What Does Ukraine Think?

[Boethius]

A series of essays, published by the European Council on Foreign Relations, provide an academic background on various issues surrounding Ukraine.  According to the editor of the publication, respected scholar Andrew Wilson (no, not FiFi), "Too much of the debate and diplomacy in the curent cris has been conducted without Ukraine. . . . Especially in the swirl of propaganda, mainly Russian, around events, ECFR is delight to give a platform for what Ukraininas call the "direct voice" of participants themselves."

From its site - ECFR is an award-winning international think tank that aims to conduct cutting-edge independent research; provide a safe meeting space for policy-makers, activists and intellectuals to share ideas; offer a media platform to get Europeans talking about their role in the world. It was established in 2007 by a council of fifty founding members, chaired by Martti Ahtisaari, Joschka Fischer, and Mabel van Oranje, with initial funding from George Soros’s Open Society Foundations, the Communitas Foundation, Sigrid Rausing, Unicredit and Fride.

Here is an excerpt from a paper by Anton Shekhovtstov, a well known and respected scholar:

The 2014 Ukrainian revolution made the country’s far right a topic of international debate.  Once the object of only a few academic studies, it suddenly became a key point of the information war unleashed by the Kremlin and Russia’s state-controlled media, first against the anti-government protesters and later against the new Ukrainian authorities.

The focus on the far-right element in the protests and the revolution was aimed at advancing three major interconnected and mutually sustaining propaganda narratives.  Firstly, presenting the protest movement as “neo-fascist” was intended to lower its support among Russian citizens, among Ukraine’s ethnic Russian/Russian-speaking community, and from the European Union.

Secondly, the revolution’s supposed “neo-fascist” or “ultranationalist” character was held up as evidence of a conspiracy by the United States and NATO against Russia and the “Russian World.”  This was part of the larger conspiracy theory that the anti-government protests were inspired by the West, specifically the US, to further Western expansionism and the enlargement of NATO and to undermine Russia’s standing in its sphere of influence.  This conspiracy theory eliminated Ukrainians as such from the geopolitical equation, depriving them of any agency.

Thirdly, the myth of the “fascist junta in Kyiv” aimed to invoke the heroic Soviet imagery and rhetoric of the “Great Patriotic War” to mobilise the population in eastern and southern Ukraine (the Kremlin’s “Novorossiya”) to start an “anti-fascist struggle” against the new Ukrainian authorities.  After the (belated) adoption of EU and US sanctions, the same narrative was used to portray Russia as a victim of Western aggression, referencing the USSR’s suffering as “a victim” of the Third Reich.  This narrative has found particularly fertile ground in Germany, with its Kollektivschuld (collective guilt) that overwhelmingly “singles out as the object of German guilt only Russia but not Ukraine as the legitimate heir to the Soviet Union.” [2]

This is not to say that the Ukrainian far right was not involved in the revolution or the later political process.  However, ultranationalist elements were far from dominant, and the circumstances of their presence were much more complex than was presented either by the Kremlin and its media or by the Ukrainian revolutionary movement and the new Ukrainian authorities.  Furthermore, Moscow ignored the far-right element among pro-Russian separatists and Russian volunteers in the war in eastern Ukraine.


You can read the balance here -

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/06/24/spectre-of-ukrainian-fascism-information-wars-political-manipulation-and-reality/

Very well worth the read.

[Boethius]

Here is a link to the papers.


http://www.ecfr.eu/publications/summary/what_does_ukraine_think3026

[JayH]

There is so much interesting material coming now that is in the "must read" category for anyone interested in understanding modern Ukraine--here is another piece that should be read.

Ukraine still fighting Western ignorance and Russian aggression

The seizure of Crimea and incursion in the east is a “violation of all international documents signed by civilized societies. It is warfare in the Donbas. This is not a hybrid war, or a separatist movement, but this is true warfare,” he said. “They claim this is about Russian volunteers, but it’s a true military aggression by the Russian military. I’m amazed officials in Western countries cannot say that the Russians are waging a war against the Ukrainians. The French president actually said he has not seen any Russian troops in Ukraine.”

Kravchuk said there is little understanding in Europe or North America that Ukraine is unique and not a part of Greater Russia. “In 1991, I was in Davos [the World Economic Forum] at a roundtable and a European prime minister asked me how many people lived in Ukraine? I said 50 million and he told me I was wrong that it could only be 5 million. Imagine that. More recently, it’s obvious that leaders know very little about Ukraine and our history and this is a problem,” he said. “We must change awareness worldwide.”
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/diane-francis-kravchuk-says-ukraine-still-fighting-western-ignorance-and-russian-aggression-392720.html

ADDED LATER--- just saw this
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg408227;topicseen#msg408227

[ML]

Alexander J. Motyl

Here's a suggestion that will strike you as either painfully obvious or unnecessarily cumbersome. If you really want to understand contemporary Ukraine and Ukrainians, then discard all the writings by linguistically challenged analysts incapable of delving deeper into the Ukrainian psyche—and go see two plays in Kyiv and visit two villages south of Kyiv.

