voice (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#passive_voice)
- Use Slanted Language (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#slanted)
- Use Inflamatory Language (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#inflamatory)
- DEBATING TECHNIQUES:
- Refute By Example (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#example)
- Refute By Exposing Contradiction (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#contradiction)
- Minimization and Denial (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#minimize)
- Instant Denial (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#instant_denial)
- Understatement (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#understatement)
- Not As Bad As (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#not_as_bad_as)
- Admit a Small Fault to Cover a Big Denial (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#small_admission)
- False Comparison (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#false_comparison)
- Give a Non-reason Reason (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#nonreason)
- Divert Attention — Change the Subject (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#divert)
- "Well, all I know is..." (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#all_i_know)
- The Positive Accomplishments Sidestep (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#accomplishments_sidestep)
- Declare Victory (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#declare_victory)
- The Story Sourcing Distraction (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#story_sourcing)
- The Drama Queen, the Prima Donna Ploy (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#drama_queen)
- "I'm so offended." (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#offended)
- Claim that "It's unfair." (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#its_unfair)
- Red Herring (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#red_herring)
- The Personal Loyalty Red Herring (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#personal_loyalty)
- Answer A Question That Was Not Asked (To Avoid Answering One That Was Asked) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#answer_question)
- Answer a Question With A Question (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#answer_with_question)
- Surfeit of Questions (Plurium Interrogationum) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#surfeit_of_questions)
- Monopolizing the Question (Hypophora) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#monopolizing_question)
- Obfuscate (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#obfuscate)
- Obfuscate With Bureaucritese (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#bureaucritese)
- Confuse With Technicalese (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#technicalese)
- Attack Without Appearing To Attack By Using Paralipsis or Apophasis) (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#paralipsis)
- Passive-Aggressive Attack (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#passive_aggressive)
- Sarcasm, Condescension, and Patronizing Attitudes (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#sarcasm)
- Adopt an air of superiority (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#superiority)
- Damn with Faint Praise (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#faint_praise)
- Reductio Ad Absurdum (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#reductio)
- Rationalize (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#rationalize)
- Exchange A Term (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#exchange_term)
- Frame The Argument (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#frame_argument)
- Argue with Unrealistic Hypothetical Situations (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hypothetical)
- Misrepresent Your Opponent's Position, or Mischaracterize Your Opponent, or Mischaracterize His Statements or Questions (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#misrepresent)
- Nit-Pick and Split Hairs (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#nitpick)
- Quibble (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#quibble)
- Hit And Run (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hit_and_run)
- Hifalutin' Denunciations (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#highfalutin_denunciations)
- Make Unreasonable Demands (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#unreasonable_demands)
- Make False Demands (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#false_demands)
- Shift the Burden of Proof Onto Your Opponent (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#shift_burden)
- Double Standards (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#double_standards)
- Demand an Uneven Burden of Proof (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#uneven_burden)
- Demand Uneven Standards of Acceptance (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#uneven_acceptance)
- Specious Argument (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#specious_argument)
- Spurious Agreement (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#spurious_agreement)
- Escape via Ignorance (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#escape_via_ignorance)
- Escape to the Future (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#escape_via_future)
- Escape via Relativism (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#escape_via_relativism)
- Escape via Irrationality (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#escape_via_irrationality)
- Pack the House (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#pack_the_house)
- Embarrass Your Opponent (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#embarrass)
- Obtuseness — Refuse to See the Point (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#obtuse)
- Laugh It Off (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#laugh)
- Dominate the Conversation, Talk Non-Stop, and Interrupt Constantly (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#talk_nonstop)
- Escape via Bullying and Intimidation (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#bullying)
- Shut Down the Debate (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#shutdown)
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Then you should know that the building was accidentally set fire by the pro Russians on the fourth floor and nobody locked them inside.
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5211/27652091.2b2/0_8e26c_b7c21df3_XL.jpg)
hired football hooligans from Kharkiv
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6300/27652091.2b2/0_8e269_f9f84185_XL.jpg)
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we won’t be putting our men in the midst of it,
If force was in place in the beginning, lives would be saved, I don't think problems would've started. Obama will get our military involved after millions of Ukrainians die. Russia continues to send weapons to Ukraine for one purpose. We had delayed military action in the former Yugoslavia so I don't see why we wouldn't do the same here. Most Americans are against military action but as always, their hearts will soften after millions die.
State’s Victoria Nuland says we invested $5 billion in re-orienting Ukraine away from Russia
Some people see Putin is reacting to American foreign policy but I see America reacting to Russia's foreign policy. Call it regime change but I see America simply undoing what the USSR did after WWII. It's been slow process but almost complete. Other major nations practice regime changes today and in history. Has little to do with good or evil, just human nature. In every country there are political differences. Smart countries know if they don't help their friends, they will have an enemy. Too many enemies and they cease to exist. The wonderful thing about America is we aren't trying to eliminate Russia from the map. We prefer them to be a friend and stay out of other people's business. It's no surprise every Soviet satellite nation that remained under Russia's influence have horrible economies and a low standard of living for the citizens. Americans have a good life but we'd riot and eject a duly elected president lawfully or unlawfully if our standard of living approaches the same as Ukrainians.
At this time it really doesn't matter who started the fire in Odessa. People have died and was beaten before that. The fire is just one step in this escalating crisis.
Putin sent troops into Crimea for lessor problems. Although he says he all for protecting ethnic Russians, he won't move so fast in east Ukraine as long as the crises escalates the way he wants. Putin prefers a civil war. He prefers east and west Ukrainians dying rather than Russians. Putin will send troops in if the east Ukrainians aren't motivated for a civil war. His excuse for doing that will be that he cares for people.
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Belvis,
You like pictures huh? Here some for you.
Bodies of Yuriy Popravko & Vladimir Rybak
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fc7_1398651073#4zg2bVKQzb2ZDs2e.99
(http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/ll_a_s/2014/Apr/27/LiveLeak-dot-com-fc7_1398651073-BmFDeISCIAAQCJX1_1398651616.jpg?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818bade9f4c40dad49053&ec_rate=230)
Ah the contortions you have to do to love Putin
(http://theblacksphere.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/putin7n-2.jpg)
Putin is a saint!
(http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2013/04/08/p17nkoeq2av6m1qajeeu1c0l1eda4/big.jpg)
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Then you should know that the building was accidentally set fire by the pro Russians on the fourth floor and nobody locked them inside. You will also have seen these were the same people firing live rounds down into an angry mob and the same group that ambushed and fired shots into the demonstration.
If by accident you mean guys on the ground throwing Molotov cocktails at the building windows, then, yeah, by accident. It shows in the video you posted. The same people set the tents on fire.
I highly doubt multiple fires where accidentally started in different parts of the building at the same time.
Everyone was from Odessa? You sure about that? No Russians, or hired football hooligans from Kharkiv, or possibly any people from Transnistria at the events?
How was this information gathered?
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Hold your conviction justme. You are far more on the money than your detractors this is a US regime change action. The deaths and violence happening now is the next stage forward by the US to escalate and provoke Putin to cross the border. Just as the war in the former Yugoslavia . Theres is that undeniable similarity in this current crisis as that one. Google Bosnians crimes against Serbs and you'll understand now how these things work.
Don't Ming my fellow Americans. They're products of our silly media.
Always remember that Ukrainians are just as much victims here as ethnics Russians in Ukraine
It's pretty sad to watch. People have no problem with illegal activities when it comes to something they agree with. Now, when something happens illegally they don't agree with, they are all hot and bothered and the pointy finger comes out blaming.
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My country is in rage after Odessa massacre. Would you so kind to shut up for now.
Why bother posting when you are consistently doing nothing more than repeating Russian propaganda?
Quoting
"How the fire started is under investigation as well as who instigated the violence. Authorities reported that 15 of the dead were Russian citizens and another five killed were from Moldova's Kremlin-backed breakaway region of Transnistria."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/pro-ukrainian-volunteers-track-injured-and-detained-in-odesa-fear-prosecution-by-pro-russian-activists-346107.html
The reality that the pro-Rus apologists will not accept despite overwhelming evidence that it is Putin and Russia responsible for what is happening in Ukraine-- NOT some home grown desire to be part of Russia.
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The reality that the pro-Rus [Putin scum] apologists will not accept despite overwhelming evidence that it is Putin and Russia responsible for what is happening in Ukraine-- NOT some home grown desire to be part of Russia.
:clapping:
It's pretty sad to watch. People have no problem with illegal activities when it comes to something they agree with. Now, when something happens illegally they don't agree with, they are all hot and bothered and the pointy finger comes out blaming.
(http://filmingcops.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/protest-filming-cops-4.jpg)
For the Odessa burn victim mourners:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jzMw9ezE3I
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It's interesting the photo justme and LT later posted were of women making Molotov cocktails. I seen the video of Molotov cocktails being thrown against the building and causing fires.
If you bothered with 2 seconds research you would not only see video of Molotov cocktails being thrown by both sides-- it is also clear you have not watched video--or read the reports of what took place.
The imported pro-Rus "protesters" had no business being there in the first place-- and it was THEY that attacked pro-Ukrainians--including shooting dead a number of them.
There is no support in Ukraine for pro-Rus--without Putins paid hirelings none of this violence would be happening-- Ukrainians are sick of it and want to be left to control there own destiny-- not have it dictated to them by Putin.
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It's pretty sad to watch. People have no problem with illegal activities when it comes to something they agree with. Now, when something happens illegally they don't agree with, they are all hot and bothered and the pointy finger comes out blaming.
Between you and GQ -- and the other pro-Rus apologists all you are doing is making yopurselves look totally ridiculous .On the fringe of any sense of normality and deluded to a ridiculous extent.
Let's hear a few of you condemn Russia's complicity in creating the Ukrainian situation and invading another country.
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Ukraine says Russian envoy's role shows Kremlin in charge of separatists
While Moscow hails him for being an efficient mediator, Kyiv insists that Lukin sent the order to militiamen in Sloviansk from their Russian bosses.
Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) released a transcript of an intercepted telephone conversation between Lukin and Igor Strelkov, head of the pro-Russian self-defense of Sloviansk. According to the SBU, Strelkov’s real name is Igor Girkin, a Russian national and colonel of Russian Military Intelligence.
“I’m in Donetsk right now, in good company… You do sort of have a general idea about the task that I’ve been given, don’t you?” Lukin said.
“Yes, I know, I’ve been warned… I have no objections for one simple reason. All this has been already discussed with me,” Strelkov answered.
According to the conversation, Lukin said that he was traveling to Sloviansk with the secretary general of the Council of Europe to be in Donetsk for a joint operation. “I had the instructions to provide assistance to you and not the European partners,” Strelkov replied to him.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-says-russian-envoys-role-shows-kremlin-in-charge-of-separatists-346140.html
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So,the truth will out..despite the best efforts of the pro Russian/anti west fantasists on here.
Let's see them try and squirm out of the photo showing the pro-Russian aiming his gun...his henchmen standing behind him
Pro-Russian terrorists went to Odessa to cause death..and it has back-fired on them..no wonder Russia is in a rage :rolleyes:
Guess what ? If your troops go into Ukraine be prepared for a lot more rage as your troops come back in body bags.Ukraine isn't Georgia,so you can't bully them in the same way.
The fact remains Russia has stolen another countries land,is fermenting violence in other parts of the same country..and proves the saying "There is no honour among thieves".
Putlers defenders on here can bleat as much as they like ...they're just making themselves look deluded...and more ridiculous as events unfold.
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Putlers defenders on here can bleat as much as they like ...they're just making themselves look deluded.
Immoral bastards, Pro-Putin scum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jzMw9ezE3I
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The reality that the pro-Rus apologists will not accept despite overwhelming evidence that it is Putin and Russia responsible for what is happening in Ukraine-- NOT some home grown desire to be part of Russia.
Hey Jay, I dont agree with a couple items here.
1. It appears to me that there are a lot of regular people involved in these uprisings...probably a lot more that are in support but to frightened to enter.
2. I dont agree with you asserting the goal of the protests is to become part of Russia. I believe the goal is to transform Ukraine into a confederation.
What I see going on is propaganda from both sides. I don't believe the U.S. or Russia is without some culpability. That said, as a citizen and U.S. taxpayer, I don't think we should enter in this conflict. Not every battle is ours. Based on what I've seen/read and our recent history it is not hard to believe we instigated this situation.
fathertime!
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FatherTime, of things I did say you haven't bothered to refute that you are pro-Putin shill and that Pyatt-Nuland are rubes.
I am sure everything is our fault: AIDS, tornadoes, and flat tires despite the evidence.
I found no reason to address what you wrote. What you fail to realize is that labels and name calling don't constitute an argument and often are not worth much more than a chuckle or eye roll
Fathertime!
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I found no reason to address what you wrote. What you fail to realize is that labels and name calling don't constitute an argument and often are not worth much more than a chuckle or eye roll
Fathertime!
What is there to argue about? You won't listen to reason or argument. You won't consider the other side. There are aspects of this I might agree with you, but with you what's the point?
Russia will always be a saint to you. You married it. Nothing I can do to change that. No matter how many bodies are presented before you. That is your guy. You say you aren't religious but . . . .hey whatever, YOLO, right?
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Between you and GQ -- and the other pro-Rus apologists all you are doing is making yopurselves look totally ridiculous .On the fringe of any sense of normality and deluded to a ridiculous extent.
Let's hear a few of you condemn Russia's complicity in creating the Ukrainian situation and invading another country.
Thanks man. I don't think you know how much of a compliment it is to not be included in the same group as you and some of the others on this forum. It gives me happy tingles.
You seem to be an expert on looking ridiculous. I like to check out the other board to see some of the comments from Bo. What I did also see is some guy with the same name saying the same things to people who don't agree with you.
Shouting at people on different boards is pretty silly but not surprising from a guy like you.
As for condemning Russia, I have already posted my views on what Russia has done and don't feel any obligation to say it over and over again just to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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Hey Jay, I dont agree with a couple items here.
1. It appears to me that there are a lot of regular people involved in these uprisings...probably a lot more that are in support but to frightened to enter.
2. I dont agree with you asserting the goal of the protests is to become part of Russia. I believe the goal is to transform Ukraine into a confederation.
What I see going on is propaganda from both sides. I don't believe the U.S. or Russia is without some culpability. That said, as a citizen and U.S. taxpayer, I don't think we should enter in this conflict. Not every battle is ours. Based on what I've seen/read and our recent history it is not hard to believe we instigated this situation.
fathertime!
The future of Ukraine is not-was not- and will not be for Russia to decide. It is an independent country and Russia has no business invading it- or even attempting to influence it-let alone actively sending paid provocateurs etc
Only a very small % of Ukrainians want Russia there--and even if that was so--it is an independent country who should have been left to decide which direction it would take.After all--there is an election pending-- and it is exactly that election that Putin did not want to see the pro-Rus candidates wiped off the floor.
Last--what has happened there has very little to do with the US or US ambitions--it is truly ridiculous to keep pushing that lineThe US has NOT instigated this situation.Even in saying that you are discrediting an extremely popular uprising to rid Ukraine of corruption..Putin's Russia and it's behaviour has now guaranteed greater interest-- but in the context of assisting the Ukrainian people to self determination of it's future and not one imposed by Russia.
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The fact remains Russia ... ,is fermenting violence in other parts of the same country..
Sandro will love this one. :)
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If by accident you mean guys on the ground throwing Molotov cocktails at the building windows, then, yeah, by accident. It shows in the video you posted. The same people set the tents on fire.
I highly doubt multiple fires where accidentally started in different parts of the building at the same time.
How was this information gathered?
It is documented. The fire started on the fourth floor as shown in the video and according to preliminary reports. After rounds are fired down on the mob the building (front door and lower floors) was burned further. The photos you and Belvis refer to occurred after the crowd was shot at (for the second time). Mob mentality takes over at that point.
http://dumskaya.net/news/gschs-prichinoj-pogara-v-dome-profsoyuzov-mogli--035329/ (http://dumskaya.net/news/gschs-prichinoj-pogara-v-dome-profsoyuzov-mogli--035329/)
The soccer hooligans were bused in from Kharkiv along with a number of armed foreigners from other regions. There are pictures online and the police are now confirming it with those detained. There have been small provocations over the last several months in Odessa with foreigners.
http://dumskaya.net/news/miliciya-podtverdila-chto-sredi-zadergannyh-vo-v-035330/ (http://dumskaya.net/news/miliciya-podtverdila-chto-sredi-zadergannyh-vo-v-035330/)
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It is documented. The fire started on the fourth floor as shown in the video and according to preliminary reports. After rounds are fired down on the mob the building (front door and lower floors) was burned further. The photos you and Belvis refer to occurred after the crowd was shot at (for the second time). Mob mentality takes over at that point.
http://dumskaya.net/news/gschs-prichinoj-pogara-v-dome-profsoyuzov-mogli--035329/ (http://dumskaya.net/news/gschs-prichinoj-pogara-v-dome-profsoyuzov-mogli--035329/)
Hey Alex, I wasn't talking about the photo Belvis posted. I was talking about the video you linked too. It was clear that that people were throwing objects at the windows. That is why you see the camera go from the street following what was thrown to that window that showed fire. Also, the video showed multiple fires in different areas of the building.
The soccer hooligans were bused in from Kharkiv along with a number of armed foreigners from other regions. There are pictures online and the police are now confirming it with those detained. There have been small provocations over the last several months in Odessa with foreigners.
http://dumskaya.net/news/miliciya-podtverdila-chto-sredi-zadergannyh-vo-v-035330/ (http://dumskaya.net/news/miliciya-podtverdila-chto-sredi-zadergannyh-vo-v-035330/)
Thanks for the link.
I'm trying to figure out the misinformation from the real stuff. It sounds like Kiev activists came into Odessa and from my understanding they were the ones who started the tent and building fires. Now we have soccer hooligans and trained Russian nationals with guns. I saw the video of the guy with what looked like an automatic shooting into public areas.
This is just crazy and I hate seeing a place I called home trashed and people dying.
Side note: I remember watching a video on those types of soccer fans. I think it was based in Poland. They looked more like gangs than sports fans.
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I'm trying to figure out the misinformation from the real stuff. It sounds like Kiev activists came into Odessa and from my understanding they were the ones who started the tent and building fires. Now we have soccer hooligans and trained Russian nationals with guns. I saw the video of the guy with what looked like an automatic shooting into public areas.
Yes, supposedly there were paid Right Sector members from Kiev assisting the pro Ukraine rally. Both sides had their local soccer teams hooligans. We all know how messy that can be by itself. The pro Russians had outside help from armed men both from Russia and Transnistria. There have been several smaller events involving foreigners like the grenade attack, beatings, etc.
The pro Russians started the event by ambushing the rally and firing shots into the crowd from a side street and rooftops. Several local men were killed and the crowd went berserk, breaking past the police lines to chase down the outsiders. Part of the crowd then moved to the trade building location and burned the tents to evict the pro Russians. More gunfire from inside the building into the crowd and the fire begins.
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Yes, supposedly there were paid Right Sector members from Kiev assisting the pro Ukraine rally. Both sides had their local soccer teams hooligans. We all know how messy that can be by itself. The pro Russians had outside help from armed men both from Russia and Transnistria. There have been several smaller events involving foreigners like the grenade attack, beatings, etc.
The pro Russians started the event by ambushing the rally and firing shots into the crowd from a side street and rooftops. Several local men were killed and the crowd went berserk, breaking past the police lines to chase down the outsiders. Part of the crowd then moved to the trade building location and burned the tents to evict the pro Russians. More gunfire from inside the building into the crowd and the fire begins.
Alex ( & others) --be careful about attributing too much blame on the "Right Sector:" activists--they make an easy target to exaggerate the intent of rallies.
While it is true that it was the "right sector" activists that put the steel in Maidan ( and also took the brunt of many attacks)-they also put the discipline in Maidan that saw some sense of law and order in the aftermath.
Additionally-- all over Ukraine they have sought to encourage moderation at rallies in the face of tremendous provocation-in line with the general theme not to give Putin any excuses.
As at Maidan-- large numbers were ordinary Ukrainians reacting to something they do not want--ie Russian rule. As at Maidan--once again we see guns being used to kill ordinary protesters on the pro-Ukraine side ( 5 dead as I write).
If you bother to read the links ( forum mods prevent me from including translated versions) you will see that in this case--the pro-Rus participants attacked the pro-Ukraine rally-- the outraged Ukrainians then drove those pro-Rus back to the trade union building .
The fact is that the pro-Ukraine people helped save many lives from that building-you read that anywhere yet?
So if these pro-Rus supporters are so peaceful--why are they using violence towards the pro-Ukraine rally? That is a pattern repeated all over Ukraine in the last few weeks . Why have they often been armed and used those guns? the answers are clear enough.
The deniers on the forums seek to rationalise the pro-Rus and Russian provocations--the fact is none of them are wanted in Ukraine.Ukrainians want them to disappear and let Ukrainians decide their future peacefully-- that is an overwhelming sentiment of over 90% of Ukraine.
Without Putin urging them on,discredited oligarchs paying for them-there would be no significent pro-Rus movement.
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Patrick Buchanan just wrote this today:
A Wall Street Journal/NBC Poll reveals that while only 19 percent of Americans want this country more active in world affairs, 47 percent want it to become less active. This confirms a Pew poll where 53 percent of Americans said the United States “should mind its own business internationally.”
It seems Ron Paul's views are starting to take over.
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The future of Ukraine is not-was not- and will not be for Russia to decide. It is an independent country and Russia has no business invading it- or even attempting to influence it-let alone actively sending paid provocateurs etc
Only a very small % of Ukrainians want Russia there--and even if that was so--it is an independent country who should have been left to decide which direction it would take.After all--there is an election pending-- and it is exactly that election that Putin did not want to see the pro-Rus candidates wiped off the floor.
Last--what has happened there has very little to do with the US or US ambitions--it is truly ridiculous to keep pushing that lineThe US has NOT instigated this situation.Even in saying that you are discrediting an extremely popular uprising to rid Ukraine of corruption..Putin's Russia and it's behaviour has now guaranteed greater interest-- but in the context of assisting the Ukrainian people to self determination of it's future and not one imposed by Russia.
I think if you were to substitute USA for RUssia in the highlighted parts of your post it would be just as accurate.
I believe it is ridiculous that you are denying the USA has it's fingerprints all over what is happening. You can call it a 'line' but I, and many others believe that to be true based on the evidence out there, Nuland/5billion among other things. There are plenty of more deadly battles going on around the world, but our govt. has chosen to focus on this one, I believe as GQblues has pointed out numerous times, it pertains to commercial/business interests.
It appears that there is potential for a lot of civil battles and death in the streets and I believe the USA has helped set the scene. I have no doubt that Russia has been getting involved as well. I feel they have much more reason to then the USA ever did. Our citizenry doesn't want us interfering and spending our tax dollars in Ukraine.
Fathertime!
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Alex ( & others) --be careful about attributing too much blame on the "Right Sector:" activists--they make an easy target to exaggerate the intent of rallies.
While it is true that it was the "right sector" activists that put the steel in Maidan ( and also took the brunt of many attacks)-they also put the discipline in Maidan that saw some sense of law and order in the aftermath.
To me the highlighted part of what you said, sounds like an attempt to whitewash or downplay what might otherwise be truthful comments.
I've never really bought into the 'nazi' part of the argument from either side, nevertheless attempting to tell somebody else what to say or not say doesn't seem very helpful.
Fathertime!
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I was hopeful that Ukrainians could come together and overcome their differences. Not so hopeful now :'(
If this is a "win-win" I wonder what a "win-lose" or "lose-lose" situation will look like?
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I was hopeful that Ukrainians could come together and overcome their differences. Not so hopeful now :'(
If this is a "win-win" I wonder what a "win-lose" or "lose-lose" situation will look like?
You must be some sort of fool ;) if you think the way this is developing is a win-win.
I felt the potential was there, but it may not go that way. I think it would have been better had the elections been sooner, as it doesn't appear any leader really speaks for Ukraine at this time. That may still be the case after the election, but being in limbo at this time is a real problem.
Fathertime!
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I was hopeful that Ukrainians could come together and overcome their differences. Not so hopeful now :'(
If this is a "win-win" I wonder what a "win-lose" or "lose-lose" situation will look like?
After Maidan I am sure that is what most thought and wanted. The polling still shows substantial support for that--even in the far most eastern parts of Ukraine.
If Ukrainians had been allowed to define their future without the overt aggression of Putin's Russia I am sure it could have happened. As an example-- the coalition government formed after Maidan has worked relatively well in trying to get the country on the tracks again-- but reality is that the last thing Putin wanted on his doorstep was a successful democracy.
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I was hopeful that Ukrainians could come together and overcome their differences.
That's what the election is for. It would've been best for Russia and the West to cooperate and send monitors to the election to make sure the election is fair for Ukrainians and for the international community so there's no dispute. I think Obama would agree to that but Putin is ruining the upcoming election trying to get the east Ukrainians to start a civil war.
With Russia sending in more arms to angry people, you are going to see more blood. Did anybody expect different?
If this is a "win-win" I wonder what a "win-lose" or "lose-lose" situation will look like?
Obama is in a lose-lose situation. The pro Ukrainians are upset he's not doing enough and the pro Russians are upset he's doing too much. The Americans who don't want him to do anything are upset with him and the Americans who want him to do more are upset with him. Russia is upset with Obama. Obama is losing in so many ways right now. An American president has the power to do many things but the bottom line is he needs to get results and this thing is going to escalate instead of ending peacefully.
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To me the highlighted part of what you said, sounds like an attempt to whitewash or downplay what might otherwise be truthful comments.
I've never really bought into the 'nazi' part of the argument from either side, nevertheless attempting to tell somebody else what to say or not say doesn't seem very helpful.
Fathertime!
The reference made relates to the way the Russians have sought to portray the "Right Sector" activists. In Moscow these are the people branded "Nazis" -- a position promoted repetitively thru Russian media.You can see how effective it was even on this forum--where Russian speakers have repeated that quite often. They have been painted as out of control nazi killers of Russian speaking people -- which is simply another one of Putin's lies.
A closer description would be a group believing in Ukrainian Nationalism--ie seeing Ukraine as Ukraine and not some annexe of Russia. they were a key part in the head on fight to rid the country of corruption and the corrupt influences.That idea has widespread agreement amongst Ukrainians now-- the Russian invasion and meddling in internal Ukrainian matters has seen most Ukrainians now believing in self determination.Russia has sought to create an " us" or "them"situation out of it.That was definitely not how Ukrainians thought about it back at the start of the year.
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If Ukrainians had been allowed to define their future without the overt aggression of Putin's Russia I am sure it could have happened. As an example-- the coalition government formed after Maidan has worked relatively well in trying to get the country on the tracks again-- but reality is that the last thing Putin wanted on his doorstep was a successful democracy.
I tend to agree...however the divide between the east and west is real. It has been there for years. I see to many pro-russians in many of the videos who are from Ukraine.
but being in limbo at this time is a real problem.
So we can count on you to drop the "win-win" from your opinion :) Thank you!
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When I was tired my mother carried me.
She said, "Don't be afraid." But I was only tired.
Where we went there is no more Odessa.
The water there is deeper than the world
And I was tired and fell in in my sleep
And the water drank me. That is what I think.
So now the blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
the ceremony of innocence is drowned
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last
Slouches towards Odessa to be born?
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the divide between the east and west is real. It has been there for years.
Most if not all countries have a divide between citizens, including America. We'd riot against each other and oust our government if America ever get half as inept and corrupt as Ukraine's government. What's going on in Ukraine shouldn't surprise anyone.
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It seems Ron Paul's views are starting to take over. [/size]
Just because rapists are raping your neighbor outside and attempting to rape your mother in the house doesn't mean that capping the rapists inside your home makes you pro-rape. We don't have a commander in chief. The commander in chief is not fit to serve. We have a broken economy, a worn out military & a demoralized people. Those are the conditions by which it makes agreement with Ron Paul possible doesn't say much for Ron Paul.
(http://ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/screenshot.png)
I think if you were to substitute USA for RUssia in the highlighted parts of your post it would be just as accurate.
I believe it is ridiculous that you are denying the USA has it's fingerprints all over what is happening. You can call it a 'line' but I, and many others believe that to be true based on the evidence out there, Nuland/5billion among other things. There are plenty of more deadly battles going on around the world, but our govt. has chosen to focus on this one, I believe as GQblues has pointed out numerous times, it pertains to commercial/business interests.
It appears that there is potential for a lot of civil battles and death in the streets and I believe the USA has helped set the scene. I have no doubt that Russia has been getting involved as well. I feel they have much more reason to then the USA ever did.
And Russia pumped 20 Bn pay off to Yanuk, 2 months ago where as the 5bn was over a period of 20 years. Of course no one would accuse of you of maintaining some perspective. All this from a tapped phone from the people who according to Snowden never spy on anyone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIvRljAaNgg
Does anyone with a straight face tell me that these people are in charge of Ukraine
(http://www.intrepidreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/1-4122-74866.jpg)
& effectively managing this crisis:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rSMxNrN7TRA/Uhh_5xuJHCI/AAAAAAAAI2U/E4S8oin9FKc/s1600/Geoffrey+R.+Pyatt.jpg)
& giving the Ukrainians everything they need to face Putin:
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/4/22/1398155234013/Joe-Biden-gives-Ukraine-s-011.jpg)
But don't let evidence stop you from believing what every it is you believe . . .
Our citizenry doesn't want us interfering and spending our tax dollars in Ukraine.
Really? You don't understand America. This guy does:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/04/bill_oreilly_on_ukraine_reverse_military_cuts_approve_keystone_xl.html
Don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth but he does have the pulse of the nation.
It would've been best for Russia and the West to cooperate
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/GTY_kerry_lavrov_2_kab_140305_16x9_992.jpg)
Honestly not a wise sentiment here as even you must concede that Fathertime's bestie Vladimir Vladimirovich has no interest in cooperating nor should we trust such cooperation.
With Russia sending in more arms to angry people, you are going to see more blood. Did anybody expect different?
Father time, what a shock!
the bottom line is he needs to get results
Not exactly his strong suits unless you want those results to be not good, then he's awesome at that!
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DUjgu6DsHTc/UJNL9DjwP_I/AAAAAAAAgMM/4Qkl2udeSPY/s640/ObamaMomJeans.jpg)
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I think it's bad enough that we have fighting going on in Ukraine right now. The last thing we need is more fighting in this forum.
Gentlemen have you forgotten that the reason you came here in the first place was to find love with a FSU woman?
Make love, not war.
Yes It gets rather boring after a while listening to the same b*** especially from armchair experts who do not even live in any of these countries. lol or seldom visit.
I will be uploading a newer version of my site end of next week available in German/italian/English/French and Russian I could do with some genuine feedback I hope it will be far superior to anything else out there and of course it is totally FREE for all forum members 8)
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Yes It gets rather boring after a while listening to the same b*** especially from armchair experts who do not even live in any of these countries.
Exactly my thought every time I log in this forum and see the title of this thread.
Russianwomendiscussion about war between USA and Russia. :cluebat:
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Exactly my thought every time I log in this forum and see the title of this thread.
Russianwomendiscussion about war between USA and Russia. :cluebat:
Doll, you seem to have been strangely silent on this issue. What is your take on the events in Ukraine? :D
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What I REALLY think I am not going to write here)))
What I CAN say is it is beyond my understanding how it is possible between two closest nations- Russians and Ukrainians.
As for USA and this problem then this is what my husband (born American ) said," It is NONE of American business at all"
Once again- he is a born American and very sensible.
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Yes It gets rather boring after a while listening to the same b***
Every time you come to this forum, you participate in the same boring sh!t. Addicting isn't it? That your problem, not ours. People have family over there. Some have gf's and others are simply in communication stages with ladies but it affects most people reading this forum, especially if the guy's lady is from Ukraine or Russia. As long as there are problems over there, we will be talking about it so either refrain from reading or get used to it.
especially from armchair experts who do not even live in any of these countries. lol or seldom visit.
Each time you come here, you leave an insult. Same stuff, different day. You do understand the future of Ukraine depends on support from people who don't live there? Since you live there, you must be the expert and got it all figured out. Tell us when and how this crisis will end?
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Just because rapists are raping your neighbor outside and attempting to rape your mother in the house doesn't mean that capping the rapists inside your home makes you pro-rape. We don't have a commander in chief. The commander in chief is not fit to serve. We have a broken economy, a worn out military & a demoralized people. Those are the conditions by which it makes agreement with Ron Paul possible doesn't say much for Ron Paul.
(http://ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/screenshot.png)
And Russia pumped 20 Bn pay off to Yanuk, 2 months ago where as the 5bn was over a period of 20 years. Of course no one would accuse of you of maintaining some perspective. All this from a tapped phone from the people who according to Snowden never spy on anyone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIvRljAaNgg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIvRljAaNgg)
Does anyone with a straight face tell me that these people are in charge of Ukraine
(http://www.intrepidreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/1-4122-74866.jpg)
& effectively managing this crisis:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rSMxNrN7TRA/Uhh_5xuJHCI/AAAAAAAAI2U/E4S8oin9FKc/s1600/Geoffrey+R.+Pyatt.jpg)
& giving the Ukrainians everything they need to face Putin:
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/4/22/1398155234013/Joe-Biden-gives-Ukraine-s-011.jpg)
But don't let evidence stop you from believing what every it is you believe . . .
Really? You don't understand America. This guy does:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/04/bill_oreilly_on_ukraine_reverse_military_cuts_approve_keystone_xl.html (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/04/bill_oreilly_on_ukraine_reverse_military_cuts_approve_keystone_xl.html)
Don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth but he does have the pulse of the nation.
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/GTY_kerry_lavrov_2_kab_140305_16x9_992.jpg)
Honestly not a wise sentiment here as even you must concede that Fathertime's bestie Vladimir Vladimirovich has no interest in cooperating nor should we trust such cooperation.
Father time, what a shock!
Not exactly his strong suits unless you want those results to be not good, then he's awesome at that!
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DUjgu6DsHTc/UJNL9DjwP_I/AAAAAAAAgMM/4Qkl2udeSPY/s640/ObamaMomJeans.jpg)
Thanks for all the mentions, it is superb to know that there is a lot of distance between what you think and what I think. There are no specifics here to address though, just silly analogies and photos....just more eye rolls.
Fathertime!
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So we can count on you to drop the "win-win" from your opinion :) Thank you!
For the moment, but it could reappear if/when Ukraine brings somebody to the negotiating table with the real clout and ability to negotiate.
Obama is in a lose-lose situation. The pro Ukrainians are upset he's not doing enough and the pro Russians are upset he's doing too much. The Americans who don't want him to do anything are upset with him and the Americans who want him to do more are upset with him. Russia is upset with Obama. Obama is losing in so many ways right now. An American president has the power to do many things but the bottom line is he needs to get results and this thing is going to escalate instead of ending peacefully.
I believe this is correct Billyb. I don't blame Obama TOO much, at this point regardless of which fork in the road he takes he is going to be heavily criticized. The people would flee from him further if he were to get us more involved in this far flung conflict. I don't want to see heavy sanctions either myself (as it will hurt us too), but there has to be a compromise somewhere so if that is where he takes it, I can live with that. It is not like we don't have serious stuff to focus on here. I'd like to see billions more spent on huge water projects and things of the like, rather than trying to micromanage politics in Ukraine...
Fathertime!
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....but reality is that the last thing Putin wanted on his doorstep was a successful democracy.
Agree. Putin wants a weak and corrupt Ukraine. I do not know if Putin's policies have made Ukraine this way, or whether Ukraine did it to themselves.
Ukraine was given its independence 20 years ago. 20 years is a long time. Instead of progressing, the country went backwards over that time. For sure Russia played a part in those 20 years, yet Ukraine had the opportunity to make some progress. Its elected leadership failed, again and again.
So maybe the pro-Russian separatists have no faith in any form of Ukrainian government. They want the same bailout given to Crimea rather than years of austerity of a pro-Western tilt.
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What I REALLY think I am not going to write here)))
What I CAN say is it is beyond my understanding how it is possible between two closest nations- Russians and Ukrainians.
As for USA and this problem then this is what my husband (born American ) said," It is NONE of American business at all"
Once again- he is a born American and very sensible.
As you wish :D Too bad though, I would have like to hear it. I agree with your hubby but unfortunately the American government and foreign governments want America to be involved everywhere.
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Thanks for all the mentions, it is superb to know that there is a lot of distance between what you think and what I think. There are no specifics here to address though, just silly analogies and photos....just more eye rolls.
The same can be said of you. You call those who disagree with you war mongers because they want the Ukrainians to be able to defend themselves. You just want Russia to commit aggression. You dismiss my pictures & arguments, but you have no arguments or facts yourself. We have been down this road. We have argued on another thread. I responded to your every point and you quit. Now you want to ridicule as it is the only option you have left to justify yourself.
1) How much money do you estimate Russia is pumping into Ukraine? And the US-EU-NATO combined?
2) How many troops Russia has in Ukraine? And the US-EU-NATO combined?
3) How many pipelines does Russia have that run through Ukraine? And the US-EU-NATO combined?
4) True or False question, I know you are not that smart or diligent, the US has a trade deficit with Ukraine?
Bonus questions:
A) and what about Russia?
B) the EU?
C) ballpark, how much trade does the US and Ukraine have?
D) And Russia?
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Putin wants a weak and corrupt Ukraine.
It will reflect poorly on Putin's legacy that he lost Ukraine. It will also make Putin look bad in front of his citizens if Ukraine adopts a Western style economy which eventually could be as successful as those in Poland and the Baltics where citizens earn more income than the average Russian.
I do not know if Putin's policies have made Ukraine this way, or whether Ukraine did it to themselves.
No country has ever become successful doing things alone. They need to do business with other nations to succeed long term. Those nations that moved away from Russia are doing much MUCH better than those such as Moldova and Ukraine who stayed under Russia's influence. West Germany and Japan recovered very well after WWII under the guidance of the West. East Germany lagged far behind in the same period.
Ukraine shares in some of the blame allowing themselves to remain under Russia's influence so long but we have to remember, there are a lot of pro Russians there compared to pro Russians in the Baltics and Poland so Ukraine has a much tougher road to travel in moving West.
Joe Biden has some rough words for Ukrainian lawmakers when he spoke to them. He wasn't afraid to talk to them about the level of corruption in their system. I hope the money our administration is sending them to rebuild their country has monitors to make sure it gets used wisely instead of going into some people's pockets.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-vogl/kiev-ukraine-joe-biden-talks-_b_5241784.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
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There is a good article from Simon Shuster of Time magazine taking a sympathetic view of the police.
http://twitter.com/shustry
http://time.com/81475/ukrainian-policemen-stand-by-as-pro-russian-separatists-seize-control/
The freedom lovers and freedom haters may enjoy it.
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The same can be said of you. You call those who disagree with you war mongers because they want the Ukrainians to be able to defend themselves. You just want Russia to commit aggression. You dismiss my pictures & arguments, but you have no arguments or facts yourself. We have been down this road. We have argued on another thread. I responded to your every point and you quit. Now you want to ridicule as it is the only option you have left to justify yourself.
1) How much money do you estimate Russia is pumping into Ukraine? And the US-EU-NATO combined?
2) How many troops Russia has in Ukraine? And the US-EU-NATO combined?
3) How many pipelines does Russia have that run through Ukraine? And the US-EU-NATO combined?
4) True or False question, I know you are not that smart or diligent, the US has a trade deficit with Ukraine?
Bonus questions:
A) and what about Russia?
B) the EU?
C) ballpark, how much trade does the US and Ukraine have?
D) And Russia?
I disagree with most of what you are saying and I don’t count some of your ‘responses’ as responses…I believe you are way too interested in us getting involved in armed conflict and I believe that has distorted your train of thought...I don’t care to entertain your silliness because you have already proven to be perfectly willing to distort whatever is said or disfigure the position of others. There are other posters who don’t do that, and I’d rather exchange points of view with what I see as rational people.
When you take a position I am happy to counter the positions you take, if I don’t agree… and it doesn’t really matter to me that you take it personally or commence label time…if you feel ‘ridiculed’ it is your own fault…you are free to focus on me and distort the positions I take…when I feel like it I’ll point this out, other times I’ll just let it stand because it is so obvious I won’t feel the need to address it at all. If there ever comes a point where I feel you are making points fairly I’ll participate, meanwhile no thanks.
Fathertime!
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I disagree with most of what you are saying and I don’t count some of your ‘responses’ as responses…I believe you are way too interested in us getting involved in armed conflict and I believe that has distorted your train of thought...I don’t care to entertain your silliness because you have already proven to be perfectly willing to distort whatever is said or disfigure the position of others. There are other posters who don’t do that, and I’d rather exchange points of view with what I see as rational people.
When you take a position I am happy to counter the positions you take, if I don’t agree… and it doesn’t really matter to me that you take it personally or commence label time…if you feel ‘ridiculed’ it is your own fault…you are free to focus on me and distort the positions I take…when I feel like it I’ll point this out, other times I’ll just let it stand because it is so obvious I won’t feel the need to address it at all. If there ever comes a point where I feel you are making points fairly I’ll participate, meanwhile no thanks.
Fathertime!
How many US troops (DoD ID card holders) do you guess are in Ukraine right now?
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RWD MEMBERS IN UKRAINE - IS THIS TRUE?
CNN reports in Donetsk only "a few hundred are involved in political agitation."
Other than the insurgents taking control of regional government administration building, life is normal. "....up-market fashion stores are busy; the leaders of the Ukrainian football league, Shakhtar Donetsk, play home games as scheduled; cafes are full in the spring sunshine; the airport is open and functioning normally."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/29/world/europe/ukraine-lister-small-numbers/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
If this is indeed the case, it is good. The May 25 election will presumably take place without much interference.
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You do understand the future of Ukraine depends on support from people who don't live there?
Since when?
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Since when?
Since the pro Russian's needed the backing of Russia and the pro Ukrainians need the backing of the West. Smart Ukrainian leadership understands they can't survive without outside help. Do you feel pro Russians or pro Ukrainians aren't getting any help at this time?
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Since the pro Russian's needed the backing of Russia and the pro Ukrainians need the backing of the West. Smart Ukrainian leadership understands they can't survive without outside help. Do you feel pro Russians or pro Ukrainians aren't getting any help at this time?
Just for you in a p-l-a-i-n English- domestic problems are domestic problems of a SOUVEREIN state (AND ONLY), so let it resolve this problem itself.
Got it?
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Just for you in a p-l-a-i-n English- domestic problems are domestic problems of a SOUVEREIN state (AND ONLY), so let it resolve this problem itself.
Got it?
I'll forward your thoughts to Putin.
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Please do
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My ex lives in Crimea, so I know from him how it is there- I mean what people of Crimea feel. They willingly wanted to be the part of Russia. Willingly!
What does USA have to do with it?
For those who wanted my opinion- it is between Russia and Ukraine and nobody else.
Personally I have nothing against either of these nations at all.
Never had.
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My ex lives in Crimea, so I know from him how it is there- I mean what people of Crimea feel. They willingly wanted to be the part of Russia. Willingly!
What does USA have to do with it?
For those who wanted my opinion- it is between Russia and Ukraine and nobody else.
Personally I have nothing against either of these nations at all.
Never had.
What business is it of Russia to interfere in the internal affairs of another country? When Russia learns how to behave in not invading sovereign countries and respect international agreements it was a party to--then maybe you can expect others to also.
I said this before-- what is happening now in Ukraine is NOT the USA doing-- it is Putins megalmaniac ambition to recreate the Soviet Union.
There is NO justification for Russian invading the Crimea-- there is NO justification for Russia's invasion of mainland Ukraine or it's attempt to destabilise Ukraine.
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Jay, I think it is more than that. It is a big game IMHO.
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Jay, I think it is more than that. It is a big game IMHO.
So who in your opinion is playing the puppet master?
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Faux, do you remember I am Russian? Do you remember Snowden?
You think yourself about bigger picture.
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Just for you in a p-l-a-i-n English- domestic problems are domestic problems of a SOUVEREIN state (AND ONLY), so let it resolve this problem itself.
Got it?
And who are you exactly?
Just another foreigner talking about the politics of a foreign country.
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Me? I am a Russian citizen who DID NOT participate in this thread.
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Faux, do you remember I am Russian? Do you remember Snowden?
You think yourself about bigger picture.
Yes to all of the above. Thank you for answering the question ;D
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Me? I am a Russian citizen who DID NOT participate in this thread.
Don't call yourself a citizen. You are at best a Putinist slave. A citizen would imply you exercise responsibilities. No evidence of that otherwise you would not let this beast emerge in your midst or you would leave, but you presume to pontificate to us what we should think.
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Don't call yourself a citizen. You are at best a Putinist slave. A citizen would imply you exercise responsibilities. No evidence of that otherwise you would not let this beast emerge in your midst or you would leave, but you presume to pontificate to us what we should think.
Most of your posts are name calling those you don't agree with. Frankly, most of what I have read of you are ramblings of a angry little dude. You may be the first person I put on ignore just so I don't have to waste time scrolling past your long winded posts full of pictures that contribute nothing.
I have always found the most radical religious types to be the most judgmental.
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I'll forward your thoughts to Putin.
What about the EU and US?
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You may be the first person I put on ignore just so I don't have to waste time
thx!
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Yes It gets rather boring after a while listening to the same b*** especially from armchair experts who do not even live in any of these countries. lol or seldom visit.
I will be uploading a newer version of my site end of next week available in German/italian/English/French and Russian I could do with some genuine feedback I hope it will be far superior to anything else out there and of course it is totally FREE for all forum members 8)
lol You living there doesn't make you an expert either ole chap. I take it you are a fluent Russian speaking expat in Russia. Too bad this is all happening in Ukraine.
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Don't call yourself a citizen. You are at best a Putinist slave. A citizen would imply you exercise responsibilities. No evidence of that otherwise you would not let this beast emerge in your midst or you would leave, but you presume to pontificate to us what we should think.
Sir, see this sentense of your highlited?
That's why I didn't post in this thread.
Sick of brainwashed people
(http://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSx43TurL8YOmXqKt7YVA-HYbzu-rPfsLIlQVpUQSo9hzSyL77e1FImuyE) (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.forum.opolshe.ru/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D10554%26start%3D0%26sid%3D42d304f9a2fce292110c99f25ded9dae&sa=U&ei=XNtmU-mlAaWIyAH9pIGYAg&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAw&usg=AFQjCNFiEbatfxd6cS7A__XHOS-QB7zTeA)
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I tend to agree...however the divide between the east and west is real. It has been there for years. I see to many pro-russians in many of the videos who are from Ukraine.
Exactly and that is why I get a chuckle at people who try and say those Ukrainians are Russians trying to stir up trouble.
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Sir, see this sentense of your highlited?
That;s why I didn't post in this tread.
Sick of brainwashed people
:rolleyes:
Doll, I just put this simple man on ignore and here you are quoting him. :P
In the other thread he was just complaining about people calling others names when they don't agree. You can't discuss anything with such people. Best to accept them for what they are and not waste time.
They suck up western propaganda like nothing and condemn everyone that doesn't believe that propaganda to be influenced by Putin and his propaganda.
The US has history of doing the same things they have done in Kiev. You will see most of these types of guys gloss over that fact. Hell, there is a conversation by the US talking about who should run Ukraine. Yet, they change the subject and continue posting links from Yahoo.
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Don't call yourself a citizen. You are at best a Putinist slave. A citizen would imply you exercise responsibilities. No evidence of that otherwise you would not let this beast emerge in your midst or you would leave, but you presume to pontificate to us what we should think.
Please, do us a favor- don't think at all hahaaaaaaaaaaaa
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Please, do us a favor- don't think at all hahaaaaaaaaaaaa
ha! What he does isn't called thinking!
Doll, I just put this simple man on ignore and here you are quoting him. :P
.
Hey LFU!
I encourage you to take the guy off of ignore. Keep him talking as he can't help but harm his own cause, which is good for us that would like to keep America out of these foreign affairs.
Fathertime!
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Hey LFU!
I encourage you to take the guy off of ignore. Keep him talking as he can't help but harm his own cause, which is good for us that would like to keep America out of these foreign affairs.
Fathertime!
haha You can see not many members are getting involved in discussion with him. There is a reason. I rather not have to scroll through a wall of photos and gibberish. Anyone can see from his posting history whether to take him serious or not.
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My ex lives in Crimea, so I know from him how it is there- I mean what people of Crimea feel. They willingly wanted to be the part of Russia. Willingly!
What does USA have to do with it?
For those who wanted my opinion- it is between Russia and Ukraine and nobody else.
Personally I have nothing against either of these nations at all.
Never had.
Hey Doll, thanks for offering your opinion. As you can see experiences/opinions like yours are unwelcome from some. If you don't mind me asking, you mentioned that your Ex is living in Crimea...what did he think about the 97% vote for annexation? I think that couldn't possibly be correct...but it still seems clear that a majority probably are happy they are now formally a part of Russia and voted that way.
Fathertime!
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Don't call yourself a citizen. You are at best a Putinist slave. A citizen would imply you exercise responsibilities. No evidence of that otherwise you would not let this beast emerge in your midst or you would leave, but you presume to pontificate to us what we should think.
Beast- who?
Would leave- where to?
:D :D :D
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What about the EU and US?
What about the US and the EU? Did you note some Americans and Germans, Brits or Italians burnt in the BBQ? How about on the other government buildings? Maybe in the Russian tanks? You're pissing and moaning about folks sucking on Western media like a crack pipe yet, that is exactly what you are doing on the Putin propaganda machine.
I like you LFU. Usually you make a hellava lot of sense. Yet, once in a great while you're brain dead, like now. Why is it that because Putin wants to shit all over Ukraine that the US or the EU has to be at fault? You and several others seem to have to self defecate. That is a sickness friend. Perhaps, Putin wishes to decimate Ukraine and it has nothing to do the West?
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Just for you in a p-l-a-i-n English- domestic problems are domestic problems of a SOUVEREIN state (AND ONLY), so let it resolve this problem itself.
Got it?
Doll, I don't think you will find many people here who disagree with this answer. However, why is Russia interfering in the SOVEREIGN state of Ukraine? No matter how many people in Crimea wanted to be part of Russia (and I have no problem accepting that a majority did, even if not the ridiculous "97%"), Crimea is still part of the SOVEREIGN state of Ukraine. If that part of the country truly wants to secede, then let Ukraine run a referendum which includes the choice for people to remain part of their SOVEREIGN country.
As for what is happening in eastern Ukraine, Russia has admitted that its own security services are involved in the unrest which is going on, even if they haven't gone as far as admitting that their own troops have crossed the border. Is that not also interfering in the domestic affairs of a SOVEREIGN state?
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Just for you in a p-l-a-i-n English- domestic problems are domestic problems of a SOUVEREIN state (AND ONLY), so let it resolve this problem itself.
Got it?
For those who wanted my opinion- it is between Russia and Ukraine and nobody else.
Your first quote doesn't match your second.
My ex lives in Crimea, so I know from him how it is there- I mean what people of Crimea feel. They willingly wanted to be the part of Russia. Willingly!
Check out Article 73 of Ukraine's Constitution. Any alterations of it's borders have to be decided on a vote by all Ukrainians. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say Ukraine's borders are to be decided by Crimea and Russia.
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Sir, see this sentense of your highlited?
That's why I didn't post in this thread.
Sick of brainwashed people
(http://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSx43TurL8YOmXqKt7YVA-HYbzu-rPfsLIlQVpUQSo9hzSyL77e1FImuyE) (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.forum.opolshe.ru/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D10554%26start%3D0%26sid%3D42d304f9a2fce292110c99f25ded9dae&sa=U&ei=XNtmU-mlAaWIyAH9pIGYAg&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAw&usg=AFQjCNFiEbatfxd6cS7A__XHOS-QB7zTeA)
I understand you Doll, all too well. Put on ignore LiveFromUkraine suggest. Yes, but then one would have to put a whole lot of misguided men here on ignore. Have you seen the Movies "Aliens"? They're like that. Can't be reasoned With, they are unable to feel shame and sympathy for the victims of their neo-nazi heroes. Better to just make comments from time to time when you have nothing else to do or for personal Entertainment.
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Beast- who?
Would leave- where to?
:D :D :D
The beast is Putin according to LordT and you are responsible for him because people like you voted for him. This then makes you unqualified to be an American citizen so you must leave the America and go back to Russia. I think you will be given enough time to pack but only your clothes. All other things you have were as a result of living in the "land of the free" and must be left behind for good Americans who agree with LordT and BillyB. I thought the embassy staff taught this to you at that interview when you were getting your visa?
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What about the US and the EU? Did you note some Americans and Germans, Brits or Italians burnt in the BBQ? How about on the other government buildings? Maybe in the Russian tanks? You're pissing and moaning about folks sucking on Western media like a crack pipe yet, that is exactly what you are doing on the Putin propaganda machine.
I like you LFU. Usually you make a hellava lot of sense. Yet, once in a great while you're brain dead, like now. Why is it that because Putin wants to shit all over Ukraine that the US or the EU has to be at fault? You and several others seem to have to self defecate. That is a sickness friend. Perhaps, Putin wishes to decimate Ukraine and it has nothing to do the West?
haha Well, I have been trying to learn Spanish so maybe that part of my brain has been severely damaged.
Anyway, I was talking about what started all of this nonsense. Not so much about Odessa. When talking about violence, no one side has a monopoly on violent activities.
Didn't Kiev protesters take over government buildings? Are you saying the West wasn't involved in the uprising that resulted in a new government? If I voted for the current government I would be seriously pissed off at that point and I don't doubt many Ukrainians were as well judging from what has happened since.
This is the stuff I have been talking about. The idea that people can do this and get away with it will give others the reasoning to do the same in other cities.
Ron Paul even acknowledged the west involvement.
He adds that the IMF has dangled $17 billion in front of the Kiev government if it can rid eastern Ukrainian cities of “Russian supporters.” These kinds of measures, Paul said, explain “more aggressive activity by the Western Ukrainians to try to conquer these cities” and show that Western powers do not have the Ukrainian people’s best interests at heart.
http://rt.com/usa/156512-ron-paul-ukraine-war/ (http://rt.com/usa/156512-ron-paul-ukraine-war/)
I think you got things backward. Just because some of us are saying the US and EU were to blame doesn't mean we think Russia isn't to blame. Ukraine became a battle ground just like we have seen in the past. I posted a link to an article discussing how Carter started funding an anti-government group in Afghanistan that lured the Soviet Union into their own "Vietnam". Carter previously stated he funded the group because of Soviet involvement but later the truth came out that he started funding 6 months prior to Soviet involvement. This is the back handed bullshit I can't stand.
I see the same thing happening here. It is hardly self defecating to see these actions and say it isn't right.
I have already stated many times that I don't agree with what Russia is doing. The west poked a bear and now Ukraine has to deal with it. Hardly fair, if the US and EU is going to get involved, they should take it all the way by going to war.
Otherwise we should stay completely out.
I don't think Putin wants to decimate Ukraine . I do think he wants to show the west he can't be pushed around and will tear apart Ukraine in order to do it. Is Russia the bully or is the US the bully? To be honest, for me, it's hard to say.
My line of thinking, Putin is drawing a line in the sand here.
It may look like we are taking sides but most of the people here agree that Russia isn't doing he right thing but a few of us believe that the US and EU screwed Ukraine royally. That is the disagreements you are seeing and the minute we say "Wait a minute", we are called Putinists.
But here we are arguing about who has it worst, who is more violent and who started it all. Odessa was my home for over a year, most of the people that I have met and spent time would say they are Russian. It doesn't mean they want Russia to rule over them but it does mean they have strong ties to Russia. Reading some of the posts here you would think all Ukrainians are rejoiced over the new government and any hatred is merely Russian antagonist. Reality is, when the new government was put into place, it took the voting voice away from a lot of people and I would bet many are pissed off and rightly so.
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What about the US and the EU? Did you note some Americans and Germans, Brits or Italians burnt in the BBQ? How about on the other government buildings? Maybe in the Russian tanks? You're pissing and moaning about folks sucking on Western media like a crack pipe yet, that is exactly what you are doing on the Putin propaganda machine.
I like you LFU. Usually you make a hellava lot of sense. Yet, once in a great while you're brain dead, like now. Why is it that because Putin wants to shit all over Ukraine that the US or the EU has to be at fault? You and several others seem to have to self defecate. That is a sickness friend. Perhaps, Putin wishes to decimate Ukraine and it has nothing to do the West?
This post is a load of hoooey or defecation! You chastise LFU for what you say is, sucking on Putin propaganda. Why? Because he believes the USA is helped create this mess. You DON"T see him repeating every other Russian theory out there like it is ALL true. There is quite a bit of evidence that we have helped create what is going on behind the scenes. Your evidence that we were not involved is: No Americans were burned in the govt. building or occupying Russian tanks...that is weak and not evidence at all. If you feel LFU or others shouldn't state their case, then provide the overwhelming evidence that we are just innocent bystanders. There is plenty of signs that we are involved too deeply. I wish we were on the sidelines, but it seem pretty clear that we weren't.
You have provided an alternate theory which is that Putin wants to decimate Ukraine. You have stated this before. That is a theory unless you can prove it, time will tell if it comes to fruition, but for the moment, I see tampering from both 'superpowers' and I live in one of the countries and want us to get the hell outta the business of other countries like Ukraine.
Fathertime!
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The beast is Putin according to LordT and you are responsible for him because people like you voted for him. This then makes you unqualified to be an American citizen so you must leave the America and go back to Russia. I think you will be given enough time to pack but only your clothes. All other things you have were as a result of living in the "land of the free" and must be left behind for good Americans who agree with LordT and BillyB. I thought the embassy staff taught this to you at that interview when you were getting your visa?
I will leave my wardrobe to Billy's wife. Just let me take my broom.
(http://s10.rimg.info/2513b87909483337e7f807380e18328b.gif) (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-742457031.html)
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...Didn't Kiev protesters take over government buildings? Are you saying the West wasn't involved in the uprising that resulted in a new government? If I voted for the current government I would be seriously pissed off at that point and I don't doubt many Ukrainians were as well judging from what has happened since....
Amusing, isn't it? You have the full audio of the US's direct involvement in choosing who gets to run an illegitimate government, yet folks won't even acknowledge it like it never happened. LOL. Oh and btw, FWIW, I agree with VNuland that Klitchko was not the right one to 'lead'.
I suppose it undermines all the other dramatics. So they'll just get to it later on. Minor detail...
What's happening in Ukraine is a carbon copy of what happened in Kosovo, Serbia, Albania, Croatia, and Bosnia in the '90s. You headline the atrocities done by one side of the conflict and you earn a pass to intervene.
The US/EU have Putin exactly where they want him. The recent escalation in Odessa is by design to provoke a Russian military strike. It'll likely happen a few more times. If Putin advances into Ukraine, then he's demonize as a marauder attacking a helpless country like Ukraine, the new 'Butcher of the Black Sea' - and could very well trigger regional war, in the least - multi-nation at worst. It isn't difficult to understand that Russia simply can't afford a prolonged war.
If Putin doesn't act despite the escalation of violence against ethnic-Russians in Ukraine, then he/Russia is automatically labeled 'weak', which is completely counter to what Putin aspired for Russia and thereby discredited.
So he's screwed right now either way. So one only need to ask a simple question into all these, how exactly do any of this crisis benefit Putin/Russia?
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It appears the Pro Russian people of Ukraine are gaining a lot of ground....
I saw/read that 1000's stormed the jail in Odessa and got the other pro russian's released....
The new york times(credible?) is reporting that the Pro Russian's are indeed Ukrainians not russians like some people keep repeating here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/europe/behind-the-masks-in-ukraine-many-faces-of-rebellion.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/europe/behind-the-masks-in-ukraine-many-faces-of-rebellion.html?_r=0)
in addition to this...the LA TIMES *credible?* has reported that the pro russians now control just about all of Donetsk.
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-wn-ukraine-separatists-donetsk-20140504,0,7658585.story#axzz30nxGoeem (http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-wn-ukraine-separatists-donetsk-20140504,0,7658585.story#axzz30nxGoeem)
it seems to me that there are an awful lot of angry Ukrainians that are rebelling against what they probably feel is an illegal govt. Heck even the local citizenry greeted the tanks with anger as they supported the separatists. That is unless Russia has literally sent 10's of 1000's into Ukraine to pretend to be Ukrainians..btw where did all those Ukrainian tanks and troops go...a few days ago the leadership said they were going to keep fighting...did the troops desert again? . Perhaps people think that the LA TIMES and NY Times are both lying...and covering for Russia.
The two sides need to get the table quick and create the federation or something like that, or they can just fight it out for years....and we can stay the Christ out of it!!
Fathertime!
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haha Well, I have been trying to learn Spanish so maybe that part of my brain has been severely damaged.
Anyway, I was talking about what started all of this nonsense. Not so much about Odessa. When talking about violence, no one side has a monopoly on violent activities.
Didn't Kiev protesters take over government buildings? Are you saying the West wasn't involved in the uprising that resulted in a new government? If I voted for the current government I would be seriously pissed off at that point and I don't doubt many Ukrainians were as well judging from what has happened since.
This is the stuff I have been talking about. The idea that people can do this and get away with it will give others the reasoning to do the same in other cities.
Ron Paul even acknowledged the west involvement.
http://rt.com/usa/156512-ron-paul-ukraine-war/ (http://rt.com/usa/156512-ron-paul-ukraine-war/)
What started the violence is Putin. One doesn't need to look any farther than him. His reason for doing so is anyone's guess. He started it and he can still stop it if he so chooses. To date, he hasn't. Connect the dots that may or may not exist to Maiden if you wish or even farther back to who supported and financed the events of Maiden. Illegal government or not in Ukraine, what caused it or not doesn't give Putin the right to invade, threaten, foment and instill the fear and violence. You fail to realize what Putin actually is. He doesn't need rhyme or reason of the West to justify his actions.
Where the West failed Ukraine the most IMHO was after the Orange Revolution. It was then a Western style democracy could have taken hold, instead it was hands off and the corrupt Russian style government continued the status quo. I am a fan of Ron Paul, I am an isolationist politically. I agree with him more than not however, some country or entity will meddle where meddling can be done. Regardless of who was financing Maiden, it was Ukrainians that threw out a corrupt leader. That was democracy at work, like it, agree with it or not.
I think you got things backward. Just because some of us are saying the US and EU were to blame doesn't mean we think Russia isn't to blame. Ukraine became a battle ground just like we have seen in the past. I posted a link to an article discussing how Carter started funding an anti-government group in Afghanistan that lured the Soviet Union into their own "Vietnam". Carter previously stated he funded the group because of Soviet involvement but later the truth came out that he started funding 6 months prior to Soviet involvement. This is the back handed bullshit I can't stand.
I see the same thing happening here. It is hardly self defecating to see these actions and say it isn't right.
I have already stated many times that I don't agree with what Russia is doing. The west poked a bear and now Ukraine has to deal with it. Hardly fair, if the US and EU is going to get involved, they should take it all the way by going to war.
Otherwise we should stay completely out.
I don't think Putin wants to decimate Ukraine . I do think he wants to show the west he can't be pushed around and will tear apart Ukraine in order to do it. Is Russia the bully or is the US the bully? To be honest, for me, it's hard to say.
My line of thinking, Putin is drawing a line in the sand here.
Carter's Afghanistan, Iraq, the Cuban missle crisis, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Zaire or any other conflict you can cite does not apply. This is Ukraine and this is here and now. Putin has been doing the same backhanded shit that pisses you off in Ukraine since his first term as President. Were you complaining about it then? I don't like it anymore than you do but our pissing and moaning about it won't impede the powers that be from doing it. I think you guys looking to accuse the West of causing the current crisis aren't looking close enough. Look who is amassing troops, arming soldiers without insignias and more importantly, who's shooting bullets. That is who is causing the problems.
It may look like we are taking sides but most of the people here agree that Russia isn't doing he right thing but a few of us believe that the US and EU screwed Ukraine royally. That is the disagreements you are seeing and the minute we say "Wait a minute", we are called Putinists.
But here we are arguing about who has it worst, who is more violent and who started it all. Odessa was my home for over a year, most of the people that I have met and spent time would say they are Russian. It doesn't mean they want Russia to rule over them but it does mean they have strong ties to Russia. Reading some of the posts here you would think all Ukrainians are rejoiced over the new government and any hatred is merely Russian antagonist. Reality is, when the new government was put into place, it took the voting voice away from a lot of people and I would bet many are pissed off and rightly so.
Ukraine has been royally screwed for the last 3-400 years. The Putin screwing of Ukraine didn't just start a few months ago. It has been happening for many years. IMHO, he is seeing his ability to continue that screwing slipping away. This isn't a line in the sand, this is a "land grab because I can" move. Russia isn't a super power. They have Nukes but that is the limit of it. Militarily or economically I don't think Russia ranks in the top 10. Putin's actions are destructive. He's playing chess and winning but that doesn't mean he will win the match. If at any point the West deems Ukraine as worth going to bat for, a smart Putin would give it up and go home. I fear this isn't a smart Putin. The last thing we need is a war in Europe with both sides nuke ready.
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This post is a load of hoooey or defecation! You chastise LFU for what you say is, sucking on Putin propaganda. Why? Because he believes the USA is helped create this mess. You DON"T see him repeating every other Russian theory out there like it is ALL true. There is quite a bit of evidence that we have helped create what is going on behind the scenes. Your evidence that we were not involved is: No Americans were burned in the govt. building or occupying Russian tanks...that is weak and not evidence at all. If you feel LFU or others shouldn't state their case, then provide the overwhelming evidence that we are just innocent bystanders. There is plenty of signs that we are involved too deeply. I wish we were on the sidelines, but it seem pretty clear that we weren't.
You have provided an alternate theory which is that Putin wants to decimate Ukraine. You have stated this before. That is a theory unless you can prove it, time will tell if it comes to fruition, but for the moment, I see tampering from both 'superpowers' and I live in one of the countries and want us to get the hell outta the business of other countries like Ukraine.
Fathertime!
The old saying "It's better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" comes to mind :D
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The old saying "It's better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" comes to mind :D
That is nice that it came to mind…unfortunately you failed to exercise it….
…veiled name calling…a definite sign you lost the disagreement yet again. ;D
[/size]Fathertime! [size=78%]
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Amusing, isn't it? You have the full audio of the US's direct involvement in choosing who gets to run an illegitimate government, yet folks won't even acknowledge it like it never happened. LOL. Oh and btw, FWIW, I agree with VNuland that Klitchko was not the right one to 'lead'.
I suppose it undermines all the other dramatics. So they'll just get to it later on. Minor detail...
What's happening in Ukraine is a carbon copy of what happened in Kosovo, Serbia, Albania, Croatia, and Bosnia in the '90s. You headline the atrocities done by one side of the conflict and you earn a pass to intervene.
The US/EU have Putin exactly where they want him. The recent escalation in Odessa is by design to provoke a Russian military strike. It'll likely happen a few more times. If Putin advances into Ukraine, then he's demonize as a marauder attacking a helpless country like Ukraine, the new 'Butcher of the Black Sea' - and could very well trigger regional war, in the least - multi-nation at worst. It isn't difficult to understand that Russia simply can't afford a prolonged war.
If Putin doesn't act despite the escalation of violence against ethnic-Russians in Ukraine, then he/Russia is automatically labeled 'weak', which is completely counter to what Putin aspired for Russia and thereby discredited.
So he's screwed right now either way. So one only need to ask a simple question into all these, how exactly do any of this crisis benefit Putin/Russia?
Yep and good point. Putin is screwed on this. He really has no reason to back down. He can take Ukraine anytime he wants and there is nothing stopping him. It makes you wonder why he hasn't so far, eh?
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What started the violence is Putin. One doesn't need to look any farther than him. His reason for doing so is anyone's guess. He started it and he can still stop it if he so chooses. To date, he hasn't. Connect the dots that may or may not exist to Maiden if you wish or even farther back to who supported and financed the events of Maiden. Illegal government or not in Ukraine, what caused it or not doesn't give Putin the right to invade, threaten, foment and instill the fear and violence. You fail to realize what Putin actually is. He doesn't need rhyme or reason of the West to justify his actions.
Violence tends to happen when trying to overthrow a government. Putin or not. Putting your head in the sand as to the involvement from the EU/US doesn't change the fact they fostered an environment that was going to lead to violence.
They have as much blood on their hands as Putin.
Where the West failed Ukraine the most IMHO was after the Orange Revolution. It was then a Western style democracy could have taken hold, instead it was hands off and the corrupt Russian style government continued the status quo. I am a fan of Ron Paul, I am an isolationist politically. I agree with him more than not however, some country or entity will meddle where meddling can be done. Regardless of who was financing Maiden, it was Ukrainians that threw out a corrupt leader. That was democracy at work, like it, agree with it or not.
The president was legally elected and those elections where monitored by outside resources. What I am saying is you wouldn't see that type of thing happening in any western democracy yet you think it is "ok" for Ukraine.
I most definitely wouldn't call overthrowing a government the democratic way. I would call it a coup.
Carter's Afghanistan, Iraq, the Cuban missle crisis, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Zaire or any other conflict you can cite does not apply. This is Ukraine and this is here and now.
It's called modus operandi and it can help us figure out what is propaganda and what is not. If the US has a history of doing these types of actions, and there is evidence of them doing the same thing, I am not going to believe they didn't do it no matter how many time you and/or others try to say otherwise.
Putin has been doing the same backhanded shit that pisses you off in Ukraine since his first term as President. Were you complaining about it then? I don't like it anymore than you do but our pissing and moaning about it won't impede the powers that be from doing it. I think you guys looking to accuse the West of causing the current crisis aren't looking close enough. Look who is amassing troops, arming soldiers without insignias and more importantly, who's shooting bullets. That is who is causing the problems.
The last election had monitors. We talked about this many times. Just because you don't think he should have been elected doesn't means it was a scam. Ukrainians aren't dumb. They know all politicians are corrupt. I think it is pretty easy to see why they voted for Yanukovych and not another Orange Revolution bullshitter.
Again, not all protesters of the new government are Russian soldiers. They are Ukrainians that got told they have to accept a new government and phuck off if you don't like it.
I posted a link to a video of a group of Ukrainians roughing up a television producer and making him quit. After that, he popped up in a photograph of parliament fighting between them.
There are also pictures of McCain with a neo nazis who is part of the new government. You really think it is just the Pro Russian group that is causing the problems.
Again, with the head in the sand. ;D
Ukraine has been royally screwed for the last 3-400 years. The Putin screwing of Ukraine didn't just start a few months ago. It has been happening for many years. IMHO, he is seeing his ability to continue that screwing slipping away. This isn't a line in the sand, this is a "land grab because I can" move. Russia isn't a super power. They have Nukes but that is the limit of it. Militarily or economically I don't think Russia ranks in the top 10. Putin's actions are destructive. He's playing chess and winning but that doesn't mean he will win the match. If at any point the West deems Ukraine as worth going to bat for, a smart Putin would give it up and go home. I fear this isn't a smart Putin. The last thing we need is a war in Europe with both sides nuke ready.
As GQ pointed out, Putin wasn't smart. He has now put himself into a corner and I don't see many options for him to get out. Who knows what will happen and I fear not allowing him to come out looking good will make things quite bad.
The best thing that could happen is figuring out a way for him to save face and allow Ukraine to get back on their feet. I don't see a way to do that.
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What started the violence is Putin. One doesn't need to look any farther than him. His reason for doing so is anyone's guess. He started it and he can still stop it if he so chooses. To date, he hasn't. Connect the dots that may or may not exist to Maiden if you wish or even farther back to who supported and financed the events of Maiden. Illegal government or not in Ukraine, what caused it or not doesn't give Putin the right to invade, threaten, foment and instill the fear and violence. You fail to realize what Putin actually is. He doesn't need rhyme or reason of the West to justify his actions.
What a silly case of circular logic and faulty reasoning. So your big point is that the US doesn't have troops on the ground creating violence? It is ok for a highly questionable govt. to wrest control, that Russia's international rival helped fund/plan/install.....but it is not ok for Russia to do what it can to influence things....Sounds like a double standard to me....the USA's hands don't look clean to me, and this wasn't the right part of the world to do this sort of thing. We should have stayed away and not help set the scene for the violence now occurring, while raising our hands in the air saying 'what did we do?'
All that said, I don't believe there are any innocent parties here, but I'm not going to try to hold other govts. to account when ours is just as guilty...Russia has a lot better reason to intervene in this part of the world then we do...They have a lot of crucial interests in the area including not wanting to be surrounded by more unfriendly military bases someday down the road...I feel we are just there to try to poke Russia in the eye with a stick...and put Russia in a further comprised position where they are less able to exert influence in their international interests. I doubt they would permit that to happen.
Fathertime!
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As GQ pointed out, Putin wasn't smart. He has now put himself into a corner and I don't see many options for him to get out. Who knows what will happen and I fear not allowing him to come out looking good will make things quite bad.
The best thing that could happen is figuring out a way for him to save face and allow Ukraine to get back on their feet. I don't see a way to do that.
Hey LFU,
I think there are ways for everybody to get something...it may not go down that way...but the pie is big enough....Thus far I believe Russia has asked for Ukraine to vote on a Federation where Ukraine would still be one country, with different regions having more self determination. I think that could work, if that is truly what the people of parts E. Ukraine want.
After Ukraine has it's election, maybe that guy who is elected can sit down, hammer out a framework, and work out a way to make a relatively fair vote happen in these regions. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me as it would be the people's choice. At that point if Russia decided they didn't like the result they would clearly be invading an area that didn't want them and many additional people would condemn and back tough sanctions on them (and deservedly so)...I would think it is more likely the people would vote for more self-determination. Anyway that is just one possible solution...I'm sure there are others...
Fathertime!
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Hey LFU,
I think there are ways for everybody to get something...it may not go down that way...but the pie is big enough....Thus far I believe Russia has asked for Ukraine to vote on a Federation where Ukraine would still be one country, with different regions having more self determination. I think that could work, if that is truly what the people of parts E. Ukraine want.
After Ukraine has it's election, maybe that guy who is elected can sit down, hammer out a framework, and work out a way to make a relatively fair vote happen in these regions. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me as it would be the people's choice. At that point if Russia decided they didn't like the result they would clearly be invading an area that didn't want them and many additional people would condemn and back tough sanctions on them (and deservedly so)...I would think it is more likely the people would vote for more self-determination. Anyway that is just one possible solution...I'm sure there are others...
Fathertime!
That is one of their major problems FT. Election results don't seem to matter. People will cry fraud if they don't agree with the result even if they are monitored. Overthrowing elected officials when you don't like their decisions doesn't cry stability.
You have to respect the process for it to work.
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Interesting article on the Odessa tragedy. It was pieced together, in Russia, from youtube videos so who knows if it is accurate.
http://rt.com/news/156744-video-footage-odessa-fire/ (http://rt.com/news/156744-video-footage-odessa-fire/)
Then the visibly smaller group of alleged anti-Kiev activists started to attack the march, apparently provoking the demonstrators. Footage then shows a smaller group men wearing red bands luring the pro-Kiev crowd into a different direction.
At some point, the police line opened up to let the men wearing red bands through and closed back up again. A video then shows a man standing behind the police lines shooting at the pro-Kiev crowd.
(http://rt.com/files/news/26/44/80/00/cca0fa76668c35c7ec4f0fe9ef1442c4.i600x405x475.jpeg)
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The United States should not and cannot engage in combat operations in Ukraine. Now, Ukraine may invite us (it probably already has in so many words) - but we may not be able to help them reach their goals which is independence, freedom & prosperity. We should support them. We should not (as Benghazi Vicky Nuland and Geoff Butterfingers Pyatt have appeared to have done) pick their leaders for them. Ukraine is not Palestine. They are not an unreliable cobelligerent but have demonstrated moral and physical courage in the face of a great menace.
Combat operations requires some defense of a national interest. We do have national interests in Ukraine. Those interests include honoring the Budapest Memorandum. But we have abdicated that responsibility - a shame we will live with for the rest of our lives. Absent the honor and the principle of nonproliferation, we would be wise to avoid, in the words of Neville Chamberlain on Czechslovakia:
a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war.
- Broadcast (27 September 1938), quoted in "Prime Minister on the Issues", The Times (28 September 1938
Secondly, we do not have a competent Commander in Chief. We do not have a Commander or a Chief. We do not have a leader. We have a fraud whose true character and nature has yet to reveal itself. We do know that this Changeling did try to lead us into a war we all opposed. Fathertime, FauxPas, even GQBlues and me agreed that war in Syria was not just wrong it was evil. Mendeleyev, who no longer posts on this forum, defended Putin's actions justifying himself in the language of the Third Rome and the Nationalism that appeals to so many Russians here and elsewhere. Though I WRONGLY opposed him, Mendeleyev rightly argued that the Obama Administration through its actors in the al Qaeda Rebel militias were responsible for the sarin gas bombings. Yes, they bombed their own people. Mendeleyev said and I didn't believe him but what he said was true.
Obama, the war in Ukraine, is not about Ukraine. The Putinists are right. The CIA is meddling in Ukraine. But they overestimate the scale and the wisdom. We like any other nation reserve the right meddle anywhere we have interests of the affairs of others smaller and weaker than us. It is the law of nations. It has its own morality. Sometimes we have done well other instances not at all much. But we are no different than other peoples. Where we are different is who we are, the kind of values we live by and espouse. The kind of people we are. That Americanism, the combination of Christianity and Democracy, even if it is balderdash appeals to people all over the world as the way it should be. And the way it should be is that we should have advised them to appoint an honest man - Klitchko is an honest man who made is his own money on his own merits and not appointed Yatseniuk, Timashenko or Poroshenko who are all corruptible. Also a real American would not have put its weight in a National Socialist (left wing) muscle but would have bolstered legitimate institutional authorities like the police and military. A real American would have arranged for a power sharing agreement on national unity because of a national crisis which would have included members of the party of Regions which had defectors early on that would have accepted Keivan Leadership.
