A Sad Farwell to Russia

[LiveFromUkraine]

haha I love memes.  Here is one for ya Muzh.  Outspend Russia, eh?

[Muzh]

It is obvious you are NOT a well read person.

[fathertime]

Oh, like you were with MissA?
 
Peaches.
 
Now I'm old and a yeller. Heh
 
I should mention that the majority of my staff are really sad to see me go. They call me their sunshine. What do they call you at work?
 
 
Oh I see. YOU are the new look.  My, how self-important. 
 
Oops, sorry. For a second I thought you were serious. LMAO
 
However, the point of our discussion is the pending invasion of Ukraine by Russia and what does the rest of the world are planning to do. In addition, the Russian supporters agreeing that Ukraine is a mistake and should go back to serving their Russian masters.
 
You think we can discuss that?

Hey Sunshine!
I notice a few comments that make no sense here, but I'm willing to let that stand as i find them pretty much meaningless/harmless. 


I would be delighted to discuss the highlighted part of your post.  If there is some new fodder put out there about the subject I'm sure we can have a discussion and exchange viewpoints...


Fathertime! 

[LiveFromUkraine]

It is obvious you are NOT a well read person.

haha Here is another for ya.

[Dewed]

Don't you folks ever tire of the bickering? Why not go outside and find someone nice to bicker with?

[Muzh]

Didn't you see pretty boy's post? Some of us curmudgeons need to be pushed back. And then his date is more than happy to oblige.
 
They are just like the person they idolize: Putler.
 
They are going to give their version and the rest be damned.
 
Either by passive-aggressive means or just plain ridicule.
 
Heh

[GQBlues]

...The US is NOT up to their old tricks again.The US has a NEW set of tricks. Same end result....

Pretty much sums it up. e.g. The New World Order.

I didn't realize that 'Thesis, Anti-thesis, Synthesis' triad-principle is so appropriate in this modern political climate. It's mind-boggling. It was never a coincidence so many regional *uprisings* and government over-throw is the new norm these days.

So both Shell Oil and Chevron had been happily engaged in their initially drilling all these time in Ukraine. If the initial survey prove to be on the money, from drilling to full production takes a relatively small amount of time.

...The process of bringing a well to completion is generally short-lived, taking only 70 to 100 days for a single well, after which the well can be in production for 20 to 40 years. The process for a single horizontal well typically includes four to eight weeks to prepare the site for drilling, four or five weeks of rig work, including casing and cementing and moving all associated auxiliary equipment off the well site before fracturing operations commence, and two to five days for the entire multi-stage fracturing operation.

Once completed, the production site is reduced to about the size of a two-car garage. The remainder of the site is restored to its original condition and the environmental benefits, such as reduced air and greenhouse gas emissions, last for decades. Local impacts, such as noise, dust, and land disturbance, are largely confined to the initial phase of development....

- See more at: http://www.energyfromshale.org/hydraulic-fracturing/shale-natural-gas#sthash.VMwphpF8.dpuf

Amazing technological advancement. It's unfortunate that such beneficial leap in technology had to be politicized to advance respective political interest instead.

Ukraine:

I can understand what that potential benefit is for the USA. A very solvent, even prosperous EU, is tantamount to our own economic survivability.

I can understand the benefit this has to the EU. They've been mired a prolonged economic recession, and with that wonderful social system they have, they need immediate urgent care. So having a new (potential) partner to help ease their economic viability is undeniably vital - AND - thereby circumventing having to deal with Russia to boot.

I can also understand how this can be a real threat to Russia. If Ukraine/Romania/Poland can supply the European market, Russia loses any 'political leverage' in the area and not least of which, a major loss in their annual revenue. To make matters even worst, it had to be in Ukraine.

So now try to envision going back last year. From the exploratory work, to signing deals, to initiating the drilling operation. Now, were back to November 2013...

Go ahead. Re-write history if anyone dares.

(Can someone please tell ML it's safe to come out now)

[fathertime]

Didn't you see pretty boy's post? Some of us curmudgeons need to be pushed back. And then his date is more than happy to oblige.
 
They are just like the person they idolize: Putler.
 
They are going to give their version and the rest be damned.
 
Either by passive-aggressive means or just plain ridicule.
 
Heh

Thanks, I didn't know you thought I was 'Pretty'.


I can't believe I'm reading that you are whining about 'ridicule'...of all people.   


Careful guys, give an opinion contrary to muzh's and you are to be LABELED 'passive aggressive'....I can live with that label, coming from him! 


