Ironically, I am NOT excited about meeting anyone online, or romantically advancing this trip. I don't believe that's the way this stuff works in reality. SURE some guys get lucky. Some blind squires find nuts too.
I'm about 30 days out of a LONG over due trip to Eastern Europe and Ukraine. If this was 3 years ago, I would start a BLOG and contribute essays to each twist and turn of my experience (Remember Kuna? Damn I loved that guy!) It most certainly does seems appropriate that I offer a trip report after all the taking here, and little giving. I will be on the ground about 1.5 months. So, let this be the beginning:
First things first. PFFF - The Russian Language! May as well be Martian. Translation apps will help. I do not want to dive deep into this language. If I don't have 5 - 10 years (hard years most likely), it seems futile. If anybody has good suggestions on where I can 50 - 100 common phrases, I'll make the flash cards.
Ironically, I am NOT excited about meeting anyone online, or romantically advancing this trip. I don't believe that's the way this stuff works in reality. SURE some guys get lucky. Some blind squires find nuts too.
I should mention for the sake of continuity, I have lived much of the last 4 years in the Caribbean, Central and South America. Colombia mostly. I have met serious women at wife hunting events on a handful of occasions - I sort of blew them off. I thought the women were too desperate to find a husband / better life. Or, I thought the women had too much of an interviewer's disposition. In colombia, I could take my time and learn the language and spend much time climbing the social latter. There I began to find my own social equilibrium. I don't think that will be the case with Hungary or Ukraine (but, I am open to the possibilities).
This feels more like a work trip; but, one that I am happy to take. AND, this all feels terribly SOBER to me ... and that is probably a very good sign.
So, Russian Language Flash cards please?
From this, it sounds like you are going to be the blind squirrel.
What would happen if you met Mrs. Right ?
I would have a DIFFERENT KIND OF interesting life - I would hope.
Or, are you implying that a fun, interesting, stimulating, a little dangerous, and sexy life is impossible in the state of marriage? Obviously, there would need to be adjustments - especially if kids where involved. But, I do not subscribe to the notion that life - married, or otherwise - needs to be constant vanilla process of accumulation, always comfortable, and always predictable - without color and passion.
Don't take this the wrong way Rivardco as it certainly isn't meant as a put down but, one common theme in most of your threads is "ME, ME, ME". There is probably more reasons than you'll admit as to why you are still single. Relationships take work, real work and commitment to someone other than "ME". If or when you meet Miss Right you might not recognize her if color and passion is your catalyst on everything you do. FWIW
If I find someone worthy of the type of investment that you suggest, I would be happy to do so. Will I be able to recognize such a person these days? I do not know.
"Where specifically are you going, if I may ask?"
I am arriving and leaving from Vienna. I have a little work to do with a client in Hungary and Slovakia. Budapest seems like a good city to be in for 10 days. Then, train to Kiev where I will enlist the help of Jack Bragg to give me a world wind tour of Eastern Ukraine - 2.5 weeks.
I still have 20 days with no particular plans after this. I am not a big "site seeing" guy. I do NOT care for capital cities. I much prefer a little edge and authenticity. I enjoy travelling alone and meeting people spontaneously. I find it hard to think that I would meet 100 women and NOT find somebody interesting. I would much rather stay a week or two in any town in which find a woman of interest.
I am up for any suggestions on other locations BTW
While I travel, I do have to work / make client phone calls daily (some days I can work 2 - 3 hours Other day 7 - 10. Thank God for the internet. I converted many of our company's system to "cloudware")
Why in the world go further than Budapest? Prague ain't bad either and only a few hundred klicks away.
No lo se? I am a virgin here, pimo:)
I am not seeking a out of this world trade-up in my dating life. Hungary, Romania? todos es posible! I am with the understanding that Hungary is a terrible language on the ears. I am with the understanding that Romanian women are difficult to read (although I have never found this to be true).
We will see. I have much to see and learn. But, the odd thing in all this is Latinas - Colombianas - never have made my heart race, EVER. Meanwhile, on many chance encounters with women from Russia / Ukraine, the results were very different. HMMM GO FIGURE ..
HMMM GO FIGURE .
If I Dig Deeper, Gator will make fun of me for being too abstract and theoretical.
Did you mean No se ( I do not know) or No sabia ( I did not know)? ;D
No lo se? I am a virgin here, primo:)
ALSO, about meeting women online, I read my post from last night and I did not want to seem dismissive, or arrogant. I just understand that if a woman is truly beautiful and eligible, she is not at home knitting waiting for my letter to change her life (and would I really want that in the first place?) Beautiful women have choices - EVERYWHERE.
I was thinking this but didn't want to say anyting. You did it, Misha :) )
You have never been to the FSU I presume. Sure beautiful women have choices, but they may not like the choices they meet on a daily basis and will seek new options. Some will turn to free Russian dating sites.
Well, the thing about using a Russian Free dating site, or any other non-local site for that matter is you have to travel a long ways for one possibility.
ALSO, about meeting women online, I read my post from last night and I did not want to seem dismissive, or arrogant. I just understand that if a woman is truly beautiful and eligible, she is not at home knitting waiting for my letter to change her life (and would I really want that in the first place?) Beautiful women have choices - EVERYWHERE.
...I just understand that if a woman is truly beautiful and eligible, she is not at home knitting waiting for my letter to change her life (and would I really want that in the first place?) Beautiful women have choices - EVERYWHERE....
You have never been to the FSU I presume. Sure beautiful women have choices, but they may not like the choices they meet on a daily basis and will seek new options. Some will turn to free Russian dating sites.
Reading your posts (not just this one), i have got impression (or mis--impression:)) that you are intersted only in unattainable women, those that give you signs that they are NOT intersted in you enough for your relationship to proceed to intimate level. Women that have shown interest in you are seen as desperate even if initially, they seemed unattainable
This upcoming trip seems like an orientation exercise NOT like a treasure hunt.
You need 42 days to become oriented!
(if you REALLY fall for a woman, an existing child is no burden ...
You have got to be kidding!!!!
Question: I repeatedly solicited this board to get good comments / resources to best determine a location to live for an extended amount of time - several months minimum. I get it - Kiev is the only first world alternative, with Dniper being something tolerable to most you fellas. But, the amount of comments on this question has been anemic. Are there no very cool and unique cities / locations that jump out to anybody where it would be nice to live for a couple months?
On line contacts: I'm probably a little behind the 8 ball here; but that could be best. A) There are much slimmer-pickins than appears to be the case when you look at a handful of cities rather than the world.
Question: I repeatedly solicited this board to get good comments / resources to best determine a location to live for an extended amount of time - several months minimum. I get it - Kiev is the only first world alternative, with Dniper being something tolerable to most you fellas. But, the amount of comments on this question has been anemic. Are there no very cool and unique cities / locations that jump out to anybody where it would be nice to live for a couple months?
- I don't care about how food tastes LOL
- I don't care about luxury and security and convenience
- I value the unusual and the charming
- I can not "unplug" from the modern world because of my work.
GraciASS ...
As long as you are taking suggestions. Saint Petersburg. You would be hard pressed to find a Westerner that didn't enjoy that city. A first class world city. If you go and find I was wrong, I will consider refunding the money you paid for this advice
Very true Misha.
Here are pics of two my friends. Although these pics do not do justice to them, and they are much more attractive in reality, these pics are all i have.
These girls had many options, i saw both crying in frustration that all want to get in their pants. Yet both of them were singels for long intervals of time while seeking new options.
I somehow missed these on the first go around... Just judging by the photos.. the first one looks like she'd be a ton of fun.. the second... hmmm... how to phrase it... sorta like a train wreck just waiting to happen...
8)
I have ZERO ladies that I have met online. Let's take a vote! Does this trip have c-l-u-s-t-e-r f-u-c-k written all over it?
And, seriously, is this sports coat weather, or what?
making sure I build up my vodka tolerance ...
First things first. PFFF - The Russian Language! May as well be Martian. Translation apps will help. I do not want to dive deep into this language. If I don't have 5 - 10 years (hard years most likely), it seems futile. I[/size]f anybody has good suggestions on where I can 50 - 100 common phrases, I'll make the flash cards
I have spent almost $600 in tutoring in the last 400 months because im pushing myself to learn quickly.
Ouch! I don't think that's a fair assessment. I know several people from Odessa, both men and women - decent, fun, wonderful people with great family values. Now if you are looking among 20 something yo agency girls than you will find scamming/devious women, bit you will find those just as easily in any other city you have mentioned. Look among the general population, outside of the agency circuit and you may find some really nice women.