So America is behind this coup. So why are they being so stingy? Why are they being so obtuse? Yatseniuk asked for guns, he got MREs. The Euromaidan heroes died because they thought the US Sixth fleet would support them. Its still in the Aegean. The Ukrainian people thought they would be apart of Europe, but the EU is skittery and NATO does not accept collect calls. 45 million people are saying rightly 'WTF?'
An explanation that makes any sense is that this - all of this - as ugly as this is - is not about Ukraine, but about Syria. if you go back to Syria, you go back to Benghazi. Before there was Benghazi, there was Extortion 17. Extortion 17 was about avenging UBL's murder which corrupted the meaning of the Arab Spring and Obama's Cairo Speech. Obama doesn't like Putin, but he does not want a blood war with Putin. His interests are in the Middle East. Re-read GQBlues posts about parallels to the Balkans. Obama can't say what he is really doing which is laying the ground work for a Muslim caliphate. And Erdogan is read on. Ukraine is not about Ukraine, its about Syria. But guess who controls Syria (and Iran)? This isn't your grandfather's Cold War.
All the Russians talk about this war as a WWII redux, which in a sense it is. If you follow the logic of subversion. Subversion comes in 3 stages:
1) demoralization
2) crisis
3) normalization
Most of the Middle East and Ukraine is demoralized. So getting people in riot mode is not that had. Forcing a crisis (civil war or invasion) follows. Normalization is killing off all those allies you had in fighting the Civil War or invasion so you have no political competition. Octavius did it when he killed off Antony. The Muslim Brotherhood tried to do that in killing off the Egyptian democrats. The same will happen in Ukraine no matter who wins for the Nazis and the Commies were lefties. They don't believe in power sharing.
Obama is not a real American. He campaigned twice on fundamental transformation of America. We have to stop him. Like I said, we cannot stop others from raping our neighbors if we do not stop the rapist (Obama) in our own home. That may take awhile and by that time Ukraine maybe gobbled up.
If we, the interventionists want intervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long as he holds the auspices of legitimate power will abuse that power to change the subject - even taking us to the brink of thermonuclear war. Clinton did it. Obama is more of a bastard than Slick Willie was or ever be. If you, the noninterventionists want nonintervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long is weak, he cannot lead his country to war.
Where does that leave Ukraine? Ukraine and Russia are linked. Their origin stories are the same. The stories of all Slavs are linked. But Slavs of every stripe have to ask themselves who is the more ascendant power Poland or Russia because they both cannot lead the Slavic identity. If you look at the last 100 years and see what Russia has done with leadership, you might want to re-assess. I say that as a (not so good) Russian speaker.
Thoughts? Insults?
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That is nice that it came to mind…unfortunately you failed to exercise it….
…veiled name calling…a definite sign you lost the disagreement yet again. ;D
[/size]Fathertime! [size=78%]
:ROFL:
Whatever it takes for you FT is fine with me. You and I have no disagreement. I stopped any exchange with you many pages ago after it became evident you were unable to formulate any reasoned debate. I alerted you to that little factoid at the time. My position has not changed and I see yours hasn't either.
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The United States should not and cannot engage in combat operations in Ukraine. Now, Ukraine may invite us (it probably already has in so many words) - but we may not be able to help them reach their goals which is independence, freedom & prosperity. We should support them. We should not (as Benghazi Vicky Nuland and Geoff Butterfingers Pyatt have appeared to have done) pick their leaders for them. Ukraine is not Palestine. They are not an unreliable cobelligerent but have demonstrated moral and physical courage in the face of a great menace.
Combat operations requires some defense of a national interest. We do have national interests in Ukraine. Those interests include honoring the Budapest Memorandum. But we have abdicated that responsibility - a shame we will live with for the rest of our lives. Absent the honor and the principle of nonproliferation, we would be wise to avoid, in the words of Neville Chamberlain on Czechslovakia:
Secondly, we do not have a competent Commander in Chief. We do not have a Commander or a Chief. We do not have a leader. We have a fraud whose true character and nature has yet to reveal itself. We do know that this Changeling did try to lead us into a war we all opposed. Fathertime, FauxPas, even GQBlues and me agreed that war in Syria was not just wrong it was evil. Mendeleyev, who no longer posts on this forum, defended Putin's actions justifying himself in the language of the Third Rome and the Nationalism that appeals to so many Russians here and elsewhere. Though I WRONGLY opposed him, Mendeleyev rightly argued that the Obama Administration through its actors in the al Qaeda Rebel militias were responsible for the sarin gas bombings. Yes, they bombed their own people. Mendeleyev said and I didn't believe him but what he said was true.
Obama, the war in Ukraine, is not about Ukraine. The Putinists are right. The CIA is meddling in Ukraine. But they overestimate the scale and the wisdom. We like any other nation reserve the right meddle anywhere we have interests of the affairs of others smaller and weaker than us. It is the law of nations. It has its own morality. Sometimes we have done well other instances not at all much. But we are no different than other peoples. Where we are different is who we are, the kind of values we live by and espouse. The kind of people we are. That Americanism, the combination of Christianity and Democracy, even if it is balderdash appeals to people all over the world as the way it should be. And the way it should be is that we should have advised them to appoint an honest man - Klitchko is an honest man who made is his own money on his own merits and not appointed Yatseniuk, Timashenko or Poroshenko who are all corruptible. Also a real American would not have put its weight in a National Socialist (left wing) muscle but would have bolstered legitimate institutional authorities like the police and military. A real American would have arranged for a power sharing agreement on national unity because of a national crisis which would have included members of the party of Regions which had defectors early on that would have accepted Keivan Leadership.
So America is behind this coup. So why are they being so stingy? Why are they being so obtuse? Yatseniuk asked for guns, he got MREs. The Euromaidan heroes died because they thought the US Sixth fleet would support them. Its still in the Aegean. The Ukrainian people thought they would be apart of Europe, but the EU is skittery and NATO does not accept collect calls. 45 million people are saying rightly 'WTF?'
An explanation that makes any sense is that this - all of this - as ugly as this is - is not about Ukraine, but about Syria. if you go back to Syria, you go back to Benghazi. Before there was Benghazi, there was Extortion 17. Extortion 17 was about avenging UBL's murder which corrupted the meaning of the Arab Spring and Obama's Cairo Speech. Obama doesn't like Putin, but he does not want a blood war with Putin. His interests are in the Middle East. Re-read GQBlues posts about parallels to the Balkans. Obama can't say what he is really doing which is laying the ground work for a Muslim caliphate. And Erdogan is read on. Ukraine is not about Ukraine, its about Syria. But guess who controls Syria (and Iran)? This isn't your grandfather's Cold War.
All the Russians talk about this war as a WWII redux, which in a sense it is. If you follow the logic of subversion. Subversion comes in 3 stages:
1) demoralization
2) crisis
3) normalization
Most of the Middle East and Ukraine is demoralized. So getting people in riot mode is not that had. Forcing a crisis (civil war or invasion) follows. Normalization is killing off all those allies you had in fighting the Civil War or invasion so you have no political competition. Octavius did it when he killed off Antony. The Muslim Brotherhood tried to do that in killing off the Egyptian democrats. The same will happen in Ukraine no matter who wins for the Nazis and the Commies were lefties. They don't believe in power sharing.
Obama is not a real American. He campaigned twice on fundamental transformation of America. We have to stop him. Like I said, we cannot stop others from raping our neighbors if we do not stop the rapist (Obama) in our own home. That may take awhile and by that time Ukraine maybe gobbled up.
If we, the interventionists want intervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long as he holds the auspices of legitimate power will abuse that power to change the subject - even taking us to the brink of thermonuclear war. Clinton did it. Obama is more of a bastard than Slick Willie was or ever be. If you, the noninterventionists want nonintervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long is weak, he cannot lead his country to war.
Where does that leave Ukraine? Ukraine and Russia are linked. Their origin stories are the same. The stories of all Slavs are linked. But Slavs of every stripe have to ask themselves who is the more ascendant power Poland or Russia because they both cannot lead the Slavic identity. If you look at the last 100 years and see what Russia has done with leadership, you might want to re-assess. I say that as a (not so good) Russian speaker.
Thoughts? Insults?
I am shocked that I agree with every word above.
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:ROFL:
Whatever it takes for you FT is fine with me. You and I have no disagreement. I stopped any exchange with you many pages ago after it became evident you were unable to formulate any reasoned debate. I alerted you to that little factoid at the time. My position has not changed and I see yours hasn't either.
You when you are prepared to disagree like an adult I will be ready to discuss…meanwhile I will permit you to pout in the corner because viewpoints and reasoning differ from yours. :D
Fathertime!
-
The United States should not and cannot engage in combat operations in Ukraine. Now, Ukraine may invite us (it probably already has in so many words) - but we may not be able to help them reach their goals which is independence, freedom & prosperity. We should support them. We should not (as Benghazi Vicky Nuland and Geoff Butterfingers Pyatt have appeared to have done) pick their leaders for them. Ukraine is not Palestine. They are not an unreliable cobelligerent but have demonstrated moral and physical courage in the face of a great menace.
Combat operations requires some defense of a national interest. We do have national interests in Ukraine. Those interests include honoring the Budapest Memorandum. But we have abdicated that responsibility - a shame we will live with for the rest of our lives. Absent the honor and the principle of nonproliferation, we would be wise to avoid, in the words of Neville Chamberlain on Czechslovakia:
Secondly, we do not have a competent Commander in Chief. We do not have a Commander or a Chief. We do not have a leader. We have a fraud whose true character and nature has yet to reveal itself. We do know that this Changeling did try to lead us into a war we all opposed. Fathertime, FauxPas, even GQBlues and me agreed that war in Syria was not just wrong it was evil. Mendeleyev, who no longer posts on this forum, defended Putin's actions justifying himself in the language of the Third Rome and the Nationalism that appeals to so many Russians here and elsewhere. Though I WRONGLY opposed him, Mendeleyev rightly argued that the Obama Administration through its actors in the al Qaeda Rebel militias were responsible for the sarin gas bombings. Yes, they bombed their own people. Mendeleyev said and I didn't believe him but what he said was true.
Obama, the war in Ukraine, is not about Ukraine. The Putinists are right. The CIA is meddling in Ukraine. But they overestimate the scale and the wisdom. We like any other nation reserve the right meddle anywhere we have interests of the affairs of others smaller and weaker than us. It is the law of nations. It has its own morality. Sometimes we have done well other instances not at all much. But we are no different than other peoples. Where we are different is who we are, the kind of values we live by and espouse. The kind of people we are. That Americanism, the combination of Christianity and Democracy, even if it is balderdash appeals to people all over the world as the way it should be. And the way it should be is that we should have advised them to appoint an honest man - Klitchko is an honest man who made is his own money on his own merits and not appointed Yatseniuk, Timashenko or Poroshenko who are all corruptible. Also a real American would not have put its weight in a National Socialist (left wing) muscle but would have bolstered legitimate institutional authorities like the police and military. A real American would have arranged for a power sharing agreement on national unity because of a national crisis which would have included members of the party of Regions which had defectors early on that would have accepted Keivan Leadership.
So America is behind this coup. So why are they being so stingy? Why are they being so obtuse? Yatseniuk asked for guns, he got MREs. The Euromaidan heroes died because they thought the US Sixth fleet would support them. Its still in the Aegean. The Ukrainian people thought they would be apart of Europe, but the EU is skittery and NATO does not accept collect calls. 45 million people are saying rightly 'WTF?'
An explanation that makes any sense is that this - all of this - as ugly as this is - is not about Ukraine, but about Syria. if you go back to Syria, you go back to Benghazi. Before there was Benghazi, there was Extortion 17. Extortion 17 was about avenging UBL's murder which corrupted the meaning of the Arab Spring and Obama's Cairo Speech. Obama doesn't like Putin, but he does not want a blood war with Putin. His interests are in the Middle East. Re-read GQBlues posts about parallels to the Balkans. Obama can't say what he is really doing which is laying the ground work for a Muslim caliphate. And Erdogan is read on. Ukraine is not about Ukraine, its about Syria. But guess who controls Syria (and Iran)? This isn't your grandfather's Cold War.
All the Russians talk about this war as a WWII redux, which in a sense it is. If you follow the logic of subversion. Subversion comes in 3 stages:
1) demoralization
2) crisis
3) normalization
Most of the Middle East and Ukraine is demoralized. So getting people in riot mode is not that had. Forcing a crisis (civil war or invasion) follows. Normalization is killing off all those allies you had in fighting the Civil War or invasion so you have no political competition. Octavius did it when he killed off Antony. The Muslim Brotherhood tried to do that in killing off the Egyptian democrats. The same will happen in Ukraine no matter who wins for the Nazis and the Commies were lefties. They don't believe in power sharing.
Obama is not a real American. He campaigned twice on fundamental transformation of America. We have to stop him. Like I said, we cannot stop others from raping our neighbors if we do not stop the rapist (Obama) in our own home. That may take awhile and by that time Ukraine maybe gobbled up.
If we, the interventionists want intervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long as he holds the auspices of legitimate power will abuse that power to change the subject - even taking us to the brink of thermonuclear war. Clinton did it. Obama is more of a bastard than Slick Willie was or ever be. If you, the noninterventionists want nonintervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long is weak, he cannot lead his country to war.
Where does that leave Ukraine? Ukraine and Russia are linked. Their origin stories are the same. The stories of all Slavs are linked. But Slavs of every stripe have to ask themselves who is the more ascendant power Poland or Russia because they both cannot lead the Slavic identity. If you look at the last 100 years and see what Russia has done with leadership, you might want to re-assess. I say that as a (not so good) Russian speaker.
Thoughts? Insults?
Well LT if we agree on a few things that is fine...the fact that you posted without misstating other people's positions or name-called is a step in the right direction, from my point of view.
Fathertime!
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Violence tends to happen when trying to overthrow a government. Putin or not. Putting your head in the sand as to the involvement from the EU/US doesn't change the fact they fostered an environment that was going to lead to violence.
They have as much blood on their hands as Putin.
My head isn't in the sand here guy. I have no doubt Western entities are complicit in the destabilization of Ukraine. I also have little to no doubt of the Obama's admin complicity, too. The reasons why are pure conjecture and immaterial. Although LT's description is probably more truth than fiction. However, the blood being spilled is not by the hand of the West, it is by Putin. Stop excusing his actions. What has happened in Ukraine has been happening throughout the world for the last 1000 years. Russia has and continues to do the very same crimes you accuse the West of. It's not "okay" for Russia to carry out these crimes because the West allegedly, in your mind, started it.
The president was legally elected and those elections where monitored by outside resources. What I am saying is you wouldn't see that type of thing happening in any western democracy yet you think it is "ok" for Ukraine.
I most definitely wouldn't call overthrowing a government the democratic way. I would call it a coup.
He was elected. Fairly or not, who is to say but, that's not the point. He sold Ukraine up the river to Moscow. He was a crook, a thief and Putin's puppet, his own party wanted him out of office. The Ukrainian people/government took measures to end it. It was completed by a vote. It should also be noted it was while he was on the lamb and hiding with his master. You and numerous others here blame the West for that. You blame the West for assisting that action. Would you feel better if it wasn't the West but rather China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea?
It's called modus operandi and it can help us figure out what is propaganda and what is not. If the US has a history of doing these types of actions, and there is evidence of them doing the same thing, I am not going to believe they didn't do it no matter how many time you and/or others try to say otherwise.
The last election had monitors. We talked about this many times. Just because you don't think he should have been elected doesn't means it was a scam. Ukrainians aren't dumb. They know all politicians are corrupt. I think it is pretty easy to see why they voted for Yanukovych and not another Orange Revolution bullshitter.
I didn't say they didn't do it. I'm not defending the actions of the Obama admin or their complicity in the Ukrainian situation. Let's keep that clear. If the West didn't do it, another country or countries would have. It is/was an opportunity that someone would have exploited/ taken advantage of. I don't like it, certainly don't agree with it or think it just but, it is, what it is. That is the reality. This reality was possible because of Yankovict, his thievery and serving Putin rather than Ukraine.
Again, not all protesters of the new government are Russian soldiers. They are Ukrainians that got told they have to accept a new government and phuck off if you don't like it.
I posted a link to a video of a group of Ukrainians roughing up a television producer and making him quit. After that, he popped up in a photograph of parliament fighting between them.
There are also pictures of McCain with a neo nazis who is part of the new government. You really think it is just the Pro Russian group that is causing the problems.
There are many fingerprints all over this situation but, the current bloodshed is clearly on Putin's hands IMHO. He is the catalyst of the fighting. If Putin were correct in his declarations, he would allow Ukrainians to have an unfettered election unimpeded with terror or disruption. The fact that he isn't should be an indicator to you.
As GQ pointed out, Putin wasn't smart. He has now put himself into a corner and I don't see many options for him to get out. Who knows what will happen and I fear not allowing him to come out looking good will make things quite bad.
The best thing that could happen is figuring out a way for him to save face and allow Ukraine to get back on their feet. I don't see a way to do that.
You, GQ nor I have any idea what Putin's plan is. I don't think him smart either. The damage he has inflicted thus far will be far reaching into the future of Russia as well as Ukraine. Russia's position on the world stage is diminishing daily. It won't bother Putin or his cronies personally as he's already moved his stolen billions all over the world. It will affect your average Russian. This includes my wife's family and our Russian family and friends in Russia. This is where my personal concern is mainly focused. I don't personally have a dog in the fight in Ukraine but, I am seeing the world being reshaped as a result and I do not like it one bit. There is a method to my madness. The best course of action for Putin right now, today is to pack up and go home and be happy with the change of Crimea. Anything beyond that is going to come at a very expensive price IMHO
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My head isn't in the sand here guy. I have no doubt Western entities are complicit in the destabilization of Ukraine. I also have little to no doubt of the Obama's admin complicity, too. The reasons why are pure conjecture and immaterial. Although LT's description is probably more truth than fiction. However, the blood being spilled is not by the hand of the West, it is by Putin. Stop excusing his actions. What has happened in Ukraine has been happening throughout the world for the last 1000 years. Russia has and continues to do the very same crimes you accuse the West of. It's not "okay" for Russia to carry out these crimes because the West allegedly, in your mind, started it.
He was elected. Fairly or not, who is to say but, that's not the point. He sold Ukraine up the river to Moscow. He was a crook, a thief and Putin's puppet, his own party wanted him out of office. The Ukrainian people/government took measures to end it. It was completed by a vote. It should also be noted it was while he was on the lamb and hiding with his master. You and numerous others here blame the West for that. You blame the West for assisting that action. Would you feel better if it wasn't the West but rather China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea?
I didn't say they didn't do it. I'm not defending the actions of the Obama admin or their complicity in the Ukrainian situation. Let's keep that clear. If the West didn't do it, another country or countries would have. It is/was an opportunity that someone would have exploited/ taken advantage of. I don't like it, certainly don't agree with it or think it just but, it is, what it is. That is the reality. This reality was possible because of Yankovict, his thievery and serving Putin rather than Ukraine.
There are many fingerprints all over this situation but, the current bloodshed is clearly on Putin's hands IMHO. He is the catalyst of the fighting. If Putin were correct in his declarations, he would allow Ukrainians to have an unfettered election unimpeded with terror or disruption. The fact that he isn't should be an indicator to you.
You, GQ nor I have any idea what Putin's plan is. I don't think him smart either. The damage he has inflicted thus far will be far reaching into the future of Russia as well as Ukraine. Russia's position on the world stage is diminishing daily. It won't bother Putin or his cronies personally as he's already moved his stolen billions all over the world. It will affect your average Russian. This includes my wife's family and our Russian family and friends in Russia. This is where my personal concern is mainly focused. I don't personally have a dog in the fight in Ukraine but, I am seeing the world being reshaped as a result and I do not like it one bit. There is a method to my madness. The best course of action for Putin right now, today is to pack up and go home and be happy with the change of Crimea. Anything beyond that is going to come at a very expensive price IMHO
I'm not quite understanding your logic here FP. The majority of ukraine population duly elected a president observed by the international organization and openly deemed fair yet you can't accept it because of yanu's alliance to Moscow? He was elected president by majority Ukrainians. It doesn't matter if you believe he's a crook. Obama is a bigger crook but that doesn't negate his presidency now does it?
Should we keep on interfering in each country's electoral process every time we feel the elected leader n that country doesn't fit our vision of the world? Isn't this what you're critical of putin yourself?
Yanu's removal is illegal. The process of impeachment was not consummated due to failure in parliamentary protocol so they simply abandoned the process and overthrew him regardless. You cite right from wrong yet disregard having the US decide for Ukrainians on who gets to illegally lead them as non passé ?
You are also disregarding Estonia's PM phone call regarding the information about the sniper incident and how disturbing it is they not only have information this was planted to exact violence in Kiev and no one is bothering for any type of international investigation ?
You think all this justifiable due to your opinion of Putin?
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My head isn't in the sand here guy. I have no doubt Western entities are complicit in the destabilization of Ukraine. I also have little to no doubt of the Obama's admin complicity, too. The reasons why are pure conjecture and immaterial. Although LT's description is probably more truth than fiction. However, the blood being spilled is not by the hand of the West, it is by Putin. Stop excusing his actions.
It seems to me that you are excusing the U.S. actions by saying if it weren't us it would have been N. Korea or Saudi Arabia. I would rather focus on the country I live in, then blame 'Putin' or another foreign country. The evidence seems to point to us, so pointing our collective crooked finger elsewhere seems to be hypocritical. It wasn't China caught on tape discussing who was going to be installed as the new leader. I continue to believe if we get outta the way and permit the process to run its course the outcome will wind up being more palatable then the alternative...although it could get to the point of no return...where no outcome is at all pleasant.
Fathertime!
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I'm not quite understanding your logic here FP. The majority of ukraine population duly elected a president observed by the international organization and openly deemed fair yet you can't accept it because of yanu's alliance to Moscow? He was elected president by majority Ukrainians. It doesn't matter if you believe he's a crook. Obama is a bigger crook but that doesn't negate his presidency now does it?
Should we keep on interfering in each country's electoral process every time we feel the elected leader n that country doesn't fit our vision of the world? Isn't this what you're critical of putin yourself?
Yanu's removal is illegal. The process of impeachment was not consummated due to failure in parliamentary protocol so they simply abandoned the process and overthrew him regardless. You cite right from wrong yet disregard having the US decide for Ukrainians on who gets to illegally lead them as non passé ?
It's not that hard. It's not for "me" to accept nor any of you. Ukraine's elected officials deemed him unfit to serve and voted him out. All in Ukraine's (or rather's Russia's own) style of democracy. Yes, I'm okay with that and it has nothing to do with my opinion of Putin or Yankovict's ties to Putin. I expect I'd be okay with an impeachment vote or a vote to remove Obama from office. They have been wiping their ass with the constitution too long already. What I think of Yanukovich has no bearing on my opinion of the legality of Ukrainian law. They voted Yanu out and they have their reasons. It wasn't done at the barrel of a gun. They were fed up with the corruption. Ukraine's parliament responding to it's constituents. The idea that Ukraine has no right to remove a president who lost favor with the population to bow down to Putin's demands IMHO, is their right. The fact that this angers Putin doesn't give him rights to invade or seize Ukraine. You were earlier arguing the Ukrainian constitutional semantics. It is their constitution. They have a right to change it.
You've put much too much stock in a recorded phone call of Nuland. Do you honestly believe she can or had the ability to place who she deemed? I don't. She is but another clown of the Obama admin. Neither does Kerry, Biden or King Obama himself.
You are also disregarding Estonia's PM phone call regarding the information about the sniper incident and how disturbing it is they not only have information this was planted to exact violence in Kiev and no one is bothering for any type of international investigation ?
You think all this justifiable due to your opinion of Putin?
Hell no. My opinion of Putin has nothing to do with anything. The PMs phone call while likely valid is still nothing more than heresay. Just as Nuland's. It can be just as false and it can be true. I'm all for an investigation but any kind of investigation isn't going to happen until Putin exits the stage, taking his invasion with him. I suspect such an investigation would reveal far more about Yanu and Putin than the West's financing protests in Kiev.
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It's not that hard. It's not for "me" to accept nor any of you. Ukraine's elected officials deemed him unfit to serve and voted him out. All in Ukraine's (or rather's Russia's own) style of democracy. Yes, I'm okay with that and it has nothing to do with my opinion of Putin or Yankovict's ties to Putin. I expect I'd be okay with an impeachment vote or a vote to remove Obama from office. They have been wiping their ass with the constitution too long already. What I think of Yanukovich has no bearing on my opinion of the legality of Ukrainian law. They voted Yanu out and they have their reasons. It wasn't done at the barrel of a gun. They were fed up with the corruption. Ukraine's parliament responding to it's constituents. The idea that Ukraine has no right to remove a president who lost favor with the population to bow down to Putin's demands IMHO, is their right. The fact that this angers Putin doesn't give him rights to invade or seize Ukraine. You were earlier arguing the Ukrainian constitutional semantics. It is their constitution. They have a right to change it....
FP, they didn't vote him out. The impeachment protocol never got the full process. So they overthrew him instead. Doing things outside the bounds of your presiding constitution makes it a coup. We demonize Iranians for overthrowing the Shah. The US placed him to rule Iran. He wasn't even elected or chosen by the people. We put him there so the Brits can continue to suck it's oil. You can't have it both ways, man. Yanu in Ukraine is no different than the Shah of Iran. Wrong is wrong and shouldn't be determined on what aisle any of us is sitting on.
...You've put much too much stock in a recorded phone call of Nuland. Do you honestly believe she can or had the ability to place who she deemed? I don't. She is but another clown of the Obama admin. Neither does Kerry, Biden or King Obama himself. ...
She did exactly that, FP. She even went as far as making a point why Klitchko was not and cannot be the right choice.
...Hell no. My opinion of Putin has nothing to do with anything. The PMs phone call while likely valid is still nothing more than heresay. Just as Nuland's. It can be just as false and it can be true. I'm all for an investigation but any kind of investigation isn't going to happen until Putin exits the stage, taking his invasion with him. I suspect such an investigation would reveal far more about Yanu and Putin than the West's financing protests in Kiev...
On the one hand you subscribe to speculations and media misinformation simply because it adds fire against Putin. Then at the same time blatantly deny or disregard full audio recordings as heresay simply because it counters biased opinions.
Why hasn't the EU refute the information regarding the origin of the sniper? Why hasn't there been an investigation soon after information revealed it wasn't from Yanukovyck's corner? Look, crimes against humanity committed by Kosovars, Bosnians, etc... against the Serbs, prior to, during and after the Balkans war aren't surfacing until just recently. Almost 20 years after the war. NATO and the UN literally turned a blind eye to all these atrocities. We undermined and instigated that unrest/war just as what were doing here in Ukraine today.
I don't like Putin. I don't like him leading Russia either. But that doesn't negate one iota the US undermined this Ukrainian crisis. My dislike of Putin doesn't negate the crimes WE are committing in Ukraine through this crisis.
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My head isn't in the sand here guy. I have no doubt Western entities are complicit in the destabilization of Ukraine. I also have little to no doubt of the Obama's admin complicity, too. The reasons why are pure conjecture and immaterial. Although LT's description is probably more truth than fiction. However, the blood being spilled is not by the hand of the West, it is by Putin. Stop excusing his actions. What has happened in Ukraine has been happening throughout the world for the last 1000 years. Russia has and continues to do the very same crimes you accuse the West of. It's not "okay" for Russia to carry out these crimes because the West allegedly, in your mind, started it.
Sounds like we agree on the west having some blame in destabilizing Ukraine. It looks like we disagree on what has happened afterwards. From my understanding, you seem to be blaming Putin for all of the violence. I don't necessarily think he doesn't have his hands involved, but I also don't think he is the sole cause.
I think the destabilization is the cause which we both agree in the US/EU being a big part of. I am having a hard time understanding why you and some others seem to think all the violence is caused by Putin.
Looking at the picture I posted, I don't see why Putin would be working with the Odessa police. You have a guy with a gun dressed up in black standing next to a cop. Looking at the video, the same cops are helping guys with the same red bands wrapped around their arms.
Add in the sniper remarks that GQ brought back up and you really don't see anything that raises an eyebrow?
Just because I am stating the West has it's hands bloody doesn't mean I am excusing anyone else involved. That is a red herring. I rather know the truth and how I feel about Putin doesn't negate that. What about you and others here?
He was elected. Fairly or not, who is to say but, that's not the point. He sold Ukraine up the river to Moscow. He was a crook, a thief and Putin's puppet, his own party wanted him out of office. The Ukrainian people/government took measures to end it. It was completed by a vote. It should also be noted it was while he was on the lamb and hiding with his master. You and numerous others here blame the West for that. You blame the West for assisting that action. Would you feel better if it wasn't the West but rather China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea?
Every politician there is a crook. All Ukrainians know that.
You can't call that vote democratic if it wasn't aligned with their constitution. I have to shake my head at the idea that people complain Putin isn't allowing Ukraine their own democracy and the same people applaud a coup backed by the US and EU trying to make it sound like the people had spoken. Well, no, the people elected Yanu and he was replaced by the people the US/EU wanted.
As for Yanu bailing from Kiev, you don't think our President would have been whisked away if there was a coup threatening? I don't understand why you think Yanu should have stayed and risked his life.
I didn't say they didn't do it. I'm not defending the actions of the Obama admin or their complicity in the Ukrainian situation. Let's keep that clear. If the West didn't do it, another country or countries would have. It is/was an opportunity that someone would have exploited/ taken advantage of. I don't like it, certainly don't agree with it or think it just but, it is, what it is. That is the reality. This reality was possible because of Yankovict, his thievery and serving Putin rather than Ukraine.
Yes, it is what it is. The west helped create a weak Ukraine and now there is a massive civil war going on. You and others can try to blame all the blood shed on Putin but that is misleading. There are many Ukrainians that were not going to accept what had happened in Kiev and that has nothing to do with Putin.
There are many fingerprints all over this situation but, the current bloodshed is clearly on Putin's hands IMHO. He is the catalyst of the fighting. If Putin were correct in his declarations, he would allow Ukrainians to have an unfettered election unimpeded with terror or disruption. The fact that he isn't should be an indicator to you.
Yanu was elected in an infettered election. Yanu even agreed to have early elections but the coup wouldn't have it. We obviously disagree on the catalyst. No big deal man, you can't be right all the time. :P
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Interesting article on the Odessa tragedy. It was pieced together, in Russia, from youtube videos so who knows if it is accurate.
http://rt.com/news/156744-video-footage-odessa-fire/ (http://rt.com/news/156744-video-footage-odessa-fire/)
(http://rt.com/files/news/26/44/80/00/cca0fa76668c35c7ec4f0fe9ef1442c4.i600x405x475.jpeg)
If there is someone who is not so stupid as Obama and others seems to look like, please, read it and look at these pictures http://ersieesist.livejournal.com/813.html Even stupid sheep could realize who has murdered people in Odessa
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...The PMs phone call while likely valid is still nothing more than heresay. Just as Nuland's. It can be just as false and it can be true....
btw- both recorded audios by Nuland and that of the PM's were all authenticated. Merkel and the German government had confirmed and even reacted unfavorably against it (Nuland's rift), and Cathy Ashton from the EU, along with the PM, admitted to the exchange and comments by the Prime Minister to also have taken place.
So, they are not heresay..
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If there is someone who is not so stupid as Obama and others seems to look like, please, read it and look at these pictures http://ersieesist.livejournal.com/813.html (http://ersieesist.livejournal.com/813.html) Even stupid sheep could realize who has murdered people in Odessa
The "facts" were a little too much a stretch for me to take serious.
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Yanu's removal is illegal. The process of impeachment was not consummated due to failure in parliamentary protocol so they simply abandoned the process and overthrew him regardless.
When will you stop crying over Yanukovych's ousting? Putin got over it. GET OVER IT and stop spreading false information. There was NO impeachment. Yanukovych was ousted because he failed to perform his duties. Nowhere in Ukraine's constitution does it say 3/4 of a vote is needed by parliament to oust a president for failing to perform his duties as it's needed for impeachment. Parliament didn't do anything wrong and Putin has stopped calling Ynaukovych president after reviewing the legalities of how Ukraine's parliament handled it.
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- blather here -
Until such time you actually understand what *non-binding* & dissenting opinions* mean, and/or what a nation's constitution provide; You shouldn't make it too obvious to us you're a stooge and a clod.
Shooo!
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You, GQ nor I have any idea what Putin's plan is. I don't think him smart either.
Is he himself? He may not be in control anymore. He maybe just a Brezhnev - a pawn shared between competing factions in the Kremlin.
My knowledge of the Siloviki is poor but if I had to guess, the real power behind the throne is this man; Dmitry Rogozin and yes its a WAG.
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1133918!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/madonna11n-1-web.jpg)
This is a GRU operation just as Georgia was and Syria is. For Russia, unlike Obama the real prize is Ukraine, not Syria or Iran. 18 pipelines and 16B of trade every year passes through Ukraine including a significant amount of defense specific commodities.
The damage he has inflicted thus far will be far reaching into the future of Russia as well as Ukraine. Russia's position on the world stage is diminishing daily. It won't bother Putin or his cronies personally as he's already moved his stolen billions all over the world. It will affect your average Russian. This includes my wife's family and our Russian family and friends in Russia. This is where my personal concern is mainly focused. I don't personally have a dog in the fight in Ukraine but, I am seeing the world being reshaped as a result and I do not like it one bit. There is a method to my madness. The best course of action for Putin right now, today is to pack up and go home and be happy with the change of Crimea. Anything beyond that is going to come at a very expensive price IMHO
I think a lot of people feel the way you do. The reason why more people don't express this sentiment, have their reasons. . . .
(http://www.eureporter.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Sergei-Magnitsky.jpg)
My in-laws are out of work or looking for work. Prices are going up in Ukraine, but they are in Bila Tserkva. I feel for CC3, his people are in Luhansk. Of my associates there, one has allied himself to Right Sector, another fled to Israel, another works in a hospital.
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FP, they didn't vote him out. The impeachment protocol never got the full process. So they overthrew him instead. Doing things outside the bounds of your presiding constitution makes it a coup. We demonize Iranians for overthrowing the Shah. The US placed him to rule Iran. He wasn't even elected or chosen by the people. We put him there so the Brits can continue to suck it's oil. You can't have it both ways, man. Yanu in Ukraine is no different than the Shah of Iran. Wrong is wrong and shouldn't be determined on what aisle any of us is sitting on.
Here, we'll have to agree to disagree. Do you believe the Muslim Brotherhood should be returned to power in Egypt? The legal process of Ukraine kicked Yankovict out. They had very valid reasons for doing so. Frankly, it's not up to me or my beliefs on the rule of law to agree or disagree with their decision. Do you believe that if they hadn't voted him out, there would be no unrest in Ukraine today?
She did exactly that, FP. She even went as far as making a point why Klitchko was not and cannot be the right choice.
She certainly said it but, there is no indication that she had the power or wherewithall to do it. She might think she does/did but that doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of things, does it? She spent a lot of someone's money. What that bought her is very fuzzy, isn't it?
On the one hand you subscribe to speculations and media misinformation simply because it adds fire against Putin. Then at the same time blatantly deny or disregard full audio recordings as heresay simply because it counters biased opinions.
Not really. I see all of the media coverage and speculation as something to be deciphered, cross checked and cross checked again.Honestly, I don't much bother cross checking the RT propaganda, only the US and BBC versions. You and I could have phone conversations where I declared I've spent oodles of money on North Star beer and I am now in a position to take over the brewery. Even though I did spend the money on the beer, it doesn't necessarily mean I get the brewery, does it?
Why hasn't the EU refute the information regarding the origin of the sniper? Why hasn't there been an investigation soon after information revealed it wasn't from Yanukovyck's corner? Look, crimes against humanity committed by Kosovars, Bosnians, etc... against the Serbs, prior to, during and after the Balkans war aren't surfacing until just recently. Almost 20 years after the war. NATO and the UN literally turned a blind eye to all these atrocities. We undermined and instigated that unrest/war just as what were doing here in Ukraine today.
I don't like Putin. I don't like him leading Russia either. But that doesn't negate one iota the US undermined this Ukrainian crisis. My dislike of Putin doesn't negate the crimes WE are committing in Ukraine through this crisis.
[/quote]
I don't know and that is a good question. Probability that accurate information on that incident will never be revealed. Trust me here, if it's not convenient to the powers that be, it will not be revealed. If it is told, it'll be suppressed so that few ever hear it. That's the world we live in. Those rules apply to the West, EU and Russia.
I agree with you, We have committed crimes in Ukraine "IF" Nuland's revelations are true. I suspect that it is half true but that is only my suspicion. I noted 20 pages ago in the thread we have complicity. That doesn't mean to the extent of bloodshed.Perhaps we do but that doesn't give Putin free gratis to rape and pillage. Trust me here brah, we are a long time from knowing the real truth of what is actually occurring, if we ever hear the full unvarnished version. That I highly doubt
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My country is in rage after Odessa massacre. Would you so kind to shut up for now.
Why is your country in such rage?
The people burned were not "Russians" were they? They were Russian vassals, correct? So nothing much was lost, was there?
It happened in Ukraine among "Ukrainians."
So, really. Why is your country in such a rage?
Can't get past the partisan war?
Ooops, a little miscalculation maybe?
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ha! What he does isn't called thinking!
Hey LFU!
I encourage you to take the guy off of ignore. Keep him talking as he can't help but harm his own cause, which is good for us that would like to keep America out of these foreign affairs.
Fathertime!
Can you tell us what is your real purpose on this list? (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online)
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Here, we'll have to agree to disagree. Do you believe the Muslim Brotherhood should be returned to power in Egypt? The legal process of Ukraine kicked Yankovict out. They had very valid reasons for doing so. Frankly, it's not up to me or my beliefs on the rule of law to agree or disagree with their decision. Do you believe that if they hadn't voted him out, there would be no unrest in Ukraine today?...
Yes, very likely to agree to disagree because:
a) If the Muslim brotherhood is the people's choice, then that's their choice. Why shouldn't they be? Regardless of who they elect to be their leaders are choices solely made by their citizens. Hell, the majority in us is making us live with this bastid White House stooge while he rapes the country unabated.
b) the ousting of the president was anything but 'legal'. Maybe there's something in the Ukrainian constitution you can show me where they can remove the president in the manner they did and within the confines of their Constitution? The Constitutional Article dealing directly with this is Article 108 in which it states:
"The President of Ukraine exercises his or her powers until the assumption of office by the newly elected President of Ukraine.
The powers of the President of Ukraine terminate prior to the expiration of term in cases of:
1. resignation;
2. inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
3. removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
4. death."
Heck, they don't even have a provision for unforeseen situations/conditions.
This is the official stated reason for his removal:
Given that President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych withdrew from performing the constitutional powers The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine hereby resolves:
He didn't withdrew. The coalition chased him out of the country when the sniper shots were fired and blamed it on him.
d) The cause of the unrest is not because of Yanu's presidency but rather the protest against of trade agreements. There has been plenty of anti-trade agreements the world over FP but none escalated to the violence you saw in Kiev. What caused the violence? Snipers. So to *guess* on your hypothesis, very likely *no*, not in the same fashion we're seeing today. Yanu has been in office for 3 years running, with one year left to his presidency. Seem rather silly to pin this pending civil war over a person's presidency which is 75% over with, no?
...She certainly said it but, there is no indication that she had the power or wherewithall to do it. She might think she does/did but that doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of things, does it? She spent a lot of someone's money. What that bought her is very fuzzy, isn't it?...
LOL. Yeah...never mind that she also said delegations from the UN will be arriving shortly to *validate* the choice and presto, the person she chose is now *running* the country. Listen to the transcript FP.
..Not really. I see all of the media coverage and speculation as something to be deciphered, cross checked and cross checked again.Honestly, I don't much bother cross checking the RT propaganda, only the US and BBC versions....
It doesn't appear you've been diligent of your cross-examination of the western media much, FP. Considering you are speculative and apprehensive of authenticated tapped audio conversations between key personnel about vital issues/segment in this crisis seem to suggest so.
...You and I could have phone conversations where I declared I've spent oodles of money on North Star beer and I am now in a position to take over the brewery. Even though I did spend the money on the beer, it doesn't necessarily mean I get the brewery, does it?...
Not if you mentioned official folks are scheduled to arrive soon to validate the sale and the very next day you're sitting in the brewery's board of governorship and running the show, yes?
...I don't know and that is a good question. Probability that accurate information on that incident will never be revealed. Trust me here, if it's not convenient to the powers that be, it will not be revealed. If it is told, it'll be suppressed so that few ever hear it. That's the world we live in. Those rules apply to the West, EU and Russia....
I would agree. But until it is fully revealed, the fact this was between Estonia's Foreign Minister and EU's representative, IMO suggests to me there's a much higher probability that Kiev's coalition should own the dubious lion's share of suspicion. After all, that is exactly the information Urmas Paet had in his conversation with Catherine in what he described as "very disturbing"....
...I agree with you, We have committed crimes in Ukraine "IF" Nuland's revelations are true. I suspect that it is half true but that is only my suspicion. I noted 20 pages ago in the thread we have complicity. That doesn't mean to the extent of bloodshed.Perhaps we do but that doesn't give Putin free gratis to rape and pillage. Trust me here brah, we are a long time from knowing the real truth of what is actually occurring, if we ever hear the full unvarnished version. That I highly doubt
...even if there's only half-truths FP, the fact is 'WE' are in there meddling. There's been many covert operations that we've done in the past, both long ago and recent past - which none of us knew about until way after the fact. That doesn't negate or lessen the gravity of our sins - regardless of intent - because lot's of people die in it. To this day, over 2,000 Serbs' bodies have not been found when the KLA, a unit we provided arms for for their rebellion, captured and took away and sent over to Albania - after the war.
http://iwpr.net/report-news/kosovo-crimes-against-serbs-investigated (http://iwpr.net/report-news/kosovo-crimes-against-serbs-investigated)
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No crime against meddling
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...Do you believe that if they hadn't voted him out, there would be no unrest in Ukraine today?...
FP, here's food for thought.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/178716/dark-side-ukraine-revolt# (http://www.thenation.com/blog/178716/dark-side-ukraine-revolt#)
"...Ukraine is in deep economic trouble, and for the past year the government has been casting about for a way out. Bailout negotiations were opened with the International Monetary Fund and the European Union, but the loan would have required onerous austerity measures that, according to Citibank analyst Ivan Tchakarov, would “most probably mean a recession in 2014.”
It was at this juncture that Yanukovych abandoned talks with the EU and opened negotiations with the Russians. That turnaround was the spark for last November’s demonstrations.
But as Ben Aris, editor of Business News Europe, says, “Under the terms of the EU offer of last year—which virtually nobody in the Western media has seriously examined—the EU was offering $160 million per year for the next five years, while just the bond payments to the IMF were greater than that.”
Russia, on the other hand, “offered $15 billion in cash and immediately paid $3 billion.… Had Yanukovych accepted the EU deal, the country would have collapsed,” says Aris.
The current situation is dangerous precisely because it touches a Russian security nerve. The Soviet Union lost some twenty-five to twenty-seven million people in World War II, and Russians to this day are touchy about their borders. They also know who inflicted those casualties, and those who celebrate a Waffen SS division are not likely to be well thought of in the south or the east of Ukraine.
Border security is hardly ancient history for the Kremlin. As Russian expert Cohen points out, “Since the Clinton administration in the 1990s, the US-led West has been on a steady march toward post-Soviet Russia, beginning with the expansion of NATO…all the way to the Russian border.”
NATO now includes Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia and former Soviet-led Warsaw Pact members Albania, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Romania.
NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen’s comment that the IMF-EU package for Ukraine would have been “a major boost for Euro-Atlantic security” suggests that NATO had set its sights on bringing Ukraine into the military alliance.
The massive demonstrations over the past three months reflected widespread outrage at the corruption of the Yanukovych regime, but they have also unleashed a dark side of Ukraine’s politics. That dark side was on display at last year’s rally in Cherkasy. Victor Smal, a lawyer and human rights activist, said he told “the men in the T-shirts they were promoting hatred. They beat me to the ground until I lost consciousness.”
Svoboda and its allies do not make up a majority of the demonstrators, but as Cohen points out, “Five percent of a population that’s tough, resolute, ruthless, armed and well funded, and knows what it wants, can make history.”
It is not the kind of history most would like to repeat...."
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Hell no. My opinion of Putin has nothing to do with anything. The PMs phone call while likely valid is still nothing more than heresay. Just as Nuland's. It can be just as false and it can be true. I'm all for an investigation but any kind of investigation isn't going to happen until Putin exits the stage, taking his invasion with him. I suspect such an investigation would reveal far more about Yanu and Putin than the West's financing protests in Kiev.
Now you are just completely misstating things....there may be a Russian invasion, BUT it hasn't happened YET. As numerous posters with relatives are stating, there is a deep divide and Ukrainians are taking to the streets.
Yes, very likely to agree to disagree because:
a) If the Muslim brotherhood is the people's choice, then that's their choice. Why shouldn't they be? Regardless of who they elect to be their leaders are choices solely made by their citizens. Hell, the majority in us is making us live with this bastid White House stooge while he rapes the country unabated.
b) the ousting of the president was anything but 'legal'. Maybe there's something in the Ukrainian constitution you can show me where they can remove the president in the manner they did and within the confines of their Constitution? The Constitutional Article dealing directly with this is Article 108 in which it states:
"The President of Ukraine exercises his or her powers until the assumption of office by the newly elected President of Ukraine.
The powers of the President of Ukraine terminate prior to the expiration of term in cases of:
1. resignation;
2. inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
3. removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
4. death."
Heck, they don't even have a provision for unforeseen situations/conditions.
This is the official stated reason for his removal:
Given that President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych withdrew from performing the constitutional powers The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine hereby resolves:
He didn't withdrew. The coalition chased him out of the country when the sniper shots were fired and blamed it on him.
d) The cause of the unrest is not because of Yanu's presidency but rather the protest against of trade agreements. There has been plenty of anti-trade agreements the world over FP but none escalated to the violence you saw in Kiev. What caused the violence? Snipers. So to *guess* on your hypothesis, very likely *no*, not in the same fashion we're seeing today. Yanu has been in office for 3 years running, with one year left to his presidency. Seem rather silly to pin this pending civil war over a person's presidency which is 75% over with, no?
LOL. Yeah...never mind that she also said delegations from the UN will be arriving shortly to *validate* the choice and presto, the person she chose is now *running* the country. Listen to the transcript FP.
It doesn't appear you've been diligent of your cross-examination of the western media much, FP. Considering you are speculative and apprehensive of authenticated tapped audio conversations between key personnel about vital issues/segment in this crisis seem to suggest so.
I think there is very little doubt that we (the US) had a lot to do with the installation of the current 'leadership'...Listening to these tapes again, and of course looking at our recent history of forcing 'regime change' it is very easy reach that conclusion. Given that, pro-Russians were not going to stand by and do nothing at all. I'd think Russia is giving some sort of support and I don't blame them for doing that. A civil war might be in the cards, but I think it can be avoided if reasonable concessions are made.
Why not allow for more autonomy in regions where that is what they are asking for...if indeed the populace of those regions votes for it? That might wind up being the best deal Ukraine can get, the longer this drags on I'd think the less palatable the outcome would be.
Fathertime!
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I didn't know there were so many Constitutional lawyers on the forum
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Why not allow for more autonomy in regions where that is what they are asking for...if indeed the populace of those regions votes for it? That might wind up being the best deal Ukraine can get, the longer this drags on I'd think the less palatable the outcome would be.
That sounds wonderful in theory, but that is what Crimea already had. From what I can see, Putin is adamant that the only solution possible agreeable to Russia is federalisation, where he can then pick off one small (relatively helpless) region at a time. If that happens, Ukraine east of the Dnieper won't exist in 10 years because Putin will have conquered annexed invited it all to become part of Russia, after managing to change the Russian constitution to allow him to be President for Life - failing that, he will install a puppet to follow him who will do exactly what Putin wants.
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That sounds wonderful in theory, but that is what Crimea already had. From what I can see, Putin is adamant that the only solution possible agreeable to Russia is federalisation, where he can then pick off one small (relatively helpless) region at a time. If that happens, Ukraine east of the Dnieper won't exist in 10 years because Putin will have conquered annexed invited it all to become part of Russia, after managing to change the Russian constitution to allow him to be President for Life - failing that, he will install a puppet to follow him who will do exactly what Putin wants.
Hey AK,
That might be true, Russia might want to pick off those regions and make them a part of Russia...BUT Russia could do that at any time. In the case of a federation, the leadership of Ukraine would need to write in reasonable requirements, one being that a region COULD not decide to secede without a countrywide vote. This is the type of discussion that I would think could happen when Ukraine finally has somebody to represent their country's desires.
Yes it is also likely that Russia could heavily influence these autonomous regions. Perhaps the majority of people in the area would approve of that influence, especially if they saw tangible benefits from it....if that were the case then more power to them...then again with the autonomy there would be certain costs written in, and they might decide that those costs (if not made up for by Russia) might not be worth the 'autonomy'.
I don't know if there is any better solution out there given the state of affairs, but I'd like to hear some other ideas.
Fathertime!
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That might be true, Russia might want to pick off those regions and make them a part of Russia...BUT Russia could do that at any time. In the case of a federation, the leadership of Ukraine would need to write in reasonable requirements, one being that a region COULD not decide to secede without a countrywide vote. This is the type of discussion that I would think could happen when Ukraine finally has somebody to represent their country's desires.
FT , your kidding ?? have you read up on the crimea farce ??
what do you think was required under the ukraine laws for crimea to hold its own referendum and be annexed by russia ?? yes it needed to be a national referendum and vote to succeed ,
just acouple of points
1 no country would join NATO if it didnt wish to , all new additions to NATO made the request to join presumably for there own security by their own volition , says something about how russia makes them nervous doesnt it ?? given the current situation who would blame them ?
2 ukraine has every right to choose who it wishes to build relationships with and the nature of those relationships , it is not required to ask permission from its neighbours,
ukrainians have every right to express their voice in a peacefull non violent way at elections /referendums under their constitution
3 finally , when will some people get it into their head that ukraine HAS already been invaded by RUSSIA !! all of putins destabilisation is designed to stop the elections on may 25th or at least discredit and hamper a clean result
4 anyone who thinks putins aim is not to weaken and destabilise ukraine and keep it tight under putins unfluence /regime control to stop it growing independent and stronger away from his russia as a good example should be putting funds into research looking for the loch ness monster as well
SX
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FT , your kidding ?? have you read up on the crimea farce ??
what do you think was required under the ukraine laws for crimea to hold its own referendum and be annexed by russia ?? yes it needed to be a national referendum and vote to succeed ,
Yes I've read up quite a bit...Russia invaded Crimea first and then held an election that probably did reflect the will of the majority...but it appears obvious the election wasn't proper.
3 finally , when will some people get it into their head that ukraine HAS already been invaded by RUSSIA !! all of putins destabilisation is designed to stop the elections on may 25th or at least discredit and hamper a clean result
I disagree with this point. Perhaps you define invasion differently than most. What is happening in Ukraine appears to be springing from the regular people that are presumably highly dissatisfied with what has happened. Those people may be getting arms from Russia. Russia probably has helped organize too. That does not constituent an invasion in my book. There is evidence that shows we support and sent arms to Syrians/Libyans but that is not a US invasion. If the troops parked on the border start barreling in with force, THAT will be an invasion, imo.
Perhaps you have a different solution that will diffuse the situation that the people can live with.
Fathertime!
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ft,
im sure you are quite a sensible guy , so im quite perplexed at your apparent lack of understanding of what you wrote
Yes I've read up quite a bit...Russia invaded Crimea first and then held an election that probably did reflect the will of the majority...but it appears obvious the election wasn't proper.
so you agree russia invaded crimea , which is legally part of the sovereign country of ukraine ??yes ??
but then you say
I disagree with this point. Perhaps you define invasion differently than most. What is happening in Ukraine appears to be springing from the regular people that are presumably highly dissatisfied with what has happened. Those people may be getting arms from Russia. Russia probably has helped organize too. That does not constituent an invasion in my book.
sir can you please make up your mind ?? and voice it clearly ?
imho an invasion has happened already and it is continuing in the s/east of ukraine , people are suffering as a direct result of putins actions , he has russians on the ground to coordinate this he is far more culpable than you give him credit for FT
SX
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ft,
im sure you are quite asensible guy , so im quite perplexed at your apaprent lack of understanding of what you wrote
so you agree russia invaded crimea , which is legally part of the sovereign country of ukraine ??yes ??
but then you say
sir can you please make up your mind ?? and voice it clearly ?
SX
Yes that was unclear I agree... I agree that Russia did invade Crimea...Russia has not invaded the mainland.
BUT in looking at your quote which was:
3 finally , when will some people get it into their head that ukraine HAS already been invaded by RUSSIA !! all of putins destabilisation is designed to stop the elections on may 25th or at least discredit and hamper a clean result
I guess this question/statement is addressed to some of the other posters then...because I'm not among those that deny an invasion of Crimea did take place prior to their vote. My intent was to refute that Russia has invaded the mainland of Ukraine as of yet.
Fathertime!
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Questions for ft, the Libyan/Syrian scenarios vis-a-vis NATO & US, those are not invasions by your definition.
1) If we deployed Special Operations forces to help the "rebels" is that an invasion?
2) Do you accept the premise that GRU and Russian Spetsnaz forces deployed in Eastern Ukraine to help the "rebels"?
3) is that an invasion?
4) If NATO mirrored Russian involvement deployment of NATO-US SOF forces in Western & Central Ukraine, is that an invasion?
5) Would you oppose such an escalation?
Thank you in advance.
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Questions for ft, the Libyan/Syrian scenarios vis-a-vis NATO & US, those are not invasions by your definition.
1) If we deployed Special Operations forces to help the "rebels" is that an invasion?
2) Do you accept the premise that GRU and Russian Spetsnaz forces deployed in Eastern Ukraine to help the "rebels"?
3) is that an invasion?
4) If NATO mirrored Russian involvement deployment of NATO-US SOF forces in Western & Central Ukraine, is that an invasion?
5) Would you oppose such an escalation?
Thank you in advance.
I don’t want to get involved with a hypothetical like that...one reason is each situation is unique and it wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison.
The position I’m holding is that Russia has not invaded mainland Ukraine at this point but it is quite likely they are meddling. If you feel what has happened at this point is a mainland invasion, then perhaps you should state your case as I've already done from my pov.
Fathertime!
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You know what I believe and what I think we should do. But I don't trust Obama to lead or order men to battle. Until we fix that, there is not much we can do. Even sending SOF into, means Obama MIGHT hang them out to dry aka Extortion 17. I am willing to accept your hands off policies as long as you accept that this will be a proxy war and that the West has a right to arm the anti-Putin Ukrainians (the fascists), deal?
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...I don't know and that is a good question. Probability that accurate information on that incident will never be revealed. Trust me here, if it's not convenient to the powers that be, it will not be revealed. If it is told, it'll be suppressed so that few ever hear it. That's the world we live in. Those rules apply to the West, EU and Russia....
FP-
I did a little search and actually found an investigation done by ARD, Germany's equivalent to BBC (western media, if you will)...
"...Fresh doubts surfaced on April 10 when ARD (the BBC of Germany) on its primetime policy special programme "Monitor", produced by the ARD subsidiary station WDR-magazin, aired an in-depth investigation into the shootings, under the title, "Deathshot in Kyiv: who is to blame for the Maidan bloodbath?" The questions raised in their investigation directly contradict the Maidan government's version of events.
The Germans, like the Estonians, are also a very credible source and the German press has invested a lot more effort into the objectivity of its reporting into the events taking place in Eastern Europe than its English-language counterparts.
The German team from ARD interviewed a senior member of the investigation team who told Monitor: "My findings disagree with the official position of the [Ukrainian] government and the Prosecutor General."...
Article carried by BNE.EU
So, no, no Russian bias here... http://www.bne.eu/content/snipergate-who-ordered-shootings-kyivs-maidan
But like you implied, unless it follows the narrative, likely the 'truth' will be buried deeper than the shale they're drilling unto today in Ukraine. But that doesn't ever negate the truth behind this crisis.
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Unbiased I am sure. Because the Russians, the Germans and Estonians, despite the mystic chords of memory are unbiased . . .
(http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/analytics/files/multi/2009-03/090324_Herman_Simm.jpg)
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While there is plentiful video footage on YouTube showing snipers in uniform firing on protestors as well as protestors hiding behind wooden shields being gunned down by police automatic weapon's fire, there is also footage that appears to show protestors being killed by shots fired from the Hotel Ukraina, which sits atop the hill at the back of the square and was fully controlled by the opposition on that day.
Monitor reported eyewitness accounts of shots being fired from the hotel. A protestor called Mikola told Monitor he was on Institute Street, home to many government buildings next to the hotel, who also claims he was shot at from behind, with the government forces in front of him. "Yes on the 20th we were shot at from behind, from the Hotel Ukraina, from the 8th or 9th floor also… Almost from the very top [of the building].. They were mercenaries, definitely professionals."
This claim is apparently backed up by one video that shows a person killed by sniper fire who was standing on the terrace that is across the road from the hotel (clearly visible in almost all the footage) and overlooks Maidan; the direction of the shot seems to come from the hotel, while the government forces were at the bottom of the hill with no clear line of fire onto the terrace.
I watched a couple of the "sniper fire" footage. Most of the shots came from in front of the protesters. Other footage shows where these snipers were. They were clearly police. They were acting like they were being/had been shot at. I have no doubt the majority of the victims were killed by the police. It was probably only 1-3 snipers that did 90% of the killing. They had an opening where they had clear view and knew exactly who they were shooting and where.
If you watch one of the medical guys....he was in the crosshairs of the snipers almost the whole time. He was never shot.
HOWEVER....in one footage clip....at least one shot was fired at the protesters from behind and to the right. It came from the same direction that whoever was filming was located. You can see the bullet hit the tree....on the "backside". A couple of the protesters glanced up and to the right.....right where that shot came from.
Now who was up there? Could have just as easily been police. Whoever it was did not shoot much more after that.
When I was in Kiev....I looked for that bullet hole. The tree was wrapped in ribbons and pictures. They covered where I believed the bullet hole was. But , all those trees in that area had something on them. Memorials.
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It happened in Ukraine among "Ukrainians."
So, really. Why is your country in such a rage?
You're right, all victims were identified as Ukrainians now. Why in a rage?
Watch and don't ask silly questions:
(http://moimir.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/10299172_813884311973362_2891681924930624601_n1.jpg)
Can't get past the partisan war?
Ooops, a little miscalculation maybe?
Yeah, ruling junta has made not little, but great miscalculation about partisan war. After Odessa people of East Ukraine will fight by any means to prevent Odessa like massacres. Woman in Slavyansk (East Ukraine):
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5308/88584892.ec/0_106c19_594d7fdd_orig.jpg)
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all victims were identified as Ukrainians now.
What is your source? I have seen the claims from both sides and would just like to know the truth.
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What is your source? I have seen the claims from both sides and would just like to know the truth.
The truth is whatever you want it to be. What happened in Odessa adds fuel to the fire for each side to justify paying back the other.
There are other operations around Ukraine where the Ukrainian military are killing pro Russians. Of course ethnic Russians are getting killed in those skirmishes. Putin who says he cares about them aren't going to send his military in to save them anytime soon. Putin's goal is Ukraine and as long as things progress into a civil war, Putin will keep his soldiers waiting in the background only to be used for the final blow.
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You know what I believe and what I think we should do. But I don't trust Obama to lead or order men to battle. Until we fix that, there is not much we can do. Even sending SOF into, means Obama MIGHT hang them out to dry aka Extortion 17. I am willing to accept your hands off policies as long as you accept that this will be a proxy war and that the West has a right to arm the anti-Putin Ukrainians (the fascists), deal?
Well of course we have the RIGHT to arm whomever we decide to…I don’t think it is a good idea in this case, and I would speak out against us doing it in Ukraine.
Fathertime!
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A majority of Americans distrust Obama as a commander: 52%
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/05/05/poll.russia.ukraine.1.pdf
http://www.financialbuzz.com/americans-oppose-military-action-against-russia-global-news-58776
According to the McClatchy/Marist opinion poll, 55 percent of Americans consider Ukraine to be important to the national interests of the US. About 39 percent are of the opinion that the country is unimportant to the US. There is almost no partisan divide when the question is raised.
However, only 7 percent of Americans say that the US should move militarily against Russia. About 46 percent of the respondents say that the best manner to deal with this problem is resorting to political or economic solutions and 43 percent believe that the US should be uninvolved in the matter. This corroborates the CNN/ORC poll done in early March when only a small percentage of Americans preferred to get the United States to interfere by armed combat in the crisis.
Two thirds of US citizens hold the opinion that Russia will not be satisfied with only Crimea and will surely send its army into other regions of Ukraine.
http://www.financialbuzz.com/americans-oppose-military-action-against-russia-global-news-58776
This is a proxy war, we should give the Ukrainians (or as the Putinists say the 'Kiev Junta') enough guns to drive the Russians into the sea defend themselves.
And I am very disappointed in the Germans.
@DamonMacWilson
So called pro-Russian separatists are too organized, too well armed to deny Moscow's hand says LtGen Schissler at #ACCommanders #ACUkraine
I don’t think it is a good idea in this case, and I would speak out against us doing it in Ukraine.
Why?
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FP-
I did a little search and actually found an investigation done by ARD, Germany's equivalent to BBC (western media, if you will)...
"...Fresh doubts surfaced on April 10 when ARD (the BBC of Germany) on its primetime policy special programme "Monitor", produced by the ARD subsidiary station WDR-magazin, aired an in-depth investigation into the shootings, under the title, "Deathshot in Kyiv: who is to blame for the Maidan bloodbath?" The questions raised in their investigation directly contradict the Maidan government's version of events.
The Germans, like the Estonians, are also a very credible source and the German press has invested a lot more effort into the objectivity of its reporting into the events taking place in Eastern Europe than its English-language counterparts.
The German team from ARD interviewed a senior member of the investigation team who told Monitor: "My findings disagree with the official position of the [Ukrainian] government and the Prosecutor General."...
Article carried by BNE.EU
So, no, no Russian bias here... http://www.bne.eu/content/snipergate-who-ordered-shootings-kyivs-maidan
But like you implied, unless it follows the narrative, likely the 'truth' will be buried deeper than the shale they're drilling unto today in Ukraine. But that doesn't ever negate the truth behind this crisis.
GQ
I believe this to be key:
"Monitor reported eyewitness accounts of shots being fired from the hotel. A protestor called Mikola told Monitor he was on Institute Street, home to many government buildings next to the hotel, who also claims he was shot at from behind, with the government forces in front of him. "Yes on the 20th we were shot at from behind, from the Hotel Ukraina, from the 8th or 9th floor also… Almost from the very top [of the building].. They were mercenaries, definitely professionals."
Who these snipers are associated with and who gave the order will probably never be known. The secrecy which in and of itself lends itself to be a government entity of some sort. The Fascists is as an easy escape goat as is Yanukovict. Berkut uniforms firing from the positions of the opposition at the end of the day proves little and doesn't exonerate Yanu. Other eye witnesses said they were not in unis.
It was designed for complete secrecy and mystery which points to "power". Yanu, Berkut, Putin and even Nuland fits this profile. The fascists or the opposition, not so much.
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Why?
I feel there are numerous reasons to stay away which I've stated many times upthread and in others. One bottom line is it is not our fight.
Of you feel there is a compelling case to commit our limited resources then you should make it.
Fathertime!
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I feel there are numerous reasons to stay away which I've stated many times upthread and in others. One bottom line is it is not our fight.
Of you feel there is a compelling case to commit our limited resources then you should make it.
Fathertime!
I just think it is consistent some would say hypocritical that you would condemn in stentorian tones the atrocities of anti-Putinist forces while blind to those committed by his cohorts in his name.
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I just think it is consistent some would say hypocritical that you would condemn in stentorian tones the atrocities of anti-Putinist forces while blind to those committed by his cohorts in his name.
You are now just making things up once again. If you can provide the quote where I loudly criticized Ukrainian forces for attacking pro Russia gunmen I will stand corrected. Now that you made the accusation if you cannot provide the quote doesn't mean you are lying and further weaken your credibility?
Fathertime!
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You are now just making things up once again. If you can provide the quote where I loudly criticized Ukrainian forces for attacking pro Russia gunmen I will stand corrected. Now that you made the accusation if you cannot provide the quote doesn't mean you are lying and further weaken your credibility?
My credibility? I am not the only one criticizing you. People who hate me agree with me against you. You won't even admit that Russians have invaded Ukraine . . .
For all others, VICE News captures the thuggish nature or the new Donetsk People's Republic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BSSocdQor8
In this video you will see beatings aka mob rule or as a prominent forum noninterventionist proclaims "letting others handle it", and you will see how Sergey demand money from a bank at the point of a gun with a piece of paper saying its legal.
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My credibility? I am not the only one criticizing you. People who hate me agree with me against you. You won't even admit that Russians have invaded Ukraine . . .
You made the accusation. .it should be easy for you to provide the quote.
Crying victim that everyone hates you is no evidence. Where is the quote? Maybe you were just making things up again (lying)?
Fathertime!
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You deny there is an invasion. You deny that a state of war exists in Ukraine. You proclaim the innocence of those provocateurs killed in Odessa. You call the government in Kiev illegal. Or am I making this up too?
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You deny there is an invasion. You deny that a state of war exists in Ukraine. You proclaim the innocence of those provocateurs killed in Odessa. You call the government in Kiev illegal. Or am I making this up too?
You failed to provide any evidence for your first lie so why should I bother to address the new lies?
It is interested to see you meltdown because somebody disagrees...carry on...I'm a little anxious to see what you will make up next.
Fathertime!
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What is funny is that you are the first to complain about the pettiness of others but cannot see that you yourself are acting in such a fashion.
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What is funny is that you are the first to complain about the pettiness of others but cannot see that you yourself are acting in such a fashion.
I was waiting for you to provide a quote regarding the first falsehood you wrote...but obviously none is forthcoming.
When somebody is so willing to bald-face lie because they're being disagreed with it also calls into question everything else they say...personal history...what they have done/accomplished..etc.
I'd rather just exchange viewpoints/ideas with rational somewhat balanced people.
Fathertime!
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You're right, all victims were identified as Ukrainians now. Why in a rage?
Watch and don't ask silly questions:
(http://moimir.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/10299172_813884311973362_2891681924930624601_n1.jpg)
Yeah, ruling junta has made not little, but great miscalculation about partisan war. After Odessa people of East Ukraine will fight by any means to prevent Odessa like massacres. Woman in Slavyansk (East Ukraine):
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5308/88584892.ec/0_106c19_594d7fdd_orig.jpg)
Sorry but your Ministry of Propaganda info is erroneous. The majority were NOT from Ukraine. You can guess from where. That must be the rage your country is going through.
Putler knows that if he escalates this conflict it will be the end of the world as we know it, as the song goes. So he is hoping that the tourists do their job and create a flood of sentiment towards Russia. The simple problem is that even on Eastern Ukraine over 70% DO NOT want to be ruled by Russians. So get ready for the partisan war.
BTW, keep beating the shit out of the Tatars in Krim. Seems you guys enjoy tribal terrorism.
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And where is YOUR proof of identification?
Or does it become truth when you lie?
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And where is YOUR proof of identification?
Or does it become truth when you lie?
Muzh made a statement of fact...if he has credible links then lets take a look...thus far he has provided nothing...
I'm also curious as to who exactly was killed...I think they were Ukrainians but haven't seen a list names and where they lived yet.
Fathertime!
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And where is YOUR proof of identification?
Or does it become truth when you lie?
LMFAO
Why do I have to lie? I'm not trying to make millions my vassals. Did you already forgot what happened in Europe some years ago? Or is it that you remember it vividly?
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Muzh made a statement of fact...if he has credible links then lets take a look...thus far he has provided nothing...
I'm also curious as to who exactly was killed...I think they were Ukrainians but haven't seen a list names and where they lived yet.
Fathertime!
Oh, here is the other one.
Why do you really care who was killed? Do you have a dog on this fight?
I asked you a question sometime ago and you conveniently ignored it.
As far as I'm concerned you are probably getting paid by the Ministry of Propaganda.
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LMFAO
Why do I have to lie? I'm not trying to make millions my vassals. Did you already forgot what happened in Europe some years ago? Or is it that you remember it vividly?
Yes, I remember that 29 million Russians died in order to let the Americans claim victory over fascism.
And this will not be different. Russians will lose the most people, and America will claim it solved the problem.
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Oh, here is the other one.
Why do you really care who was killed? Do you have a dog on this fight?
I asked you a question sometime ago and you conveniently ignored it.
As far as I'm concerned you are probably getting paid by the Ministry of Propaganda.
Thus far the evidence for your earlier statement about who was killed in Odessa is that fathertime is getting paid by the Russians. That is very strong evidence, perhaps even overwhelming! You mist have had a lot of success in life with reasoning like that!
Fathertime!
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I was waiting for you to provide a quote regarding the first falsehood you wrote...but obviously none is forthcoming.
When somebody is so willing to bald-face lie
You know what? I retract my statement. What I mistook for hatred for Ukrainian freedom was a hatred for your own country. That is startling and disturbing. Have you thought about running for President?
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You know what? I retract my statement. What I mistook for hatred for Ukrainian freedom was a hatred for your own country. That is startling and disturbing. Have you thought about running for President?
Ok that is fine. Thanks for admitting and retracting the false statement.
Haha, but I don't think Obama hates the country..and I like it just fine myself despite what I see as a very self-destructive foreign policy.
Fathertime!
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false statement.
A misunderstanding differs from a lie in shape and intent. It would be nice if you would demonstrate some of that courtesy that you insist from others
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A misunderstanding differs from a lie in shape and intent. It would be nice if you would demonstrate some of that courtesy that you insist from others
misunderstanding...once or twice, maybe 3 times...yeah ok...but after a while it looks like an intentional tactic.
I don't demonstrate any more courtesy than the person to whom I'm dealing with has given me...seems fair enough.
Fathertime!
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as time goes by , more information comes to the surface , i think this is important enough to post twice
crimea more real referendum results on march 16
link below
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/
To make sure no one misses this:
Official Kremlin results: 97 percent of polled voters for annexation, turnout 83 percent, and 82 percent of total Crimean population voting in favor.
President’s Human Rights Council mid-point estimate: 55 percent of polled voters for annexation, turnout 40 percent, 22.5 percent of total Crimean population voting in favor.
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more democratic help from russia
link below
http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1399384730
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more info on odessa fires
http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1399333622
SX
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As some of the posters hate America and hate our government. Might it be an interested of all concerned to listen to what senior members of the 4th Estate have to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLOVWuTKQX4
Listen to the last 10 seconds of the video where George Will says, "notice we aren't talking about Crimea anymore. Crimea is a done deal."
That statement is an outrage & pretext for war with Russia.
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more odessa info below in the link
what jumps out is the totally different attire worn by pro ukrainians [normal street casual ] & pro russians semi prptective militia clothing ]
and the carrying of weapons by pro russians
http://napaki.livejournal.com/100072.html
SX
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as time goes by , more information comes to the surface , i think this is important enough to post twice
crimea more real referendum results on march 16
link below
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/)
Hi SX,
It appears that the article Muzh linked out of anger, on the propaganda thread is a phony..but he has slithered away.
This would be very big news, if it were credible yet the major news outlets aren't touching it....it appears that it was a blogger making things up....the story seems far fetched....with nothing to back it up.
Not that I believe the 97% number either, because I think most people don't.
Fathertime!
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This would be very big news, if it were credible yet the major news outlets aren't touching it....it appears that it was a blogger making things up....the story seems far fetched....with nothing to back it up.
FT , i cant gaurantee it is legite , however the connections do seem to have credibility , not only in this story but in others iv read from them , as for it not being picked up by major news outlets, probably a few reasons for that
first is its been removed from the russian web ,
second, is just about all players recognise crimeas is a done deal , all else is argueing about semantics of the russian invasion there ,
third every new hour brings much more ghastly front page stuff to run with for news outlets ,
with time the smaller investigations/web sites will throw up items like this
similar with yanuconvicts money trail etc etc as pieces are placed together from many sources
SX
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A lot of the pro-Putin shills brag about how Russia has a free press. If Russia's press is free, why do so many of its journalists end up dead?
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02002/Anna-Politkovskaya_2002682b.jpg)
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FT , i cant gaurantee it is legite , however the connections do seem to have credibility , not only in this story but in others iv read from them , as for it not being picked up by major news outlets, probably a few reasons for that
first is its been removed from the russian web ,
second, is just about all players recognise crimeas is a done deal , all else is argueing about semantics of the russian invasion there ,
third every new hour brings much more ghastly front page stuff to run with for news outlets ,
with time the smaller investigations/web sites will throw up items like this
similar with yanuconvicts money trail etc etc as pieces are placed together from many sources
SX
Forbes is a legit website but, it's like all the rest of the legit sites, in that the truth is there but should be questioned
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FT , i cant gaurantee it is legite , however the connections do seem to have credibility , not only in this story but in others iv read from them , as for it not being picked up by major news outlets, probably a few reasons for that
first is its been removed from the russian web ,
second, is just about all players recognise crimeas is a done deal , all else is argueing about semantics of the russian invasion there ,
third every new hour brings much more ghastly front page stuff to run with for news outlets ,
with time the smaller investigations/web sites will throw up items like this
similar with yanuconvicts money trail etc etc as pieces are placed together from many sources
SX
That is the truth for sure,( bolded quote)
The details of numbers of Crimean poll I posted links about a week later that had a lot of this info-- from recollection it was about 36%(or less) eligible voted. Also of question at that time( and forever of course) was who was voting and how many times individuals voted. The source at that time has proved credible and very early with a lot of other info.
What is ridiculous is that some still want to argue about that poll--it was a sham from one end to the other. It's only purpose was so Putin could say --look at all the support we have for invasion and usurping Ukrainian Sovereign territory.
The persistant comment about "majorities" is a 100% nonsense comment-- nothing was decided on any acceptable basis.
The pattern is now being attempted again in eastern/southern Ukraine-- the intent is not to let anything go to a scrutanisable election at any cost.
To FT( & others)-- some of us are not here for the sake of a debate of theoretical points of view-- these are real life emotional issues for many here. It is not about pro-Rus or even pro-Ukraine--it is about Ukrainians right to make choices themselves-- and not at the point of a gun.Most of us-- were at worst ambivalent about Russia before the Crimean invasion. So many families are rooted in both countries that have so much common modern history-- so what is going on now is so distasteful in every way.
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What is truly ridiculous is that people seek at any kind of straws not to have to believe the truth.
Posting fake pictures in order to make it seem that the 'soccer fans' with contained speciald forces of the Ukrainian army were innocent people, and the 'terrorists' burned themselves.
Face the truth. Even if you wish to support the Orangists (and you are free to do that) stop denying the terrible act that people did, and forget the idea that the side you label as 'good' can not commit atrocities.
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Its war. Get over it.
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Its war. Get over it.
What war? In February you told there was a victory. So how can there be war now.
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I just read that Russia was pulling it troops aeay from Ukrainian border and encouraging a postponement of the goofy referendum this Sunday. This moght bode well for no invasion of the mainland... which i never felt was feasible. Perhaps there is a deal in the works.
Fathertime!
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Mike Giglio is reporting Russian volunteers are filibustering inside Ukraine. Multiple accounts report Spetsnaz in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. You deny there is a war or invasion. What a win win . . .
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Mike Giglio is reporting Russian volunteers are filibustering inside Ukraine. Multiple accounts report Spetsnaz in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. You deny there is a war or invasion. What a win win . . .
Bwahaha...you seem very disappointed at any potential lessening of tensions. ...TOO BAD for you that your wet dream of sending other people's children into pointless battlefield charges may not come to fruition...I feel soooo sorry for you!
Fathertime!
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Practice what you preach
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Practice what you preach
I am. I’m showing a dishonorable individual, what he has earned… no respect…Why complain? you had your opportunities to discuss things in an honest/rational way...you chose to distort/misrepresent/name-call... You reap what you have sewn.
Fathertime!
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has putin blinked ?? time will tell
one would hope so and it will reduce tensions etc
major damage has already been done between ukrainians , east and west by his hand
however my cynical side thinks it is more strategic manouvering to confuse & delay his main ambition, with a get out of town back door plan if needed
watch now as we all try to again analyze his motives and forescast his aims
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/07/us-ukraine-crisis-putin-idUSBREA460WI20140507
SX
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/07/us-ukraine-crisis-putin-idUSBREA460WI20140507
Putin's call for pro-Moscow separatists to postpone an independence referendum in eastern Ukraine is more important than him pulling back his troops. Putin was always in charge of Pro Russians in Ukraine and violence should stop at his command....at least temporarily. Will Putin give the May 25 election a chance by asking pro Russians to take non violent action and speak their minds at the ballot?
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I am. I’m showing a dishonorable individual, what he has earned… no respect…Why complain? you had your opportunities to discuss things in an honest/rational way...you chose to distort/misrepresent/name-call... You reap what you have sewn.
Fathertime!
Ok
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Putin has a second rate military. And most of it is in Syria. He is afraid he will be baited into an Afghanistan on his European border.
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has putin blinked ?? time will tell
one would hope so and it will reduce tensions etc
major damage has already been done between ukrainians , east and west by his hand
however my cynical side thinks it is more strategic manouvering to confuse & delay his main ambition, with a get out of town back door plan if needed
watch now as we all try to again analyze his motives and forescast his aims
SX
hehe, yeah SX now it is time to weigh in with the next round of new perspectives.
