What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[sleepycat]

Post# 1419 - maybe 20 seconds to type up.

Post# 1421 - looks like that's at least 5-7 minutes work looking up past quotes & typing a response...

Guess who has too much time on his hands?

[southernX]

sleepy cat,

it is far easier to just employ the ignore button with mr gwho , 

he is unfortunatly one of those people from his country who create a negative image the rest of the world stereotypes in the negative,

fortunatly he is in the minority in his own country , pretty sure he is actually related to andrew fi lol

SX

[fathertime]

but its purpose no matter how illegal or rigged is to give legitimacy to putins call for them to have a bigger say in the outcome &to give some basis if he wishes to put troops there to protect them and help annexx them at a later date ,

 

yes...i would say this is a possiblity if things don't stack up to Russia's liking.

any referendum is illegal anyway ,
 

FT
 

the thing is , at a guess 60% of the population in ukraine would have some experience of life in soviet times , as humans do we often  look back on the past with rose coloured glasses , these people know life wasnt that fantastic, under soviet rule l, but it was stable !!!  the gov did provide for them & they where protected , a lifetime of being washed with'' the west & america is bad '' added into the recipe ,combine alittle of their old soviet nostalgia with a huge dollop of russian tv propoganda , put some real live militia /self defence forces on the ground to take over cities , pay of local police etc ..   this population or at least a reasonable amount of them over time with this reality going on around them , actually start to believe in it ,
then with events like oddessa and mariupol it becomes real 

Well if the people are comfy living under the Soviets then we shouldn't be telling them that they can't!  It may be propaganda they are hearing, and they may genuinely feel they have a better future by being closer to Russia.  There appears to be quite a divide within the country.  Perhaps that can change, although the E. Ukrainians would have to be convinced, not me or people here.


 Although it is too early to tell if these are the only realistic options but IF the were, what would be best for Ukraine..?
1.living in a hopelessly divided country where there is constant bloodshed among competing groups with respective groups backed by the USA and Russia.
2 creating autonomous republics where parts of Ukraine can get cozy with Russia if that is what they want.
3.  Divide Ukraine in two
4.  Russia annexing eastern parts of Ukraine


IF they wind up being the options on the table, I would support options 2 and 3.


 

 

 

 

they are there alright , and as you can see from the above there doing a great job for mr putin

 

SX

SX I feel this point was unfair...this point was in response to a partial quote of mine...although if you had included the second half of the quote you would see that by only including part of my quote, it changed the meaning of what I said. 


Fathertime! 

[JayH]

yes...i would say this is a possiblity if things don't stack up to Russia's liking.



Well if the people are comfy living under the Soviets then we shouldn't be telling them that they can't!  It may be propaganda they are hearing, and they may genuinely feel they have a better future by being closer to Russia. There appears to be quite a divide within the country.  Perhaps that can change, although the E. Ukrainians would have to be convinced, not me or people here.


 Although it is too early to tell if these are the only realistic options but IF the were, what would be best for Ukraine..?
1.living in a hopelessly divided country where there is constant bloodshed among competing groups with respective groups backed by the USA and Russia.
2 creating autonomous republics where parts of Ukraine can get cozy with Russia if that is what they want.
3.  Divide Ukraine in two
4. Russia annexing eastern parts of Ukraine


IF they wind up being the options on the table, I would support options 2 and 3.

The fact that you even throw this up shows how nieve you are. Ukrainians DO NOT WANT TO DIVIDE the country.
Th3e fact that there are some self interested groups is not unusual in any country. There is no reason that  a small minority should be the prevailing voice-- or even a marjority in an area. You do not simply secede from a country. If you look at Ukrainian  constitution--is it the right for ALL Uktaine to decide changes like that. That also applies to the Crimea btw.
I will repeat it--if you asked manmy people in then east a series of questions  about situation-- it would illustrate many incorrect notions-- so based on that that look at alternatives.
The polls have shown all along-- and recently--that large numbers in the east want a united Ukraine.