If you like scamming/devious women . . . then Odesa cannot be beaten.
A snail with an eye for a bargain! A buck-fifty per month!
Excellent post... but this was just too good of a goof!
If you like scamming/devious women . . . then Odesa cannot be beaten.
If you want to do a lot of cultural things . . . then Kyiv cannot be beaten.
If you want to see a lot of very interesting things . . . then Yalta cannot be beaten.
If you like scamming/devious women . . . then Odesa cannot be beaten.
If you want to be in a city more like countries to the west of Ukraine . . . then Lvov is the place to go.
If you like to be in a very comfortable, more laid back city with seemingly larger than average percentage of good women . . . then Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk cannot be beaten.
maybe from a perspective of a foreigner who is a natural "mark" for those women who make a living off the visitors from the West. ML if you became fluent in Russian and lived there for a few years meeting women who don't "hang out" at popular night clubs trying to hook the next mark, I'm sure you would have a different opinion. They have a wonderful sense of humor in Odessa specific to that city only (most famous Soviet time comedians came from Odessa) and a zest for life. Sure there are plenty of criminals and dishonest people but that's why not being an obvious "mark" is important. You have to be able to blend in and meet normal women who work hard, spend time at home with family or friends on weekends and lead a humble but wholesome lifestyle. This is how the women from Odessa that I know are: a lot of fun, very loyal to their husbands (for life) great mothers and wives.
And its still true: If you like scamming/devious women . . . then Odesa cannot be beaten.
Western Ukraine is a good place to look as well. If you must look in Ukraine, I'd probably focus on the Western part if I were you.
maybe from a perspective of a foreigner who is a natural "mark" for those women who make a living off the visitors from the West. ML if you became fluent in Russian and lived there for a few years meeting women who don't "hang out" at popular night clubs trying to hook the next mark, I'm sure you would have a different opinion. They have a wonderful sense of humor in Odessa specific to that city only (most famous Soviet time comedians came from Odessa) and a zest for life. Sure there are plenty of criminals and dishonest people but that's why not being an obvious "mark" is important. You have to be able to blend in and meet normal women who work hard, spend time at home with family or friends on weekends and lead a humble but wholesome lifestyle. This is how the women from Odessa that I know are: a lot of fun, very loyal to their husbands (for life) great mothers and wives.
less of a chance of meeting prodaters and other women who are just earning a living from the MOB industry. People are not as jaded, more down to earth. But off course it's just a generality.
Eduard, could you elaborate on your reasoning on Western vs Eastern Ukraine ladies?
Eduard, you are still deliberately missing my point.Fact is that in any city there are dishonest people making a living off taking advantage of others and there are decent people who are hard working, family oriented down to earth persons. If you must generalise and put a stereotype on a city then you must have some kind of evidence in a form of a ratio of honest to dishonest people which I doubt you can produce. But even if you could, what would it mean exactly? Say you can produce evidence that a ratio of honest to dishonest people is 55:45 in Donetsk versus 45:55 in Odessa. Does this mean that you can't find a good woman in Odessa? NO. And the biggest shyster in Ukraine - Ukrainian president, comes from Donetsk. If you are going to use this rational, then you should be avoiding Ukraine all together and look in Russia or Belarus where in my experience people are in less of a "survival mode" and the ratio of honest to dishonest is much better IMO.
For instance, you try to deflect my comments about Odesa by saying thing such as "a perspective of a foreigner who is a natural "mark" for those women who make a living off the visitors from the West."
You are ignoring that I also commented on Kyiv, Yalta, Kharkiv and Dnipro where I was subject to the same 'natural mark.' And I have noted many times here that I have been to FSU dozens of times and visited dozens of cities in addition to those mentioned in this thread. And I am not a "Russian Bride" hunter. Most of my trips were for business.
My views about Odesa women (and even about Odesa people in general) are shared by many other WM and by many native Ukrainians. You can find similar views in many travel guide books.
I repeat even stronger: If you like scamming/devious women . . . then Odesa cannot be beaten.
ML,
Is there a reason why Odessa is as you say it is? It can not be random. For example, is there a large sex tourism trade in Odessa?
Regarding what native Ukrainians say about Odessa, I have heard RW make impolite remarks about UW, remarks that are mostly untrue based on my experience.
PS. ML, Odessa is spelled with 2 Ss
Odesa is the hub of drug trafficking and, by some accounts, human trafficking, into the EU.
Odesa has always had a reputation as a city of shysters. That goes back to before the Revolution.
Ed is right about Odesa's "style". It also has a distinct music style, partly evident here -
No it is not, except by rude Russians who contend that Ukraine is not a real country.well, OK! I will use ML's logic and suggest that:
And once again: If you like scamming/devious women . . . then Odesa cannot be beaten.
But this comment of mine has to be read as an answer to the question posed by the OP, AND in conjunction with the entirety of my original answer to him.
Quote from: ML on April 01, 2012, 10:01:55 AM (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14515.msg292501#msg292501)
If you want to do a lot of cultural things . . . then Kyiv cannot be beaten.
If you want to see a lot of very interesting things . . . then Yalta cannot be beaten.
If you like scamming/devious women . . . then Odesa cannot be beaten.
If you want to be in a city more like countries to the west of Ukraine . . . then Lvov is the place to go.
If you like to be in a very comfortable, more laid back city with seemingly larger than average percentage of good women . . . then Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk cannot be beaten.
If you want to find a beautiful yet down-to-earth, non-materialistic, family oriented woman as quickly and easily as possible ...
Move to Plan M !
Mongolian women have got no idea what's going on in the market today ;)
Many cities all over the world have been labelled as criminal cities or drug trafficing capitals or car theft captials etc.... People still seem to find love in all those cities! Just because you cant find love there doesnt mean everyone is bad. Thats just an excuse!
ML What will happen if you goto Lviv and find out that city is just like Odessa(cant be beaten)? Move on to the next city? There comes a point when you run out of cities. Maybe it is not the city. Could it be that what your looking for is out of reach or sight?
I just dont think it's a fair assessment to label everyone the same way, when that is very untrue. Just because there are a few bad people in a city doesnt mean everyone is bad. Sometimes we need to think outside the box.
- Has anyone noticed a high frequency of yellow teeth? What's up with this?
You don't have to be Dick Tracy to correctly assume that these agency / online women ALREADY have a local boyfriend (s). I would not trust a Latina in a relationship when there are regular absences of 90 days. What is the prevailing wisdom on this board as this situation may apply to Russian women?When I was single and looking I've met several divorced FSU women here in FL who told me that when they met their American husbands through the agency they were using, they did have a boyfriend back home. One actually told me that her boyfriend gave her a ride to the airport and how passionate their last good bye was... she was a sexy thing... lived in St. Pete, FL at that time. They just felt that they could have a "better future" with an American than the future their local boyfriend could provide. They were looking for a "better deal" back home and then they were looking again for a "better deal" here in the US. I would try my best to avoid women like that.
A couple of questions for the group concerning "profiling", and other natural questions that arise when a man spends too much time on agency catalog pages.
- I take women who do not use overly sexually suggestive photos more seriously.
- I take women more seriously who reference friends and family in their profile,
or in initial meeting.
- I worry that women coming from less than solid homes and families can be emotionally incomplete.
- I am staying away from "young" women; 27 , with a emphasis at 30, 31. (I will not be bringing a big age gap woman back to live in the good ole' USA ... well, after some time; maybe)
- Has anyone noticed a high frequency of yellow teeth? What's up with this?
You don't have to be Dick Tracy to correctly assume that these agency / online women ALREADY have a local boyfriend (s). I would not trust a Latina in a relationship when there are regular absences of 90 days. What is the prevailing wisdom on this board as this situation may apply to Russian women?
They don't like it when you look at teeth . . . because that's what you do with horses.
Why not "... overly no sexually suggestive photos..." Afraid ordinary photos suggest a prude? Don't worry.
Are you kidding me. You see a difference between 27 and 30,31? Oddly, lecherous RM do.
Keep in mind that FSU gynecologists advise "use it or lose it."
Tomorrow I leave for the first leg of my trip. Europe and Eastern Europe for 10 days before arriving in Ukraine on the first of April.That's 18 days ago :o. Do you have one of these ;D?
That's 18 days ago :o . Do you have one of these ;D ?
Don't leave Bratislava until you have a nice cold Zlaty Bazant...then have one or two Pilsner when you get to Praha...