If indeed Russia is moving their troops back, it is no surprise to me…I didn’t feel those troops were going to launch an invasion, as it never made sense to me that loading up on the border and telegraphing would be the way they would go about doing it in this case. Russia did take Crimea and they could leave it at that. The USA can claim their tough sanctions made Russia retreat.
It is possible that Putin’s people secretly met with whoever is representing the other side, and they are closer to some sort of understanding. They should end with a negotiation with concessions from both sides rather than tanks and bullets. Although it aggravates some, from my perspective when trying to look at the entire situation it appears unique enough to where it is not simply one country invading another for no good reason. hopefully things are on the path of settling down although I would think there will be some more bumps in the road and bloodshed.
that is my 2 cents.
Fathertime!
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If indeed Russia is moving their troops back, it is no surprise to me…I didn’t feel those troops were going to launch an invasion, as it never made sense to me that loading up on the border and telegraphing would be the way they would go about doing it in this case. Russia did take Crimea and they could leave it at that.
FT,
ill reserve judegment yet on ''if '' putin does actually pull troops back , personally i dont think he will
HOWEVER I HOPE IM WRONG ;) and he does indeed follow through
I didn’t feel those troops were going to launch an invasion, as it never made sense to me that loading up on the border and telegraphing would be the way they would go about doing it in this case.
gotta offer the other side of the coin to that statement above
it made perfect sense to have his troops there on standby ,openely telegraphing his possible intent to ukraine
they where good for intimidation to all he may use them , this would possibly deter the ukraine gov from a military hard line crack down in the s/east of ukraine when/where he put his crimea play book into operation ,
it made it easier to move militia /equipment about on the border & across in covertly
it gave a strong sense of belief to all his propoganda both to russians at home and ukrainians, EU, NATO, USA , ETC that he was fully prepared to move in if the situation arose at short notice , thus detering anyone else from placing peacekeepers in ukraine
and promoting the call to russia for help from seperatist terrorists etc
it all added into the very volatile destabilisation tactics he wanted to inflict on ukraine
pretty much all l electricity , water , transport to criemea is via the south east of ukraine , let alone the gas and military &other manufactuaring he would gain , yes it needs infastructure development , but that is short term stuff , a decade from now it could help drive russias economy ,
it has made perfect sense to take the south east ,if he can do it at min cost to himself , at first it looked highly possible , now ukraines gov with support has been able to hold and counter back against the seperatists, they have shown it may prove costlier than putin at first thought ,
he may have misjudged the level of support he would get there for russian control
this call today by putin to pull back troops , and support for the election may again be a stalling tactic to portray a de,escalation , while allowing his covert operation time to regroup and reset
time will tell , personally i hope im completly wrong in my thoughts from feb till now about his course of action , nothing would please me more to be honest , lol
SX
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For your information, Russia never massed enough troops to mount an invasion. I discussed this pages ago.
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FT,
ill reserve judegment yet on ''if '' putin does actually pull troops back , personally i dont think he will
HOWEVER I HOPE IM WRONG ;) and he does indeed follow through
gotta offer the other side of the coin to that statement above
it made perfect sense to have his troops there on standby ,openely telegraphing his possible intent to ukraine
they where good for intimidation to all he may use them , this would possibly deter the ukraine gov from a military hard line crack down in the s/east of ukraine when/where he put his crimea play book into operation ,
it made it easier to move militia /equipment about on the border & across in covertly
it gave a strong sense of belief to all his propoganda both to russians at home and ukrainians, EU, NATO, USA , ETC that he was fully prepared to move in if the situation arose at short notice , thus detering anyone else from placing peacekeepers in ukraine
and promoting the call to russia for help from seperatist terrorists etc
it all added into the very volatile destabilisation tactics he wanted to inflict on ukraine
pretty much all l electricity , water , transport to criemea is via the south east of ukraine , let alone the gas and military &other manufactuaring he would gain , yes it needs infastructure development , but that is short term stuff , a decade from now it could help drive russias economy ,
it has made perfect sense to take the south east ,if he can do it at min cost to himself , at first it looked highly possible , now ukraines gov with support has been able to hold and counter back against the seperatists, they have shown it may prove costlier than putin at first thought ,
he may have misjudged the level of support he would get there for russian control
this call today by putin to pull back troops , and support for the election may again be a stalling tactic to portray a de,escalation , while allowing his covert operation time to regroup and reset
time will tell , personally i hope im completly wrong in my thoughts from feb till now about his course of action , nothing would please me more to be honest , lol
SX
sx, i hear you...I just think that those troops could have swept in there with reinforcements and he knew it but choose against it..they served his purposes without doing very much.
.. my feeling remains that he never intended to occupy...you wrote several reasons why the troops would be there without invading and I agree with all of that....if he can have those regions semi-autonomous that should be victory enough...he might have helped stir up enough discord to accomplish it too...we shall see if there is a forthcoming backroom deal...or if this is merely a stall like you said it might be...
I feel he should just call it a day after all he took control of Crimea...I would think anything else would just be a reach and a bonus.
Fathertime!
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For your information, Russia never massed enough troops to mount an invasion. I discussed this pages ago.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/02/uk-ukraine-crisis-breedlove-idUKBREA310J820140402
gator , the top NATO general disagrees with you ,
going back well over amonth ago he stated putin [russia had a sizable fully capable force of taking s/east of ukraine across to the moldova border in 3-5 days taking the kharkiv, luhansk , donest , oddessa regions if a decision was made to use it
however if he did a far greater force would be needed to occupy this territory once taken by russia , hopefully with the resistance being shown by ukraine this has swayed putin to rehtink his objectives somewhat
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gator , the top NATO general disagrees with you ,
going back well over amonth ago he stated putin [russia had a sizable fully capable force of taking s/east of ukraine across to the moldova border in 3-5 days taking the kharkiv, luhansk , donest , oddessa regions if a decision was made to use it
however if he did a far greater force would be needed to occupy this territory once taken by russia , hopefully with the resistance being shown by ukraine this has swayed putin to rehtink his objectives somewhat
coincidentally there is an article today that addresses this issue...here it is: [size=78%]http://www.cnbc.com/id/101646693 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/101646693)[/size]
---one statement in the article states that Ukraine would only have around 7000 troops prepared to fight in E. Ukraine...
given how often we read about Ukrainian troops being confronted and leaving just during with these building takeovers, you gotta wonder what they would do against a full fledged army....Russia might have been able to storm through those parts with very little gunfire....who knows...but it seems clear Russia could have essentially rolled right through....the problem would have been the occupation and having to deal with guerrillas forevermore, guerrillas that western powers might try to arm...when all these moves get thought about in advance, an invasion would be very costly and not worthwhile...
Fathertime!
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Saboteurs responsible for supplying firearms. Reuters SBU detained saboteurs SBU detained two saboteurs who belonged to the group of the Central Intelligence Colonel General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation Igor Strelkova . "As part of the anti-terrorist operation on April 23 SBU detained two dangerous criminals who were part of a subversive group Strelkova" - said the head of the press center of the Security Service of Ukraine Maryna Ostapenko. She said one of the detainees involved in the coordination of the Crimean branch of "Russian Unity" and members of the reconnaissance and sabotage groups GRU of the General Staff of the Armed Forces organized a delight adminbudivel Artemivsk and Slavic Donetsk region. Read more: In the East, "vpolyuvaly" FSBshnykiv and saboteurs Million USD Ostapenko added that specified saboteur was also responsible for the supply of firearms. It is reported that from 7 to 20 October, was arrested in the Crimea, where he appropriate instruction in destabilizing the situation in the south-eastern regions of Ukraine. "The second detainee - a citizen of" C ", which entered the territory of Ukraine, using as cover passport of citizen of Ukraine," - she said. Earlier it was reported that the former head of the SBU said that in Ukraine have detained 25 commandos from Russia .
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/sbushniki-zatrimali-diversantiv-iz-grupi-rosiyskogo-specnazivcya-stryelkova-346831.html
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This could have some credence on why Putin is piking it ( if he really is?)
Quoting
Ukrainian southeast did not support the idea of secession from the country, which was a shock for Putin. In an interview, said former adviser Andrei Illarionov, Vladimir Putin, reports "Media of Ukraine": "In Ukraine there were no region, no area in which Putin's support would have been enough," - said Illarionov. According to him, "despite to seize administrative buildings in eastern Ukraine, the number of inhabitants of these regions, supporting the separatists and the separation of the regions of Ukraine "was Putin shockingly low. "April 18" Zerkalo Nedeli "published the results of a detailed survey on nayzlobodennishyh issues in each area of the South East. Even in Lugansk and Donetsk regions that are most different from other Ukrainian regions, supporters of separatism appeared twice - three times less than the opponents. As a result, Putin became the victim (add: initiative victim) the myth of the fairy Novorossia, which he fed his spin doctors ever since the Orange Revolution. No chance in Putin's plan for the New department has not been from the beginning - it was a real adventure, "- he said. Former Adviser Putin said that Russian President spent time trying to stir up pro-Russian sentiment in eastern Ukraine turned into a tragedy, but no results : "In order to see this, Putin took several weeks generally unsuccessful blasting operations of Russian special forces that resulted in the death of many people on both sides of the front unleashed Putin Russian-Ukrainian War. Putin burned matches, poured gasoline pidkladav dust ... but not Ukraine as a whole, nor its south and east, or even some of the most "separatist" region is not "broke." "Incendiary material" as a pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine proved negligible. " one of the markers end escapade Andrei Illarionov called the Security Service intercepted conversation between leaders and coordinators separatists in Russia: "An additional confirmation of the inexorable approach of a grand failure was intercepted SBU Barkashov conversation with one of the leaders separatists. Its content is illustrative because it terrorists themselves say that they can not even hold a referendum adulterated. " "A few days ago Dmitry Timchuk the" Information opposition "drew attention to the fact that about ten days ago Putin began his rotation abandoned Agents . Derived HRUshnyky VDVshnyky and were replaced by the Cossacks, "titushkamy" Colorado with a different training. Realizing that his plan fails, Putin began replacement of its elite forces those in the language of intelligence and kremlivtsiv called "canned" - said the expert. According to him, Putin is now nothing to do but to rely on diplomacy, but the situation Ukraine will continue to loose: "Now he will try to transfer the weight of the main campaign to destabilize Ukraine field of special operations to diplomatic. Now he relies on negotiations, which by means of neomyunhentsiv try to draw a Ukrainian secret service. Greater risk of another Geneva with another "Brzezinski plan 'putting on Ukraine without massive use of military force. Without a doubt, requirements will be failure of Ukraine's membership in the European Union, NATO, the security of non-aligned status. In other words, will continue in an attempt to implement the scenario of external control Ukraine. When rude deprived little meaningful support, then the weight is transferred to the Munich-type methods. " Former Advisor of the Russian president believes that most of the separatists in eastern Ukraine has nothing depends on: "As for the position of most separatists now it has little value . Will they continue their doomed game, or they will soon explain what should heed the advice of Putin, is not as important. If they do not follow the advice of Putin, their fate will be similar to the fate of those in the jargon of special services called "canned." If they still believe that Putin will come to their aid with military force, they are mistaken. He tries to save them by using the so-called negotiations and international organizations. Let's see how this attempt to respond Ukrainian
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NATO reports Russian withdrawal bogus. Putin instead is missile testing.
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For your information, Russia never massed enough troops to mount an invasion. I discussed this pages ago.
The number I read numerous times was 40K. That is plenty to launch an invasion on any country sharing a border. More so on a country unprepared to defend itself.
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NATO reports Russian withdrawal bogus.
Victory Day is a big holiday in Russia. Could be Putin allowed some or even most soldiers stationed along the border a few days leave to party/celebrate in nearby towns to keep moral up. Putin then could claim he never lied about troop withdrawal even if it's only for a few days/hours.
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Ah another win win
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Victory Day is a big holiday in Russia. Could be Putin allowed some or even most soldiers stationed along the border a few days leave to party/celebrate in nearby towns to keep moral up. Putin then could claim he never lied about troop withdrawal even if it's only for a few days/hours.
very possible
i had the pleasure of being in st petes on may 9th many years ago , it was a huge event , military parades, full on banners ,streets and buildings dressed up , war veterans in full uniform and all getting flowers and full respect on the metro , buses etc wherever you went from all generations as a thank you for their efforts
funny thing is i still have my ribbon from that event given to me to wear on the day , it now represents something entirley different
very memorable patriotic event
SX
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Bloodbath at Mariupol near Cafe Arbat, more win wins. . .
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1 million referendum ballots destroyed by Right sector in Donetsk.
http://www.unn.com.ua/uk/news/1339931-nevidomi-kotri-u-donetsku-znischili-byuleteni-dlya-referendumu-buli-iz-povyazkami-pravogo-sektoru-ochevidtsi
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So what? It's an illegal referendum.
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Bloodbath at Mariupol near Cafe Arbat, more win wins. . .
I'm delighted to have a new pet who always has me in all of his thoughts. ;)
Fathertime!
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1 million referendum ballots destroyed by Right sector in Donetsk.
But new ones coming in, which are conveniently already pre-filled in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcyNGvbPGw
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The same story was with the Crimea. ... In reality only 15% of people in the Crimea voted for Russian Federation... mostly older generation that lived under Stalin and communists.
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But new ones coming in, which are conveniently already pre-filled in.
Jeez they are tough on voter fraud over there! They bind the fraudsters hands behind their backs and then suffocate them with black plastic bags over their heads. No trial? So whose side are we to be on?
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After close and repeated examination I conclude they are not dead. The first guy's plastic bag moves from breathing. The second guy is completely motionless but his feet are in a position a corpse would not be in. The third guy moves his left leg a little and then it looks and sounds like the standing man kicks him. War time atrocities are common and frankly everywhere. Look at the results of Western propaganda. Civilian casualties are collateral damage, that the NATO bombing of Libya was a kinetic action and torturing people is only enhanced interrogation.
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Yeah,
Let's feel sorry for those referendum rigging,armed-to-the teeth, poor little gangsters/terrorists :rolleyes:
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Yeah,
Let's feel sorry for those referendum rigging,armed-to-the teeth, poor little gangsters/terrorists :rolleyes:
I don't feel sorry for them. I don't feel sorry for the people that you take sides with like those folks who killed over a hundred people in a burning building in Odessa. All I heard was it was justified because they "reaped what they sown." I wonder what the baby inside the strangled pregnant woman had done?
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Looks like you took a side to me.
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Maxx2,
But you wasn't commenting on the strangled pregnant woman in Odessa was you ?
No,you were looking for sympathy for the captured gangsters/terrorists in the above video.
So,now you're attempting to deflect.
Of course,in your mind,this is all down to western propaganda,as you stated in your previous posting.
So,it was western people who were in that Odessa building killing the people,including the strangled pregnant woman, inside was it ?
It was western people shooting into the crowd in Odessa was it,or was it western people lobbing Molotov cocktails at the building ?
It was the west who invaded and stole Crimea from Ukraine was it ?
Ask the countries near Russia who are members of NATO how relieved they are to be part of NATO,so relatively safe from the ravages of Russia.
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I think CB has you nailed to the bar. Look Max, we don't hate you. I rather like you compared to the other Putinistas but Putin is a rather greasy Tony Soprano. Just as Viktor Yanukovych is a loathesome thug. Why are you defendung these people.
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CB & LT--- some of these same guys are so anti-American that they will seriously tell us that the moon landing was faked!! That 9/11 did not happen or that the US blew up the trade centre themselves!! In addition is some of the ludicrous denials of the reality in Ukraine in the last few months-- and if it did happen it was the US's doing!!
The funny thing is that the very same guys( with one exception) have generally trolled threads with insults and derogatory comments towards other posters in a personal way--it says it all about them.!! :) :wallbash:
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Looks like you took a side to me.
No I never did. We just point out things that others leave off. Those that take the Ukrainian side in this matter say we back Putin, love him and call us names. Frankly I believe the theory about his part in Ryazan. Back when he was consolidating power in 1999.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sx2YmSXDy8
If you want to feel bad about Putin then watch this one.
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CB & LT--- some of these same guys are so anti-American that they will seriously tell us that the moon landing was faked!! That 9/11 did not happen or that the US blew up the trade centre themselves!! In addition is some of the ludicrous denials of the reality in Ukraine in the last few months-- and if it did happen it was the US's doing!!
The funny thing is that the very same guys( with one exception) have generally trolled threads with insults and derogatory comments towards other posters in a personal way--it says it all about them.!! :) :wallbash:
Just another attempt to demonize. I love America I just don't love it's propaganda and silly insipid strawman arguments like this one above.
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Maxx2,
But you wasn't commenting on the strangled pregnant woman in Odessa was you ?
No,you were looking for sympathy for the captured gangsters/terrorists in the above video.
So,now you're attempting to deflect.
My sympathy is towards the innocents over there. I was commenting on the atrocities of war. If those guys on the ground were executed without a fair trial then that is an atrocity.
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But gun-toting,referendum-rigging gangsters are not innocents are they...and regarding "executions" you're speculating again,and not dealing in the facts as we know them and from what we can actually see.
This is assuming the video is genuine of course..after all we're talking Ukraine here..where many things are not as they seem,corruption and dishonesty being a way of life for many,with Russia no better.
And yet you prefer to slander the supposed bad morals of the western propaganda,when the video is about referendum rigging seperatists in Ukraine :rolleyes:
Seems to me some people on here are in self-denial at what is happening in Ukraine..seriously.
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Just another attempt to demonize. I love America I just don't love it's propaganda and silly insipid strawman arguments like this one above.
Maxx, you're wasting your time. You should have realized by now that there are quite a few members here that don't have the brain capacity to understand if one was to point out flaws doesn't mean that person hate their country.
Don't forget, unless you condemn someone they think you are for them. It's a sad reality how these people try and comprehend the world.
These same people would fall over like a new born if they were to chew gum. Just sympathize with their plight and remember it's not their fault they were born this way.
I mean you got one idiot telling an Iraqi combat veteran that he should stay home if he can't handle cancelled flights. The dude was just complaining about wasting time and money because he never got to his destination. Hilarious!
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Maxx, you're wasting your time. You should have realized by now that there are quite a few members here that don't have the brain capacity to understand if one was to point out flaws doesn't mean that person hate their country.
Don't forget, unless you condemn someone they think you are for them. It's a sad reality how these people try and comprehend the world.
These same people would fall over like a new born if they were to chew gum. Just sympathize with their plight and remember it's not their fault they were born this way.
I mean you got one idiot telling an Iraqi combat veteran that he should stay home if he can't handle cancelled flights. The dude was just complaining about wasting time and money because he never got to his destination. Hilarious!
Thank you! I was just realizing that as I started to read his post and thought what's the use. Then I decided to read yours instead and you carried my exact thoughts.
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In Luhansk four guys shot for greeting "Glory to Ukraine!"
11.05.2014 1:10
12
In Lugansk "Freedom" said the separatists shot guys for pro-Ukrainian greeting
On May 10 Bryanka (Lugansk region) three hundred meters from the checkpoint near the shop drunk separatists shot four young men
On this " Lugansk.Kommentarii "reports Lugansk regional organization in" Freedom. "
"According to an eyewitness, the cause of the quarrel, and the shooting was that the young men greeted each other" Glory to Ukraine! ". Two young guys (22-bit and 24-years) was killed and two others in serious condition in hospital ", - the press-service. recall that a few days ago near the checkpoint as a skirmish, which resulted in three deaths Human .
http://comments.ua/life/467302-luganshchine-chetireh-parney-rasstrelyali.html
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But new ones coming in, which are conveniently already pre-filled in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcyNGvbPGw
Looks like somebody voted 100,000 times before the vote was supposed to take place. Can somebody watch the video and read the ballots? I'd like to know what choices people have to vote on and what region these ballots are from.
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Looks like a staged photo op. Neat camera work. Everything laid out orderly including the bad guys. Maybe they got Steven Spielberg to direct it?
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But gun-toting,referendum-rigging gangsters are not innocents are they...and regarding "executions" you're speculating again,and not dealing in the facts as we know them and from what we can actually see.
This is assuming the video is genuine of course..after all we're talking Ukraine here..where many things are not as they seem,corruption and dishonesty being a way of life for many,with Russia no better.
And yet you prefer to slander the supposed bad morals of the western propaganda,when the video is about referendum rigging seperatists in Ukraine :rolleyes:
Seems to me some people on here are in self-denial at what is happening in Ukraine..seriously.
CB -whatever Ukrainians havebeen accused of pales into insignificance compare to the lies of the Kremlin,Putin & many of their Russian cohorts. Corrupt liars is fitting description.Have a look at the media lies being spewed out on an unprecedented scale-- it make the Russians the worlds champions of telling lies.
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Looks like a staged photo op. Neat camera work. Everything laid out orderly including the bad guys. Maybe they got Steven Spielberg to direct it?
Are you talking about the video? This thing went down before the election. If the ballots in the video doesn't match the ballots of the election in it's respective region, then the pro Russians can claim Kiev staged the video. If those ballots are actual ones used for Sundays elections, then it's clear the election is rigged based on the way a large number pre marked ballots are handled by 3 guys.
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Are you talking about the video? This thing went down before the election. If the ballots in the video doesn't match the ballots of the election in it's respective region, then the pro Russians can claim Kiev staged the video. If those ballots are actual ones used for Sundays elections, then it's clear the election is rigged based on the way a large number pre marked ballots are handled by 3 guys.
Yeah, that would be definitive proof and there is no way anyone could dispute that type of logic.
It isn't like anyone could have taken a copy of it before elections to make it look like it is rigged. Of course not, only Putin does things like that. Those guys were obviously Russian elite force judging by their uniforms.
You don't believe third party election monitors stating when elections are fair but you believe this stuff. You guys are too funny.
Never change otherwise my entertainment would be lost.
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...
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Yeah, that would be definitive proof and there is no way anyone could dispute that type of logic.
I would. If the official ballots waiting for the election differed from the ones in the video then how would we really know? Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. It can be the old switch-ah-roo 3 card Monti scam. Why would we trust any source over there?
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I would. If the official ballots waiting for the election differed from the ones in the video then how would we really know? Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. It can be the old switch-ah-roo 3 card Monti scam. Why would we trust any source over there?
It was sarcasm, Maxx. ;D There would be no way to tell if the elections where on the up and up unless there was an impartial 3rd party watching them. Even with a 3rd party involved, people like Billy won't agree if the vote didn't turn out the way they wanted.
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It was sarcasm, Maxx. ;D There would be no way to tell if the elections where on the up and up unless there was an impartial 3rd party watching them. Even with a 3rd party involved, people like Billy won't agree if the vote didn't turn out the way they wanted.
Now I get it. Take the "evidence" that agrees with your side and ignore all that doesn't. And these people get to vote?
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You don't believe third party election monitors stating when elections are fair but you believe this stuff.
When a third of the members of a group who monitors elections say something is wrong with the election, I don't accept the elections they just monitored. You are different.
The very monitors you embraced last presidential election was not invited to the referendum elections. I wonder why? Figure that one out.
A lot of smart people around the world, some of them world leaders, are dismissing the referendum elections. You can state your acceptance of the vote any time now instead of making fun of those who disagree with the referendum.
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I do admit Max that I agree with CB and Jay on Ukraine. But please explain why you are supporting Putin in this, why the Kiev government is illegitimate, what America is doing that is so wrong, I don't know why you think or feel this way.
Some of these turds want the Soviet Union back, is that what you want?
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Putin blogosphere reports American mercenaries killed in Slaviansk. According to ITAR-TASS, US refused to repatriate 13 bodies.
http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/5/11/686143.html
Thoughts?
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I do admit Max that I agree with CB and Jay on Ukraine. But please explain why you are supporting Putin in this, why the Kiev government is illegitimate, what America is doing that is so wrong, I don't know why you think or feel this way.
Some of these turds want the Soviet Union back, is that what you want?
I don't support Putin. I do see however where he is coming from. That is not the same thing. Think famous Chris Rock quote about O.J. Simpson illustrates:
So you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got another man driving around in his car and fucking his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he should have killed her... but I understand.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8TqhBIEbWA
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II am sorry. Could you explain your opinions more explicitly? I don't follow your analogy. You say you don't support Putin. Why? LFU, justme, doll, FT & GQBlues do. Why are you right and they are wrong in your opinion?
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It was sarcasm, Maxx. ;D There would be no way to tell if the elections where on the up and up unless there was an impartial 3rd party watching them. Even with a 3rd party involved, people like Billy won't agree if the vote didn't turn out the way they wanted.
Firstly, finding 'impartial 3rd party' these days is like stopping all the rivers from flowing into the sea. Remember that witty fable credited to Aesop - I'll drink the sea dry... and not a drop of water from elsewhere? :D
BTW, the international observers who validated the Crimean referendum hardly fall in 'the impartial third party' category. Rather, they represented 'committed to Russia' monitors.
Secondly, the conditions for outright fraud in the referendums where ultimate outcomes are never in doubt are created not on referendum day. For instance, the referendum being held today in eastern Ukraine is exploiting fears of the people from eastern Ukraine of the alleged fascists and ultra-nationalists taken over power in western Ukraine.
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Yeah, that would be definitive proof and there is no way anyone could dispute that type of logic.
It isn't like anyone could have taken a copy of it before elections to make it look like it is rigged. Of course not, only Putin does things like that. Those guys were obviously Russian elite force judging by their uniforms.
You don't believe third party election monitors stating when elections are fair but you believe this stuff. You guys are too funny.
Never change otherwise my entertainment would be lost.
:ROFL:
Hysterical, isn't it? It's pretty entertaining to watch actually....
It's akin to babushkas on a lazy Sunday evening upon a Soviet apartment footsteps gossiping.
Billy-Babush: Privet Chelsey-Babush! Did you hear the latest news in Ukraine?
Chelseay-Babush: Boje Moy, I do and it's terrible! I mean, how can Russia just take over territories like that? My country can never do such a thing! Never!"
Babush-H: Yes, I know what you mean. As a matter of fact, I think...ouch...I think, well, here read this article. It's exactly what I think. Can you believe it?"
Chelseay-Babush: " OMG! Does it still hurt you when you think, Bab-H?" You shouldn't drink cold drinks. It affects your toes."
Billy-B: Anyway, the Russian army already invaded yesterday, I know an army when I see one. They carry guns and bats! If they are elite, they also wear tennis shoes!"
Babush-H: "I agree Billy-Babush! It's here in this article. Here, you can read it!"
Chelseay-Babush: "You're such an expert, Billy-Babush. How can anyone deny this? Even Babush-H's article proves it. What's the term I'm thinking of when it is really, really official again?"
Billy-Babsuh: "It's called Non-Binding."
Babush-H: " Da! That's it! 'Non-binding'. You can read that in this article, too!"
Billy-Babush:" Now they're even trying to say the world is round. Bunch of stupid Putinistas! How can it be round when there's some *dissenting opinions* that it's actually flat!"
Chelseay-Babush: "Gosh, Billy-Babush! You're so smart! But what's that mean? *Dissenting opinions*"
Babush-H: " I think...ouch...I, I, I think...aaaw! You really wanna know what I think? Here, read this article!"
Chelseay-Babush: "Oh I see...it means it doesn't matter if anything is certified, validated and proven without a shadow of doubt, as long as there's dissenting opinions it can never be!"
Billy-Babush: "Yes, for example, if I threw this rock on your head and hit it, and it started bleeding really bad, as long as someone says it didn't hit your head then it means it really didn't hit your head."
Babush-H: " EXACTLY! That's how it is explained in the article I gave you to read yesterday. "
Chelseay-Babush: "I will never understand how no one else can be as smart as us. Glory to Yahoo!"
Biily-Babush, Babush-H, Chelseay-Babush: "GLORY TO YAHOO!"
Babush-H: " OK ladies...let's go and get some sunflower seeds in the market and split atoms this evening."
Billy-Babush: "Sounds good to me. Let's go..."
Lady-Babberius: "Guys, wait for me! Can I come? You guys keep leaving me behind. I have no friend!"
It's your classic MOBers, man. Entertaining, yes. Surprising? Hardly.
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You got talent!
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So Max, you declined an opportunity to explain your thoughts and opinions. Too bad. there legitimate critiques of US policy, legitimate interests Russia has in Ukraine. But instead we get the same garbage from the name-blame crowd. The same disrespect that we have come to expect here.
WSJ reports that 60% of Americans want to see America strong again. I can't wait until 2016 when Rand Paul joins his father as not the President.
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Wow GQBlues,,
If you had a Brain you'd be dangerous.
When someone starts likening MOBers to what's happening in Ukraine right now..sounds like that person has totally lost it.
Hey,seeing as how much you belittle guys going to Ukraine looking for a wife,you're probably hoping Russia will take over the country and shut all the agencies down..so that explains your support for Putler. ;
You just keep your head in the sand with your little fantasies..there's a good boy. :rolleyes:
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So Max, you declined an opportunity to explain your thoughts and opinions. Too bad. there legitimate critiques of US policy, legitimate interests Russia has in Ukraine. But instead we get the same garbage from the name-blame crowd. The same disrespect that we have come to expect here.
WSJ reports that 60% of Americans want to see America strong again. I can't wait until 2016 when Rand Paul joins his father as not the President.
I know your games
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The guy is a straight up loser. If he hates us so much, why is he even here?
There are babies with bloated bellies and flies in their eyes that are more humorous than this POG.
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The guy is a straight up loser. If he hates us so much, why is he even here?
There are babies with bloated bellies and flies in their eyes that are more humorous than this POG.
Are you referring to me? I don't hate any of you guys. I just think you guys got a case of war fever and want somebody to fight with so you stick us all into a group.
Why would you even think of babies with bloated bellies and flies in their eyes? That sounds sick. It should be obvious to anyone reading your post that you are the one with a great capacity for hatred.
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No, not you.
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Wow GQBlues,,
If you had a Brain you'd be dangerous.
You just keep your head in the sand with your little fantasies..there's a good boy. :rolleyes:
Given it is very clear that this fool is brain dead he may as well bury it!!
He has now joined with holocaust deniers,911 never happened,no one ever went to the moon conspiracists etc -- it says it all about these fools. :deadhorse:
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I am surprised that this vote went so well and had such a large number of participants. I’m sure it won’t be recognized internationally, but if nothing else it does seem to indicate that 10 of thousands, maybe millions of the people in these districts want out from under the current government in Kiev. I have not been buying into this being a case of “Paid Russian extremists” entering Ukraine to stir up trouble…while I think there is some of that element, it certainly appears that genuine Ukrainians want a change to more autonomy at a minimum… The big vote is in a couple weeks, hopefully this demonstration/vote can serve as an additional wakeup call and create an extreme urgency for the new leadership to act in a way that represents these peoples interests.
(http://s1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/mJ9fWhTYJdHlAuKhTDcgZA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTY0MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/ae5c8763749bda12530f6a706700c7ef.jpg)
Fathertime!
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So Max, you declined an opportunity to explain your thoughts and opinions. Too bad. there legitimate critiques of US policy, legitimate interests Russia has in Ukraine. But instead we get the same garbage from the name-blame crowd. The same disrespect that we have come to expect here.
You are in no position to whine about being disrespected. You have earned all of the disrespect that you have received. You have behaved dishonorably on many counts, which one would assume is exactly how you have conducted yourself in other aspects of your life.. Your position of war has been marginalized and rightfully so. When this is settled with an equable solution someday, you will be very disappointed.
Fathertime!
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CB & LT--- some of these same guys are so anti-American that they will seriously tell us that the moon landing was faked!! That 9/11 did not happen or that the US blew up the trade centre themselves!! In addition is some of the ludicrous denials of the reality in Ukraine in the last few months-- and if it did happen it was the US's doing!!
The funny thing is that the very same guys( with one exception) have generally trolled threads with insults and derogatory comments towards other posters in a personal way--it says it all about them.!! :) :wallbash:
One pattern I've noticed is the habit of demonizing a poster for stating reasoned opinions, counter to what others think. It is not just that the poster is incorrect/mistaken, it is that he is a 'putinist' or 'antiamerican' or some other drivel... And sometimes it comes from people who think they are 'enlightened'.
Extreme positions on both sides have been proven wrong, and I believe there will be a meeting somewhere in the middle, and that is fine as it will represent the people's will..... Those calling for US intervention, or war, or denying there is a large ukrainian base of population in the East that are genuinely up in arms, are on the extreme end..on the other hand, those that are calling for the first step to be annexation of e. ukraine to Russia, or for Russia to invade, are on the other extreme end.....imo.
Fathertime!
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In Donetsk miners voted for joining the Dnieper Ukraine for single and avoid bloodshed.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/u-dobropilli-prihilniki-dnr-hotili-psevdoreferendumom-povernuti-sposib-zhittya-do-revolyuciyi-348988.html
Quoting
"Referendums in the Donetsk region began yesterday morning at eight. Journalists TSN visited voting in Dobropillya - is the only region in the Donetsk region, which managed to keep the Ukrainian flags on buildings and avoid confrontation - said the plot TSN.Tyzhden . Just in the central area began two referendums at the same time: at the Palace of Culture - the "Donetsk People's Republic", but rather at the Executive Committee - of joining the Dnepropetrovsk region. Voting was open air. However, in a referendum on joining Dnepropetrovschiny boxes were transparent and sealed, and a referendum "DNR" - cardboard boxes. Some residents Dobropillya put therein newsletters and there and there. The miners argued that voting for a United Ukraine. Allegedly, the home must be only one. People want peace and quiet, to be happy and independent. They also do not want bloodshed in the Donbas. Among opponents of the square there were only controversy.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/u-dobropilli-prihilniki-dnr-hotili-psevdoreferendumom-povernuti-sposib-zhittya-do-revolyuciyi-348988.html
Any suggestion that these votes mean anything in the bigger picture is in the ludicrous category--like the Crimea-- totally meaningless vote counts.
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One pattern I've noticed is the habit of demonizing a poster for stating reasoned opinions, counter to what others think. It is not just that the poster is incorrect/mistaken, it is that he is a 'putinist' or 'antiamerican' or some other drivel... And sometimes it comes from people who think they are 'enlightened'.
Fathertime!
I think you will find I was staing a few facts-- check on what a few of your fellow frequent belligerant posters think about the issues I mentioned--there are in the seriously looney category.
Re 'enlightened"-- I am in no doubt that you are so far out of tune it is close to unbelievable that any sensible person could reach those conclusions .
For me--I have no interest in getting into yes it is/no it isn't drivel with such ridiculously closed minds-- eg the idea that this is about the USA--that assertion totally discredits millions of Ukrainians who revolted against corruption and cronyism.
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LOL!
Viagra prescription filled and nowhere to go.....!
:toocool:
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Re 'enlightened"-- I am in no doubt that you are so far out of tune it is close to unbelievable that any sensible person could reach those conclusions .
For me--I have no interest in getting into yes it is/no it isn't drivel with such ridiculously closed minds-- eg the idea that this is about the USA--that assertion totally discredits millions of Ukrainians who revolted against corruption and cronyism.
Being that you are very far from the USA, I think you are quite out of touch regarding the recent pattern regarding meddling in other countries affairs in recent decades, yes I do think we (the USA) did contribute to the Maiden demonstrations in some way. Does that discredit those people there? I don’t know about that, but to deny the USA had involvement on some level, I don’t think is reality.
You seem to be glamorizing the demonstrations when they supported the cause you liked…but now that there are counter demonstrations also with real people, you have completely downplayed that and attempted to act as if it is all a bunch of Russian paid spies. I don’t buy that at all. There are definitely Ukrainians on both sides of what is going on, and it is not for outside forces like USA/RUSSIA YOU/ME to say differently.
Fathertime!
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If there were 'millions' of voters would the results really already be known at this time? That is some quick counting of loose ballot papers if there really were that many voters....
As for the long lines at the polling stations, multiple different sources suggest there were very few polling stations, which of course would explain the queue's. Photographic evidence also suggests people voted more than once.
Yes, its no use to suggest nobody voted today. however, if you question the validity of the current government in Kiev and whether they can actually make policy, then surely you also have to question the validity of these self-appointed leaders who have called for the referendum and therefor question if they have the right to hold a referendum? Regardless of whether you think the current government is legit or not, surely a national election would remove any discussion and allow the country to move forward?
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Only trying on a few points-
-- The new government called an election as soon as it was possible to organise one.The intent was to give all Ukrainians a vote in the future. The fact is that the coalition government has instituted many reforms already that will hopefully be the basis for the future.
--- the confusion of many in eastern Ukraine due to the propaganda lies eg-- some believe that the Nazis are in control in Kiev and that they were coming to the east to kill Russian speakers-- so the net effect is they are opposed to their own Ukrainian military and Police.While this may well be very small as a percentage--it was enough for Russia to ferment into overt aggression.
-- the reality is-- all that could have been expressed at the ballot box-- other than for Russian interference
As for glamorising- at every stage I have abhorred any loss of life.The Ukrainian government and people have sought to avoid and minimise deaths and injuries.There are many examples of this--even in the Odessa fire-- many were saved from that building.That is in sharp contrast with the pro Rus side who have sought to kill to provoke wider violence-- all on Putin's agenda.
Above all else-- the outside interference of Russia in internal Ukrainian issues is at the heart of 99.9% of the problems. No Russian invasion and if Ukraine had been allowed to go to an election none of what has transpired would have happened.
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any referendum is illegal anyway ,
but its purpose no matter how illegal or rigged is to give legitimacy to putins call for them to have a bigger say in the outcome &to give some basis if he wishes to put troops there to protect them and help annexx them at a later date ,
I am surprised that this vote went so well and had such a large number of participants. I’m sure it won’t be recognized internationally, but if nothing else it does seem to indicate that 10 of thousands, maybe millions of the people in these districts want out from under the current government in Kiev.
FT
it is not at all surprising that after a min of 6 months of destabilisation of ukraine ,compounded with a blitz of conflicting media assertions especially the south /east that the local people are being convinced their gov in kiev wishes them harm and will further reduce their lifestyle and oppurtunitys
the thing is , at a guess 60% of the population in ukraine would have some experience of life in soviet times , as humans do we often look back on the past with rose coloured glasses , these people know life wasnt that fantastic, under soviet rule l, but it was stable !!! the gov did provide for them & they where protected , a lifetime of being washed with'' the west & america is bad '' added into the recipe ,combine alittle of their old soviet nostalgia with a huge dollop of russian tv propoganda , put some real live militia /self defence forces on the ground to take over cities , pay of local police etc .. this population or at least a reasonable amount of them over time with this reality going on around them , actually start to believe in it ,
then with events like oddessa and mariupol it becomes real
these people in ukraine are living under enormous emotionla stress every day every night , waiting for the invasion they are either told will come from kiev or save them from russia
think about it for a few minutes , not hard to understand under that mix why they are buying into putins chess game emotionaly , and then acting on it , hate has been whipped up here , where local differences 8 months ago where accepted generally
I have not been buying into this being a case of “Paid Russian extremists” entering Ukraine to stir up trouble…
they are there alright , and as you can see from the above there doing a great job for mr putin
it certainly appears that genuine Ukrainians want a change to more autonomy at a minimum… .
that is how it apears now in the s/east , yes , direct result from putins tactics on the ground there over the last 6 months or so
The big vote is in a couple weeks, hopefully this demonstration/vote can serve as an additional wakeup call and create an extreme urgency for the new leadership to act in a way that represents these peoples interests.
big question if this event will take place at all , and if it will be recognized
SX
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LOL!
Viagra prescription filled and nowhere to go.....!
:toocool:
Make sure you don't try to penny pinch and end up getting fake pills.
It's not worth in to your health to use fake meds just so to be able to bang some young fluffy one 15-20 years your junior.
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if you question the validity of the current government in Kiev and whether they can actually make policy, then surely you also have to question the validity of these self-appointed leaders who have called for the referendum and therefor question if they have the right to hold a referendum?
No sense talking this stuff to some people. You may be better off talking to a rock. A few posters here tried to use the constitution to prove Yanukovich, the thief, is the legitimate president and failed. When the constitution doesn't allow for these referendum votes and separation from Ukraine, they dismiss the constitution and ridicule those who don't support referendum elections.
Regardless of whether you think the current government is legit or not, surely a national election would remove any discussion and allow the country to move forward?
The problem is the east Ukrainians know they're in the minority and a national election wouldn't serve their interests. They previously enjoyed elections that installed pro Russian presidents. They know this time with the world watching, the gig is up. No country goes back to Russia after they leave Russia's influence.
What I don't understand is with Ukraine having such a crappy economy, why do east Ukrainians want another pro Russian president when neighboring nations who adopted Western style economies have great success? Deep down many know better and the results of the referendum vote will not be telling the truth.
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Make sure you don't try to penny pinch and end up getting fake pills.
It's not worth in to your health to use fake meds just so to be able to bang some young fluffy one 15-20 years your junior.
I wouldn't know as I don't really have any use for that stuff. But I'm not surprised you apparently do, LOL!
Dude, based on your experiences so far, you likely won't need any either...
Last Friday I went back to Kharkov for a WOVO trip to see a woman that I previously meet during my last trip in September.
After being taken to an apartment arranged by her, woman then left saying she had to go to work for a few hours on Saturday morning and will be back to see me after work. Around noon on Saturday I got a text from her saying that she got held up at work and will come later. The woman then dropped off the radar completely for the next 24 hours, not answering on Skype nor texting.
:P You really have a way with women, man!
...1) There was a period of about 3 weeks where she was totally uncontactable via phone calls 24/7. When I finally managed to get through to her via phone later on, her explanation was her phone was broken and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. Probably during that time she was with another guy fleecing him so too busy to answer my calls. Stupidly I said I will buy her a new phone when I return this trip....2) All her email replies were very short, usually less than a dozen words in total.
Funny guys like you do this all the time. When all else fail, send money, LOL...Why is that? Too old? Need to lose a lot of weight? Or did you fall high up from the ugly tree and hit every branch on your way down?
...In September I was on a VM trip to Kharkov. She was one of the women that I met back then. During the September trip I had two dinner dates with her.....I am scheduled in Kharkov for another 9 days so I'll try to salvage the rest of the trip by meeting some of Mila's ladies.
That was then, this is now...
The plan is to have initial meetings with women introduced by Mila and see how things go, rather than meeting agency girls....
So let me get this straight (LOL)...you already had 2 trips meeting a bunch of women and now you're on you 3rd trip to do so again. This time, you get to be hand-held (LOL). And you're packing 'fake' Viagra pills for your trip?
....Does that greatly limit the choice compared to picking from the agency catalogue? Sure it does. But it's better to not find a match and return home empty handed rather than to meet a time waster.
*picking from a catalog* ?!? LOL, really Dude? How does that work? Is it like reading a restaurant menu where you have appetizers, entrees and desserts and send your selection and hope the chef is in a good mood? Then when the food arrive, and in your case the women, they see you and silently say..'oh well, at least it'll be a free meal'.
You guys actually travel halfway around the world so you can *pick from a catalog* to date? What a whopper! Isn't that about as low as anyone can get?
Here's what I think..
Trip in real doubt now..
That's probably the best thing that ever happened to you in a very long time. Seriously. This ought to give you some time to think things over, man. I don't mind helping a bruddah out, you know. You have to ask and be honest with yourself...*what's wrong with *a man* who's already deep in the MOB and had already met so many women but still kept getting *egged*. You know it isn't money you're lacking because you already dangled that up with the last gal and you still got royally ditched...
Nah, it's gotta be something else and methinks it isn't the women, bro. LOL. Dude, that's gotta sux, eh?
I say, invest in yourself... ;)
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Although Putin pretended to ask pro Russians to delay the vote, a polling station was set up in Moscow to help Ukrainians get in their vote. That's very nice of Putin to help out in any way he can. I'm sure he'll help count the votes too.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27360146
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Gasp!!! You mean Putin's plea to delay the vote was just a propaganda / publicity stunt ?!?!!? :shock:
Glad at least some can see it for what it is.
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You know Putin scored six times on the hockey rink in Sochi.
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Post# 1419 - maybe 20 seconds to type up.
Post# 1421 - looks like that's at least 5-7 minutes work looking up past quotes & typing a response...
Guess who has too much time on his hands?
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sleepy cat,
it is far easier to just employ the ignore button with mr gwho ,
he is unfortunatly one of those people from his country who create a negative image the rest of the world stereotypes in the negative,
fortunatly he is in the minority in his own country , pretty sure he is actually related to andrew fi lol
SX
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but its purpose no matter how illegal or rigged is to give legitimacy to putins call for them to have a bigger say in the outcome &to give some basis if he wishes to put troops there to protect them and help annexx them at a later date ,
yes...i would say this is a possiblity if things don't stack up to Russia's liking.
any referendum is illegal anyway ,
FT
the thing is , at a guess 60% of the population in ukraine would have some experience of life in soviet times , as humans do we often look back on the past with rose coloured glasses , these people know life wasnt that fantastic, under soviet rule l, but it was stable !!! the gov did provide for them & they where protected , a lifetime of being washed with'' the west & america is bad '' added into the recipe ,combine alittle of their old soviet nostalgia with a huge dollop of russian tv propoganda , put some real live militia /self defence forces on the ground to take over cities , pay of local police etc .. this population or at least a reasonable amount of them over time with this reality going on around them , actually start to believe in it ,
then with events like oddessa and mariupol it becomes real
Well if the people are comfy living under the Soviets then we shouldn't be telling them that they can't! It may be propaganda they are hearing, and they may genuinely feel they have a better future by being closer to Russia. There appears to be quite a divide within the country. Perhaps that can change, although the E. Ukrainians would have to be convinced, not me or people here.
Although it is too early to tell if these are the only realistic options but IF the were, what would be best for Ukraine..?
1.living in a hopelessly divided country where there is constant bloodshed among competing groups with respective groups backed by the USA and Russia.
2 creating autonomous republics where parts of Ukraine can get cozy with Russia if that is what they want.
3. Divide Ukraine in two
4. Russia annexing eastern parts of Ukraine
IF they wind up being the options on the table, I would support options 2 and 3.
they are there alright , and as you can see from the above there doing a great job for mr putin
SX
SX I feel this point was unfair...this point was in response to a partial quote of mine...although if you had included the second half of the quote you would see that by only including part of my quote, it changed the meaning of what I said.
Fathertime!
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yes...i would say this is a possiblity if things don't stack up to Russia's liking.
Well if the people are comfy living under the Soviets then we shouldn't be telling them that they can't! It may be propaganda they are hearing, and they may genuinely feel they have a better future by being closer to Russia. There appears to be quite a divide within the country. Perhaps that can change, although the E. Ukrainians would have to be convinced, not me or people here.
Although it is too early to tell if these are the only realistic options but IF the were, what would be best for Ukraine..?
1.living in a hopelessly divided country where there is constant bloodshed among competing groups with respective groups backed by the USA and Russia.
2 creating autonomous republics where parts of Ukraine can get cozy with Russia if that is what they want.
3. Divide Ukraine in two
4. Russia annexing eastern parts of Ukraine
IF they wind up being the options on the table, I would support options 2 and 3.
The fact that you even throw this up shows how nieve you are. Ukrainians DO NOT WANT TO DIVIDE the country.
Th3e fact that there are some self interested groups is not unusual in any country. There is no reason that a small minority should be the prevailing voice-- or even a marjority in an area. You do not simply secede from a country. If you look at Ukrainian constitution--is it the right for ALL Uktaine to decide changes like that. That also applies to the Crimea btw.
I will repeat it--if you asked manmy people in then east a series of questions about situation-- it would illustrate many incorrect notions-- so based on that that look at alternatives.
The polls have shown all along-- and recently--that large numbers in the east want a united Ukraine.
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The fact that you even throw this up shows how nieve you are. Ukrainians DO NOT WANT TO DIVIDE the country.
Th3e fact that there are some self interested groups is not unusual in any country. There is no reason that a small minority should be the prevailing voice-- or even a marjority in an area. You do not simply secede from a country. If you look at Ukrainian constitution--is it the right for ALL Uktaine to decide changes like that. That also applies to the Crimea btw.
I will repeat it--if you asked manmy people in then east a series of questions about situation-- it would illustrate many incorrect notions-- so based on that that look at alternatives.
The polls have shown all along-- and recently--that large numbers in the east want a united Ukraine.
All rise, the Honorable Judge ‘Jay’ hath entered the thread. Kneel now, and speak not. His words are gospel. :rolleyes:
No Jay, you have been the naive one…with your constant shilling and the maudlin “Glory to Ukraine” bologna…whether you like it or not or choose to recognize it, there is more than one side to the story…you should really read up a little more…these sort of options are going to be on the table at some point.
Fathertime!
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sleepy cat,
it is far easier to just employ the ignore button with mr gwho ,
he is unfortunatly one of those people from his country who create a negative image the rest of the world stereotypes in the negative,
fortunatly he is in the minority in his own country , pretty sure he is actually related to andrew fi lol
SX
:shock:
Is English really your first language, sx? :P
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I know your games
Maxx, isn't funny how LT will call people names all over this forum and then accuse you of such. That is the type of people you are debating with.
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The fact that you even throw this up shows how nieveyou are....
Hhhmm ...lol! Do you want to buy another vowel? Now I know why you cut/paste articles. Is English your first language too like sx?
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Hhhmm ...lol! Do you want to buy another vowel? Now I know why you cut/paste articles. Is English your first language too like sx?
I thought he was calling FT his niece. :D
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All rise, the Honorable Judge ‘Jay’ hath entered the thread. Kneel now, and speak not. His words are gospel. :rolleyes:
No Jay, you have been the naive one…with your constant shilling and the maudlin “Glory to Ukraine” bologna…whether you like it or not or choose to recognize it, there is more than one side to the story…you should really read up a little more…these sort of options are going to be on the table at some point.
Fathertime!
FT, for the most part, I think most Ukrainians don't want the country split between Russia and EU. There are groups that have different opinions on where the country should head, but I believe majority still wants Ukraine as a whole.
Like I said previously, most of the people I met while I lived there would say they are Russians. That never meant they wanted to live under Russian rule. They just identified with being Russian at their core.
The numbskulls here didn't understand the ramification of what happened in Kiev and how it would spiral out of control. They would rather put blame on Putin while ignoring the fact that laws were broken in Kiev and those actions sent the country into chaos.
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FT, for the most part, I think most Ukrainians don't want the country split between Russia and EU. There are groups that have different opinions on where the country should head, but I believe majority still wants Ukraine as a whole.
Like I said previously, most of the people I met while I lived there would say they are Russians. That never meant they wanted to live under Russian rule. They just identified with being Russian at their core....
I agree with this. The impact of the coup have left a lot of Ukrainians (ethnic Russians) with no choice but react to the manner they're doing now. Desperate times, desperate measure. Thanks USA / EU!
Just as bad is the fact the rest of Ukraine's population is being played by the illegitimate government at the same time. Sad time for these folks.
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You guys actually travel halfway around the world so you can *pick from a catalog* to date? What a whopper! Isn't that about as low as anyone can get?
I can't tell you how many times I have seen men picking women out of catalogs while having dinner\lunch. One guy in Kiev was so big I was amazed he could fit in one chair.
I thought it was standard procedures with agencies.
"Ah yeah, I would like to start off this evening with the brunette and for the main course go with the blonde with double d's. For desert, hhmmm... maybe I will splurge with something spicy and get the redhead. "
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SX I feel this point was unfair...this point was in response to a partial quote of mine...although if you had included the second half of the quote you would see that by only including part of my quote, it changed the meaning of what I said.
Fathertime!
FT , fair point , ill concede it was my error , ;)
slowly you are coming around though lol
id agree with LFU ,that from all available independent evidence most in ukraine do not want to divide the country
this is being driven by vested interests
SX
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It is absurd to place any credence on any of the 'referendums"
Quoting-
Donetsk and Luhansk media reported that voting actually takes place under the barrel of the machine. Since each site are armed terrorists. In this case, the international community does not recognize extremist referendums in Eastern Ukraine. In particular, the U.S. has already said they would not recognize the vote . And the head of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly called psevdoreferendumy Donbas absurd . Along with this, the Donbas held a referendum on unification of Luhansk and Donetsk region of Dnipropetrovsk . It was also reported that the Donbas most people just vote for the union from Dnipropetrovsk and ignore the extremists
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/sumnivniy-referendum-shtovhaye-donbas-na-shlyah-krimu-el-pais-349024.html
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Is English really your first language, sx? :P
Oh no. The grammar police is here. RUN!!!
:shock: :shock: :shock:
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The observers and journalists reject the legitimacy this referendum. Their biggest complaint is that to count these votes, they had to count one per second. Or that the results had more than eligible voters. Or that they are on Rinat Akmetov's payroll.
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Although it is too early to tell if these are the only realistic options but IF the were, what would be best for Ukraine..?
1.living in a hopelessly divided country where there is constant bloodshed among competing groups with respective groups backed by the USA and Russia.
2 creating autonomous republics where parts of Ukraine can get cozy with Russia if that is what they want.
3. Divide Ukraine in two
4. Russia annexing eastern parts of Ukraine
IF they wind up being the options on the table, I would support options 2 and 3.
To be able to choose correctly, you have to look into point number 1 and check why it is the case that there is so much division. One can't help get the feeling the reason for the split is due to propaganda.
Surely the best option would be a united Ukraine free from interference and pressure from its neighbours? Those in western Ukraine clearly see the benefits of having closer ties to the west, as they see their neighbouring countries who have done so prosper economically and have less corruption. I have never heard anyone in the West say closer ties to the west means that they can no longer do business with the Russians.
I can fully understand why those in the East 'think' or 'believe' that closer ties to the West means no more trade with Russia, as every time Ukraine attempts to move closer to the west Russia cancels factory orders, threatens about the gas supplies etc. It is the Russians who seem to be saying you can either be closer to the West or you can do business with us, which leaves those in the East no option but to choose to stay away from closer ties to the West.
Hence division is created.
If the propaganda could stop and Russia stops making all the threats re orders (and thus jobs and income) should Ukraine move closer to the west, I sincerely doubt the country would be as divided or live in a constant bloodshed. Option 1 would be a united country instead of a divided country with bloodshed.
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Bombing in Nikolaev, at least 5 injured.
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Although Putin pretended to ask pro Russians to delay the vote, a polling station was set up in Moscow to help Ukrainians get in their vote. That's very nice of Putin to help out in any way he can. I'm sure he'll help count the votes too.
I managed to get a laugh out of the TV news tonight, a rarity when referring to Ukraine at the moment. There was a clip from the BBC report on the referendum, and it showed someone in Donetsk (you couldn't see their face) merrily ticking the "Yes" box for the option to secede - on at least six voting forms before the camera panned away. :ROFL:
All this after having shots fired over the heads and around the feet of those waiting in the queue - by what was described as an Army unit at one polling station, and separatists at another. "Of COURSE, Mr Observer, our referendum vote was free and fair! We didn't need to shoot anyone at all to get the rest of them to vote - many times!"
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What is going in Eastern Ukraine is terrorism. Bandits occupy the buildings of official authority using vandals, vagrants and paid mobs to wrap these shiny turds in the trappings of democracy. Anyone who disagrees with these mobsters gets beaten up. Those are the facts on the ground reported by journalists of every stripe and color. You can quibble, equivocate, or conflate all you want in order to confuse or distract others, but you do not have a grasp of the facts.
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FT , fair point , ill concede it was my error , ;)
slowly you are coming around though lol
id agree with LFU ,that from all available independent evidence most in ukraine do not want to divide the country
this is being driven by vested interests
SX
Hey SX,
I put dividing Ukraine into 2 as ONE of the potential options...at this time it appears to be unacceptable...if violence were to escalate and the new Ukraine govt later this month were to disallow more autonomy for those regions, the outcome of a divided Ukraine becomes a possibility....or getting annexed by Russia... That is one reason I hope the new leadership grants these regions more autonomy as it appears they desire...if they don't i believe the consequences will be long lasting and bloody.
I think there is a reasonable chance the new government WILL grant the regions the autonomy they seem to want and that has a chance to diffuse a lot of what is going on. Although if the USA tries to financially pressure the new leadership NOT to make concessions, and they choose not to, then it will be messy....of course it goes without saying that this is all conjecture and my opinion.
Fathertime!
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Hey SX,
I put dividing Ukraine into 2 as ONE of the potential options...at this time it appears to be unacceptable...if violence were to escalate and the new Ukraine govt later this month were to disallow more autonomy for those regions, the outcome of a divided Ukraine becomes a possibility....or getting annexed by Russia... That is one reason I hope the new leadership grants these regions more autonomy as it appears they desire...if they don't i believe the consequences will be long lasting and bloody.
I think there is a reasonable chance the new government WILL grant the regions the autonomy they seem to want and that has a chance to diffuse a lot of what is going on. Although if the USA tries to financially pressure the new leadership NOT to make concessions, and they choose not to, then it will be messy....of course it goes without saying that this is all conjecture and my opinion.
Fathertime!
Wishful thinking, its already too late for that. The separatists have already rolled out the red carpet for Putin and asked to be made part of Russia.
Care to rethink your ideas?
Edited to ask: Also convenient that a few days after it has been reported that Russia has troops with UN peacekeeping colors ready at the border the separatists have not asked for Russian military intervention, but that a peacekeeping force may be in order.... Imagine the confusion when russia sends those troops into Donetsk...
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I hope the new leadership grants these regions more autonomy as it appears they desire...if they don't i believe the consequences will be long lasting and bloody.
The intern government from the very beginning has already offered all areas of Ukraine more autonomy but pro Russians want much more so that they can have Russia annex them.
In other news, Russia is collecting signatures in Moldova for guess what? Maybe Russia can send high level authorities to America too to get some signatures and promote secession? Next Presidential election Putin could set up some polling stations in Moscow and help us elect our next President. I think Obama will get a third term with Putin's help.
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pm-warns-moldova-border-incident-144143096.html
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Wishful thinking, its already too late for that. The separatists have already rolled out the red carpet for Putin and asked to be made part of Russia.
Care to rethink your ideas?
What in particular is there to rethink? I see the separatists would like for Russia to annex them, but Russia has not indicated they are interested in another annex at this time. They obviously have been given the pretext, nevertheless they don't appear too interested in occupying.
Personally I don't believe the vote is legitimate, but it might serve a symbolic purpose as it appears to demonstrate a significant % of the population in these regions don't feel represented and want drastic change. A lot of what is read into the outcome will depend on just what % of the Ukrainians are truly up in arms. Some say it is actually very few. I think it is a significant %.
Fatherime!
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Next Presidential election Putin could set up some polling stations in Moscow and help us elect our next President. I think Obama will get a third term with Putin's help.
Ha! That was a good one. I can imagine Putin campaigning for Obama
Fathertime!
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Oh no. The grammar police is here. RUN!!!
Running is obviously what the women do when they finally looked at you...
Besides, grammar is the least of this sheepherder's problem. For someone whose first language is English, I'm still trying to figure out what this rambling was about...
...
he is unfortunatly one of those people from his country who create a negative image the rest of the world stereotypes in the negative,
fortunatly he is in the minority in his own country , pretty sure he is actually related to andrew fi lol
SX
Talk about MOBer supreme, eh? He's almost at your level, LOL. Almost. At least he apparently netted himself a 'woman' already.
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LOL. I just read this in the Monday morning comedy section....
"The so-called referenda in ... parts of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions were illegal and we do not recognize the outcome," E.U. foreign policy chief said. "Those who organized the referenda have no democratic legitimacy."..
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/eu-ukraine-refuse-accept-results-illegal-referendum-n102816
Pretty hysterical coming from someone who is supporting an illegitimate government, an illegal coup, interference in another country's affairs, obstructing investigation of mass murder, financing terrorism, etc...
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Spelunking to new lows . . . a pimp complaining about his clients and more comments from the unfunny man.
There are several sources of legitimacy: morality, majority, golden rule & the rule of the gun.
Gazprom to cut Ukraine & Europe off breaking . . . glad Obama is blocking Keystone.
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USA/EU acts of terrorism (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/11/ukrainian-donetsk-shooting_n_5305984.html)
"...The video, shot by someone at the scene of the confrontation, has been authenticated based on accounts by AP journalists at the site and was consistent with AP's own reporting on what happened...."
tsk, tsk, tsk
:thumbsdown:
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USA! USA! USA! USA!
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USA/EU acts of terrorism (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/11/ukrainian-donetsk-shooting_n_5305984.html)
"...The video, shot by someone at the scene of the confrontation, has been authenticated based on accounts by AP journalists at the site and was consistent with AP's own reporting on what happened...."
I thought you were against western media propaganda? Read the article. the AP had journalists and a photographer at the scene as witnesses. That's it! Isn't it strange the AP doesn't have any film or photography of what happened? They rely on RT(Russia Today) news, who plastered numerous videos on Youtube and Russian state run media, to get the meat of the story. RT video below.
Based off other articles on the net, the Ukrainian National Guard are the alleged gunman based off a question someone asked one gunman of their identity. If the Ukrainian government authorized this and really wanted to shoot voters in order to stop the referendum vote, wouldn't it make sense to send the military to every poll station?
In America when bullets start flying, Americans go scattering. In east Ukraine, the brave citizens there stay in line. All throughout the crisis we've seen armed pro Russian militia take over government buildings in order to set up this vote. Now it's the BIG day, they disappear and a few Ukrainian National Guardsmen are able take the building back without anybody shooting at them. The Ukrainian army has struggled to gain control of the situation and getting those buildings back but a few National Guardsmen shows how easily it's done. Things that make you go "Hmmmmm".
Anyway, this and other videos of what happened there are very counter productive to what Ukraine's intern government is trying to do, will promote civil war and get Putin more support from Russian citizens to get involved in Ukraine. Regardless who's at fault for the deaths, this hurts Ukraine and Putin is going to run with the story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU3SD6oQ7KE
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All throughout the crisis we've seen armed pro Russian militia take over government buildings in order to set up this vote. Now it's the BIG day, they disappear and a few Ukrainian National Guardsmen are able take the building back without anybody shooting at them. The Ukrainian army has struggled to gain control of the situation and getting those buildings back but a few National Guardsmen shows how easily it's done. Things that make you go "Hmmmmm".
They did need people to go stand in queue's for the polling stations. Or maybe they all went to vote at the same time?
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EU-US terrorism?
Is the shooter an American or member or the EU?
No. Financed then?
Got proof?
Was the shots fired in self defense?
Don't know.
Hmm. OK. They hate America so much but don't leave . . .
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LOL. Here we go again....
The article read:
"...has been authenticated based on accounts by AP journalists at the site and was consistent with AP's own (OWN) reporting on what happened...."
To which, Mr. CLOD said....
...Isn't it strange the AP doesn't have any film or photography of what happened? ...
No. Not really.
Their journalists were on the scene and reported (and authenticated) events taking place. LOL. Is this another of your *non-binding*, *dissenting opinion* episodes?
LOL.
USA! USA! USA!
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...Got proof?...
Got friend? :P
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We interrupt this babble..........For those less experienced fellows who feel unnecessarily criticized by someone with years of experience, keep in mind what RW say about jokes, "In every joke there is some truth." Examine any criticism here for any applicability. If applicable, even if barely so, try to improve. Some RW may appreciate it.
Maybe one day you can turn the RWD babble and criticism into banter. Mission Impossible perhaps because that requires parties to have a SOH and a friendly nature.
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I
Where are all these new products from Russia? Crimeans, those that actually live there want to know.
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Their journalists were on the scene and reported (and authenticated) events taking place.
So? Shooting and deaths were verified during a referendum voting but did you read the part "The bloodshed in the town of Krasnoarmeisk occurred hours after dozens of armed men shut down voting in a referendum on sovereignty for the region. One of them identified the group as being national guardsmen.?"
The AP is reporting what one guy heard from one of the guys in uniform as to their identity. The AP verified the events, not who did it, but you are already figuring the West is behind this shooting and labeling them terrorists.
Check your PM box. You should be getting an invitation any day now from Putin to join his propaganda team. You're good at it because you actually believe what your saying.
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So? blah, blah, blah...
So it IS another of your episodes... :rolleyes:
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I
Where are all these new products from Russia? Crimeans, those that actually live there want to know.
There are two possibilities:
Despite Putin's freakish strength and conditioning he has not yet finished building that bridge to Crimea from the Russian mainland or ruble's are not (yet) being accepted at the Ukrainian borders to allow goods through before the papers have been checked by 10.000 civil servants to make sure they are filled in correctly.
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Another piece from your article GQ:
The video, shot by someone at the scene of the confrontation, has been authenticated based on accounts by AP journalists at the site and was consistent with AP's own reporting on what happened.
GQ, explain to us why AP journalists at the scene have nothing to record the events with but pen and paper and have to rely on other people to film the events?
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If USA citizens are so frightened of Russia they're afraid to honour their agreement with Ukraine,regarding Ukraine giving up it's Nuclear weapons,then what's the point in the USA having all it's military strength.?
It's highly unlikely anyone will attack USA with all the nuclear missiles at it's disposal,so why not just disband the vast majority of fleets,Air-force and troops..they're not needed...just a waste of taxpayers money.
The same applies to the UK.
Then we can all let Putin do what he wants..oh hang- on he does that anyway.
The UK is not scared of Putin, but, they are scared to death all those Russian oligarchs will leave londongrad and take their billions with them leaving the high end property market in tatters, bond street on the verge of collapse etc. It would ruin the whole picture they are painting of the economy improving just in time for the next elections.
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Another piece from your article GQ:
The video, shot by someone at the scene of the confrontation, has been authenticated based on accounts by AP journalists at the site and was consistent with AP's own reporting on what happened.
GQ, explain to us why AP journalists at the scene have nothing to record the events with but pen and paper and have to rely on other people to film the events?
Try and show the readers you can read. I am still holding a bit of faith in you since you're at least an 'American'. But man, you sure are doing a great job being a lump.
Understand the differences between *pen* *paper* *camera*, then understand what the word *journalist* means.
Ah heck, let me help a bruddah out on the latter:
JOURNALIST defined:
noun
... a person who writes for newspapers or magazines or prepares news to be broadcast on radio or television.
synonyms reporter, correspondent, columnist, writer, commentator, reviewer, etc...
Now, you won't find *video, pictures, photography, photos* in neither the definition or in any of its synonyms right? Why do you think that is? Now, re-read the excerpt from the article you just quoted...
Do you understand now?
Sheeesh! You guys definitely make it soooo easy for me. Welcome to the MOB!
USA! USA! USA!
Yohan, weren't you bragging to us that you were an 'honor student' in school? Did that happen to be a school for the impaired? >:(
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There are two possibilities:
Despite Putin's freakish strength and conditioning he has not yet finished building that bridge to Crimea from the Russian mainland or ruble's are not (yet) being accepted at the Ukrainian borders to allow goods through before the papers have been checked by 10.000 civil servants to make sure they are filled in correctly.
More US-EU terrorism win win
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Off topic and purely my opinion, but if you are going to quote someone actually quote them. Selectively edited is OK, but altering what they said? C'mon, any one with a moral compass obtained from a box of Cracker Jacks© knows that is just plain wrong.
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Besides, grammar is the least of this sheepherder's problem.
Get with the times bro and do some research. Ask anyone and they'll tell you that 'sheep jokes' are only applicable to New Zealanders, not Aussies.
Talk about MOBer supreme, eh?
Now how can we possibly ever hope to compete with a veteran MOBer such as yourself, someone who has reached the highest pinnacle of MOBerism. After all we along with the rest of the simpletons on this board, are only here to receive your daily golden words of wisdom. :)
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JOURNALIST defined:
noun
... a person who writes for newspapers or magazines or prepares news to be broadcast on radio or television.
How can a journalist prepare a story to be broadcast on tv without photos and video? Your article also stated there was a photographer there who witnessed the shooting and with today's technology, cameras have video mode. Even mobile phones can take video. Maybe the team of journalists and photographers were not allowed to shoot video because they may catch something not supposed to be seen? Less than a week ago pro Russians declared war on the media.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/separatists-in-eastern-ukraine-target-journalists-in-all-out-information-war/2014/05/06/d8270ba6-5f83-4b9a-9ebe-a29ba95823e1_story.html
Here's a site that's asking for help identifying the shooters. The site claims there's no National Guard unit in Krasnoarmeisk and the Unit Dnepr, which was the one the shooters were allegedly from, took no part and the Ukrainian authorities denied they were there. Unit Dnepr is a special forces unit. Look at the photos in the link below and the previous youtube video I provided and try and tell me these guys are special forces quality.
http://inforesist.org/battalion-dnepr-was-not-in-krasnoarmeisk-help-to-identify-the-shooters/?lang=en
Now if it's found out Putin was behind this, will you take back your America created this terrorism and criticize Russia? Probably not, if Russia was behind it, it's okay if people die by their hands because America started this. Right?
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Get with the times bro and do some research. Ask anyone and they'll tell you that 'sheep jokes' are only applicable to New Zealanders, not Aussies...
Who said I was joking?
...Now how can we possibly ever hope to compete with a veteran MOBer such as yourself, someone who has reached the highest pinnacle of MOBerism. After all we along with the rest of the simpletons on this board, are only here to receive your daily golden words of wisdom.
Obviously you missed my wonderful description of an MOBer...someone like you typifies one. No, change that, epitomizes one.
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...How can a journalist prepare a story to be broadcast on tv without photos and video?...blah...
:rolleyes:
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Get with the times bro and do some research. Ask anyone and they'll tell you that 'sheep jokes' are only applicable to New Zealanders, not Aussies.
You won't find any New Zealanders that believe that! :o
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Hey GQ, take me off your blocked list and I'll send you a PM on BillyB and LadyT or I might have to start a thread entitled "PM to GQ." :D
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[...has been authenticated based on accounts by AP journalists at the site and was consistent with AP's own (OWN) reporting on what happened...."/quote]
All that was authenticated was that the video(one showing man approaching and continuing to approach armed men, getting shot)
It is only about the events on the video clip. Who is who and from where have nothing to do with the authenticity of the video clip.
IE.......The video clip is not a fake.
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Obviously you missed my wonderful description of an MOBer...
Sorry mate, I don't really have the time to dig through the 5000+ classy posts of yours to look for that description that you are referring to.
Maybe you can repost that and also share with the forum members here your personal journey in looking for a FSUW to show how the MOBer tag doesn't apply to you?
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Hey GQ, take me off your blocked list and I'll send you a PM on BillyB and LadyT or I might have to start a thread entitled "PM to GQ." :D
Hey Maxx, I'm thrilled to be on your mind but don't be shy on what you have to say. Gossip away.
Are you still on GQ's blocked list? I quoted you so he can now read your message. You can thank me later. After all the fighting and name calling you two did in the past, I'm glad you both found something to agree on and get back on speaking terms.
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I was reading today that ironically the threat of sanctions has contributed to the rise of certain commodities that Russia exports. For example Palladium, has skyrocketed in price to some of the near the highest since 2001 which was an all time high. So in that respect, Russia has benefited from the higher price to this point.
They sit on 40% of the world's Palladium.
Fathertime!
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change of thought on the putin chess game
he may decide he does not need to invade , highly possible given the results of his tactics so far
below
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/05/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-idUSBREA440TI20140505
SX
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change of thought on the putin chess game
he may decide he does not need to invade , highly possible given the results of his tactics so far
below
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/05/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-idUSBREA440TI20140505 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/05/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-idUSBREA440TI20140505)
SX
it looks like the General is coming around to the viewpoint that I've been strongly holding regarding those Russian troops...I never thought they were a serious invasion force as I did not feel that option was EVER what the Russian's intentions were. At this point in history they will only be occupiers as a last resort.
I continue to hold that there won't be any invasion as the sides will hammer out a solution....BUT if Ukraine permits western interference to the point where a solution can not be reached then I believe Russia will act with all it's might in Ukraine....although I don't see that happening because reasonable heads will prevail....it certainly is in Ukraine's best interests to avoid war on their turf and that alone should be enough...In addition, Obama has no mandate from America to overstep on this issue, so he won't meddle much more either...imo
Fathertime!
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Hey Maxx, I'm thrilled to be on your mind but don't be shy on what you have to say. Gossip away.
Are you still on GQ's blocked list? I quoted you so he can now read your message. You can thank me later. After all the fighting and name calling you two did in the past, I'm glad you both found something to agree on and get back on speaking terms.
BillyB, EVERYONE is on GQs blocked list. Just try and send him a PM, anyone?
I was going send him some PMs on the meaning of "bruddahood" and being nice to you. That though you and LordT are wrong he should avoid riling you guys up too much. Someday you guys might become to him how Matteo is to me, a little brother……… Nah! 8) LOL Seriously he's a good guy.
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I was reading today that ironically the threat of sanctions has contributed to the rise of certain commodities that Russia exports.
Imports aren't doing too bad either. France just sold Russia a few warships.
http://news.yahoo.com/france-wont-cancel-warship-deal-russia-sources-091756532--finance.html
change of thought on the putin chess game
Word from Kremlin is they do not intend to annex. They just want dialogue with Ukraine.
http://news.yahoo.com/kremlin-hopes-dialogue-ukraine-vote-082255849.html;_ylt=AwrSbmrXkHFT2goAD6FXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0OWFlYm5tBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQxOV8x
For anybody coming in late, here's a description of the referendum vote in the article below. There are some videos on the internet showing some people submitting multiple ballots, there were lots of photocopied ballots, and very few voting stations. Only 4 in the city of Mariupol that has a population of half a million. How does 4 voting stations in a city can handle a few hundred thousand voters in less than a day is anybody's guess?
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/ukraine-moves-closer-civil-war-after-flawed-referendum-n103036
BillyB, EVERYONE is on GQs blocked list. Just try and send him a PM, anyone?
We're all on his sh!t list? That's not very nice. Hopefully one day he'll deem one of us MOB'rs worthy enough to upgrade to the not so sh!tty list.
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Shooting in Krasnoarmeisk by Ukrainian "National Guard"
The AP is a credible news agency. The AP report including one photo:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_SHOOTING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
I viewed a few Youtube videos. The first shot appears to be fired in the air, then at least 20-30 shots were fired.
The videos show at least two different people in civilian clothing on the ground with severe wounds. One is bleeding from the leg and the other is motionless and apparently dead. The motionless man has blood on his upper back as if he were shot in the back. It is the same person as in the AP photo.
The footage of "National Guard" individuals is brief. It appears they are members of the neo-Nazi group and not official Ukrainian military. America's National Guard is composed of reserve US military forces. So the term "national ghuardsmen" is misleading.
I do not believe this is anything equivalent to America's tragic Kent State shooting.
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People should read that article SX posted. The superpowers have agrees to a proxy war.
On the forum side, FT IMHO remains the most articulate of the Putinistas. Though this is not to excuses his numerous faults. He is the least loathsome but most dangerous. Though most of us see him for what he is, a jaundiced America hater and Putin cheerleaders apologist. His distorted perspective and his pride poison his analysis and contribute to his overall obtuseness.
The indigenous Putinistas are pardonable because they are in or were influenced by life in an unfree community. The Western Putin lovers are unpardonable for the opposing reason.
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Shooting in Krasnoarmeisk by Ukrainian "National Guard"
You're coming in late on this story. GQ first brought it up as an act of terrorism by America and EU on page 59 Post #1453. I blew a hole in his theory. Here's a site asking for help on finding out who the shooters were.
http://inforesist.org/battalion-dnepr-was-not-in-krasnoarmeisk-help-to-identify-the-shooters/?lang=en
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Imports aren't doing too bad either. France just sold Russia a few warships.
http://news.yahoo.com/france-wont-cancel-warship-deal-russia-sources-091756532--finance.html (http://news.yahoo.com/france-wont-cancel-warship-deal-russia-sources-091756532--finance.html)
Hey Billy,
I read this too, it just goes to show what a 'panic' most of Europe is over the situation in Ukraine.
Imports aren't doing too bad either. France just sold Russia a few warships.
http://news.yahoo.com/france-wont-cancel-warship-deal-russia-sources-091756532--finance.html (http://news.yahoo.com/france-wont-cancel-warship-deal-russia-sources-091756532--finance.html)
Word from Kremlin is they do not intend to annex. They just want dialogue with Ukraine.
[/size][size=78%][/size]
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]Yup, and I think undoubtedly when/if the discussion occurs, it will be what the terms will be for the newly semi-autonomous regions within Ukraine.[size=78%][/size] [size=78%]
People should read that article SX posted. The superpowers have agrees to a proxy war.
On the forum side, FT IMHO remains the most articulate of the Putinistas. Though this is not to excuses his numerous faults. He is the least loathsome but most dangerous. Though most of us see him for what he is, a jaundiced America hater and Putin cheerleaders apologist. His distorted perspective and his pride poison his analysis and contribute to his overall obtuseness.
The indigenous Putinistas are pardonable because they are in or were influenced by life in an unfree community. The Western Putin lovers are unpardonable for the opposing reason.
In addition to trying a little too hard to prove your 'intelligence', you are incorrect as usual, as much as you would enjoy it, the superpowers have NOT agreed to a proxy war at this time.
It has been interesting to watch hysterics from LadyT...numerous times he has been ready to panic and get a lot of other people’s children killed. Thankfully his unsteady hand and viewpoints were never under any consideration, and he has been marginalized and dishonored by all sides….as it should be…
[/size]Fathertime! [size=78%][/size] [size=78%]
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On the forum side, FT IMHO remains the most articulate of the Putinistas. Though this is not to excuses his numerous faults. He is the least loathsome but most dangerous. Though most of us see him for what he is, a jaundiced America hater and Putin cheerleaders apologist. His distorted perspective and his pride poison his analysis and contribute to his overall obtuseness.
I know he has upset many on here and I didn't like his win-win slogan. However he does bring to the table what I consider the average American viewpoint. I don't see his as dangerous....I just see him expressing his opinion. He also usually does it without to many personal attacks.
Besides he is needed for opposing discussion. What if we all agreed? A lot less info would be brought to the table. Many of it is just to prove him wrong......but I like to read and watch most of it.