[fathertime]

The fact that you even throw this up shows how nieve you are. Ukrainians DO NOT WANT TO DIVIDE the country.
Th3e fact that there are some self interested groups is not unusual in any country. There is no reason that  a small minority should be the prevailing voice-- or even a marjority in an area. You do not simply secede from a country. If you look at Ukrainian  constitution--is it the right for ALL Uktaine to decide changes like that. That also applies to the Crimea btw.
I will repeat it--if you asked manmy people in then east a series of questions  about situation-- it would illustrate many incorrect notions-- so based on that that look at alternatives.
The polls have shown all along-- and recently--that large numbers in the east want a united Ukraine.

All rise, the Honorable Judge ‘Jay’ hath entered the thread. Kneel now, and speak not. His words are gospel. 
 
No Jay, you have been the naive one…with your constant shilling and the maudlin “Glory to Ukraine” bologna…whether you like it or not or choose to recognize it, there is more than one side to the story…you should really read up a little more…these sort of options are going to be on the table at some point. 


Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

sleepy cat,

it is far easier to just employ the ignore button with mr gwho , 

he is unfortunatly one of those people from his country who create a negative image the rest of the world stereotypes in the negative, 

fortunatly he is in the minority in his own country , pretty sure he is actually related to andrew fi lol

SX

 

Is English really your first language, sx? 

[LiveFromUkraine]

I know your games

Maxx, isn't funny how LT will call people names all over this forum and then accuse you of such.  That is the type of people you are debating with.

[GQBlues]

The fact that you even throw this up shows how nieveyou are....

Hhhmm ...lol! Do you want to buy another vowel?  Now I know why you cut/paste articles. Is English your first language too like sx?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Hhhmm ...lol! Do you want to buy another vowel?  Now I know why you cut/paste articles. Is English your first language too like sx?

I thought he was calling FT his niece.   

[LiveFromUkraine]

All rise, the Honorable Judge ‘Jay’ hath entered the thread. Kneel now, and speak not. His words are gospel. 
 
No Jay, you have been the naive one…with your constant shilling and the maudlin “Glory to Ukraine” bologna…whether you like it or not or choose to recognize it, there is more than one side to the story…you should really read up a little more…these sort of options are going to be on the table at some point. 


Fathertime!

FT, for the most part, I think most Ukrainians don't want the country split between Russia and EU.  There are groups that have different opinions on where the country should head, but I believe majority still wants Ukraine as a whole.


Like I said previously, most of the people I met while I lived there would say they are Russians.  That never meant they wanted to live under Russian rule.  They just identified with being Russian at their core.


The numbskulls here didn't understand the ramification of what happened in Kiev and how it would spiral out of control.  They would rather put blame on Putin while ignoring the fact that laws were broken in Kiev and those actions sent the country into chaos. 

[GQBlues]

FT, for the most part, I think most Ukrainians don't want the country split between Russia and EU.  There are groups that have different opinions on where the country should head, but I believe majority still wants Ukraine as a whole.


Like I said previously, most of the people I met while I lived there would say they are Russians.  That never meant they wanted to live under Russian rule.  They just identified with being Russian at their core....

I agree with this. The impact of the coup have left a lot of Ukrainians (ethnic Russians) with no choice but react to the manner they're doing now. Desperate times, desperate measure. Thanks USA / EU!

Just as bad is the fact the rest of Ukraine's population is being played by the illegitimate government at the same time. Sad time for these folks.

[LiveFromUkraine]

You guys actually travel halfway around the world so you can *pick from a catalog* to date? What a whopper! Isn't that about as low as anyone can get?

I can't tell you how many times I have seen men picking women out of catalogs while having dinner\lunch.  One guy in Kiev was so big I was amazed he could fit in one chair. 


I thought it was standard procedures with agencies. 