I will say, that in this subculture, the local men are not curious or friendly, and they look like they would be quick to fight.
Unfortunately, there is also a persistent disdain for Romas. I don't know what you look like Tim but a darker complexion can spell a likeness to Romas...
An interesting issue to kick around here ...Italian women too. From visiting both Spain and Italy, the Italian women are more enthusiastic IMO. And seem to know more English than Spanish women. I met an IW decades ago at a Club Med. Perfect week. We lost contact. For years she haunted my imagination.
Frankly, I think I could do just fine in Europe / South America generally speaking. In fact, I am interested in checking out South Spain. This is really a "IF LIGHTNING STRIKES" kind of trip for me.
...then, how do you say to
this woman - "Hey, it was great to meet and hang out over the last couple days,
but my bus is taking off and I am going to a different city to take more
applications?" This does not seem very deliberative or manly to me.
The woman I
want is not weak, or stupid. She would not accept waiting in line happily.
This would plant poison seeds. I have too much experience to not
know the consequences to even the most rational and understandable situations -
especially in the early days.
An interesting issue to kick around here ...
I have pretty damn high expectations now (or should I say, I feel no urge to compromise, or "get lucky). I do not care if I find a girlfriend or wife. Frankly, I think I could do just fine in Europe / South America generally speaking. In fact, I am interested in checking out South Spain. This is really a "IF LIGHTNING STRIKES" kind of trip for me.
But, IF I MEET A WOMAN that makes me question "here is a woman unlike the globs of women I have met over the last several years - perhaps my future wife, the mother of my children - then, how do you say to this woman - "Hey, it was great to meet and hang out over the last couple days, but my bus is taking off and I am going to a different city to take more applications?" This does not seem very deliberative or manly to me.
The woman I want is not weak, or stupid. She would not accept waiting in line happily.
An interesting issue to kick around here ...
So, I am SUPPOSE to go to Kiev, then Kharkov, then Lugansk, then Zap, then Dniper. Or at least, that is the plan. I have pretty damn high expectations now (or should I say, I feel no urge to compromise, or "get lucky). I do not care if I find a girlfriend or wife. Frankly, I think I could do just fine in Europe / South America generally speaking. In fact, I am interested in checking out South Spain. This is really a "IF LIGHTNING STRIKES" kind of trip for me.
One of my friends went to a woman's house for spaghetti; he never left.Wow! That must have been some spaghetti!!! ;D
Somehow Rivardo's idea o perfect woman reminds me of this dating agency video...
I think I may well go to the dance classes if I have too much time on my hands - that almost always does the trick.That prolly is your best chance to meet somebody real
An interesting issue to kick around here ...
. . .
But, IF I MEET A WOMAN that makes me question "here is a woman unlike the globs of women I have met over the last several years - perhaps my future wife, the mother of my children - then, how do you say to this woman - "Hey, it was great to meet and hang out over the last couple days, but my bus is taking off and I am going to a different city to take more applications?" This does not seem very deliberative or manly to me.
The woman I want is not weak, or stupid. She would not accept waiting in line happily. This would plant poison seeds. I have too much experience to not know the consequences to even the most rational and understandable situations - especially in the early days.
Alas, pulling the trigger too early, precludes all other possibilities. And, in this case we are talking 7 - 10 days before I would return to the one with home I have the most interest, and her me. Certainly, it helps that I have had NO communication with anyone before a personal meeting. There are no artificial expectations. Nevertheless ....
My reasoning? Ukraine is a bitch! THIS is no place to exercise compromises for the sake of filling up a social schedule.
-
After all this time, I am in fact in Kiev.
It is big and touristy, and after touring Eastern Europe for the last week, or so, I would prefer more authentic. I had a beer and the bar tender said there was a good house club, Crystal Palace. But, he said that there was a 70% I would get hurt because the boys like to drink and show they are strong. He said on Saturday night my chances go down to about 50% 50%. That was almost enough to make me go:)
But I am tired, and want to change gears ... besides I have Prague still ringing in my ears from last weekend.
I have a couple women I could beet from Elena's Models, perhaps. But, I have not put work in them, and am not particularly interested.
You'll see more eye candy in Odessa than Kyiv. I hated Kyiv. In Kyiv you have to go through an underground labrynth to cross almost every street.
Enjoying your perspective on things. Hope your trip gets better and better.
Seems a bit jaded to me , but I'm sure he'll pick up once Jack has him under his wing.
Just keep the reports coming, Tim - they're certainly "different."
I'm sorry! Please do not think I am being negative. I have already had a wonderful time. However, it is true, I do think there is hype and overly realistic expectations at work in most TRs. It is normal when you consider the viewpoint of the writer.
GUILT BY ASSOCIATION:Fortunately, I am not a guy that is dying to go on a date. Otherwise today would have been a disaster. LOL I spoke with two of the more attractive and older 20's on Elenas model site in Kiev today on Skype. The conversations were mirror images of each other, and both did not go well. How long are you here for? Where are you going?
To answer honestly, evidently throws up a big red flag. "I am looking forward to seeing your country. I have read much about it. I am curious to learn what city I find most interesting and beautiful. That will be the place I will spend the most time." TRANSLATION: I am going around Ukraine leveraging the prospects of a green card to every sexy young lady I can find. Of course, I did not put up much of a fight. "thank you for your time and consideration ... NEXT"
All is not lost! This is a big country, and time is my friend. I have made significant progress on my Russian today:) I think I have 100% more than before this day began.
yep, I get it. I will let the tide take me for a while, rather than paddle. I think anything I do before my little tour is taboo. Afterwards I will know much more - hell, I could even get "lucky."
BUT HERE IS A QUESTION: What is so bad and sinister in Ukraine that gives apparently ALL the motivation to leave the country, and hold it in such low regard? Colombian girls do not have it any better ... but they love their country and family and friends. They would greatly prefer to NOT leave.
What have you seen in your few days that make you think they do? Life in Ukraine as in Russia I presume can be a hard scrabble life but nothing to make ALL or most want to leave. They love their country very much, most of them and have no desire to leave. The hard scrabble life is a way of life that they are most familiar with. How it appears to you is of no consequence to them. Any women willing to hitch her wagon to a man for escape is a woman to be avoided anywhere.
Point well taken! Let's change this from a statement to a question ...
Above Kuna makes reference to the fact that an UW will not believe that an AM comes to her country because it would be a natural positive experience (like Spain, or France, for example). A Colombian woman certainly would believe this. I have seen and heard other things over the last few days (in Slovakia) that gave me this impression as well.
So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?
...where their' routes are.
Point well taken! Let's change this from a statement to a question ...
Above Kuna makes reference to the fact that an UW will not believe that an AM comes to her country because it would be a natural positive experience (like Spain, or France, for example). By comparison, a Colombian woman certainly would believe this, and would take it as a compliment. I have seen and heard other things over the last few days (in Slovakia) that gave me this impression as well.
So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?
So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?
Not my experience, but just my own viewpoint - maybe I just got luckier. I saw far more in Moscow. >:D ;D
Any particular reason you "hated" Kyiv? I can't remember how clearly you explained it in your own thread, unless it was simply "the girl."
Pardon? Where were you (seriously)? The only real "labyrinth" I saw at a street crossing was outside the main bus station. Even most of the metro stations seem to come up for air in a fairly logical way (apart from the one where I tried to get out into the mall at the Maidan, and ended up halfway up Kreschatyk, not knowing which way to turn!). All the other street crossings I saw were light-controlled - maybe we were just in different parts of the city? FWIW, I only saw one labyrinth in Odessa - opposite the main railway station. Moscow, on the other hand, does have a LOT!
Seems a bit jaded to me 8) , but I'm sure he'll pick up once Jack has him under his wing.
Just keep the reports coming, Tim - they're certainly "different."
You'll see more eye candy in Odessa than Kyiv. I hated Kyiv.
So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?
What have you seen in your few days that make you think they do? Life in Ukraine as in Russia I presume can be a hard scrabble life but nothing to make ALL or most want to leave. They love their country very much, most of them and have no desire to leave...A fairly small sample size, but 75% of Ukrainians in Kyiv post poll
A fairly small sample size, but 75% of Ukrainians in Kyiv post poll
would rather be somewhere else:
If you could live anywhere in the world, would you choose:
Ukraine 24.86%
Russia 2.16%
America 31.89%
Great Britain 9.73%
Another country 31.35%
I had an intersting short conversation in the US a few days ago at a coffee shop. The guy was Mexican with all the tattoos, etc and looked like a gang banger. We were chatting about women and when I mentioned Ukraine he stated that he knew several local Ukraine men and advised me to stay away from them. He said that they are all into criminal activity and are rather brutal. Funny coming from a guy that looked like he could handle nearly anyone.