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People should read that article SX posted. The superpowers have agrees to a proxy war.
On the forum side, FT IMHO remains the most articulate of the Putinistas. Though this is not to excuses his numerous faults. He is the least loathsome but most dangerous. Though most of us see him for what he is, a jaundiced America hater and Putin cheerleaders apologist. His distorted perspective and his pride poison his analysis and contribute to his overall obtuseness.
The indigenous Putinistas are pardonable because they are in or were influenced by life in an unfree community. The Western Putin lovers are unpardonable for the opposing reason.
My goodness.. you are starting to sound like a Salem preacher on a witch hunt.
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I know he has upset many on here and I didn't like his win-win slogan. However he does bring to the table what I consider the average American viewpoint. I don't see his as dangerous....I just see him expressing his opinion. He also usually does it without to many personal attacks.
Besides he is needed for opposing discussion. What if we all agreed? A lot less info would be brought to the table. Many of it is just to prove him wrong......but I like to read and watch most of it.
LD-- my intent is to be high on supported information and not inane conclusions based on opinion from the fringe of reality. I realised long ago it was a total waste of time attempting to tell some people anything about anything-=- so far off the planet are some it is a waste of energy.
On the positive side--I am well aware that many do follow links to read-- and any sane person would reach a reasonable conclusion-- and not of the 1% kind!!
Here are some more interesting links
"Kings of the East" willing to lose millions for the destabilization of the situation in the east, not to lose even more.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/groshi/ahmetov-stvoryuye-armiyu-separatistiv-iz-robitnikiv-a-firtash-zamorozhuye-virobnictvo-zaradi-agresiyi-349254.html
The oligarchs in eastern Ukraine are pushing workers to their factories separatism.
Akhmetov forcibly writes the ranks of separatists workers their plants The most influential oligarchs eastern region of Ukraine one jump ahead of the one to win the favor of the President of Russia. Yesterday the leader of the separatists in Donetsk Paul Gybarev openly voiced what everyone guessed long ago. "It turned out that two-thirds of the activists are dependent oligarch Rinat Akhmetov. A very small group of people loyal to the idea, but it still took the money. Took all money", - said Gybarev.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/groshi/ahmetov-stvoryuye-armiyu-separatistiv-iz-robitnikiv-a-firtash-zamorozhuye-virobnictvo-zaradi-agresiyi-349254.html
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Imports aren't doing too bad either. France just sold Russia a few warships.
''With adequate profit, capital is very bold... 100 percent will make it ready to trample on all human laws; 300 percent, and there is not a crime at which it will scruple, nor a risk it will not run, even to the chance of its owner being hanged''
Thomas Joseph Dunning, ''Trades' unions and strikes: their philosophy and intention'', 1860
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You're coming in late on this story.
No. I simply did not quote either you or GQ as I did not want to be party to bickering.
I was intrigued by the term National Guardsmen, thinking it was another Kent State, a pivotal tragedy in my youth. The AP reference gives credence.
So I researched it. I believe the AP did an incomplete job of reporting this event. Hopefully the responsible AP bureau will report more.
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LD-- my intent is to be high on supported information and not inane conclusions based on opinion from the fringe of reality. I realised long ago it was a total waste of time attempting to tell some people anything about anything-=- so far off the planet are some it is a waste of energy.
On the positive side--I am well aware that many do follow links to read-- and any sane person would reach a reasonable conclusion-- and not of the 1% kind!!
I believe you have failed miserably in your intent then….most of what you post is blatantly biased articles of which many of the conclusions posted have been entirely incorrect. Your inability to recognize that there is two sides to the story has tainted nearly all of which you have said and discredited your intolerant opinion.. What has happened in Ukraine will likely end up settled in a way that you will be dissatisfied with, but thankfully the ideas you support have little traction.
I know he has upset many on here and I didn't like his win-win slogan. However he does bring to the table what I consider the average American viewpoint. I don't see his as dangerous....I just see him expressing his opinion. He also usually does it without to many personal attacks.
Besides he is needed for opposing discussion. What if we all agreed? A lot less info would be brought to the table. Many of it is just to prove him wrong......but I like to read and watch most of it.
Hey Lonedrake, I think the average American doesn’t care very much at all about what is happening in Ukraine. When I bring the subject up to somebody that does care, the conclusion is almost always, for us to mind our own business.
I'm ok with 'upsetting' the guys that want to see intense US involvement. Some that purport to support democracy/freedom would just LOVE to silence a sensible opposing viewpoint...that isn't going to happen.
Fathertime!
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''With adequate profit, capital is very bold... 100 percent will make it ready to trample on all human laws; 300 percent, and there is not a crime at which it will scruple, nor a risk it will not run, even to the chance of its owner being hanged''
Thomas Joseph Dunning, ''Trades' unions and strikes: their philosophy and intention'', 1860
Profit and keeping economies healthy are things that prevent the West from using any harsh sanctions against Russia and may in the end let Russia have half or all of Ukraine. America put sanctions on Iran in the 90's only to watch Europe increase business with them. Same can happen with Russia so if Obama learned a lesson, don't try to place anymore sanctions on a country than what their allies are willing to do. That approach has serious flaws when trying to get a nation and/or it's leader to alter its/his behavior.
Russia can fight back sanctions. The more mayhem they create in the world, the price of resources go up, especially oil, which in turn delivers them profit. They can encourage Iran and N Korea to cause mayhem to help out.
Here's a good article that just came out describing why sanctions never work.
http://news.yahoo.com/why-aren-t-sanctions-stopping-putin-094500386--politics.html
Hopefully the responsible AP bureau will report more.
I hope so too. Guys like the ones in Krasnoarmeisk running around loose and shooting civilians will help speed Ukraine towards civil war. I like to know which side they're on.
Here's another shooting of a civilian today near Krasnoarmeisk by armed men.
http://inforesist.org/in-krasnoarmeisk-unidentified-persons-fired-at-a-bus-with-miners/?lang=en
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You're coming in late on this story. GQ first brought it up as an act of terrorism by America and EU on page 59 Post #1453. I blew a hole in his theory....
LOL. *Blew a hole in it?* I made you look like an idiot for asking why journalist didn't carry cameras..LOL! Your display for having difficulties understanding what you're reading is very telling. 'Journalist, non-binding, dissenting opinions, the list goes on...
They make you look like an idiot at RUA, and I'm making you look like an idiot here.
You think Associated Press is part of Putin's propaganda, then dig yourself that silly hole even more.
It wasn't a *theory*, again look for proper definition of words before commenting on it.
For starters, look up the word 'clod'...
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...I was intrigued by the term National Guardsmen...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine
Національна гвардія України, "Natsionalna gvardiya Ukrayini" (NGU)
Reformation
...In 2014 the reformed force was to be created partially on the basis of the Internal Troops of Ukraine, with plans for militias & armed wings from certain of Ukraine's political parties and organisations, including the Euromaidan movement, to be also incorporated into it. However those plans have run into resistance from at least some of the latter, who do not wish to give up their weapons or otherwise subordinate themselves to government control. Direct recruitment from military academies is also intended. On March 16, the Yatsenyuk government announced plans for the recruitment of 10,000 people within the next 15 days for the National Guard. Individual volunteers are also being accepted....
Sounds a lot like an army-for-hire to me.
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Hey GQ, take me off your blocked list and I'll send you a PM on BillyB and LadyT or I might have to start a thread entitled "PM to GQ." :D
Sorry maxx...I have my reasons so don't take it personally. :(
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Sorry mate, I don't really have the time to dig through the 5000+ classy posts of yours to look for that description that you are referring to.
Maybe you can repost that and also share with the forum members here your personal journey in looking for a FSUW to show how the MOBer tag doesn't apply to you?
LOL. I wonder why the heck will *I* even waste my time telling my story to any man whose experience with women included getting ignored, ditched, hid from, ran away from, etc...and instead of coming to his senses and accepting reality, he instead offer them gifts and money like stooge for such experiences.
Loser is as loser does.
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I hope so too. Guys like the ones in Krasnoarmeisk running around loose and shooting civilians will help speed Ukraine towards civil war.
Sure looks like civil war has already begun.
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LOL. I wonder why the heck will *I* even waste my time telling my story
That's coming from someone with 5000+ posts.
Touchy are we?
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That's coming from someone with 5000+ posts.
Touchy are we?
Nope. Life's been good to me, man...I know this isn't the same for everyone, but...I'm glad for it to be me.
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Sure looks like civil war has already begun.
My take would be "on the verge" of civil war. Remove the Russian fomenting and you'd be left with highly charged political disagreement. At some point Kiev will either take control of the situation or completely breakdown and bow to Putin's will which will cause war which, I would say is where Putin's bets are hedged. If it does break out into civil war, Putin has all the justification he needs to invade FWIW
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My take would be "on the verge" of civil war. Remove the Russian fomenting and you'd be left with highly charged political disagreement. At some point Kiev will either take control of the situation or completely breakdown and bow to Putin's will which will cause war which, I would say is where Putin's bets are hedged. If it does break out into civil war, Putin has all the justification he needs to invade FWIW
You may be right FP. I would hope that if Russia were to disengage (with whatever activities they are currently doing) things would boil down to non violent disagreement. My guts tell me otherwise but maybe the degree of violence would be lessened.
Putin got Crimea, I would be surprised if he risked more by invading. The current gov is certainly walking a tight rope there with trying to put down the violent offenders while not provoking an all-out Putin invasion.
With stories like GQ linked too, it seems the gov isn't doing such a good job in that department.
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Well, you just got to love the French (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-07/why-france-inc-dot-is-still-going-to-putins-economic-summit). At least they're consistent, and not all European political parties (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-04-24/why-europes-far-right-is-getting-cozy-with-russia) agree with what the west apparently is doing.
What a mess...
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My take would be "on the verge" of civil war.
That sounds about right where Ukraine is at. Since the beginning of unrest in east Ukraine, only a few dozen people have died. There needs to be a series of a few incidences to ignite a war. People burning alive in buildings in Odessa weren't enough to start a war. A couple of citizens getting shot at a voting station weren't enough. There will be more deaths. This won't end soon. Putin has plenty of time on his hands.
Touchy are we?
You're starting to figure out GQ. He likes to make a lot of noise around here and when he's upset, he calls people names and abuses his keyboard while on the job. His boss is paying for most of his posts here so it pays to insult people on the internet. To be fair, I think we've all called people names before, but most of us graduated past the 4th grade. Someday he may realize nobody in history ever achieved greatness while putting others down but can't deny, putting others down sure helps with insecurity issues.
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Sorry maxx...I have my reasons so don't take it personally. :(
No problems. Besides the PTB might read our PMs and they would know our schemes ;D [size=78%] [/size]
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...You're starting to figure out GQ. He likes to make a lot of noise around here and when he's upset, he calls people names and abuses his keyboard while on the job. His boss is paying for most of his posts here so it pays to insult people on the internet. To be fair, I think we've all called people names before, but most of us graduated past the 4th grade. Someday he may realize nobody in history ever achieved greatness while putting others down but can't deny, putting others down sure helps with insecurity issues.
I take special delight doing it to you BillyB :P I mean, no one ever bragged about being an honor student like you have and be proven otherwise so easily.
As for my *boss* - I AM the boss.. ;)
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No problems. Besides the PTB might read our PMs and they would know our schemes ;D
To be fair, I can't send one to anyone either...my message box is clean and empty.
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Joe Biden's son joins the Board of Directors in Ukrainian gas company. The best argument (though unarticulated) the Putinistas have against Euromaidan is that they would be trading one set of Oligarchs for another.
What say you?
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You may be right FP. I would hope that if Russia were to disengage (with whatever activities they are currently doing) things would boil down to non violent disagreement. My guts tell me otherwise but maybe the degree of violence would be lessened.
Putin got Crimea, I would be surprised if he risked more by invading. The current gov is certainly walking a tight rope there with trying to put down the violent offenders while not provoking an all-out Putin invasion.
With stories like GQ linked too, it seems the gov isn't doing such a good job in that department.
If he can continue to foment and agitate without the world coming down on him and threatening him militarily it's possible he can spur a civil war inside Ukraine. At which such time, the world will ask him to save it. He can then invade with the worlds blessing.
Yeah I know it's quite a stretch but it is a logical scenario. His troops have not left the Ukrainian border. They are there for a reason.
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Joe Biden's son joins the Board of Directors in Ukrainian gas company. The best argument (though unarticulated) the Putinistas have against Euromaidan is that they would be trading one set of Oligarchs for another.
What say you?
A lot of people is going to think it's all about making money and Joe Biden's trip to Ukraine last month was to get his son a job but I don't think so. Earlier I mentioned for Ukraine to turn it's economy around, they need to bring in outsiders who know how to get things done and to watch over things so corruption doesn't rule. Germany and Japan had successfully turned their economies around after WWII with outside help. I hope Ukraine brings in more Westerners to help out with building their economy and the money that the West is giving Ukraine needs to have overseers to make sure it's being used in the right places.
I have completely opposite political beliefs compared to Joe Biden's son but he very well may be qualified to help Ukraine move in the right direction and make sure our American tax dollars get spent wisely. I wish him well at his new job.
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I hope Ukraine brings in more Westerners to help out with building their economy and the money that the West is giving Ukraine needs to have overseers to make sure it's being used in the right places.
lol Overseers, eh? Hilarious... you can complain about Putin's influence over Ukraine and then say the West needs to have overseers to make sure Ukraine is being a good little boy.
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you can complain about Putin's influence over Ukraine
Yes, I, you, and the majority of Ukrainian people can complain. Putin had influence over Ukraine. Their government and economy was in sorry shape, corruption was a way of life, and it wasn't going to get better with Putin running the show.
Have patience. It will take some time but Ukraine could be the next Poland and it's citizens will eventually make more income than the average Russian citizen.
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Why is it that we can complain, but people in Russian can't complain about the balding blonde ball from Heaven?
BTW, turns out there Nazis in Ukraine
http://belsat.eu/en/wiadomosci/a,19735,orthodox-army-of-donbas-russian-neofascist-organisation-recruits-volunteers-in-belarus.html
But they are from the Kremlin
I hope Ukraine kicks Putin's sorry ass like Solange did to Jiggerman.
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Joe Biden's son joins the Board of Directors in Ukrainian gas company. The best argument (though unarticulated) the Putinistas have against Euromaidan is that they would be trading one set of Oligarchs for another.
What say you?
[/quote
I caught that too. Another reason to believe America engineered the coup for the financial benefit of the insiders.
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I just read that Russia was pulling it troops aeay from Ukrainian border and encouraging a postponement of the goofy referendum this Sunday. This moght bode well for no invasion of the mainland... which i never felt was feasible. Perhaps there is a deal in the works.
Fathertime!
LMAO
Well, is your massive head stuck again?
Where is the proof you so adamantly demand? Show some pictures, anything, proving the Russians are pulling out.
Kinda tough talking when your head is stuck, isn't it?
Oh well, back on perpetual vacation mode. Heh, heh, heh
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A lot of people is going to think it's all about making money and Joe Biden's trip to Ukraine last month was to get his son a job but I don't think so. Earlier I mentioned for Ukraine to turn it's economy around, they need to bring in outsiders who know how to get things done and to watch over things so corruption doesn't rule. Germany and Japan had successfully turned their economies around after WWII with outside help. I hope Ukraine brings in more Westerners to help out with building their economy and the money that the West is giving Ukraine needs to have overseers to make sure it's being used in the right places.
I have completely opposite political beliefs compared to Joe Biden's son but he very well may be qualified to help Ukraine move in the right direction and make sure our American tax dollars get spent wisely. I wish him well at his new job.
Unbelievable :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat:
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I don't support the Obama's. I support Ukraine. This from a respected pro-Euromaidan blogger Max Seddon.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/bidens-son-polish-ex-president-quietly-sign-on-to-ukrainian?s=mobile
Basically impeaches US credibility, but at least with Junior there, the Army gets some tanks. . . Embarrassing . . . no honor or even class . . .
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LMAO
Well, is your massive head stuck again?
Where is the proof you so adamantly demand? Show some pictures, anything, proving the Russians are pulling out.
Kinda tough talking when your head is stuck, isn't it?
Oh well, back on perpetual vacation mode. Heh, heh, heh
You and your viewpoint are irrelevant from my perspective. You are only semi-literate" , because if you read what I wrote you would see that I wrote: "I read that Russia was pulling out it's troops"...all that is required is that I would have read it... I bet the moment you walked out that door for the last time, the fellow employees started with the high fives and partying like it was 1999... and disinfecting that office of yours...
Fathertime!
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Biden's son being on the board of the largest Ukrainian gas company...it certainly looks bad to me...I'm a little surprised that our people didn't pull him aside and mention it might not be a good idea RIGHT NOW. I'm curious how other countries will view this. I'd say it gives the appearance of some impropriety.
Fathertime!
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So now after all the silly denial of USA's intervention in another country's state of affairs, what with all the illegal take over of a sovereign government, violence handed over to the country's citizenry, and all the chaos and uncertainty that wrapped the entire country, not to mention the pending division within its border; all the western media stooges can only say, 'oh well?'....
People died in this crisis. It sent an entire nation of people in desperate times...oh well?
Don't be give me this crap about USAID and all that silly feel good stuff. Tell that to those people who died in Kiev, people who were burned alive in Odessa and the family who survived them that they should all feel good the ol' USA caused and financed their suffering and ordeal.
This ain't about some silly sanctimonious acts of kindness. This has always been about geopolitical establishment and hegemony.
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Russia's military despite the fancy parades is not that competent. Putin I think is afraid his army will disappoint him like they did in Georgia, Chechnya and Syria. For Obama, this is all about Syria not Ukraine. But if Putin invades he has played out all his cards and loses at least temporarily all that oil revenue from his EU customers and might push them over to finding more reliable supply.
The Germans are playing a double game. Westerwelle is gone and Schroeder's SPD is in Merkel's government. Even members of her own party and own district do not support harsh terms for Putin.
Putin's hold on power is approaching the absurd. He, as Emperor of the Third Rome, like Nero and Commodus, is indulging in his hobbies to build weak popular support. Most Russians are patriotic but even by calling Ukrainians Nazis, many have blood ties to Ukraine. Meanwhile Defense Minister Dmitry Rogozin threatens to bomb Romania after she denied him entrance into her airspace.
We had 23 years to disarm these bastards. Can't blame everything on Obama.
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So now after all the silly denial of USA's intervention in another country's state of affairs, what with all the illegal take over of a sovereign government, violence handed over to the country's citizenry, and all the chaos and uncertainty that wrapped the entire country, not to mention the pending division within its border; all the western media stooges can only say, 'oh well?'....
People died in this crisis. It sent an entire nation of people in desperate times...oh well?
Don't be give me this crap about USAID and all that silly feel good stuff. Tell that to those people who died in Kiev, people who were burned alive in Odessa and the family who survived them that they should all feel good the ol' USA caused and financed their suffering and ordeal.
This ain't about some silly sanctimonious acts of kindness. This has always been about geopolitical establishment and hegemony.
You're right. Row See Yah! Refer rent dumb. Putin! Yanukovych!
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We had 23 years to disarm these bastards. Can't blame everything on Obama.
just send a dozen little green men in little green unmarked f-16's to buzz around crimea for a few days.
he won't know where they are from or who to fight back against.
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Self defense forces
Win win
Ron Paul, tower 7, haarp
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Ron Paul!
his son will become prez in 2016. Ron will be appointed Treasury Secretary and together this dynamic duo will chase the money changers out of the Fed Temple!
Ron Paul! Rand Paul! Ron Paul!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiKh9Ko3mw4
Wake up America!
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So now after all the silly denial of USA's intervention in another country's state of affairs, what with all the illegal take over of a sovereign government, violence handed over to the country's citizenry, and all the chaos and uncertainty that wrapped the entire country, not to mention the pending division within its border; all the western media stooges can only say, 'oh well?'....
People died in this crisis. It sent an entire nation of people in desperate times...oh well?
Don't be give me this crap about USAID and all that silly feel good stuff. Tell that to those people who died in Kiev, people who were burned alive in Odessa and the family who survived them that they should all feel good the ol' USA caused and financed their suffering and ordeal.
This ain't about some silly sanctimonious acts of kindness. This has always been about geopolitical establishment and hegemony.
Right on! But ironic it is that those of us that knows this to be true are called victims of Russian propaganda, brainwashed, Kool-Aid drinkers and so on. It would be laughable except for the background of human tragedy.
The neocons in Washington must not succeed. The entire world needs a certain Balance militarily that Russia gives vs the US empire and the way I see it, only Putin has the qualities needed for that. Kinda like Churchill was the right leader at the right time when the original fascists threatened the world 75 years ago.
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It isn't about neoconservatism, Natural. McCarthyism never left America's psyche. The Commies are, and always will be, the boogeymen.
Ukraine's May 25th election is nothing more than just silly fanfare. The leader has already been decided. 1950 Iran all over again.
Old habits die hard.
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Spoken from someone who should have been deported a long time ago . . .
Remember folks, Commies demoralize, force a crisis and then normalize (purge) . . .
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The neocons in Washington must not succeed. The entire world needs a certain Balance militarily that Russia gives vs the US empire and the way I see it, only Putin has the qualities needed for that. Kinda like Churchill was the right leader at the right time when the original fascists threatened the world 75 years ago.
I disagree. The goal should be stability, not balance. The US has already been cutting military spending, about the only positive point I can make about Obama. This was happening even with the awareness that China may pose a substantial future threat. If Russia continues to exercise its aggression, the hawks in Washington, DC will gain favor. It is best for world stability (and the US Federal budget) that Russia does not challenge the status quo.
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It isn't about neoconservatism, Natural. McCarthyism never left America's psyche. The Commies are, and always will be, the boogeymen.
Yes, maybe so. But it seems it goes much deeper these days. Seems like these folks in charge in Washington demonize anyone who oppose their goal of total world domination whereas as I understand it, a majority of Americans are opposed to all the meddling in Foreign countries, including Ukraine/Russia. Remember the "If you're not With us, you're agains us".
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The goal should be stability, not balance.
Stability can happen if nations such as Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and a few others earn other nation's respect and trust.
If Russia continues to exercise its aggression, the hawks in Washington, DC will gain favor.
Based on a few recent world events, Eastern European nations, Philippines, Japan, and South Korea have asked America to increase our military presence in their nations. Vietnam may be joining them. I hope we're getting paid for providing that security.
It is best for world stability (and the US Federal budget) that Russia does not challenge the status quo.
We're dealing with humans who are flawed. Stability is not what everyone is looking for. History has shown stability doesn't last unless one has a stronger military than the nations who'd want to end the way life you'd want to live. There are people who exist today, will exist tomorrow and some are right here on the forum who'd take joy in the downfall of America because they believe the world will be a better place to live.
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Yes, maybe so. But it seems it goes much deeper these days. Seems like these folks in charge in Washington demonize anyone who oppose their goal of total world domination whereas as I understand it, a majority of Americans are opposed to all the meddling in Foreign countries, including Ukraine/Russia. Remember the "If you're not With us, you're agains us".
Your impressions are on the mark however these types of US-interventions, like the illegalities in Ukraine today, had been happening all over the globe for a long time now and the only difference today than the recent past is the availability of information to all of us. In essence, we *see* things unfold as they occur. Lies and deception's are easily exposed.
It used to be Americans always 'wondered' why so many hate us...Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, SA....events like Abu Graib, Nerkh, Kosovo, Serbia, etc..are just now coming to fruition that gives light as to 'why'.
Here's one example of that: http://www.rollingstone.com/feature/a-team-killings-afghanistan-special-forces (http://www.rollingstone.com/feature/a-team-killings-afghanistan-special-forces)
Watch this video...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/videos/watch-highly-disturbing-footage-of-detainee-abuses-in-afghanistan-20131107
In the end, it matters very little what political stooge we elect in Washington. Same circus just different clowns.
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This is what we supported and financed in the Balkans with our tax dollars..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG8PQPkskW4&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL65DB0A98B4022D45s)
Bosnians crimes against Serb civilians.
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This is what we supported and financed in the Balkans with our tax dollars..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG8PQPkskW4&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL65DB0A98B4022D45s)
Bosnians crimes against Serb civilians.
I'm getting an "invalid parameters"
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Yes, maybe so. But it seems it goes much deeper these days. Seems like these folks in charge in Washington demonize anyone who oppose their goal of total world domination whereas as I understand it, a majority of Americans are opposed to all the meddling in Foreign countries, including Ukraine/Russia. Remember the "If you're not With us, you're agains us".
That was George W Bush and it was "If you're not with us you are with the terrorists." This is the same tactic used by JayH, LordT and what BillyB just wrote:
[/size][/size]"some are right here on the forum who'd take joy in the downfall of America because they believe the world will be a better place to live."[size=78%][/size]
[/size]
[/size]
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That was George W Bush and it was "If you're not with us you are with the terrorists."
Yeah, that's right... it was With the terrorists.... even worse :-[
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I'm getting an "invalid parameters"
Yeah...and some say we have no censorship. Google the title. Some are too graphic and you have to sign in to view. Some are just banned altogether.
*********************
Everything you're curious about BURISMA (http://thefederalist.com/2014/05/13/9-questions-to-ask-about-bidens-work-with-a-gas-company-in-ukraine/) and the wonderful world of US hegemony.
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That was George W Bush and it was "If you're not with us you are with the terrorists." This is the same tactic used by JayH, LordT and what BillyB just wrote...
Yeah, well, you can read the drivels from all those 3 in this thread alone. Actually 2, the other just cut/paste articles.
Case in point....Filipinos DOES NOT want US bases back in the Philippines and have that country back on dangerous crosshair of countries the US may be targeting. BillyB surfs the shallow end of the western media and promote that stupidity all across. The agreement between Aquino and Obama was shrouded with secrecy and the country and its politicians were adamantly opposed to this arrangement.
It reserves the right for the US to have full access, and unabated regulations to house, deliver, use, store, build, operate, utilize, etc...whatever they feel the need to do so within the territory of the Philippines. That isn't 'asking for help', that's spotting that country as 'ground zero'.
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The nongay Filipinos approve of more US bases.
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That was George W Bush and it was "If you're not with us you are with the terrorists."
Why did Bush say that? Was said pertaining to the hunt for 9/11 terrorists or for every policy he was trying to push? How about Obama? Does he subscribe to those words pertaining to his actions in Ukraine or even Obamacare?
Filipinos DOES NOT want US bases back in the Philippines
That's easy for you to say from the safety of your home in America. YOU, being Filipino, living in America, may not like the deal but luckily for an entire population of a nation, YOU, are not in charge of their security.
Everybody who knows Americans that went to the Philippines knows that Americans are popular there and the girls will be flirtatious. It's an easier place to find a woman than in the FSU. Just because a few militiants don't like the deal doesn't mean they represent the whole population.
Filipinos DOES NOT want US bases back in the Philippines and have that country back on dangerous crosshair of countries the US may be targeting.
Philippines were in China's crosshair before the deal for the base was stuck.
The agreement between Aquino and Obama was shrouded with secrecy and the country and its politicians were adamantly opposed to this arrangement.
You're making stuff up again or flat out lying. This deal was not shrouded in secrecy and agreed upon in a short time just a few weeks ago. Filipino and American citizens were notified last year with the Philippines approaching America first about a base. These talks have been in the open from the beginning to the end. Just because YOU were not included in high level meetings between the nations doesn't mean this thing went down in secrecy.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/philippines-to-open-negotiations-with-us-on-expanding-military-presence/2013/08/08/6dd10ef6-0040-11e3-96a8-d3b921c0924a_story.html
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....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/philippines-to-open-negotiations-with-us-on-expanding-military-presence/2013/08/08/6dd10ef6-0040-11e3-96a8-d3b921c0924a_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/philippines-to-open-negotiations-with-us-on-expanding-military-presence/2013/08/08/6dd10ef6-0040-11e3-96a8-d3b921c0924a_story.html)
See what I mean? The shallow end of the western media. You'd think you'd learn from your silly stance in this Ukrainian crisis by now. But cloddish that you are, that was expecting way too much.
...You're making stuff up again or flat out lying. This deal was not shrouded in secrecy and agreed upon in a short time just a few weeks ago. Filipino and American citizens were notified last year with the Philippines approaching America first about a base. These talks have been in the open from the beginning to the end. Just because YOU were not included in high level meetings between the nations doesn't mean this thing went down in secrecy....
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1498961/unconstitutional-us-philippines-defence-pact-face-legal-challenge (http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1498961/unconstitutional-us-philippines-defence-pact-face-legal-challenge)
"...The constitutionality of the newly signed pact allowing the US a wider military presence in the Philippines is likely to be challenged in the country's Supreme Court by a group of former senators and other activists who criticised the secrecy of the long-running negotiations....
....The criticism also came from opposition members and some within Philippine President Benigno Aquino's own Liberal Party who said they were not briefed on the pact's contents. On the eve of the US president's visit, former Philippine vice president Teofisto Guingona and former senator Wigberto Tanada signed a joint statement with other religious and civil society leaders criticising the secret negotiations. Fellow former senator Rene Saguisag said: "For weeks now, we have been pleading on bended knees [to be briefed on the draft pact] ... what this administration is doing is procedurally deplorable."
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/Filipinoprotest_zps33aa307e.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/Filipinoprotest_zps33aa307e.jpg.html)
http://filipinotimes.ae/top-news/2014/04/26/us-based-hard-line-outfits-protest-against-obamas-philippine-visit/
"..As Filipinos, we have to be critical of the US agenda in the region. We do not want to be pawns in the US power play in Asia. We do not want to be used for US bases and troops and be a staging ground for US intervention. We do not want the US simply taking advantage of the dispute with China and giving false promises of aid just so the US can justify the return of its bases in the Philippines. And we do not want another free trade agreement that aims to change the Constitution and bleed the economy dry,” said Bayan....""...“By making this an executive agreement not requiring Senate concurrence, the Philippine government has assured that details of the pact will remain a secret until the day it is signed. The people are deliberately being kept in the dark. We are being given assurances only through press conferences by negotiators, but there is really nothing we can scrutinize.”...
Obviously you didn't know but the Philippines' Constitution forbids any foreign military presence in it's borders. Even the amendment of 1999 only allows for *temporary* stays. So, there's no the *Philippines asking for the US to be there* stupidity.
Talk about something else you actually know, BillyB. I realize that would literally mean you'd be silent for durations of time, but man you're idiotic display to pretend you *know* something/anything is absurd.
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Some real information that is updated--
U.S. releases satellite images of Russian forces near Ukraine
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The U.S. government released new satellite pictures on Tuesday which it said showed Russian forces were still near the Ukrainian border in recent days, contradicting Russian assertions they had been withdrawn.
NATO officials have previously estimated Russia has around 40,000 soldiers close to Ukraine's border, exacerbating the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War.
"The reality is that Russia continues to have 40,000 high readiness troops massed on Ukraine's border and another 25,000 troops in Crimea. The units on the latest satellite pictures show mechanized infantry, armored vehicles and combat helicopters," he said in a statement.
http://news.yahoo.com/u-releases-satellite-images-russian-forces-near-ukraine-191329937--sector.html
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I agree with BillyB who despite some disagreements from time to time uses fact to substantiate his arguments.
Besides, this ain't about the PI, its Ukraine - a nation, you want destroyed. Why? Because you hate America.
If you think I am such a blight on society, you know where to find me and how to get a hold of me. Women of the third gender are such attention whores.
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Obviously you didn't know but the Philippines' Constitution forbids any foreign military presence in it's borders. Even the amendment of 1999 only allows for *temporary* stays. So, there's no the *Philippines asking for the US to be there* stupidity.
In 1999 your government changed the constitution to allow ONLY American troops to stay there temporarily. Out of all the nations in the world, Philippines granted America this honor. Since then, American troops have helped with typhoon disaster relief and pushing back the Muslim militant terrorists in your country. They helped save civilian lives. There is no secrecy to the 10 year agreement. American troops will be rotated in your country so it doesn't violate the Constitution you hold dear.
As Filipinos, we have to be critical of the US agenda in the region.
Unbelievable! Where are your priorities? You recently had China starve your fellow countrymen living on an island, you have China currently invading one of your islands and building an airstrip, you have China claiming the entire China Sea and all its resources which Philippines may be entitled to under international law and you're worrying about American imperialism?
Look, you can go back to the Philippines and run for President on the platform you will stop America from taking over your country. I tried to picture you as President of the Philippines and under a full scale invasion from China, I see you telling America that you will not allow us to violate your constitution and refuse help. Your constitution may not exist in the future but as long as America doesn't violate it, then you're happy.
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The PI already has a homosexual for a President. Not sure it wants another. Same for us . . . though he wouldn't need to prove his citizenship given current case law . . .
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...blah, blah, blah...
You can't blabber away and attempt to hide your silliness BillyB. You know very well I had once again proved how much of a clod you are. You talk as though you know jack when you really only know jackshit.
:P
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The PI already has a homosexual for a President. Not sure it wants another.
Is that another reason why your own family is embarrassed of you, SpongeBob?
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You can't blabber away and attempt to hide your silliness BillyB. You know very well I had once again proved how much of a clod you are. You talk as though you know jack when you really only know jackshit.
:P
Arhhhh--let's see--- this is coming from a guy that argues the Government of a country is illegitimate and thus it is ok for those that choose to go on a murderous rampage of robbing,looting,killing etc. And then they are entitled to secede--because they say so!!
Pretty clear who is clueless.
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Arhhhh--let's see--- this is coming from a guy that argues the Government of a country is illegitimate and thus it is ok for those that choose to go on a murderous rampage of robbing,looting,killing etc. And then they are entitled to secede--because they say so!!
Pretty clear who is clueless.
I didn't argue the present government in Ukraine is illegitimate. I didn't have to because it is illegitimate. That is a fact.
The clueless title goes to you. LOL. It isn't hard to ascertain who the 3 stooges in this thread. With sparring cameo by Curly from Chelsea.
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Arhhhh--let's see--- this is coming from a guy that argues the Government of a country is illegitimate and thus it is ok for those that choose to go on a murderous rampage of robbing,looting,killing etc. And then they are entitled to secede--because they say so!!
Pretty clear who is clueless.
You are not being truthful when u say he said it was ok to go killing people. Yes he feels the govt is illegitimate. It appears quite a few Ukrainians feel the same way, and some are willing to take up arms...the result is deaths.Pointing that out doesn't equate to cheering on the killing. By your logic one could say u took unusual delight when the people were burned in odessa.
Fathertime!
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Regarding this agreement in the Philippines: Does anybody know what the agreement states? What exactly are we *The US* promising and getting in return?
Fathertime!
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The PI already has a homosexual for a President. Not sure it wants another.
Gosh GQ, now he is calling you a homo :mooning:
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Regarding this agreement in the Philippines: Does anybody know what the agreement states? What exactly are we *The US* promising and getting in return?
First off, it's supposed to be an executive agreement and not by any means a 'treaty'. The EDCA is composed of 12 articles and is sanitized and summarized here (actual Agreement not available at press time)...
http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/analyzing-the-us-philippines-enhanced-defense-cooperation-agreement/
Promise: To uphold international rights over international waters as governed by the United Nations (US being a SC principal as is China).
Getting: First strike capabilities, military presence, significant strategic location due to increasing Asiatic tensions..
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Gosh GQ, now he is calling you a homo :mooning:
Yeah, well, what else do you expect a typical loser would revert to?
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China and Russia has been improving economic ties over the past few months and now Russia scored a massive 30 year gas pipeline deal with China. Russia could soon turn off the gas to Europe before Europe finds other ways to supply their needs. Putin is showing his citizens he's still one step ahead of Western leaders. I'm not surprised that Russia and China recently have extended their borders at the same time. The new Axis?
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-scores-massive-gas-pipeline-deal-with-china-2014-5
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I didn't argue the present government in Ukraine is illegitimate. I didn't have to because it is illegitimate.
Far too sweeping of a statement.
The elected representatives of Verkhovna Rada remain unchanged after Yanukovych was deposed. Thus, the legislative component of government is legitimate.
Most of the cabinet too. Judicial?
Yanukovych's successor will be determined in the upcoming election. Meanwhile, Rada appointed an acting head of Presidential administration (whatever that means) as a temporary caretaker (somebody was needed). The election will make him moot.
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Far too sweeping of a statement.
The elected representatives of Verkhovna Rada remain unchanged after Yanukovych was deposed. Thus, the legislative component of government is legitimate.
Most of the cabinet too. Judicial?
The actual deposition of the president itself was against the rule of law. Unconstitutional, thus ensuing governance is illegitimate.
as defined, 'against law or rules: not carried out, made, or constituted in accordance with the law, the rules governing a specific activity, or social norms and customs..' - makes it illegitimate.
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China and Russia has been improving economic ties over the past few months and now Russia scored a massive 30 year gas pipeline deal with China. Russia could soon turn off the gas to Europe before Europe finds other ways to supply their needs. Putin is showing his citizens he's still one step ahead of Western leaders. I'm not surprised that Russia and China recently have extended their borders at the same time. The new Axis?
What else would you expect? The EU and the US keep screwing with Russia they will sell their gas elsewhere. Russia can't touch the US but they can sure touch the EU. I expect soon that the EU will tell the US to cram their help and human rights where the sun doesn't shine.
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What else would you expect? The EU and the US keep screwing with Russia they will sell their gas elsewhere. Russia can't touch the US but they can sure touch the EU. I expect soon that the EU will tell the US to cram their help and human rights where the sun doesn't shine.
The gas pipelines goes through Ukraine and then to the European countries. The Europeans pay their bills but the illegitimate bandits in Kiev does not and is Owing 3,5 billion to Russia. Gas as a weapon? Is Russia supposed to provide Ukraine With free gas? And Washington With it's European lackeys have just about declared war, through economic means, on Russia via sanctions. Who knows what will happen, but if the Europeans (which is divided in it's view on this situation) don't make sure the criminals pay for the gas, they deserve to have it cut.
Another thing to keep in mind in the weeks to come is what Russia (and China) might do With their trade denominated in dollars. Reports are that Russia plan to use other currencies than the US dollar in trade and Putin is going to China for talks Next week. Just mentioning it......
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Not much noise about Russian being willing to annex the areas which held a referendum on Sunday. Things moved a lot quicker in Crimea after the referendum there.
Does Putin not really want the area? Is Putin better served with the chaos caused by the seperatists? How will the seperatists and even those who want to be part of Russia feel if Putin ignores their plea? Will we see the birth of a lawless area? Have things gone further than Putin intended and he needs a bit of time to decide what next? Have they not gone as far as Putin intended and is he reconsidering his options?
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The leader of the opposition is an ancient warfare reenactor named Strelkov:
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA4E06E20140515?irpc=932
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The elected representatives of Verkhovna Rada remain unchanged after Yanukovych was deposed. Thus, the legislative component of government is legitimate.
Most of the cabinet too. Judicial?
This is what I've been writing for ages, but which other people seem to conveniently ignore - interesting that there has never been a response directly addressed to this point.
The actual deposition of the president itself was against the rule of law. Unconstitutional, thus ensuing governance is illegitimate.
as defined, 'against law or rules: not carried out, made, or constituted in accordance with the law, the rules governing a specific activity, or social norms and customs..' - makes it illegitimate.
We know the point you're making, because you've been making it for quite a while, but have you now changed your words because you realise that other people do actually have a legitimate point of view? If Yanukovych's removal was illegal, as you insist, then I agree that subsequent governance in the name of the President would be illegal. That doesn't change the fact that the Government itself has not changed, and therefore any of its own subsequent actions made within the law cannot possibly be deemed to be illegal. Not necessarily best practice, perhaps, given some of what has happened since February, but not illegal.
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Does Putin not really want the area? Is Putin better served with the chaos caused by the seperatists?
If Putin annexes east Ukraine now, his game in Ukraine is over. Putin will not be able to do to west Ukraine what he's doing in east Ukraine. He needs east Ukraine to continue it's resistance to Kiev and start a civil war. If east Ukraine wins, Putin regains control of all Ukraine through annexation or installing another puppet president.
Putin's problem now is east Ukrainians have not risen against Kiev and west Ukrainians as much as he'd like. More civilians need to be shot by mysterious people saying they are representing the government in Kiev for a civil war to happen.
Putin is also looking into the future. He sent a high level diplomat to Moldova to have people sign a petition to join Russia and delivered that petition to Putin just a few days ago.
What else would you expect?
I expected it. Did Obama? Did Obama believe taking business away from Russia will not present Russia with other opportunities? Earlier in this thread I debated against people who thought China was on our side on this issue. See the Prez of China shaking hands with Putin over the gas deal? Behind closed doors you can be sure they talked about how to continue to expand and keep the West from reacting. Those two nations with their mad dogs, Iran and North Korea, can cause serious damage in the region and scare the West into doing nothing.
I expect soon that the EU will tell the US to cram their help and human rights where the sun doesn't shine.
The EU have already provided resistance to what Obama is trying to do and many consider what Obama is trying to do is soft. They may someday ask America to back off Ukraine and pretend Russia has rights there.
When Hitler annexed Czechoslovakia and Austria, other European nations didn't want war and pretended Hitler's grievances were justified and that Hitler's intentions were limited. Putin knows history. There's so much he and China can do before the West will actually use military means to stop them. I don't think Russia and China wants war but they do want what they can get away with.
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That doesn't change the fact that the Government itself has not changed, and therefore any of its own subsequent actions made within the law cannot possibly be deemed to be illegal. Not necessarily best practice, perhaps, given some of what has happened since February, but not illegal.
It seems you don't count the President as being part of the government. Removing the President without following the rules designated within their Constitution would be considered illegal by most.
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If Putin annexes east Ukraine now, his game in Ukraine is over. Putin will not be able to do to west Ukraine what he's doing in east Ukraine. He needs east Ukraine to continue it's resistance to Kiev and start a civil war. If east Ukraine wins, Putin regains control of all Ukraine through annexation or installing another puppet president.
Putin's problem now is east Ukrainians have not risen against Kiev and west Ukrainians as much as he'd like. More civilians need to be shot by mysterious people saying they are representing the government in Kiev for a civil war to happen.
Hey Billyb, this seems a little far fetched to me....I really don't think V. Putin expected to take over all of Ukraine...that was never on the table....What is going on in E. Ukraine, may serve Russia's wants just fine...it will depend on what the agreement winds up being....if those Eastern regions gain autonomy, then I believe Russia winds up with the very most they could have realistically expected. Occupying the area is/was not what they want...I believe Ukraine would be best served to give the regions the autonomy and work with what they firmly have.
One problem that has developed is that, in these regions the separatists are now going to boycott the national vote on May 25, as they have declared themselves completely separate. IMO that is not realistically going to happen and after that election, they need to stand down, and be included in the future talks pertaining to their respective regions. The USA really doesn't need to have any role in this except to serve the drinks at the meeting. :)
Fathertime!
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China and Russia has been improving economic ties over the past few months and now Russia scored a massive 30 year gas pipeline deal with China. Russia could soon turn off the gas to Europe before Europe finds other ways to supply their needs. Putin is showing his citizens he's still one step ahead of Western leaders. I'm not surprised that Russia and China recently have extended their borders at the same time. The new Axis?
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-scores-massive-gas-pipeline-deal-with-china-2014-5 (http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-scores-massive-gas-pipeline-deal-with-china-2014-5)
hey Billyb,
Regarding China, I believe in a lot of respects they have the positional edge on the USA. They are buying swaths of land around the world, and their citizens and expatriates are buying much of California! We do owe them a lot of money, their factories do produce a lot of our stuff. Sure we default on them, but that would be the end of us too, as our dollar would be destroyed. We could stop buying the stuff made in China, but I don't think that would destroy them, because their are almost 200 other countries in the world and someone will buy a lot of their goods, at a reduced price, in addition they can always keep the stuff they make and improve their own lives. Overall, I'd say it is better to be the country making the stuff and selling it, rather than the country borrowing and buying it. From what I've seen China has clearly leaned Russian and will undermine any sanctions we try to impose.China continues to position itself, while we get wrapped up in these stupid foreign wartime adventures. I don't think it would be a great move to play hardball with china given the position we have put ourselves in. It is high time for the USA to focus on our own needs within the country itself. IMO
Fathertime!
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Not much noise about Russian being willing to annex the areas which held a referendum on Sunday. Things moved a lot quicker in Crimea after the referendum there.
Does Putin not really want the area? Is Putin better served with the chaos caused by the seperatists? How will the seperatists and even those who want to be part of Russia feel if Putin ignores their plea? Will we see the birth of a lawless area? Have things gone further than Putin intended and he needs a bit of time to decide what next? Have they not gone as far as Putin intended and is he reconsidering his options?
Crimea was an easy catch. Now Putin left the rest to continue unrest with an untested government. Surprise.. he won't have to take it. I really don't see much interest from the US and EU to help get UA back on it's feet again.. Oh some loans with hefty strings attached that will end up in RU koffers anyway..
I think EU and even the US is learning that UA is a complete rats nest and neither is willing to invest heavily, financially or otherwise in any manner that is not fully secured with rock solid guarantees.
Putin is just giving the west a chance to get their toes wet then decide the water is too hot and pull back. When they do he will step in and take it all with little protest.
At the moment it's a waiting game and time is on Putin's side.
The next big test will be winter. If UA has not paid it's bills by then the gas will get cut off and Putin will be able to say 'I told you so..'
A freezing UA will will be partially fed gas by EU (maybe enough for the western part) and Putin will draw lines and take the East.
Game over.
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... If Yanukovych's removal was illegal, as you insist, then I agree that subsequent governance in the name of the President would be illegal.
There's no 'IF'. That's the sole and only point.
Similarly, Bill Clinton was impeached by the HoR, acquitted by the HoS. Had he been removed from office despite the acquittal and was replaced by the VP, it would have been unconstitutional (illegal). The ensuing BODY of governance is illegitimate because the executive branch is an integral part of the collective governing system.
Or using another term, the government would have become a *bastard* offspring.
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..Not much noise about Russian being willing to annex the areas which held a referendum on Sunday....
No, because Germany took the lead for talks with Kiev, US, Russia in hopes to broker a power sharing deal whereas eastern Ukraine, in an attempt to avoid any annexation to Russia due to last Sunday's referendum result, would be entitled to political leverage in the government.
Moscow already expressed they are not interested in changing the borders with Ukraine and annex eastern Ukraine but reiterated they will not hesitate in protecting its citizens if a civil war breaks out.
Fighting has continued in the area. Even a UN helicopter is now being used for military purposes.
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and how does that differ from what Putin was saying before Crimea was annexed, yet he wasted little time after the 'referendum' in doing so? He said he would respect the will of the people, yet,
Maybe he has discovered he can not afford Eastern Ukraine? Interesting that today he has asked the EU to do more to support Ukraine financially yet Russia pulled the rug from under Ukraine by stopping their financial support (then again, that money probably needed to afford Crimea). He is basically demanding the west help Ukraine but will not allow Ukraine to move closer to the West, bit of a double standard.
A bit like the double standard of calling the current government 'illegitimate' but also demanding they grant the regions more autonomy. If the current government is indeed 'illegitimate', then any decision they make on policy would not be 'legitimate' and thus the any decision they make on autonomy of the regions should not be 'legitimate'.
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A bit like the double standard of calling the current government 'illegitimate' but also demanding they grant the regions more autonomy. If the current government is indeed 'illegitimate', then any decision they make on policy would not be 'legitimate' and thus the any decision they make on autonomy of the regions should not be 'legitimate'.
I agree that the temporary government should not make longstanding agreements regarding the autonomy or anything else! They can begin the talks, and propose framework but the final decision should be made by a more accepted government. Elections are next week and hopefully at that point the govt will be seen as reasonably legitimate.
Fathertime!
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...At the moment it's a waiting game and time is on Putin's side.....
Time is just one of them...for the most part, the EU is fully aware you can't cut off your foot in an attempt to make progressive strides favorable to the west against Russia (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/strong-eu-economic-sanctions-against-russia-unlikely-a-968913.html). The EU members are divided in assessing what proper cause of actions should be taken to curtail further escalation of the current state of affairs in Ukraine. They are literally in a political/economical treadmill.
Anything short of the current talks in Kiev that gives eastern Ukraine a sizeable share of power in Kiev will likely have an immense negative effect not only for Russia/Ukraine but reverberating all across Europe.
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add:
Interesting comments following the article above. In particular, the second one..
2. peskyvera 05/12/2014
>>Serious sanctions should be imposed on the US - it is they who financed the coup which brought neo-Nazis to power. What is unbelievable is the EU blindly and stupidly supporting this. Obedient US lap dogs.<<
Good observation. For a European ;D
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Maybe he has discovered he can not afford Eastern Ukraine?
Putin just doesn't discover things. Putin had contingency plans made up years ago for various scenarios. That's what smart people and nations do. They prepare for the future. Putin already knew what he was going to do if he ever lost control of his puppet president should he became a traitor or if he is overthrown. Putin knew what he was going to do if Ukraine got too cozy with the West. He knows his best opportunity to act is when Ukraine is at it's weakest.
Russia and the EU were willing to pump money into Ukraine before the revolution. No matter how bad Ukraine's economy, there's value in land and in humans. 45 million people and land the size of Texas has value. If I owned all that, I instantly become a player in this world. In this world, size and numbers matter. Influence over or annexation of Ukraine is beneficial to Russia.
Annexation of Ukraine is the sure way Putin will guarantee Ukraine will never join NATO. Installing a puppet president may be cheaper but another Ukrainian revolution is guaranteed to happen in the future. If Putin chooses puppet president, he can milk Ukraine with lopsided business deals approved by a pro Russian Ukrainian government without having to provide any money towards Ukraine's infrastructure and economic growth.
Since Crimea has been annexed, Russia is investing money there. There are costs. Russia signed a deal to have China build a bridge in Crimea as one example. Russia will probably pay China with resources for capital projects so it won't cost much out of pocket. It would cost Russia much more to rebuild Ukraine if they annexed it. Maybe it's best the West rebuild Ukraine first before annexation?
Interesting that today he has asked the EU to do more to support Ukraine financially yet Russia pulled the rug from under Ukraine by stopping their financial support (then again, that money probably needed to afford Crimea). He is basically demanding the west help Ukraine but will not allow Ukraine to move closer to the West, bit of a double standard.
Putin is smart. He hopes the West sends a few billion dollars to improve Ukraine and in the end, who do you think will benefit from that money? This thing may drag on for years before we find out.
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Putin's smart huh? His economy was supposed to grow 2.8% now it is stagnating and may contract.
Ukraine's economy will contract 7% because it is under the threat of war. Russia is stagnating and may contract not because of these pin prick sanctions but because investors know their money is not secure in Putinussia.
The verdict is upin the air if Putin is smart or in control, but he is exposed.
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Putin's smart huh? His economy was supposed to grow 2.8% now it is stagnating and may contract.
Ukraine's economy will contract 7% because it is under the threat of war. Russia is stagnating and may contract not because of these pin prick sanctions but because investors know their money is not secure in Putinussia.
The verdict is upin the air if Putin is smart or in control, but he is exposed.
Not fighting with you LT. Just adding in.
Contrast the real economic numbers with government distorted date and the US economy has been in decline since 2000 when offshoring started to take hold. This is why the average median income continues to drop and why 806,000 people last month gave up looking for a job. The government says these people are not unemployed because they decided to not work and just kick back and take it easy.
Have you ever wondered why the CPI, GDP and employment numbers run counter to your personal and business experiences? The problem lies in biased and often-manipulated government reporting.
Alternate Gross Domestic Product ChartThe SGS-Alternate GDP reflects the inflation-adjusted, or real, year-to-year GDP change, adjusted for distortions in government inflation usage and methodological changes that have resulted in a built-in upside bias to official reporting.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k131/Maxx_1953/sgs-gdp_zpsf4893d09.gif)
Annual Growth (Year-to-Year Percent Change) in GDP is shown in the chart above. This is not the annualized quarterly rate of change that serves as the headline number for the series.Note: The GDP headline number refers to the most-recent quarter’s annualized quarter-to-quarter rate of change (what that quarter’s percent quarter-to-quarter change would translate into if compounded for four consecutive quarters).
This can mean that the latest quarter can be reported with a positive annualized growth rate, while the actual annual rate of change is negative. Such was the case for the 3rd quarter of 2009.
[/font][/font]| [/b][/color][/font]Some Biographical & Additional Background Information |
Walter J. "John" Williams was born in 1949. He received an A.B. in Economics, cum laude, from Dartmouth College in 1971, and was awarded a M.B.A. from Dartmouth's Amos Tuck School of Business Administration in 1972, where he was named an Edward Tuck Scholar. During his career as a consulting economist, John has worked with individuals as well as Fortune 500 companies.
Although I am known formally as Walter J. Williams, my friends call me “John.” For 30 years, I have been a private consulting economist and, out of necessity, had to become a specialist in government economic reporting.
[/b][/color][/font] [/font] |
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Just cause we disagree Max doesn't mean I dislike you or don't agree with you on other issues such as the LYING about how awesome our economy is.
As a Euromaidan supporter, I am ashamed that the hashtag diplomats have hung Ukraine out to dry. Where is the IMF? US or EU?
Selfies don't stop bullets. Psaki, Nuland, Pyatt, Kerry, Clinton, Power, Obama, they are horrible. They make Baby Bush look good, I would root for Putin if he wasn't Hitler. If I was Russian I would probably be in Donetsk right now.
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Putin's smart huh? His economy was supposed to grow 2.8% now it is stagnating and may contract.
Pain will be shared. Russia's economy isn't the only one hurting based off current events. EU's economy will take a hit too and so will America's. We're already paying more at the pump and Russia is profiting from the higher fossil fuel prices.
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Just cause we disagree Max doesn't mean I dislike you or don't agree with you on other issues such as the LYING about how awesome our economy is.
Ditto
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We don't trade very much with Russia or Ukraine. So this crap about how sanctions are hurting us too is another Barack excuse. Besides if he gave a $h!t about Americans paying more for everything normally called inflation when we had a free media, the bastard would approve the Keystone pipeline and not ask for new regulations on the oil and gas companies.
(Full disclosure: I work for an oil & gas company.)
If you want to know what Putler will do next, read Mendy's blog:
http://russianreport.wordpress.com/2014/05/14/what-will-happen-next-in-ukraine/
5 reasons why the Putinistas are smoking locoweed:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/top-5-myths-about-us-meddling-in-ukraine/500208.html
The real reason the Biden suddenly cares about Ukraine:
http://canaryusa.com/ukrainian-oil-and-gas-wars/2/
Hint, its the 4th largest shale oil reserve in Europe.
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One alibi, I have always maintained that for BHO Ukraine is not about Ukraine, its about Syria. Ukraine splits Russia from the Assad Chemical deal. If the deal is dead, BHO er I mean Al Qaeda fakes another attack Obama can use USAF to help al Qaeda establish a Caliphate (Erdogan is going to be pissed if its not him.)
Too bad Saddam is not hear to smoke this peace pipe.
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FYI
Youtube URLs start with HTTPS the S is necessary
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FYI
Youtube URLs start with HTTPS the S is necessary
I don't know…...I have to remove the S to post a full screen youtube. Sandro taught me that. I''ll test that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1vndEG1Za4
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Uh, Sandro would be wrong :o
All Youtube URLs end with an S.. HyperTextTransportProtocolSecure. It's just like HTTP but encrypted, the same method is used for online banking or online credit card purchases. Youtube introduced using https across the board when they linked all their services like Gmail, G+ and Youtube to one user account to improve security.
just realized I said "starts with an S" before. Uh.. yeah, END with an S :/
BUT, it seems SMF software isn't aware of this. So Sandro is still wrong, but so is the forum software :P
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Uh, Sandro would be wrong :o All Youtube URLs end with an S..
They DON'T when I access it...maybe it's browser- or country-dependent ::)?
Youtube introduced using https across the board when they linked all their services like Gmail, G+ and Youtube to one user account to improve security...BUT, it seems SMF software isn't aware of this. So Sandro is still wrong, but so is the forum software :P
So YOU are wrong ;D, as evidenced by Maxx2's post:
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m1vndEG1Za4&fs=1&start="></param>
I don't know SMF's part in all this: is it configured to refuse inline attachments from secure sites?
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Doesn't look like https here.....
See the attachment
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Edward Lucas (not an American BTW): Obama wants Poland to delay missile defense shield.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardminiter/2014/05/15/why-putin-is-worries-about-poland-and-raytheon-but-not-obama/
Pretty much destroys the idea that US is behind this Nazi coup in Kiev ...
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sorry to muddy the topic but hey, what's a little more mud?!?!
Now you shouldn't need to remove the S I've done a bit of tinkering to remove it automatically.
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sorry to muddy the topic but hey, what's a little more mud?!?!
Now you shouldn't need to remove the S I've done a bit of tinkering to remove it automatically.
I have never seen the 's' to bother with removal. Just as Sandro mentioned, it may have to do with what type of browser you're using.
What I have noticed is the *=share* tag being added to the link lately in many of the vids. Sometimes they even add 'feature' which preempt the actual video with whatever commercial they need to insert. For example...
'http:youtube.%$#@!5245dh2feature=Share'
Removing that word seem to skip it altogether and goes directly to the video.
Any thoughts on this Dewed?
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Rebellion localized to Yanukovych's home province who according to some posers on this forum is the only legitimate President of Ukraine.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21602289-despite-all-fighting-country-could-just-hold-together-after-may-25th-battle?fsrc=scn/tw_ec/into_battle
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US Congressman grilling Nuland regarding the US new pending puppet colony about monies being finance for this regime change and ensuing 'non-repayment, matters concerning *legitimate elections*, neo-nazism, and mothers with flowers...LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TpZa4OMFVk&feature=share
Hunter Biden 2016!!!
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Youtube link inop
Tell us again how Yanukovych is President
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US Congressman grilling Nuland regarding the US new pending puppet colony about monies being finance for this regime change and ensuing 'non-repayment, matters concerning *legitimate elections*, neo-nazism, and mothers with flowers...LOL
The minute Rohrbacker said Yanukovych was legitimately elected I knew this had to be Russian propaganda.
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Now you shouldn't need to remove the S I've done a bit of tinkering to remove it automatically.
So I was RIGHT, after all 8) ;D?
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I'm still unclear on why some of us apparently require the S to see the vid, but.. I sorted out a way for the forum software to show the video regardless.. SO we were both wrong .. and RIGHT ! and now the forum software just doesn't care either way :clapping:
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East Ukrainian citizens teaming up with local police have surprisingly pushed back pro Russians and taken back their cities. Good sign civil war may not happen.
http://www.upi.com/top_news/world-news/2014/05/16/thousands-of-miners-and-steelworkers-seize-mariupol-ukraine-from-separatists/7761400252244/
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-key-group-of-ukraine-workers-pushed-rebels-away-in-the-east-2014-5
Last post, this post and a few future posts I'll be attaching some of my favorite Putin Action Comics. Got to be logged on to see the attachment.
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Why hasn't Putin invaded BillyB? Is it because he is such a nice guy?
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Russian war games in Belarus reveal scenarios that include invading the Baltic's and nuking Warsaw. Putin's Proton-m's failure to launch is a temporary relief.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/russia-rocket-accident/
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Why hasn't Putin invaded BillyB? Is it because he is such a nice guy?
IMHO, he has invaded. Putin is playing chess and winning. He has Crimea doesn't he? Suppose Crimea, unrest and ineffectual government in Ukraine is all he wanted? Checkmate
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Why hasn't Putin invaded BillyB? Is it because he is such a nice guy?
A lot of people have already stated their belief Putin has invaded. If you're talking large scale invasion, I've already mention Putin is preferring civil war with the east winning and handing all of Ukraine over to him.
Things in east Ukraine has not gone as smoothly as Crimea. If Putin continues unrest for years and hurting any progress a new pro West, Ukrainian government is trying to make, he'll eventually will get his civil war.
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The invasion is the best of both worlds. No huge casualties. No exposing how weak the Russian military is. The gas lines are still in tact. This is as close as a nuetron bomb as it gets. How will he maintain the legal fiction of prosperity when his economy is contracting and Crimean supermarkets look very Soviet now?
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The invasion is the best of both worlds. No huge casualties. No exposing how weak the Russian military is. The gas lines are still in tact. This is as close as a nuetron bomb as it gets. How will he maintain the legal fiction of prosperity when his economy is contracting and Crimean supermarkets look very Soviet now?
When Russia and China, along with the other BRIICS countries decides to ditch the US dollar in their trade, then let's see whoose economy will contract. That would be goodbye to the free rides of having the world currency and mindless borrowing and spending on the savings of the Asians. I don't know if that is what will happen, but as the west have declared economic war on Russia, it's a pretty good guess.
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When Russia and China, along with the other BRIICS countries decides to ditch the US dollar in their trade, then let's see whoose economy will contract. That would be goodbye to the free rides of having the world currency and mindless borrowing and spending on the savings of the Asians. I don't know if that is what will happen, but as the west have declared economic war on Russia, it's a pretty good guess.
As far as I’m concerned there is no good reason for the USA to have such high profile involvement. This ordeal is Ukraine’s and Russia’s issue. Life has been pretty darn good here in the USA overall, and for us to get hyper involved in places like Ukraine/Syria/Libya. Etc etc…is not necessary. Al though some would disagree, I believe we are pretty vulnerable…we borrow a lot of money to finance a high on the hog lifestyle…People are used to that here now, but things can change, and I believe decisions to get so involved in foreign affairs (in faraway regions) are going to hasten our downfall…there is no rule that says we HAVE to stick our snout in the world’s issues...a majority of the regular people here don’t want it but that doesn’t seem to matter to our ‘representatives’.
We should slow down/if not stop borrowing so much money…if tax revenues aren’t enough then stop spending more than is brought in..if that doesn’t work then increase taxes slightly. ..but NOBODY wants to see our taxes raised so we can go interfere in conflicts around the world.
Fathertime!
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The minute Rohrbacker said Yanukovych was legitimately elected I knew this had to be Russian propaganda.
Ha-hah
It's almost hysterical why the manner some of those dialogue were exchanged. I particularly liked how Nuland remarked that the investigation is forthcoming on the Kiev massacre but in the meantime the US will go ahead and pump billions into our new colony for now.
Repayment? Why worry. That's the purpose of placing Hunter & Archer @ Burisma for.
I suppose the right sector is far less of a threat to our interest in Ukraine than Russia. After all, that party doesn't have military capability compared to Russia and having them around is better than hiring contractors we normally do.
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This is the only way Ukraine maintains its current borders.....from within
http://www.upi.com/top_news/world-news/2014/05/16/thousands-of-miners-and-steelworkers-seize-mariupol-ukraine-from-separatists/7761400252244/
we'll see where this goes.....
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Oh how these Americans lie and lie and lie . . .
Eastern Ukrainian Coal Miner recounts how separatist thugs treated him in captivity:
http://www.rferl.mobi/a/eastern-ukraine-torture-weapon/25387572.html
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Eastern Ukraine Oligarchs Seek to Avoid Economic Disaster
Some more interesting aspects arising as Ukrainians have gradually fought back and are now getting organised to reject the Russian promoted separatists.Under the guise of politics the thugs have robbed,beaten,terrorised ,murdered people etc--the HUGE MAJORITY want a stable Ukraine-- and not with Russian meddling and interference. The t6terrorists are now on the back foot as Putin has not had the guts to carry on with a more obvious invasion that would have let to larger scale confrontation with the west.
The elections coming up will confirm the extent of the rejection of Putin & Russian ambitions in Ukraine as a whole.
http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/metinvest-patrol-mariupol-348264.html
http://www.voanews.com/content/eastern-ukraine-oligarchs-seek-to-avoid-economic-disaster/1916873.html
"In a potentially seismic shift in the power dynamics of eastern Ukraine, business leaders — claiming that secession would be economically disastrous for the region — this week began mobilizing industrial workers to rise up against armed separatists here and in a handful of other cities."
"Separatists who had met with the steel companies tried to win over the crowd, with mixed results.
An unidentified separatist leader addressed the crowd, saying, “The sense of this memorandum is to request the authorities in Kyiv to pull their troops back from the borders of Mariupol and to dismantle the roadblocks."
“Don't lie to people, don't try to trick us,” a female observer shouted back in Russian.
“Resign! Resign!" the crowd chanted to the separatist leader."
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JayH, you are turning into a real patriot. Who would have thought?
Scuttlebutt is that Ukraine will arm its citizens and put Strelkov's Nazis in the graveyard where they belong.
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Eastern Ukraine Oligarchs Seek to Avoid Economic Disaster
Some more interesting aspects arising as Ukrainians have gradually fought back and are now getting organised to reject the Russian promoted separatists.Under the guise of politics the thugs have robbed,beaten,terrorised ,murdered people etc--the HUGE MAJORITY want a stable Ukraine-- and not with Russian meddling and interference. The t6terrorists are now on the back foot as Putin has not had the guts to carry on with a more obvious invasion that would have let to larger scale confrontation with the west.
"
Hahaha, a couple months ago when discussing the ‘pending’ Russian invasion after Crimea, a poster stated that when the invasion DIDN’T happen, people would then start pounding their chest and begin proudly declaring those ‘crippling’ western sanctions were just too much for Russia to contemplate…..Reality check though is that Russia did not intend on invading!…if they did they would have... they could have rolled through E. Ukraine with little military resistance….of course there was no point though as it would just be a big headache afterwords, as I would think most E. Ukrainians would be happy with more autonomy and not an occupying force…
Fathertime!
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Huh? You do know Russians have invaded East Ukraine, right?
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Eastern Ukraine Oligarchs Seek to Avoid Economic Disaster
In Putin's Russia, economic disaster seeks Ukrainian Oligarchs. If you're not a pro Russian presidential candidate, your assets gets seized.
http://un1.tv/business/bz1705ua10-poroshenko-roshen-air.html
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When Russia and China, along with the other BRIICS countries decides to ditch the US dollar in their trade, then let's see whoose economy will contract. That would be goodbye to the free rides of having the world currency and mindless borrowing and spending on the savings of the Asians. I don't know if that is what will happen, but as the west have declared economic war on Russia, it's a pretty good guess.
It ain't going to happen there my bruddah. Seems how easily we forget. Do you recall the economic crisis of "08"? A fart of the U.S. economy rippled completely around the world. That should tell you how entrenched and reliant the world economies are to the dollar. They can't ditch it. It's the only thing holding their own economies together. When the dollar dies, it all dies, the world's economy. There is no one immune. Futhermore, that is likely to happen in our own lifetime IMHO.
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It ain't going to happen there my bruddah. Seems how easily we forget. Do you recall the economic crisis of "08"? A fart of the U.S. economy rippled completely around the world. That should tell you how entrenched and reliant the world economies are to the dollar. They can't ditch it. It's the only thing holding their own economies together. When the dollar dies, it all dies, the world's economy. There is no one immune. Futhermore, that is likely to happen in our own lifetime IMHO.
Well, several US Economist disagrees With you that the dollar will have forever life. It WILL crash and burn like all other paper currencies backed by nothing in history did. Only question is when. We don't know when or what exactly will happen, that's what makes it interesting to live in these times. I Guess there's a reason for Russia and China to spend dollars aquiring gold. Maybe we will see a gold backed New currency some years from now? You don't think that will happen?
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The problem with gold backed economies is that they aren't forgiving to monkey business. Politicians can't manipulate them as easily. So this Sino-Rusky doubloon is DOA.
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When Russia and China, along with the other BRIICS countries decides to ditch the US dollar in their trade, then let's see whoose economy will contract.
It ain't going to happen there my bruddah. Seems how easily we forget. Do you recall the economic crisis of "08"? A fart of the U.S. economy rippled completely around the world. That should tell you how entrenched and reliant the world economies are to the dollar. They can't ditch it. It's the only thing holding their own economies together. When the dollar dies, it all dies, the world's economy. There is no one immune. Futhermore, that is likely to happen in our own lifetime IMHO.
Well, several US Economist disagrees With you that the dollar will have forever life. It WILL crash and burn like all other paper currencies backed by nothing in history did. Only question is when.
Natural, you didn't read FP's post carefully.
He didn't say the US dollar won't crash (in fact he said it would, within our lifetime).
He said that the BRIC countries won't be ditching the US dollar before it crashes.
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Well, several US Economist disagrees With you that the dollar will have forever life. It WILL crash and burn like all other paper currencies backed by nothing in history did. Only question is when. We don't know when or what exactly will happen, that's what makes it interesting to live in these times. I Guess there's a reason for Russia and China to spend dollars aquiring gold. Maybe we will see a gold backed New currency some years from now? You don't think that will happen?
Canadaman is right. Reread my previous post. The dollar is the strongest of the world's currency and it is mighty unstable. Any country that drops the dollar as the reserve will see their own currency and economy collapse in a matter of months. This isn't an American thing Roy. International banking cartels have set it up in this manner and for a reason. Gold backed currencies don't fuel economies. It's all about the credit. Less than 1% of the worlds population control 99% of the wealth (notice I didn't say own). You seem to be whipping yourself up in a froth over the evil U.S. government and the evil dollar, it's misdirected, IMHO.
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You seem to be whipping yourself up in a froth over the evil U.S. government and the evil dollar, it's misdirected, IMHO.
I'm not whipping myself up to anything, just stating my opinion, as you do yours. It's kind of you to notice I talk about the evils of the US government, not the people. Many have a problem distinguishing between the two.
I don't think the dollar is evil. How can a currency be evil, it's just an instrument. It's quite possible that the fall of the dollar lead to the fall of all other currencies and when that happens I believe People will demand something else. Won't happen overnight of course, but I believe something big will happen eventually in the years to come. We will see. Best not to brush away all theories that does not support the status quo.
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I agree. What the government (republicrats and demmicans) is doing to the dollar is evil. And people have a right and will get an alternative currency.
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Gold backed currencies don't fuel economies. It's all about the credit.
They used to until a debt based monetary system was introduced a 101 years ago. It's been wars, debt and inflation ever since. However it is not that simple is it? That is bringing about a gold standard to back the dollar and other currencies. Keynesian economic policy would have to be shelved. It would be he who has the gold rules. United States claims it has most of the worlds gold reserves but they will not allow any outside agency to audit it. The German government put into a request back in 2012 to audit their gold held by the Fed but were refused. Why? Meanwhile the Chinese and Russian governments buy gold to add to their reserves. Why? What do their economists know that we here in America don't? Are they being silly or what? Why did Germany request 10% of it's gold holdings of 3500 tons held by the Fed be returned after their audit request was refused? Why did the Fed say it would take them 10 years? Why has only 5 tons of gold been returned to Germany in the last year and a half? What happened to Qaudaffi's 144 tons of gold?
Being in the gold business for the past 34 years I keep up on gold news.
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I'm not whipping myself up to anything, just stating my opinion, as you do yours. It's kind of you to notice I talk about the evils of the US government, not the people. Many have a problem distinguishing between the two.
I don't think the dollar is evil. How can a currency be evil, it's just an instrument. It's quite possible that the fall of the dollar lead to the fall of all other currencies and when that happens I believe People will demand something else. Won't happen overnight of course, but I believe something big will happen eventually in the years to come. We will see. Best not to brush away all theories that does not support the status quo.
Based on some of your earlier remarks concerning the dollar getting dropped as the reserve. If it's not the dollar, which is highly unlikely, it'll be another one and it will be manipulated in the same way. IMHO, we are well beyond demanding something else. The one world currency is the answer to the problems you've been describing here and in fact to most of the currency and distributions ills of the world. Be careful what you ask for.
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They used to until a debt based monetary system was introduced a 101 years ago. It's been wars, debt and inflation ever since. However it is not that simple is it? That is bringing about a gold standard to back the dollar and other currencies. Keynesian economic policy would have to be shelved. It would be he who has the gold rules. United States claims it has most of the worlds gold reserves but they will not allow any outside agency to audit it. The German government put into a request back in 2012 to audit their gold held by the Fed but were refused. Why? Meanwhile the Chinese and Russian governments buy gold to add to their reserves. Why? What do their economists know that we here in America don't? Are they being silly or what? Why did Germany request 10% of it's gold holdings of 3500 tons held by the Fed be returned after their audit request was refused? Why did the Fed say it would take them 10 years? Why has only 5 tons of gold been returned to Germany in the last year and a half? What happened to Qaudaffi's 144 tons of gold?
Being in the gold business for the past 34 years I keep up on gold news.
That all depends on which conspiracy theory one wishes to believe.
You do understand that the "Federal Reserve" is just a private institution that controls the money and banking of the entire country, right?
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That all depends on which conspiracy theory one wishes to believe.
You do understand that the "Federal Reserve" is just a private institution that controls the money and banking of the entire country, right?
About the Fed. Sure I do FP. I've known about that for years. "Conspiracy Theorist" and silly sounding words like truther and birther are Orwellian stop think words.
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The concept of a strong currency is misleading. Remember that the EUR was worth less than a dollar when it came into play. Went to 1.20 then 1.30 and now it hangs around the 1.40 level. Considering the size of the economies are roughly equal why is that? Which is truly 'stronger'?
The US has a long term strategy of keeping the value of the USD low in order to try and not only fight the financial crisis but to also try and combat trade deficit levels, almost impossible considering that the US economy is driven by services and not exports as is the case with larger EU economies such as Germany. This 'bubble' may one day burst if for some reason the USD is forced to show it's true worth.
I believe it's true worth is within parity or slightly less than EUR, somewhere within the 1 to 1.2 level.
China is probably the largest factor involved, from diversifying their currency holdings, mostly in the direction of EUR instead of USD.
As with any bubble, it will burst. The only variable is when.
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The concept of a strong currency is misleading. Remember that the EUR was worth less than a dollar when it came into play. Went to 1.20 then 1.30 and now it hangs around the 1.40 level. Considering the size of the economies are roughly equal why is that? Which is truly 'stronger'?
The US has a long term strategy of keeping the value of the USD low in order to try and not only fight the financial crisis but to also try and combat trade deficit levels, almost impossible considering that the US economy is driven by services and not exports as is the case with larger EU economies such as Germany. This 'bubble' may one day burst if for some reason the USD is forced to show it's true worth.
I believe it's true worth is within parity or slightly less than EUR, somewhere within the 1 to 1.2 level.
China is probably the largest factor involved, from diversifying their currency holdings, mostly in the direction of EUR instead of USD.
As with any bubble, it will burst. The only variable is when.
That's the easy one, when the international cartels decide to quit propping it up. They (the international cartels) do not oppose each other and they work in unison. It has little to nothing to do with popular demand or support. These are folks who start wars for no other reason than to finance them.
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As with any bubble, it will burst. The only variable is when.
With the dollar instead of it being a soap bubble perhaps it's a balloon? Maybe the air will dribble out slowly over time? That is everything and almost everyone gets poorer and poorer? I have seen this happening with people around me and with businesses I deal with.
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Remember that the EUR was worth less than a dollar when it came into play. Went to 1.20 then 1.30 and now it hangs around the 1.40 level. Considering the size of the economies are roughly equal why is that?
Interest rates, inflation, debt, fiscal deficits, and trade balances.
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They used to until a debt based monetary system was introduced a 101 years ago. It's been wars, debt and inflation ever since. However it is not that simple is it? That is bringing about a gold standard to back the dollar and other currencies. Keynesian economic policy would have to be shelved. It would be he who has the gold rules. United States claims it has most of the worlds gold reserves but they will not allow any outside agency to audit it. The German government put into a request back in 2012 to audit their gold held by the Fed but were refused. Why? Meanwhile the Chinese and Russian governments buy gold to add to their reserves. Why? What do their economists know that we here in America don't? Are they being silly or what? Why did Germany request 10% of it's gold holdings of 3500 tons held by the Fed be returned after their audit request was refused? Why did the Fed say it would take them 10 years? Why has only 5 tons of gold been returned to Germany in the last year and a half? What happened to Qaudaffi's 144 tons of gold?
Being in the gold business for the past 34 years I keep up on gold news.
I tend to think our economy will be ok for quite a while, if we don't go aggravating the world by being a pushy busybody in other nation's affairs....like we have been. From my perspective, if a small coalition of key countries decided to get off the dollar, who knows what could happen...at least from my perspective Obama has struck close to the right chord in Ukraine to this point!
Fathertime!
Fathertime!
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You and your viewpoint are irrelevant from my perspective. You are only semi-literate" , because if you read what I wrote you would see that I wrote: "I read that Russia was pulling out it's troops"...all that is required is that I would have read it... I bet the moment you walked out that door for the last time, the fellow employees started with the high fives and partying like it was 1999... and disinfecting that office of yours...
Fathertime!
Look who's talking about semi literate. Must be the massive head.
Even your fantasies are wrong. Heh, heh, heh
I'd tell you the reality but rather leave you semi literate. That is more a propos to your caricature. BTW, the troops are still there but their balls are shrinking the moment they saw the steelworkers join the fray. Heh, heh, heh
Try not to be so angry. It is the internet after all. Heh, heh, heh :D
Slava Ukrainy
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Joe Biden's son joins the Board of Directors in Ukrainian gas company. The best argument (though unarticulated) the Putinistas have against Euromaidan is that they would be trading one set of Oligarchs for another.
What say you?
Ooo, ooo, ooo
Did I told you I tripled my money in just three days? Thanks to Uncle Joe (and not Stalin) Heh, heh, heh
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The US has a long term strategy of keeping the value of the USD low in order to try and not only fight the financial crisis but to also try and combat trade deficit levels, almost impossible considering that the US economy is driven by services and not exports as is the case with larger EU economies such as Germany. This 'bubble' may one day burst if for some reason the USD is forced to show it's true worth.
A very serious question: Who or what is going to force that?
I know it is not going to be God because he can't.
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A very serious question: Who or what is going to force that?
I know it is not going to be God because he can't.
LOL. Must've been on vacation, Muzh?
This latest subject reminded me of Will Durant's quote.