"Ah yeah, I would like to start off this evening with the brunette and for the main course go with the blonde with double d's.  For desert,  hhmmm...  maybe I will splurge with something spicy and get the redhead. "

[southernX]

SX I feel this point was unfair...this point was in response to a partial quote of mine...although if you had included the second half of the quote you would see that by only including part of my quote, it changed the meaning of what I said. 
Fathertime! 

FT , fair point , ill concede it was my error , 

slowly you are coming around though lol

id agree with LFU ,that from all available independent evidence  most in ukraine do not want to divide the country
this is being driven by vested interests

SX

[JayH]

It is absurd to place any credence on any of the 'referendums"


Quoting-
Donetsk and Luhansk media reported that voting actually takes place under the barrel of the machine. Since each site are armed terrorists. In this case, the international community does not recognize extremist referendums in Eastern Ukraine. In particular,  the U.S. has already said they would not recognize the vote . And  the head of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly called psevdoreferendumy Donbas absurd . Along with this, the Donbas held  a referendum on unification of Luhansk and Donetsk region of Dnipropetrovsk . It was also reported that the Donbas most people just vote for the union from Dnipropetrovsk and ignore the extremists
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/sumnivniy-referendum-shtovhaye-donbas-na-shlyah-krimu-el-pais-349024.html

[sleepycat]

Is English really your first language, sx? 

Oh no. The grammar police is here. RUN!!!
 

[lordtiberius]

The observers and journalists reject the legitimacy this referendum.  Their biggest complaint is that to count these votes, they had to count one per second.  Or that the results had more than eligible voters. Or that they are on Rinat Akmetov's payroll.

[stilllooking]

 Although it is too early to tell if these are the only realistic options but IF the were, what would be best for Ukraine..?
1.living in a hopelessly divided country where there is constant bloodshed among competing groups with respective groups backed by the USA and Russia.
2 creating autonomous republics where parts of Ukraine can get cozy with Russia if that is what they want.
3.  Divide Ukraine in two
4.  Russia annexing eastern parts of Ukraine


IF they wind up being the options on the table, I would support options 2 and 3.
 

To be able to choose correctly, you have to look into point number 1 and check why it is the case that there is so much division. One can't help get the feeling the reason for the split is due to propaganda.

Surely the best option would be a united Ukraine free from interference and pressure from its neighbours? Those in western Ukraine clearly see the benefits of having closer ties to the west, as they see their neighbouring countries who have done so prosper economically and have less corruption. I have never heard anyone in the West say closer ties to the west means that they can no longer do business with the Russians.

I can fully understand why those in the East 'think' or 'believe' that closer ties to the West means no more trade with Russia, as every time Ukraine attempts to move closer to the west Russia cancels factory orders, threatens about the gas supplies etc. It is the Russians who seem to be saying you can either be closer to the West or you can do business with us, which leaves those in the East no option but to choose to stay away from closer ties to the West.

Hence division is created.

If the propaganda could stop and Russia stops making all the threats re orders (and thus jobs and income) should Ukraine move closer to the west, I sincerely doubt the country would be as divided or live in a constant bloodshed. Option 1 would be a united country instead of a divided country with bloodshed.

[lordtiberius]

Bombing in Nikolaev, at least 5 injured.

[Anotherkiwi]

Although Putin pretended to ask pro Russians to delay the vote, a polling station was set up in Moscow to help Ukrainians get in their vote. That's very nice of Putin to help out in any way he can. I'm sure he'll help count the votes too.

I managed to get a laugh out of the TV news tonight, a rarity when referring to Ukraine at the moment.  There was a clip from the BBC report on the referendum, and it showed someone in Donetsk (you couldn't see their face) merrily ticking the "Yes" box for the option to secede - on at least six voting forms before the camera panned away. 

All this after having shots fired over the heads and around the feet of those waiting in the queue - by what was described as an Army unit at one polling station, and separatists at another.  "Of COURSE, Mr Observer, our referendum vote was free and fair!  We didn't need to shoot anyone at all to get the rest of them to vote - many times!"