When you have time you might enlighten us in some details on how you are able to get around from place to place without an interpreter
A fairly small sample size, but 75% of Ukrainians in Kyiv post poll
would rather be somewhere else:
If you could live anywhere in the world, would you choose:
Ukraine 24.86%
Russia 2.16%
America 31.89%
Great Britain 9.73%
Another country 31.35%
That night I held stares that were not friendly; big, nasty, scary guys, and they were all in groups. I realized this is a place not to be messed with ... a little caution please.
and they say the same thing:
- turn down the volume.
- What out for the police.
- Stay in a crowd.
- Be a pussy.
Interesting poll. I am curious about the demographics of the audience. Can you post the link to the poll?http://www.kievpost.net/votes/page/21/
Many people in the FSU underestimate their country and what is has to offer. It is part of the mindset. And as 99% of the non-FSU foreigners they meet are either hunting brides or doing business it will take a long time to change that.
Point well taken! Let's change this from a statement to a question ...
Above Kuna makes reference to the fact that an UW will not believe that an AM comes to her country because it would be a natural positive experience (like Spain, or France, for example). By comparison, a Colombian woman certainly would believe this, and would take it as a compliment. I have seen and heard other things over the last few days (in Slovakia) that gave me this impression as well.
So, the QUESTION is ... What is the current motivation level from women in Ukraine and Russia (to be fair, not from the upper class) to find a "way" to a different country?
Tim, the one best to answer that question would be Lily as she's the only one in here that I can think of that has left her country under her own steam. Everyone else is likely to sugar coat it.I'm not nearly as smart or as pretty as Lily but I'll share my insight on this with you.
Rivardco, if you encounter a woman whom you like but moving from the FSU poses a challenge, I suggest you continue to pursue her. It will take time, but you have time. A "challenge" woman is good.
CM show less ''conquering'' activities towards a woman. As one pretty single immigrant girl noted to me, ''Here, if you tell him no, he understands it as no and moves from you. A FSU guy would not take a no for an answer and will be persistent in getting to a yes from you''[/li][/list]
The opinions vary among women about leaving their country. And for those who do wish to emigrate, their reasons differ.Agree on this. The answers may vary from a woman to a woman.
Tim, the one best to answer that question would be Lily as she's the only one in here that I can think of that has left her country under her own steam. Everyone else is likely to sugar coat it.All in my life, including education, interests and jobs, was related to the West in any ways, but I did not seriously considered immigration, even after I got my U.S. degree. I still thought that I could be well off in Moscow, but the reality turned to be not as good as I planned before. A desire to find a man was the last drop in my intention to change my country. That means, if I could find a man in Moscow, I would probably think twice. But as soon as I was unbound, I moved, knowing that my chances are better if I will be in Canada for life, with or without a man.
Well, Belvis ... I am sure Gator intended to suggest a more noble effort of winning a woman's heart, rather than your conclusion that he suggest I punch a girl in the nose.:) Gator suggested the persistent action instead of lyrical observation.
Some women may also think just as Ed described.:D But basically you pretty much confirmed what I said. You did finally decide to leave Russia because of very few choices of available single men locally. Even though there were other factors besides that one, that was the straw that broke the camel's back :)
I will be honest with my prejudices and suppositions here. I do not have any sacred cows. Ukraine MAY BE Heaven or Hell, or both to different people. HOWEVER, my "spider senses" tell me that this country is structurally F$cked - like most deep Eastern European countries. The elites steel (and I mean HUGE amounts), and leave the citizens to fight for scraps. There are few smiles on people's faces here! Not socially scientific, but very telling
Comparatively, the government of the Dominican Republic is 100% more noble. This country has invested vasts amounts in infrastructure, public transportation, and especially education for the young. Hell, Colombia seems to have a leg-up, because the middle class is growing and foreign investment is flooding in because of a much improved judiciary.
= So there is my prejudice. It is not firm =
Gonna meet a woman I met online tonight for diner. ( Just in case some of you were beginning to worry about me ). I expect her to be very suspicious of why I am here, and what I will be doing. Learning from yesterday, I will not lie - I will just NOT tell the truth:) I met her on Elenas Models. I have not found other sites to be particularly responsive, and I am tired of online BS.
It looks like I have a whopping 10-12 dates lined up through agencies! If one is to believe profiles, they are all remarkable women with English and no children. That is a pretty LIGHT wife-hunter schedule. But, increasingly, I do not want to meet many many women through agencies. I will take a couple shots at the women that appeal to me very much, and then be as careful with them as they will be with me. I assume I will meet other women along the way.
In another 2 weeks, I will have my sea legs, and be an old salt :)
:) Gator suggested the persistent action instead of lyrical observation.
:D But basically you pretty much confirmed what I said. You did finally decide to leave Russia because of very few choices of available single men locally. Even though there were other factors besides that one, that was the straw that broke the camel's back :)
Never put words in a woman's mouth.Doesn't it depend which head you're speaking with? ;D
Doesn't it depend which head you're speaking with? ;D:ROFL:
Is she pregnant again?Still - Late August.
Feeling naughty tonight?Nah, she did that a few months ago - apparently. :-\
I expect her to be very suspicious of why I am here, and what I will be doing.Tim - why are you there?
Gonna meet a woman I met online tonight for diner. ( Just in case some of you were beginning to worry about me ). I expect her to be very suspicious of why I am here, and what I will be doing. Learning from yesterday, I will not lie - I will just NOT tell the truth:) I met her on Elenas Models. I have not found other sites to be particularly responsive, and I am tired of online BS.
[size=78%]Quote from: rivardco on Today at 12:37:03 AM[/size]
I expect her to be very suspicious of why I am here, and what I will be doing.Tim - why are you there?
So, all this combined to join the ranks of the "wife-hunters" while I still can.Do you really want a wife?
Do you really want a wife?
I do believe that too few people are happily married in the LONG RUN, which is to say a very successful marriage is a rare thing, very much so! (I think 10 out of 100).
And, then there is "S", a young woman I met in Medellin quite be accident in March. We began to fall in L.... Here from the position of a 21 year old girl with few life experiences, and me as a 48 year old man with too much life experiences. I surprised me, frankly. BUT A 28 YEAR AGE GAP is more of a curse than a blessing - or at least equal. Importantly, in this particular case the relationship happened "honestly" - it was not ( is not ) a fabrication. Obviously, I have grave reservations. ( I should note that I continue to talk to her several times a day)
While 21 is young, is there really that big a difference between a 21 year old and a 28 year old?
I think it is because true love is rare. I didn't actually realize this, until I started reading this forum.
Here in these places, the outcome IS ALMOST ENTIRELY IN MY HANDS ( or yours).
These girls have a depth and intelligence that I have not seen anywhere else.
So I met a Dave at 8:00 PM and was supposed to meet "I" at 9:00 PM. Had two beers and showed up at 9 till. I waited until 5 after, and was ready to say let's party / chicks suck RAAAAA! And, then, 'I said, let me check one more time. And then I saw a woman MUCH MORE BEAUTIFUL AND TENDER than her photos would suggest.
I prematurely held her and said, "Baby, I was waiting for 15 minutes, but I am happy to meet you". I got the cold Russian thing at first. Then, she said ... I want to know you better. So ... Four hours later, and some surgical dialogue; I have to say, NICE. VERY NICE! I enjoyed the process. I enjoyed that she surprised me with questions and critical evaluation. I especially enjoyed the subject matter. Early in the evening, I said "give me your hands" She said why? I said, "things like this can be read like a book. We already know we like each other. I want to know how much. Give me your hands now." And, she did.
I just put her in a taxi and called to make sure she got home OK. She will meet me tomorrow after work without delay. And, IF I ONLY MET HER I would be happy with this trip. Does that mean I am easy? I think not. These girls have a depth and intelligence that I have not seen anywhere else.
Do you want to know more about this relationship, or any other I might have? It depends 90% on ME, not the environment, or the woman. Here in these places, the outcome IS ALMOST ENTIRELY IN MY HANDS ( or yours).
It is somewhat gluttonous to go on a "tour" that is full of these experiences. If I do not keep my wits about me, this could do me no good.