A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within. The essential cause of Rome’s decline lay in her people, her morals, her class struggle, her failing trade, her bureaucratic despotism, her stifling taxes, her consuming wars.
We are witnessing this in Ukraine today. We are witnessing this in our home country, too. Slowly but surely.
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Quote from: W. Durant
A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within. The essential cause of Rome’s decline lay in her people, her morals, her class struggle, her failing trade, her bureaucratic despotism, her stifling taxes, her consuming wars.
We are witnessing this in Ukraine today. We are witnessing this in our home country, too. Slowly but surely.
And from Bill Bonner:
"A child born in America in 1900 came into the world naked and free of debt. Today, he pops into the world and is immediately swaddled in chains of debts. All his life he will have to pay them – debts from bonuses paid to government employees in 1986… from bombs dropped in 2003… from boondoggles built in 1995… checks written in 1974… promises made to old people in 2002… the expenses of hurricanes in 2005… and so on. The poor child will have to drag around with him the entire pathetic history of America’s financial decline.
‘Stay the course,’ said Bernanke in 2005. ‘We cannot stop now,’ added Bush. “There is more work to be done,” chimes Obama.
“Damned b**tards,” the next generation is likely to grumble."
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A very serious question: Who or what is going to force that?
I know it is not going to be God because he can't.
If it happens it will be the Americans themselves that make it happen.
Noblese oblige is in my opinion very much applicable to the US. There are however some very powerful forces in the US who do not feel this applies to them.
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Look who's talking about semi literate. Must be the massive head.
Even your fantasies are wrong. Heh, heh, heh
I'd tell you the reality but rather leave you semi literate. That is more a propos to your caricature. BTW, the troops are still there but their balls are shrinking the moment they saw the steelworkers join the fray. Heh, heh, heh
Try not to be so angry. It is the internet after all. Heh, heh, heh :D
Slava Ukrainy
judging by the tenor of your posts it appears that you are upset again...
I was saying right along that there would be no Russian invasion of mainland E. Ukraine because it would create too many hassles for Russia...it twas YOU who not only disagreed, but also attempted to silence those that had a differing opinion...of course you FAILED to do so. To this point you have been wrong about Crimea and wrong about E. Ukraine...I'd like to to see your next prediction so I can wager the other way, it seems like almost a sure thing...0/2 so far!
Fat-headed Fathertime!
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There is no invasion? Then who is Colonel Firkin and why is he on YouTube whining that Eastern Ukrainians are joining his ranks. Why are all his men carrying AK-100s? Why are all his journalists carrying MANPADS?
I hate agreeing with mad Puerto Rican but he has you nailed to the bar. Have fun praising Obama while your cohorta denounce him.
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There is no invasion? Then who is Colonel Firkin and why is he on YouTube whining that Eastern Ukrainians are joining his ranks. Why are all his men carrying AK-100s? Why are all his journalists carrying MANPADS?
I hate agreeing with mad Puerto Rican but he has you nailed to the bar. Have fun praising Obama while your cohorta denounce him.
Ukraine is a nation of 40plus million people. IF Russia is able to invade by sending in a few rabble rousers (assuming they did) then they must be something special! It appears to me that the Ukrainians are in a confrontation with other Ukrainians mostly. There is no Russian tanks, no planes, no bombs, no invasion of the mainland…there are troops taking a nap at the border though….
I find it amusing to see how difficult it is for people to admit they were mistaken rather than be a slave and do contortions to a position that is no longer viable. Heck, had I been mistaken, I would have been ok with saying so…but as it turns out to this point it hasn’t played out that way. It is setting up about the way I thought it would...thankfully we (the USA) have signaled that we aren’t going to do much and so long as that is the case, things have a good chance of working out fine.
Fathertime!
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...things have a good chance of working out fine.
Fathertime!
Maybe...but try telling that to the families of those people (from both sides) who have been kidnapped/arrested, tortured and/or killed over the last few months. While I can understand that you don't want the USA to get involved at all (and I appreciate why), I can't understand why you don't seem to have the slightest empathy/sympathy towards those who have actually been caught up in this conflict.
You may not be able to do anything about it (and I don't expect you to), but your posts indicate that you simply don't care in the slightest. Turn this situation around slightly - would your attitude be different if it were your wife's country that was having these sorts of problems with one of its neighbours? If your attitude would change in that case, try sparing a thought or two for those members on here who DO have family in the affected area.
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Maybe...but try telling that to the families of those people (from both sides) who have been kidnapped/arrested, tortured and/or killed over the last few months. While I can understand that you don't want the USA to get involved at all (and I appreciate why), I can't understand why you don't seem to have the slightest empathy/sympathy towards those who have actually been caught up in this conflict.
You may not be able to do anything about it (and I don't expect you to), but your posts indicate that you simply don't care in the slightest. Turn this situation around slightly - would your attitude be different if it were your wife's country that was having these sorts of problems with one of its neighbours? If your attitude would change in that case, try sparing a thought or two for those members on here who DO have family in the affected area.
Well I could have used a different set of words there regarding how things are working out as people have been killed on both sides….so for their families it will not ever work out fine…these events in history just about always produce blood
Regarding sympathy/empathy…I believe the best that can be done is to make the push for the right decisions to minimize unnecessary deaths…me giving lip service about how terrible things are is as useful as a hatful of busted assholes…I disagree with you though, I’ve spared plenty of thoughts to others and have been willing to listen. In this case have responded to a post where I was specifically mentioned.
Fathertime!
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Maybe...but try telling that to the families of those people (from both sides) who have been kidnapped/arrested, tortured and/or killed over the last few months. While I can understand that you don't want the USA to get involved at all (and I appreciate why), I can't understand why you don't seem to have the slightest empathy/sympathy towards those who have actually been caught up in this conflict.
You may not be able to do anything about it (and I don't expect you to), but your posts indicate that you simply don't care in the slightest. Turn this situation around slightly - would your attitude be different if it were your wife's country that was having these sorts of problems with one of its neighbours? If your attitude would change in that case, try sparing a thought or two for those members on here who DO have family in the affected area.
I have lived there which most here cannot say the same.
With that said, if you can't discuss something without getting emotional then you shouldn't be discussing it at all. I think some of you guys need to realize people don't need to make you feel all warm and fuzzy by posting how you think they should be posting.
I think that is why some of the guys are having a problem with FT's posts. While things are not fine, I find it pretty easy to understand what FT means by it. Things could be a lot worst.
The killer, for me, is many of you guys were clapping hands when the shit hit the fan in Kiev talking about how good it was to throw the bum out. What happened afterwards where the repercussions of Kiev that many here applauded.
Time for many here to look in the mirror.
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The concept of a strong currency is misleading. Remember that the EUR was worth less than a dollar when it came into play. Went to 1.20 then 1.30 and now it hangs around the 1.40 level. Considering the size of the economies are roughly equal why is that? Which is truly 'stronger'?
The US has a long term strategy of keeping the value of the USD low in order to try and not only fight the financial crisis but to also try and combat trade deficit levels, almost impossible considering that the US economy is driven by services and not exports as is the case with larger EU economies such as Germany. This 'bubble' may one day burst if for some reason the USD is forced to show it's true worth.
I believe it's true worth is within parity or slightly less than EUR, somewhere within the 1 to 1.2 level.
China is probably the largest factor involved, from diversifying their currency holdings, mostly in the direction of EUR instead of USD.
As with any bubble, it will burst. The only variable is when.
I remember first working over in Australia and the exchange was 1 AUD to .55 US. I was pretty happy because I was still paid in US dollars at the time.
Over the next couple of years it raised to 1 AUD to .70 US.
Now it's like 1 AUD to .92 US. I think the AUD even surpassed the US dollar for some time.
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I have lived there which most here cannot say the same.
With that said, if you can't discuss something without getting emotional then you shouldn't be discussing it at all. I think some of you guys need to realize people don't need to make you feel all warm and fuzzy by posting how you think they should be posting.
I think that is why some of the guys are having a problem with FT's posts. While things are not fine, I find it pretty easy to understand what FT means by it. Things could be a lot worst.
The killer, for me, is many of you guys were clapping hands when the shit hit the fan in Kiev talking about how good it was to throw the bum out. What happened afterwards where the repercussions of Kiev that many here applauded.
Time for many here to look in the mirror.
Start with yourself.
People are suffering and you (& others) go into 'who gives a shit' mode and have the temerity to be shocked at those who oppose your ill wishing.
I suppose for some people the world is a grand place omitting details here, casting aspersions there and blind eyes everywhere and marveling at the stupidity of those who patiently and politely disagree. May you reap what you sow, gentlemen . . .
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Start with yourself.
People are suffering and you (& others) go into 'who gives a shit' mode and have the temerity to be shocked at those who oppose your ill wishing.
I suppose for some people the world is a grand place omitting details here, casting aspersions there and blind eyes everywhere and marveling at the stupidity of those who patiently and politely disagree. May you reap what you sow, gentlemen . . .
I can definitely see why you avoid mirrors. You are all over this board calling people names so don't think for a minute you are patient and polite. You have got to be the most disturbed individual I have ever seen on these boards. You got some mental issues, son, and shouldn't even contemplate bringing a woman from a different culture into your mess.
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d marveling at the stupidity of those who patiently and politely disagree. May you reap what you sow, gentlemen . . .
If you actually believe that this is how you have behaved, then you are mistaken.
Fathertime!
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Follow your own advice.
FT, how many armies use the AK 100? Which news agency carries MANPADS with them?
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Follow your own advice.
FT, how many armies use the AK 100? Which news agency carries MANPADS with them?
I don't see an invasion...the major news organizations are not reporting there is a Russian invasion of the mainland.
Fathertime!
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fwiw
im very happy to say it looks like the possibility of a full scale russain invasion of ukraine has started to ebb ,
i say full scale as their has already been russian backed troops and affiliated personel in crimea AS AN INVASION and also in s/east ukraine imho
however the last few days people power may have swayed a loyalty shift away from the pro russians
they seem to be losing support and direction ,
hopefully it isnt a false sense of calm before sundays election
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With the dollar instead of it being a soap bubble perhaps it's a balloon? Maybe the air will dribble out slowly over time?
There are always countries trying to weaken the significance of the dollar and weaken America. The EU using the Euro and Russia and China recently in the link below. Their bond is getting stronger. Take care of what you have(America) because once it's lost, it's hard to get back.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/20/russia-china-bankdeal.html
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There are always countries trying to weaken the significance of the dollar and weaken America. The EU using the Euro and Russia and China recently in the link below. Their bond is getting stronger. Take care of what you have(America) because once it's lost, it's hard to get back.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/20/russia-china-bankdeal.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/20/russia-china-bankdeal.html)
As a US citizen, I like the idea of America losing some of it's influence. Things like FATCA has been terrible. I would welcome countries telling the US to screw off when they try and bully them into working for the IRS.
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There are always countries trying to weaken the significance of the dollar and weaken America. The EU using the Euro and Russia and China recently in the link below. Their bond is getting stronger. Take care of what you have(America) because once it's lost, it's hard to get back.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/20/russia-china-bankdeal.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/20/russia-china-bankdeal.html)
Hey Billy!
Thanks for linking that article....Although it is a small step it is exactly this is the type of result I was hoping NOT to see regarding the USA and our worldwide interference, Nuland/Ukraine being the latest...we have had it good here for a good long while by borrowing money, but it seems clear to me that much of the world is tiring of us trying to throw our weight around...when large nations like China and Russia start taking steps like this, we should have concern, not panic..
Fathertime!
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this is the type of result I was hoping NOT to see regarding the USA and our worldwide interference, Nuland/Ukraine being the latest...
Undermining US supremacy are the goals of many nations, including our friends in Europe, long before Ukraine and it will continue after Ukraine. It's one more reason I think the US needs to keep an active foreign policy. EU group of nations and now China and Russia partnership shows strength in numbers and partnering with other nations is a must.
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Hey Billy!
Thanks for linking that article....Although it is a small step it is exactly this is the type of result I was hoping NOT to see regarding the USA and our worldwide interference, Nuland/Ukraine being the latest...we have had it good here for a good long while by borrowing money, but it seems clear to me that much of the world is tiring of us trying to throw our weight around...when large nations like China and Russia start taking steps like this, we should have concern, not panic..
Fathertime!
The BRICS countries were already talking about dropping the dollar after everything crashed.
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Prince Charles,currently in Canada,has likened the actions of Putin to Hitler.
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Putler also successfully tested an ICBM rocket and yet his fanboys will spin this as a win win.
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...You have got to be the most disturbed individual I have ever seen on these boards. You got some mental issues, son, and shouldn't even contemplate bringing a woman from a different culture into your mess.
Contemplate bringing a woman into his mess?!? LArdTiberius disturbed individual? LOL!
You mean you missed this Choo-Choo! (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17146.0) trainwreck?
Read the thread as there's some real doozy confessions in there. To think he actually even paid an attorney to file the K-1 cause he's OCD. He's here 24/7. Look at what time his last post was. That's everyday and night of every week. What's even more hysterical is, predictably, he BLAMES the woman and her cultural background men like him usually do, LOL.
One of the whackos in this site that epitomizes my definition of an MOBer. But hey, we, apparently, at RWD proudly foster whackjobs like him here. But no need for insult really. It's enough knowing somewhere out there he's waking up in the morning to live another day.
The guy's jmana with eating disorder.
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Since you brought it up, the comic book is published:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00K65KJP0/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?keywords=The%20Kursk%20%231&qid=1400598253&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1
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As a US citizen, I like the idea of America losing some of it's influence. Things like FATCA has been terrible. I would welcome countries telling the US to screw off when they try and bully them into working for the IRS.
I had mentioned early in this thread that sooner than later, this entire fiasco will only net the US being hung out to dry by our European counterparts. The handwriting had always been etched on the global political wall.
The US should've stopped at the Balkans when they had the chance. Nuland's Ukrainian bake sale doesn't seem to be attracting too many willing customers...too bad really as many Ukrainians had to die and suffer because of our country's hegemony.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_EUROPE_UKRAINE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
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As a US citizen, I like the idea of America losing some of it's influence. Things like FATCA has been terrible. I would welcome countries telling the US to screw off when they try and bully them into working for the IRS.
What is your beef with FATCA? It seemingly is necessary to prevent tax evasion by fat cats who otherwise would hide billions overseas and not pay Federal taxes due.
I have no experience with FATCA. Perhaps it creates onerous requirements. I worked overseas in the 1970s and did not have to pay FIT by staying in foreign countries for at least 330 days in a tax year (IIRC). That was a simple rule.
Strange how FATCA almost spells FAT CAT.
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I have lived there which most here cannot say the same.
With that said, if you can't discuss something without getting emotional then you shouldn't be discussing it at all. I think some of you guys need to realize people don't need to make you feel all warm and fuzzy by posting how you think they should be posting.
Emotional? Hardly. I certainly don't need validation of my feelings from anyone on this forum.
I think that is why some of the guys are having a problem with FT's posts. While things are not fine, I find it pretty easy to understand what FT means by it. Things could be a lot worst.
Me too, as I wrote above.
The killer, for me, is many of you guys were clapping hands when the shit hit the fan in Kiev talking about how good it was to throw the bum out. What happened afterwards where the repercussions of Kiev that many here applauded.
Time for many here to look in the mirror.
I'm glad that Yanukovych is out, and I make no apology for that. Had Russia not interfered by annexing Crimea and trying to destabilise the east with its propoganda and covert operatives, the new leadership might have had a decent crack at being able to at least start meaningful discussions with those wanting more autonomy and, in time, coming up with a solution that's acceptable to the majority of the people concerned.
Part of the problem, as I see it, is that so many people want instant gratification rather than allowing the interim leadership time to start overcoming the giant hurdles left behind by Yanukovych and his cronies. A Treasury shortfall of the equivalent of 70 billion dollars will take an awful lot of fixing, and the Ukrainian people will have wear most of that cost. Nobody in a Western country would expect a new leadership group to be able to plug such a gap in such a short time, nor to instantly rewrite a whole pile of legislation to make people happy, so why do so many expect it to happen in Ukraine?
Let's get Sunday's election out of the way and hope that the new President can find a way forward.
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I'm glad that Yanukovych is out, and I make no apology for that. Had Russia not interfered by annexing Crimea and trying to destabilise the east with its propoganda and covert operatives, the new leadership might have had a decent crack at being able to at least start meaningful discussions with those wanting more autonomy and, in time, coming up with a solution that's acceptable to the majority of the people concerned.
Ha! Is that what you think? Hilarious how you believe every bad thing had to do with Russia. The meaningful discussions should have happened in Kiev before the illegal coup took over. The US/EU shouldn't have interfered in Kiev. Russia didn't need to be involved for plenty of people to be pissed off at what happened in Kiev. You guys are lying to yourselves to think otherwise.
We will just wait to see who the next President will be. I have a feeling it will be the same person Nuland stated would be president. I am sure it will just be a coincidence and guys like you and Billy will claim fair elections. Maybe she is a fortune teller. ;)
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She is a bitch. But the idea that the West (Eu, US, IMF, take your pick) is handling this competently is questionable.
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Ha! Is that what you think? Hilarious how you believe every bad thing had to do with Russia. The meaningful discussions should have happened in Kiev before the illegal coup took over. The US/EU shouldn't have interfered in Kiev. Russia didn't need to be involved for plenty of people to be pissed off at what happened in Kiev. You guys are lying to yourselves to think otherwise.
Of course there are people pissed of with what happened in Kiev. Think of all those people who benefited from the corruption or their close ties to Yanukovich and his administration.
Except for these small armed groups of people creating chaos in the east, where are the masses opposed to the current government? Is the media suppressing news about huge rallies against the current government?
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Of course there are people pissed of with what happened in Kiev. Think of all those people who benefited from the corruption or their close ties to Yanukovich and his administration.
Except for these small armed groups of people creating chaos in the east, where are the masses opposed to the current government? Is the media suppressing news about huge rallies against the current government?
Man, we got some BillyB logic going on in here.
Ah, the people pissed off are only small groups of people causing chaos. Next you will be telling me Kiev protesters were revolutionaries that represented most of Ukraine. Don't be so daft.
Only an idiot would think only those that benefited directly from corruption would be pissed off. All the politicians are corrupt in Ukraine. Don't think for a second most Ukrainians don't know this.
Next you will be telling me that Nuland opened up a fortune cookie and now knows who will be the next President.
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Man, we got some BillyB logic going on in here.
Ah, the people pissed off are only small groups of people causing chaos. Next you will be telling me Kiev protesters were revolutionaries that represented most of Ukraine. Don't be so daft.
Only an idiot would think only those that benefited directly from corruption would be pissed off. All the politicians are corrupt in Ukraine. Don't think for a second most Ukrainians don't know this.
Next you will be telling me that Nuland opened up a fortune cookie and now knows who will be the next President.
and you will be telling us that Russia has not invaded Ukraine. LFU FU.
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:ROFL:
I think you're missing the important closing line -
*Google me*
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I have lived there which most here cannot say the same.
What you're trying to say is that your view of what's going on in Ukraine is better than ours.
I can ask two Ukrainian people who lived in Ukraine all their lives and ask what they think is going on in Ukraine and I could get two different answers based on if they're pro West or pro Russian. What's going on in Ukraine has nothing to do with the amount of time YOU or they lived there.
Yanukovych is ousted. If you and a very few others still think he's president, ask that his name be put on the ballot for the May 25 election, the election Yanukovych himself planned. Crying about Yanukovych's ousting over and over and over here isn't going to get people to change their minds to see your point of view. P.S. people aren't that dumb. You can state your opinion just once and we get it.
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What is your beef with FATCA? It seemingly is necessary to prevent tax evasion by fat cats who otherwise would hide billions overseas and not pay Federal taxes due.
I have no experience with FATCA. Perhaps it creates onerous requirements. I worked overseas in the 1970s and did not have to pay FIT by staying in foreign countries for at least 330 days in a tax year (IIRC). That was a simple rule.
Strange how FATCA almost spells FAT CAT.
The devil is in the details Gator. The rules imposed by the USG to other nations banks make it so they no longer want to have American customers. It is too much hassle and risk for them. They risk having their American based assets seized if they don't comply. Another nations sovereignty and laws are not respected by the same folks who made the lives of the Tea partiers hell. Audits and so on. Even now Americans have to contact the Department of Treasury and submit a document if they open a foreign bank account. There is a $10,000 yearly fine if they don't whether they knew this or not. Just recently the State Department is told by these folks not to issue passports to any Americans owing more 50K in taxes. Then there is Obamacare and assess to bank accounts by these very same folks. So what is next?
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What you're trying to say is that your view of what's going on in Ukraine is better than ours.
No, that isn't even close to what I was saying but it doesn't surprise me you can't follow a conversation and comprehend.
Yanukovych is ousted. If you and a very few others still think he's president, ask that his name be put on the ballot for the May 25 election, the election Yanukovych himself planned. Crying about Yanukovych's ousting over and over and over here isn't going to get people to change their minds to see your point of view. P.S. people aren't that dumb. You can state your opinion just once and we get it.
Billy, Billy, there you go again repeating yourself.
Why would Yanu run again when the US already hand picked the next president? We will follow your logic Billy, if the person elected as president is the same person Nuland mentioned then we know it is a scam election. Sound about right?
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Or maybe the person Nuland mentioned would actually be the best option as President of Ukraine for the people of Ukraine.
There's a novel thought for the usual pro Putin/anti west posters on here. :rolleyes:
Very few of whom actually seem to be living in Russia under the wonderful rule of Putler..I wonder why ?
Hypocricy is the word that springs to mind.
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There is a lot of legitimate criticism of the Euromaidan government, Poroshenko and US policy. You wouldn't know it by reading the posts of the Putinistas. The Forbes piece on Magnitsky's influence on the Oligarchs. Again the moral authority of Euromaidan falls apart if Ukraine replaces one set of Oligarchs with another. With the Ukrainian economy due to shrink 10% this year, that Jeremiad maybe realized.
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Or maybe the person Nuland mentioned would actually be the best option as President of Ukraine for the people of Ukraine.
There's a novel thought for the usual pro Putin/anti west posters on here. :rolleyes:
Well there you go, forget elections because the US/EU knows better. I'm sure everything they are doing is for the good of the people.
Very few of whom actually seem to be living in Russia under the wonderful rule of Putler..I wonder why ?
I know you probably can't grasp this, but I will try to use simple words and easy to understand sentences. Just because some of us have a problem with the US/EU interfering in Ukraine doesn't mean we agree with what Russia has done.
I know it doesn't fit into your black and white simple world. I hope it didn't hurt your brain too much trying to understand.
Hypocricy is the word that springs to mind.
Oh, that came up in a few of our minds when Kiev protesters took over government buildings, vandalized public structures, started fires, threw stones, Molotov cocktails and shot guns at police. You guys were cheering "REVOLUTION" and now it is happening in other parts of Ukraine you simpletons are yelling "TERRORISTS".
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Did I miss something ?
Exactly when did the Kiev protestors invade and steal another countries land ?
As for simpletons,well you need to look in the mirror for the definition of that LFU.
Simpletons are the ones who believe the conspiracy theories..and that would be you.
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Did I miss something ?
Exactly when did the Kiev protestors invade and steal another countries land ?
You must have missed it when they took over government buildings and set things on fire. Maybe that is normal where live but that wouldn't have happened here. Hell, a bunch of people picketing McDonald's corp head quarters were arrested here and they didn't even bring Molotov cocktails with them.
You seem to have a fetish for Putin and can't see past Russia. Maybe you should stop looking at shirtless pictures of Putin. You seem to be obsessing.
Simpletons are the ones who believe the conspiracy theories..and that would be you.
Yeah, I wish there was some evidence like a recorded phone conversation or a paper trail of cash.
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Paper trail of cash?
Prove it.
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LFU,
A paper trail of cash ?
Is this another one of your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories again ?..yawn :rolleyes
Show the proof ,or are you just full of hot air ?
And your feeble attempt at deflection doesn't work..so once again i'll ask you which other country did the Kiev protestors invade and steal land from ?
And while you're at it,show us where the Kiev protestors were chanting USA,USA or even Engerland,Engerland ,waving those countries flags,and asking those countries to invade.
Whereas of course there is plenty of film of the pro Russian seperatists ,waving Russian flags,chanting Russia,Russia and inviting Russia to invade Ukraine,in between shooting down Ukraine Helicopters..
Rather a large difference there,even in your world where everything is in grey and full of conspiracies
Your comments about Putin sound a bit gay by the way ..shows how your mind works..that sure isn't a grey area ;D
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LFU,
A paper trail of cash ?
Is this another one of your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories again ?..yawn :rolleyes
Show the proof ,or are you just full of hot air ?
The stuff has already been posted on here. Simpletons like you can't seem to grasp facts in front of them.
And your feeble attempt at deflection doesn't work..so once again i'll ask you which other country did the Kiev protestors invade and steal land from ?
You mean how you are attempting to deflect what protestors did in Kiev and start talking about Crimea. Yeah, it doesn't work.
And while you're at it,show us where the Kiev protestors were chanting USA,USA or even Engerland,Engerland ,waving those countries flags,and asking those countries to invade.
Wow, chanting is your evidence that US/EU had nothing to do with it? Hilariously simple minded.
Rather a large difference there,even in your world where everything is in grey and full of conspiracies
You got me. There was chanting and that is a world of difference.
Your comments about Putin sound a bit gay by the way ..shows how your mind works..that sure isn't a grey area ;D
You're the one bringing up Putin. I was talking bout what happened in Kiev. Either embrace your obsession or get some help with it man. One or the other.
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I'm not the one needing help LFU..that dubious honour falls to you : )))
You're the one who brought up fantasies about shirtless Putin..like I said shows how your mind works LOL
Still avoiding the question of which country the Kiev protestors invaded and stole land from I see.
And no proof provided of the paper cash trail...just you referring to previous conspiracy theory gibberish posted. :rolleyes:
So,just another internet warrior full of anti-west BS,as I suspected.
You're probably one of those trolls that's been infesting the comments sections of the western media..spouting off their anti-west propaganda...but still living there of course.
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I'm not the one needing help LFU..that dubious honour falls to you : )))
Still avoiding the question of which country the Kiev protestors invaded and stole land from I see.
I take you it you are in favor of taking over government buildings, defacing public property, throwing molotov cocktails and shooting at police? You seem to be avoiding those acts as if they never happened. I must admit, you and others here seemed to relish in that type of violence yet would not want to live in that type of environment.
And no proof provided of the paper cash trail...just you referring to previous conspiracy theory gibberish posted. :rolleyes:
Yeah, nothing like real theories like no chanting of the US so there can't be any involvement by the US. You must be in some high level think tank to come up with that type of stuff.
I always loved this video.
http://youtu.be/Hvds2AIiWLA
So,just another internet warrior full of anti-west BS,as I suspected.
Ha! I found a video of you contemplating the events as they unfold in Ukraine.
(http://global3.memecdn.com/retard-cat_o_308113.gif)
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LFU, provide proof of cash trail or STFU. Its just that simple.
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Man, we got some BillyB logic going on in here.
Ah, the people pissed off are only small groups of people causing chaos. Next you will be telling me Kiev protesters were revolutionaries that represented most of Ukraine. Don't be so daft.
Only an idiot would think only those that benefited directly from corruption would be pissed off. All the politicians are corrupt in Ukraine. Don't think for a second most Ukrainians don't know this.
Next you will be telling me that Nuland opened up a fortune cookie and now knows who will be the next President.
I am fully aware most Ukrainians know their politicians are corrupt, it's the peaceful protests against the corruption that started it all, and those did not only take place in Kiev.
Saw an interesting quote about what going on in the east somewhere, 5% of the people are against the new regime in Kiev, 5% are for and 90% don't care. Suspect there is a lot of truth in that statement, yet those 5% against seem to think they are acting on behalf of everyone. Same article mentioned supporters of a United Ukraine being threatened by the separatists... And here Putin has us belief it is the Russians in Ukraine that are being threatened.
As for the people in Kiev, they did not speak for everyone but they spoke for a lot more people than those groups in the east (and by group in Kiev I mean the vast majority who we're protesting peacefully before the anti protest laws were passed and still protested peacefully after that law was passed)
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Or maybe the person Nuland mentioned would actually be the best option as President of Ukraine for the people of Ukraine.
There's a novel thought for the usual pro Putin/anti west posters on here. :rolleyes:
Very few of whom actually seem to be living in Russia under the wonderful rule of Putler..I wonder why ?
Hypocricy is the word that springs to mind.
I'm i'm not seeing where hypocrisy fits in with this particular point. You seem to be saying that if somebody isn't living under Putin they are unable to comment if their opinion takes into account what appears to be the Russian perspective. I don't see how that is hypocrisy.
You're probably one of those trolls that's been infesting the comments sections of the western media..spouting off their anti-west propaganda...but still living there of course.
I doubt LFU is posting anti-western propaganda on message boards all over town... For me, I believe we (US citizens) should continue to speak our piece about our foreign policy. When residents of outside countries make demands about what our country should be doing, I don't think it should matter very much in terms of what we wind up doing. I happen to really like life here in the US of A...and have concerns it is going to get all screwed up by getting too involved abroad. We don't NEED to be in Ukraine, we don't need to be attempting to sway elections, we don't need to be facilitating the assassination of foreign leaders which is what I believe we have done/been doing.
Fathertime!
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I am fully aware most Ukrainians know their politicians are corrupt, it's the peaceful protests against the corruption that started it all, and those did not only take place in Kiev.
Saw an interesting quote about what going on in the east somewhere, 5% of the people are against the new regime in Kiev, 5% are for and 90% don't care. Suspect there is a lot of truth in that statement, yet those 5% against seem to think they are acting on behalf of everyone. Same article mentioned supporters of a United Ukraine being threatened by the separatists... And here Putin has us belief it is the Russians in Ukraine that are being threatened.
As for the people in Kiev, they did not speak for everyone but they spoke for a lot more people than those groups in the east (and by group in Kiev I mean the vast majority who we're protesting peacefully before the anti protest laws were passed and still protested peacefully after that law was passed)
I like to think the violent people are in the minority.
That doesn't mean there aren't a good deal of people who didn't like what happened in Kiev. You seem to be thinking people will want to protest when people have been getting beaten, shot and burned alive.
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Where's the money train LFU? FT, if those little green men wasn't a Russian invasion for e what are they?
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From USA (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/21/fact-sheet-us-crisis-support-package-ukraine), From EU (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/rada-ratifies-memorandum-on-eu-macro-financial-aid-of-1-billion-euros-348600.html). There are also video bits previously provided upthread stated both by Ukraine's representative and US & EU's. Despite the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961's by-laws, we are financially supporting an illegitimate government as a result of a coup.
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FT, if those little green men wasn't a Russian invasion for e what are they?
You have intentionally failed to accurately state the position I hold, which has been repeated numerous times. Your lack of honor always shines through.
Fathertime!
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You have intentionally failed to accurately state the position I hold, which has been repeated numerous times. Your lack of honor always shines through.
Fathertime!
Simple questions and no name calling FT . . . own it!
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Simple questions and no name calling FT . . . own it!
You haven’t seen me try to weasel out of the position I’ve taken so I’ve owned it… I’ll let you start in with the names as you always do…as to your disingenuous question, it has been answered numerous times by me, and my mind hasn't changed about what occurred in Crimea. It is odd how much you care to read my position over and over and over, instead of making your own case.
Fathertime!
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I see why you praise Obama.
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For me, I believe we (US citizens) should continue to speak our piece about our foreign policy. When residents of outside countries make demands about what our country should be doing, I don't think it should matter very much in terms of what we wind up doing. I happen to really like life here in the US of A...and have concerns it is going to get all screwed up by getting too involved abroad. We don't NEED to be in Ukraine, we don't need to be attempting to sway elections, we don't need to be facilitating the assassination of foreign leaders which is what I believe we have done/been doing.
Fathertime!
FT thing is , america for its own vested interests in that region has been involved in the joint removal of ukraines nuclear weapons, america with others signed the budapest memorandum, thus your country/gov ''IS ''involved, & it has by being a signatory placed itself & its people under an expectation from ukraine ,
now whether 20 years later the populace likes it or even agrees does not change that fact.
where the american gov went astray when setting the budapest deal up was in not factoring in the long term possibility that ukraine may be into the future under threat from russia and they would call them on their commitment
as i think the US never has intended to invade either ukraine or russia there mind set [foreign policy strategys ] didnt conceive the reverse
SX
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I doubt LFU is posting anti-western propaganda on message boards all over town... For me, I believe we (US citizens) should continue to speak our piece about our foreign policy. When residents of outside countries make demands about what our country should be doing, I don't think it should matter very much in terms of what we wind up doing. I happen to really like life here in the US of A...and have concerns it is going to get all screwed up by getting too involved abroad. We don't NEED to be in Ukraine , we don't need to be attempting to sway elections, we don't need to be facilitating the assassination of foreign leaders which is what I believe we have done/been doing.
Fathertime!
FT, personally speaking, I had long range plans, formulated last summer, to sell one of my American houses, move to Ukraine, marry my fiancee, and live with her in Luhansk until she received the two university degrees that she is studying for. So...I did NEED to be in Ukraine,and that fascist, Pitler, has totally screwed with our lives. I don't wish to sway any elections, but I believe any idiot threatening Ukrainian citizens with his Kalashnikov, while flashing the Russian flag, should be executed where he stands for being either (1) the traitor that he is or (2) a Russian terrorist, invading a foreign country...both occasions of execution would be legal in international law.
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FT, personally speaking, I had long range plans formulated last summer, to sell one of my American houses, move to Ukraine, marry my fiancee, and live with her in Luhansk until she received the two university degrees that she is studying for. So...I did NEED to be in Ukraine,and that fascist, Pitler, has totally screwed with our lives. I don't wish to sway any elections, but I believe any idiot threatening Ukrainian citizens with his Kalashnikov, while flashing the Russian flag, should be executed where he stands for being (1) either the traitor that he is or (2) being a Russian terrorist, invading a foreign country...both occasions of execution would be legal in international law.
Ditto! +1
The only way they should be allowed to leave Ukriane (Including Crimea) is through a hail of machine gun fire!
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FT, personally speaking, I had long range plans, formulated last summer, to sell one of my American houses, move to Ukraine, marry my fiancee, and live with her in Luhansk until she received the two university degrees that she is studying for. So...I did NEED to be in Ukraine,and that fascist, Pitler, has totally screwed with our lives. I don't wish to sway any elections, but I believe any idiot threatening Ukrainian citizens with his Kalashnikov, while flashing the Russian flag, should be executed where he stands for being either (1) the traitor that he is or (2) a Russian terrorist, invading a foreign country...both occasions of execution would be legal in international law.
:thumbsup:
Ditto! +1
The only way they should be allowed to leave Ukriane (Including Crimea) is through a hail of machine gun fire!
:thumbsup:
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LFU,
A paper trail of cash ?
Is this another one of your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories again ?..yawn :rolleyes
Show the proof ,or are you just full of hot air ?
And your feeble attempt at deflection doesn't work..so once again i'll ask you which other country did the Kiev protestors invade and steal land from ?
And while you're at it,show us where the Kiev protestors were chanting USA,USA or even Engerland,Engerland ,waving those countries flags,and asking those countries to invade.
Whereas of course there is plenty of film of the pro Russian seperatists ,waving Russian flags,chanting Russia,Russia and inviting Russia to invade Ukraine,in between shooting down Ukraine Helicopters..
Rather a large difference there,even in your world where everything is in grey and full of conspiracies
Your comments about Putin sound a bit gay by the way ..shows how your mind works..that sure isn't a grey area ;D
Guys -- expecting any factual or common sense from the inane band of apologists for Russia's criminal behaviour there is truly some strange bedfellows for FT -- who thinks getting innocent people murdered and a massive disruption to the lives of Ukrainians is a "win-win" situation-- next up-- agreeing mostly with him is a guy who says 9/ 11 never happened-- that the US faked the moon landing !! Next up is a guy who bites the hands of friendship-- and comes to the forum with a skinful to post belligerent posts , a guy who posts dubiously accurate material in the guise of "direct" information. Then we have a short arse who is at angst with the world at large-- and more often than not litters his posts with insults to others-- btw--he also needs to be on the "turps" to post is inane ignorance.
Given that I think Putin is a ridiclous little man-- and a few of the guys I mentioned are height challenged-- maybe it is the lack of oxygen that has affected them !! ;D
ps-- good to see Prince Charles is reading the forum and agrees with us that Putin is 2014 version of Hitler!!
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agreeing mostly with him is a guy who says 9/ 11 never happened-
I assume they think is was a US government plot......but anyways who are you talking about?
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FT, personally speaking, I had long range plans, formulated last summer, to sell one of my American houses, move to Ukraine, marry my fiancee, and live with her in Luhansk until she received the two university degrees that she is studying for. So...I did NEED to be in Ukraine,and that fascist, Pitler, has totally screwed with our lives. I don't wish to sway any elections, but I believe any idiot threatening Ukrainian citizens with his Kalashnikov, while flashing the Russian flag, should be executed where he stands for being either (1) the traitor that he is or (2) a Russian terrorist, invading a foreign country...both occasions of execution would be legal in international law.
Hey cc3, good luck with the plan/fiancee...
Anger has to be directed somewhere I guess, although If I had it I wouldn't direct it all at Russia, but I am not you obviously. It is quite possible this conflict will not continue much longer…the vote is coming up very soon…and I imagine decisions will be made and those decisions may strike a compromise that brings relative peace to the area. Well it is worth a shot.
Guys -- expecting any factual or common sense from the inane band of apologists for Russia's criminal behaviour there is truly some strange bedfellows for FT -- who thinks getting innocent people murdered and a massive disruption to the lives of Ukrainians is a "win-win" situation-
Well obviously Jay your misstatement of the position I've taken is grotesque.
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Well obviously Jay your misstatement of the position I've taken is grotesque.
FT, I wouldn't worry too much about Jay "My mind is like an empty book" H. He isn't the sharpest tack in the bunch and unless he reads it on yahoo he wouldn't know his ass from his nose. JayH is an average MOBer and now you may understand why some view them as they do.
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@ FT (as I posted on another forum):
Fiancee reported yesterday that everyone in town (Luhansk) was sent home from jobs and school and told to shelter in their homes and not go outside for their safety. All normal (non-russophile nut cases, that is) individuals sense great danger in the present situation. She further reports that there is no evidence that the national election will occur in Luhansk on Sunday. She should know, being a member of the city election commission.
Reply that I received from expat resident of Bila Tverska (south of Kyiv):
"I was at a funeral yesterday. Two of the attendees were from Luhansk, and had arrived the night before in B.T. They both are NOT going back due to the in their words in English "Flucking idiot Russian dick lovers who are tearing everything apart." They are afraid to go out at night, the train ride out was scary because there were people with guns at the train station. Too many people afraid to speak out against Russia.
They guy is a sailor, rather burly, speaks German, Russian, English and Turkish and not so good on his Ukrainian, his mom was old but not frail. He comes home every few months after a voyage out of Odesa, and said the change in Luhansk was drastic from when he was home 6 weeks ago. I didn't see fear in his eyes as much as I saw disgust. The mother didn't say much, other than the fact that she will be happy to live where people are not stupid.
They were NOT surprised that there were no roving bands of Nazi loving fools here beating up Russians speakers. "Only goats believe these tales." she said.
I got a little more from him, but mostly he amazed how crazy I was for moving to Ukraine, you know the usual. :D"
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For those that still cannot get it into their thickheads-- Ukrainians DO NOT WANT RUSSIA OR RUSSIAN PATSIES there.
An interesting and funny if it was not so serious link-- it has English sub titles so no excuse not to understand the words.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27541005
#BBCtrending: Ukraine's 'babushkas' in stand-off with separatists
23 May 2014 Last updated at 14:51 BST
A Ukrainian grandmother and her daughter have become YouTube hits after chasing away pro-Russian separatists in their neighbourhood.
The women's mobile phone footage of the incident in Kramatorsk, over 100km (62 miles) from Donetsk, has been watched more than 700,000 times.
ADDED LATER
http://ukr-online.com/crime/6104-siloviki-vryatuvali-rodinu-smlivoyi-zhnki-z-kramatorska-yaku-teroristi-pogrozhuvali-stratiti.html
It is more on that story and update.
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FT, I wouldn't worry too much about Jay "My mind is like an empty book" H. He isn't the sharpest tack in the bunch and unless he reads it on yahoo he wouldn't know his ass from his nose. JayH is an average MOBer and now you may understand why some view them as they do.
Funny thing is that you will be very close to clueless as to my situation-- so much so you are incapable even to read the link sources I post.
Of the people I described earlier which is you? Maybe to the guy that says 911 never happened? Or that the US never landed on the moon?
Yeah-- your credible LOL ( at you-not with you_) :)
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On a slightly different tack, it amazes me that so many countries appear ready to wash their hands of Syria, with reportedly 150,000 dead already in their civil war, and Ukraine, where the events which are happening in the east already affect millions of people, and may affect millions more if the violence escalates into a true civil war or invasion, yet they're ready to instantly send teams to Nigeria to help look for a mere 200 or so missing schoolgirls.
Please don't misunderstand me - I, too, wish those girls to be found unharmed and returned to their families as soon as possible. I just think that it's highly hypocritical of so many in high places, including the U.S. President's family, to be waving those placards saying "Bring back the girls" and not waving placards saying "Assad - talk to the rebels" or "Let Ukraine decide its own future."
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On a slightly different tack, it amazes me that so many countries appear ready to wash their hands of Syria, with reportedly 150,000 dead already in their civil war, and Ukraine, where the events which are happening in the east already affect millions of people, and may affect millions more if the violence escalates into a true civil war or invasion, yet they're ready to instantly send teams to Nigeria to help look for a mere 200 or so missing schoolgirls.
Please don't misunderstand me - I, too, wish those girls to be found unharmed and returned to their families as soon as possible. I just think that it's highly hypocritical of so many in high places, including the U.S. President's family, to be waving those placards saying "Bring back the girls" and not waving placards saying "Assad - talk to the rebels" or "Let Ukraine decide its own future."
Agreed but, that is the world we live in.
Along that same note, you do understand that Boko Haram is merely following the Koran and the religion you love to defend, don't you? ;D
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On a slightly different tack, it amazes me that so many countries appear ready to wash their hands of Syria, with reportedly 150,000 dead already in their civil war,
One reason big nations have responsibility with what is happening in Syria is because we do have the ability to stop the war and save lives. If America and the EU bombed a road to the capitol just like they did in Libya, the war would be over.
Syria doesn't have as much resources as Libya and I think it's one of the countries the West allows Russia to have influence over. People will remember that they were thrown out to slaughter. If the civilians eventually win the war in Syria, I suspect they will be much more hostile to the West than the current government because we aren't there to help the good guys get into power. What does hostile mean? It means more people are going to die and the West may be the ones paying in blood.
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Funny thing is that you will be very close to clueless as to my situation-- so much so you are incapable even to read the link sources I post.
Of the people I described earlier which is you? Maybe to the guy that says 911 never happened? Or that the US never landed on the moon?
Yeah-- your credible LOL ( at you-not with you_) :)
JayH, you don't have a clue as to what I read or don't. The last thing I want to know is your situation. Most of your posts are links to Yahoo. That tells me you can't formulate enough of your own thoughts to make a complete post and would rather rely on posting links to feel you're contributing. Hell, even this post is so garbled it hurts my brain trying to figure out what you are babbling on about.
The funny thing is all I know about you is you drove a car which I am finding hard to believe every time you post.
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On a slightly different tack, it amazes me that so many countries appear ready to wash their hands of Syria, with reportedly 150,000 dead already in their civil war, and Ukraine, where the events which are happening in the east already affect millions of people, and may affect millions more if the violence escalates into a true civil war or invasion, yet they're ready to instantly send teams to Nigeria to help look for a mere 200 or so missing schoolgirls.
Please don't misunderstand me - I, too, wish those girls to be found unharmed and returned to their families as soon as possible. I just think that it's highly hypocritical of so many in high places, including the U.S. President's family, to be waving those placards saying "Bring back the girls" and not waving placards saying "Assad - talk to the rebels" or "Let Ukraine decide its own future."
Kiwi, do you really think it would be a good idea for western countries to send in troops to Syria and Ukraine?
I take it you do based on what you posted.
I don't... we are not talking about sending troops to help but also to keep troops there to maintain peace if peace is even achieved. These are long term solutions and I don't think those types of actions would be accepted in America with everything that has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Kiwi, do you really think it would be a good idea for western countries to send in troops to Syria and Ukraine?
I take it you do based on what you posted.
I don't... we are not talking about sending troops to help but also to keep troops there to maintain peace if peace is even achieved. These are long term solutions and I don't think those types of actions would be accepted in America with everything that has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I'm looking at it more from the point of view of a proper UN peacekeeping force, rather than troops being sent under their national flags, which I agree would almost certainly inflame the situation in both countries. Whatever their feelings towards "the West," combatants on all sides in recent conflicts seem to have more respect for the UN's objectives than they do towards (for example) American troops operating under the US flag.
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JayH, you don't have a clue as to what I read or don't. The last thing I want to know is your situation. Most of your posts are links to Yahoo. That tells me you can't formulate enough of your own thoughts to make a complete post and would rather rely on posting links to feel you're contributing. Hell, even this post is so garbled it hurts my brain trying to figure out what you are babbling on about.
The funny thing is all I know about you is you drove a car which I am finding hard to believe every time you post.
Your comments show you are clueless as to what is in the links I have posted-- the point of the links is there is a lot of factual information from those very close to the situation-- some with overall view .Some links are clear rebuttals to some crazy comments from the few apologists here for Putin's stupidity. As far as Yahoo is concerned-- I would bet a lot of money that less than 1% of links I posted is to Yahoo source-- so really --is that another deliberate lie or just your ignorance ?
For all to see here-- you are the guy who says 911 never happened--correct? The point I am making is that is in line with your generally looney posts on the FSU .
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Your comments show you are clueless as to what is in the links I have posted-- the point of the links is there is a lot of factual information from those very close to the situation-- some with overall view .Some links are clear rebuttals to some crazy comments from the few apologists here for Putin's stupidity. As far as Yahoo is concerned-- I would bet a lot of money that less than 1% of links I posted is to Yahoo source-- so really --is that another deliberate lie or just your ignorance ?
For all to see here-- you are the guy who says 911 never happened--correct? The point I am making is that is in line with your generally looney posts on the FSU .
Does anyone have a JayH translator available? I'm still trying to work out what 911 has to do with all of this and why he keeps asking me if it ever happened. Anyone speak imbecile that could help with his latest post?
Maybe he is reading an old version of Yahoo and thinks 911 just happened.
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I'm still trying to work out what 911 has to do with all of this and why he keeps asking me if it ever happened.
Jays point is that if someone believes 911 never happened......they should not be allowed out of lockdown at the psych ward......much less giving advice about anything.(ok...maybe he didn't quite say that)
Now I have no idea if this is what you believe....and I don't think you do....but it is always good to know what state of mind a poster is coming from.
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Jays point is that if someone believes 911 never happened......they should not be allowed out of lockdown at the psych ward......much less giving advice about anything.(ok...maybe he didn't quite say that)
Now I have no idea if this is what you believe....and I don't think you do....but it is always good to know what state of mind a poster is coming from.
I appreciate the translation lonedrake. Don't you find it strange he just randomly accuses someone of those types of things? Hell, I don't recall ever talking about 911 and I definitely never said or thought it didn't happen.
Maybe the dude is confusing me with his imaginary friend or something. Like you said, it's good to know his state of mind.
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Jays point is that if someone believes 911 never happened......they should not be allowed out of lockdown at the psych ward......much less giving advice about anything.(ok...maybe he didn't quite say that)
Now I have no idea if this is what you believe....and I don't think you do....but it is always good to know what state of mind a poster is coming from.
LD-- you do have my point !!
Maybe I am mistaken about 911 with this guy-- maybe it is the moon landing he is in denial about. It is one of these loonies that believes that stuff- like it is all fiction.Now we have the looney fringe trying to tell us that Russia has not invaded Ukraine !!
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For those that still cannot get it into their thickheads-- Ukrainians DO NOT WANT RUSSIA OR RUSSIAN PATSIES there.
An interesting and funny if it was not so serious link-- it has English sub titles so no excuse not to understand the words.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27541005
#BBCtrending: Ukraine's 'babushkas' in stand-off with separatists
23 May 2014 Last updated at 14:51 BST
A Ukrainian grandmother and her daughter have become YouTube hits after chasing away pro-Russian separatists in their neighbourhood.
The women's mobile phone footage of the incident in Kramatorsk, over 100km (62 miles) from Donetsk, has been watched more than 700,000 times.
ADDED LATER
http://ukr-online.com/crime/6104-siloviki-vryatuvali-rodinu-smlivoyi-zhnki-z-kramatorska-yaku-teroristi-pogrozhuvali-stratiti.html
It is more on that story and update.
More on this story
"This woman has become famous all over Ukraine after with a neighbor drove with his street fighters arrived in the van," - said in a statement.
Later accomplices militants began to threaten Sofia physical violence. She had three children while hiding from the terrorists, who promised her execution. This prompted Sofia to seek help from the military.
http://telegraf.com.ua/ukraina/mestnyiy/1298220-voennyie-spasli-zhitelnitsu-kramatorska-vyignavshuyu-boevikov-s-ulitsyi.html
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.Now we have the looney fringe trying to tell us that Russia has not invaded Ukraine !!
I don't believe that Russia has invaded Ukraine (aside from stealing Crimea, which was never denied by me). The election is about to occur and the Russian troops have not moved, several said this election would never happen and Russia would invade all of Ukraine. Some with unsteady hands said we (the USA) needed to act militarily before the invasion happened... All those people were mistaken...Russia was never going to invade E. Ukraine...sure there are some ruffians that are out killing people (from both sides) and there does appear to be a measure of disharmony in parts of E. Ukraine, but that does not constitute an invasion. Soon the new ELECTED leader can make some decisions about which direction to go. If certain regions gain some autonomy because that is what they want, there is nothing wrong with that.
In the end
1. Russia will have added Crimea to their holdings, and possibly retain influence in Eastern Regions of Ukraine.
2. The rest of Ukraine will move towards the west.
These results would be acceptable enough to many, perhaps even most...we (the USA) will have hurt ourselves by getting involved. It will hopefully soon be time to turn the page...imo
Fathertime!
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On a slightly different tack, it amazes me that so many countries appear ready to wash their hands of Syria, with reportedly 150,000 dead already in their civil war, and Ukraine, where the events which are happening in the east already affect millions of people, and may affect millions more if the violence escalates into a true civil war or invasion, yet they're ready to instantly send teams to Nigeria to help look for a mere 200 or so missing schoolgirls.
Please don't misunderstand me - I, too, wish those girls to be found unharmed and returned to their families as soon as possible. I just think that it's highly hypocritical of so many in high places, including the U.S. President's family, to be waving those placards saying "Bring back the girls" and not waving placards saying "Assad - talk to the rebels" or "Let Ukraine decide its own future."
There are conflicts springing up all over the world right now...the UN will not have the resources to intervene and in addition many of the countries don't want outside interference and would wind up killing peacekeepers. If people have to fight it out, then so be it. As long as we are not causing the fighting we don't have an obligation to stretch our resources to try to clean up the messes of the world.
Fathertime!
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One reason big nations have responsibility with what is happening in Syria is because we do have the ability to stop the war and save lives. If America and the EU bombed a road to the capitol just like they did in Libya, the war would be over.
Syria doesn't have as much resources as Libya and I think it's one of the countries the West allows Russia to have influence over. People will remember that they were thrown out to slaughter. If the civilians eventually win the war in Syria, I suspect they will be much more hostile to the West than the current government because we aren't there to help the good guys get into power. What does hostile mean? It means more people are going to die and the West may be the ones paying in blood.
Hey BillyB,
I don't think we should be bombing any roads in Syria...I don't think it would end the killing either. If we were to feel we could bomb at will eventually other countries might begin to feel the same way, next thing you know China or another country will start bombing countries if they decided they didn't agree with, and we wouldn't have a leg to stand on when we wagged our finger at them to stop. We should stay outta Syria's mess...eventually they will figure it out and if they don't...it is their problem, we (the USA) don't need to be involved with our people/bombs/resources.
Fathertime!
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Pro-Russian seperatists are not allowing LEGAL voting for a new President to take place in Donetsk and Luhansk today,being filmed smashing up the polling booths.
Guess that must be the evil west behind this :rolleyes:
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Pro-Russian seperatists are not allowing LEGAL voting for a new President to take place in Donetsk and Luhansk today,being filmed smashing up the polling booths.
Guess that must be the evil west behind this :rolleyes:
Well, considering both places have a higher RU oriented voting population that would not make sense at all..
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There 15% of the E. Ukrainian population and not even united for Putler and that's a majority?
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Actually it's more than 15% in eastern UA.
But hardly a majority! And they've been Ukrainians since the fall of the USSR. (except for the recent terrorists/tourists)
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Actually it's more than 15% in eastern UA.
But hardly a majority! And they've been Ukrainians since the fall of the USSR. (except for the recent terrorists/tourists)
And yet again - how many of those people have EVER been harassed just for being Russian speakers? Putin's 40,000 troops are there just to protect the rights of six people! :D
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I don't think we should be bombing any roads in Syria...I don't think it would end the killing either.
The killing won't end but ending the war in 3 months instead of letting it drag out 3 years will save lives.
next thing you know China or another country will start bombing countries if they decided they didn't agree with, and we wouldn't have a leg to stand on when we wagged our finger at them to stop.
One reason China and Russia has played nice the past years is because America is tough with enforcing international laws.
As long as we are not causing the fighting we don't have an obligation to stretch our resources to try to clean up the messes of the world.
One reason Russia and China have recently expanded their borders is because Obama is softer than past presidents and this presented them with an opportunity.
If we don't take some preventive measures now, things will get worse in the future and harder to stop. People are rightfully worried that Putin will continue past Ukraine even if it doesn't sound logical. Putin has done some of the same things as Hitler. People were too lazy to stop Hitler's violation of international laws.
Unless Putin can buy the new president of Ukraine, he will continue to cause Ukraine problems. The pro Russians there have vowed to create "New Russia", a name Putin invented to replace Ukraine.
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China is the big winner in Ukraine for they will do as they have in Asia and Africa, colonize Siberia. Its one thing for Putin to lie in bed he made, will you please tell him to stop wetting it?
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I asked just this question when I was there recently. Since I wasn't about to go into the free fire zone I did ask friends and family to contact their friends and family in Krim and ask.
Out of my little limited poll the simple answer is NONE.
Putler is in it for land and the gas oil reserves not to mention the considerable savings of the cost of the South Stream Gas Line being run overland or in shallow waters to Bulgaria VS the deep water route across the Black Sea.
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The killing won't end but ending the war in 3 months instead of letting it drag out 3 years will save lives.
One reason China and Russia has played nice the past years is because America is tough with enforcing international laws.
One reason Russia and China have recently expanded their borders is because Obama is softer than past presidents and this presented them with an opportunity.
If we don't take some preventive measures now, things will get worse in the future and harder to stop. People are rightfully worried that Putin will continue past Ukraine even if it doesn't sound logical. Putin has done some of the same things as Hitler. People were too lazy to stop Hitler's violation of international laws.
Hey Billy,
I see it a different way…it is finally now that many of the countries of the world have had enough of American intervention, and are going to react against our perceived arrogance. We got a fairly free pass on Iraq and Afghanistan due to 9/11…After this though, what we did with Khadafy and were on the cusp of doing in the Syria, not to mention the weekly drone attacks in other nations, represented a new high watermark of interventionism. I’m hoping that it winds up being our peak of international interventionism as we continue to decline as the world’s police. The people here won’t have the stomach for an Obama war, or any other US leader war, unless we have very very good cause.
China/Libya/Egypt/Ukraine/Thailand/Syria/Iraq/Iran/Venezuela/ Palestine etc etc. The end result of our ‘help’ has led to crisis’s around the globe…I am for us packing up our duds and scooting on home…As long as we don’t help create the conditions for conflicts, we can let whatever happens happen and do business with the remaining party. As it stands we are losing ground on nearly every front, and it isn’t because of Obama, for better or worse the American people are behind him with a less hands on policy. Perhaps you can make the case for the Urgent need to threaten/use our armed forces to intervene elsewhere, but it would have to be an extremely strong case as those armed forces are supposed to be used as a defense for us, and most of nation won't agree to having our kids killed to protect some Syrian/Ukrainian/Iraqi citizens *at least not anymore*…these nations can put in their own work...we are all stocked up with our own to-do list of things to deal with.
Fathertime!
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Your hate has perverted your morals. Your pride has blinded you. To say such a thing on Memorial Day is barbaric in its insensitivity. What treachery. To receive invective about my honor from one without is an honor. Judas is worried you might take his comfy spot in the infernal regions.
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Shots fired at Donetsk airport today after pro-Russian seperatists took control and forced its closure.
Meanwhile Russia warns the new President of Ukraine he's not to tackle the pro-Russian seperatists/thugs.
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The new President of Ukraine has ignored the threats from Russia,and sent in jets,helicopters and paratroopers against the pro-Russian seperatists holding Donetsk airport...good for him.
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Your hate has perverted your morals. Your pride has blinded you. To say such a thing on Memorial Day is barbaric in its insensitivity. What treachery. To receive invective about my honor from one without is an honor. Judas is worried you might take his comfy spot in the infernal regions.
You are whining that you don’t get respect or have honor. You don’t deserve any respect. There are consequences for your behavior. Live with it!
Shots fired at Donetsk airport today after pro-Russian seperatists took control and forced its closure.
Meanwhile Russia warns the new President of Ukraine he's not to tackle the pro-Russian seperatists/thugs.
I think it is time for the separatists to stand down. Although the election was not perfect it was as good as it could get for now. Breaking up Ukraine doesn't appear to be on the table unless Russia were to invade (which also isn't on the table)…the majority wouldn't vote for breaking Ukraine up, but it is possible the majority would like more autonomy so that is a reasonable goal to pursue. Hopefully there will be some high level meetings to hammer out an equitable solution….I think that is a distinct possibility. I also sense that if the new govt takes a very hard line when it comes to negotiations, it will be counterproductive and lead to more internal fighting. Hopefully a balance can be struck.
Fathertime!
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China/Libya/Egypt/Ukraine/Thailand/Syria/Iraq/Iran/Venezuela/ Palestine etc etc. The end result of our ‘help’ has led to crisis’s around the globe…
Crisis around the globe will happen with or without us...probably more without us. With Obama's soft stance towards aggression the last 6 years, Russia and China have been more aggressive. The result is more nations around the world have asked us to park our troops on their land. I remember in the 90's, even Clinton was more active towards aggression than Obama. China shot a missile over Taiwan and Clinton immediately sent an aircraft carrier group over to China. Clinton was not so aggressive pursuing Osama Bin Ladan the first WTC bombing. The result was another WTC bombing in 9/11.
More nations are now considering joining NATO. Those in NATO are beefing up their militaries near the Russian border. More people around the world, particularly in Europe and Asia, depend on our security and providing that security has benefits.
these nations can put in their own work...we are all stocked up with our own to-do list of things to deal with.
I'd like to see those nations put in more work too towards their security. When Obama meets with the leaders of those nations, he must stress that point and the point of buying American if they want our security. American arms sales have gone up recently so I suspect Obama brought that up at his trip in Europe. Too many times in the past, Obama failed to step up for American businesses in his trips around the world.
I think it is time for the separatists to stand down.
I agree. Those in the east must give the new president a chance. If he does poorly, they can protest by the millions in Kiev just as the west done 3+ months ago and tell him to step down. I don't see a lot of east Ukraine citizens protesting, just mostly armed thugs so I believe most east Ukrainians just want peace and hope their country moves in the right direction, not join Russia.
As of now, it is the president's job to bring peace, stability and prosperity to ALL citizens and he must start by removing the few armed thugs off the streets so Ukraine can begin a healing process. He's already offered the east more autonomy but he can't give them the land.
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Yarosh was reported as the President on Russian TV Channel !!
Ukrainian security agencies and IT specialists foiled an attempt to break into Ukraine's election site and falsify the results of the presidential election. A virus was discovered that was designed to show Dmytro Yarosh, head of the Right Sector, as the winner. However, Russian operatives apparently got the timing wrong, because Russia's Channel One went ahead with fake news report 40 minutes after the discovery of the virus.
Quite a coincidence Huh? They must have had their crystal ball aligned with their OUIJI Boards in order to know that!
Russian hacking attempt fails, but fake election news airs
Posted on May 26, 2014 by marquepro
The news report by Russian Public Television (ORT) Channel One about the alleged victory of Dmytro Yarosh (head of the Right Sector — Ed.) in the presidential elections in Ukraine was the result of a planned and prepared provocation against Ukraine and not the result of error or technological failure, Ukrainian officials say.
The news agency Ukrinform reports that sources in the Security Service of Ukraine have stated that the provocation centered around an attempted hacking of the election site.
“The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and the State Service of Special Communication and Information Protection of Ukraine, together with Ukrainian IT specialists, found, localized and finally neutralized a virus designed to interfere with the post-election counting of votes on the Central Election Committee site. Specifically, the plan was for Dmytro Yarosh to win, showing a 37% return, the equivalent of 19 million voters,” an SBU source told Ukrinform.
The source said the virus was neutralized about 40 minutes before the Channel One news report went on the air. Obviously, operatives in Moscow did not learn of this development in time, since Channel One proceeded to announce the “fake” news that in reality never took place.
According to Kostyantyn Khivrenko, head of media relations for the Central Election Commission (CEC), the cynical lie distributed once again by Channel One was yet another element in the information war against Ukraine, in addition to the “hot” war taking place in the eastern regions of the country.
This view was confirmed by the head of the Central Election Commission Mykhaylo Okhendovsky at a press briefing at the CEC headquarters on Monday, May 26.
“Indeed, according to our colleagues, certain provocations were being prepared, including the use of the CEC site. But these groups were not able to break into the system and gain illegal entry to our website. In my view, other groups simply carried out their part of the assignment regarding the distribution of certain information, supposedly citing the CEC,” he said.
Okhendovsky noted that this situation made it possible to draw certain conclusions regarding the wide range of people who could have been involved in the attempts to break into the system “Election” and interfere with its operation. However, he confirmed that all the attacks had been unsuccessful and that the system is operating normally.
As previously reported, according to preliminary results of the exit polls, the leader of the Right Sector Dmytro Yarosh was not even included in the top ten candidates for the presidency and received less than 1 percent of the vote.
Note: The Right Sector is a Ukrainian nationalist organization that is repeatedly cited by Russian media as typical of the supposed “fascist” nature of Ukraine’s pro-Western forces.
Translated and edited by Anna Mostovych
Sources:
http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/news/tsentrviborchkom_rosiyski_zmi_spalilisya_na_yaroshi_1942000
http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/news/informatsiya_ort_pro_yarosha_prezidenta_ne_pomilka_a_provokatsiya_1941845
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I don't believe that Russia has invaded Ukraine (aside from stealing Crimea, which was never denied by me). The election is about to occur and the Russian troops have not moved, several said this election would never happen and Russia would invade all of Ukraine. Some with unsteady hands said we (the USA) needed to act militarily before the invasion happened... All those people were mistaken...Russia was never going to invade E. Ukraine...sure there are some ruffians that are out killing people (from both sides) and there does appear to be a measure of disharmony in parts of E. Ukraine, but that does not constitute an invasion. Soon the new ELECTED leader can make some decisions about which direction to go. If certain regions gain some autonomy because that is what they want, there is nothing wrong with that.
In the end
1. Russia will have added Crimea to their holdings, and possibly retain influence in Eastern Regions of Ukraine.
2. The rest of Ukraine will move towards the west.
These results would be acceptable enough to many, perhaps even most...we (the USA) will have hurt ourselves by getting involved. It will hopefully soon be time to turn the page...imo
Fathertime!
So Fathertime Van der Craats is changing his tune, eh?
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So Fathertime Van der Craats is changing his tune, eh?
Has the position I’ve taken changed? I thought it was about the same as it was 3 months ago.
1. The US stay out of the conflict….still feel the same way
2. The Russian troops were not going to invade…..they didn’t, and I don’t think they will
3. Negotiate with both sides to give those Eastern Regions more autonomy….still support that
4. Possible win-win (for most)…..still think that is possible
….Russia did take Crimea which I (alone on this website) felt at the time was the main military objective… Others called for US military involvement and felt all of Ukraine was going to be overrun. Those posters have changed their tune, but I haven’t needed to change mine, as the events thus far have supported my earlier position, which was at the time was ridiculed as being naïve. From my perspective the outstanding issue will be if an internal conflict can be averted, if so and Ukraine stabilizes and moves toward the west (like I think it will)...then I think even the media is going to claim win-win. If the new leader of Ukraine can't facilitate the stabilization of Eastern parts of Ukraine, then Ukraine loses....I think he will succeed. There still are some variables, but overall it is shaping up close to what I thought it would 3 months ago regarding no Russian invasion. I don't think it was ever on the table that these events were going to be without some fighting and deaths, but it could have been 100 or 1000 times worse.
Fathertime!
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Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 07:37:05 PM »
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lets all hope it wont escalate to open conflict involving the military
while many supposed experts are saying it wont happen and its putins bluff , honestly id not be surprised if it goes ahead, currently it wont take much to spark it off either in crimea or ukraine proper
if the destabilisation of the south east doesnt work as he had planned , he might up the anti even more in the near future
if it where to happen , even if putin is able to initially put forces into ukraine quickly at the outset, it will be bloody and protracted imho , slowly inevitably dragging in other players
SX
Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 12:36:20 AM »
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Quote from: JayH on March 17, 2014, 10:28:29 PM
Unfortunately I tend to think the provocations are the pre cursor to create the climate for an excuse to invade. Putin is either insane--or deluded--probably both-- and that is just plain dangerous to Ukraine-- and to the rest of the world.
yes , it is most likely how it wil be started if it does happen
putin is however not insane or deluded
he is imho a typical male of his generation and social enviroment ,hard nosed and practical , do what you must to achieve your aim , you dont work in the areas he has in germany under soviet rule etc without learning certain skills , evaluating people and manipulating/intimidating them among others is stock in trade,
he has imho made the decision his plan will pay off in the longer term , he accepts his country will take some negative for it , but in the pragmatic longer term he will make it into russian history as a strong leader who reunified parts of the FSU
question is really how far is he ready to go to do that , before he gets some significant push back
at present it doesnt look good
SX
FT,
my hypothetical question was merely to point out to daz , how we would feel/respond if a larger populated near neighbouring country decided it wanted a starting point within australia for occupation & annexation ,
on my part there was no race /slur intended, hopefully none was given to anybody,
my point was to use alocal example of how any treatys/international law would be viewed in the aftermath of crimea if substantial action is not shown to russia ,
to not care &let them sort it out themselves will in the future invite the following
1 all countrys will review defence spending , with an aim to more arms proliferation across the globe, including nukes,
2 all countrys complete reluctance to not only sign agreements, but to honour them
3 many of the worlds countrys will view argression on a near valuable neighbour possibly very differently
regardless of ''friendliness '' to each other
4 many countrys with internal ethinic issues may now have to deal with independence issues from within , including russia , as ethnic minoritys view this ''legal annexation of crimea '' within the accepted methods of achieving their aim
lots of other outcomes, but the ripple effect will last for along long time , even if putin stops at crimea
SX
Reply #218 on: March 24, 2014, 09:48:33 PM »
Quote
FT ,
russias movements of troops and there buildup along the entire east border with ukraine is going to be one of two things,
it could be the defensive posturing , but in reality , if that was so it is far more likely to be more concentrated in the south east, closer to crimea,
no other civilised country is going to invade russia in the north east, kharkiv has masses of rusky troops just 50 km away , over the border in belgorod , this isnt defence it is more likely waiting in the wings for the right trip /spark to move across into ukraine to ''SAVE '' the ethnc russians there , who by and large probably dont want it
with so much corruption abound within regional govs, it is difficult to make a proper reading of which way this will go , but just one major incident within an s/east oblast will very probably set the russian army westwards,
i have no doubt putin is mercilessly calculating , he has no better time than now or the very near future to make this move , if he chooses to ,
if he waits, he might lose the momentum/moment
ukraine will hold elctions and new gov will have unquestioned legitimacy, , now he can posture the gov doesnt , regardless of fact below
http://khpg.org.ua/en/index.php?id=1395358623
ukraine will if it recovers economicaly , boost its defences , have no doubt about that , it may join NATO ,
now it is vulnerable , it has no gaurantee of military help with troops etc from any third party, now or the very near future is putins moment when ukraine is at its most vulnerable , and parts of moldova, right across to take it all back as far as he can push ,
and dont forget putin still has yanukovich , as his puppet to restore ''legitimalty if he wishes to use him, remember yano wrote to the duma asking for their help to retake his position /country , ? yanu spent time after he left kiev in crimea, what hand did he have in that play ?? how affiliated is he with the new prime minister aksanov [goblin ] in crimea, ??
did they meet and plan in crimea ?? both have east mafia bases /connections ?
the EU/US have indicated their lack of will to get deeply involved and are prepared to sacrifice ukraine to save their economys, putin know this only too well
,
he has waited to get total control of crimea, all ukraine bases shut down ,forces removed , weapons in his control , no small resistance internally within crimea to cause any issues ,
all the chess pieces are in place to make the move, now /soon imho
question is will putin sieze his oppurtunity ? will he use yanukovich to front it when he does and where will it start ?
SX
FT, my first few posts on this , so far putin has not siezed his oportunity to the full, even though he is still trying
SX
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Whining about you? To who? I am making fun of you dummy. Oh BTW, your buddies in deer camou are getting their ass kicked by Ukrainians. The election is legitimate. Crimea is falling apart and will soon be in Ukrainian-Tartary hands. God willing Crimea will be rid of the scum too.
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I am making fun of you dummy.
Angry name calling! Hahaha...like I said no honor (or discipline)! ….The predictions I made have been very close…if your poor advice was followed we would have had an unnecessary war with tens of thousands dead or worse..thankfully you are NOT considered very good at military planning. Now that most of your jabbering has turned out to be completely wrong, I will be curious to see how you attempt to save face. My guess is angrier name calling but certainly not logical reasoned arguments.
Oh BTW, your buddies in deer camou are getting their ass kicked by Ukrainians.
Not my friends never were. Unlike you I’m not rejoicing in the killing, the election has occurred and I think the fighting should come to a close, and the negotiated settlement talks should commence. Ukraine needs to be on good terms with it’s Russian neighbor and that will prevail in the end…imo
. Crimea is falling apart and will soon be in Ukrainian-Tartary hands.
Here is another silly prediction that will likely not come to pass. Russia will not be giving up that land, and no nation is going to fight for it. Crimea is now Russia.
Fathertime!
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It seems that Russia is not only reentering the cold war of the past, it is also exercising more restrictions on personal liberties. The press is no long free, Russia is invading sovereign nations (Crimea) and is now trying to limit the brain drain that has been going on for many years.
Article on travel bans prohibiting Russians from leaving.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/controlling-russians-through-travel-bans/500914.html
Its unfortunate that after quite a few years of cooperation (space, business, tourist travel, START agreements, etc) that the current Hitler-like nut case is about to reset the calendar back decades. At the rate Pitler is going, Russia may well become a closed society again.
IMO it is a sign of desperation. His failures as president to rebuild the economy and improve life for Russians may well be his undoing. Invading Crimea and supporting the terrorists in Crimea and eastern Ukraine has the world turned against him. Whether his propaganda machine has managed to keep the truths from his people is uncertain.
Unfortunately for Putin, the genie is out of the bottle. A couple of decades of internet service and access to international news has provided a different view of the world to the younger generations. BTW, the same holds true to Ukrainians. Once people have a taste of freedom, it's difficult to put genie back. Hopefully the younger generations in Russia will eventually bring his demise.
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Too bad they won't keep their little green men and 'colorado's' at home.
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http://i.imgur.com/IDQmeiD.jpg
Crimean action !! Russian troops being really useful !!
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It seems that Russia is not only reentering the cold war of the past, it is also exercising more restrictions on personal liberties. The press is no long free, Russia is invading sovereign nations (Crimea) and is now trying to limit the brain drain that has been going on for many years.
Article on travel bans prohibiting Russians from leaving.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/controlling-russians-through-travel-bans/500914.html
Its unfortunate that after quite a few years of cooperation (space, business, tourist travel, START agreements, etc) that the current Hitler-like nut case is about to reset the calendar back decades. At the rate Pitler is going, Russia may well become a closed society again.
IMO it is a sign of desperation. His failures as president to rebuild the economy and improve life for Russians may well be his undoing. Invading Crimea and supporting the terrorists in Crimea and eastern Ukraine has the world turned against him. Whether his propaganda machine has managed to keep the truths from his people is uncertain.
Unfortunately for Putin, the genie is out of the bottle. A couple of decades of internet service and access to international news has provided a different view of the world to the younger generations. BTW, the same holds true to Ukrainians. Once people have a taste of freedom, it's difficult to put genie back. Hopefully the younger generations in Russia will eventually bring his demise.
Well hate to pop that patriotic bubble......
The article mentions 70% of those that are restricted are for reasons of debt...
Doesn't the IRS have the authority to revoke or prohibit issue of a passport for those who have large debt?
Isn't it funny how:
Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act
S. 1813
AN ACT
To reauthorize Federal-aid highway and highway safety construction programs, and for other purposes.
contains section 40304 stating in part:
(a)In general
If the Secretary receives certification by the Commissioner of Internal Revenue that any individual has a seriously delinquent tax debt in an amount in excess of $50,000, the Secretary shall transmit such certification to the Secretary of State for action with respect to denial, revocation, or limitation of a passport pursuant to section 4 of the Act entitled An Act to regulate the issue and validity of passports, and for other purposes, approved July 3, 1926 (22 U.S.C. 211a et seq.), commonly known as the Passport Act of 1926.
In addition, there are certainly high security/sensitive jobs that come along with travel restrictions or even bans to certain countries.
... and on top of that, how many felons or those with drug related misdemeanors on parole or probation have their passports held or application rejected?
How about travel to Cuba for USC's? any progress there lifting restrictions / penalties?
Seems like contempt prior to investigation.....
Even the 'Land of the Free' has plenty of exceptions and restrictions that grow and grow over time.
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Not my friends never were. Unlike you I’m not rejoicing in the killing, the election has occurred and I think the fighting should come to a close, and the negotiated settlement talks should commence. Ukraine needs to be on good terms with it’s Russian neighbor and that will prevail in the end…imo
The problem remains that no one knows how many Eastern Ukrainians want more autonomy. We know Putin would like the East to have more autonomy, but like any democracy the will of the majority trumps the will of the minority. That does not mean one can ignore the minority, it does not mean all the demands of the minority have to be accepted.
Of course, the seperatists would prefer no one to know how much support they truly have, hence some rigged referendum and the disruption of the elections.
I suspect those in power who want more autonomy want it to keep the status quo (corruption, less oversight), is that really want the average person on the street wants?
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Again, Father time, you don't respect the sovereignty or even lives of Ukrainians.
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Again, Father time, you don't respect the sovereignty or even lives of Ukrainians.
The version of ‘respect’ you believe in would have likely costed 10’s of thousands of Ukrainian lives, if not worse. You and your buddy McCain can continue to shriek about war (using other people’s children), but most of society won’t support your 1st ‘solution’ to everything.
Fathertime!
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Even the 'Land of the Free' has plenty of exceptions and restrictions that grow and grow over time.
Certainly true. Most people do not see it as they go about their ordinary lives. A new one happened this weekend when everyone was having their holiday. The IRS is now requiring all businesses no matter how small to get heath insurance policies for their employees or face $100 a day fines. That is $36,500 a year in fines per employee. It doesn't matter whether they can afford them it's just "do it." Frankly all the fuss and energy people expel here on this forum about Ukraine and Russia should be directed towards their own government screwing with their lives.
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The version of ‘respect’ you believe in would have likely costed 10’s of thousands of Ukrainian lives, if not worse. You and your buddy McCain can continue to shriek about war (using other people’s children), but most of society won’t support your 1st ‘solution’ to everything.
Fathertime!
You bitch about the 1000s of people who haven't died versus the 100s who have.
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Frankly all the fuss and energy people expel here on this forum about Ukraine and Russia should be directed towards their own government screwing with their lives.
Gotta agree with that one.. really, I have no idea where they get ALL that energy, or all that free time.. even if their retirees... they eat and sleep right? :P
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You bitch about the 1000s of people who haven't died versus the 100s who have.
Thankfully it has been hundreds and not Tens of thousands like if you and your buddy McCain got your way. You must be so disappointed that this has a good chance of ending soon without serious US intervention and many more dead. Although if given the opportunity to work against it you would, this is potentially winding down with no Russian invasion (outside of Crimea) like you promised. How disappointing for you, but very good potential news for the rest of us. Direct US intervention was NEVER the answer, despite you caterwauling.
Fathertime!
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Gotta agree with that one.. really, I have no idea where they get ALL that energy, or all that free time.. even if their retirees... they eat and sleep right? :P
Because of the crisis, sex tourism literally screeches to a grinding halt. Most of these guys are no-lifers to begin with so they're just illustrating what life is like if they have to stay 'home' (Without the MOB).
Zilch.
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Putin continues to send troops into Ukraine.
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/russian-invasion-expected-in-luhansk-region-RRRcnrK7TOyomUpiiyTdZQ.html?cmpid=yhoo
Frankly all the fuss and energy people expel here on this forum about Ukraine and Russia should be directed towards their own government screwing with their lives.
People have expelled more energy towards their government than towards Russia. Obama has taken more of a beating than Putin. Obama's foreign policy, Obamacare, Bengazi, are some examples. Putin will get the lion's share of the attention for now but it will pass when this is over. Then we'll go back to criticizing our own government.