The plays I have in mind are "Zacharovanyy" (The Enchanted Man) and "Divka (Maiden), a Ukrainian Love Story." The first, a modern adaptation of a nineteenth-century play by Ivan Karpenko-Karyy, tells the well-known story of two proud village lovers. They quarrel, marry the wrong person out of spite, and then—unhappy in their new relationships—reignite their love illicitly. In the final scene, the young man, desperate and confused, accidentally kills his wife.

At first glance, there's nothing new here. Look a little closer, however, and you'll see that the play has the same structure and moral message as an ancient Greek tragedy. The Ukrainian lovers attempt to assert their autonomy, fail, and then succumb to their tragic fate: misery and death.

The second play is by a young Ukrainian playwright, Vira Makovii, from the Bukovyna region of western Ukraine. The plot line is similar to that of "The Enchanted Man"—but with one major difference. The heroine refuses to bow to her fate and, in the final scene, appears to escape its hold, avoiding the misery and death that befalls all the women in her village.

Makovii, obviously, is trying to move Ukrainian culture away from its traditional submissiveness to a dreadful fate and, in decidedly modern fashion, suggesting that Ukrainians can be masters—or mistresses—of their lives. That happened to be the message of the Maidan "Revolution of Dignity": that a humbled people can assert their humanity by rising up against tyranny.

The two villages, both about 170 kilometers south of Kyiv, are Moryntsi and Shevchenkove, where Ukraine's "national poet," Taras Shevchenko (1814-61), spent his youth as a serf—or, to use American terminology, a slave. Visit the huts he lived in and you can't help but compare them with the slave cabins found on American plantations. Shevchenko had the good fortune to be a "house serf," or page, in the employ of his master, Pavel Engelhardt, and accompany him to St. Petersburg in 1831. There, the young slave impressed local painters and writers with his artistic talents, and in 1838 they raised the money to buy his freedom. Arrested in 1847 for his revolutionary activity and writings, Shevchenko spent most of the rest of his life in exile.

There are many reasons for Shevchenko's canonical status as Ukraine's national poet. His poetry is outstanding, his art is impressive, and his commitment to freedom and justice is remarkable. But what may appeal most to many Ukrainians is that Shevchenko never gave up. He never buckled under, refusing to submit to his tragic fate like the slave he was. Instead, he had the courage to say no, loudly and repeatedly.

So much of Ukrainian culture—and perhaps of the Ukrainian "psyche"—is defined by these two dialectically related components. On the one hand, there is the fatalistic acceptance (still) of one's tragic fate. And for Ukrainians, who barely survived two monstrous totalitarian dictatorships, the Soviet and the Nazi, and lost some fifteen million people in the process, it's not hard to find evidence of the correctness of that view.

On the other hand, there is the rebellious rejection of fate, along with the deep-seated admiration of courageous individuals who have the strength of will to say no and to keep on saying no even in the face of overwhelming odds.

Small wonder that growing numbers of Ukrainians admire the nationalists—commonly known as Banderites, or followers of Stepan Bandera—who fought Polish rule in 1921-39, Nazi rule in 1941-44, and Soviet rule in 1939-55. Western observers point to nationalist excesses and condemn them. But that's missing the point, somewhat like saying that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington don't deserve to be founding fathers because they had slaves. Ukrainians see strong-willed individuals who were willing to die for their ideals of independence and freedom. And, perhaps unsurprisingly, the contemporary Ukrainians who are most inclined to view the nationalists as symbols of resistance are the Russian-speaking easterners fighting Putin's troops in the Donbas and dying for the cause.

The similarity with Eastern European Jewish culture and Zionism is striking. Shtetl culture was generally resigned to the inevitability of tragedy, misery, and death. The Zionists were young men and women determined to reject that fatalistic worldview and create "new" Jews—strong, vigorous, and willful. If necessary, the Zionists would also use violence. As Frantz Fanon, the author of the classic anti-colonial tract, The Wretched of the Earth, pointed out, colonial peoples in Asia and Africa have similar cultural mindsets and generate identical individuals committed to national liberation.