Oh boy........
Good luck Tim, hopefully a good night's sleep will bring you down to where your feet touch the ground.
Oh no. This girl is not for me! I just enjoyed our time together ...
- she is agnostic
- she does not want to have children
- and, I really do not know anything about her (obviously)
What I do know is this
- she is very beautiful
- she is very intelligent
- she has a refined manner
- and she speaks her mind very directly
So, I was able to have a rather intelligent / frank discussion ... I got farther in 30 minutes than I would have gotten with a Colombian woman in 5 weeks, in terms of developing an understanding (that is not an exaggeration). If I was excited, it was not this woman specifically, but an affirmation about my hopes of Eastern European women generally. Last night reminded me of my first date with "O" - the woman that started all this for me 4 years ago - THAT is a good sign.
And, the other point, that is rather unlike the USA, is much of this IS WHAT YOU make it.
That is all.
Bro, you recently had a bad first experience in Ukraine and, as such, are somewhat jaded at this time because of what you dealt with.
Idealizing these women and treating them like princesses is the road to hell. Please write that down on a napkin or something. They're just the same as all other women, except it's arguable that they are superior dissimulators and ballroom dancers. :P
You are touching now the "soul" of FSU women. I am absolutely not the guy who puts a woman on a pedestal (just a little if she really desserves).Well said Pat.
I have found them more intelligent than in my coutry, and also in many case i have be sensitive to this refined manner. If you are easy with women you can open quiclky a special pipe that you usually hardly find in others places : a special male/female way to be, way to speak, way to stand, way to to express without speaking, something classy, something sweet but directly connected with testosterone also.
When you have a high sensitivity those women can provide you a high emotionnal flight.
Welcome in FSU.
You're older than me and have a lot of life experiences and wisdom, but please don't drink the Kool Aid. It's laced with borsch and probably smetlana.This is either how the Ukrainians say it, or what you get when you mix sour cream (сметана) with Svetlana :P .
To the OP. Why do I get the impression that the woman you're looking to spend the rest of your life with doesn't exist?
BecauseI, probably more than anyone on this forum, understand what you're going through. I mean I have spent the last 8 years in Russia and I'm about your age. Nevertheless, I fear that you won't give anyone the real justice they deserve because of this fact not to mention your time constraints.
I have had too much fun living as a bachelor, and it probably shows.
I am more picky than any man rightly deserves to beNo doubt, and I feel your pain. We want what we want but, I still can't help thinking that you've already met this lady, but something keeps telling you that an even more perfect one is still out there. Maybe, maybe not, but keep thinking this and you'll end up somewhere you really don't want to be. And that is "I should have..." land.
I am patient and have taken my time - much more time than most.No, you just like the variety of young attractive women, I get it. Plus freedom is a tough thing for certain men to let go of, especially when you're knee deep in young attractive women.
I am not manipulated by physical beauty.Yeah, me neither :rolleyes: . I mean how can one be manipulated by beauty in a place where it's so readily available to you. Again, I completely understand.
And, I am Lazy in developing relationships. For example, I should go buy an Ukrainian phone. But, when I do, the damn thing is going to ring all the time. Some guys want it to ring. I would rather place the call.Well, the first thing to figure out is yourself, so good for you.
But, let's not write off my romantic aspirations just yet. I deserve another couple weeks :)
You seem to think that you have plenty of time, or that time is on your side. I, however, disagree. Good luck.
This is either how the Ukrainians say it, or what you get when you mix sour cream (сметана) with Svetlana :P .funny, this is exactly what I thought when I saw "smetlana" :D
You seem fixated on the age of 28. Yes, the age lends itself better to conceiving children; however, I get the impression that such is not your primary reason for setting your sights at 28.
Oh no. This girl is not for me! I just enjoyed our time together ...
- she is agnostic
- she does not want to have children
- she is not close with her parents and sister. Hmmm
- and, I really do not know anything about her (obviously)
I hope you've written down the things you are looking for in a new life (and yes, a better life) because I suspect you'll have times during your trip where you will lose perspective and will need to remind yourself.
If you felt great about meeting this lady (even though you've been able to "stay rational") it's possible after two, three or thirty of these meetings you'll be absolutely bamboozled.
I had a list and I had to refer back to it on occasion because it gets confusing (not because I met many, but I met two really lovely girls - and married one)... but your list can be your stake in the ground... somewhere to come back to that reminds you of what you were REALLY looking for.
The list I had wasn't really about the qualities I was looking for in a girl - but rather the things I was seeking in myself AND a future relationship.
Your list may refer to her qualities, but the something I tried to consider was "How she would be with me", and then "How we would be together".
Before you take your trip I suggest that you develop a comprehensive set of criteria about what you want in a woman. Ignore physical features. The list should be long and detailed. A criterion should not be "compatible personality" and instead break this down into various aspects of personality. Consider all criteria that are important to your long and short-term happiness.
And there is "S" from Colombia, my young love, on my SKYPE being consistent day and night, showing me constant attention.
Bro, you recently had a bad first experience in Ukraine and, as such, are somewhat jaded at this time because of what you dealt with.
While I agree not to put these women on a pedestal, I do think you're missing the point. And that point is this...
Well said Pat.
This is either how the Ukrainians say it, or what you get when you mix sour cream (сметана) with Svetlana :P .
Anyhow, I appreciate your effort to learn the language.
Hm, maybe I am jaded. Da, nyet, ya ne znayu.
This is the distilled version of what I'm trying to say: Familiarity doesn't breed contempt, it IS contempt. We enshrine FSUW because they are unfamiliar and novel, and we have contempt for local women because they are familiar. Then when the superiority and uniqueness of FSUW is questioned, we employ the "Russian soul" argument. I argue that yes, FSUW have different cultural traits and different languages, but they are essentially the same as all other women. Human nature is universal. I like FSUW, too, but at the end of the day, I have not seen anything to indicate that they are any worse or better than, say, a French woman or an Italian woman. Now, if a man has a fetish for foreign women, then more power to him. But it is blinkered selectivity to take an encounter with a small sample of FSUW, either good or bad, and ascribe negative or positive traits to ALL FSUW. Judge FSUW as individuals, not as a group.
In the main, I hope Tim has a great trip and I'm sure he will. :)
Huge improvement! Before you said RW were weird.(http://s4.rimg.info/df87e9234f6212808de33da325ad4769.gif) (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-473070375.html)
. This mentality is neither good nor bad but simply is.
Huge improvement! Before you said RW were weird.(http://s4.rimg.info/df87e9234f6212808de33da325ad4769.gif) (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-473070375.html)
Didn't you write a month or so ago that after years in Colombia you determined all women there were rotten?
I will leave Kiev today. I never prefer Capital cities, and this experience did nothing to change that position. The last 5 days allowed me to catch up on work and rest.
I have been in a couple apartments, restaurants, churches, small food stores ect... I have met a couple girls. I have had a maid come to my apartment to take my laundry. Admittedly, I have had limited experience. But, the service seems to be on the low side. There is a weight on most people here and you can see it in their eyes. Quality of life in the center of the city would be hard to tolerate for longer than a week, or two.
===
I would like to take a train from somewhere in Ukraine to Vienna for my return flight on the 12th of June. Any comments from those who know?Start now, it'll prolly take that long to cross all the
I will leave Kiev today. I never prefer Capital cities, and this experience did nothing to change that position. The last 5 days allowed me to catch up on work and rest.
I have been in a couple apartments, restaurants, churches, small food stores ect... I have met a couple girls. I have had a maid come to my apartment to take my laundry. Admittedly, I have had limited experience. But, the service seems to be on the low side. There is a weight on most people here and you can see it in their eyes. Quality of life in the center of the city would be hard to tolerate for longer than a week, or two.
Is there not another area of the city where the normal, middle / upper class (non criminal) element live - or is this it?
I have 1 (one) agency meeting in Kharkov; 4 (four) in Poltava. I will be in those cities for 6 days.
===
This sounds a little much for a first response ... opinions?
"Timothy Hello )) wow …. you in Ukraine?? and how to you first impression??
In what city you woke up this morning?) probably Sevastopol??
I'm lonely, beautiful both externally and internally girl who lives in Ukraine. Timothy, if you are kind, intelligent and looking for true love a man, then write me back and you will not be disappointed! I want to give my heart is in good hands. I have a lot to offer and if you're interested, let's be friends and then maybe between us break out the fire of love. Timothy write me, I'll be waiting!