Fathetime! 

[Dewed]

I'm all for debate & discussion, but not everyone will agree with your perspective. Rather than revert to insults and name calling, give them the best evidence you have and walk away. No one will take the time to absorb the message you are trying to send while also having to deflect ridicule. The prettiest truth wrapped in a disgusting package will never be believed. it's just human nature.

[Muzh]

Pretty much sums it up. e.g. The New World Order.

I can understand the benefit this has to the EU. They've been mired a prolonged economic recession, and with that wonderful social system they have, they need immediate urgent care. So having a new (potential) partner to help ease their economic viability is undeniably vital - AND - thereby circumventing having to deal with Russia to boot.

I can also understand how this can be a real threat to Russia. If Ukraine/Romania/Poland can supply the European market, Russia loses any 'political leverage' in the area and not least of which, a major loss in their annual revenue. To make matters even worst, it had to be in Ukraine.

So now try to envision going back last year. From the exploratory work, to signing deals, to initiating the drilling operation. Now, were back to November 2013...

Go ahead. Re-write history if anyone dares.

(Can someone please tell ML it's safe to come out now)

Give this man a CI-gar.

[Muzh]

I'm all for debate & discussion, but not everyone will agree with your perspective. Rather than revert to insults and name calling, give them the best evidence you have and walk away. No one will take the time to absorb the message you are trying to send while also having to deflect ridicule. The prettiest truth wrapped in a disgusting package will never be believed. it's just human nature.

Heh. It has nothing to do with debate and discussion with this dude.
 
GQ gets it. In more ways than what you think.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Didn't you see pretty boy's post? Some of us curmudgeons need to be pushed back. And then his date is more than happy to oblige.
 
They are just like the person they idolize: Putler.
 
They are going to give their version and the rest be damned.
 
Either by passive-aggressive means or just plain ridicule.
 
Heh

Sounds like a confession.  Many of us were having discussions without getting personal.  You, on the other hand, came in and started calling names while trying to ridicule others for not accepting your "facts".


Now you're crying.  Typical.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Heh. It has nothing to do with debate and discussion with this dude.
 
GQ gets it. In more ways than what you think.

Love stories always bring a tear to my eye.  I love a good bromance.

[fathertime]

Sounds like a confession.  Many of us were having discussions without getting personal.  You, on the other hand, came in and started calling names while trying to ridicule others for not accepting your "facts".


Now you're crying.  Typical.

I gotta admit, Muzh is doing quite a bit of crying lately....all he would have to do is present his case like others have....NOBODY is just going to accept a blanket statement without at least hearing some of the logic behind it. 
Having a viewpoint doesn't have to be a personal battle, although that is the way Muzh takes it...he would do great in a dictatorship so long as he was the boss...which he is not here. 


Fathertime! 

[jone]

Give this man a CI-gar.

Exactly my thoughts.  Although he didn't wrap it up in as nice a package last night.  He just referenced the article in the Oil News.  I've been stating that Fracking was the biggest threat to the Russian economy for the past two weeks.

To LFU, I am curious to know, although I may subscribe to the theory that the ouster of Yanu did not meet all facets of the constitutional set up (I'm not convinced that the whole Rada could get that wrong - that's all they do!)  what in your mind would make the government legitimate other than the now scheduled elections for May 25th, which the Chocolate King is the overwhelming favorite to win?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Exactly my thoughts.  Although he didn't wrap it up in as nice a package last night.  He just referenced the article in the Oil News.  I've been stating that Fracking was the biggest threat to the Russian economy for the past two weeks.

To LFU, I am curious to know, although I may subscribe to the theory that the ouster of Yanu did not meet all facets of the constitutional set up (I'm not convinced that the whole Rada could get that wrong - that's all they do!)  what in your mind would make the government legitimate other than the now scheduled elections for May 25th, which the Chocolate King is the overwhelming favorite to win?

My opinion?  Well, in order to move forward I would say the only way would be elections.  The past is the past and dwelling on it won't really help Ukraine which is why moving forward with new elections is important.   They need some type of stability now and hopefully new elections will give them that.


I also think they need to address how to handle such matter if they were to arise again.  You can't have a group trying to overthrow the government whenever it doesn't like the decisions of the elected officials.  If the majority elects the person, then the minority has to deal with it. 


Sort of like us and Obama.  hah


I know the Chocolate King is running on an anti-corruption platform.  I wish him much luck because it is so ingrained at all levels in that country it will be a very difficult task.  Especially if there is a threat of revolt if certain groups don't like what he is doing. 