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I'd like to see those nations put in more work too towards their security. When Obama meets with the leaders of those nations, he must stress that point and the point of buying American if they want our security. American arms sales have gone up recently so I suspect Obama brought that up at his trip in Europe. Too many times in the past, Obama failed to step up for American businesses in his trips around the world.
Hey Billyb,
This is an interesting concept that you have brought up....I think what you are saying is that we (the USA) will protect you IF you are buying our products and supporting our businesses. IF that is what you are saying then I might be able to go along with it, at least to a certain extent. That probably is what all our 'protection/interventionism' is mostly about to begin with. Of course that does make our armed forces mercenaries to some degree and does bring up some issues as to what the purpose of our military is supposed to be.
Our 'representatives' of course are being quite hypocritical and patting themselves on the back about 'protecting' or 'liberating' when really that is not what it seems to be about much of the time. I really think the politicians should be more honest and come out and say the REAL reason's we are getting involved which would be about propping up our businesses, the rest of the world seems to know this anyway...if they were to do that, I think the American people would be more supportive if they believe there are some real tangible benefits for John Q. Public.
Fathertime!
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The Ukrainian border guard service at Luhansk today said that it's officers engaged in a gun battle with a gang of gunmen who were trying to break through the border from Russia.
One intruder was wounded and the border guards seized several vehicles loaded with Kalashnikov assault rifles,rocket grenade launchers and explosives.
Needless to say this news did not come from RTS.
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..I think what you are saying is that we (the USA) will protect you IF you are buying our products and supporting our businesses. IF that is what you are saying then I might be able to go along with it, at least to a certain extent.
It is what I'm saying. If our friends want our help protecting their nations, they need to do something in return. One reason our nation became strong is because we did help our friends during their wars, particularly in WWI and WWII. One reason our nation's debt doesn't look so bad is because many nations owe us for the help we gave. The UK is #2 in debt in this world and they owe America the most. America will stay strong if we are trustworthy, reliable, and have a president that knows how to negotiate when it comes to foreign policy deals.
Obama hasn't impressed me much as a good business man. Here's one example: We went into Afghanistan in response to 9/11. We spend our taxpayer money to help rebuild the nation and instead of buying American choppers for Afghanistan's security, we buy Russian. Over a billion dollars worth. This of course was decided before Putin did his thing in Ukraine. Obama tries to share the love with everybody to rebuild Afghanistan only to get crapped on later.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/08/russian-helicopters-us-1-billion-afghan-military_n_4408278.html
That probably is what all our 'protection/interventionism' is mostly about to begin with. Of course that does make our armed forces mercenaries to some degree and does bring up some issues as to what the purpose of our military is supposed to be.
I would disagree with providing security if our allies were able to tell our troops what to do. Phillippines, South Korea, Japan, and NATO nations shouldn't be allowed to tell our troops to go on attack. Our troops should be used for defensive purposes specifically in defense of the nations they're stationed in.
Our 'representatives' of course are being quite hypocritical and patting themselves on the back about 'protecting' or 'liberating' when really that is not what it seems to be about much of the time. I really think the politicians should be more honest and come out and say the REAL reason's we are getting involved which would be about propping up our businesses, the rest of the world seems to know this anyway...if they were to do that, I think the American people would be more supportive if they believe there are some real tangible benefits for John Q. Public.
I can handle the truth but it seems most Americans prefer to hear that we do things to save lives. It sounds much better than doing things for oil or improving business. Saving lives should be a goal of ours but not the only goal.
The Ukrainian border guard service at Luhansk today said that it's officers engaged in a gun battle with a gang of gunmen who were trying to break through the border from Russia.
One intruder was wounded and the border guards seized several vehicles loaded with Kalashnikov assault rifles,rocket grenade launchers and explosives.
Interesting that when Yanukovych was president, Russians were fine with that. Now somebody else is president, Russian citizens are willing to cross the border and voluntarily risk their lives to help their neighbors in east Ukraine get away from all the fascists. Most people know they are paid Russian special forces, not volunteers.
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Russians attacked Ukrainian border guards. All sorts of arms from Russia confiscated. The real scum on this forum are OK with Putin arming criminals but are against honest people arming themselves. But Putin and his minions can't break the spirit of Ukraine.
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Certainly true. Most people do not see it as they go about their ordinary lives. A new one happened this weekend when everyone was having their holiday. The IRS is now requiring all businesses no matter how small to get heath insurance policies for their employees or face $100 a day fines. That is $36,500 a year in fines per employee. It doesn't matter whether they can afford them it's just "do it." Frankly all the fuss and energy people expel here on this forum about Ukraine and Russia should be directed towards their own government screwing with their lives.
They should have had a one-payer system as it was originally intended and avoid all these Republican concessions that many are going to pay from now on. Of course, it is Obama's fault, and I say this sincerely. The man has proven to be mostly ineffective.
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Has the position I’ve taken changed? I thought it was about the same as it was 3 months ago.
1. The US stay out of the conflict….still feel the same way
2. The Russian troops were not going to invade…..they didn’t, and I don’t think they will
3. Negotiate with both sides to give those Eastern Regions more autonomy….still support that
4. Possible win-win (for most)…..still think that is possible
….Russia did take Crimea which I (alone on this website) felt at the time was the main military objective… Others called for US military involvement and felt all of Ukraine was going to be overrun. Those posters have changed their tune, but I haven’t needed to change mine, as the events thus far have supported my earlier position, which was at the time was ridiculed as being naïve. From my perspective the outstanding issue will be if an internal conflict can be averted, if so and Ukraine stabilizes and moves toward the west (like I think it will)...then I think even the media is going to claim win-win. If the new leader of Ukraine can't facilitate the stabilization of Eastern parts of Ukraine, then Ukraine loses....I think he will succeed. There still are some variables, but overall it is shaping up close to what I thought it would 3 months ago regarding no Russian invasion. I don't think it was ever on the table that these events were going to be without some fighting and deaths, but it could have been 100 or 1000 times worse.
Fathertime!
So admitting you are Van der Craats, have you been watching The World Wars on the History Channel? My God, the parallels!!! It brings chills up my spine.
Many well-intentioned people tried to avoid a war and in the end it got even worse than what they wanted to avoid because they could not just stop a madman.
Western countries tended to patronize and ignore the easterners. Russia was nothing like the threat of the Soviet Union, or so went the line in Brussels, London, Paris, Berlin and Washington. It was silly to pretend otherwise. The West thought the east Europeans – particularly the Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles and Czechs — were traumatized by their historical experience and prone to scaremongering.
That continued during much of the Putin era. Europe’s territorial defense as an issue was not just a non-subject; it was a career-killer. The conventional wisdom crystalized around the idea that Russia was not and would not be a threat. Anyone who thought differently in officialdom, especially in the foreign-policy, security, intelligence and military worlds, was wise to keep silent. Even as Russia became steadily more authoritarian and hostile, the West doubled down on its Russia policy. Even as Vladimir Putin adopted a more confrontational stance, NATO and the EU insisted that all was well and the answer to Russian snarls and sneers was yet more dialogue and integration, not confrontation or deterrence.[/size]
Does that sound familiar? In the end the west will be caught saying: Why, Oh Why We Didn't Listen To The Eastern Europeans? (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/eastern-europe-vladimir-putin-107094.html#ixzz32t34BVrW)
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So admitting you are Van der Craats, have you been watching The World Wars on the History Channel? My God, the parallels!!! It brings chills up my spine.......... In the end the west will be caught saying: Why, Oh Why We Didn't Listen To The Eastern Europeans? (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/eastern-europe-vladimir-putin-107094.html#ixzz32t34BVrW)
I have been busy yet caught a couple of History Channel episodes. deja vu in different ways.
Hitler did not start with plans for conquering Europe; he simply sought compensation for the excessive reparations forced upon Germany by the European allies. Putin wants to correct for the massive giveaways done when the CCCP collapsed.
Another key similarity is the weak response by the European countries. Hitler and Putin both took bold initial steps knowing that the Europeans would complain diplomatically yet do nothing. Europeans do not want to upset Putin and prefer to keep it "business as usual." Manny echoed this exact sentiment as follows:
Not really. Only America. Most of Europe has no issues with Russia.
The Europeans are taking the weak, dovish position yet it is the Europeans who live next to Putin and will be most affected by Putin's aggressive actions. The French are building modern aircraft carriers for Russia, etc. I still contend that the US should let Europe take the lead. If EU wants to loan Ukraine money, let them go ahead. If Europeans can tolerate higher prices for Russian gas, let them give Putin carte blanche.
The world is interconnected, yet Americans are several thousand miles away and rapidly becoming energy independent. This should not become America's problem simply because Europe is weak.
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Gator compared Putin with Hitler and yesteryear's Eurotrash with this year's crop as appeasors. Do not the Russian people bear the same responsibility as the Germans for Hitler? They do.
Russia is behind the instability in Syria, Iran and surprise! Ukraine. Today Russian and Chechen Spetsnaz are among the Separatist war dead (win win). The US has a security guarantee by the Budapest Memorandum. Thus we are involved. John McCain said America is not weak, America is unreliable. We will be unreliable as long as the donkeys stink up 1600 Penn.
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So admitting you are Van der Craats, have you been watching The World Wars on the History Channel? My God, the parallels!!! It brings chills up my spine.
Many well-intentioned people tried to avoid a war and in the end it got even worse than what they wanted to avoid because they could not just stop a madman.
Does that sound familiar? In the end the west will be caught saying: Why, Oh Why We Didn't Listen To The Eastern Europeans? (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/eastern-europe-vladimir-putin-107094.html#ixzz32t34BVrW)
Although I see why you have the viewpoint that you do, I don't see it that way.
I read the article you linked, but I have not been watching history channel so apparently I’ve been missing a good series. I did not believe those posters that were exclaiming with certainty that Putin was going deeper into Ukraine, Moldavia etc etc…It didn’t add up to me, and still doesn’t. I still believe that Russia invading Crimea was more of a defensive move than offensive. The USA did not care to intervene, a few relatively meaningless sanctions has been our response, so we can claim we did something. That is for the best because I believe had we attempted to intervene in a real way Russia would have upped the ante and gone ahead with an invasion. To this point, it appears to me that Russia has an acceptance or even possibly tacit approval (from Europe and the USA) for what they have done in Crimea.
Of course I could be wrong, all it would take is for Russia to invade the rest of Ukraine or another border nation sometime soon, but I don’t see that happening. Although quite a few people here believe Putin is behaving like Hitler did, I don’t see it that way. I don’t believe there will be a forcible rebuilding of the Soviet Union. Whether it be by design or an unintentionally byproduct, I continue to hold that both countries are going to WIN. Russia took the crucial land they think they need for security and eternal access to their ports, in part and because of that; Ukraine will be freer to change their allies/living conditions/system of govt. I think in the aftermath of the Russia/Ukraine Putin/ Poroshenko meetings there will be progress and it will build from there, without US interference. People don’t have to like/agree with this perspective, but this is a board of many viewpoints, and giving a take on the situation is what you are going to get if you choose to read. [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
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Oh the win wins keeping coming like topped off port-a-pottys in path of a hurricane.
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Oh the win wins keeping coming like topped off port-a-pottys in path of a hurricane.
Attempting to grandstand is your version of making a convincing counter argument. Wow very compelling, but I think you failed in both departments, perhaps someone more convincing will chime in! Haha!
Fathertime!
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Argue with you? Wrong again dummy. I stopped arguing with you in December when you couldn't answer all the inconsistencies in your own choose your own facts foreign policy. I am making fun of you and outlining your hypocrisy and hubris in order to further alienate you - you moral pervert. We are talking about people dying, where's you talk about hypothetical deaths like the bogus jobs created and saved crap Obama peddled. LFU, Natural, and GQDouche though they won't leave, hate the West. You can understand and appreciate their "logic" even as they stack the bodies. They answer direct questions and when they can't they retreat into name calling. You, you obtuse twit, drone on about how we are or aren't involved where as this 21st century Tony Soprano in Hitler's clothes is aactually killing people. You ignore evidence and accuse others what you yourself are doing. People HATE me on this forum but I am more popular than you are not because of my position on Putin, but because unlike you am not a complete bastard.
And since we both are being completely honest, I might be the forum's lard ass. But I have a full head of natural hair and I am young looking and better looking. So kiss your Putin loving wife with that anti-American mouth of yours Goofy.
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Argue with you? Wrong again dummy. I stopped arguing with you in December when you couldn't answer all the inconsistencies in your own choose your own facts foreign policy. I am making fun of you and outlining your hypocrisy and hubris in order to further alienate you - you moral pervert. We are talking about people dying, where's you talk about hypothetical deaths like the bogus jobs created and saved crap Obama peddled. LFU, Natural, and GQDouche though they won't leave, hate the West. You can understand and appreciate their "logic" even as they stack the bodies. They answer direct questions and when they can't they retreat into name calling. You, you obtuse twit, drone on about how we are or aren't involved where as this 21st century Tony Soprano in Hitler's clothes is aactually killing people. You ignore evidence and accuse others what you yourself are doing. People HATE me on this forum but I am more popular than you are not because of my position on Putin, but because unlike you am not a complete bastard.
And since we both are being completely honest, I might be the forum's lard ass. But I have a full head of natural hair and I am young looking and better looking. So kiss your Putin loving wife with that anti-American mouth of yours Goofy.
Very convincing and informative, the name calling is a little humorous. Hahaha. BTW…it appears you got so upset with my viewpoint that you are even bringing my harmless wife into it! Your efforts to stifle a different point of view will continue to fail. I’m glad that the USA did not get involved to the extent you wanted. I’m glad the killing has been minimized thus far. If you had your way, there would be mass graves full of Russians, ‘traitor’ Ukriainians, and young Americans. Perhaps you could regale all of us with more of your deepest thoughts.
It is interesting how some react to a point of view they don’t agree with. Thankfully LT' only represents himself, and he does it so well.
Fathertime!
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FT
given the commitments america &others made to ukraine with the budapest memorandum, the very wise and direct prudent action would have been for the UN to offer /place peacekeeprs into ukraine directly after the events on maidan 19-22nd of feb ,
this single action would have probably stopped putins action in crimea & s/east ukraien in its tracks
with the very high resulting probability of no major conflicts or deaths like we have seen to date
putin would not have taken on the UN , & with the UN involvement it would be hard to make use of his propoganda arguments he has used about ukraine to justify his actions
the above is not war mongering imho , it is a simple direct action designed to confront all partys and stop the escalation of events until ukraine could hold an election
SX
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FT
given the commitments america &others made to ukraine with the budapest memorandum, the very wise and direct prudent action would have been for the UN to offer /place peacekeeprs into ukraine directly after the events on maidan 19-22nd of feb ,
this single action would have probably stopped putins action in crimea & s/east ukraien in its tracks
with the very high resulting probability of no major conflicts or deaths like we have seen to date
putin would not have taken on the UN , & with the UN involvement it would be hard to make use of his propoganda arguments he has used about ukraine to justify his actions
the above is not war mongering imho , it is a simple direct action designed to confront all partys and stop the escalation of events until ukraine could hold an election
SX
Sorry, SX, but this sounds like a sensible idea - so it had absolutely no chance of succeeding! :wallbash:
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People HATE me on this forum but I am more popular than you are not because of my position on Putin, but because unlike you am not a complete bastard.
And since we both are being completely honest, I might be the forum's lard ass. But I have a full head of natural hair and I am young looking and better looking. So kiss your Putin loving wife with that anti-American mouth of yours Goofy.
Jesus, I hope you are not allowed around any guns. We had enough loonies shooting up people here. You need therapy dude. Seriously, get some help man. You have taken GQ's MOB definition to a whole new level.
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Father time and his imaginary dead people seeking that elusive win win.
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FT
given the commitments america &others made to ukraine with the budapest memorandum, the very wise and direct prudent action would have been for the UN to offer /place peacekeeprs into ukraine directly after the events on maidan 19-22nd of feb ,
this single action would have probably stopped putins action in crimea & s/east ukraien in its tracks
with the very high resulting probability of no major conflicts or deaths like we have seen to date
putin would not have taken on the UN , & with the UN involvement it would be hard to make use of his propoganda arguments he has used about ukraine to justify his actions
the above is not war mongering imho , it is a simple direct action designed to confront all partys and stop the escalation of events until ukraine could hold an election
SX
Hey SX,
When the chips were down it didn't appear American or European leaders thought the Budapest Memorandum was very important or questioned what their role was in enforcing it. Whether the idea you proposed would have made things better or not is hard to say for sure. It would have created a whole different set of variables, but it is interesting to think of what could have been done differently by all the different countries involved.
Fathertime!
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If Ukraine could afford to do it, They'd build a nuclear bomb or four just to officially cancel out that Budapest agreement that wasn't worth a pile of dog shait.
I doubt that Russia would have done any of this if UA were still strong enough to retaliate. They jumped in as soon as they knew that UA was weak form Yanku stealing the country blind then skipping out with his gang of thieves to Putinland.
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LOL.
The US, Political. The EU, Economics. Gas deals, Revolution. Crisis, Deaths.
It really is that simple.
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Many materials Putin needs for his nuke arsenal are in Ukraine.
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link below is agood read ,
still no win / win for the residents though
http://inforesist.org/slavyansk-resident-euphoria-wow-our-guys-are-in-town-has-already-gone/?lang=en
SX
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The French are building modern aircraft carriers for Russia, etc.
Incorrect. The French are building Russia Amphibious warfare vessels. "Mistral" class. Slightly different to the American "Wasp" class but similar in nature.
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Many materials Putin needs for his nuke arsenal are in Ukraine.
So you think Putin needs Ukraine's uranium resources to expand Russia's nuclear arsenal :o?
Russia: Approximately 1,512 strategic warheads deployed on 498 ICBMs, SLBMs, and strategic bombers. The Federation of American Scientists estimates Russia has another 1,000 nondeployed strategic warheads and approximately 2,000 tactical nuclear warheads. Additional thousands are awaiting dismantlement.
http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Nuclearweaponswhohaswhat
He seems to have enough HW already ::).
Anyway, Ukraine's mines are estimated to have produced less than 960 tons in 2012, a comparatively modest amount compared with Russia's 2,872 tons and the production of not-unfriendly states like Kazakhstan (21,317 tons, 36.5% of world supply from mines) and Uzbekistan (2,400 tons) - see http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Mining-of-Uranium/World-Uranium-Mining-Production/.
Unless you think that coal is fundamental for nuclear weapons 8).
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80% of Putin's nukes come from Ukraine.http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-07/putin-eyes-ukrainian-arms-prize-as-troops-build-up-along-border.html
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80% of Putin's nukes come from Ukraine.http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-07/putin-eyes-ukrainian-arms-prize-as-troops-build-up-along-border.html
The only mention I can find of nuclear weapons is:
Nuclear Warheads
As much as 80 percent of Russia’s nuclear warheads are loaded in missiles designed or manufactured in Ukraine and originate from the former Soviet Union, according to Wojciech Luczak, the editor in chief of Polish magazine Raport.
Since the collapse of the URSS is more than 20 years old, I think it unlikely that during all this time Russia would have been dependent on Ukraine's design & manufacturing technology - technology that appears somewhat outdated since 'investments' in that country have long been syphoned off to 'other', more lucrative areas ;) - and I doubt that a Polish magazine's editor may be much 'in the know' about Russian strategic-arms policies :-\.
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The French are delivering offensive war machines to the fascistically aggressive Russian government. They are aiding and abetting Putin in his imperialistic actions. Thus, the French are now enemies of the west and should be expelled from NATO. What have the French ever done for the western alliance since the end of WW II?
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GazProm has an American office in Houston, Texas that sends home to Moscow a couple of billion every year in profits without paying any US taxes, easily providing enough money to pay for these ships, what about that?
what about the European countries whose financial institutions bankrolled the construction of the North Stream and South Stream gas pipelines that will bypass Ukraine, what about that?
I could go on, but someone famous once said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" and then he said, "Damn it Mom!"
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Yeah? Well, expel GazProm from the US!
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Furthermore, expel Russian foreign minister Lavrov's daughter from the US!
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CC--the acquisition of the French ships pre-dates current issues by some time-- and no decision will be made on handing over until October.
As far as Russian owned assets go--I would seize everything that can be found-- I would stop ALL travel of Russian passport holders( and review case by case the bona fides) anywhere by Russian passport holders--ie freeze them wherever they are. Make companies and people prove they have acquired assets legitimately-- make individuals show how they are paying for travel etc --whatever-- and how funds were acquired.
That is only a few measures that would apply real pressure to Putin and Russia and Russians-- plus confiscate anything doubtful. That will get rid of Putin very fast and make Russia see reason and start behaving like they want to be part of the world again.
Of course-- if Russia stops sending terrorists to Ukraine-- withdraws for the Crimea and gives it back to Ukraine and respects the agreements it has just ignored etc-- then Russia could be treated as part of the world.
Those types of far reaching sanctions would have huge affect-- afterall-- what is the point of having a poultice of money-- and being stuck in Russia!!
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A few more for the FT win/win situation-- perhaps you can explain how these "winners" are going HOME to Russia from where they came in the attempt to INVADE Ukraine and finished as dead " winners" !!
The bodies of the terrorists killed during the ATO in Donetsk , began to send to. Today opiznani 33 gunmen who hails from Russia. With the city morgue began to publish their relatives, according to a story TSN.Ranok. Read more: In Slavic ATO artillery destroyed another terrorist base Today the area of the airport was taken to the morgue bodies of five militants. According to the regional administration since the beginning of the week, since the anti-terrorist operation has entered the active phase, the militants was at least 36. The terrorists themselves say actually losing much up larger.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/tila-zagiblih-teroristiv-pochali-vidpravlyati-do-rosiyi-352281.html
http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/tila-zagiblih-teroristiv-pochali-vidpravlyati-do-rosiyi-352281.html
The fact that Ukrainian authorities have continued sending dead invaders back to Russia speaks highly of their respect for life and humanity-- a pity the same cannot be said of the murderous thugs and their criminal invasion of Ukraine.
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CC--the acquisition of the French ships pre-dates current issues by some time-- and no decision will be made on handing over until October.
As far as Russian owned assets go--I would seize everything that can be found-- I would stop ALL travel of Russian passport holders( and review case by case the bona fides) anywhere by Russian passport holders--ie freeze them wherever they are. Make companies and people prove they have acquired assets legitimately-- make individuals show how they are paying for travel etc --whatever-- and how funds were acquired.
That is only a few measures that would apply real pressure to Putin and Russia and Russians-- plus confiscate anything doubtful. That will get rid of Putin very fast and make Russia see reason and start behaving like they want to be part of the world again.
Of course-- if Russia stops sending terrorists to Ukraine-- withdraws for the Crimea and gives it back to Ukraine and respects the agreements it has just ignored etc-- then Russia could be treated as part of the world.
Those types of far reaching sanctions would have huge affect-- afterall-- what is the point of having a poultice of money-- and being stuck in Russia!!
If you truly think that then you have a very short memory indeed and little understanding of what Russians can withstand.
It would be an interesting scenario indeed to see what state the US and indeed most western countries would be in if they went through similar collapses that Russians endured in the post soviet period.
Part of the popularity of Putin right now is specifically linked to the notion that unlike the leaders of most other countries he does not bow down and do the bidding of others. Rightly or wrongly I have little doubt that someone who tried to introduce western notions of "democracy" here right now would be completely shredded by some here as being weak. in any event what democracy has become in the west is debateable anyway since if the choice is A or B and there is little gap between them there is no real change to the status quo. Obama as one example employed many officials from the previous lot. Debates over trivial issues like gay marriage don't keep food on the table or mortgages paid. They are intended distractions to keep people focusing on really important things.
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I will answer politely to point out the obvious-- when the oiligarchs are hurt by sanctions-- it would not be long before the pressure would be on Putin.That will, be the fastest way to get rid of him and alter Russian direction.
My memory is neither short or lacking in understanding. My interest in Russia almost certainly is a lot longer than yours-- so apare me the condacending attitude.
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Given the incompetence of the Obama administration and the Euro-dithering, provided MadVlad doesn't invade any further than the sanctions Jay outlined are in order. Glad the Poles haven't misplaced their nuts.
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A few more for the FT win/win situation-- perhaps you can explain how these "winners" are going HOME to Russia from where they came in the attempt to INVADE Ukraine and finished as dead " winners" !!
The confident ignorance your posts exude is worth a chuckle. Did you REALLY think that these sorts of countrywide events occur without people dying?...and you were calling Deccie ignorant?
There will be no sweeping sanctions like you demand as the countries are not going to shoot themselves in the foot over Crimea…a place where many, if not most are delighted to be back in the Russian fold.
you already predicted that V. Putin will be ousted very soon....doubtful.... You also predicted that Russia was going to invade all of Ukraine...never happened... You also wanted the USA to commence bombing....Obama said absolutely not One resulting occurrence from the Ukraine situation there are signs that countries are unifying against the USA....that is probably ok with you since you don't live in our country. Although we could have gotten more involved in Ukraine, many already believe that we have overstepped as this is a Russian/Ukrainian issue. There will be no isolation of Russia, they are forming new ties and will persevere through the halfhearted sanctions we have placed. France will finish their work and fulfill there contractual obligations, as they also apparently don't equate Putin to Hitler.
Fathertime!
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"-the acquisition of the French ships pre-dates current issues by some time-- and no decision will be made on handing over until October."
JayH, French stab the western alliance in the back, yet again. The decision to deliver the carriers has already been made:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/13/France-to-sell-carriers-to-russia
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"You also predicted that Russia was going to invade all of Ukraine...never happened... "
FT, the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine is ongoing, albeit semi-covertly, with GRU-led Chechnyan mercs and a varied assortment of Russian military-trained gangsters:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/30/us-ukraine-crisis-defence-idUSKBN0EA0LN20140530
My fiancee, living in Luhansk, reports to me there are many men under 30 yo, speaking Russian accented Russian, riding the marshrutkas throughout the city, whereas, before the crisis, Russians visiting the city were middle to upper middle class in their own SUVs, in Luhansk to shop, and not riding public transit.
Yesterday, she saw something extremely distressing, an open vehicle full of foreign-looking, bearded, heavily armed men, i.e.: Chechnyans. She is trying to brave out staying in Luhansk until the end of her academic session, at the end of June. I am beseeching her to escape westward now, while she and her daughter can. This is no longer a 'game' between Putin and Kyiv. It is the beginning of a full-on terroristic campaign against the civil population of the Donbass.
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The confident ignorance your posts exude is worth a chuckle. Did you REALLY think that these sorts of countrywide events occur without people dying?...and you were calling Deccie ignorant?
There will be no sweeping sanctions like you demand as the countries are not going to shoot themselves in the foot over Crimea…a place where many, if not most are delighted to be back in the Russian fold.
you already predicted that V. Putin will be ousted very soon....doubtful.... You also predicted that Russia was going to invade all of Ukraine...never happened... You also wanted the USA to commence bombing....Obama said absolutely not One resulting occurrence from the Ukraine situation there are signs that countries are unifying against the USA....that is probably ok with you since you don't live in our country. Although we could have gotten more involved in Ukraine, many already believe that we have overstepped as this is a Russian/Ukrainian issue. There will be no isolation of Russia, they are forming new ties and will persevere through the halfhearted sanctions we have placed. France will finish their work and fulfill there contractual obligations, as they also apparently don't equate Putin to Hitler.
Fathertime!
Your propensity to attempt to pat yourself on the back by rewriting what was actually said on forum is comic.
You keep making unsubstantiated assertions about what Ukrainians think--what Crimeans think.It is straight out of Kremlin propaganda-essentially an invention.Perhaps you could show me where I unequivocally said Russia was going to invade ALL of Ukraine? Or where I ever said the US should be bombing Russia?
But let us deal with the issue of your assertion that Russia has not invaded Ukraine--leaving aside the undisputable fact that they have in the Crimea-- and let us look at mainland Ukraine.(btw--I did note your attempt to redefine what constituted an invasion-- for those that missed it-- FT defines a Russian invasion where the Kremlin has called it as such !!)
Exactly who do you think these pieces of shit killed in Ukraine and being sent back to Russia dead are?
Quoting & translated
"Cargo 200" went to a Russian mother. Ukrainian border guards will leave "Cargo 200" More than three dozen coffins with the bodies of the militants killed during the liberation of Donetsk airport is now moving in the direction of Russia - said in a story TSN.19 30 . Near the porch of Donetsk Regional State Administration in the morning there was a thirty coffins. In them - the bodies of militants, killed on Monday during a fight at the local airport. The day before, witnesses said, the men of the Russian battalion "Vostok" put all the fans of "DNR" from their busy construction administration. Some say that it is connected with looting, robbery particular store, the products of which later found in the separatists. The leader of the self-proclaimed republic to answer the question of whether he was acquainted with the victims refused. But call them volunteers, who defended the interests of the country."
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html
http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html
In your ridiculous win/win comments you have sought to rationalise this Russian attempt to hijack parts of eastern Ukraine-- what we have seen is these terrorists killing,robbing,destroying Ukrainian cities-- you seem to think all that is ok. have you asked yourself why these people( Russia that is) are so hell bent on NOT allowing a vote in the area? It has been pointed out many times that the large majority( perhaps as high as 95%) of people want nothing to do with Russia.
Have you asked yourself how these Russian cretins can cross the border from Russia heavily armed--in effect waved thru from the Russian side?
Your proposition that countries are unifying against the USA is another looney comment--no basis of fact.You make numerous assertions of what I said that are incorrect--FULL STOP.
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Hey Retard, how much you want to bet?
You have proven to be untrustworthy and unstable so I would not receive payment…based on all your other predictions being wrong it would be easy money.
Fathertime!
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Your propensity to attempt to pat yourself on the back by rewriting what was actually said on forum is comic.
You keep making unsubstantiated assertions about what Ukrainians think--what Crimeans think.It is straight out of Kremlin propaganda-essentially an invention.Perhaps you could show me where I unequivocally said Russia was going to invade ALL of Ukraine? Or where I ever said the US should be bombing Russia?
But let us deal with the issue of your assertion that Russia has not invaded Ukraine--leaving aside the undisputable fact that they have in the Crimea-- and let us look at mainland Ukraine.(btw--I did note your attempt to redefine what constituted an invasion-- for those that missed it-- FT defines a Russian invasion where the Kremlin has called it as such !!)
Exactly who do you think these pieces of shit killed in Ukraine and being sent back to Russia dead are?
Quoting & translated
"Cargo 200" went to a Russian mother. Ukrainian border guards will leave "Cargo 200" More than three dozen coffins with the bodies of the militants killed during the liberation of Donetsk airport is now moving in the direction of Russia - said in a story TSN.19 30 . Near the porch of Donetsk Regional State Administration in the morning there was a thirty coffins. In them - the bodies of militants, killed on Monday during a fight at the local airport. The day before, witnesses said, the men of the Russian battalion "Vostok" put all the fans of "DNR" from their busy construction administration. Some say that it is connected with looting, robbery particular store, the products of which later found in the separatists. The leader of the self-proclaimed republic to answer the question of whether he was acquainted with the victims refused. But call them volunteers, who defended the interests of the country."
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html (http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html)
http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html (http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html)
In your ridiculous win/win comments you have sought to rationalise this Russian attempt to hijack parts of eastern Ukraine-- what we have seen is these terrorists killing,robbing,destroying Ukrainian cities-- you seem to think all that is ok. have you asked yourself why these people( Russia that is) are so hell bent on NOT allowing a vote in the area? It has been pointed out many times that the large majority( perhaps as high as 95%) of people want nothing to do with Russia.
Have you asked yourself how these Russian cretins can cross the border from Russia heavily armed--in effect waved thru from the Russian side?
Your proposition that countries are unifying against the USA is another looney comment--no basis of fact.You make numerous assertions of what I said that are incorrect--FULL STOP.
I don’t believe it is a Russian invasion. If extremists are crossing, joining the ranks of Ukrainians and helping to make trouble, that is not the same as an invasion. After Russia invaded and took Crimea, they had a several month period where they could have invaded much of Ukraine with very little problem…during those months parts of the Ukrainian army was even abandoning their equipment and siding with people. I don’t believe Russia intended to, or are at the moment making an effort to invade…if they were interested it would have already been done… There will be no invasion unless the west gets too aggressive in Russia’s backyard….all indications are that will not happen, as even France is selling Russia war equipment...and the sanctions for invading Crimea have been light enough to be called a tickle.
Your efforts to demonize everything Russian have been overboard. I continue to believe that there are two sides to this story despite you being interested in pretending there is only one. Soon there will be meetings between the leaders and I believe things will be worked out over time, and both sides will be able to win something from it....and you will be left scratching your head wondering who you are supposed to hate now!
Fathertime!
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"You also predicted that Russia was going to invade all of Ukraine...never happened... "
FT, the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine is ongoing, albeit semi-covertly, with GRU-led Chechnyan mercs and a varied assortment of Russian military-trained gangsters:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/30/us-ukraine-crisis-defence-idUSKBN0EA0LN20140530 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/30/us-ukraine-crisis-defence-idUSKBN0EA0LN20140530)
My fiancee, living in Luhansk, reports to me there are many men under 30 yo, speaking Russian accented Russian, riding the marshrutkas throughout the city, whereas, before the crisis, Russians visiting the city were middle to upper middle class in their own SUVs, in Luhansk to shop, and not riding public transit.
Yesterday, she saw something extremely distressing, an open vehicle full of foreign-looking, bearded, heavily armed men, i.e.: Chechnyans. She is trying to brave out staying in Luhansk until the end of her academic session, at the end of June. I am beseeching her to escape westward now, while she and her daughter can. This is no longer a 'game' between Putin and Kyiv. It is the beginning of a full-on terroristic campaign against the civil population of the Donbass.
Hi CC3,
I believe what you are saying is true. I believe there are a % of foreigners contributing to the unrest. I am not convinced that Russia is directly responsible though. I wouldn't doubt if they allowed people to cross as the Russian position appears to strengthen for the moment if things remain in flux within Ukraine ....it would be Ukraine's responsibility to stop people at border checkpoints that they don't want to enter. Ukraine should make it a priority to secure their border if there is enough loyalty within the army to do so. I saw today that all the Russian troops on the border have left.
http://screen.yahoo.com/nearly-russian-troops-ukraine-border-174605629.html (http://screen.yahoo.com/nearly-russian-troops-ukraine-border-174605629.html)
Fathertime!
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I will answer politely to point out the obvious-- when the oiligarchs are hurt by sanctions-- it would not be long before the pressure would be on Putin.That will, be the fastest way to get rid of him and alter Russian direction.
My memory is neither short or lacking in understanding. My interest in Russia almost certainly is a lot longer than yours-- so apare me the condacending attitude.
You make a huge assumption there. My interest in Russia dates back until about the age of 8 and certainly predates any notions of finding a partner here.
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Hey Retard, how much you want to bet?
Wow, the strength and eloquence of your argument is just astounding.
You sound every bit the bully yourself that your are supposedly complaining about others.
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I don’t believe it is a Russian invasion. . . After Russia invaded and took Crimea, . . . I don’t believe Russia intended…if they were interested it would have already been done…
Your efforts to demonize everything Russian have been overboard. . . . both sides will be able to win something from it....
Fathertime!
This guy is an idiot. Language omitted. Anyone who knows Jay knows he hates violence and hates hate more than people. But he has a conscience unlike Dr. Strangelove.
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Hi CC3,
I believe what you are saying is true. I believe there are a % of foreigners contributing to the unrest. I am not convinced that Russia is directly responsible though. I wouldn't doubt if they allowed people to cross as the Russian position appears to strengthen for the moment if things remain in flux within Ukraine ....it would be Ukraine's responsibility to stop people at border checkpoints that they don't want to enter. Ukraine should make it a priority to secure their border if there is enough loyalty within the army to do so. I saw today that all the Russian troops on the border have left.
http://screen.yahoo.com/nearly-russian-troops-ukraine-border-174605629.html (http://screen.yahoo.com/nearly-russian-troops-ukraine-border-174605629.html)
Fathertime!
What made the news here yesterday is that Chechen fighters are making their way to Ukraine.
If it was published on the news one can assume it has official sanction and approval.
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Wow, the strength and eloquence of your argument is just astounding.
You sound every bit the bully yourself that your are supposedly complaining about others.
I'm sorry. Does Putin have another mouthpiece? By all means proceed counselor, tell us how Putin is justified in killing his own people to save his political skin.
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I will answer politely to point out the obvious-- when the oiligarchs are hurt by sanctions-- it would not be long before the pressure would be on Putin.That will, be the fastest way to get rid of him and alter Russian direction.
My memory is neither short or lacking in understanding. My interest in Russia almost certainly is a lot longer than yours-- so apare me the condacending attitude.
I think you misunderstand completely what is going on in Russia right now. Those oligarchs not aligned with the leadership are being steadily separated from their assets. That process is continuing.
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They are NOT carriers. They are amphibious warfare vessels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship
They are helicopter carriers. Big deal . . .
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I'm sorry. Does Putin have another mouthpiece? By all means proceed counselor, tell us how Putin is justified in killing his own people to save his political skin.
Whatever Putin does, is that a reason you for to be a bully and insult other members here? Right this second I'm interested in YOUR behavior. Does that standard meet the TOS of this forum?
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They are helicopter carriers. Big deal . . .
They are much, much more than helicopter carriers. A helicopter carrier is a flat deck with a hangar.
These things can also carry up to 70 vehicles or 450 troops. They also have a flood-able well deck. Ships of a previous generation (Intrepid and Fearless) were key to the British being able to re-take the Falklands.
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OK.
Father time, you have a champion. There is a turd stinkier than you.
Looks like your going to keep the moderaters busy today my lad.
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Pick a charity turd merchant. If $ 10 is too much for you, I understand. Ukraine is repatriating the bodies of the Vostok Battalion. Slavs are fighting Slavs doesn't play well in the oblasts. Would you care to revise your statements? Monster
OK.
Father time, you have a champion. There is a turd stinkier than you.
I got to giggle at your angry name-calling, as I know it shows your frustration and since your goal is to stifle other points of view you should be frustrated, as you will fail! It appears that you that you have shown no honor or discipline (probably throughout your life) and your stability is questionable. You do not represent the American point of view, you represent a very small minority, and you will not be permitted to dictate unfettered.
As for me, I am content enough to be able to speak my piece and let others give the thoughts some consideration and then draw their own conclusions...even if they are different than the ones I've drawn.
Fathertime!
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What made the news here yesterday is that Chechen fighters are making their way to Ukraine.
There have been Chechens, Russians and Transnistrians in Ukraine for some time now. Nice guys to come help their fellow brothers.
http://inforesist.org/43-corpses-of-kadyrovits-have-been-buried-in-chechnya-already-32-people-are-missing-photo-18/?lang=en (http://inforesist.org/43-corpses-of-kadyrovits-have-been-buried-in-chechnya-already-32-people-are-missing-photo-18/?lang=en)
http://news.vice.com/article/yes-there-are-chechen-fighters-in-ukraine-and-nobody-knows-who-sent-them-there (http://news.vice.com/article/yes-there-are-chechen-fighters-in-ukraine-and-nobody-knows-who-sent-them-there)
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They are much, much more than helicopter carriers. A helicopter carrier is a flat deck with a hangar.
These things can also carry up to 70 vehicles or 450 troops. They also have a flood-able well deck. Ships of a previous generation (Intrepid and Fearless) were key to the British being able to re-take the Falklands.
Your response is obtuse. Its still a ship that carries aircraft. Quibble on that.
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There have been Chechens, Russians and Transnistrians in Ukraine for some time now. Nice guys to come help their fellow brothers.
http://inforesist.org/43-corpses-of-kadyrovits-have-been-buried-in-chechnya-already-32-people-are-missing-photo-18/?lang=en (http://inforesist.org/43-corpses-of-kadyrovits-have-been-buried-in-chechnya-already-32-people-are-missing-photo-18/?lang=en)
http://news.vice.com/article/yes-there-are-chechen-fighters-in-ukraine-and-nobody-knows-who-sent-them-there (http://news.vice.com/article/yes-there-are-chechen-fighters-in-ukraine-and-nobody-knows-who-sent-them-there)
Don't you dare accuse the Russian President of such malfeasance!!!!
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I got to giggle at your angry name-calling, as I know it shows your frustration and since your goal is to stifle other points of view you should be frustrated, as you will fail! It appears that you that you have shown no honor or discipline (probably throughout your life) and your stability is questionable. You do not represent the American point of view, you represent a very small minority, and you will not be permitted to dictate unfettered.
As for me, I am content enough to be able to speak my piece and let others give the thoughts some consideration and then draw their own conclusions...even if they are different than the ones I've drawn.
Fathertime!
This from a man who doesn't see it when others point out the clay feces in his argument. Tell us the win win where one nation gets to lord over another and they have no rights or sovereignty. Tell us what you did to earn your freedom and safety but not the Ukrainians. Tell us about the compassion you have for those suffering at the hands of your botox master . . .
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Don't you dare accuse the Russian President of such malfeasance!!!!
Of course he had nothing to do with it. Paid locals and seasoned troops from all over came to help their fellow brother. Just rolled right through Russia in convoys with weapons. Just coincidence the city in which most of the action is occurring happens to be a strategic location.
The little green men in Crimea were probably Vnevedomstvenaya Okhrana, so private security forces. Nothing to do with Putin...
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MANPADS that shoot choppers out of the sky win-win have nothing to do with King Botox
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This from a man who doesn't see it when others point out the clay feces in his argument. Tell us the win win where one nation gets to lord over another and they have no rights or sovereignty. Tell us what you did to earn your freedom and safety but not the Ukrainians. Tell us about the compassion you have for those suffering at the hands of your botox master . . .
From my perspective you are the one making poor arguments. I don’t believe the one-sided narrative you have attempted to present. From the reading/video’s I’ve seen I’ve concluded that the people of Ukraine are a large part of the uprising aggressively and passively. I believe that the approach you wanted to take was ridiculous, and would have led to many more deaths and a wider war, with other people’s children at risk. It appears many foreigners and Ukraine countrymen feel strong enough about the issue to fight for their respective sides. The Europeans obviously don’t feel as strong about the issue and neither do the general populace of the USA. The USA should not be in the business of picking winners from across the globe…we have done quite a bit of that lately and it is backfiring.
In addition to all of this, we have no leg to stand on regardless. We are arming rebels in faraway locations that we would like to...If Russia turns a blind eye, I don't see our nation as the one that has the credibility to call them out...that is probably one of the many reasons Obama is standing down and not placing meaningful repercussions on Russia. I believe it to be the right call for the USA.
Fathertime!
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I am still waiting to see how you can explain who the bodies are being sent back to Russia are?
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I am still waiting to see how you can explain who the bodies are being sent back to Russia are?
There is nothing to explain....I would assume they are Russians or why would they be sent to Russia?....now where is your indisputable proof that they are part of an invasion force, and not extremists, or men representing part of their family in the region? I believe if Russia wanted to invade they could have done it simply and swiftly, and not monkeyed around with a ragtag group of 50 year old men that would be outnumbered and outgunned by the Ukrainian army.
Fathertime!
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monkeyed around with a ragtag group of 50 year old men that would be outnumbered and outgunned by the Ukrainian army.
The trucks full of soldiers and bodies don't look like 50 year old men to me. The UA army is untrained and Chechens are some of the the most brutal and feared fighters.
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From my perspective you are the one making poor arguments. I don’t believe the one-sided narrative you have attempted to present. From the reading/video’s I’ve seen I’ve concluded that the people of Ukraine are a large part of the uprising aggressively and passively. I believe that the approach you wanted to take was ridiculous, and would have led to many more deaths and a wider war, with other people’s children at risk. It appears many foreigners and Ukraine countrymen feel strong enough about the issue to fight for their respective sides. The Europeans obviously don’t feel as strong about the issue and neither do the general populace of the USA. The USA should not be in the business of picking winners from across the globe…we have done quite a bit of that lately and it is backfiring.
In addition to all of this, we have no leg to stand on regardless. We are arming rebels in faraway locations that we would like to...If Russia turns a blind eye, I don't see our nation as the one that has the credibility to call them out...that is probably one of the many reasons Obama is standing down and not placing meaningful repercussions on Russia. I believe it to be the right call for the USA.
Fathebook,e!
Another straw man argument from a closeted Putin lover. You don't know a damn thing about me or my views of Ukraine. I don't believe that CC3 (who doesn't like me BTW) should be beaten up for his nationality. You do. Indefensible in my book, but you dear reader be the judge
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The trucks full of soldiers and bodies don't look like 50 year old men to me. The UA army is untrained and Chechens are some of the the most brutal and feared fighters.
Someone tell captain thin skins that Chechens can't make war without Putler's permission?
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Another straw man argument from a closeted Putin lover. You don't know a damn thing about me or my views of Ukraine. I don't believe that CC3 (who doesn't like me BTW) should be beaten up for his nationality. You do. Indefensible in my book, but you dear reader be the judge
1. If posters don’t know your views of Ukraine then you are either lying or addled through your posts as you have probably made several hundred posts on the subject.
2. I have made MY views clear and don’t pretend to have hidden views on the subject…like you claim.
3. Putin lover…just a silly distraction adding no value to whatever you are attempting to say.
4. Cc3…I never said he should be beat up or anything of the sort…that is you trying to backdoor brownnose….very transparent.
5. Your post didn’t say anything of importance…just untruths *Putin lover, cc3 beat up*
Fathertime!
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Who is obsessed now win win?
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Who is obsessed now win win?
I'd say YOU are...the reason being...you care so much about my opinion that you make efforts to drown it out *unsuccessfully* and I really don't care what you think, or care to change your opinion! :D
Fathertime!
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Your response is obtuse. Its still a ship that carries aircraft. Quibble on that.
Battleships used to carry aircraft. Call them an aircraft carrier would you?
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I'd say YOU are...the reason being...you care so much about my opinion that you make efforts to drown it out *unsuccessfully* and I really don't care what you think, or care to change your opinion! :D
Fathertime!
FT, don't wast time watching his 'in the car alone with nothing else to do rants' on youtube.. I tried a couple, could only fast forward.. what a douche bucket that runneth over.. crap.. now he has me calling names..
Just ignore him.
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I'd say YOU are...the reason being...you care so much about my opinion that you make efforts to drown it out *unsuccessfully* and I really don't care what you think, or care to change your opinion! :D
Fathertime!
HI CC3!
I am sorry your girlfriend lives in a free fire zone against the will of the people. But maybe this is a win win. Putin has pulled back and won't invade right now. So go ahead and move just don't speak English and if you are flying air raft beware of MANPADS. They have been known to pop up out of no where.
Father Whine!
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While the Ukrainian separatism in the Donbas is mostly artificial, aspirations to independence of regions in Russia is under a very real foundation. Moscow is the colonial ruler, which collects from its colonies regions every penny funds, returning back only a small fraction. Hence the myth of Moscow, feeding the Caucasus. In Dagestan, joking, "Enough to feed us, give drink already!" All a lot of money from this republic will cater to the federal treasury, and returns back a tiny part, precisely to support pants. Potentially rich region vegetate on handouts Kremlin, while could not develop worse Emirates or Saudi Arabia. But all who dare to hint at the republic of independence from Russia, will be immediately stripped Moscow riot police.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyla7wbqm2M#t=152
Putin & Russia have more problems than they realise.
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While the Ukrainian separatism in the Donbas is mostly artificial, aspirations to independence of regions in Russia is under a very real foundation. Moscow is the colonial ruler, which collects from its colonies regions every penny funds, returning back only a small fraction. Hence the myth of Moscow, feeding the Caucasus. In Dagestan, joking, "Enough to feed us, give drink already!" All a lot of money from this republic will cater to the federal treasury, and returns back a tiny part, precisely to support pants. Potentially rich region vegetate on handouts Kremlin, while could not develop worse Emirates or Saudi Arabia. But all who dare to hint at the republic of independence from Russia, will be immediately stripped Moscow riot police.
Was not WA complaining of exactly the same thing just recently? That they were paying far more in tax than they were receiving back?
Emirates is not a great example. Qatar is far more rich per head. Emirates survives on being a trade hub more than anything.
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Jay an evidence based approach always fails with the Putin lovers.
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Hi CC3,
I believe what you are saying is true. I believe there are a % of foreigners contributing to the unrest. I am not convinced that Russia is directly responsible though. I wouldn't doubt if they allowed people to cross as the Russian position appears to strengthen for the moment if things remain in flux within Ukraine ....it would be Ukraine's responsibility to stop people at border checkpoints that they don't want to enter. Ukraine should make it a priority to secure their border if there is enough loyalty within the army to do so. I saw today that all the Russian troops on the border have left.
http://screen.yahoo.com/nearly-russian-troops-ukraine-border-174605629.html (http://screen.yahoo.com/nearly-russian-troops-ukraine-border-174605629.html)
Fathertime!
FT, here is what the Georgian defense minister has to say about what forms and agents are involved in a Russian covert insurgency/invasion (and Georgia has much, much more experience than either you or I when it comes to Russian undermining of national sovereignty and independence):
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/07/what-to-do-when-russia-invades-your-country.html
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Rwd taking pro-putin moderation. Ft's avatar upside down looks like half my scrotom
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No LT, RWD is doing nothing of the kind I am
Im not pro or anti Putin
I am for.. stopping this endless and pointless exchange of insults. Does anyone really think they can sway someone to their way of thinking by insulting them? It serves absolutely no purpose here what so ever and does not contribute at all it only detracts from the value of this otherwise successful website.
LT is certainly not the only guilty one in that regard not by a long shot... but it's gotta stop fellas. This site, and the guy that created it deserves better.
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Another straw man argument from a closeted Putin lover. You don't know a damn thing about me or my views of Ukraine. I don't believe that CC3 (who doesn't like me BTW) should be beaten up for his nationality. You do. Indefensible in my book, but you dear reader be the judge
LT, you have slightly wounded me. Although I do feel that you react excessively to oppositional posters, I did not realize that I had given you reason to believe that I carry any animus toward you. I actually am educated, in a slight, diminutive way by the discourse between you and fathertime. You both are intelligent men, but highly captive to your individual belief systems. The repartee between you both is highly instructive to me about human nature. By the way, there is only one person whom I believe about the situation in east UA because she is extremely intelligent, mature, independent of thought, loyal to her nation, and living right in the middle of the crisis in Luhansk. She reports truth. Almost no one else on this forum really knows what is going on...they write with emotion, about what they believe might be occurring. There is zero credibility in most posts on the crisis in Donbas, unless the poster is a resident or his partner is residing there.
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Rwd taking pro-putin moderation. Ft's avatar upside down looks like half my scrotom
ha! Nice try, but no one is believing you. I think it is obvious you haven't seen your scrotum in quite some time.
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http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-acknowledges-sending-aid-to-eastern-ukraine-separatist-leader-visits-moscow/2014/06/11/11dad9e3-2d08-4169-9aca-510c53bfca02_story.html
Russia admits aiding Rebels
Anything still in denial about this Russian invasion?
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Generally it is always impossible to see clearly in the case of a war or a political conflict, what is really going on. The promoted issues are NEVER the real issues. Never have been. Politics is a dirty business that consists of lies (and I'm not alone in this: http://www.citationtube.com/voltaire-politics-en-175.html )So it makes no real sense to take any side. It's never good against evil, it's always evil against evil...
(http://www.citationtube.com/voltaire-politics-en-175.html)
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Easy to say when its not your ass getting kicked.
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...it's always evil against evil...
(http://www.citationtube.com/voltaire-politics-en-175.html)
What if the lesser of two evils is absolutely wicked through and through?
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more on the invasion of ukraine
http://aco.nato.int/statement-on-russian-main-battle-tanks.aspx
SX
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another very good article below on the reality of whats going on in ukraine imo
lets hope it does not come to fruition
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/07/14/dmitry-tymchuk-a-couple-of-words-about-current-events-in-eastern-ukraine/
SX
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Meanwhile, this is what one of Russia's most watched television stations was reporting -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf8Gt2Wnv74
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Those are some sick minded people who would put a story like that out... and stupid! Do they really think that a story like that wouldn't come out and spread across the world in this day and age with communications being as advanced as they are? Someone there would have had an iphone or something and record such an horrific act if it really happened, or at the least many people would be telling the same story instead of just one woman. What a joke!
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The pity of this is, as we've seen before, that this actress seems extremely plausible if you don't know the city's geography (name of the main square) or industries (lack of coal-mining). How many watching this as reported would have the local knowledge to know that her story was a lie? I certainly wouldn't, although the story seems far-fetched to me in any case, and I doubt that there would be many members of this forum who would either. How many on here have actually been to Slavyansk?
The other thing that struck me was that only brain-dead zombies would stand by and let it happen as described. No matter what the threat might be (guns, screams of "you will be next if you interfere!" or similar), SOMEBODY would have tried to stop what was happening.
With a main public square supposedly packed with mothers, the execution squad would not have got out alive. :exploding:
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Meanwhile, this is what one of Russia's most watched television stations was reporting -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf8Gt2Wnv74
the ukraine reporting of that ''story '' below
New low in Russia's propaganda war
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/halya-coynash-new-low-in-russias-propaganda-war-356010.html
SX
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And yet some people still deny THEY are the scum of the world.
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Those are some sick minded people who would put a story like that out... and stupid! Do they really think that a story like that wouldn't come out and spread across the world in this day and age with communications being as advanced as they are? Someone there would have had an iphone or something and record such an horrific act if it really happened, or at the least many people would be telling the same story instead of just one woman. What a joke!
Actually, that was the doings of the Obama administration trying to discredit the Russian government as if they were creating propaganda. You can clearly see the background is somewhere in Burbank, CA.
Yep.
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The pity of this is, as we've seen before, that this actress seems extremely plausible if you don't know the city's geography (name of the main square) or industries (lack of coal-mining). How many watching this as reported would have the local knowledge to know that her story was a lie? I certainly wouldn't, although the story seems far-fetched to me in any case, and I doubt that there would be many members of this forum who would either. How many on here have actually been to Slavyansk?
Absolutrely. Do you really believe that the average Russian can tell the difference between Slavyask and Burbank, CA?
The other thing that struck me was that only brain-dead zombies would stand by and let it happen as described. No matter what the threat might be (guns, screams of "you will be next if you interfere!" or similar), SOMEBODY would have tried to stop what was happening.
With a main public square supposedly packed with mothers, the execution squad would not have got out alive. :exploding:
Now wait a minute. Don't you know that ALL Ukrainians are godless souls that would martyr anyone who opposes their fascist views?
Yep.
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the ukraine reporting of that ''story '' below
New low in Russia's propaganda war
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/halya-coynash-new-low-in-russias-propaganda-war-356010.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/halya-coynash-new-low-in-russias-propaganda-war-356010.html)
SX
Lies, lies and nothing but lies. She is a saintly Russian woman from western Ukraine.
Yep.
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US- Russia war on who-will-be-supplying-EU-with-gas looks like destroying Ukraine.
Whatever the outcome there will be loads of pretty young not very fussy girls available to MOB crowd. And perhaps even more Ukrainian prostitutes on Russian streets.
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I don't believe this is, or ever was, about who is supplying the EU with gas.
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US- Russia war on who-will-be-supplying-EU-with-gas looks like destroying Ukraine.
Whatever the outcome there will be loads of pretty young not very fussy girls available to MOB crowd. And perhaps even more Ukrainian prostitutes on Russian streets.
I thought you had family in Ukraine. Funny way to express yourself about the future of your family.
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We do not know what happen with family members, there is currently no internet connection of phone response. So very much for brining democracy to one more country.
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We do not know what happen with family members, there is currently no internet connection of phone response. So very much for brining democracy to one more country.
That was the smartest, most eloquent responses I've heard from a sheeple.
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That was the smartest, most eloquent responses I've heard from a sheeple.
why do I even care
Mod3 - because we do warn users who insult.
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another take on the story questioning its basis of facts etc
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/15/there-s-no-evidence-the-ukrainian-army-crucified-a-child-in-slovyansk.html#
SX
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another take on the story questioning its basis of facts etc
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/15/there-s-no-evidence-the-ukrainian-army-crucified-a-child-in-slovyansk.html# (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/15/there-s-no-evidence-the-ukrainian-army-crucified-a-child-in-slovyansk.html#)
SX
“Most of the guys I know decided to join the fighting in Ukraine after the [/size]Odessa fire (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/03/carnage-in-ukraine-dozens-of-pro-russia-activists-die-in-odessa.html)[/color][/size],” Surkov, a former history student at Moscow State University, told The Daily Beast. “When I hear on television how Ukrainians are killing children, my blood boils.”
[/size]
[/size]
[/size]I guess the KGB, oops, FSB achieved its goal.
[/size]
[/size]Meh, but what the hell are we listening to Russian traitors like Navalny? All the Russians flocking to Eastern Ukraine are saintly people rescuing their little brothers from the NAZI murderers.
[/size]
[/size]Yep.
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Bloomberg News U.S., EU Escalate Russia Sanctions as Putin Holds Firm By Margaret Talev and Indira A.R. Lakshmanan July 16, 2014
The EU said it would halt lending for new public-sector projects in Russia by the European Investment Bank, the bloc’s in-house lender, and will use its influence to stop new lending by the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.
“These sanctions are significant,” U.S. President Barack Obama said today at the White House. “But they are also targeted, designed to have maximum impact on Russia while limiting any spillover effects on American companies or those who are allies.”
At a news conference in Brasilia, Russian President Vladimir Putin called the U.S. sanctions “aggressive policy” and will only end up hurting American companies. The sanctions will lead U.S.-Russia relations to a dead end, he said.
Video........
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-07-16/u-dot-s-dot-preparing-to-hit-russia-with-fresh-sanctions
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why do I even care
Mod3 - because we do warn users who insult.
Interesting. That was NOT her original response. But, what the hey. I'm a big boy. I can take it.
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this article highlights the possibilitys clearly i think
SX
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/nato-unprepared-threats-from-russia
Nato unprepared for potential threats from Russia, say MPs
Cross-party report issued as group of former Russian and European defence ministers warn of risk of accidental war
Richard Norton-Taylor and Julian Borger
The Guardian, Thursday 31 July 2014
Igor Strelkov, who fought in the Russian military and is now with the separatists, highlights the ambiguous relationship betwen Russia and the Ukraine conflict, according to the ex-ministers' report. Photograph: Bulent Kilic/AFP/Getty Images
Nato is ill-prepared to confront new threats posed by Russia, and members of the western military alliance may not have the collective political will to take concerted action to deter an attack, a cross-party group of MPs warn on Thursday.
Nato's command and control structures, the alliance's ability to predict and give adequate warning of a potential attack and the state of its forces are all seriously deficient, the Commons defence committee says.
The committee's findings come at a time of exceptionally fraught and volatile relations between Russia and the west. Intense gun battles are raging between Ukrainian military forces and pro-Russian rebels around the crash site of Malaysia Airlines MH17 preventing international investigators from approaching the scene.
Sweeping US and EU sanctions on Russia this week are the most severe since the end of the cold war. On Wednesday, G7 leaders said they are prepared to "further intensify the costs" to Russia if it does not change its policy of supporting separatists in the Ukraine.
The MPs' warning has been issued at the same time as another report, by a group of former Russian and European defence and foreign ministers, warning of the increasing likelihood of an unplanned, direct clash between Russian and Nato forces leading to an accidental war, and calling for communication between the two sides to be improved.
"Russian military forces have been stationed near and have exercised close to Ukraine's borders. Nato has announced additional force deployments in eastern Europe," the ministers – including Sir Malcolm Rifkind, the former UK foreign and defence secretary, Des Browne, another former defence secretary, and Igor Ivanov, Russia's former defence minister – write in a report on crisis management in Europe.
"We remain deeply concerned … that the situation on the ground may yet escalate, putting the security of everyone in Ukraine, and Europe, at risk."
In the closest encounter to date, a Russian fighter jet buzzed a US destroyer a dozen times on 14 April in the Black Sea at a height of just 500ft, drawing accusations of recklessness and lack of professionalism from the US navy. Moscow accused the US ship of staying too long in the Black Sea in violation of a 1936 international convention.
"With Ukraine doing better militarily, there is an acute dilemma for [Vladimir] Putin on whether to raise the stakes. It's a dangerous cocktail," said Ian Kearns, director of the European Leadership Network, which published the ministers' report.
"Given this dynamic, it is easy for events to unfold in a way none of the key players intended. It's an illusion we can keep all of this under control indefinitely."
The Commons defence committee said Nato should consider broadening the terms of a key article in its founding treaty triggering collective action in the event of "an armed attack against one or more" of its members.
The MPs argued that given the threat of unconventional "ambiguous warfare", the word "armed" should be removed from the clause, so that Nato could respond effectively to any kind of attack.
"Events in Ukraine demonstrate in particular Russia's ability to effectively paralyse an opponent in the pursuit of its interests with a range of tools including psychological operations, information warfare and intimidation with massing of conventional forces," said the MPs.
"Such operations may be designed to slip below Nato's threshold for reaction. In many circumstances, such operations are also deniable, increasing the difficulties for an adversary in mounting a credible and legitimate response."
The report says Nato must deploy more military equipment to the Baltic states, maintain a "continuous presence" of troops training and exercising in the Baltic, and beef up Nato's rapid reaction force.
Nato must also develop new tactics to respond to the threat of such "ambiguous" attacks from Russia as cyber and information warfare and irregular militia, according to the report.
By contrast, in their joint warning on crisis management, the European and Russian ex-ministers argued for de-escalation and better communication between Nato and Moscow.
"Despite recent phone contact between senior Russian and Nato military officials, there are also currently few, if any, effective exchanges of information on military deployments in the Euro-Atlantic region. EU-Russia crisis management arrangements also do not exist," they said.
To avoid an unplanned clash, the former ministers urged: "Political leaders on all sides should review their military rules of engagement and ensure clear guidance in favour of restraint is passed through the military chain of command."
The report singles out Igor Strelkov as a man whose ambiguous relation to the Russian state was symptomatic of a new asymmetric threat. The former member of the FSB, the Russian security service, whose real name is Igor Girkin, fought in Transnistria, Serbia and Chechnya, and played a role in the annexation of Crimea.
"The uncertainty over his relationship to the downing of the Malaysian airliner on 17 July highlights the unpredictable threats posed by Russia's involvement in asymmetric operations of this kind," the Commons defence committee said.
Radical improvements are needed in Russian expertise within the British government, "allowing for real analysis and assessment of the Russian threat", it added. The Ministry of Defence, as a matter of urgency, must build up "its capacity to understand the nature of the current security threat from Russia and its motivations".
Nato's spokeswoman, Oana Lungescu, said that she had not seen the defence committee report but added: "Nato has already taken measures to reinforce collective defence, especially for our eastern allies, with more planes in the air, more ships at sea, and more exercises on the ground. All 28 allies are contributing, and the United Kingdom is playing an important role in policing Baltic airspace and planned exercises in Poland."
Rory Stewart, Conservative chair of the committee, said: "The risk of attack by Russia on a Nato member state, while still small, is significant … Nato has been too complacent about the threat from Russia, and it is not well-prepared."
He added: "Even worse, the nature of Russian tactics is changing fast – including cyber-attacks, information warfare, and the backing of irregular 'separatist groups', combining armed civilians with Russian special forces operating without insignia. We have already seen how these tactics have been deployed by Russia and its proxies in Ukraine to destabilise a Nato partner state, annex part of its territory, and paralyse its ability to respond
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A proxy war
Short of a negotiated peace with no casualties, this is the best of the bad options. The U.S. and Russia have already fought a string of proxy wars, the big ones being Vietnam to Afghanistan. In this scenario, the U.S. might finance Ukrainian forces to fight Russian soldiers, with the probable goal of driving them out of Ukrainian territory. Or, should the U.S. or NATO back the Ukrainian army, Russia might fund pro-Moscow separatist movements in Ukraine against it.
It will be a proxy war.
Jus' sayin'
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New developments in the proxy war, a Russian armored column has joined the Luhansk mercenaries. There is some military scandal in Ukraine over the fate of the 30th motorised brigade. Kiev is moving to a Swiss-Israeli style of defense and introducing 72 hour guerilla war courses. The Russians killed the American - Frankoh - fighting in the volunteer battalion. Simon Ostrovasky featured Frankoh in this Russian Roulette Dispatch:
http://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-66
The presence of Russian heavy armor could be a game changer. As many as 150 tanks have entered the fortress city of Luhansk which is without water or electricity. That is a battalion size formation. Tanks also need a lot of logistical support - gas and are very vulnerable to air attacks from the hinds.
We have not seen air to air combat between the Ukrainian and Russian air forces. Russia has a good air force and is bigger than Ukraine air. Air to air combat is a significant escalation.
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Ground based armour is vunerable to air attack-- hence the Russians have been pumping in large numbers of anti-air defences prior to sending this large column. The logistical support is interesting-- how do you think 280 odd semis floating around the area would be of use? Of course-throw in some confusion and all this equipment and men are suddenly in the thick of it.
I think air to air is less likely due to the general vunerability of aircraft here-- but--I would not like to see the large numbers of Russian attack helicopters in action here--it would shift the balance significently as the degree of sophistication is beyond Ukraine at this stage.
How anyone can see any of this as a "win-win" situation and not a Russian invasion(let alone what happened in the Crimea) -is beyond belief.
How some of those people could come and post here the dribble they have shows little comprehension of the situation-- and what is worse is the contempt shown for good Ukrainians being killed by russian scum.
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It's not only Ukrainians being killed by the Russian scum.
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Ground based armour is vunerable to air attack-- hence the Russians have been pumping in large numbers of anti-air defences prior to sending this large column. The logistical support is interesting-- how do you think 280 odd semis floating around the area would be of use? Of course-throw in some confusion and all this equipment and men are suddenly in the thick of it.
I think air to air is less likely due to the general vunerability of aircraft here-- but--I would not like to see the large numbers of Russian attack helicopters in action here--it would shift the balance significently as the degree of sophistication is beyond Ukraine at this stage.
How anyone can see any of this as a "win-win" situation and not a Russian invasion(let alone what happened in the Crimea) -is beyond belief.
How some of those people could come and post here the dribble they have shows little comprehension of the situation-- and what is worse is the contempt shown for good Ukrainians being killed by russian scum.
I think you have always been one-sided in your 'analysis' from afar. The win-win situation was something mentioned a while back, that I felt could have occurred if Ukraine leadership was negotiating...they have chosen to fight...which is their decision and fine. You have never really had very good comprehension so I understand your confusion.
Fathertime!
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I think you have always been one-sided in your 'analysis' from afar. The win-win situation was something mentioned a while back, that I felt could have occurred if Ukraine leadership was negotiating...they have chosen to fight...which is their decision and fine. You have never really had very good comprehension so I understand your confusion.
Fathertime!
It is very clear to everyone that you have very little idea whatsover-- you have insisted all along that russia had not invaded Ukraine--despite the obvious fact of it being obvious to near enough the whole world that they were russian troops on the Crimea( part of Ukrainian sovereign territory in case you missed that part-) More recently your unique assessment that it was not Russians invading eastern Ukraine you insist on offering some half baked ideas based on the very small exceptions to the general realities.
To top it off-- you slyly try to rewrite others positions and your own--by attempting to redefine what you actually said about a russian invasion-- you attempted to convince us that you said-- a full scale invasion-- something you in fact never said until trying to cover your earlier ridiculous comments.
Throw in your "win-win" scenario where you asserted it would be a "win" for Ukraine to be invaded by russia--really!!
I just got back from a month in the sin bin on the forum-- but if I was allowed to use the words I would to describe you and they would stay in thread-- I would happily take another month !!!
You are truly a disgusting individual with zero to contribute to the thread-- and to the specifics of the forum at large.Go read JonE's comments directed at you-- and do some think time fcs.
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BTW-- anyone else notice the time of that trolls posting? Curious for someone supposedly on US WestCoast.
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It is very clear to everyone that you have very little idea whatsover-- you have insisted all along that russia had not invaded Ukraine--despite the obvious fact of it being obvious to near enough the whole world that they were russian troops on the Crimea( part of Ukrainian sovereign territory in case you missed that part-) More recently your unique assessment that it was not Russians invading eastern Ukraine you insist on offering some half baked ideas based on the very small exceptions to the general realities.
To top it off-- you slyly try to rewrite others positions and your own--by attempting to redefine what you actually said about a russian invasion-- you attempted to convince us that you said-- a full scale invasion-- something you in fact never said until trying to cover your earlier ridiculous comments.
Throw in your "win-win" scenario where you asserted it would be a "win" for Ukraine to be invaded by russia--really!!
I just got back from a month in the sin bin on the forum-- but if I was allowed to use the words I would to describe you and they would stay in thread-- I would happily take another month !!!
You are truly a disgusting individual with zero to contribute to the thread-- and to the specifics of the forum at large.Go read JonE's comments directed at you-- and do some think time fcs.
I'm delighted to know that you have been stewing and thinking about me and the positions I've taken regarding Ukraine/Russia! I think it is jolly good that your first returning posts have been angry and towards me. Much of the one-sided commentary you were promoting has not come to pass, which is not surprising. I think I'm supposed to be concerned that you think I'm a troll, but it doesn't bother me. I just figure you are angry that you have been so wrong, and don't know how to direct your anger.
Fathertime!
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I think you have always been one-sided in your 'analysis' from afar. The win-win situation was something mentioned a while back, that I felt could have occurred if Ukraine leadership was negotiating...they have chosen to fight...which is their decision and fine. You have never really had very good comprehension so I understand your confusion.
Fathertime!
Let me try to explain it to you this way. For example, you have a nice 10 acre estate. I have the adjacent 100 acres. I move my fence over to onto your property for four acres and you now have 6 acres. You're a passive chap and rather than moving my fence off of your property you just let the fence remain hoping to keep the peace in the neighborhood.
The next day I catch your teenager trotting down the driveway. You know, the one that never listens to you and has rebelled ever since you didn't buy him the new iPhone 5 because his flip phone Star Tac works perfectly fine and you can't afford a new iPhone. I promise FT Junior a brand new iPhone if he'll invite me home into "his" house. He happily accepts the idea and invites me right in. I tell him if Big Daddy FT objects, we'll beat him with this bag of hammers I have right here. Just for good measure, I give Junior a bag of hammers too.
Junior and I walk into your house. I have a seat in the living room, Junior and I help ourselves to your liquor cabinet. You, alerted by the noise of clinking glass come out to see what's going on. I inform you that you no longer have any domain over this living room. Junior and I have taken it over. If you don't like it, we'll pound you to smithereens with these bags of hammers. Do you wish to negotiate how much of the living room Junior and I can have or do you want us out of your house?
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Faux Pas, that sums it up nicely. The part that you forgot to add is that everybody knows that while getting settled into the living room, the neighbour is also measuring the bedroom for new drapes and is deciding where the new stove will go in the kitchen renovation, claiming innocently that such plans mean nothing...
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Let me try to explain it to you this way. For example, you have a nice 10 acre estate. I have the adjacent 100 acres. I move my fence over to onto your property for four acres and you now have 6 acres. You're a passive chap and rather than moving my fence off of your property you just let the fence remain hoping to keep the peace in the neighborhood.
The next day I catch your teenager trotting down the driveway. You know, the one that never listens to you and has rebelled ever since you didn't buy him the new iPhone 5 because his flip phone Star Tac works perfectly fine and you can't afford a new iPhone. I promise FT Junior a brand new iPhone if he'll invite me home into "his" house. He happily accepts the idea and invites me right in. I tell him if Big Daddy FT objects, we'll beat him with this bag of hammers I have right here. Just for good measure, I give Junior a bag of hammers too.
Junior and I walk into your house. I have a seat in the living room, Junior and I help ourselves to your liquor cabinet. You, alerted by the noise of clinking glass come out to see what's going on. I inform you that you no longer have any domain over this living room. Junior and I have taken it over. If you don't like it, we'll pound you to smithereens with these bags of hammers. Do you wish to negotiate how much of the living room Junior and I can have or do you want us out of your house?
That is an interesting way to look at it....a big question is what is Ukraine going to do about it? They are free to fight of course as it seems they are doing...the consequence being that their citizenry are dying....and it may wind up being a never ending low level fight. I felt the federation was a better potential solution if done right, but what is done is done now.
Fathertime!
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That is an interesting way to look at it....a big question is what is Ukraine going to do about it? They are free to fight of course as it seems they are doing...the consequence being that their citizenry are dying....and it may wind up being a never ending low level fight. I felt the federation was a better potential solution if done right, but what is done is done now.
Nah, don't let FP pull a fast one over you like that...
That 4 acres just happens to be deeded to the 100 acre dude. That 4-acre was called, "The Autonomous Republic of 4 Acres". It decided to become *part of* the 100 acre dude. So Ft and junior just need to deal with that reality despite what their silly US/EU neighbor's narratives were.
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That is an interesting way to look at it....a big question is what is Ukraine going to do about it? They are free to fight of course as it seems they are doing...the consequence being that their citizenry are dying....and it may wind up being a never ending low level fight. I felt the federation was a better potential solution if done right, but what is done is done now.
Fathertime!
Well in most respects I'm just a dumb country boy but, it's obvious to me that Ukraine is pushing back. Big Daddy FT has given me orders to put down his liquor, gather those bags of hammers and get the hell out of his house. A pushing match with slaps has ensued. How that confrontation ends is yet to be determined.
Nah, don't let FP pull a fast one over you like that...
That 4 acres just happens to be deeded to the 100 acre dude. That 4-acre was called, "The Autonomous Republic of 4 Acres". It decided to become *part of* the 100 acre dude. So Ft and junior just need to deal with that reality despite what their silly US/EU neighbor's narratives were.
Nah, not really. That deed has belonged rightfully and lawfully to Big Daddy FT for over 20 years. It was awarded to Big Daddy by me as long as I could still keep the milk from his cows and, he treated those cows like I told him. Yeah it did decide to become part of the 100 acres in a vote, sho'nuff. Kind'a like a bear, wolf and sheep voting on whats for dinner.
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...Nah, not really. That deed has belonged rightfully and lawfully to Big Daddy FT for over 20 years. It was awarded to Big Daddy by me as long as I could still keep the milk from his cows and, he treated those cows like I told him. Yeah it did decide to become part of the 100 acres in a vote, sho'nuff. Kind'a like a bear, wolf and sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Oh, no, no, no...not so fast there Big T...Grandpa Nikita gifted Mr. 4 acres to 6 while and during the union of these soviet states, comrade. So when the BIG decision came around...little peeps from 4 acres decided that since the unions aren't unions anymore, then the deal is off, and I mean O-F. Especially since '6' wants to 'ho herself to those western pimps...
...and so we watch Mr. 100 acres welcoming 4 acres exactly where they belong, my man...
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Oh, no, no, no...not so fast there Big T...Grandpa Nikita gifted Mr. 4 acres to 6 while and during the union of these soviet states, comrade. So when the BIG decision came around...little peeps from 4 acres decided that since the unions aren't unions anymore, then the deal is off, and I mean O-F. Especially since '6' wants to 'ho herself to those western pimps...
...and so we watch Mr. 100 acres welcoming 4 acres exactly where they belong, my man...
Gifted? Really? No matter, you do recognize then that Crimea was part of a sovereign Ukraine. Lawfully, legally and rightfully. Actually it was more like the cow analogy. Here's you a free cow. Feed it groom it keep it healthy and give me all the milk from it. Then Uncle Indian giver Vlad sees another snatching on the udders and decides he want's the cow back.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcOH-934DSM&list=UUs0C0GsnSVFLS9fB1jHxM7g
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Gifted? Really? No matter, you do recognize then that Crimea was part of a sovereign Ukraine. Lawfully, legally and rightfully. Actually it was more like the cow analogy. Here's you a free cow. Feed it groom it keep it healthy and give me all the milk from it. Then Uncle Indian giver Vlad sees another snatching on the udders and decides he want's the cow back.
Part of Ukraine? You mean as in being an autonomous state that was located within the state of Ukraine, right? It still retains the right to choose its own dominion, which I know you would have to agree. Well, guess what, it did, and it just so happen 'it' chose to be under Russia's dominion...unless of course you're saying being an autonomous state Crimea cannot do that, which we would then have to agree that to be erroneous. Why? Because it is *a fact* Crimea is and was the *Autonomous Republic of Crimea*.
Now if you're speaking during the Soviet Union days, then it was part of a, well, a union. Its either nor, neither or...
Now if you're talking history, then let's lump in North America maybe even the Falkland Islands and many more out there, FP.
Bottom line here FP, it's mid-August now...all they had to do was wait until February 2015 and elect a new president they deemed to be the proper dude to lead the country anew. Ukraine didn't, so everything else is what it is...Folks can bitch about it, but just as the native Americans, or the native Australians and so many other *natives* out there can attest...it is what it is.
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Part of Ukraine? You mean as in being an autonomous state that was located within the state of Ukraine, right? It still retains the right to choose its own dominion, which I know you would have to agree. Well, guess what, it did, and it just so happen 'it' chose to be under Russia's dominion...unless of course you're saying being an autonomous state Crimea cannot do that, which we would then have to agree that to be erroneous. Why? Because it is *a fact* Crimea is and was the *Autonomous Republic of Crimea*.
Yes it was an autonomous state. Where did I state that it wasn't? It was an autonomous state within the sovereign nation of Ukraine. They voted to be under and join the dominion of Russia, at the barrel of a gun. I'm in Crimea, wake up one morning seeing tanks outside my door and a Russian soldier with an AK sticking the muzzle in my nose insisting I go check a ballot that lists me one choice, allow Russia to cornhole me rather than Ukraine, guess what? I'm checking the box. It's a no brainer. Seriously GQ, do you honestly believe that the Russian speaking folks in Crimea were in danger and needed Vlad to save them?
Now if you're speaking during the Soviet Union days, then it was part of a, well, a union. Its either nor, neither or...
non sequitur, irrelevant
Now if you're talking history, then let's lump in North America maybe even the Falkland Islands and many more out there, FP.