Loving lady Julia"
This sounds a little much for a first response ... opinions?...
Rivardco,+1
This differs from my correspondence with RW. Not one RW ever told me how beautiful she was. "Fire of love" is a cute expression but too early - you should respond that your loins are already on fire. Also, "lonely" is a turnoff. NEXT!
Agree with GQ on Point 2. At least delete her name.
It sort of reminds me of a FART. Think about how few molecules of fart that exist, yet stink up a room.It depends on the TYPE of molecules, not their number ;D:
Why are stinky farts generally warmer and quieter than regular farts?http://www.heptune.com/farts.html
Most fart gas comes from swallowed air and consists largely of nitrogen and carbon dioxide, the oxygen having been absorbed by the time it reaches the anal opening. These gases are odorless, although they often pick up other (and more odiferous) components on the way through the bowel. They emerge from the anus in fairly large bubbles at body temperature. A person can often achieve a good sound with these voluminous farts, but they are commonly (but not always!) mundane with respect to odor, and don't feel particularly warm.
Another major source of fart gas is bacterial action. Bacterial fermentation and digestion processes produce heat as a byproduct as well as various pungent gases. The resulting bubbles of gas tend to be small, hot, and concentrated with stinky bacterial metabolic products. These emerge as the notorious, warm, SBD (Silent-But-Deadly), often in amounts too small to produce a good sound, but excelling in stench.
Sandro, Should you be known henceforth as Fartman? Or simply Flatulence if Fartman is already taken.
Sandro, You really need a wife. ;D You could keep her entertained 24/7.
I can tell there are teams here, and I am on the one that has "MONEY" tattooed to the forehead. Not the best way to make introductions / contacts in a new city. But, nothing else can be expected, and how could you get a foothold without paying a little tuition?you are starting to "get it", Tim ;)
This is the cost of wanting to see much in a short period and not writing to any particular people in advance
Tim,
A few years ago here a mate of mine would want to go from one pub/club to the next because he wasn't having a good time... He was always looking for something so he kept moving CONSTANTLY. It use to p!ss me off because the rest of us would be having a ball and he'd start moaning about it being boring... or there would be something or someone he didn't like.
Anyway, years later all of my mates (except for a few) are married, most with kids... and Brian is still doing loops of pubs and no doubt still complaining that he wasn't having a good time. It's sad because he has missed out on so much...
Kharkov exceeded my expectations GREATLY.
I will, however, go to Poltava on Monday and stay for - when ever. There is a higher frequency of English here than in South America. As it turns out, I am just not a "tour kinda guy". No more bla bla bla.
I will set up shop here until June 12. I will cancel all my BS in other cities.
I do very well here on my own (no disrespect to anyone). AND, for those reading this post understand that I am accustomed to strange and dangerous places! If you are not a seasoned traveler, there is nothing wrong with using services.
Yeah, beautiful women are everywhere here!!! Fortunately, I am somewhat immune to that. The rest of the American guys are walking around shell shocked LOL All you have to do is be normal, nice - and be know yourself, be selective. It will take me just a little time to write something comprehensive and intelligent on the women here
Especially, if you want to meet women naturally?
Yet I still wonder if you can indeed be "sure" in your convictions when the time comes to pull the trigger. IOW, I'm still left not totally convinced of your bottom line; do you really know what you want? and/or, do you really want it? (not that my opinion matters in the big picture).
Today, I accepted the agencies BEST recommendation for me. It was a blind date. I did not even see the photos. She was beautiful, lovely, smart, elegant - Cameron Diez; but more attractive. The only problem was she is a blond version of my X. She is EXACTLY the opposite of what I seek! She was wearing $600 Prada Sun Glasses. She was divorced to a well connected businessman in town. After 30 minutes (it was nice, but painful), I said let's be honest ... I am not the man for you.
wise words, Phil :)
As we would yell to a batter who took a close pitch for a called ball, "good eye" Tim.
Such women are there. Her ex-husband has grown weary of her now that she is 30, and with his wealth he can easily find a 21-yo version. They have already been trained by wealthy UM, and changing them is probably not an easy task.
Many of the blonds in Ukraine are dyed (no biggey for me)
Hi Vinny,
I am interested about your experience in Poltava as I have been there myself and did not get the same sense of it being a scam central. I believe it is possible it could be "scam central". I do maintain relationships with friends there and do believe that there are scam processes and cultures in FSU, but for some reason did not get the same impression as you about Poltava. I do get the impression that it is being promoted heavily like Nikolaev, which clearly is a sign of potential for scams--by definition.
Scam Central - Well, you go in 30 bucks to call. But, after that what is the scam?
Agencies are not bad; and they can be very good. It depends on the man and the woman.
While I had only used an agency once (reputable by many), I got similar feeling. Where else can you go, check out a few photos, pick out one girl for date, and within half hour you have date with a girl who has no idea of anything about you, not even a pic!!!!.......of course there was the introduction fee, it was $40 per......
I used an agency there once and got the distinct impression that there was no sincerity from either the agency or the ladies I met and that they were simply just a business model to extract cash from foreigners. I was with a guy from New York and he used a different agency he had exactly the same impression.
In the overall scheme of things $30 is of course ‘nothing’ but if one is meeting ladies who look nothing like their photos and who have no interest in meeting you, I believe $0 is too expensive. In my situation described above it wasn’t just $30, it was in taxi costs from Kharkov to Poltava and back, hotel costs in Poltava combined with the fact that I kept my apartment in Kharkov. $30 quickly becomes more like $100 and that’s before you start to evaluate wasted time.
I think you are wrong, there are ‘good’ agencies and ‘bad’ agencies period. It doesn’t matter how good a man is, if he is meeting a lady who has no interest in him, no interest in leaving her country etc its a waste of time and money.
I have always wondered about that...I too thought it was the hard life and maybe incliment weather that led to this. To me, the ladies I know at home seem more attractive starting in late 30's to 40's than in FSU, just have to find one without drama between the ears!!! Biggest difference I see between the younger girls of both areas is body style, light color eyes and 'street smart'....both are attractive facially.
A comment on aging...
MANY women there don't age well... and I can tell you there are many that emigrate here who don't age well either. I used to think it was about the poor quality food or the hard life there but my wife has friends who remain beautiful into their 40's - BECAUSE they care and work to maintain their appearances.
Likewise the improved diet options here and variety of food means the women that emigrate should find it easier to avoid so much potato, oil and mayonnaise... but they don't choose to eat well.
Both girls are very attractive... the second is smoldering IMO... but you look a little apprehensive... maybe scared?
Kidding... but you do have an amusing expression on your face.
Poltava a scam or not? I will tell you in a couple days. BUT, the only people that can be scammed are those with little street sense. I mean we all take a flier on coming here in the first place. What's 50 bucks in the over all scheme of things? A taxi? I have had 3 agency meeting. I MIGHT have 5 - 10 more by the time it is over. (Hell! I spent half that amount for lunch and booze).
...
BTW, I think the word 'beautiful' is tossed around by many wayyyyyyyy to much.
If a woman is not moved to fight for me - HARD ... I will not notice her seriously.
...
If a woman is not moved to fight for me - HARD ... I will not notice her seriously.
A comment on aging...
MANY women there don't age well... and I can tell you there are many that emigrate here who don't age well either. I used to think it was about the poor quality food or the hard life there but my wife has friends who remain beautiful into their 40's - BECAUSE they care and work to maintain their appearances.
Likewise the improved diet options here and variety of food means the women that emigrate should find it easier to avoid so much potato, oil and mayonnaise... but they don't choose to eat well.
BTW - anybody with worthy good information on Poltava TELL ME. Here or on PM. I don't want to waste any time with half truths!Suprising to me.....are you just trying to mix in with the kin-folk? Maybe to check out the pastures? :o Maybe it is just you have the time...to take your time.....
I am leaving by train tomorrow.
BTW, I think the word 'beautiful' is tossed around by many wayyyyyyyy to much.
Why yes, yes, yes it is. It seems the FSU is often played up as the Land of Endless Tens. Of course the notion is subjective but really the overwhelmingly vast majority of women (or men), here, there, everywhere are "average" with a little leaning toward either opposing end of the curve. There are a few who fall off the bell proper into beautiful or butt rippin' fugly but those are the exceptions....
Would you mind elaborating? It's interesting because at first glance, the meaning would turn a sharp 180 from (hundreds of) thousands of years of evolution - from women being the "pursued" (until they catch us that is) into being the active competitors doing the chasing.