On July 2, I attended a book presentation at Kyiv's "Ye" bookstore. Author Bohdan Zholdak had just published a novel about the ongoing war entitled "UKRY"— the derogatory name for Ukrainians that Russians use and that Ukrainians (like blacks with respect to "nigger" and gays with respect to "fag") have now appropriated. He dedicated the book to a young soldier, Zhora, who had been killed while returning to the front. Zhora's mother spoke at the gathering—in Russian. And she concluded her stirring words with the nationalist call, "Slava Ukraini!" [Glory to Ukraine!] The audience responded with the nationalist response—"Heroyam slava!" [Glory to the heroes].

An outsider with no knowledge of Ukrainian language or culture might interpret the exchange as a right-wing nationalist ritual. It wasn't. It was an assertion of dignity, humanity, and the right to determine one's fate.

Alexander J. Motyl is a professor of political science at Rutgers University-Newark, specializing on Ukraine, Russia, and the former USSR.

[iceshaft07]

Hey, I came across this today:

http://worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/2015/ukraine_0315.php

[BillyB]

Hey, I came across this today:

http://worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/2015/ukraine_0315.php

The West is appeasing Putin by offering him concessions in hopes he stops being a bad boy. The West is willing to forget about Crimea and pressuring Ukraine to give a couple of regions greater autonomy which makes it easier for Russia to annex them. Would you respect the guy(the West) who gives away a piece of property to the guy who wants to steal it? I don't blame Ukrainians for rejecting an aggressive Putin and the weak West.

[JayH]

The view of Ukrainians as constituents of the Russian nation goes back to the founding myth of modern Russia as a nation conceived and born in Kyiv (Kiev) in the tenth and eleventh centuries during the times of St. Vladimir. It was first widely disseminated in Russia by the Synopsis of 1674, the first printed “textbook” of Russian history, compiled by Kyivan monks seeking the protection of the Muscovite tsars.

Are Russians and Ukrainians the Same People?

To justify his meddling in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin has claimed Ukrainians as Russian people. Is he right?
In the last few years Vladimir Putin has surprised many observers of the international scene not only by his actions, but also by his words.

In the middle of the Ukraine crisis, while the Russian media was vilifying the new government in Kyiv as nothing less than a “fascist junta,” he repeatedly went on record claiming that Russians and Ukrainians were one and the same people. What it meant in practice was demonstrated in March 2014, when the Russian troops took over the Ukrainian Crimea, which Putin declared a historical heritage site common to the Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians and the place where his namesake, Prince Vladimir (Ukr. Volodymyr) of Kyiv, had been baptized. Russia’s annexation of the Crimea made this allegedly common site an exclusively Russian possession.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/10/are-russians-and-ukrainians-the-same-people.html

[JayH]

Brilliant survey undertaken by the Canadian government, and well worth reading (see attached PDF) as it gives good colour on likely choices by Ukraine's political leadership.
For  those who keep attempting to perpetrate myths fcs--read it and take note.
What Ukrainians are thinking


Herein are some of my general takeouts of popular attitudes in Ukraine gleaned from this survey, but I would suggest reading the full survey:

http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-what-ukrainians-are-thinking-405843.html

[JayH]

“Despite Russia’s continued efforts to drive a wedge between the Donbas and the rest of Ukraine and its continued violations of the Minsk Agreement, as confirmed by President Putin himself, the people of Ukraine, including those living in the Ukrainian-controlled areas of the Donbas, want to preserve the territorial integrity of their country,” said Stephen Nix, director of Eurasia programs at IRI [ a core institute of the National Endowment for Democracy].  “There is no doubt that Ukrainians long for the unity and sovereignty of their country, and it is critical that the United States and Europe support Ukraine to ensure that Russia’s occupation does not become permanent.”

Ordinary Ukrainians, Euromaidan activists and military veterans are despondent at the complete lack of progress in the fight against high-level corruption and the dominance of Ukraine’s oligarchs, says a prominent analyst. They have no confidence in President Petro Poroshenko’s ability to reduce oligarchic monopolization of the economy and television and bring to justice [former president] Yanukovich and his kleptocratic cronies, the University of Alberta’s Taras Kuzio writes for The Financial Times:


Ukraine: the good, the bad, the irreversible

Ukraine’s not-so-post-Soviet “elites” are narcissistic, unwilling to listen, and arrogant. Mychailo Wynnyckyj, a Ukrainian-Canadian professor, said after a recent meeting with Poroshenko, “He clearly was not interested in hearing any opinions other than his own,” and quoted Poroshenko as saying, “Someday you will all realise that I am the best president Ukraine has ever had, and the best of all possible presidents for the present day.”