Bottom line here FP, it's mid-August now...all they had to do was wait until February 2015 and elect a new president they deemed to be the proper dude to lead the country anew. Ukraine didn't, so everything else is what it is...Folks can bitch about it, but just as the native Americans, or the native Australians and so many other *natives* out there can attest...it is what it is.
Two completely separate issues. Russia false flag invaded Crimea and took it. Now they are false flag invading Ukraine proper and currently getting bitch slapped at a tremendous cost to Ukraine. Why you remain in denial about this is beyond me. Because "you" believe Ukraine removed an elected dictator illegally, that Russia has all rights to rape, rob and pillage is asinine. Russia is not Ukraine. Obama's administration has broken the law and defiled the Constitution but guess what, they are still passing laws that are get this "legal".
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Lol. I'm not denying anything. You say you knew Crimea is an autonomous state but keep on dismissing the fact of their choice of dominion in your arguments...if anyone is in denial, it is you.
Now if you would like to believe the folks in crimea was *under the gun* to exact their choice then surprise me with your take on how come it's been months since the referendum and the area hadn't been completely vacated of its population. There had been folks going in and out of the place and I know you won't be able to convince anyone it's a deserted place these days FP.
It is what it is, man. Crimea voted to be under Russian dominion and like I've already said, just deal with it.
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I think you have always been one-sided in your 'analysis' from afar. The win-win situation was something mentioned a while back
Fathertime!
No--it was something you said-all your own work.
Perhaps you can explain to this man and his family what "win" is in this for him and them?
Ukraine’s Heroes: A father of two loses arm in Russia's war against Ukraine
Kateryna Hordiychuk, a young woman in her 30s, sits down on a neatly made bed in the hospital room to tell her husband’s war story while he is out for a cigarette. The room is full of light, freshly repaired and looks more like home with a new modern refrigerator, a microwave stove and some fruits in the vase on the table. There are six beds in the room, but only two are occupied by Gordichuk and her husband Serhiy.
Serhiy Hordiychuk, 35, from Volyn Oblast was mobilized in mid-March for 10-day military training, but had to undergo urgent stomach surgery and stayed in military hospital for treatment. After the rehabilitation the man was sent to country’s east and then injured in a fight on Aug. 4.
“He spent a couple of weeks in the East and got an arm injury, so here we are,” his wife says casually as the door opens and Serhiy Hordiychuk comes in.
The soldier’s arm was amputated in early August, his forearm is still covered in bloody bandages and a dozen tubes are attached to the fresh wound.
“I used to work on constructions in Moscow, no longer will,” says Serhiy Hordiychuk. He came back from Russia only some few days before he was taken away from home for a military training and then to war. “Sounds like a joke,” the man smiles.
But it is not. The war was as real as it gets.
Serhiy Hordiychuk’s infantry brigade was taking part in the military sweep of the territory between two villages in Donetsk Oblast when the brigade fell into a trap and was shelled by Grad rockets.
“The Grad was fired from the Russian territory and then terrorists on the Ukrainian side joined the attack,” he says.
Hordiychuk was wounded by rocket shrapnel and evacuated just ten minutes later when the attack was repulsed.
“We were taken to the first aid unit, but when we were attempted to be moved to a hospital the helicopter was shelled again,” the soldier says. It took some seven hours to take the injured militants to the hospital in Dnipropetrovsk. And such a delay appeared to be critical.
“It was hot and after seven hours in such heat the tissue began to die,” the man says sadly and looks at his wound.
Both Serhiy and Kateryna Hordiychuk ensure the doctors in both Dnipropetrovsk and Kyiv hospitals did everything they could to save his arm. “But trying to save my arm longer would mean risking my life, and I am grateful they made the right decision,” the soldier says.
His wife, a nurse, agrees: “When I came and saw his arm it was already black, so I knew there are no chances,” she says.
It is yet hard to say how long the rehabilitation will take, so no plans for the future can be made.
The couple has two children - 13-year-old daughter Valentyna and 6-year-old son Sasha. “We are not telling them anything yet, just that dad is sick, though I am sure the daughter understands,” the man sighs.
Hordiychuk says he is not a hero, as he did not plan to go to war. And even when he was at the military training he did not think he would actually end up in the war zone.
“But thanks to the stomach disease it turns out that I volunteered, another joke of life,” he says with a sad laugh
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraines-heroes-a-father-of-two-loses-arm-in-russias-war-against-ukraine-361421.html
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No--it was something you said-all your own work.
Perhaps you can explain to this man and his family what "win" is in this for him and them?
Haha, Jayh, the yahoo king once again with poor reading comprehension skills! Wars are going to produce casualties, EVERYBODY (but you) knows this, a question becomes how many, and what is the end result. As I mentioned earlier, there was only a possibility of both sides benefiting (in the end), if that doesn't come to pass then that is how it goes, regardless there was always going to be casualties, it is only somebody feeble brained that would think otherwise. It is funny you have been hanging on to this anger for all these months, too bad! …I've made my statements regarding the war, and I have no reason not to stand by them, even if the end result doesn't produce a win for both countries.
Fathertime!
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Lol. I'm not denying anything. You say you knew Crimea is an autonomous state but keep on dismissing the fact of their choice of dominion in your arguments...if anyone is in denial, it is you.
Now if you would like to believe the folks in crimea was *under the gun* to exact their choice then surprise me with your take on how come it's been months since the referendum and the area hadn't been completely vacated of its population. There had been folks going in and out of the place and I know you won't be able to convince anyone it's a deserted place these days FP.
It is what it is, man. Crimea voted to be under Russian dominion and like I've already said, just deal with it.
Then perhaps we're both in denial. Crimea got bum rushed by the Russian military to hold an election in two weeks to join guess which country? That's right, Russia. They turned from Port duty to occupational forces. Funny how being an autonomous region they didn't vote to secede from Ukraine and become an independent nation. They voted to join Mother Russia who already happen to have 20K troops there on the street and just so happen to have another 20K en route from Moscow to insure a fair election, huh? Let it not be said that Ole Vlad isn't a humanitarian in the truest of sense....LOL
It is what it is. That is where I suppose we'll agree. Apparently as for the rest we never will
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Haha, Jayh, the yahoo king once again with poor reading comprehension skills! Wars are going to produce casualties, EVERYBODY (but you) knows this, a question becomes how many, and what is the end result. As I mentioned earlier, there was only a possibility of both sides benefiting (in the end), if that doesn't come to pass then that is how it goes, regardless there was always going to be casualties, it is only somebody feeble brained that would think otherwise. It is funny you have been hanging on to this anger for all these months, too bad! …I've made my statements regarding the war, and I have no reason not to stand by them, even if the end result doesn't produce a win for both countries.
Fathertime!
The typical inaccuracy of not only your conclusions but a direct repeated assertion-- yahoo-- can you show me where have ever used it? It highlights how you have not bothered to ever read the material posted-- and a point I made to mods here-- whole articles do need to be posted so cretins like you can read them--even if not capable of understanding them.
While I am at it-- another insensitive git who thinks his sources are better than anyone else's-- previously said where he was getting his info-- so it was hardly a surprise that he is so deluded.The problem for him--and you-- is that your narrow view is not wide enough for you to get an understanding.
Your reply highlights your callous disregard and respect for human life.The point was made to you by several people( and to others who come here to argue theoretical semantics while the world burns-in this case Ukraine) that this is a real life tragedy unfolding in Ukraine-- and many people have wives,family and extended family and friends whose lives are at risk as I write. This is real--not some theory.
Mothers have had hair turn grey overnight as their 19 yo sons go off to war. Fathers of young families are being maimed and killed -- and you-- you smugly never know when to shut up.
Today--I am in a smaller Ukrainian city-- where the funerals of 6 men killed in the east were held yesterday and today- these men and all those fighting for Ukraine's future are real life heroes and the respect for those serving is incredible to see.
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It highlights how you have not bothered to ever read the material posted-- and a point I made to mods here-- whole articles do need to be posted so cretins like you can read them--even if not capable of understanding them.
Your point is moot. The surest way to insure somebody reads your articles is to post a link to said article. They will read it if they are interested. Posting the entire article in a post on a thread is a near guarantee that they will be annoyed and scroll past it. If you were not so thick, you would have the capability of grasping that simple concept. You can't force anyone to read your posts but, you can insure you an eternal place in time out if that is your desire with your challenging of the Mods or posting your incessant articles.
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The typical inaccuracy of not only your conclusions but a direct repeated assertion-- yahoo-- can you show me where have ever used it? It highlights how you have not bothered to ever read the material posted-- and a point I made to mods here-- whole articles do need to be posted so cretins like you can read them--even if not capable of understanding them.
While I am at it-- another insensitive git who thinks his sources are better than anyone else's-- previously said where he was getting his info-- so it was hardly a surprise that he is so deluded.The problem for him--and you-- is that your narrow view is not wide enough for you to get an understanding.
Your reply highlights your callous disregard and respect for human life.The point was made to you by several people( and to others who come here to argue theoretical semantics while the world burns-in this case Ukraine) that this is a real life tragedy unfolding in Ukraine-- and many people have wives,family and extended family and friends whose lives are at risk as I write. This is real--not some theory.
Mothers have had hair turn grey overnight as their 19 yo sons go off to war. Fathers of young families are being maimed and killed -- and you-- you smugly never know when to shut up.
Today--I am in a smaller Ukrainian city-- where the funerals of 6 men killed in the east were held yesterday and today- these men and all those fighting for Ukraine's future are real life heroes and the respect for those serving is incredible to see.
Angry name calling again, clearly a sign you (or yahoo) haven’t anything important to say! You have become so mired in your own viewpoint that you have failed to ever see there has always been another side to the story. Whether you agree with that side or not, it remains present and there is at least some validity to it. You can argue with mods all you want, and can continue to demonize everything Russian, but not everybody is going to agree with all aspects of your filth so you should probably get used to it. While you continue to shed your ever-flowing crocodile tears, it is YOU that rummages around the cities attempting to ingratiate yourself with the remaining local ladies through your maudlin crying spells. This is a forum and there will be differing viewpoints, and if you can’t handle that, it is just too bad…the opinions are not going away, nor should they.
Fathertime!
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Whether you agree with that side or not, it remains present and there is at least some validity to it. . . . This is a forum and there will be differing viewpoints, and if you can’t handle that, it is just too bad…the opinions are not going away, nor should they.
Fathertime!
Not all opinions have validity even you concede that.
Also this forum doesn't exist so you can make fun of others you disagree with.
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Not all opinions have validity even you concede that.
Also this forum doesn't exist so you can make fun of others you disagree with.
Psst. Look up passive-aggressiveness.
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Talking about heroes, atop Stalin's tower in Moscow. Boy, the world is full of surprises.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/UAflag_zps98bee032.jpg)
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Not all opinions have validity even you concede that.
Also this forum doesn't exist so you can make fun of others you disagree with.
I don't disagree with either statement, and never have.
Psst. Look up passive-aggressiveness.
You are an expert in the area of passive-aggressiveness, as evidenced by the preponderance of your posts....
Fathertime!
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On Aug. 10, Mykola's platoon was ambushed in Donetsk. He was hit by a terrorist sniper while trying to save a comrade. The donations had been insufficient to buy medical packs designed to stop bleeding. They were and still are in short supply. He had just texted her: "Leading a platoon. Will talk later. Love you."
By the time she responded that she missed him, she was writing to a dead husband.
Her grief is that of tens of thousands of young wives and women whose men are fighting Putin's proxies for the ideals the West says it holds dear, even though the West remains ineffective in stopping him.
Her grief is that of all freedom-loving Ukrainians whose Western friends chatter but choose not to engage. It's the pain of everyone watching Russia's nasty hand -- creating problems, then capitalizing in many of the world's hot spots with little or no consequence.
Why is Russia's criminality tolerated? Why is the West bent on appeasing a global terrorist?
Put Russia on the list of terror-exporting states along with Syria and Iran. (Is it still unclear that Russia is fanning hatred, war and grief there?)
Follow examples of countries that already exclude Russia from international events. Don't mince words: he is evil.
Mykola and Tanya spoke often of the West's chronic lack of knowledge and understanding of Russia manifested by the fact that despite centuries of heinous crimes against humanity -- under the czars, Bolsheviks, communism and now this, it pays cowering homage instead of a rightful scorn and punishment.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/ukrainian-love-story-comes-to-an-end-271958411.html
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Then perhaps we're both in denial....
No. Not really. Just you. I don't subscribe to mainstream narrative as you seem to be doing. Had I have then I would've likely, like everyone else seem to have done, demonize the likes of officer Wilson before any judicial process kicked in, or more appropriate to the event being discussed - presentation of evidences used to demonize an opponent.
...Crimea got bum rushed by the Russian military to hold an election in two weeks to join guess which country? That's right, Russia. They turned from Port duty to occupational forces. Funny how being an autonomous region they didn't vote to secede from Ukraine and become an independent nation. They voted to join Mother Russia who already happen to have 20K troops there on the street and just so happen to have another 20K en route from Moscow to insure a fair election, huh? Let it not be said that Ole Vlad isn't a humanitarian in the truest of sense....LOL
Hhhmm, let me take a shot at it then FP...Had there been a huge population of ethnic-Polish living in Crimea, and Crimea being strategically important to Poland, and Poland having lease right agreement for Crimea, and other than Ukraine - the closest nation will be Poland...do you think maybe these reasons my have something to do to sway towards Poland? What do you honestly think, FP?
I wish the very best for Ukraine whatever and wherever this mess takes the country to. Over 2,000 deaths, nearly half-a-million displaced citizens, the loss of an autonomous region, heavy damages in its infrastructure, etc...things that are completely unnecessary and largely could have been prevented - should've been prevented. All of that was the trade Ukriane made for a few more months until next election.
*WE* should have never meddled in Ukraine and played a major role in inciting this conflict. Look at the mess we got into in Syria re: ISIS. I bet you now Washington wishes we can partner with the Syrian government to fight the very same terrorist WE armed...pathetic if you ask me, but I know you won't.
But choices were made by all parties involved, so yes...it is what it is.
...It is what it is. That is where I suppose we'll agree. Apparently as for the rest we never will..
Sounds good to me.
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No. Not really. Just you. I don't subscribe to mainstream narrative as you seem to be doing. Had I have then I would've likely, like everyone else seem to have done, demonize the likes of officer Wilson before any judicial process kicked in, or more appropriate to the event being discussed - presentation of evidences used to demonize an opponent.
Red herring and irrelevant. You would hope I subscribed to the mainstream narrative because I don't subscribe to yours? Often the simplest explanation is overlooked but, some folks feel they are too intelligent for that. It must be complicated. It must be a conspiracy with a man behind the curtain. After all it is a complicated world. Nah, I don't need Yahoo, Fox News or CNN to tell me what to think. I do a better job of that than they do.
Hhhmm, let me take a shot at it then FP...Had there been a huge population of ethnic-Polish living in Crimea, and Crimea being strategically important to Poland, and Poland having lease right agreement for Crimea, and other than Ukraine - the closest nation will be Poland...do you think maybe these reasons my have something to do to sway towards Poland? What do you honestly think, FP?
Put as much lipstick and rouge on that pig as you wish, it ain't helping. Crimea was the sovereign lands of Ukraine. Not Poland, not Russia and neither has rights under international law to annex it. It doesn't matter that the president was removed, legally or illegally. Ukraine did not break the lease rights with Russia. There was no reason for Russia to annex other than, Ukraine pissed Putin off by crawling out from under his boot.
I wish the very best for Ukraine whatever and wherever this mess takes the country to. Over 2,000 deaths, nearly half-a-million displaced citizens, the loss of an autonomous region, heavy damages in its infrastructure, etc...things that are completely unnecessary and largely could have been prevented - should've been prevented. All of that was the trade Ukraine made for a few more months until next election.
You mean another Crimea like election? I'm sure that appease Ukrainians every where. Afterall, Maiden was completely a manufactured conflict by Washington, eh?
*WE* should have never meddled in Ukraine and played a major role in inciting this conflict. Look at the mess we got into in Syria re: ISIS. I bet you now Washington wishes we can partner with the Syrian government to fight the very same terrorist WE armed...pathetic if you ask me, but I know you won't.
But choices were made by all parties involved, so yes...it is what it is.
More red herring GQ. The discussion is Crimea/Ukraine/Russia but, no. And I am pretty sure you know, I do not think we should be meddling anywhere in the world for other nations governance. Yes, there humanitarian exceptions but, I hold strong Libertarian political views. I never believed we should have armed any of the Arab groups with the exception of the Kurds while Saddam was still in power.
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Red herring and irrelevant. You would hope I subscribed to the mainstream narrative because I don't subscribe to yours?......I never believed we should have armed any of the Arab groups with the exception of the Kurds while Saddam was still in power.
LMAO! What else can you see in the mirror behind you, FP? ;)
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LMAO! What else can you see in the mirror behind you, FP? ;)
Monday morning quarterbacking has always been one of my strongest suits. I've noticed it is one of yours, too. ;D
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Monday morning quarterbacking has always been one of my strongest suits. I've noticed it is one of yours, too. ;D
Yeah...however my team always win. Hah-ha! :P
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjDbHbRiGRQ
men are fighting Putin's proxies for the ideals the West says it holds dear, even though the West remains ineffective in stopping him.
1. Not everyone in the West holds these ideals dear.
2. The West is ineffective at stopping Putin.
3. Contrast the ineffectiveness of the west to the accusations of the pro-Putin Westerners who accuse the west of intervention, regime change and waging proxy wars.
Her grief is that of all freedom-loving Ukrainians whose Western friends chatter but choose not to engage. It's the pain of everyone watching Russia's nasty hand -- creating problems, then capitalizing in many of the world's hot spots with little or no consequence.
Why is Russia's criminality tolerated? Why is the West bent on appeasing a global terrorist?
I think we all know the answer to this.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02895/Gerhard-Schroeder-_2895460b.jpg)
Put Russia on the list of terror-exporting states along with Syria and Iran. (Is it still unclear that Russia is fanning hatred, war and grief there?)
Is it unclear?
Follow examples of countries that already exclude Russia from international events. Don't mince words: he is evil.
Is there anyone even among his defenders who refute this?
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I wish the very best for Ukraine whatever and wherever this mess takes the country to. Over 2,000 deaths, nearly half-a-million displaced citizens, the loss of an autonomous region, heavy damages in its infrastructure, etc...things that are completely unnecessary and largely could have been prevented - should've been prevented. All of that was the trade Ukriane made for a few more months until next election.
Really? Just 'few more months until next election' and everything would have been .... Oh, wait. What do you believe would have happened if everyone waited 'few more months until next election'?
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:welcome: Good to see you back again, missAmeno! How is your brother, and has his unit been involved in the latest fighting?
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Thank you, Anotherkiwi
He is back now, will be in hospital for another week before returning home, in one piece and no major injuries (at least that is what my mum telling to me, I had no chance to speak with him yet, all I know he is already in 3rd hospital and mum has a habit of telling me as little as she could get away with to 'don't worry' me).
All I know so far, vehicle in which he and several other soldiers broke out from the encirclement in ATO zone have been hit. He was one from the part of 72nd brigade who broke out from the encirclement, others in another part are the ones who had to retreat to Russia. Russian media used it for BS claims that part of 72nd brigade fled into territory of Russia to seek asylum. While in reality 72nd brigade for 4 months have been holding front-line, for over a week have been held in encirclement and shelled by Russian "Grad", artillery, tanks and mortars.
http://www.newsru.ua/ukraine/04aug2014/ottesnili.html
http://zik.ua/ua/news/2014/07/22/pid_marynivkoyu_biytsi_79oi_ta_72oi_brygad_v_otochenni_tankiv_boyovykiv_507977
http://ukrain.bazaza.net/208868/
http://kriminal.ictv.ua/ua/index/view-media/id/65583
Family saying tho he is still in hospital but already planning how to return to front-line.
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Really? Just 'few more months until next election' and everything would have been .... Oh, wait. What do you believe would have happened if everyone waited 'few more months until next election'?
In all truth, that would have been good ol' American "wishful thinking." Unfortunately, it was in Ukraine.
I think people here in the west are so sheltered that it is impossible to relate to a dog taking a daily beating. One day, the dog will bite back.
Just leave it to the win-win wishful thinkers to refute this. Except they would NEVER walk in their shoes.
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Thank you, Anotherkiwi
He is back now, will be in hospital for another week before returning home, in one piece and no major injuries (at least that is what my mum telling to me, I had no chance to speak with him yet, all I know he is already in 3rd hospital and mum has a habit of telling me as little as she could get away with to 'don't worry' me).
All I know so far, vehicle in which he and several other soldiers broke out from the encirclement in ATO zone have been hit. He was one from the part of 72nd brigade who broke out from the encirclement, others in another part are the ones who had to retreat to Russia. Russian media used it for BS claims that part of 72nd brigade fled into territory of Russia to seek asylum. While in reality 72nd brigade for 4 months have been holding front-line, for over a week have been held in encirclement and shelled by Russian "Grad", artillery, tanks and mortars.
http://www.newsru.ua/ukraine/04aug2014/ottesnili.html (http://www.newsru.ua/ukraine/04aug2014/ottesnili.html)
http://zik.ua/ua/news/2014/07/22/pid_marynivkoyu_biytsi_79oi_ta_72oi_brygad_v_otochenni_tankiv_boyovykiv_507977 (http://zik.ua/ua/news/2014/07/22/pid_marynivkoyu_biytsi_79oi_ta_72oi_brygad_v_otochenni_tankiv_boyovykiv_507977)
http://ukrain.bazaza.net/208868/ (http://ukrain.bazaza.net/208868/)
http://kriminal.ictv.ua/ua/index/view-media/id/65583 (http://kriminal.ictv.ua/ua/index/view-media/id/65583)
Family saying tho he is still in hospital but already planning how to return to front-line.
Nonsense. That's all propaganda. ;D
Good to see you back MissA and thank god your brother is safe. :blowkiss:
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Thank you, Muzh.
So, over 100 russian lorries accompanied by 76th Division of russian airborne troops intruded into Ukraine. What the bets for this weekend: straightforward invasion or they will bother to stage show 'Ukrainians attacked our humanitarian convoy' so we are sending peacekeepers to shoot them all down?
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Really? Just 'few more months until next election' and everything would have been .... Oh, wait. What do you believe would have happened if everyone waited 'few more months until next election'?
Saved all lives that's been lost. Preserved all infrastructures that's been damaged. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians would not have been displaced.
MissA, I am saddened these things are happening in Ukraine but you certainly cannot tell me Ukraine's fate all these times are caused by external forces other than its own. Sorry, ain't buying it.
All Ukraine is doing now is handing over the puppet strings from one puppet master to another. Same old, same old...
Ukraine's military consist of the country's force AND *armed groups and irregular army*. While the military is faced having to 'draft' soldiers, many of which doesn't really want to go, the armed groups and irregular army have no problem finding *volunteers*. Notice anything wrong with this? Volunteers is the kosher word for *mercenaries*, and by whom?
Why is Ukraine allowing *renegade militants*, many of which ARE *paid* foreign militants, kill its citizens if they really want to change face? Read OSCE's daily reports. This is the Ukraine YOU like?
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I echo Muzh's thoughts. Miss A we are glad to see you back and wish your brother a speedy recovery.
**********
For those watching the news: We are now seeing Russia's end game strategy. Permanent peace keeping force augmented by a show of strength. The Little Green Men are back. Paratroopers and heavy war machinery in Ukraine today - undisguised.
Western powers and NATO have not formulated a response yet. I guess they just didn't see it coming!
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Saved all lives that's been lost. Preserved all infrastructures that's been damaged. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians would not have been displaced.
GQB, you do not know how many lives would have been lost, what would have happened to infrastructure and how many people would have been displaced if Yanukovych stayed in power and pawned even more of Ukraine to Russia. It was not about Yanukovych himself, it was about what he was doing to the country and people were not prepare to allow him to do that.
Ukrainians have long enough history with Russia to know what they do not want in their lives once again.
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All I'm saying is, no blood need not be shed if Ukraine wanted change. Honest change. All that has been happening in Ukraine since this entire silliness began is Ukrainians are the ones dying and suffering (with respect to the passengers of MH17).
I understand Yanu is as corrupt as they come and he needed to be held accountable for his actions but the maidan was a force of reason until someone decided to change course and started shooting protestors and police alike, and no, it wasn't Yanukovich either. If Ukraine doesn't believe it is important enough to really *investigate* that crime, what has Ukraine really *change* when all of these is said and done?
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I echo Muzh's thoughts. Miss A we are glad to see you back and wish your brother a speedy recovery.
Hear, hear!
For those watching the news: We are now seeing Russia's end game strategy. Permanent peace keeping force augmented by a show of strength. The Little Green Men are back. Paratroopers and heavy war machinery in Ukraine today - undisguised.
Western powers and NATO have not formulated a response yet. I guess they just didn't see it coming!
The West surely saw it as a high probability outcome because everyone knows Putin will not accept defeat. However, what is the West to do? Deployment of NATO forces to Ukraine is unacceptable to the West. It suggests there will be more sanctions against Russia, further isolating Russia.
In 5-10 years time, Ukraine will be like Georgia, perhaps even advertising on American TV "Travel to Ukraine." What we don't know is whether Donetsk and Lugansk will be part of Ukraine. If they become independent, they will have the same underachieving fate as Northern Cyprus experienced in comparison with Cyprus. They will be another odd child of an isolated Russia.
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In 5-10 years time, Ukraine will be like Georgia, perhaps even advertising on American TV "Travel to Ukraine."
Careful...what you are saying here sounds a little like a WIN...that might make some people's undershorts get knotted up!
Fathertime!
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All I'm saying is, no blood need not be shed if Ukraine wanted change. Honest change. All that has been happening in Ukraine since this entire silliness began is Ukrainians are the ones dying and suffering (with respect to the passengers of MH17).
I totally disagree. Honest change was not going to happen because the country was not in charge of itself. It had to detach itself from the cancer that was preventing honest change and that takes blood. You should know that by know. How ironic that Putin provided the venue for Ukraine to detach itself.
I told my wife about 14 years ago something like this was bound to happen. She kept saying that they were peaceful people and that I didn't understand.
History books are full of pages of bloodshed because situations like this. What's that Shadow calls it? Ah yes, civil war. So guess, who didn't understand? It's funny because now she is the one who has no "peaceful" sentiments right now. It is very difficult to explain to her why, for example, the US is NOT going to send troops nor the EU. All I know is that she hates the Nigr right now for being such a pansy.
Oh, one more thing. Don't expect utopia once they finalize becoming a "nation" as it was meant to be. There is the process of weeding out the vermin from their holes and that will take time. Think about it, almost 50 years after "the shot heard around the world" was fired and the US was still battling their "brothers."
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The West surely saw it as a high probability outcome because everyone knows Putin will not accept defeat. However, what is the West to do? Deployment of NATO forces to Ukraine is unacceptable to the West. It suggests there will be more sanctions against Russia, further isolating Russia.
Did you read the essay I posted yesterday by this scholar in Russian studies? I highly recommend it.
In 5-10 years time, Ukraine will be like Georgia, perhaps even advertising on American TV "Travel to Ukraine." What we don't know is whether Donetsk and Lugansk will be part of Ukraine. If they become independent, they will have the same underachieving fate as Northern Cyprus experienced in comparison with Cyprus. They will be another odd child of an isolated Russia.
Nothing like that is going to happen. Have faith.
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Careful...what you are saying here sounds a little like a WIN...that might make some people's undershorts get knotted up!
Fathertime!
One liners inferring nonsense? LMFAO
Ever heard "Do as I say, not as I do?" Like your shoe size is....
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History books are full of pages of bloodshed because situations like this. What's that Shadow calls it? Ah yes, civil war. So guess, who didn't understand? It's funny because now she is the one who has no "peaceful" sentiments right now. It is very difficult to explain to her why, for example, the US is NOT going to send troops nor the EU. All I know is that she hates the Nigr right now for being such a pansy.
Even if you disagree, is there any important reason you have to continue to call the president such a racist name? You continue to exemplify what it is to have little respect (for yourself) first. Your 'analysis' seems to pass through the lens of racism, which makes it rather invalid on most topics.
Fathertime!
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I totally disagree. Honest change was not going to happen because the country was not in charge of itself. It had to detach itself from the cancer that was preventing honest change and that takes blood. You should know that by know. How ironic that Putin provided the venue for Ukraine to detach itself.
I told my wife about 14 years ago something like this was bound to happen. She kept saying that they were peaceful people and that I didn't understand.
History books are full of pages of bloodshed because situations like this. What's that Shadow calls it? Ah yes, civil war. So guess, who didn't understand? It's funny because now she is the one who has no "peaceful" sentiments right now. It is very difficult to explain to her why, for example, the US is NOT going to send troops nor the EU. All I know is that she hates the Nigr right now for being such a pansy.
Oh, one more thing. Don't expect utopia once they finalize becoming a "nation" as it was meant to be. There is the process of weeding out the vermin from their holes and that will take time. Think about it, almost 50 years after "the shot heard around the world" was fired and the US was still battling their "brothers."
I disagree.
Change happens from within, not from outside. Ukraine will be greatly amiss to believe their woes are directly created by Russia.
The very fact Kiev had the masses believe Yanu ordered the sniper attack is a testament not much had changed in Ukraine, and no, Russia has nothing to do with that type of mentality.
The very fact Kiev was the one who bombed innocent folks in Luhansk's State Administration building (and instead attempted to blame it on the rebels knowing full well they did it), and Ukrainians didn't even bat an eye with that deception, tells me not much had change in Ukraine.
OSCE reported yesterday that notable folks are being detained and held captive by the irregular army. After being released, monitors who try to interview those folks wouldn't reveal anything in their experiences and instead decides to leave either the city or the country altogether instead, tells me nothing has change in Ukraine. No, Russia has nothing to do with that.
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I disagree.
Change happens from within, not from outside. Ukraine will be greatly amiss to believe their woes are directly created by Russia.
The very fact Kiev had the masses believe Yanu ordered the sniper attack is a testament not much had changed in Ukraine, and no, Russia has nothing to do with that type of mentality.
The very fact Kiev was the one who bombed innocent folks in Luhansk's State Administration building (and instead attempted to blame it on the rebels knowing full well they did it), and Ukrainians didn't even bat an eye with that deception, tells me not much had change in Ukraine.
OSCE reported yesterday that notable folks are being detained and held captive by the irregular army. After being released, monitors who try to interview those folks wouldn't reveal anything in their experiences and instead decides to leave either the city or the country altogether instead, tells me nothing has change in Ukraine. No, Russia has nothing to do with that.
Yo Cool Dude.
Respect your opinion even when I disagree with you 95%.
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One liners inferring nonsense? LMFAO
Ever heard "Do as I say, not as I do?" Like your shoe size is....
I sometimes mirror responses to the individual posters...in your case 'inferring nonsense' is a perfect reflection.
Fathertime!
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Did you read the essay I posted yesterday by this scholar in Russian studies? I highly recommend it.
I read the article by Judy Dempsey titled "Russia is Losing Germany." Good article, the substance of which was the letter sent by three German ministers to the parliament. My thoughts are consistent with her thesis, namely Putin is shooting himself Russia in the foot.
Nothing like that is going to happen. Have faith.
Ukraine can not stop Russia if Putin is prepared to go "all in." Only a megalomaniac would go "all in" and suffer the economic harm of having limited access to international market. So you are suggesting that Putin will be reasonable? I hope you are correct.
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Change happens from within, not from outside. Ukraine will be greatly amiss to believe their woes are directly created by Russia.
I agree with that. Ukraine's biggest problem IMO has been the corruption, something Ukrainians fostered and something that only Ukainians can correct.
Nevertheless, Russia has a heavy hand in destabilizing Ukraine when a stable Ukraine is needed to make the changes.
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I read the article by Judy Dempsey titled "Russia is Losing Germany." Good article, the substance of which was the letter sent by three German ministers to the parliament. My thoughts are consistent with her thesis, namely Putin is shooting himself Russia in the foot.
No, this (http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/personalization-and-patriotism/) one.
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Yo Cool Dude.
Respect your opinion even when I disagree with you 95%.
Oh good! I'm cool with that, too...
For a minute I thought you were going to tell me I was wrong. :P ;)
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Ukraine can not stop Russia if Putin is prepared to go "all in." Only a megalomaniac would go "all in" and suffer the economic harm of having limited access to international market. So you are suggesting that Putin will be reasonable? I hope you are correct.
Didn't they say the same about the Vietnamese and the Afghans?
It is going to cost Russia so much they may end up losing half their territory.
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Ukraine's military consist of the country's force AND *armed groups and irregular army*. While the military is faced having to 'draft' soldiers, many of which doesn't really want to go, the armed groups and irregular army have no problem finding *volunteers*. Notice anything wrong with this? Volunteers is the kosher word for *mercenaries*, and by whom?
How did you came to such conclusion? As I know for sure your conclusions are incorrect.
My brother received 'recall', ended up in 72nd brigade. Later family discovered that whole 72nd brigade was formed out from volunteers. When questioned on subject my brother laughs and denies he volunteered but family is now has no doubts he put his name on the list by himself and within few days received 'recall'.
72nd brigade is not unique, there many many brigades that partially or completely made out of volunteers.
You are correct that there are some that have been called for and do not wish to go, no one forced them (at least I haven't seen yet in news or heard from family/friends about any cases where actions were taken against those who refused to go)
As about opposition armed groups, initially they had many Ukrainians (some paid and some volunteers). With time many realized those armed groups are nothing more than bunch of bandits and these days those groups mainly consist those who paid for participation, russian volunteers and russian military.
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MissA-
First off, I'm glad your brother is alive and hope he'll recover soon...
Kolomoisky had amassed bought at least a 20,000 army of *volunteers*. I'm am not incorrect on this. If Kiev's new government want to start anew and promote transparency and order, how can they allow this?
I can't even imagine any western democratic country today would allow a band of hired mercenaries, foreign and domestic, hired by a private citizen, to run around its borders killing its citizens with the approval of its government.
...The head of the police in Starobilsk (100 km north of Luhansk) informed the SMM of new abduction cases linked to the “Aidar” battalion. The interlocutor explained that the main problem facing police officers during investigations into these abductions, is that the victims mostly do not wish to press charges against the perpetrators, or give any information regarding the location of their detention. Instead of involving the police, victims chose to leave the village or even the country.
The SMM met IDPs fleeing Luhansk at the Shchastya checkpoint (25 km to the north). Most of those interviewed by the SMM were not able to confirm the presence of Ukrainian forces in the centre of Luhansk city, as reported by some media sources on 19 August. One interlocutor told the SMM that different irregular armed groups are fighting for control of the city.
In Donetsk the SMM recorded frequent explosions consistent with shelling on various parts of the city’s outskirts. For the past two days the city has been without water supply, reportedly due to mortar attacks. Electrical pumps for the water mains are located in the city’s outskirts, at the heart of the fighting, thus making repairs difficult.
In Dnipropetrovsk the SMM met with representatives of the NGO “Helsinki Human Rights Union”, partly funded by the Helsinki Foundation for Human Rights. Most of the cases the NGO is dealing with are related to the situation in the east, in particular concerning military officers investigated for their decisions on the battlefield, the rights of the dead, and the status of families of the fallen. The interlocutors informed the SMM of a case regarding an army commander who is detained and being prosecuted for his decisions on the battlefield. The absence of a definition related to the current military situation in the criminal code and the fact that martial law has not yet been declared, according to the NGO representatives, complicates judicial proceedings, as there are no clear legal indications on which law should be applied concerning conduct on the battlefield....
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122908
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I can't even imagine any western democratic country today would allow a band of hired mercenaries, foreign and domestic, hired by a private citizen, to run around its borders killing its citizens with the approval of its government.
As far as we know that hasn't happened yet. But what do we really know? For example, we never knew about the failed attempt to rescue James Foley who was just beheaded. This was an operation that required around 50-100 American troops and happened a couple years ago. The White House is angry that information was leaked out now. The point being, we (the American people) don't know much about what the hell our armed forces are out there doing. Clearly if Americans have been, or are involved in Ukraine, we would be the last ones to find out.
Fathertime!
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Pertaining to the conflict in Ukraine?
I already know there're Americans involved in this conflict. For one, there was that interview with an American, who eventually died, that fought in this conflict. I also know we have, at least that had been reported, military advisers in the field.
Actual governmental combatants, at this time, who knows? But I won't be surprised if that is the case.
What is also absurd in these things, much had been made about Russia amassing troops in its borders, but yet, there had been an increased deployment of both troops, weaponry and equipment all throughout the NATO bordering countries at the same time and somehow that's OK. LOL.
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MissA-
First off, I'm glad your brother is alive and hope he'll recover soon...
Thank you
Kolomoisky had amassed bought at least a 20,000 army of *volunteers*. I'm am not incorrect on this. If Kiev's new government want to start anew and promote transparency and order, how can they allow this?
I can't even imagine any western democratic country today would allow a band of hired mercenaries, foreign and domestic, hired by a private citizen, to run around its borders killing its citizens with the approval of its government.
Can you please provide any evidence, proof, links, anything whatsoever to:
- Kolomoisky's army being at least 20, 000
- Structure of Kolomoisky's army
- Purpose of Kolomoisky's army
- Funding of Kolomoisky's army
- Actions of Kolomoisky's army
- Connection of Kolomoisky's army and 'running around borders killing citizens with the approval of its government.'
I will answer to each point you provide at least any kind of supporting evidence. General statement you made earlier in exact form as you made is nothing else than fairytale for net experts.
As for quote from OSCE let me know exactly which phrase/paragraph/sentence you believe have anything to do with exchange we had because right now I am under impression you are seeing something in that report that is not there.
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...Can you please provide any evidence, proof, links, anything whatsoever to:
- Kolomoisky's army being at least 20, 000
- Structure of Kolomoisky's army
- Purpose of Kolomoisky's army
- Funding of Kolomoisky's army
- Actions of Kolomoisky's army
- Connection of Kolomoisky's army and 'running around borders killing citizens with the approval of its government.'
I will answer to each point you provide at least any kind of supporting evidence. General statement you made earlier in exact form as you made is nothing else than fairytale for net experts....
http://forward.com/articles/198812/jewish-oligarch-spends-millions-on-militia-to-hold/ (http://forward.com/articles/198812/jewish-oligarch-spends-millions-on-militia-to-hold/)
...Igor Bereza, a commander in Kolomoisky’s National Defense Force, said the force now has nearly 15,000 people, including some 2,000 combat-ready troops organized in four battalions.
http://carolinaundersiege.wordpress.com/tag/ihor-kolomoisky/ (http://carolinaundersiege.wordpress.com/tag/ihor-kolomoisky/)
...Kolomoisky’s forces, comprising Ukrainian regular military personnel; neo-Nazi units from west Ukraine, and foreign mercenaries, including Georgians, Romanians, and white supremacists from Sweden and Germany; and ex-Israel Defense Force Blue Helmet commandos, are mainly separated into four battalions: the Azov Battalion; the Aidar Battalion, the Donbass Battalion; and the 2,000-strong Dniepr-1 (or Dnipro-1) Battalion, which was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9. Dnipro-1 also maintains a 20,000-member reserve force....
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/foreigners-join-far-right-militias-in-ukraine-s-fight-against-rebels-1.1868779 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/foreigners-join-far-right-militias-in-ukraine-s-fight-against-rebels-1.1868779)
...They are members of the Azov Battalion, one of several units of volunteers fighting alongside Ukraine’s military and national guard against separatist rebels – allegedly backed by Moscow – who want the country’s eastern regions to join Russia ...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky)
...In a rare interview, Mr. Kolomoisky declined to say how much he is spending personally to build up what his aides call the "Kolomoisky army," but experts estimate it is about $10 million a month just to fund the salaries of militia and police units, some of whom technically report to Ukraine's army and interior ministry. His province now has close to 2,000 battle-ready troops in the field, his aides say. By comparison, Ukraine's army had only 6,000 through the entire country when Russia took control of the Crimean peninsula earlier this year....
http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665 (http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665)
He even boldly offers *bounties* for every captured rebels, their weapons, etc...
....Igor Kolomoisky, an energy tycoon who was appointed governor of the Dnipropetrovsk region in eastern Ukraine (http://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) last month, also offered rewards for handing in weapons belonging to insurgents: $1,000 for each machine gun turned in to the authorities, $1,500 for every heavy machine gun and $2,000 for a grenade launcher....
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky)
If you have the time (I don't) , in OSCE's Daily report (link previously provided) had already confirmed the presence of these *irregular armies/armed groups* fighting alongside Ukraine's military in more than multiple mention.
So, again, if the NEW Kiev government is starting anew and is trying to promote transparency and order, why would it allow paid foreign/domestic mercenaries to kill Ukrainians?
...As for quote from OSCE let me know exactly which phrase/paragraph/sentence you believe have anything to do with exchange we had because right now I am under impression you are seeing something in that report that is not there.
All of it. See above re: OSCE...
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Pertaining to the conflict in Ukraine?
I already know there're Americans involved in this conflict. For one, there was that interview with an American, who eventually died, that fought in this conflict. I also know we have, at least that had been reported, military advisers in the field.
Actual governmental combatants, at this time, who knows? But I won't be surprised if that is the case.
What is also absurd in these things, much had been made about Russia amassing troops in its borders, but yet, there had been an increased deployment of both troops, weaponry and equipment all throughout the NATO bordering countries at the same time and somehow that's OK. LOL.
Easy man. The American was from Ukrainian descent and he got Ukrainian citizenship before he went to fight.
Also, I'd like you to provide evidence of NATO involvement in this.
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Oh BTW, Cool Dude.
Check this (http://www.interpretermag.com/category/blog/) one out.
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Easy man. The American was from Ukrainian descent and he got Ukrainian citizenship before he went to fight...
But that doesn't negate the fact he is/was American. I also posted a retired US military Special-Ops training soldiers in Ukraine on this board before.
http://sofrep.com/33637/ukraine-american-spec-ops-veteran-on-the-ground-speaks/ (http://sofrep.com/33637/ukraine-american-spec-ops-veteran-on-the-ground-speaks/)
...Also, I'd like you to provide evidence of NATO involvement in this.
I didn't say NATO IS involved in this. I said:
>>What is also absurd in these things, much had been made about Russia amassing troops in its borders, but yet, there had been an increased deployment of both troops, weaponry and equipment all throughout the NATO bordering countries at the same time and somehow that's OK.<<
NATO had been increasing it's troop deployment in bordering NATO countries in the region since April. It had already dispatched nuclear B2 stealth bomber to the UK and Germany a little over a month ago *because of* this conflict. But yeppers, within that context - NATO or the US have NO business doing what they're doing in that region. So to say Russia is amassing troops in its borders is being highly hypocritical.
An additional 12 F-16 fighters likely already arrived in Turkey this week. So much for de-escalation.
These reports are easily searchable. Like this, for instance...
http://theaviationist.com/2014/06/08/b-2-have-deployed-uk/ (http://theaviationist.com/2014/06/08/b-2-have-deployed-uk/)
This ain't our fcoking war.
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This ain't our fcoking war.
That's a negatory.
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Oh BTW, Cool Dude.
Check this (http://www.interpretermag.com/category/blog/) one out.
Check what out? 286 freaking trucks that had been sitting at the border for days for humanitarian purposes?
LMAO! It doesn't take THAT long to inspect 286 trucks, man. WTF! ICRC had been there and they couldn't find anything other than food, water and medicine. Why delay the deliveries?
Dude, Costco's main warehouse in Mira Loma, CA dispatches upwards of 800 fully loaded delivery semis is less than 6 hours. Long Beach offshore inspectors, on one port, can check over 1,000 containers in less than one day.
Now, if Kiev believes this somehow benefits the separatists, too...so big freaking deal! They're getting supplied, albeit many of them are being sold in the internet by some good folks in Ukraine, with the same by the US. LOL.
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There were pics of the loads.
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http://forward.com/articles/198812/jewish-oligarch-spends-millions-on-militia-to-hold/
...Igor Bereza, a commander in Kolomoisky’s National Defense Force, said the force now has nearly 15,000 people, including some 2,000 combat-ready troops organized in four battalions.
First thing, not Igor Bereza but Yuri Bereza
He is commander of Battalion "Dnepr-1" and as well Chief of Headquarters of the national defense of Dnipropetrovsk region.
In March after the beginning of the Crimean crisis was re-established National Guard of Ukraine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine
National Guard was created partially on the basis of the Internal Troops of Ukraine and consisted militia as well as armed wings, volunteers are also have been accepted (and that is how my brother ended up in it) and heavily reliant on reserve units.
Due to events on the territory of the neighboring Donetsk and Luhansk, in April in Dnipropetrovsk have been formed National Defense of Dnipropetrovsk region. They are not some kind of irregular forces, such units created in most regions of Ukraine and similar in the way 72nd brigade was created in my hometown which my brother joined, all these units are part of National Guard and reserve units.
15,000 man aged between 19 and 50 came and voluntarily placed their name on Dnipropetrovsk reserve list and ready if called for to go defend their country. What is bad in that, GQB? They are simple citizens: husbands, brothers and sons, they are ready to fight for their country and all what it shows not how bad is Kolomoisky but that Ukrainians have no desire to be once again under Russian dictator.
Actually list already closer to 27,000, around 15,000 was in May.
Now 2,000 mentioned as combat-ready troops is now closer to 3,000 and those are 4 battalions: two battalions of special forces "Dnipro-1" and "Dnipro-2", and two battalions of territorial defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnipro_Battalion
All those 4 battalions are part of National Guard of Ukraine. The difference is Kolomoisky donates a lot of money to fed, dress and equip Dnipropetrovsk's battalions.
Do not get it wrong, Kolomoisky is far from angel, his donations are driven not just by poor patriotism but also by his business. Russia takes over Dnipropetrovsk he will loose way more than what he donates to Ukrainian army.
Ukrainians know that.
http://carolinaundersiege.wordpress.com/tag/ihor-kolomoisky/
...Kolomoisky’s forces, comprising Ukrainian regular military personnel; neo-Nazi units from west Ukraine, and foreign mercenaries, including Georgians, Romanians, and white supremacists from Sweden and Germany; and ex-Israel Defense Force Blue Helmet commandos, are mainly separated into four battalions: the Azov Battalion; the Aidar Battalion, the Donbass Battalion; and the 2,000-strong Dniepr-1 (or Dnipro-1) Battalion, which was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9. Dnipro-1 also maintains a 20,000-member reserve force....
Why do you even read such gibberish? Kolomoisky’s forces is nickname, all those battalions are units of the National Guard, operated by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine.
Yes, some individuals in those battalions are very much questionable and hold (in my opinion) way too extreme believes (but so are many members of this forum also :devil: in my opinion).
Could you provide any evidence that Dnipro-1 'was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9.'?
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/foreigners-join-far-right-militias-in-ukraine-s-fight-against-rebels-1.1868779
...They are members of the Azov Battalion, one of several units of volunteers fighting alongside Ukraine’s military and national guard against separatist rebels – allegedly backed by Moscow – who want the country’s eastern regions to join Russia ...
Purpose of The National Guard is maintaining public order, upholding the constitutional order and restoring the activity of state bodies, upholding Part 1 of Art. 109 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine as well as counterinsurgency.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky
...In a rare interview, Mr. Kolomoisky declined to say how much he is spending personally to build up what his aides call the "Kolomoisky army," but experts estimate it is about $10 million a month just to fund the salaries of militia and police units, some of whom technically report to Ukraine's army and interior ministry. His province now has close to 2,000 battle-ready troops in the field, his aides say. By comparison, Ukraine's army had only 6,000 through the entire country when Russia took control of the Crimean peninsula earlier this year....
I completely agree with Kolomoisky in calling Putin "a schizophrenic, short in stature". Actually assessment is very much spot on.
I can not understand what is wrong with donations someone does to support own country's army when sovereignty of that country is in danger. So he is rich and chooses to spent "several million dollars" on buying car batteries for military vehicles, clothing, food, it is donation after all. He is aware country doesn't have the money required to equip army, he is aware of state of Ukrainian army and it is not something any another Ukrainian is not aware of. He can help and chooses to help, is that really bad? Would other countries when their sovereignty is under threat refuse donations from its population to support army protecting their own country?
http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665
He even boldly offers *bounties* for every captured rebels, their weapons, etc...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky
What is wrong with offering bounty for handing in to authorities weapons belonging to insurgents? not to him but to appropriate authorities! What is wrong with offering reward for capturing those who trying to seize government buildings? What western countries do not offer rewards for helping to capture criminals?
Are you aware that most of those who have been seizing building and standing up on pro-russians demonstrations have been paid for? Blatantly open and without any shame using economic desperation of population. All what Kolomoisky did is offered way bigger money for the capture of any Russian saboteur than what Russian saboteurs have been offering for seizing ukrainian government buildings. And you know what that was a turning point in seizing government buildings. He didn't offer money for Ukrainian saboteurs, he didn't offer money for Russian-heritage-but-Ukrainian-citizen saboteurs, he offered money for Russian tourist-insurgents. Those who had no right in saying what should be destiny of Ukraine but thought they could come and do whatever they wish on Ukrainian land.
If you have the time (I don't) , in OSCE's Daily report (link previously provided) had already confirmed the presence of these *irregular armies/armed groups* fighting alongside Ukraine's military in more than multiple mention.
In the link you provided I do not see any confirmation by OSCE of presence of 'irregular armies'. If you can provide
exact quote I will answer.
So, again, if the NEW Kiev government is starting anew and is trying to promote transparency and order, why would it allow paid mercenaries to kill Ukrainians?
All of it. See above re: OSCE...
I am lost once again with such general statement. Who do you call 'paid mercenaries'?
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For a man who claims neutrality and indifference, he has an odd way of keeping score.
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Ukraine can not stop Russia if Putin is prepared to go "all in." Only a megalomaniac would go "all in" and suffer the economic harm of having limited access to international market.
Putin has decided to go all in but doing as little as possible. He hoped for the Ukrainians to destroy themselves in a civil war. Didn't happen so he sent Russian irregular army in and backed rebels. Not working as the rebels are losing so he'll be sending in his army in as much as necessary to complete his objective.
Obama and Europeans have made statements pertaining to every one of Putin's move. We've heard Putin's move's are "provocative" and "there will be consequences". As long as Putin continues to hear words and the only actions are limited sanctions, he will proceed. European leaders and the American President had choice words for Hitler's moves when he annexed Czechoslovakia and Austria but little was done to discourage Hitler from proceeding.
I don't think Putin is going to be stopped by sanctions. Of course he doesn't want the Russian economy hurt but sometimes war makes a nation stronger. Russia almost was defeated in WW2 and quickly became a superpower. America also became stronger. If a reason to fight gets his people to work harder and advance technology, Russia will benefit.
Obama is a president who is of little or wrong action when it comes to foreign policy. He doesn't show strong support of our friends and tries to befriend our adversaries. It's no surprise there are problems all over the world. Terrorists are trying to take control of Iraq and moving on Israel. We did little in Syria to stop growing problems and ISIS is operating out of there. We know how that turned out. Russia and China playing bullies on their neighbors. They better take what they can now before Obama leaves office. The next America president isn't going to let them get away with things as easily.
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Obama is a president who is of little or wrong action when it comes to foreign policy. He doesn't show strong support of our friends and tries to befriend our adversaries. It's no surprise there are problems all over the world.
This is an excellent couple of sentences that sums up how I feel, as well, about the US foreign policy. Well said, Billy.
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Putin has decided to go all in but doing as little as possible.
You can't go all in and do as little as possible. All In means committed. Commitment is antithetical to indifference.
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Ambassador McFaul outlined a strategy that the White House is mulling over:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/07/opinion/to-beat-putin-support-ukraine.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
Even if complete military victory is achievable, the Kiev government must realize that the benefits of some negotiation process with the local population outweigh the costs of ruling the region as occupiers. How it wins the war will determine how lasting the peace will be.
Perhaps it is time for Ukraine supporters in the West to think about what they want in the next US President, what should our Policy be against Putin and the region.
Direct US intervention might have averted this crisis during the little green men stage. But I do not think it is helpful now. The best thing the US can do is isolate Russia, sanction Russia and arm her enemies along the border and fund those activists inside the border working for peaceful change.
In the end, whether we fund the Russians or not, Russian pro-democracy activists will turn separatist. The peoples of Siberia, Kuban, the Islands off Japan, Kaliningrad, the Caucuses, Tartarstan and Karelia will stop feeding Moscow and perhaps the long night of Sovietism will be over.
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Ambassador McFaul outlined a strategy that the White House is mulling over:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/07/opinion/to-beat-putin-support-ukraine.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/07/opinion/to-beat-putin-support-ukraine.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0)
Perhaps it is time for Ukraine supporters in the West to think about what they want in the next US President, what should our Policy be against Putin and the region.
Direct US intervention might have averted this crisis during the little green men stage. But I do not think it is helpful now. The best thing the US can do is isolate Russia, sanction Russia and arm her enemies along the border and fund those activists inside the border working for peaceful change.
In the end, whether we fund the Russians or not, Russian pro-democracy activists will turn separatist. The peoples of Siberia, Kuban, the Islands off Japan, Kaliningrad, the Caucuses, Tartarstan and Karelia will stop feeding Moscow and perhaps the long night of Sovietism will be over.
You should consider writing stories... ;D
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First thing, not Igor Bereza but Yuri Bereza
He is commander of Battalion "Dnepr-1" and as well Chief of Headquarters of the national defense of Dnipropetrovsk region.
In March after the beginning of the Crimean crisis was re-established National Guard of Ukraine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine
National Guard was created partially on the basis of the Internal Troops of Ukraine and consisted militia as well as armed wings, volunteers are also have been accepted (and that is how my brother ended up in it) and heavily reliant on reserve units.
Due to events on the territory of the neighboring Donetsk and Luhansk, in April in Dnipropetrovsk have been formed National Defense of Dnipropetrovsk region. They are not some kind of irregular forces, such units created in most regions of Ukraine and similar in the way 72nd brigade was created in my hometown which my brother joined, all these units are part of National Guard and reserve units.
15,000 man aged between 19 and 50 came and voluntarily placed their name on Dnipropetrovsk reserve list and ready if called for to go defend their country. What is bad in that, GQB? They are simple citizens: husbands, brothers and sons, they are ready to fight for their country and all what it shows not how bad is Kolomoisky but that Ukrainians have no desire to be once again under Russian dictator.
Actually list already closer to 27,000, around 15,000 was in May.
Now 2,000 mentioned as combat-ready troops is now closer to 3,000 and those are 4 battalions: two battalions of special forces "Dnipro-1" and "Dnipro-2", and two battalions of territorial defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnipro_Battalion
All those 4 battalions are part of National Guard of Ukraine. The difference is Kolomoisky donates a lot of money to fed, dress and equip Dnipropetrovsk's battalions.
Do not get it wrong, Kolomoisky is far from angel, his donations are driven not just by poor patriotism but also by his business. Russia takes over Dnipropetrovsk he will loose way more than what he donates to Ukrainian army.
Ukrainians know that.
Why do you even read such gibberish? Kolomoisky’s forces is nickname, all those battalions are units of the National Guard, operated by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine.
Yes, some individuals in those battalions are very much questionable and hold (in my opinion) way too extreme believes (but so are many members of this forum also :devil: in my opinion).
Could you provide any evidence that Dnipro-1 'was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9.'?
Purpose of The National Guard is maintaining public order, upholding the constitutional order and restoring the activity of state bodies, upholding Part 1 of Art. 109 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine as well as counterinsurgency.
I completely agree with Kolomoisky in calling Putin "a schizophrenic, short in stature". Actually assessment is very much spot on.
I can not understand what is wrong with donations someone does to support own country's army when sovereignty of that country is in danger. So he is rich and chooses to spent "several million dollars" on buying car batteries for military vehicles, clothing, food, it is donation after all. He is aware country doesn't have the money required to equip army, he is aware of state of Ukrainian army and it is not something any another Ukrainian is not aware of. He can help and chooses to help, is that really bad? Would other countries when their sovereignty is under threat refuse donations from its population to support army protecting their own country?
What is wrong with offering bounty for handing in to authorities weapons belonging to insurgents? not to him but to appropriate authorities! What is wrong with offering reward for capturing those who trying to seize government buildings? What western countries do not offer rewards for helping to capture criminals?
Are you aware that most of those who have been seizing building and standing up on pro-russians demonstrations have been paid for? Blatantly open and without any shame using economic desperation of population. All what Kolomoisky did is offered way bigger money for the capture of any Russian saboteur than what Russian saboteurs have been offering for seizing ukrainian government buildings. And you know what that was a turning point in seizing government buildings. He didn't offer money for Ukrainian saboteurs, he didn't offer money for Russian-heritage-but-Ukrainian-citizen saboteurs, he offered money for Russian tourist-insurgents. Those who had no right in saying what should be destiny of Ukraine but thought they could come and do whatever they wish on Ukrainian land....
WOW! That's a whole lot of typing, MissA. You agree with me all along but you just wanted to make it seem as though you don't. I understand.
:P
...In the link you provided I do not see any confirmation by OSCE of presence of 'irregular armies'. If you can provide
exact quote I will answer....
It's daily report, MissA. I know you're a bit late in these discussions but they're (quotes) in there, I assure you.
...I am lost once again with such general statement. Who do you call 'paid mercenaries'?...
They're all in those links previously provided to you.
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You should consider writing stories... ;D
(http://cs618922.vk.me/v618922624/13c0e/yp8aHoA1_Ro.jpg)
http://www.free-karelia.org/eng/About.aspx
http://thediplomat.com/2014/08/kuril-islands-dispute-back-to-gridlock/
Russia is the old sick man of Europe
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Bavaria wants to get out of the German Federation.
Texas wants to leave the U.S.
The Flemish want to split up Belgium.
And so on...
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WOW! That's a whole lot of typing, MissA. You agree with me all along but you just wanted to make it seem as though you don't. I understand.
:P
Yeah, you wish ;)
It's daily report, MissA. I know you're a bit late in these discussions but they're (quotes) in there, I assure you.
They're all in those links previously provided to you.
I have seen daily reports and all links you posted, in there is nothing close to what you stated and that is why I asked to post exact quote you are struggling to understand in OSCE reports.
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Bavaria wants to get out of the German Federation.
Texas wants to leave the U.S.
The Flemish want to split up Belgium.
And so on...
I live in Texas and I think Obama is horrible President. But Obama doesn't jail or beat up his enemies. Why does Putin do it? Why do you defend it?
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You can't go all in and do as little as possible. All In means committed.
Putin is committed to achieving his goals in Ukraine. He can do as little as possible and still be committed. Just because he didn't send in his full Army from the beginning doesn't mean he's not all in. The reason he does a little as possible to achieve his goals is to minimize the damage to the Russian economy. If in the end, the rebels(guinea pigs) fail, I believe Putin will send in his Army to take some or all of the land in Ukraine.
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My objection was one of semantics.
A good commander when he wages war, does not dicker over costs. Yet you describe Putin and his commitment accurately. I don't think he is in control of the situation. Slaviansk proved the turning point to where he is losing control and there is nothing he can do to regain control. Everyone knows my views of Mr. Obama, yet I believe Mr. Obama will humiliate President Putin and he is a dead man walking. He cannot win in Ukraine even if he does what you describe as go ALL IN.
Crimea proves the most expensive piece of Real Estate for the President of Russia. It cost him his most valuable asset - the mask by which he can perpetrate his villainy.
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I live in Texas and I think Obama is horrible President. But Obama doesn't jail or beat up his enemies. Why does Putin do it? Why do you defend it?
Ferguson.
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http://gazeta.ua/articles/np/_odeskij-bataljon-storm-rozpoviv-pro-bij-z-desantnikami-z-pskova/577067
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A good commander when he wages war, does not dicker over costs.
The best commanders, civilian or military, do factor in costs pertaining to money, equipment and life. If he has to wait longer for the weather to be favorable, to get on higher ground, or let the propaganda or guinea pigs do it's work, he will wait. Putin is saving his soldiers lives and limiting damage to his economy by letting the guinea pigs do their work first. Even if it takes years to complete his objective, he's making smart moves.
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he's making smart moves.
We are talking about Putin right? Putin is no Uncle Ho. His economy is bleeding jobs. Crimea is an economic basket case and a full on invasion will separate him from his friends in Europe. He is also very vulnerable in Asia. The opposition at home grows. You see this guy as an evil genius but he is about to get dusted by our leading from up his behind Nobel Peace Prize winner of a President because his commitment to Ukraine is largely emotional. He has gained nothing but lost much including the pro-Russia ideas in Eastern and Central Ukraine
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We are talking about Putin right? Putin is no Uncle Ho. His economy is bleeding jobs. Crimea is an economic basket case and a full on invasion will separate him from his friends in Europe. He is also very vulnerable in Asia. The opposition at home grows. You see this guy as an evil genius but he is about to get dusted by our leading from up his behind Nobel Peace Prize winner of a President because his commitment to Ukraine is largely emotional. He has gained nothing but lost much including the pro-Russia ideas in Eastern and Central Ukraine
This is all wishful thinking on your end... i believe Billyb is right regarding the moves Putin has made.
Fathertime!
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i believe Billyb is right regarding the moves Putin has made.
Fathertime!
Where's the win win? Tell us this is not a Russian invasion.
Oh by the way Billy, Putin is going from a insurgency to terrorism. That is not progress. And to have any chance at terrorism, you need human assets in the target country. Those human assets though still substantial ain't what they use to be.
Vlad maybe a god to some, but to me, he is a dumbass
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Billyb is right regarding the moves Putin has made.
Fathertime!
Alibi
Why are you defending Putin? Just try and tell us that you are not
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Ferguson.
You don't know what you are talking about. 198 Dutch die because of Putin and you want to talk about Ferguson?
smh
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Alibi
Why are you defending Putin? Just try and tell us that you are not
Just shooting down some of your wishful silliness. I don't believe v. Putin will shortly be overthrown like you do.
Fathertime!
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Just shooting down some of your wishful silliness. I don't believe v. Putin will shortly be overthrown like you do.
Fathertime!
Why are you defending this man? What is it you admire? Why are you covering up for his crimes? Where's the win win?
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Why are you defending this man? What is it you admire? Why are you covering up for his crimes? Where's the win win?
I don't believe he will be removed from office like you insist he will be. I think you hope it will be the case so you write it here as if it is fact when it is actually pure angry conjecture on your part.
Fathertime!
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I don't believe he will be removed from office like you insist he will be. , , ,
noted
so why are you defending Putin?
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You don't know what you are talking about. 198 Dutch die because of Putin and you want to talk about Ferguson?
smh
They died because of a Dutch EU commisioner who claimed victory.
And war mongers like you.
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Putin is no Uncle Ho.
The American Army lost just over 58,000 soldiers. Ho Chi Mihn's north Vietnamese Army lost over 1,000,000 men. Ho Chi Mihn only won the Vietnam war because our politicians held our military back for years. The country is much smaller than Iraq and Afghanistan. Shouldn't have taken long to do the job. Ho Chi Mihn wasn't a great leader but he did benefit from an America at the time that didn't want to win and later didn't want to fight. Ho Chi Mihn was a poor strategist and got a lot of his men killed. Putin is smarter than uncle Ho.
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The stuff you mentioned is not irrelevant because you said it which is the de facto response of the Putin trolls. It is irrelevant because there is no path for victory for Putin. He knows it. You say this guy is smart. You list his accomplishments and you say commanders are accountants too. Yet the only bene out of this is Crimea and it is a tarbaby.
Jone? Anyone else? Putin smart or dumbass?
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It is irrelevant because there is no path for victory for Putin.
If Putin uses guns to settle differences and achieve goals and the West uses sanctions, who do you think will get their way in the end?
Like you, I don't like what Putin is doing but reality is the West isn't willing to go all in to stop him.
You list his accomplishments and you say commanders are accountants too. Yet the only bene out of this is Crimea and it is a tarbaby.
Putin got Crimea without losing a man. With Crimea and millions of people that live there, he also got ownership to a large part of the Black Sea that is storing over a trillion dollars worth of natural resources. More importantly that, on a personal level his popularity in Russia has skyrocketed. That's job security for life.
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If Putin uses guns to settle differences and achieve goals and the West uses sanctions, who do you think will get their way in the end?
You know and I know that military solutions at best are limited. Even if Putin is able to muster his Army and blitzkreig across Ukraine like it's 1939, he will have to contend with 45 million possible insurgents. This nation will resist. He will realistically have to start nuking cities like they do in the Polish scenarios that their Belo-russian exercises presume. Will the world tolerate the use to tactical nukes? That's the kind of stuff that got MacArthur fired and Ike almost voted out of office.
I agree with you the Western response has been at best weak. But this is Putin's problem - this is the problem of anyone in authority. Your authority is dependent on those you presumably lord over as anyone with teenagers can attest.
Like you, I don't like what Putin is doing but reality is the West isn't willing to go all in to stop him.
We could write long paragraphs of agreement on who castrated the Western response has been. But it doesn't matter, the Ukrainians are fighting and winning.
Putin got Crimea without losing a man. With Crimea and millions of people that live there, he also got ownership to a large part of the Black Sea that is storing over a trillion dollars worth of natural resources.
He can't hold it. The population is miserable. Even those that voted for this lunacy are finding out how Ukrainian they really are.
More importantly that, on a personal level his popularity in Russia has skyrocketed. That's job security for life.
those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.
Jone compared Putin to Hitler and concluded that he is not the guy. I agreed because Hitler was one helluva performance artist. Putin would have no future in Hollywood.
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Just shooting down some of your wishful silliness. I don't believe v. Putin will shortly be overthrown like you do.
Fathertime!
LMFAO
One liners with nothing to say.
Man, you are a peach.
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LMFAO
One liners with nothing to say.
Man, you are a peach.
I’ve said plenty regarding the Ukraine/Russia crisis and will continue to voice my opinions. I’m glad I remain in the forefront of your mind! I can already sense that you have toned down your posts in response. :) [size=78%] [/size][/size][size=78%]Maybe you can tell us more stories about how everybody ran when they saw you in elementary school again. [/size] :rolleyes: [/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Fathertime! [/size]
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I’ve said plenty regarding the Ukraine/Russia crisis and will continue to voice my opinions. I’m glad I remain in the forefront of your mind! I can already sense that you have toned down your posts in response. :) [size=78%]Maybe you can tell us more stories about how everybody ran when they saw you in elementary school again. [/size] :rolleyes: [size=78%] [/size]
[size=78%]Fathertime! [/size]
Please, can you give me your opinion on this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-will-meet-with-ukrainian-counterpart-in-high-stakes-summit-amid-tense-situation/2014/08/26/875db403-5b7b-4d89-8443-5aee1bde6345_story.html?wpisrc=al_national) win-win situation? If I remember correctly, you categorically stated that Russia will not invade Ukraine.
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Please, can you give me your opinion on this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-will-meet-with-ukrainian-counterpart-in-high-stakes-summit-amid-tense-situation/2014/08/26/875db403-5b7b-4d89-8443-5aee1bde6345_story.html?wpisrc=al_national) win-win situation? If I remember correctly, you categorically stated that Russia will not invade Ukraine.
You don't remember correctly. My belief was that AT THE TIME, Russia would not be invading with the massive troops at the border...because it was too obvious and they would have moved quicker if that was the plan... YOU are the one who as you said 'screamed from the rooftops' that Russia wouldn't invade Crimea...obviously you were mistaken.
I'd say what they are doing now is accomplishing their goals for now.
The two leaders met today, which means there is still the possibility of both nations gaining something in the end here, whether YOU like it or not.
Fathertime!
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(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/rainingshit.jpg)
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Muzh,
Regarding your post yesterday:
Here, again, is one who didn't come home:
http://m.riavrn.ru/society/news/v-voronezhskoy-oblasti-pokhoronili-komvzvoda-pskovskoy-divizii-/
Obviously, this is the same paratrooper unit that was caught in Lugansk and eaten up piecemeal.
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Another one that Lavarov has categorically disavowed.
Heh heh heh
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given how the terrorists have not been able to get support within ukraine sufficient enough with the local population to grow their ranks , it now seesm putin has decided to use his military to push his objectives along the coast to crimea
i have thought from the begining this was a logical strategic aim if i had of been putin
given the weak response by the EU/US/NATO , it now seesm more inevitable he will push for his land bridge to crimea /moldova
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ZzmRfkYBw
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I was wondering why the stock market had dropped today for no particular reason. The article I read stated that Russia is now considering seizing foreign assets, many of which are US owned. It seems obvious this would be in response to the sanctions.
Perhaps coincidentally I read elsewhere that Obama is considering loosening the sanctions if Russia cooperates with the latest peace proposal.
Fathertime!
Fathertime!
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I was wondering why the stock market had dropped today for no particular reason. The article I read stated that Russia is now considering seizing foreign assets, many of which are US owned. It seems obvious this would be in response to the sanctions.
Perhaps coincidentally I read elsewhere that Obama is considering loosening the sanctions if Russia cooperates with the latest peace proposal.
Fathertime!
Fathertime!
It is far more likely that the air campaign against ISIS has to do with this. Any major unrest in the Middle East often causes financial volatility. They just bombed oil refineries under the control of ISIS. There is talk of ISIS and other groups wanting to get "revenge" of some sort against the USA.
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I was wondering why the stock market had dropped today for no particular reason. The article I read stated that Russia is now considering seizing foreign assets, many of which are US owned. It seems obvious this would be in response to the sanctions.
Technical trading after hitting the Death Cross. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-death-cross-foretold-everything-2014-9
Russia had a role in getting to the Death Cross because the conflict in Ukraine and sanctions will slow further an an already slowing European economy.
There should be some good buys if this continues.
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Technical trading after hitting the Death Cross. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-death-cross-foretold-everything-2014-9 (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-death-cross-foretold-everything-2014-9)
Russia had a role in getting to the Death Cross because the conflict in Ukraine and sanctions will slow further an an already slowing European economy.
There should be some good buys if this continues.
I noticed about 8 different theories on why the market has been a little weird lately. It perked my interest when I read the one regarding Russia moving towards seizing american assets. I would not like to see that happen.
Yeah, if you have money sitting out maybe something will pop up....Myself I'd rather not see a large drop at all right now, as I can get stung by that.
Fathertime!
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Is Russian seizure of Foreign assets a justified response to sanctions?
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Is Russian seizure of Foreign assets a justified response to sanctions?
I would like to see it happen.
Nothing would harm Russia's future quite as much as the long run consequences for their seizure of assets owned by foreigners.
The cutback in FDI (foreign direct investment) in Russia would be tremendous and retard their growth of GNP much more than the current sanctions are doing.
So go for it a$$holes.
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Is Russian seizure of Foreign assets a justified response to sanctions?
According to Russia, the sanctions aren't justified because they never invaded Ukraine so they feel tit for tat economic warfare is fair game.
EU Rejects Putin Demand For Ukraine Deal Changes. Putin doesn't want the EU-Ukraine accord to be signed until 2016. I think Putin has changed course and wait to rig some elections instead of taking Ukraine by force right now.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/26/eu-putin-ukraine-deal_n_5888562.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
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I would like to see it happen.
Nothing would harm Russia's future quite as much as the long run consequences for their seizure of assets owned by foreigners.
The cutback in FDI (foreign direct investment) in Russia would be tremendous and retard their growth of GNP much more than the current sanctions are doing.
So go for it a$$holes.
You speak PRAVDA. I would say that Russia will come to its senses and not seize foreign assets, except I did not believe that Putin would ever do what he has done in Ukraine.
Do American companies, other than Big Oil, have large investments in Russia? Energy companies are still investing in Russia, although the sanctions make it difficult:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/business/international/for-western-oil-companies-expanding-in-russia-is-a-dance-around-sanctions.html?_r=0
Russia's incursion in Ukraine is hurting the Russian economy. For a quick summary of the obvious, without any analysis, this CNN report today covers the 16% YTD plunge of the ruble (the Euro has declined about 6% over the same period as the EU economy slackens. This will eventually affect the American economy if money supply is not stimulated (Europe is talking QE as in quantitative easing).
http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/26/investing/russia-ruble-fall/index.html?iid=HP_LN
Any rumors regarding Vladimir Evtushenkov, the next Mikhail Khodorkovsky? What did he do?
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As an aside; For anyone who's interested here's some biographic information on the new Secretary General of NATO, Jens Stoltenberg...
http://www.rferl.org/content/nato-profile-jens-stoltenberg/25313513.html
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/who_is_who_49999.htm
Brass
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According to Russia, the sanctions aren't justified because they never invaded Ukraine so they feel tit for tat economic warfare is fair game.
EU Rejects Putin Demand For Ukraine Deal Changes. Putin doesn't want the EU-Ukraine accord to be signed until 2016. I think Putin has changed course and wait to rig some elections instead of taking Ukraine by force right now.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/26/eu-putin-ukraine-deal_n_5888562.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
So is that a yes justified or no, not justified?
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As an aside; For anyone who's interested here's some biographic information on the new Secretary General of NATO, Jens Stoltenberg...
http://www.rferl.org/content/nato-profile-jens-stoltenberg/25313513.html
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/who_is_who_49999.htm
Brass
:applause:
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Any rumors regarding Vladimir Evtushenkov, the next Mikhail Khodorkovsky? What did he do?
Money laundering. Oligarchs in Russia usually get arrested for getting into politics. As long as they stay out, their safe. This is the first case an oligarch got arrested even though he didn't poke his head into politics. My guess is those guys have their phones tapped and Evtushenkov said something Putin didn't like.
So is that a yes justified or no, not justified?
I don't think Russia should seize Western companies doing business in their country over the sanctions applied as punishment for their involvement in Ukraine. What really got Russia going on this is Italy seizing the assets of one of Putin's friends. If Russia proceeds, I suspect they will be hurt for a very long time. It will take years before foreign investors trust Russia again who will be earning a reputation for stealing companies whenever they feel like.
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My friend. Igor Kravchuk, journalist and pro-democracy activist from Siberia, wrote about his son's life in the Army. If ever we get swallowed up in this slow motion Third World War, we will be facing men like Valentin. This is the life he knows:
Just look at the pictures - they speak for themselves
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More empty words from Team Obama on Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdEq57jzObk
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so , will russia kick off another round of major escalation this weekend while putin is here in australia ?
all signs are indicating he will , even the presence of his warship in the vicinity are asign he has fears for his safety when it goes off imo
he still really needs that land bridge to crimea and moldova
LETS ALL HOPE IT DOESNT HAPPEN
SX
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My friend. Igor Kravchuk, journalist and pro-democracy activist from Siberia, wrote about his son's life in the Army. If ever we get swallowed up in this slow motion Third World War, we will be facing men like Valentin. This is the life he knows:
(Russian)
Just look at the pictures - they speak for themselves
I think that I've changed my mind. Forget ISIS, we need to go to war against these fools and crush them while the crushing is good. Make a military pact with China and give them Siberia and the Far East, and we take the West. Throw in a few Nato allies like Germany and we can call the new country "The United States of America, Germany and China".
Putin says it's okay to break international borders and invade other countries? Let's give the SOB a real taste of that. :ROFL:
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He is what you describe
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Russia is our biggest enemy yanks say:
http://www.b92.net/mobilni/eng/index.php?nav_id=93199
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Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy is flying three X-47B demonstrators off its aircraft carriers. http://dronewarfare.wordpress.com/2014/10/05/the-vulnerability-of-unmanned-aerial-vehicles/
Hmm with drop tanks and the carriers out in the Med.. No need to go into the Black Bathtub.. :crackwhip:
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These are the right questions, Jay.
We used the Arab-Israeli wars to find out how our war material stacked up against the Soviets. Given that Ukraine is defending NATO, now would be a good time reviewing our weapons systems against theirs. In the book Charlie Wilson's War, the author pointed to a shadowy who determined it was the right weapons mix that brought down the Soviets - a similar weapons mix must be found given the complexity of this new kind of warfare.
That the weapons are lying there idle there is NO DOUBT. I used to work at the Sierra Army Depot - there are thousands of land based war material that Ukraine could use to invade and occupy Moscow.
The way to destroy the Buks and Air Defense Assets will require an Air War. Ukraine needs an air force that will gain air superiority and through a use of Electronic Warfare, Air to Air combat, drone and bombing targets starting with the ADA first. Building up good pilots and getting them great planes - takes time - years really. They need help now. . . .
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It seems the US has some interesting answers to earlier drone vulnerability.
The ultra-lethal drones of the future
The Future
After the retirement of the SR-71 Blackbird spy plane, the military had an obvious gap in its arsenal.
In 2007, satellite pictures emerged showing new construction at Area 51, the Pentagon’s top-secret testing area in the Nevada desert. Veteran watchers of “black,” or secret, aircraft, immediately suspected that the Pentagon was preparing to test a new secret aircraft, and the most likely candidate was a stealth drone.
k
Now, two unmanned spy drones are under development. One that appears almost ready for combat is the RQ-180, a stealthy spy drone built by Northrop Grumman. Though the Pentagon refuses to confirm its existence, Aviation Week & Space Technology ran this artist’s concept earlier this year and revealed a little about its rumored design.
The RQ-180 is designed to fly very high, for a very long time (perhaps as long as 24 hours). According to Aviation Week, it has a 130-foot wing span and a “cranked kite” stealthy design that would allow it to slip past enemy radar. Chances are it will only be used for surveillance, not attack, though it could carry out an electronic attack.
http://nypost.com/2014/05/17/evolution-of-the-drone/
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You need the right weapons mix Jay. There isn't one miracle weapon that will equalize or give a smaller force the advantage. You need a weapons mix. Also drones cannot operate very well in contested air environment. You need manned pilots and electronic warfare superiority.