[lordtiberius]

What is going in Eastern Ukraine is terrorism. Bandits occupy the buildings of official authority using vandals, vagrants and paid mobs to wrap these shiny turds in the trappings of democracy.  Anyone who disagrees with these mobsters gets beaten up.  Those are the facts on the ground reported by journalists of every stripe and color.  You can quibble, equivocate, or conflate all you want in order to confuse or distract others, but you do not have a grasp of the facts.

[fathertime]

FT , fair point , ill concede it was my error , 

slowly you are coming around though lol

id agree with LFU ,that from all available independent evidence  most in ukraine do not want to divide the country
this is being driven by vested interests

SX

Hey SX,


I put dividing Ukraine into 2 as ONE of the potential options...at this time it appears to be unacceptable...if violence were to escalate and the new Ukraine govt later this month were to disallow more autonomy for those regions, the outcome of a divided Ukraine becomes a possibility....or getting annexed by Russia...  That is one reason I hope the new leadership grants these regions more autonomy as it appears they desire...if they don't i believe the consequences will be long lasting and bloody.


I think there is a reasonable chance the new government WILL grant the regions the autonomy they seem to want and that has a chance to diffuse a lot of what is going on.  Although if the USA tries to financially pressure the new leadership NOT to make concessions, and they choose not to, then it will be messy....of course it goes without saying that this is all conjecture and my opinion.


Fathertime!   

[stilllooking]

Hey SX,


I put dividing Ukraine into 2 as ONE of the potential options...at this time it appears to be unacceptable...if violence were to escalate and the new Ukraine govt later this month were to disallow more autonomy for those regions, the outcome of a divided Ukraine becomes a possibility....or getting annexed by Russia...  That is one reason I hope the new leadership grants these regions more autonomy as it appears they desire...if they don't i believe the consequences will be long lasting and bloody.


I think there is a reasonable chance the new government WILL grant the regions the autonomy they seem to want and that has a chance to diffuse a lot of what is going on.  Although if the USA tries to financially pressure the new leadership NOT to make concessions, and they choose not to, then it will be messy....of course it goes without saying that this is all conjecture and my opinion.


Fathertime!

Wishful thinking, its already too late for that. The separatists have already rolled out the red carpet for Putin and asked to be made part of Russia.

Care to rethink your ideas?

Edited to ask: Also convenient that a few days after it has been reported that Russia has troops with UN peacekeeping colors ready at the border the separatists have not asked for Russian military intervention, but that a peacekeeping force may be in order.... Imagine the confusion when russia sends those troops into Donetsk...

[BillyB]

I hope the new leadership grants these regions more autonomy as it appears they desire...if they don't i believe the consequences will be long lasting and bloody.

The intern government from the very beginning has already offered all areas of Ukraine more autonomy but pro Russians want much more so that they can have Russia annex them.


In other news, Russia is collecting signatures in Moldova for guess what? Maybe Russia can send high level authorities to America too to get some signatures and promote secession? Next Presidential election Putin could set up some polling stations in Moscow and help us elect our next President. I think Obama will get a third term with Putin's help.


http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pm-warns-moldova-border-incident-144143096.html

[fathertime]

Wishful thinking, its already too late for that. The separatists have already rolled out the red carpet for Putin and asked to be made part of Russia.

Care to rethink your ideas?

What in particular is there to rethink?  I see the separatists would like for Russia to annex them, but Russia has not indicated they are interested in another annex at this time. They obviously have been given the pretext, nevertheless they don't appear too interested in occupying.

Personally I don't believe the vote is legitimate, but it might serve a symbolic purpose as it appears to demonstrate a significant % of the population in these regions don't feel represented and want drastic change.  A lot of what is read into the outcome will depend on just what % of the Ukrainians are truly up in arms. Some say it is actually very few.  I think it is a significant %.

Fatherime!

[fathertime]

Next Presidential election Putin could set up some polling stations in Moscow and help us elect our next President. I think Obama will get a third term with Putin's help.

Ha! That was a good one. I can imagine Putin campaigning for Obama
Fathertime!