A lot of people rely on what we consider as corruption to pad their meager salaries.  I wonder if wages will rise if that is stopped or people will suffer more from the lost of that income.


Its interesting to compare corruption between the US and Ukraine.   In the US, we are shielded from day to day corruption which tends to make things run more smoothly.  While in Ukraine, doing anything seems to be a nightmare. 


Most of the corruption ends up at the higher levels in the US.  That means the money tends to not trickle down to the people who could use it the most.


In Ukraine, everyone has their hands out which allows people from all levels to get a piece of the pie.

[Gator]

Those of you interested in the subject of  shale gas in Ukraine, this is an informative article.

 http://www.naturalgaseurope.com/shale-gas-perspectives-ukraine


It provides a good map showing the two shale gas formations.  Compared to the formations in the US, these two are not large, yet still large enough when fully developed to supply Ukraine's needs.  Wiki reports that Ukraine has Europe's 3rd largest shale gas reserves at 42 trillion cubic feet (1.2 trillion cubic meters).


Chevron has the development contract for the Olesska formation in western Ukraine near Romania and Poland (where Chevron is already working).  Shell has the development contract for the Yuzivskaformation in the east.   The eastern formation is in the political area now being contested, and thereby could be another reason why Russia may invade eastern Ukraine. 

[jone]

My opinion?  Well, in order to move forward I would say the only way would be elections.  The past is the past and dwelling on it won't really help Ukraine which is why moving forward with new elections is important.   They need some type of stability now and hopefully new elections will give them that.


I also think they need to address how to handle such matter if they were to arise again.  You can't have a group trying to overthrow the government whenever it doesn't like the decisions of the elected officials.  If the majority elects the person, then the minority has to deal with it. 


Sort of like us and Obama.  hah


I know the Chocolate King is running on an anti-corruption platform.  I wish him much luck because it is so ingrained at all levels in that country it will be a very difficult task.  Especially if there is a threat of revolt if certain groups don't like what he is doing. 


A lot of people rely on what we consider as corruption to pad their meager salaries.  I wonder if wages will rise if that is stopped or people will suffer more from the lost of that income.


Its interesting to compare corruption between the US and Ukraine.   In the US, we are shielded from day to day corruption which tends to make things run more smoothly.  While in Ukraine, doing anything seems to be a nightmare. 


Most of the corruption ends up at the higher levels in the US.  That means the money tends to not trickle down to the people who could use it the most.


In Ukraine, everyone has their hands out which allows people from all levels to get a piece of the pie.

It is not like Obama. Americans, in general, do not understand elections in a post Soviet country. 

There is no transparency.  Elections are won through ballot stuffing and politicians make decisions based on bribes, shakedowns and cronyism.  Didn't that map that GQ put up yesterday look a little strange to you?  Do you REALLY think that the country is that polarized?  The simple fact is that Yanukovych was elected by the team that could put together the most illegal votes!  Are you one who believes that 88% of the people voted in Krim and that 97% voted to allign with Russia like our misguided Andrew Dorner?

While it is not my story to tell, I heard a grizzly tale two days ago, from a gal who worked as an election observer in a Ukrainian election.  All things were nominal until it was time to count that ballots.  Then she was escorted from the room in almost a show-down situation.  She could never confirm that the ballots she witnessed were counted.  I hope she comes on here to tell her story.  It would be good for the forum to hear it.

The only real method for a country like Ukraine, to object to what their politicians are doing is to protest.  (That option doesn't exist in Russia as all protests, not agreed to by the Government, are illegal and perpetrators prosecuted.)  When Yanu took the country 180% from where they were, signing the affiliation agreement with the EU, to be lockstep with Russian foreign policy, EuroMaidan was a foregone conclusion.  The dismissal of the President was done by the Rada because he took lethal action against the protesters. 

It is a mistake that Kyiv is very careful not to repeat with the current situations in the East.

LFU, you make light of the fact that there is no smoking gun, yet, with Yanu.  But you, again, think like an American.  Think like a member of the Rada, of the Party of Regions, and ask yourself, what would make you change your entire support for an individual and kick him out of your party in the space of three or four days?  If you can answer that question, you'll have your answer as to why Yanu is no longer president.

While the rule of law might have been fiddled with, as it always seems to be in the former Soviet block, the system marginally works.   And in this case, the people's voice was heard thorugh the only method open to them.