Why would she fight for you prior to your having noticed her seriously? Or do you mean a specific facet of her showing genuine interest? What exactly?
So you have gotton over the 'RW turn my brain into poop' ? ;D
SORRY, poor word choice. There is a point in which a connection is made, or not. If, after that, a woman falters, or I sense that I am not as important to her as she is to me ( I mean, in light that I have traveled half way around the world, have expressed correct interest, and am otherwise worthy), then I will, if there is not a good reason, say NEXT. God made alot of possibilities. I doubt I will forget this. I doubt that I will loose my mind and judgement.
We will see.
I was once met at Kharkov airport by a terp who also did meeting and greeting and escorted foreign men to their apartments. She was around 5’ 11, very slim and dressed immaculately in a suit and chatted non stop to me in fluent English during our taxi ride. Most healthy straight men would have had similar thoughts flashing through their minds …….It's a small world, Vinn! ;)
Later that evening it is fair to say I was dumbstruck to learn that the said lady was aged just 15!!!! ‘Welcome to Ukraine’ as they say.
It’s good to see that Dasha’s looks haven’t declined with age and at least now all such thoughts are legal.
accepted that they may be killing 2 birds with 1 stone i.e. working another angle.
The rest of the group has traveled to Lugansk, and I took a train to Poltava.I didn't realise that you were there with "The Group". What group is that?
I didn't realise that you were there with "The Group". What group is that?
Please let sleeping dogs lie.
It is odd that 85% of your description of her is about her physical beauty. What else do you know?
BTW - anybody with worthy good information on Poltava TELL ME. Here or on PM. I don't want to waste any time with half truths!
I am leaving by train tomorrow.
seriously.
==== The MOB Agency Industry ====
Well, there is more than meets the eye here, and none of it is particularly good.
On Friday, I found myself in a 2nd rate office pit (by Ukrainian standards, surrounded by 10 computers and translators, busy writing letters for women. Hmmmm, where is fat Yuri. Or, is THIS fat Yuri? Then, I used my contacts, and contacts of contacts, to meet with 3 agency owners and managers in Poltava. It turns out that this little, nice city is a hot bed for MOB stuff.
I hear the same names and complaints and angles from everybody - this industry is a soap-opera. And, make NO mistake, the average MOB client is not respected by the agency owners / managers. Do you think they should be? I have heard every story under the sun about foreign women and gringos, so I was not surprised. Suffice to say, that REGARDLESS of your particular situation, an agency girl / or, perhaps most girls from this country, are and should be more than a little leery of a foreigner's intentions.
Those tours are really the kiss of death because they create such a feeding frenzy mentality within the local service providers. When a group of 10 guys comes to town and each guy has 10 "dates" with translator (they prefer to have a translator for the first meeting whether it is necessary, or not), that is 3 - 4 THOUSAND DOLLARS. A huge chuck of money for small Ukrainian company.
Always, only a handful of ladies have the magic pictures to stimulate foreigners to travel on her account. What do you think a lady thinks who has received 3 - 5 men to travel to the middle of no-where basically for her?
And, then there is financial incentives that are not in the client's interest. Pay the pretty girl some money to show up and be nice. Smooze the client with a recommendation for a special recommendation for one more meeting. There is an endless set of scenarios where the client is at a disadvantage.
And, then there are the portals - the large web sites - that charge a middle man fee and want to keep the hood on the client. Say AFA has a client that is scheduled to meet 20 girls in two or three cities (and they make a little cut on everything), how happy are they going to be if a guy says I like number 3, please cancel the remainder? FURIOUS. They will tell you, "This is BAD. It is not fair to the woman who has agreed to meet you, and who now is dreaming of meeting you with an open heart, and will cry for 2 months upon hearing the news that the man in the photo has changed his mind. She is so delicate, and was so hopeful! Although she has grown up in Ukraine, I do not know if she can survive this!"
There is only one solution to this - TIME.
I have been fun-loving and "nice" since I have been in Ukraine - very respectful and gentle. OK, I get it! Most business people are out to screw me. I went to drop off my laundry today. If I was not in the shoe store to buy shows, nobody could help me. If I was not in the telephone store to buy telephones, nobody could help me. I find the laundry counter and the lady makes a special price for me - a small bag of laundry 540 Hryvnia (70 dollars) OKAY GIVE ME BACK MYFUCKIN CLOTHS
I find the laundry counter and the lady makes a special price for me - a small bag of laundry 540 Hryvnia (70 dollars) OKAY GIVE ME BACK MYFUCKIN CLOTHS
AND just when I become competent at Spanish and am able to climb the social ladder there, I come to Ukraine?!?!? There is something wrong with all of us.
A village girl I met used to live in Poltava. After she graduated from university she translated for MOB socials. She told me two things she did not like about the foreign men. First, she did not like how they thought all Ukrainian women were poor and needed rescuing.
LOL,
Sorry to hear, but honestly man you've been bopping around the world for how long now?
You've got to chock this one up as your own fault for not asking the price before you give them your clothes...
Don't ask......can be a surprise!
...Make sure you are a little more on your toes next time.
I find the laundry counter and the lady makes a special price for me - a small bag of laundry 540 Hryvnia (70 dollars) OKAY GIVE ME BACK MYFUCKIN CLOTHS
A village girl I met used to live in Poltava. After she graduated from university she translated for MOB socials. She told me two things she did not like about the foreign men. First, she did not like how they thought all Ukrainian women were poor and needed rescuing. Second, she thought it was absurd to see huge age gaps. (But generally, there was a taint associated with being one of the tour guys.) Anyway, it was like talking to a magician's assistant, because the veil was pulled back.Scotty, so you too went to Ukaine with the same "unnamed" tour group?
You have been there about a fortnight now, I guess, and reached the same conclusion(s) that I did--being viewed as a "tourist" adversely affects your chances of finding sincere women and time starts working against you.
My trip was only 16 days, and you have a LOT more time. I hope you can use time to your advantage and make some lasting friendships and maybe find a special lady.
I see a business visa for Ukraine in your future...after your exfiltration from Ukraine, of course.
Scotty, so you too went to Ukaine with the same "unnamed" tour group?
I am wondering if you have had any luck in meeting women in stores, restraints, waitresses, etc. that have any interest in dating you?
In order to avoid this sort of thing, I am going to try a similar approach on my trip this summer. The difference is that instead of having a G/F at my side, I plan to find a interpreter/guide that will take care of any business transactions and clearly be expected to operate in my best interests. She could also accompany me to any social events so that I am not uncomfortable or taken advantage of. She might even have local friends to introduce me to for dates, etc.
In my previous experiences in Ukraine, families are very friendly and once in their homes they are very curious about me and America and have questions that can last for hours.
I am not sure Tim is into S&M. ;)
I think I would be tempted to interrupt a question that was lasting more than an hour and request that they get to the point more quickly. You're too polite Doug. :o
Scotty, so you too went to Ukaine with the same "unnamed" tour group?
You didn't get the point, Noel........ :popcorn:
I did not go on any tours in Ukraine, nor did I use agencies. I employed the services of Jack Bragg and his associate Val for apartments, travel arrangements, etc. I think very highly of Jack and Val. Both of them are trustworthy in my book.
Quote from: Eduard on Today at 03:01:02 PM (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14515.msg299485#msg299485)Scotty, so you too went to Ukaine with the same "unnamed" tour group?You didn't get the point, Noel........ :popcorn:
Doesn't now anyway. He has been appropriately chastised by Dan!!!!
Years ago a RWD committee of men and women wrote a set of guidelines for men's behavior when dating FSUW. Daveman surveyed a number of FSUW who had dated foreign men . The guidelines total a few pages yet can be summarized in one word, respect.
The guidelines are here:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=24 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=24)
And, here is something very very powerful that I am only beginning to fully understand: Depending on who you are, an AM has the ability to design a prosperous, happy life using an expanded set of choices that is simply NOT available to 98% of the people in Ukraine. That makes a decent, hard working, honest, family guy very very attractive - more than physical and true wealth.Umm, it seems the american citizenship makes a man "decent, hard working, honest, family guy" :). Don't overestimate the ability to design a prosperous, happy life in USA. Prosperous existence - the most likely to be no problem, but the definition of the happy life can be quite different in FSUW mind. In other respects I completely agree, you know now how to look very attractive for FSUW.