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You need the right weapons mix Jay. There isn't one miracle weapon that will equalize or give a smaller force the advantage. You need a weapons mix. Also drones cannot operate very well in contested air environment. You need manned pilots and electronic warfare superiority.
Hence my questions.
What is required to neutralise Russian detection systems?
Given that the airspace being used is Ukrainian and that ground support logistical support can be quite close in flying time-- what would allow using drones to decimate Russian ground hardware without high risk of being attacked ?
It seems to me that effectively closing the border to prevent Russian reinforcements and supplies-and retreat! --is the most effective fast way to do this.
The only choice for Putin would be to escalate in a massive way-- so the west would need to prepare for that eventuality.
On my strategy list--give Putin a week to get out of Crimea-then repeat procedure!
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OK.
Good questions.
There are men with more extensive experience than me but I will chime in. I don't think the Russian president will stop raping Ukraine. He can leer at Moldova, Finland, Sweden, Poland and the Baltic's but these next 2 years and 2 years is all he has, to complete his conquest of Ukraine. He won't come close.
Ukraine unlike Afghanistan avails itself more for armored warfare. The Afghans use the tertian to isolate and mass troops against defending outposts and smaller units. See operation Redwings. The Mujahedeen (and the Taliban) don't need an air force. Ukraine needs an air force.
The air force has to be at a minimum they need to be well trained. NATO has good schools for dogfighting using Warsaw equipment. They need to be at those schools or graduates of those schools.
How to destroy the ADA threat? You need an EP-3. These aircraft jam frequencies emitted by the Buk, Strela and SAMs so they don't work. Then you fix their coordinates and bomb them.
Drones can help you see. So can HUMINT. Human assets reporting dispositions. That means money. Western intelligence agencies have a need to know. US has deep pockets but other countries should step up. US has to share NSA data.
The most important thing is to reform the Kiev Military Soviet.
They need tanks and repair facilities. Lots and lots of gas. Billy B thinks this can be done in a high sanctions environment. No. War us very expensive and wasteful. Its horrible. But there are worse things than war.
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The most important thing is to reform the Kiev Military Soviet.
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This is a topic in itself-- and the thread the idiot started is relevant to it.
The problem I see-- and have alluded to many times in comments--it is impossible to do everything at once. I mean politically--but the reorganisation of the military is a priority.But-- you cant stop a war and embark on a 5 year plan!
The integration of the volunteer battalions should be a prioity-but as you know-- there is considerable dissatisfaction with the leadership from Kiev.
The battalions have just formed a co-ordinating group to represent them- I think a good move as it combines the voices into a cohesive unit.Needless to say--the traditional military see these battalions as a bit of a loose cannon in the system. I see them as as patriots who have been prepared to fight for what they believe.
Right now--Ukraine cannot afford the luxury of infighting in any area-- only a dedicated determined defence can succeed.
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I agree with you on all that you have written in the previous post. And I especially agree with this:
I see them as as patriots who have been prepared to fight for what they believe.
And you are right. Rome was not built in a day. Ukraine is facing the same problem Israel did in 1948. But the Arabs didn't have an $ 88 B a year ( and shrinking) military to contend with. Yet Israel developed its own tactics and in many ways man for man was a better Army than the US Army in Korea to the present was in tactics, training and strategy.
We have no doubts about the Ukrainian spirit, but they need guns and training.
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I see them as as patriots who have been prepared to fight for what they believe.
What percentage of Ukrainian's are patriots who are prepared to fight and die for their country?
If the number were 10% then Putin and Russia would be facing 4.5 million Ukrainians ready to fight to the death to defend their homeland.
But it's not 10%. What is the figure? 2% or less?
I can assure you without a doubt that if the USA were under attack on our soil at least 10% of Americans would be ready to fight.
Think about it. It's very disappointing the West has moved so slow. It's also disappointing that many disco's in Ukraine are probably still packed with young men not prepared to defend their country.
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I can assure you without a doubt that if the USA were under attack on our soil at least 10% of Americans would be ready to fight.
LOL
How many Americans join the military and are veterans of the Iraq or Afghan wars?
Here's a hint, it's less than 1%
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LOL
How many Americans join the military and are veterans of the Iraq or Afghan wars?
Here's a hint, it's less than 1%
LOL why would you compare a war in a foreign country to a war on American soil?
(or did you not read what I wrote)
There are over 300 million legally registered weapons on US soil and there are at least
35 million living veterans who would take up arms to defend American soil, if need be.
Fortunately we would never need that many fighting persons to repel an invasion due to our
advanced weapons.
Which is why we need to train Ukrainians and give them some of those advanced weapons.
However I personally think it may be too late at this time.
Just like WWII large portions of territory were lost which later needed to be reclaimed in combat.
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LOL why would you compare a war in a foreign country to a war on American soil?
(or did you not read what I wrote)
There are over 300 million legally registered weapons on US soil and there are at least
35 million living veterans who would take up arms to defend American soil, if need be.
Fortunately we would never need that many fighting persons to repel an invasion due to our
advanced weapons.
Which is why we need to train Ukrainians and give them some of those advanced weapons.
However I personally think it may be too late at this time.
Just like WWII large portions of territory were lost which later needed to be reclaimed in combat.
You have been to Ukraine. How many have guns? Also would you agree that the political history of Ukraine and the US is a little different? Perhaps your comparison was unfair?
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Also would you agree that the political history of Ukraine and the US is a little different? Perhaps your comparison was unfair?
No, the comparison was fair, and a reasonable point to make.
Fathertime!
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You have been to Ukraine. How many have guns? Also would you agree that the political history of Ukraine and the US is a little different? Perhaps your comparison was unfair?
I hate to agree with fathertime, however I don't think that the comparison is unfair. People only truly appreciate freedom when they earn it themselves.
IMO there should be hundreds of thousands of civilian volunteers right now in Mariupol digging trenches and ditches to stop the tanks which are inevitably coming. There should be hundreds of thousands of volunteer snipers in all of the apartment buildings and other high-rise buildings.
If the Taliban can make IED's then so can the Ukrainians. Finland held back Russia with vastly fewer troops and Molotov cocktails.
I believe that many if not most volunteer soldiers come from W. Ukraine. I doubt if W. Ukraine will ever fall to Russia again.
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AC--there has been a considerable effort in Ukraine to people to allow the army to do the job they are trying to be equipped for.What is happening that virtually everyplace with a name has a local armed group in training-so literally thousands are in preparation.I hope they never have to fire a shot in anger.
The volunteers are from all over Ukraine.
There has been a considerable number of reports citizens in the east sniping at the invaders-and also in assisting the Ukrainian forces-- all at huge risk to themselves.
I will never subscribe to the suggestion that Ukrainians have not made--or are not making enough sacrifices to achieve their freedom.
Stories of individuals avoiding the draft are not unique to Ukraine-- but a few cases are highlighted to attempt to paint the picture that Ukrainians do not want to fight.
A little over a year ago-- posters here repeatedly said Ukrainians would not fight Russia or Russians- look at that now!
Give Ukraine the weapons to give them a real chance-- and then try and tell me they have no desire for their freedom.
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Give Ukraine the weapons to give them a real chance-- and then try and tell me they have no desire for their freedom.
I fear it's too late, however I agree with the statement that if Ukrainian's had been properly armed they would have defended their territory completely.
Other nations observing this will want to keep Nuclear weapons or get them, in order to defend against unchecked aggression.
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IMO there should be hundreds of thousands of civilian volunteers right now in Mariupol digging trenches and ditches to stop the tanks which are inevitably coming. There should be hundreds of thousands of volunteer snipers in all of the apartment buildings and other high-rise buildings.
BULLSEYE with that one! I must say it is a curiosity why these sort of things haven't happened...although Jayh will come up with some goofy excuse.
Fathertime!
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I fear it's too late, however I agree with the statement that if Ukrainian's had been properly armed they would have defended their territory completely.
Other nations observing this will want to keep Nuclear weapons or get them, in order to defend against unchecked aggression.
I thought last week was depressing-but now the news of huge build up in Mariupol area is really bad news. It also seems that Kharkiv is on target list-- at least sufficiently enough to stop Ukrainian forces being concentrated in Mariupol area.
Only Russia is likely to proliferate nuclear weapons-- and only oil money can bail Russian economy out.
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I hate to agree with fathertime, however I don't think that the comparison is unfair. People only truly appreciate freedom when they earn it themselves.
IMO there should be hundreds of thousands of civilian volunteers right now in Mariupol digging trenches and ditches to stop the tanks which are inevitably coming. There should be hundreds of thousands of volunteer snipers in all of the apartment buildings and other high-rise buildings.
If the Taliban can make IED's then so can the Ukrainians. Finland held back Russia with vastly fewer troops and Molotov cocktails.
I believe that many if not most volunteer soldiers come from W. Ukraine. I doubt if W. Ukraine will ever fall to Russia again.
You overestimate the United States and human nature. You don't understand how the Soviet system disfigures people psychologically and culturally.
Human nature is cowardly. It is wise to avoid a fight rather than engage in one. Most people leave when war comes being both wise for some and cowardly in others. Those that do fight have my respect, but it is not what I expect out of the majority of people.
The United States that you describe stands in contrast to one that elected and re-elected a President more comfortable on the Hollywood red carpet than one on main street doing work.
The Soviet Union . . . that speaks for itself, you are a student of history. I am rather surprised you would make such statements given the limitations of the post-Soviet mind in this part of the world.
I fear it's too late, however I agree with the statement that if Ukrainian's had been properly armed they would have defended their territory completely.
Other nations observing this will want to keep Nuclear weapons or get them, in order to defend against unchecked aggression.
This statement is inconsistent logically with your previous statement. The Ukrainians are cowardly yet those that want to fight, we shouldn't arm because they won't stand a chance anyway? My view is that resistance is a state of mind and it should always be nurtured. We should always nurture such resistance to those willing hands. The more probably the victory the more numerous the hands. Still even in the most dubious prospect of military victory, we should supply them with ample arms and training to resist and roll back the invader. I also don't think the Russian system is very strong. Russia is a wealthy country. The Russians themselves are a strong and important people. Yet a system of slavery is by definition inefficient and this particular brand of corruption lopsided.
Ukraine over 90% of Ukrainian arms is over 15 years old. The Ukrainian diaspora has funded volunteer battalions of which there are by some estimates over 10,000. This Soviet organized military up until August was on the path of defeating Strelkov and needed Uncle Vova's regulars. During the phony Minsk truces, Ukraine has taken losses but they have inflicted losses against the enemy as well. That is very incredible.
I have never seen that before.
Putin cannot say to his people that his boys are dying because the Germans, the Americans or the Poles are killing them. Ukrainians are killing them - filling the trucks of Gruz 200. Putin calls Ukraine a NATO legion. None of that is true except in the sense that Ukraine is defending NATO and Ukrainians bled carrying the EU flag on the Maidan.
Let me echo the words of my old boss Senator John McCain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTML-6wBowY
We should arm and train these people now.
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Following on LT's post above and making a similar major point.
My apologies to the author of the work below ( Allan)
"To all the true believers:
I am really glad that so many individuals on this Site are so Pro-Russian that any rational discussion about Russian strength or aggression are dismissed. I have found that when individuals can't accept the facts or have their minds made up they will immediately go into their default arguments of "well it is you that are being influenced by Western media...Oh no my media gives me nothing but the facts". These True Believers are so vested with their views that they are blinded by them. This is actually a good thing.
As an ex-military man with black ops. experience, the biggest advantage any military force can have, is an adversary that truly does believe it is Superior. Most countries with weak Armed Forces can do one thing...That is beat their chest and Bloviate...sound familiar??? This behavior is all factored into the mix. The US does not get all concerned when Russian fighters violate our air space in Alaska or the Gulf of Mexico. No we actually scramble some old fighters from our National Guard units and shoo them away. These intruders never see the super fast technical advanced fighters with lazer mounted weapons....those are in hangers far away.
As I have mentioned in this forum before. It is really quite simple. A Socialistic or Communistic government/country will NEVER be able to out think or out produce a free market democracy. It is in the human genes....people will work 10 times as hard to come up with inventions or solutions if they believe they will have a vested interest (monetarily or otherwise) in the outcome. That means new materials, faster electronics, lazar guidance systems, smarter operating personnel...cutting edge technologies. Why do you think we are the #1 producer of Natural Gas and Oil.....you guessed it - Our Technology. We don't have to go steal it from some other country, we create it here. BTW the old spy trick is to actually let your adversaries steal some of your technology giving them the false sense of Superiority, all the while the 3rd. and 4th. generation advances are already being incorporated into your weapons systems.
So you see, True Believers and Useful Idiots are very important in maintaining the advantage once the real "Shit Hits The Fan". Once they realize they made a hugh mistake it will be all over. One last note - Believers will always default to things like "But Russia has so many Nuclear Weapons it could destroy the world". I hate to break it to all you Believers, but Nuclear Weapons (although formatable) are so outdated. Technological advancements can render every one launched as useless as most of these discussion.
Keep on sniffing the glue and drinking the vodka...tear your shirt open and beat on your chest....we need you just the way you are!!!!
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You overestimate the United States and human nature. You don't understand how the Soviet system disfigures people psychologically and culturally.
Human nature is cowardly. It is wise to avoid a fight rather than engage in one. Most people leave when war comes being both wise for some and cowardly in others. Those that do fight have my respect, but it is not what I expect out of the majority of people.
The United States that you describe stands in contrast to one that elected and re-elected a President more comfortable on the Hollywood red carpet than one on main street doing work.
The Soviet Union . . . that speaks for itself, you are a student of history. I am rather surprised you would make such statements given the limitations of the post-Soviet mind in this part of the world.
This statement is inconsistent logically with your previous statement. The Ukrainians are cowardly yet those that want to fight, we shouldn't arm because they won't stand a chance anyway? My view is that resistance is a state of mind and it should always be nurtured. We should always nurture such resistance to those willing hands. The more probably the victory the more numerous the hands. Still even in the most dubious prospect of military victory, we should supply them with ample arms and training to resist and roll back the invader. I also don't think the Russian system is very strong. Russia is a wealthy country. The Russians themselves are a strong and important people. Yet a system of slavery is by definition inefficient and this particular brand of corruption lopsided.
Ukraine over 90% of Ukrainian arms is over 15 years old. The Ukrainian diaspora has funded volunteer battalions of which there are by some estimates over 10,000. This Soviet organized military up until August was on the path of defeating Strelkov and needed Uncle Vova's regulars. During the phony Minsk truces, Ukraine has taken losses but they have inflicted losses against the enemy as well. That is very incredible.
I have never seen that before.
Putin cannot say to his people that his boys are dying because the Germans, the Americans or the Poles are killing them. Ukrainians are killing them - filling the trucks of Gruz 200. Putin calls Ukraine a NATO legion. None of that is true except in the sense that Ukraine is defending NATO and Ukrainians bled carrying the EU flag on the Maidan.
Let me echo the words of my old boss Senator John McCain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTML-6wBowY
We should arm and train these people now.
LT ,
nicely expressed ,
agree with your writings above
SX
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High praise from a classy guy. Thank you Southern.
There are a lot of stories of Ukrainian draft dodging.
Here is a story about Russian conscripts dodging the war
http://m.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/national/russian-conscripts-tell-of-fears-of-being-sent-to-ukraine356ae59688c44d83acf02af55aff8291-293197311.html
By the way, guys who don't want to go to war should not be made to go. I knew plenty of guys who didn't want to go. After 3 tours, I was done too. You shouldn't be on the battle line if you don't want be there.
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They can serve the Ukrainian cause in other ways.
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IMO there should be hundreds of thousands of civilian volunteers right now in Mariupol digging trenches and ditches to stop the tanks which are inevitably coming.
There may well be - certainly not hundreds of thousands, because there aren't that many people of the right age living in the city, but hopefully many.
There should be hundreds of thousands of volunteer snipers in all of the apartment buildings and other high-rise buildings.
Apart from the fact that the city's population was only 463,000 at the last census, you need to remember that Ukraine does not have the gun laws that most of the USA "enjoys." The vast majority of people do not have guns, or access to them.
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There may well be -
I think we would have seen some photographic evidence...when I view a video from the affected regions it is often accompanied with many bystanders strolling about with no obvious concern, or apparent sense of urgency, even with dead or dying people close by....just an oddity.
Fathertime!
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There may well be - certainly not hundreds of thousands, because there aren't that many people of the right age living in the city, but hopefully many.
Apart from the fact that the city's population was only 463,000 at the last census, you need to remember that Ukraine does not have the gun laws that most of the USA "enjoys." The vast majority of people do not have guns, or access to them.
In my experience, that is not the case. Everyone I know, has a gun or guns at home. They might not be sniper rifles, but they do in fact have guns.
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You have been to Ukraine. How many have guns? Also would you agree that the political history of Ukraine and the US is a little different? Perhaps your comparison was unfair?
I don't know if I would say "unfair" however I've thought about it and agree Ukraine's history is vastly different then US history.
Because they know what evil the Russians are capable of (holodomor, stalinization) Ukrainians I think are afraid to get involved and they feel hopeless that they could win without proper weapons.
The ones who have volunteered are indeed true hero's for their country as well as the many on fb getting donations for supplies and running those supplies out to the front.
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I think we would have seen some photographic evidence...when I view a video from the affected regions it is often accompanied with many bystanders strolling about with no obvious concern, or apparent sense of urgency, even with dead or dying people close by....just an oddity.
Fathertime!
thats because you dont understand the culture old boy
people not wanting to get involved in everyhting & minding their own business seems strange to westerners
SX
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He doesn't understand the culture.
Would you say there is a generation gap between the over 40 people and those under 40?
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I've thought about it and agree Ukraine's history is vastly different then US history.
My understanding is that the Cossacks were fairly democratic. The Constitution that Philip Orlik was the first written Constitution in Europe preceding our Constitution by 80 years. It provided for a division of powers.
The Russians too had a chance for a Democratic Constitution in 1825, Tsar Alexander II (assassinated) 1905 and Kerensky's government in 1917. The history of Western civilization would have been much different of anyone of these attempts succeeded or if any of our attempts at democracy failed. What if Aaron Burr became President instead of Adams or Jefferson for example?
What if the Ukrainians maintained a united front against the Bolsheviks instead of killing each other after the February Revolution?
Both Ukraine and Russia have been disfigured by the Soviet experience. And we in America have experience with Soviets in our government (BHO and the creepy socialism since W.Wilson).
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He doesn't understand the culture.
Would you say there is a generation gap between the over 40 people and those under 40?
LT imo , there is nor age gap in being able to understand the culture , you just need to read , experience and live it , then after some time , you start to get it
howver , there is an age gap imo if you talk about the differences between those who grew up/lived under soviet rule compared to those who have not , or where very young , say under 10 when it crumbled
that difference is their quite clearly imho when you spend time with the older generation say over 40 and those under 40
SX
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when I view a video from the affected regions it is often accompanied with many bystanders strolling about with no obvious concern, or apparent sense of urgency, even with dead or dying people close by....just an oddity.
I think that I understand your feelings about this. I remember a time when one could marvel at the seeming indifference of attitudes during the Soviet period. 80 odd years had ingrained a sense of "don't get involved" and "keep looking ahead and pretend nothing is out of the ordinary." It was something of amazement to those from freer cultures. As the CCCP disintegrated, there was a lot of violence. For survival, one needed to move forward, and ignore that victim else you might be the next.
I tired of challenging my cousin Gera, now a captain in Moscow's Kremlin police district, at the abuses. I would tell him of drunks who were seen beaten by officers. Once Mrs. M and I were at an outdoor shopping mall operated by immigrants, when the police raided. I watched old men beaten and women merchants clubbed while their children cowered and screamed. Gera would shrug and say something along the lines of "eta Rossiya (its Russia)," as if that explained it all. If I pressed the issue he'd sometimes snap in exasperation that "until there is blood and broken bones, we can't even begin to question a suspect."
When a bomb goes off on a bus, or an apartment is shelled, there is anger, but life is too short, and in some cases an empty stomach is just a day away without effort, so the violence is pushed aside and like in Soviet times, one learns to put your head down and keep moving forward. It is the same basic reason why Muscovites too often pay scant attention to the lights and sirens of emergency vehicles in heavy Moscow traffic: nobody will pull over if I am dying, so why should I pull over for them?
Some years back I saw an elderly man have a heart attack near the platform of an underground Moscow Metro station. It was afternoon rush hour. Thousands of people pass through this station in the afternoon, but nobody cared. They stepped around him and patiently waited for the next train car. Who bent down to help? An American--me. Even with a painfully sprained ankle at the time, who hobbled up a transition tunnel and then upstairs to the police substation located in the entryway of most stations? An American--me. One policeman brushed me aside as he had more important paperwork to attend. A younger officer didn't seem that interested, but I made him, forced him back down that tunnel. To this day, I do not know if the old gentleman survived. It appeared that he was just one more pensioner, taking space.
Corruption, and mafia, just cannot help but be bosom buddies with violence. For decades, Russia and Ukraine have been ruled by corrupt Oligarchs and regional mafia rings. Violence can be so common that it just isn't news anymore. Thankfully, efforts at change have been attempted, and this is one reason why Ukrainians don't want to be tied to Mama Russia's apron strings. But it is a culture that will take years to reverse.
I do not write this to excuse the violence, nor the causes, or even the lack of response that you have observed. But, having lived in the region--I have reluctantly come to understand. That understanding is disheartening.
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Agree with SX & Mendy.
The Soviet Union killed civil society as it competed with totalitarian view of life.
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I think that I understand your feelings about this. I remember a time when one could marvel at the seeming indifference of attitudes during the Soviet period. 80 odd years had ingrained a sense of "don't get involved" and "keep looking ahead and pretend nothing is out of the ordinary." It was something of amazement to those from freer cultures. As the CCCP disintegrated, there was a lot of violence. For survival, one needed to move forward, and ignore that victim else you might be the next.
Thanks for the explanation and story.
Fathertime!
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Mende,
I love reading your stuff however I wish you would quote a person in such a way so that I could see who you are quoting. Thanks.
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Mendy,
In my trips to Ukraine I noticed the same characteristic of people looking straight ahead and ignoring people in general. I noticed that some people keep their heads straight ahead but move only their eyes to make glances of those around them. It was somewhat amusing to watch people try to avoid being detected watching anything not straight ahead.
I also noticed that this characteristic is mostly present in folks of the older generations. The young people up to about 30 years old do not seem to practice this characteristic as much. I also notice that nearly everyone looks away from police as they pass by. As it was explained to me, if you make eye contact with police it is like you are giving them an excuse to question you.
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In my trips to Ukraine I noticed the same characteristic of people looking straight ahead and ignoring people in general. I noticed that some people keep their heads straight ahead but move only their eyes to make glances of those around them. It was somewhat amusing to watch people try to avoid being detected watching anything not straight ahead.
Yes. I noticed the same when I walked the streets of New York in 1996. Not even as much as a nod from passers-by ;)
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NYC is a friendly city.
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Yes. I noticed the same when I walked the streets of New York in 1996. Not even as much as a nod from passers-by ;)
Your probably right about New York. I have never been there and have no desire to. Might be a characteristic of more the East Coast.
I have also been told the same thing about New Yorkers, but suspect the reasons for this behavior is different from those in the former USSR.
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Thanks for the explanation and story.
Fathertime!
I guess you learn something new about that part of the world everyday Mendy posts to you. ;)
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Your probably right about New York. I have never been there and have no desire to. Might be a characteristic of more the East Coast.
I have also been told the same thing about New Yorkers, but suspect the reasons for this behavior is different from those in the former USSR.
Well, you should so you can dispel all those misconceptions. ;D
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Your probably right about New York. I have never been there and have no desire to. Might be a characteristic of more the East Coast.
I have also been told the same thing about New Yorkers, but suspect the reasons for this behavior is different from those in the former USSR.
Well Cal, this was kinda joke.
Me and a Norwegian guy who is married to an American and worked at the Place I had my internship in New Jersey, went by Train to New York.
As we walked Times Square I jokingly said to him how I noticed nobody was Meeting Our eyes or nodding at us. He looked at me With a questionmark in his eyes (Im from the North, relaxed and joking, he's from Oslo, more serious). "You expect all these People walking the NY streets greeting you"? he said and we had a good laugh.
But on a more serious note as to this post. People in large Places generally do not care. It's not a Russian thing. Recently I've seen Things set up, on TV, where you'd really think most People would interact, but don't. Maybe 10% act . I'm very sure they have made TV shows about this in most countries.
Seems most People don't want to get involved. Maybe the bigger their Places of living are, the less they care. I live in a tiny village of 300 People. Here, we care. If we see something, if we don't get physically involved (I do) we care enough to at least make phone Calls. I don't believe it comes Down to individual qualities though, just a matter of where you live and what you're used to do in certain situations.
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In my experience, that is not the case. Everyone I know, has a gun or guns at home. They might not be sniper rifles, but they do in fact have guns.
Interesting - the opposite of my experience, but then I only spent a couple of weeks there and wasn't expecting people to produce guns as a conversation piece. :)
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Interesting - the opposite of my experience, but then I only spent a couple of weeks there and wasn't expecting people to produce guns as a conversation piece. :)
To be honest, I would not have known if it were just casual relationships. However when networking through close friends in Ukraine, I found when visiting ordinary folks, once your introduced and trust seems to be established, the guns come out for discussion and examination. Probably a manly thing, like in the USA. :)
I am not sure I remember the exact translation, but when I asked about my wife's guns she told me that when at the University they were trained in shooting guns. She claims to have achieved 'Marksman" but I don't think I want to find out. :D
Sounded like it might have been something like ROTC, but not sure. It was about 20 years ago that she was in school.
The most important Russian expression I learned early was "Yes Dear".
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The financial war which we seem to engage in seems to not be going perfectly. I just read that Great Britain is attempting to join the Asian Infrastructure bank, to the USA's dismay. China is spearheading this bank which is in response to what has felt has been unfair treatment from the IMF, based in Washington.
China is making moves everywhere right now...and gaining supporters.
[size=78%]http://news.yahoo.com/britain-seeks-join-china-backed-infrastructure-bank-230740254.html (http://news.yahoo.com/britain-seeks-join-china-backed-infrastructure-bank-230740254.html)[/size]
Fathertime!
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The financial war which we seem to engage in seems to not be going perfectly. I just read that Great Britain is attempting to join the Asian Infrastructure bank, to the USA's dismay. China is spearheading this bank which is in response to what has felt has been unfair treatment from the IMF, based in Washington.
China is making moves everywhere right now...and gaining supporters.
[size=78%]http://news.yahoo.com/britain-seeks-join-china-backed-infrastructure-bank-230740254.html (http://news.yahoo.com/britain-seeks-join-china-backed-infrastructure-bank-230740254.html)[/size]
To update this further...now Germany, France, Luxenbourg, and Italy are joining the Chinese infrastructure bank. All this despite our pleas (The USA) for them to 'think twice'. If finances are becoming a weapon in warfare, then China is winning over allies all over Europe....while we are agitating nations the world around with our boorish interference and threats. Something is going to have to change soon.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/18/us-europe-asia-bank-idUSKBN0MD0B320150318 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/18/us-europe-asia-bank-idUSKBN0MD0B320150318)Fathertime!
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Deciding not to do business with murderers is not economic warfare. Economic warfare is disrupting and damaging the target economy after sanctions.
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To update this further...now Germany, France, Luxenbourg, and Italy are joining the Chinese infrastructure bank. All this despite our pleas (The USA) for them to 'think twice'. If finances are becoming a weapon in warfare, then China is winning over allies all over Europe....while we are agitating nations the world around with our boorish interference and threats. Something is going to have to change soon.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/18/us-europe-asia-bank-idUSKBN0MD0B320150318 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/18/us-europe-asia-bank-idUSKBN0MD0B320150318)Fathertime!
From the link -
It's not an accident that emerging economies are looking at other places because they are frustrated that, frankly, the United States has stalled a very mild and reasonable set of reforms in the IMF," Lew said. Some Republicans have complained the changes would cost too much at a time Washington is running big budget deficits. The reforms have also ran afoul of a growing isolationist trend among the party's influential Tea Party wing.
It appears Congress has shot itself in the foot again.
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To update this further...now Germany, France, Luxenbourg, and Italy are joining the Chinese infrastructure bank.
You are an investor. If you believe this will have a serious impact, short the American dollar, sell your American stock holdings, and buy BABA (Alibaba) and Chinese ETFs.
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You are an investor. If you believe this will have a serious impact, short the American dollar, sell your American stock holdings, and buy BABA (Alibaba) and Chinese ETFs.
I'm fully invested in the USA...if it goes down, so do I. Shorting the dollar would probably be a good move though...it has been hitting fresh highwater almost daily (Up until the Fed's wording today).
Things like the Chinese infrastructure bank and our allies joining it against our will are demonstrating that the USA will probably be losing a lot of it's worldwide sway. The nice growth we have had over the past 30 years is not likely to continue...IMO....although very modest growth isn't the end of the world, and is to be expected in a mature economy. It would be a boon for me if we had another period of rapid growth, but I don't see it happening right now.
Fathertime!
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From the link -
It appears Congress has shot itself in the foot again.
I would caution anyone ascribing truth to anything said by these bipartisan wimps in DC.
The US Economy is stalled because Consumer Confidence is in the toilet. If you want Reagan-Clinton job growth, repeal D-F, SOX, lay off government workers, pay off the debt, replace the income tax with sales tax & audit the Fed. Its not that hard, if you have the will.
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I'm fully invested in the USA...if it goes down, so do I. Shorting the dollar would probably be a good move though...it has been hitting fresh highwater almost daily (Up until the Fed's wording today).
Things like the Chinese infrastructure bank and our allies joining it against our will are demonstrating that the USA will probably be losing a lot of it's worldwide sway. The nice growth we have had over the past 30 years is not likely to continue...IMO....although very modest growth isn't the end of the world, and is to be expected in a mature economy. It would be a boon for me if we had another period of rapid growth, but I don't see it happening right now.
Fathertime!
When the Dollar dies, try buying your bread and eggs with some Chinese yen :rolleyes:
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The financial war which we seem to engage in seems to not be going perfectly. I just read that Great Britain is attempting to join the Asian Infrastructure bank, to the USA's dismay. China is spearheading this bank which is in response to what has felt has been unfair treatment from the IMF, based in Washington.
China is making moves everywhere right now...and gaining supporters.
Here's Paul Craig Roberts comments on this issue:
"Washington’s EU vassals might be finding their backbone. Britain, Germany, France, and Italy are reported to have defied Washington’s orders and applied to join the Chinese-led Asian Investment Bank. Australia, Japan, South Korea, Switzerland and Luxembourg might also join.
Washington uses its development banks such as the Asian Development Bank, the World Bank, along with the IMF, in order to exercise financial and political hegemony. These banks are crucial elements of American economic and political imperialism.
The Chinese-led bank will, of course, be much more effective. The Chinese will use the bank to actually help countries and thereby make friends and grow trust, whereas Washington uses its banks for domination by force.
This new bank, together with the BRICS Bank, will provide countries with escape routes from Washington’s domination.
The Evil Empire is beginning to crack. It will crack more as the Russian-Chinese alliance unfolds its potentials and when European capitals understand that hegemonic Washington has put their existence at risk in order to try to prevent Russia’s rise. The crazed American and British neocon nazis, and their dupes among the populations, comprise the greatest human threat that the world has ever known. The sooner the Evil Empire collapses, the safer the world will be."
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When the Dollar dies, try buying your bread and eggs with some Chinese yen :rolleyes:
Well if indeed the dollar dies like you predict then the problems stemming from it would be very bad for me...but I'm not entirely convinced that is inevitable...but it's dominance is under attack...
Fathertime!
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Here's Paul Craig Roberts comments on this issue:
"Washington’s EU vassals might be finding their backbone. Britain, Germany, France, and Italy are reported to have defied Washington’s orders and applied to join the Chinese-led Asian Investment Bank. Australia, Japan, South Korea, Switzerland and Luxembourg might also join.
Washington uses its development banks such as the Asian Development Bank, the World Bank, along with the IMF, in order to exercise financial and political hegemony. These banks are crucial elements of American economic and political imperialism.
The Chinese-led bank will, of course, be much more effective. The Chinese will use the bank to actually help countries and thereby make friends and grow trust, whereas Washington uses its banks for domination by force.
This new bank, together with the BRICS Bank, will provide countries with escape routes from Washington’s domination.
The Evil Empire is beginning to crack. It will crack more as the Russian-Chinese alliance unfolds its potentials and when European capitals understand that hegemonic Washington has put their existence at risk in order to try to prevent Russia’s rise. The crazed American and British neocon nazis, and their dupes among the populations, comprise the greatest human threat that the world has ever known. The sooner the Evil Empire collapses, the safer the world will be."
Apparently this perspective is a lot more common then the everyday American realizes.
Fathertime!
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Well if indeed the dollar dies like you predict then the problems stemming from it would be very bad for me...but I'm not entirely convinced that is inevitable...but it's dominance is under attack...
Fathertime!
It's smoke and mirrors not dominance. When Wall St folds the world financial markets will fold.
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I usually can't access the WSJ for free, but this book review is available. It is fascinating, and I'll likely read the book. It came on my radar after a Canadian paper interviewed the author on his speculation that Alberta would cede from Canada -
http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-the-accidental-superpower-by-peter-zeihan-1417653112 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-the-accidental-superpower-by-peter-zeihan-1417653112)
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Neville, the guy is a crackpot alright. But I almost burst out laughing at this:
It will crack more as the Russian-Chinese alliance unfolds
What part of that alliance is the permanent stationing of some 30% of Russia's forces along the border to protect against Chinese incursions?
Is Russia's famed "Railway Troop," designed in part to protect Russia's rail system from Chinese sabotage, a part of that alliance?
Keep reading those comics. They may not be very enlightening, but I needed a good laugh today!
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Neville, the guy is a crackpot alright. But I almost burst out laughing at this:
What part of that alliance is the permanent stationing of some 30% of Russia's forces along the border to protect against Chinese incursions?
Is Russia's famed "Railway Troop," designed in part to protect Russia's rail system from Chinese sabotage, a part of that alliance?
Keep reading those comics. They may not be very enlightening, but I needed a good laugh today!
I thought I was Neville? If so then you should be addressing the poster who posted the link, as it wasn't me.
Fathertime!
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I thought I was Neville? If so then you should be addressing the poster who posted the link, as it wasn't me.
Fathertime!
Haha, you AND Paul Craig Roberts are both Neville. Actually, under normal conditions you should be proud to be compared to PCR, unfortunately Mr. boots-on-the-ground isn't normal. Yeah, like I would take his Word over the brilliant PCR's, haha. Propaganda workers like that don't Reach him up to his little toe, even...... but they can be used for a good sarcastic laugh....
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Natural,
There are people like PCR, who doesn't get out of the country, and then there are those who actually live in the areas affected. Mr. Roberts was born in 1939. At the start of WWII. His claim to the Reagan administration has been disavowed by most of the participants at one time or another. Their typical take on him is that he's a cuckoo bird.
You can take PCR and live by his Gospel. But, for me, I'll stick with guys with feet on the ground.
Keep 'em coming, Mendy.
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When the Dollar dies, try buying your bread and eggs with some Chinese yen :rolleyes:
Is that related to the Mexican peseta? Or the Russian hryvnia? :cluebat:
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Is that related to the Mexican peseta? Or the Russian hryvnia? :cluebat:
WTH are you yapping about now? Yuan make you happy? So you're a spelling Nazi now? FYI Yuan is often referred to as yen in civilized countries. Oh but that's right, you don't live in one.
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FYI Yuan is often referred to as yen in civilized countries.
I must live in an uncivilised country too, here Yen is considered Japan's currency, while Yuan is the basic unit of the renminbi,the official currency of the People's Republic of China.
(http://www.leftovercurrency.com/Resources/banknote-1000-japanese-yen-soseki-natsume-1984.jpg)
1,000 yen
(http://a.mytrend.it/fxe/2014/11/551064/o.266813.jpg)
100 Yuan
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I must live in an uncivilised country too, here Yen is considered Japan's currency, while Yuan is the basic unit of the renminbi,the official currency of the People's Republic of China.
(http://www.leftovercurrency.com/Resources/banknote-1000-japanese-yen-soseki-natsume-1984.jpg)
1,000 yen
(http://a.mytrend.it/fxe/2014/11/551064/o.266813.jpg)
100 Yuan
I stand corrected. Of course that doesn't move the Eyetalians into the civilized world but I digress :D
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Is that related to the Mexican peseta? Or the Russian hryvnia? :cluebat:
So the guy made a minor error. .no reason to try and clobber him over the head....people get his point.
Fathertime!
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Hi Kettle!
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Hi Kettle!
Hi!
I'm sorry for being mean to you all the time but you deserve it!! :D
Fathertime!
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Is that related to the Mexican peseta? Or the Russian hryvnia? :cluebat:
Psst! It is Peso. The Peseta was the currency in Spain before the Euro.
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Hi!
I'm sorry for being mean to you all the time but you deserve it!! :D
Fathertime!
Keep your day job and if that don't apply. Get one.
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Psst! It is Peso. The Peseta was the currency in Spain before the Euro.
I think that was his point in pointing out my error of the Chinese Japanese yen
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Duh
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Quite often, subtlety goes unrecognized and, consequently, unappreciated.
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I stand corrected. Of course that doesn't move the Eyetalians into the civilized world but I digress :D
OK, but we shall be wary of welcoming you as our currency-trading advisor ;D.
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The Peseta was the currency in Spain before the Euro.
As was the dollar, before somebody stole the copyright :D.
(http://www.govmint.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/480x325/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/7/1772-1832-first-us-silver-dollar-spanish-8-reales_238572_3.jpg)
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OK, but we shall be wary of welcoming you as our currency-trading advisor ;D.
And a very wise choice that would be :D
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Psst! It is Peso. The Peseta was the currency in Spain before the Euro.
Muzh, and isn't pasta the currency of Italy? :D
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Muzh, and isn't pasta the currency of Italy? :D
Nope, Pesto is. ;D
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Muzh:
Nope, Pesto is.
Sandro will accuse us both for being cheesy!
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But maybe if they're combined you'll have supper? :clapping:
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Instant dinner? That would be 'Presto'.
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
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Not bad!
Not good but not bad either.! ;D
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How about a pasto in un bel posto (a meal in a nice place) ;)?
(http://www.amalfiristorantevillafelice.it/images/home-page.jpg)Amalfi
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The Kremlin is worried about not just what the American troops are teaching the Ukrainians, but what they may be learning from them and the Donbas battlefield.
“Putin is ready to fight with NATO, as he seriously believes that the U.S. wants to occupy Russia.”
There is no doubt that Putin is crazy!
American Paratroopers in Ukraine Have Putin Rattled
YAVORIV, Ukraine — The clatter of rifle fire, the thud of mortars, and the thunder of grenades echoed across this military training ground near the Polish border.
It was nothing that many of the Ukrainian soldiers arriving here hadn’t heard before in the eastern regions of their country, and it was familiar music, as well, to the Americans who have come here to try to make them even better fighters.
The Ukrainians brought stories from the front about the enemy, the arms, and the firepower used against Ukrainian troops. For American soldiers, listening to these members of former Soviet forces talking about their adversaries, also from the former Soviet army, this has been an education. It has given them a chance to study in granular detail a great deal about the evolution of Russian combat forces in the last quarter-century.
Indeed, U.S. troops and Ukrainian troops learning from each other seems to be just the kind of thing that Russian President Vladimir Putin was worrying about when he called an emergency meeting of his security council on Wednesday.
As the pace of fighting in eastern Ukraine picks up (with each side blaming the other, as usual), one of Moscow’s stated concerns is about Ukraine’s new defense doctrine, officially released this week.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/13/american-paratroopers-in-ukraine-have-putin-rattled.html
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I sent my wife this article. It baffled her. It shows the way they interpret English, and I had to laugh.
Para means couples
Trooper means corpse
Her question to me was, why was the USA sending a couple of corpses ....I had to laugh and explain it to her :)
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I dont even need bother reading 80+ pages af banter. Simple fact is while this muslim bozo is in charge of America there is NOTHING but Ukrainian willpower to stop the Russian agression. The USA under Obama is content to let Putin have Ukraine if the price is right as long as he can claim victory in Iran and Syria.
Ukraine means absolutely nothing to the Obama regime. If Ukraine was a muslim country there would already be 100,000 US troops in Ukraine to defend it.
IF, stressing the IF here, the US had a president with balls to stand up to Russia and actually help Ukraine then it would be a simple defeat for the Russian Donbas.
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I do not think the USA could get into a major war right now...
The American Public got their fill in Iraq and Afghanistan...
The next major US War will be against ISIS... Iraq 2.0
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The evidence since 2012 is that Putin’s nuclear moves are becoming even more dangerous, including a reported doctrinal innovation that ironically envisions Russia’s first use of nuclear weapons as a form of nuclear “de-escalation” — that is, if Russia uses nuclear weapons in a local conflict, opponents will cease resistance, thus de-escalating the crisis.
Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work rightfully stated this month in open testimony before Congress that with this doctrinal innovation, Russia “is literally playing with fire.” These are not Cold War musings; they are a description of contemporary reality.
Putin Wields the Nuclear Threat — and Plays with Fire
During the Cold War, the United States and the Soviet Union established a nuclear relationship commonly called Mutual Assured Destruction, known by the pejorative acronym MAD. The basic notion was that Washington and Moscow each possessed sufficient nuclear capability to destroy the other’s society, however a war might start. This mutual vulnerability was expected to ensure that each would be deterred from severely provoking the other.
This condition of mutual deterrence, enforced by mutual nuclear vulnerability, was thought to create a “stable balance of terror” that would help prevent large-scale war. That hope was expressed by Sir Winston Churchill when he suggested that “safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and survival the twin brother of annihilation.”
Although the United States never actually adopted MAD as a formal policy, most of the public debate and discussion of nuclear weapons in the United States revolved around the MAD notion of a balance of terror. The father of the atomic bomb, Robert Oppenheimer, for example, described the U.S.–Soviet relationship as akin to “two scorpions in a bottle, each capable of killing the other, but only at the risk of his own life.” While grisly-sounding, MAD and a “stable” balance of terror suggested fundamentally defensive U.S. and Soviet positions, with each side presumably compelled to stay in its lane lest it risk unleashing a nuclear holocaust. With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, MAD and the balance of terror were relegated to the role of historical footnotes, or so it seemed. Absent the Cold War, most commentators, including senior U.S. military officers, decreed that nuclear weapons, MAD, and nuclear deterrence were increasingly irrelevant.
Great-power relations supposedly had become more amicable and law-abiding: Nuclear strategy was old-think; nuclear crises were history; and nuclear war was now inconceivable. As the retired commander of the U.S. Strategic Command, General James Cartwright, argued in a 2012 study promoting “nuclear zero”: MAD no longer occupies a central psychological or political space in the U.S.–Russian relationship. . . . The risk of nuclear confrontation between the United States and either Russia or China belongs to the past, not the future. This cheery view became accepted wisdom in Washington, and the Obama administration identified the pursuit of nuclear disarmament (“nuclear zero”) as a high-priority goal. As is often the case, however, the reality of international relations has proven far harsher than accepted wisdom would admit. The stark fact in this third post–Cold War decade is that Russia’s approach to grand strategy and nuclear weapons is more aggressive and indeed more dangerous than ever was envisaged by those who set forth the notions of MAD and a stable balance of terror. Russia’s posture is not the essentially defensive position implicit in notions of MAD and mutual nuclear deterrence. Putin has what Hitler lacked: nuclear weapons.
With these, he attempts to pressure neighboring states to timidly accept Moscow’s desires, including the redrawing of European borders and ‘Russification.’ Instead, Russian president Vladimir Putin has taken a page from Nazi Germany’s playbook of the 1930s and early 1940s. He claims responsibility for ethnic Russian minorities in neighboring countries. We saw this gambit in Russia’s war against Georgia in 2008, in the military occupation of Crimea in 2014, and in its ongoing military operations in Eastern Ukraine. “Ethnic cleansing” and “Russification” of key areas have followed some of these military operations. But Putin has what Hitler lacked: nuclear weapons. With these, he attempts to pressure neighboring states to timidly accept Moscow’s desires, including the redrawing of European borders and “Russification.”
Russia now wields nuclear weapons and threats not only to protect its territory but also to intimidate and coerce its neighbors into submission. Moscow’s crude nuclear threats to its neighbors, including American allies, vividly demonstrate its aggressive nuclear strategy. Those threats are intended to stoke such fear in the U.S. and its allies that all will hesitate to respond strongly to Russian military aggression. For Putin, the fruits of this grand strategy include approval ratings within Russia that are the envy of the world: 89 percent. In short, Russia’s strategy is now one of nuclear coercion, not stable mutual deterrence. How far Putin will push this strategy remains an open question, but recent history does not suggest a comforting answer. As Secretary of Defense Ash Carter observed in a speech to American allies this month: “Moscow’s nuclear sabre-rattling raises questions about Russia’s commitment to strategic stability and causes us . . . to wonder whether . . . they share the profound caution . . . that world leaders in the nuclear age have shown over decades to the brandishing of nuclear weapons.”
Precisely so, which is why Russia’s nuclear policies are now so dangerous. Claims that Russia, or any rational country, could use nuclear weapons and strategy in this manner — that they are not merely Cold War relics — continue to be dismissed in most Western quarters as the musings of Cold Warriors. The dangerous reality, however, has been obvious for several years. As the U.S. National Intelligence Council observed in 2012: Nuclear ambitions in the U.S. and Russia over the last 20 years have evolved in opposite directions. Reducing the role of nuclear weapons in U.S. security strategy is a U.S. objective, while Russia is pursuing new concepts and capabilities for expanding the role of nuclear weapons in its security strategy.
The evidence since 2012 is that Putin’s nuclear moves are becoming even more dangerous, including a reported doctrinal innovation that ironically envisions Russia’s first use of nuclear weapons as a form of nuclear “de-escalation” — that is, if Russia uses nuclear weapons in a local conflict, opponents will cease resistance, thus de-escalating the crisis. Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work rightfully stated this month in open testimony before Congress that with this doctrinal innovation, Russia “is literally playing with fire.” These are not Cold War musings; they are a description of contemporary reality. What to do about Russia’s imperialistic and coercive nuclear strategy? The first step is for Washington to awaken from its post–Cold War nuclear stupor and recognize that the world does not conform to the cheery visions put forth by those who continue to oppose U.S. nuclear programs and press for deeper and deeper reductions in America’s nuclear stockpile.
In recent congressional testimony, Admiral James Winnefeld, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, rightly described the situation regarding U.S. nuclear forces: “The choice right now is modernizing or losing deterrent capability. . . . That’s the stark choice we’re faced with.” There no longer is any reasonable argument about the prudent choice.
: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420510/russias-nuclear-strategy-coercion-and-intimidation?target=topic&tid=2402
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The evidence since 2012 is that Putin’s nuclear moves are becoming even more dangerous, including a reported doctrinal innovation that ironically envisions Russia’s first use of nuclear weapons as a form of nuclear “de-escalation” — that is, if Russia uses nuclear weapons in a local conflict, opponents will cease resistance, thus de-escalating the crisis.
Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work rightfully stated this month in open testimony before Congress that with this doctrinal innovation, Russia “is literally playing with fire.” These are not Cold War musings; they are a description of contemporary reality.
Putin Wields the Nuclear Threat — and Plays with Fire
During the Cold War, the United States and the Soviet Union established a nuclear relationship commonly called Mutual Assured Destruction, known by the pejorative acronym MAD. The basic notion was that Washington and Moscow each possessed sufficient nuclear capability to destroy the other’s society, however a war might start. This mutual vulnerability was expected to ensure that each would be deterred from severely provoking the other.
This condition of mutual deterrence, enforced by mutual nuclear vulnerability, was thought to create a “stable balance of terror” that would help prevent large-scale war. That hope was expressed by Sir Winston Churchill when he suggested that “safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and survival the twin brother of annihilation.”
Although the United States never actually adopted MAD as a formal policy, most of the public debate and discussion of nuclear weapons in the United States revolved around the MAD notion of a balance of terror. The father of the atomic bomb, Robert Oppenheimer, for example, described the U.S.–Soviet relationship as akin to “two scorpions in a bottle, each capable of killing the other, but only at the risk of his own life.” While grisly-sounding, MAD and a “stable” balance of terror suggested fundamentally defensive U.S. and Soviet positions, with each side presumably compelled to stay in its lane lest it risk unleashing a nuclear holocaust. With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, MAD and the balance of terror were relegated to the role of historical footnotes, or so it seemed. Absent the Cold War, most commentators, including senior U.S. military officers, decreed that nuclear weapons, MAD, and nuclear deterrence were increasingly irrelevant.
Great-power relations supposedly had become more amicable and law-abiding: Nuclear strategy was old-think; nuclear crises were history; and nuclear war was now inconceivable. As the retired commander of the U.S. Strategic Command, General James Cartwright, argued in a 2012 study promoting “nuclear zero”: MAD no longer occupies a central psychological or political space in the U.S.–Russian relationship. . . . The risk of nuclear confrontation between the United States and either Russia or China belongs to the past, not the future. This cheery view became accepted wisdom in Washington, and the Obama administration identified the pursuit of nuclear disarmament (“nuclear zero”) as a high-priority goal. As is often the case, however, the reality of international relations has proven far harsher than accepted wisdom would admit. The stark fact in this third post–Cold War decade is that Russia’s approach to grand strategy and nuclear weapons is more aggressive and indeed more dangerous than ever was envisaged by those who set forth the notions of MAD and a stable balance of terror. Russia’s posture is not the essentially defensive position implicit in notions of MAD and mutual nuclear deterrence. Putin has what Hitler lacked: nuclear weapons.
With these, he attempts to pressure neighboring states to timidly accept Moscow’s desires, including the redrawing of European borders and ‘Russification.’ Instead, Russian president Vladimir Putin has taken a page from Nazi Germany’s playbook of the 1930s and early 1940s. He claims responsibility for ethnic Russian minorities in neighboring countries. We saw this gambit in Russia’s war against Georgia in 2008, in the military occupation of Crimea in 2014, and in its ongoing military operations in Eastern Ukraine. “Ethnic cleansing” and “Russification” of key areas have followed some of these military operations. But Putin has what Hitler lacked: nuclear weapons. With these, he attempts to pressure neighboring states to timidly accept Moscow’s desires, including the redrawing of European borders and “Russification.”
Russia now wields nuclear weapons and threats not only to protect its territory but also to intimidate and coerce its neighbors into submission. Moscow’s crude nuclear threats to its neighbors, including American allies, vividly demonstrate its aggressive nuclear strategy. Those threats are intended to stoke such fear in the U.S. and its allies that all will hesitate to respond strongly to Russian military aggression. For Putin, the fruits of this grand strategy include approval ratings within Russia that are the envy of the world: 89 percent. In short, Russia’s strategy is now one of nuclear coercion, not stable mutual deterrence. How far Putin will push this strategy remains an open question, but recent history does not suggest a comforting answer. As Secretary of Defense Ash Carter observed in a speech to American allies this month: “Moscow’s nuclear sabre-rattling raises questions about Russia’s commitment to strategic stability and causes us . . . to wonder whether . . . they share the profound caution . . . that world leaders in the nuclear age have shown over decades to the brandishing of nuclear weapons.”
Precisely so, which is why Russia’s nuclear policies are now so dangerous. Claims that Russia, or any rational country, could use nuclear weapons and strategy in this manner — that they are not merely Cold War relics — continue to be dismissed in most Western quarters as the musings of Cold Warriors. The dangerous reality, however, has been obvious for several years. As the U.S. National Intelligence Council observed in 2012: Nuclear ambitions in the U.S. and Russia over the last 20 years have evolved in opposite directions. Reducing the role of nuclear weapons in U.S. security strategy is a U.S. objective, while Russia is pursuing new concepts and capabilities for expanding the role of nuclear weapons in its security strategy.
The evidence since 2012 is that Putin’s nuclear moves are becoming even more dangerous, including a reported doctrinal innovation that ironically envisions Russia’s first use of nuclear weapons as a form of nuclear “de-escalation” — that is, if Russia uses nuclear weapons in a local conflict, opponents will cease resistance, thus de-escalating the crisis. Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work rightfully stated this month in open testimony before Congress that with this doctrinal innovation, Russia “is literally playing with fire.” These are not Cold War musings; they are a description of contemporary reality. What to do about Russia’s imperialistic and coercive nuclear strategy? The first step is for Washington to awaken from its post–Cold War nuclear stupor and recognize that the world does not conform to the cheery visions put forth by those who continue to oppose U.S. nuclear programs and press for deeper and deeper reductions in America’s nuclear stockpile.
In recent congressional testimony, Admiral James Winnefeld, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, rightly described the situation regarding U.S. nuclear forces: “The choice right now is modernizing or losing deterrent capability. . . . That’s the stark choice we’re faced with.” There no longer is any reasonable argument about the prudent choice.
: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420510/russias-nuclear-strategy-coercion-and-intimidation?target=topic&tid=2402
this article is dead on accurate. Russia right now has no qualms about using tactical nuclear weapons to achieve their goals because they know that the west will bow down and capitulate to thier demands if they go there. lets face the facts. Obama only gives a fuck about muslims. Ukraine is not a muslim country so its only an inconvenient point to him.
Syria is more important. His muslim brotherhood friends must be allowed to remove Assad and set up shop in Syria since they failed in Egypt and Libya.
Obama will support the Iranian plan for Syria
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this article is dead on accurate. Russia right now has no qualms about using tactical nuclear weapons to achieve their goals because they know that the west will bow down and capitulate to thier demands if they go there. lets face the facts. Obama only gives a fuck about muslims. Ukraine is not a muslim country so its only an inconvenient point to him.
Syria is more important. His muslim brotherhood friends must be allowed to remove Assad and set up shop in Syria since they failed in Egypt and Libya.
Obama will support the Iranian plan for Syria
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/worf_zpscdd43ea9.gif)
Do you really think Russia would use their nukes and the US would do nothing?
Put down that cup of kool aid and stand back.
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Do you really think Russia would use their nukes and the US would do nothing?
It would depend if your buddy Obama is still Commander In Chief!
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It would depend if your buddy Obama is still Commander In Chief!
I'm going to use your comment as a segue, Cal. I'm no conspiracy theorist. However, an open question...
Off the top of my head my understanding of the 22nd Amendment is to secure a third term there has to be exceptional circumstances confronting the nation (US) and the sitting president has to gain approval of 75% of Congress, is this correct?
Or are there any other circumstances a President could secure a third term. For instance, like declaring martial law under threat of a pre-emptive strategic attack?
Brass
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You are correct but here are the two problems that Obama would have if that was his plan.
1) There is no way he'd get enough approval from Congress
2) If he declared Martial Law, he'd be overthrown in minutes as the government would not agree, the States would not agree and the military (which hates him) would not enforce it. Declaring Martial Law would basically start a civil war on the homefront that would be over very quick once Obama was arrested.
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You are correct but here are the two problems that Obama would have if that was his plan.
1) There is no way he'd get enough approval from Congress
2) If he declared Martial Law, he'd be overthrown in minutes as the government would not agree, the States would not agree and the military (which hates him) would not enforce it. Declaring Martial Law would basically start a civil war on the homefront that would be over very quick once Obama was arrested.
Oh for heavens sake. Why would President Obama would declare martial law? :rolleyes:
Second, who gives a rat's ass if the military hates him. They are bound by an oath to defend the constitution of the US and obey the CinC. This is NOT a theocracy a la Iran, no matter how much the conservatives would love to install.
How's the cave with survival gear coming up, dude?
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I'm just shaking my head reading all this nonsense posted here.
It shows that some people in this country:
1) live in fear,
2) don't like changes,
3) if it ain't white, it ain't worth it,
4) is loaded with useful idiots.
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Muzh, Ken wisely used the term "if" in his answer.
That being said, I think that "if" were to happen, he'd get approval from Congress. He got a bad Iran deal, an unfortunate sign that Congress no longer listens to the people, but is solely concerned with backing their own parties.
As for the military, it has been changed enough that it will not stand up to a popular leader should someone, of either party, go rouge.
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They are bound by an oath to defend the constitution of the US and obey the CinC
Muzh, it's obvious by all your posts that you have never served in ANY military. A soldier is bound to follow "LAWFUL" orders, not just whatever he is told. Declaring Martial Law would not be a lawful order by any means without approval from Congress and he'd never get that.
As for the military, it has been changed enough that it will not stand up to a popular leader should someone, of either party, go rouge.
Two problems here. One, Obama is NOT a popular leader. Two, the US Military represents the US people and while they are a tool of politicians, they are not beholden to the whims of some fanatical Socialist like Obama. As a vet, I can say this with certainty, Obama does not have any support or backing from the US military or veterans.
Until you pay taxes in the US or can actually vote in the US, I'd kindly ask that you concern yourself with the s@thole you live in and see if you can fix the corruption in Puerto Rico caused by the leftist policies you so obviously adore and leave the US politics to those that actually work for a living, pay taxes, vote and unfortunately financially support all these lazy, liberal wastes of human life.
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LOL, quite a few assumptions there, Ken. All erroneous, as well.
You can go back and read Muzh's old posts. He lives in the U.S. That is where he went to an Ivy League university and obtained his PhD. He has lived in New York for decades. That is where he met and married his first wife, and raised his children as their primary caregiver after his AW decided she'd rather party and sleep with men half her age than raise children. He worked for the State of New York for decades, as a toxicologist. He was the man who was primarily responsible for clean up of New York's waterways. He retired last year. after delaying his retirement at the request of the State of New York, so that he could complete a lengthy project he'd headed.
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to those that actually work for a living, pay taxes, vote and unfortunately financially support all these lazy, liberal wastes of human life.
I literally laughed out loud at this. This liberal waste of life rarely works less than a 70 work week, and 90 hours is not unusual.
I don't believe anyone is a waste of human life. That is for God to judge, not me.
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Wonderful for him. I stand corrected. New York, government employee, Ivy league brainwashing...Yup, that speaks volumes.
Now then, a proud AMERICAN would "fly" the American flag. Wouldn't that be appropriate? Or is burning the flag more to the liberals liking?
As usual, I'm not here to start a fight but I'll be damned if some "Lefty" is gonna preach about the good done by Democrats, insult a Veteran (nee John) or spread more of their hateful lies and not stand up and correct them. Thats what Libs count on, that they can spread their vitriol and no one will challenge them. Sorry, that won't happen with me.
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You can express your views without the vitriol.
Puerto Rico is a US overseas territory or "insular area".
If this lazy, good for nothing, multilingual foreign liberal knows that, why can't a dyed in the wool, red blooded real American figure it out?
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America is a very divided Land..
Some areas are very Conservative..
Some are more Liberal.
Some are even progressive..
What a beautiful place to live...
NY is a rather Liberal and some times progressive State compared to many places in the USA...
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Ken, Muzh is a level headed guy, even if he and I disagree on much in USA politics.
It is great to have friends who disagree. Sometimes, iron sharpens iron.
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Ken, Muzh is a level headed guy, even if he and I disagree on much in USA politics.
It is great to have friends who disagree. Sometimes, iron sharpens iron.
+1 Mendy. Muzh has had some gems over the years. He's put me in my place. And I consider him a friend.
Dunno what his wife sees in that ugly mug of his. He must have other attributes.
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You are correct but here are the two problems that Obama would have if that was his plan.
1) There is no way he'd get enough approval from Congress
2) If he declared Martial Law, he'd be overthrown in minutes as the government would not agree, the States would not agree and the military (which hates him) would not enforce it. Declaring Martial Law would basically start a civil war on the homefront that would be over very quick once Obama was arrested.
Thanks for this, Ken. Again, it's more curiosity than conjecture. I'm not even speculating on something of this nature occurring.
+1 Mendy. Muzh has had some gems over the years. He's put me in my place. And I consider him a friend.
Dunno what his wife sees in that ugly mug of his. He must have other attributes.
+2. The ol' Muzhmeister's a bud. He's got a great front porch, I've seen pics. :P
Brass
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Muzh, Ken wisely used the term "if" in his answer.
That being said, I think that "if" were to happen, he'd get approval from Congress. He got a bad Iran deal, an unfortunate sign that Congress no longer listens to the people, but is solely concerned with backing their own parties.
As for the military, it has been changed enough that it will not stand up to a popular leader should someone, of either party, go rouge.
Mendy, I've noticed that the only time Congress listen to people, according to some here, is when they enact some right-wing law.
Also, does it really matter whether a person uses "if" when spreading xenophobia, paranoia and demagoguery?
Answer me this, why do you think Obama would go rogue? Cheney had an opportunity, why didn't he?
It seems to me that these "American Patriots" do NOT believe in the system they so rabidly defend.
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They are bound by an oath to defend the constitution of the US and obey the CinC
Muzh, it's obvious by all your posts that you have never served in ANY military. A soldier is bound to follow "LAWFUL" orders, not just whatever he is told. Declaring Martial Law would not be a lawful order by any means without approval from Congress and he'd never get that.
As for the military, it has been changed enough that it will not stand up to a popular leader should someone, of either party, go rouge.
Two problems here. One, Obama is NOT a popular leader. Two, the US Military represents the US people and while they are a tool of politicians, they are not beholden to the whims of some fanatical Socialist like Obama. As a vet, I can say this with certainty, Obama does not have any support or backing from the US military or veterans.
Until you pay taxes in the US or can actually vote in the US, I'd kindly ask that you concern yourself with the s@thole you live in and see if you can fix the corruption in Puerto Rico caused by the leftist policies you so obviously adore and leave the US politics to those that actually work for a living, pay taxes, vote and unfortunately financially support all these lazy, liberal wastes of human life.
Heh, you are old enough to have been in the military when the National Guard entered Kent State University campus. THAT incident actually created a conscience within the military brass and the politicians who control the military. Of course, that is NOT discussed with the foot soldiers. They are just told what to do.
Also, for your information, the US Military WILL follow the orders of the CinC. Period. YOU can disobey his orders. BUT, you will pay the price. DEARLY. Only a moron would believe that the US military would do whatever they want as they do in the Banana Republics.
Finally, I bet I pay way more federal taxes than you have ever paid in your life.
I see that you are following Mr. Westano's advice of debating instead of insulting.
Sniff, do I smell hypocrisy?
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It seems to me that these "American Patriots" do NOT believe in the system they so rabidly defend.
(http://www.picgifs.com/clip-art/entertainment/bingo/clip-art-bingo-228489.jpg)
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Interesting look into how a war might play out:
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/10/05/us-russia-vladimir-putin-syria-ukraine-american-military-plans/73147344/
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Interesting look into how a war might play out:
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/10/05/us-russia-vladimir-putin-syria-ukraine-american-military-plans/73147344/
It would never be a one on one war...
The US would drang in it's allies...
The Russians would drang in China...
Basically neither side is strong enough to invade the other country and occupy land...
With that being said.. I think the average american.. " Excluding Americans raised on farms.."
Could not deal with as many hardships as the average Russian or Chinese...
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.... the US Military represents the US people and while they are a tool of politicians, they are not beholden to the whims of some fanatical Socialist like Obama. As a vet, I can say this with certainty, Obama does not have any support or backing from the US military or veterans.
Hmm. Wonder what he would have said about that Socialist Cripple, Roosevelt? He certainly seemed to have the backing of his people.
Just because someone is on the other side of the political isle does not mean that they do not love their country and are not good people. Reminds me of the joke ..... never mind.
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Darth, given their nuclear capabilities I do not see them going head to head. Given that China makes so much from USA trade, that would not happen, at least yet.
What is more likely is Russia deciding to test NATO on Article 5. I remain in the belief that NATO would fold on the Baltics.
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Wars are no longer fought toe to toe...
Their is to many people..
Wars will always turn in to guerilla warfare.. Once they hit the ground..
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Hmm. Wonder what he would have said about that Socialist Cripple, Roosevelt? He certainly seemed to have the backing of his people.
Just because someone is on the other side of the political isle does not mean that they do not love their country and are not good people. Reminds me of the joke ..... never mind.
Yeah, that guy is in an island all by himself. ;)
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In a conventional war, Russia wouldn't stand a chance. A lot of people seem to think the Russian military is the same as the old Soviet one. Their current military is a joke. They'd have their hands full with somebody like Poland, never mind the US. It's laughable how one sided it would be.
If you want to talk nuclear, well that's a whole other ball game and nobody wins.
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I saw this article while surfing the web
RUSSIA: US MAY HAVE DELUSION OF WINNING WAR WITH RUSSIA
MOSCOW (AP)
read the article here
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_US?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-30-09-54-04
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I saw this article while surfing the web
RUSSIA: US MAY HAVE DELUSION OF WINNING WAR WITH RUSSIA
MOSCOW (AP)
read the article here
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_US?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-30-09-54-04 (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_US?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-30-09-54-04)
The guy is fishing. ;)
The US would never get into a war with Russia in Russia. That is absolutely crazy. The logistics involved are absolutely mind-boggling. The only chance the US had to attack Russia and win was in 1945. That opportunity is long gone.
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The guy is fishing. ;)
The US would never get into a war with Russia in Russia. That is absolutely crazy. The logistics involved are absolutely mind-boggling. The only chance the US had to attack Russia and win was in 1945. That opportunity is long gone.
I posted the article to start a conversation, but I agree.
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This is a toss of a coin for the "RUSSIAN NUT CASE OF THE DAY" thread--- or here as one guys vision of what a "war" could look like !
Former Russian Health Chief Suggests U.S. Plotting Zika Attack
MOSCOW -- An outspoken former chief Russian sanitary inspector has suggested that the United States could be infecting mosquitos with the Zika virus in the Black Sea area as a form of biological warfare against Russia.
http://www.rferl.org/content/former-russian-health-chief-suggests-us-plotting-zika-attack/27555365.html
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Another vatnik trying for his 15 minutes of fame! :rolleyes:
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Six Ways the US Can Defeat Putin and Bolster Ukraine
1) Increased economic sanctions against Russia:
2) A more robust NATO posture in Central and Eastern Europe
3) Expanded Military Assistance to Ukraine:
4) Reinforced Public Diplomacy/Information Warfare:
5) Ukraine’s Economic Integration into the West:
6) Supporting Ukraine’s Euro-Atlantic Integration:
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/six-ways-the-us-can-defeat-putin-and-bolster-ukraine
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Six Ways the US Can Defeat Putin and Bolster Ukraine
1) Increased economic sanctions against Russia:
2) A more robust NATO posture in Central and Eastern Europe
3) Expanded Military Assistance to Ukraine:
4) Reinforced Public Diplomacy/Information Warfare:
5) Ukraine’s Economic Integration into the West:
6) Supporting Ukraine’s Euro-Atlantic Integration:
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/six-ways-the-us-can-defeat-putin-and-bolster-ukraine
1) Increased economic sanctions against Russia:
Blockade RU? yeah try.
2) A more robust NATO posture in Central and Eastern Europe
NATO consists of more than just the US. There are limits.
3) Expanded Military Assistance to Ukraine:
And give guns to whom?.. This is exactly the reason the US and other countries are not giving UA offensive weapons.. aside from getting paid for them.
4) Reinforced Public Diplomacy/Information Warfare:
ok... that's a bit vague.
5) Ukraine’s Economic Integration into the West:
No one wants to set an economic foundation or guarantees for the UA economy. The risks are simply too high.
6) Supporting Ukraine’s Euro-Atlantic Integration:
another vague concept.
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Ukraine is an European issue, and Europe should take the lead. And it seems Europe will not do more.
Also, any escalation in Ukraine such as providing arms will be outdone by Russia.
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Ukraine is an European issue, and Europe should take the lead. And it seems Europe will not do more.
Also, any escalation in Ukraine such as providing arms will be outdone by Russia.
Gator,
I'm not sure of that any more. I think Russia has provided it's mercenaries with as much weaponry that Russia feels comfortable with. I don't think an all-out invasion is on the table any more, either. So arming Ukraine - or stationing NATO forces within Ukraine would be met with a lot of saber rattling, but I doubt that Russia would be 'all in' in such a scenario.
Russia has succeeded in selling the 'Big Lie' to much of its populace. But the rest of the world is now at a point where nothing Russia says is believable. That makes everything Ukraine says have a twisted logic sense of believability. I see some foreign service moves on the part of Europe and the US in the next year that will crank up the ability of Ukraine to stave off Russia's heavy handed interference.
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Jone, I hope that you are correct. The large Russian bases that have been constructed recently along the border with Ukraine make me nervous.
The good news is that Russia is bleeding financially, and the opposition appears to be slowly emerging from a two-year hibernation. That in turn has made Putin very nervous. The placement by the security organs of Sergei Ivanov into a prominent role as the informal, but very obvious, #2 position in the Kremlin also makes Putin nervous. The two have a long history, but Ivanov is there in spite of Putin's wishes, not with his permission. In that regard, hopefully adventurism will be limited for awhile.
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Gator,
I'm not sure of that any more........
The lame duck Obama will not do more because Asia, not Russia nor the Middle East, is his top priority. In this rare instance, I agree with Obama. Who knows, in the long term Russia and the US may be on the same side with regard to China. Meanwhile, let free trade keep everyone so interconnected that hostilities are ill advised.
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One of the great speculations, early on, in the crisis, was that Russia was trying to destabilize Ukraine and push it towards anarchy. Then, with the military presence already in place, Russia could waltz in and pick up the pieces.
Well, that hasn't happened. There may be a lot of continued disatisfaction with the current government, but the organs of government are operating and there are fewer pro-Russian dissenters these days. In essence, Russia has failed at creating anarchy. Two years after the annexation of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine is far better off than those sad sacks who live in Krim. No bridge. No tourism. And for a great percentage of people, no electricity. In Eastern Ukraine, the occupied areas have no economy and no subsidiaries from Russia. The only way to keep the interest up is to lob shells at the UA Army and claim that the Donbass is being attacked.
Ultimately, the siutation becomes a longterm stalemate. But with every passing day, more tanks are being produced in Ukraine. The police and armed forces are becoming more unified. And the people are more resolved to withstand the advances from the bully next door.
I'd like to say that Ukraine has created a better government. But, to date, that hasn't happened. The framework is there, but there is no roof or siding on the construction. We'll see.
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I'll say this, there's a strong sense and display of Ukrainian nationalism here in Kharkiv much the same as it was in October. Fwiw...
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Jone,
My sympathies rest with Ukraine. If they can deal with corruption, Europe may ante up more aid. If not, why should the West bother when corruption persists even after emerging from a revolution, stalemating the Russian proxies, starting government initiatives? And what is the security threat to the US vs. other conflicts? And what happened to the past aid and loans given by the West to Ukraine?
I am like Mendy and hope Ukraine's independence can survive. The mere fact they haven't collapsed gives hope.
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Jone, I hope that you are correct. The large Russian bases that have been constructed recently along the border with Ukraine make me nervous.
No guarantee yet that Putin will not use those troops-- very large recent troop and tank movements into Ukraine plus along the border itself.Putin is a loose cannon-nothing can be ruled out yet.
What is certain- Ukrainian troops are far better organised and at least now have basic equipment-- and the benefit of a major effort of sophisticated training from the western nations. Morale is good-- in great contrast to the Russian invaders who find themselves in Ukraine unwillingly.In some cases regular Russian troops have mutinied.
The one( well-several actually!!) think needed by Ukrainian military is some of the clever weapons( defensive weapons!!) that exist in the west-that would guarantee they could get rid of the Russians in the east
The good news is that Russia is bleeding financially, and the opposition appears to be slowly emerging from a two-year hibernation. That in turn has made Putin very nervous. The placement by the security organs of Sergei Ivanov into a prominent role as the informal, but very obvious, #2 position in the Kremlin also makes Putin nervous. The two have a long history, but Ivanov is there in spite of Putin's wishes, not with his permission. In that regard, hopefully adventurism will be limited for awhile.
The title of the the thread tells a story-- the sanctions equal an economic war that Obama chose to apply pressure on Russia. They were never going to be a quick solution and about 2 years was always thought to be when they would really start to bite.Putin has been doing his best to get rid of any serious opposition at higher levels-- and crush lower level dissent.
There is no doubt that the Russian internal issue is approaching that knife-edge .
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Jone,
My sympathies rest with Ukraine. If they can deal with corruption, Europe may ante up more aid. If not, why should the West bother when corruption persists even after emerging from a revolution, stalemating the Russian proxies, starting government initiatives? And what is the security threat to the US vs. other conflicts? And what happened to the past aid and loans given by the West to Ukraine?
I am like Mendy and hope Ukraine's independence can survive. The mere fact they haven't collapsed gives hope.
Past aid? Down the Yanukovytch & Co plughole.
Ukraine is the frontline of putting Russia in it's place- the west should be doing everything possible to help them remove Russia from Ukrainian sovereign territory.
As Jone said above-- and you mention also- Ukraine have a massive fight to end corruption. I do not see the current crisis in Kyiv as a bad thing--it is a point that had to be reached at some stage ie-- when new values need to remove the old corruption from the system.
Not wishing to sound like I am trying to sugarcoat my optimism too much-but- this is a typical battle taking place in Ukraine now. The very fact that it is being discussed,written-exposed if you like-is a measure of some progress being made.
As is being said in many places-- the new broom MUST win these battles-the government MUST put in place the legislative practices to support the new directions.
Small minded self interest MUST be overcome.
Scattered throughout the 'system" in Ukraine are good people-- good people that can see how it can be done. They need as much support as is possible -in every way.(eg writing,talking etc!)
The short answer--recognising you have a problem is the first step. When people are free to speak out-- and write how they see it plus journalists able to write about it-that is a basis of a democratic process.
It will not take long for the larger population to get hold of all this now-- and without an overiding dominating force intervening-that will be the basis of a real democracy being enabled.
We all need to remember that Ukraine is coming from a long way back on many basic issues and it will take time to get the balance "right". There are a lot of people in the system that understand what is needed-- and they are badly needed in the battle to overcome the past values-or should I say-lack of values-morality if you like.
The current crisis being enacted in Kyiv is a major intersection in that road.
I have posted many links here on forum( & tried to post many more!) that details the struggle Ukraine is facing now.I am of the opinion that winning the internal struggle( ie to achieve a fully functioning democracy with decent laws and enforcement) will enable Ukraine to win over it's external invader.
The link below is an illustration of the frustration of Ukrainians in trying to move forward.
Corruption threatens state gas producer
My team and I have made UkrGasVydobuvannya into the model of reforms, a case of best management practices being swiftly implemented in a legacy Soviet-era organization where inefficiency is multiplied by corruption.
As an ex-McKinsey & Company consultant with almost eight years of experience of transforming private and public institutions and with a master's degree in public policy from Harvard Kennedy School, I am leading the complete transformation of the state gas producer into a modern, efficient company. We are also cleaning up the corruption ingrained in the company's people, processes and culture.
I have good and bad news about the reforms in Ukraine, based on my experience so far.
http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/prokhorenko-corruption-threatens-state-gas-producer-410226.html
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The link below is an illustration of the frustration of Ukrainians in trying to move forward.
Corruption threatens state gas producer
http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/prokhorenko-corruption-threatens-state-gas-producer-410226.html
Enlightening, encouraging, and full of hope - and depressingly similar to so many stories of corruption so entrenched that even the offices (and officers) charged with reform are still thumbing their noses at their masters (the people of Ukraine) while they continue to stuff themselves with their ill-gotten gains.
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Back to the future!
WEST MUST AGAIN SHIFT FROM CONTAINING RUSSIA'S LEADERS TO DEFEATING THEM
Just as was the case at the beginning of the 1980s, the United States must shift from a policy of containing Moscow, which the Kremlin viewed then and views now as a sign of weakness, to one designed to bring victory over it, according to St. Antony’s College historian Vladimir Pastukhov.
In a comment to VOA’s Russian Service, he argues that neither Russia nor the US currently has a clear understanding of its strategic goals in the rapidly changing world of today and that both have fallen back on approaches from the Cold War that ultimately proved to be failures.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/06/13/west-must-again-shift-from-containing-russias-leaders-to-defeating-them-pastukhov-says/
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Since this thread started it has become clearer what Russia is doing -- and is in fact conducting a "war".
The potential for this news to have a direct affect on even forum members here is real enough.
Russian parliament backs investigation into U.S. media
The Russian lower house of parliament, the State Duma, has approved a proposal to launch an investigation into U.S. media organizations that operate in Russia, it said in a statement posted on its web site late on Friday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-usa-press-idUSKBN16P0CA
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The premise of this article is most probably correct on many points. Helping Trump win was a by product of the intent .
It is important in assessing all of this to understand it was a moving stage -- and aims would have changed with perceived opportunity.
Of note -- that does not explain how the circumstances of opportunity did not change for the Russians as they sought to exploit the Trump connections--- and in due course that will become the significant investigation.
QUOTE
"If we already know the answers to the first two key questions, the RussiaGate hearings should close down. Its front-burner issue – Russian-Trump coordination -- is peripheral and even silly: What would Russian cyber warriors need from the Trump amateurs? "
Hackers In Epaulets: A Challenge To The Consensus on Russian Interference in the 2016 Election?
To connect the dots on Russia’s role in the 2016 presidential election (RussiaGate), we must begin with the understanding that Russia is a criminal enterprise disguised as a state. Sitting at the top of the “power vertical,” Putin has accumulated vast personal wealth and power; political murders remain unresolved; and territories are run by criminal clans. Duty-bound KGB officers have been replaced by shadowy figures who deal in compromising material, often for personal financial gain, and shuttle between private and state activities. Russia’s vaunted cyber warfare is carried out by independent-contractor operator/criminals who often wear the uniform of the Federal Security Service (FSB), foreign intelligence (SVR), or defense ministry (GRU). A new term has entered the vocabulary: hackers in epaulets.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2017/03/27/hackers-in-epaulets-a-challenge-to-the-consensus-on-russian-interference-in-the-2016-election/2/#370945071c2f