[LiveFromUkraine]

It is not like Obama. Americans, in general, do not understand elections in a post Soviet country. 

There is no transparency.  Elections are won through ballot stuffing and politicians make decisions based on bribes, shakedowns and cronyism.  Didn't that map that GQ put up yesterday look a little strange to you?  Do you REALLY think that the country is that polarized?  The simple fact is that Yanukovych was elected by the team that could put together the most illegal votes!  Are you one who believes that 88% of the people voted in Krim and that 97% voted to allign with Russia like our misguided Andrew Dorner?

While it is not my story to tell, I heard a grizzly tale two days ago, from a gal who worked as an election observer in a Ukrainian election.  All things were nominal until it was time to count that ballots.  Then she was escorted from the room in almost a show-down situation.  She could never confirm that the ballots she witnessed were counted.  I hope she comes on here to tell her story.  It would be good for the forum to hear it.

The only real method for a country like Ukraine, to object to what their politicians are doing is to protest.  (That option doesn't exist in Russia as all protests, not agreed to by the Government, are illegal and perpetrators prosecuted.)  When Yanu took the country 180% from where they were, signing the affiliation agreement with the EU, to be lockstep with Russian foreign policy, EuroMaidan was a foregone conclusion.  The dismissal of the President was done by the Rada because he took lethal action against the protesters. 

It is a mistake that Kyiv is very careful not to repeat with the current situations in the East.

LFU, you make light of the fact that there is no smoking gun, yet, with Yanu.  But you, again, think like an American.  Think like a member of the Rada, of the Party of Regions, and ask yourself, what would make you change your entire support for an individual and kick him out of your party in the space of three or four days?  If you can answer that question, you'll have your answer as to why Yanu is no longer president.

While the rule of law might have been fiddled with, as it always seems to be in the former Soviet block, the system marginally works.   And in this case, the people's voice was heard thorugh the only method open to them.

jone, since you nor I was there, I couldn't possibly know about election fraud.


Funny, I would say most of the people stating Yanu was corrupt and should have been illegally ousted would be thinking like an American.   Some of the things that I have read, from a source I would consider an expert, says the Yanu was doing more for Ukraine than most of his predecessors.


It seems (again from a trusted person) one of the main reasons for this little coup was because he was fighting corruption and that was blow back from the wealthy who stole country assets.  I'm not saying Yanu isn't corrupt.  I have been saying all of them are corrupt. 


Of course most people, who think like Americans, can't understand how a person who is corrupt can still be good for that country.  You are trying to school me with the "you can't comprehend because you think like an American" when in fact you are making judgment calls based on western ideology.


I see it for what it is.  The wealthy are all corrupt.  No matter who you replace Yanu with will also be corrupt.  It is what it is and most here can't seem to accept it. 


Just because you state Yanu ordered the snipers doesn't make it true.  Just because the illegal government states he orders the snipers and the FSB was involved doesn't make it true.   Believing what you are told without asking for facts is exactly what most governments want from us.


Now you got the US saying that Russia withheld important information regarding the Tsarnaev brothers is what I'm talking about.  Don't you think it is interesting timing this came out when it did?

Even if Yanu did order those snipers, that doesn't mean you can bypass constitutional law because he was a bad person.  You still have to follow due process.  You can't say legality doesn't matter because he was corrupt or a bad person.  Doing so goes down the road to even more corruption.


I don't believe he ordered the snipers.  I believe blaming him is just another tactic to help legitimize an illegal coupe.  It simply wouldn't be logical to do such a thing.


From what I have been told, EU observers and Canadian observers have said the elections, that Yanu won, were fair.  Disclaimer:  This was from someone I trust on this matter.  If there is anything that contradicts this then I am all open to discussion on this. 


jone, I am not interested in being right or wrong.  I think you understand that and I have no problem reading more on the topic that could change my mind.  The big thing, for me, was trying to understand where you and some of the others are coming from.  That is why I asked for more info because I could have missed something myself.

[jone]

LFU,

We agree to disagree.

I am satisfied enough that I know that the general operation in an election in Ukraine is ballot stuffing.  I am satisfied with my own discussions that most of the people in authority are on the take.   I really would like an individual to come on here to relate their own experiences as an election observer in Ukraine, but perhaps that is not to be.

I also know enough about demographics that I can pick out that the next leader of Ukraine will not be a member of Yanukovych's former party.  Eliminating the great plurality of Russian heritage voters from Crimea assured that outcome.