Umm, it seems the american citizenship makes a man "decent, hard working, honest, family guy" . Don't overestimate the ability to design a prosperous, happy life in USA. Prosperous existence - the most likely to be no problem, but the definition of the happy life can be quite different in FSUW mind.
What do you know that you are not saying?
And, I don't think American Citizenship is the key. Personally, I would not have the sole intention of bringing a woman back to the USA. That is NO "Home Field Advantage" - not by a mile. This place is nice enough for 4 months?!?! I love the Dominican Republic, and am very familiar there. A couple months - YEARS ( LOL ) - of trust building ... anything is possible. BUT, I do not think it is easy for a 30 year old woman with friends and family to just turn a switch and live - HAPPILY - in the USA.
Another example is female attention. Let's face it! In what planet does an attractive woman show up for a "date" / "interview" as if they are a seeking a job?!?!? It reverses the power equation of dating; ahhh, but is it real? I could not help to notice that an attractive woman that was willing to meet me was also willing to meet 4 OTHER MEN ON THE SAME DAY. I don't object to the woman having choices - que es la vida. But, all 4 men are staggeringly different - different ages, different looks, different personalities and likes. What is this woman seeking, really?
I could not help to notice that an attractive woman that was willing to meet me was also willing to meet 4 OTHER MEN ON THE SAME DAY. I don't object to the woman having choices - que es la vida. What is this woman seeking, really?
What do you seek? ;) Are all your dates have same age, similar look and personalities? Is it really that strange to see women to use same logic as men?
But, all 4 men are staggeringly different - different ages, different looks, different personalities and likes.
It is a near waste of time to meet women who speak near zero English
I wish you could see the view outside my 4th story flat, tree tops with Gold Church Steeples two blocks away.Give us a photo, then ;D.
Tim, it seems that you prefer to have a long line of beauties who can meet only you. If they fail to meet your criteria, they must return to their dismal flat and wait for the phone to ring? Such is egotistical. BTW, FSUW do not like egotistical. Almost as bad as "greedy."
Starting to miss Pandora internet radio and Netflix
ANY IDEAS / ALTERNATIVES?
Well, I am sad / happy to admit that I have been in knots over this for 3 days. I did not believe I could feel this way anymore.
I just had another day with her, but on this day we had "the talk" and everything turns out to be perfect - she was feeling everything that I was, maybe more so. She was sincere, expressive, and adamant. She is a good communicator I see now. Within 30 minutes we re-framed our relationship from the friendly tentative to something with much more gravity. We now have a more candid and mature understanding of things. I see now in real life what I had hoped I would see - she is a very very good woman. She makes me want to become a better man.
I came DAMN CLOSE to acting impulsively (I was only coaching myself to be patient) - and I am very very very very happy I did not.
Now, we will determine very naturally, respectfully; and, yes SLOWLY, what will become of us. But, that's fine for me. I feel very lucky to have a real chance with her.
:clapping: Glad that everything seems to be going in the right direction!!!!!
She makes me want to become a better man.
Starting to miss Pandora internet radio and Netflix
ANY IDEAS / ALTERNATIVES?
...You know what?!?!? All posts comments and observations here tend to "OVER THINK" everything BIG TIME. There is no right way, or wrong way. You cannot gauge and measure your way into a successful relationship - we all know better than that! And, by the way, the value of marriage is itself over estimated here. Marriage is GREAT when it works! But, there are just as many horror stories as successes. You have to be a well adjusted, unselfish human being to be a good spouse. Too much consumerism is a surefire sign of selfishness, and that is 99% of the MOB narrative...
Clear thoughts, very helpful reflections to anybody who is going to make a trip for FSUW trophy.
I dare to hope to see here the observations on differences between Colombians and FSUW.
I've got that Colombians were great, so why to turn to FSUW?
I've got that Colombians were great, so why to turn to FSUW?
The biggest challenge is building familiarity and trust NATURALLY after you have taken the chance to travel around the world to see "what if." The tick of the clock and "natural" are in absolute conflict for most guys. For me, relaxing and balancing the mind has been very helpful. I am fortunate! I can work here on the Internet (client correspondence, conference calls, ect...) So, I just as easy can say: "I can not see you today, I have to work", as the women.
One last note. After you have gone through enough beauties to satisfy one's male curiosity. And, after you realize that there is no perfect woman. And, after you truly want someone to grow a real human relationship with ... then, surprisingly, MANY MANY woman are ideal and suitable matches worthy - more than worthy - of time and care. I remember Blues Fairy commenting on what she told her husband to be upon leaving him after their first meeting:"It is in your hands." At the time that struck me as interesting. Now it strikes me as the simple truth of things.
- Write to some women before you come. It is best to have some warm possibilities - even if they turn into a waste of time.
Starting to miss Pandora internet radio and Netflix
ANY IDEAS / ALTERNATIVES?
- the costs of living are not as cheap as you would imagine for a 1st world life in Ukraine.
In Russia, it would certainly be more expensive to get a comparable lifestyle than what it would cost in North America. If you want to live like a local, however, it can be cheaper, though it might involve growing some potatoes if you want to live really cheaply ;D
But from potatoes you can make excellent Vodka. LOL
The vodka made in Norway is based on potatoes and I remember when I said so to the uncle of my ex-wife in Russia, he shaked his head and said real vodka should be made of grains. Am no expert in this, but no vodka taste as good as Stolichnaya though.
That is the general consensus of the vodka aficionados I know. I can't tell and am partial to bourbon myself ;D
The best vodka I have had was made with soybeans. It was called "3". Supposedly distilled 3 times
That rings a bell my old friend. Didn't we discuss this thing before, about the soybean vodka I mean. I still hold the same view on soy as before, it's toxic, especially for men which it will make into sissys as it has estrogen properties. But.... enjoy... hehe
You mean soy vodka will expand my manboobs? :DMale gynaecomastia :D? Reminds me of something from a LONG time ago: http://www.floriani.it/VISTER-eng.htm#ODD ;).
Male gynaecomastia :D? Reminds me of something from a LONG time ago: http://www.floriani.it/VISTER-eng.htm#ODD ;).
Did any of those you asked previous ever admit it to you?The Vitamin B12 thing? I didn't ask, that would have been awkward, to say the least - some considered me a potential spy since I reported directly to the local US boss 8).
maybe from a perspective of a foreigner who is a natural "mark" for those women who make a living off the visitors from the West. ML if you became fluent in Russian and lived there for a few years meeting women who don't "hang out" at popular night clubs trying to hook the next mark, I'm sure you would have a different opinion. They have a wonderful sense of humor in Odessa specific to that city only (most famous Soviet time comedians came from Odessa) and a zest for life. Sure there are plenty of criminals and dishonest people but that's why not being an obvious "mark" is important. You have to be able to blend in and meet normal women who work hard, spend time at home with family or friends on weekends and lead a humble but wholesome lifestyle. This is how the women from Odessa that I know are: a lot of fun, very loyal to their husbands (for life) great mothers and wives.
Once you stop being a "Russian bride" hunter you see things differently. I'd say that Kiev is probably the toughest place for dating especially if you are looking for a very attractive woman. If you are stationed in Odessa you can also meet women from Moldova which is only about an hour drive away. Lots of beautiful women there. Western Ukraine is a good place to look as well. If you must look in Ukraine, I'd probably focus on the Western part if I were you.
But as anywhere you must be very careful who you decide to get serious with. Many women can be very manipulative, they know exactly what to say to push the right buttons and get you to do what they want you to do. I know that you have an eye for really beautiful ones and they can be the most dangerous... Not going to be easy to figure out with the language barrier in the way. So you really have to rely on your 6th sense, Tim. What you see is not always what you get. Really do try to listen to what your subconscious mind is telling you. If it senses something's not right and you are feeling uncomfortable about something do not dismiss it. It's going to be your best and the most reliable indicator of what's what and who's who.
Many women in Ukraine come from a very humble economic background, so their' basic survival instinct is very strong and dominant. Some will do or say anything to get ahead, use you then dump you to get to the next step up. This type of women can be found anywhere, off course, but because of Ukraine's economic conditions this kind of behavior is more common and accepted there than in countries with better economy. This applies to Moldova/Prednestrovye as well.
There is a whole other category of women to stay clear from. Women who come from dysfunctional family background and have psychological issues or psychiatric issues like BPD, Bipolar disorder and even Schizophrenia. They may be well represented among beautiful single women. This may be the reason they are single in the first place.
Like I said, your best friend is going to be your subconscious mind. If something doesn't feel quite right, do not dismiss it as a "cultural difference" thing.