After nearly two years of war and an onslaught of Russian propaganda, pessimism is high throughout the country, particularly in  the areas of the Donbas region governed by national authorities (Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts), according to a new poll released today by the International Republican Institute’s (IRI) Center for Insights in Survey Research. However, despite the war and Russia’s propaganda, an overwhelming majority of Donbas residents in these areas want to remain part of Ukraine, the poll finds:

http://www.demdigest.org/ukraine-the-good-the-bad-the-irreversible/

[JayH]

Interesting statistical update of a topic that was previously often discussed.
The numbers reflect a significant change from a decade ago. Of particular note is the direction of young Ukrainians.


How many Russians consider themselves Ukrainian by nationality

There is a trend whereby the share of respondents who identify themselves as ethnic Ukrainian increases with a decrease in the age of the respondents. Thus, 87% of those 60 and older call themselves Ukrainian and aged 18 to 29 years - ethnic Ukrainian to 96%.

http://24tv.ua/skilki_ukrayintsiv_vvazhayut_sebe_rosiyanami_za_natsionalnistyu_infografika_n812997?fshare

[msmob]

Pretty normal nationalist indoctrination... if enough people you respect - like teachers - teach you a form of history - you'll believe it....

Of course, the younger generation feel more 'Ukrainian' ....   

I encountered the same crap at 11 years old....   One day, Jack Frost - that really was his name - our headmaster - passed by a history lesson and took over the lesson on seeing the Map of the British Isles..He asked us if ther were any R.Catholics in the class  - no cam the answer - and off he went ....by the end of the lesson I was a Brit - not Irish - and if anyone told me I was Irish - I had to correct them ....

Meanwhile - years later .. I discovered my playmates Kevin an Paul Murphy - who went to the 'Catholic School' were taught that the 'border' was an atrocity and they were to remind folk that they were Irish in an occupied part of Ireland .... 

Screw Nationalists ... and the divisions they bring about....((

[Boethius]

I disagree moby.  I know what you're saying, but it's the other way around.


In Soviet times, it was far more advantageous to your "advancement" in society to proclaim yourself Russian, particularly after Shelest was removed.  If you were Ukrainian, there was always a nagging suspicion of bourgeois nationalist tendencies. 


The other thing is that Russians were moved to Ukraine to "Russify" the republic.  A huge number of those Russians returned to Russia after the collapse, either shortly after, or as the economy there improved while Ukraine's economy stagnated.

[msmob]

I disagree moby.  I know what you're saying, but it's the other way around.

Perhaps, the poster who said my writing style was to blame was correct...

I was responding - in general - to Nationalism and indoctrination.

I've seen how the May 9th Parades have grown in popularity in 15 years - in Russia. Whilst admiring remembering those who died, I question the then leaderships motivation - as they replaced one sort of totalitarian rule, with another - in nations they were 'liberating' ..... 

In Soviet times, it was far more advantageous to your "advancement" in society to proclaim yourself Russian, particularly after Shelest was removed.  If you were Ukrainian, there was always a nagging suspicion of bourgeois nationalist tendencies. 


The other thing is that Russians were moved to Ukraine to "Russify" the republic.  A huge number of those Russians returned to Russia after the collapse, either shortly after, or as the economy there improved while Ukraine's economy stagnated.

Indeed - further to my old headmaster's attempts to make me feel  British - I had to travel often to 'the South' of Ireland - ironically called the Free State' by many Loyalists ( Loyal to the Queen ) when married to the Mother of my Kids... Listening to the other side of the coin... realising my 'people' were  planted to 'Britishify' Ireland  - is why I feel so strongly about calls for 'novorossiya' to be 're-instated' from Russia, while discussing ceding from Russia are deemed to be criminal, here..It seems so bizarre.

[Boethius]

The parades in Russia now are very similar to those in Soviet times.  I wouldn't expect much to be different, given the current leaders are, in essence, the former leaders. 

[JayH]

The parades in Russia now are very similar to those in Soviet times.  I wouldn't expect much to be different, given the current leaders are, in essence, the former leaders.

And they are intent on recreating the Soviet Union !

[Boethius]

There are a fair number of people nostalgic for those times, even those who never lived then. 

[msmob]

Hasn't VVP gone on record as saying the collapse of the USSR was a tragedy ?

I certainly observed more Stalin images on flags ?!

[Boethius]

They admire the law and order. But that's a misreading of history, of course.

[msmob]

They admire the law and order. But that's a misreading of history, of course.

Quite

Increasingly, I'm asked if  I like their President - by folks that know me and I always say, " I'm a westerner - best not to ask" and smile...   