My observation before, regarding the ouster of Yanu, was that the Rada, and most of the world, thought they had gotten it right.  Did you know that there were a number of Rada members who chose not to participate, so were stipulated as not part of the Rada?  I heard that from a friend of mine but have yet to investigate.  (Have better things to do with my time.)  You are hanging the ouster of Yanu as being legal on a technicality.  Yet you constantly refer to the 'Illegal' ouster.  The guy and most of his minions were run out of town.  By his own party.  You keep on ignoring that simple fact.  Not duress.  Not contrived.  They kicked him out.  You are ignoring the elephant in the room and that makes your arguments specious.

Can I ask you a question?  Who do you think arranged the ongoing spa visit for Ms. Tymoshenko?  While I happen to believe she had her snout in the feed trough, as well, you don't throw your primary political opponent in jail.    Yanukovych used to brag that he could corrupt an individual in a fortnight.  No, I don't think Mr. Yanukovych was the parading crusader for anti-corruption.

So let me disabuse you of another notion.  Not all people who are wealthy are corrupt.  Even in Ukraine, but especially here in America.  Most of the extremely wealthy people that I know here in America have risen above the petty corruptness that you speak of.   The second or third generation people that have money in America are typically investors and money managers.  They operate on trends.

There are, of course, exceptions.  I don't agree with what the Koch brothers are doing.  But, unfortunately it is legal in America.  I didn't agree with putting the ACORN kids on the streets in 2008, but that, then was also legal.  (I digress.)

Suffice it to say that the great majority of Ukraine has returned to normal operations following Maidan.  The outcome of the future election and the required changes for affiliation with the EU will hopefully leave a mark on this downtrodden society.

LFU, you are not like FT who sees a video clip on TV and immediately believes that most Russian heritage people wish to be Russian.  Life in downtown Lugansk or Donetsk is pretty normal with the exception of those two buildings.  Surely you know that, even now, the great majority of people in Ukraine, proper, want to live in Ukraine.  You've got a head on your shoulders.  There is not even a plurality of Russian heritage Ukrainians in the Donbass region.  I know many Ukrainians.  They live in a less than transparent society.  But they are not sheep.

I think what we all hope for is transparency and a representative government.  That is the only way Ukraine can move forward.   Unfortunately, Putin is doing everything he can to disrupt such an occurrence.

[Muzh]

Funny, I would say most of the people stating Yanu was corrupt and should have been illegally ousted would be thinking like an American.   Some of the things that I have read, from a source I would consider an expert, says the Yanu was doing more for Ukraine than most of his predecessors.

That is an affirmative, at least with the orphanage issue in Kharkiv. I know for a fact (actually, saw the papers) where Yanukonvict's thugs DID disburse some monies and took care of some "issues" regarding the orphans out there. Goldilocks would promise and promise but never deliver. And Yushenko's response was : Orphans? What orphans?
 
Now, the streets, the hospitals, anything else? Just ask the guys driving their brand new BMW/AUDI/MB.

[LiveFromUkraine]

That is an affirmative, at least with the orphanage issue in Kharkiv. I know for a fact (actually, saw the papers) where Yanukonvict's thugs DID disburse some monies and took care of some "issues" regarding the orphans out there. Goldilocks would promise and promise but never deliver. And Yushenko's response was : Orphans? What orphans?
 
Now, the streets, the hospitals, anything else? Just ask the guys driving their brand new BMW/AUDI/MB.

Yeah, like I said, they are all corrupt but the idea of the wealthy getting mad at Yanu trying to clean up some of the corruption puts things in perspective for me. 


I just couldn't get past that a demonstration could pull off what they did.  Even if I believed the west was involved it still didn't fully make sense.  The spider sense was tingling.


The demonstration and the wealthy fighting in the background put things in place for me.  Now that made sense to me.  If we all agree that Russian and the western countries interest is financial, then the idea that the wealthy were trying to protect their illegal monies isn't outside the realm of possibilities.

[jone]

I have no doubts that Yanu would selectively target some Oligarchs for anti-corruption efforts.  One only has to look at Dnepropetrovsk to ascertain the truth in that. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

LFU,

We agree to disagree.

I am satisfied enough that I know that the general operation in an election in Ukraine is ballot stuffing.  I am satisfied with my own discussions that most of the people in authority are on the take.   I really would like an individual to come on here to relate their own experiences as an election observer in Ukraine, but perhaps that is not to be.