[Boethius]

LOL. My MIL liked Margaret Thatcher. And, the better half adores Her Majesty.

[Donhollio]

Hasn't VVP gone on record as saying the collapse of the USSR was a tragedy ?

I certainly observed more Stalin images on flags ?!

  I believe Putin said it was a catastrophe of the 20th century.

[JayH]

  Another interesting read - I have seen much of this first hand.I particularly like the summary
QUOTING

"Where is Ukraine’s national awakening leading the country? Cynics will point out that patriotism usually does not improve living standards and can often have the opposite effect. Indeed, the Ukrainianization of Ukraine is a fascinating phenomenon, but it will not cure the country’s ills or make the population magically content to receive meager salaries and substandard state services. However, it is a prerequisite if Ukraine is to succeed as a modern European nation. A shared sense of identity is essential for the cohesion of any national community, and this was long lacking in post-Soviet Ukraine. Now the country has a fighting chance."

How Putin Accidentally United Ukraine

Ukraine became an independent country in 1991, but it took the outbreak of war in 2014 to forge it into a fully-fledged nation. As is often the case with major historic shifts, this change was not immediately apparent at the time. Even now, three years on, it may come as news to the millions of Ukrainians struggling to make ends meet while dealing with a largely unreformed state bureaucracy. Nevertheless, it is increasingly apparent that the traumatic and triumphant events of 2014 represented a national coming of age. We are now witnessing the Ukrainianization of Ukraine.


http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/how-putin-accidentally-united-ukraine

[msmob]

OK, if we are to believe JayH's copy and paste 'expert' - why don;t we read of folks in Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk clamoring for Kyiv to rescue them ?

There is an element of truth - but it's more down to polarised viewpoints being accentuated - depending on one's background, family, etc.,

[Boethius]

Excluding Crimea, I think the answer is the millions of internally displaced Ukrainians.  There are hundred of thousands of war refugees in Poland.  There are even war refugees in my city.

[JayH]

First off --I do not exclude Crimea in my comments.I have said repeatedly in the past that surveys showed a large majority considered themselves Ukrainians and that was preference . Polls that have come to light confirmed that in the 70% range.That was prior to the invasion--but not long before it.
Re Moby comments -- I have posted in the past that I am very close to a source whose work involves the collection and analysis of data, and I was privy to a substantial amount of material prior to it becoming public.I was involved in many discussions on interpreting that material.
I mention this because over a period of time it confirmed my own anecdotal information -- and also gave me a heads up on what questions would get to peoples thoughts .

It needs to be remembered the high degree of confusion in early 2014 -- and the lack of accurate information available. In many ways-- as an "outsider" I felt ( & still do) that it was easier to be more objective and see trends more clearly. The article linked above explains some of the on the ground happenings.

Another very important point --the Russian troll army was in high gear -- the Russian media and in particular- the Russian media in Ukraine ( incl Crimea) were in full on assault . Obviously --the penetration was greatest closest to the border.Perhaps --I should add acceptance was greatest there -- and other places where Russian media had greatest influence. eg  isolated locals who believed the Nazi army  from Kyiv were on the way to wipe out the Russian speaking population in the Donbas.

Of course not everyone believed the nonsense -- far more people fled west rather than east into Russia.

Many who felt they had no choice but to stay are hardly in a position to indicate they are not happy with the occupiers .

That comment applies to the Crimea too -- these Russian occupied areas are not places people can speak freely --certainly not if they want to stay alive !

OK, if we are to believe JayH's copy and paste 'expert' - why don;t we read of folks in Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk clamoring for Kyiv to rescue them ?

There is an element of truth - but it's more down to polarised viewpoints being accentuated - depending on one's background, family, etc.,

Where would people be able to clamour? I have posted results of polls taken that certainly show a majority want to be governed by Kyiv. But-- as I said --having or expressing such a sentiment publicly is very unwise .
While you are poking at me over links-- where exactly would you ever see such sentiments expressed? No answer required.

This is also the situation on the Crimea -
Indoctrination campaign for kids reveals identity crisis of Kremlin’s proxy “republics” in Donbas

While the future of Donbas seemed unclear for everyone, the people whom Ivleva met those days manifested a strikingly broad palette of civic identities. A male resident of Donetsk, who identified himself as a “Russian-speaking Ukrainian,” confessed that the sense of Ukraine as his homeland had been dormant in him until recently but awoke under the influence of the Kremlin’s aggressive policy. However, he could not profess his commitment to Ukraine without a risk to his life unless he was at home, “covered with a pillow.”

http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/04/22/indoctrination-campaign-kids-reveals-identity-crisis-kremlin-proxy-republics-donbas/