I also know enough about demographics that I can pick out that the next leader of Ukraine will not be a member of Yanukovych's former party.  Eliminating the great plurality of Russian heritage voters from Crimea assured that outcome.

Sure, we won't fully know about the fair elections.  If the EU and Canadian observers said it was above board we will either have to accept it or deny it based on our other observations.  We won't truly know unless we were there.

But that also brings back a point about following due process.  If things like this are not to be questioned, the law needs to be followed.  The idea that certain laws can be tossed out under come circumstances will lead to questioning the validity of the whole system, like we are right now.

My observation before, regarding the ouster of Yanu, was that the Rada, and most of the world, thought they had gotten it right.  Did you know that there were a number of Rada members who chose not to participate, so were stipulated as not part of the Rada?  I heard that from a friend of mine but have yet to investigate.  (Have better things to do with my time.)  You are hanging the ouster of Yanu as being legal on a technicality.  Yet you constantly refer to the 'Illegal' ouster.  The guy and most of his minions were run out of town.  By his own party.  You keep on ignoring that simple fact.  Not duress.  Not contrived.  They kicked him out.  You are ignoring the elephant in the room and that makes your arguments specious.

It doesn't matter if Yanu's own party cut ties for self preservation.  The law should be followed regardless.  That brings us back to my point above. 


You are ignoring the fact they didn't follow the constitutional process to impeach the president.  I don't know why you continue to make excuses for not following the law but you do.


You can't simply kick him out the president with one vote.

Can I ask you a question?  Who do you think arranged the ongoing spa visit for Ms. Tymoshenko?  While I happen to believe she had her snout in the feed trough, as well, you don't throw your primary political opponent in jail.    Yanukovych used to brag that he could corrupt an individual in a fortnight.  No, I don't think Mr. Yanukovych was the parading crusader for anti-corruption.

Well, let's take a logical look at what I said previously.  If Yanu was indeed fighting corruption, Tymoshenko would be on that list unless you are trying to say she wasn't corrupt.  Is that what you're saying?  To me, that ties into the idea that Yanu was fighting corruption even if it looked political in nature.

So let me disabuse you of another notion.  Not all people who are wealthy are corrupt.  Even in Ukraine, but especially here in America.  Most of the extremely wealthy people that I know here in America have risen above the petty corruptness that you speak of.   The second or third generation people that have money in America are typically investors and money managers.  They operate on trends.

Most of the real wealthy, in Ukraine, who have real power, got that way because of corruption.  You think the Choco King became a billionaire without corruption?  Now that doesn't mean they can't do good or will always be corrupt.  I don't look at it as black and white any longer. 

Suffice it to say that the great majority of Ukraine has returned to normal operations following Maidan.  The outcome of the future election and the required changes for affiliation with the EU will hopefully leave a mark on this downtrodden society.

I don't know, it sounds more like there is still some instability on the streets. 

LFU, you are not like FT who sees a video clip on TV and immediately believes that most Russian heritage people wish to be Russian.  Life in downtown Lugansk or Donetsk is pretty normal with the exception of those two buildings.  Surely you know that, even now, the great majority of people in Ukraine, proper, want to live in Ukraine.  You've got a head on your shoulders.  There is not even a plurality of Russian heritage Ukrainians in the Donbass region.  I know many Ukrainians.  They live in a less than transparent society.  But they are not sheep.

Like I said, I am willing to learn more if people here would like to offer more info.  I may not accept certain things as facts but I will give it a read and some thought.


I would rather know the truth and we need to piece it together into what seems logically sound from multiple sources.  We may agree and we may disagree.  It's all good if we can keep it as a friendly discussion even if there are personal stakes.


I think all of us hope for the best.  I have a fondness for the people I met there and the warmth they graciously shared.  Most just want to live a happy life like we all do.

I think what we all hope for is transparency and a representative government.  That is the only way Ukraine can move forward.   Unfortunately, Putin is doing everything he can to disrupt such an occurrence.

Yeah, they are being tugged in so many directions that it will be hard to stabilize and move forward.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I have no doubts that Yanu would selectively target some Oligarchs for anti-corruption efforts.  One only has to look at Dnepropetrovsk to ascertain the truth in that.

Like I said to Muzh, it put a lot of things in perspective for me. 


The whole idea a demonstration could overthrow the government seemed ridiculous even if there was some backing from the west.


Now add some of the wealthy working in the background, well, it does make more sense to me.  It was obvious why Russia and the west was interested, I don't see why we can't follow the money back to the wealthy wanting to keep their cashola.